I'm not so sure of the Journal aspect, but here you go time thinkers:

Some items in this show are, I dunno, Island-Born? I don't know if there is a term for an item that is created due to time-paradoxes, but for instance, the compass. Where did it come from? 2008ish Richard gave it to 2008ish Lock to give to 1954ish Richard, who showed it to oh 1959ish Lock-as-a-kid, Lock lets Richard down (by choosing knife) Richard keeps the compass, and---loop back to Richard gives it to Lock in 2008ish.

The compass has no start.

Along those lines, here's one to ponder:

My thought goes to Faraday and his journal. When we first see "If anything happens, Desmond will be my constant" in his journal. He seemed rather bemused by it at the time, looking off into the distance, smiling, pondering. So what if that was the first time Faraday read that?

What if the book is from Faraday's future? Given to Faraday by older Faraday with instructions to only read it as you go, so you don't know too much before it happens. Is he standing on his own shoulders? Just a thought to go along with the compass idea.

Hey Dr. Conrado!!!!!!!!!!!

But what if we assume that the flashbacks of Lockes childhood featuring Richard never happened to him but now they have and are mere extra memories. Similar to Faraday talking to Desmond never happened but now it has happened and is a memory in Desmonds head.

Otherwise you're right. It's a paradox.

Locke's flashbacks to his childhood always happened to him. Nothing has changed. We just witnessed the cause (telling Richard when he is born) to the effect (Richard is at John's birth). It still plays out the same every time. Nothing has changed. TPTB have stated that what we have seen is what happened, they are very clear that no one can go back and change things from what we have witnessed. Otherwise their is no consequences to anyone's actions. I know we are dealing with the idea of self-fulfilling prophecies here, but just think of it as watching the show since 1954. We are following Richard and company when a guy named Locke shows up and vanishes. Then we watch Richard try to test Locke through the years and one day he crashes on the island. It seems like destiny right? Wrong. I personally think that Locke is not "special." I believe that Locke is only special because he went back in time and said he was....thus making him special.

Come on season 6, the year of Aaron! :)

But what if we assume that the flashbacks of Lockes childhood featuring Richard never happened to him but now they have and are mere extra memories. Similar to Faraday talking to Desmond never happened but now it has happened and is a memory in Desmonds head.

Otherwise you're right. It's a paradox.


The way time is explained on Lost, this is impossible, because you can't change the past. It's basically like the chicken and the egg - there's no way of knowing which came first, because there is no first. It would be really interesting to find out more about the compass when you consider this.

Regarding Faraday talking to Desmond - it seems like he is trying to change the past, even though he has just said that you can't change the past. But really, that moment has always happened, too - it's just that neither of them know about it until the exact second it happens.

The compass looks like a time loop object, but Daniel's diary isn't in a time loop - it might though be modified by time travel.

The compass can't really be a time loop object of course, because it's still subject to the laws of entropy. If it was stuck in an infinite loop it would eventually rust away into dust, similar to the way video feedback recedes away into nothingness. The writers might not have thought about that though. Best explanation would be that Locke gives Richard his future compass, Richard eventually comes across the original version of the compass, gives Locke the younger version of the compass, and keeps the older version, so for some time he has two copies of the compass, each of a different age. Sort of like, if you make a loop in a string, for the section of string where there's a loop a cross section would look like two strings, but it's really just one string.

I'm not so sure of the Journal aspect, but here you go time thinkers:

Some items in this show are, I dunno, Island-Born? I don't know if there is a term for an item that is created due to time-paradoxes, but for instance, the compass.

There is somewhat of a name for it. It's called an oopart. It doesn't strictly meet the standards of what you're saying, but it's interesting to bring up. J. Wood talked about this phenomenon last season for 'Confirmed Dead'. Here's what he said:

"What's an oopart? It's an out-of-place artifact, and a quick Google search will get you more than you ever wanted to know about them. In short, ooparts are objects found in layers of sediment or other archaeological digs that just shouldn't be there because they're too advanced for that age....A favorite oopart is the Piri Reis map, an ancient map assembled from even more ancient sources by a Turkish admiral in the 16th century. The map shows the coast of Antarctica, sans ice. In 1949, a joint British-Swedish team took seismic soundings of Antarctica's Queen Maude Land, and it was discovered that under all that glacial ice, the lay of the land closely matched the map. However, Antarctica wasn't discovered until 1820, and the last time Queen Maude Land would have been ice-free was about 6,000 years ago. Furthermore, the way the map depicts the land suggests that the older maps Piri Reis used employed fairly accurate polar projection, meaning the cartographer knew the earth was round and had it scaled to within 50 miles of its circumference."

The compass looks like a time loop object, but Daniel's diary isn't in a time loop - it might though be modified by time travel.

The compass can't really be a time loop object of course, because it's still subject to the laws of entropy. If it was stuck in an infinite loop it would eventually rust away into dust, similar to the way video feedback recedes away into nothingness. The writers might not have thought about that though. Best explanation would be that Locke gives Richard his future compass, Richard eventually comes across the original version of the compass, gives Locke the younger version of the compass, and keeps the older version, so for some time he has two copies of the compass, each of a different age. Sort of like, if you make a loop in a string, for the section of string where there's a loop a cross section would look like two strings, but it's really just one string.

Also this theory would require an unlimited amount of compasses. Because every loop there must be another compass. That means there must be unlimited resources on erath to make compassess, which there aren't.

For me it's a paradox, till we get an explanation, which I dont think we will get. Like we are not getting any explanation on the numbers.

I'm probably being thick here, but what's the problem with the compass? Why does there need to be an infinite number of them? Isn't it just in Richard or Locke's possession (and not both) at any point in time you care to mention? I don't see a paradox :confused:

Yes, there is no problem with the Compass.

Their would also not be infinite copies of the compass, only two.

Assume the compass was pre - 1954, that way Richard would recognize it when given it by locke, he would know Locke was telling the truth because he already owned that same unique compass.

In 2005 Richard gave Locke his compass (#1) knowing that in 1954, the time of the next jump, he already owned that compass (#1).

The compass Richard gave John goes back to 1954 and becomes #2

Another way to put it

Compass #1 gets sent back in time from 2005 to 1954 and becomes #2.

Compass #1 & #2 exist in the same spacetime from 1954 to 2005

in 2005 Compass #1 goes back and becomes #2 in 1954

#2 stays in the present, compass #1 never exists past 2005.

Another way to put it

Compass #1 gets sent back in time from 2005 to 1954 and becomes #2.



Why compass #1 becomes compass #2 when going back? Compass 1 just goes back in time and stays compass 1, there is no duplicating machine which makes another copy at the moment of the jump.

Yes, there is no problem with the Compass.

Their would also not be infinite copies of the compass, only two.

Assume the compass was pre - 1954, that way Richard would recognize it when given it by locke, he would know Locke was telling the truth because he already owned that same unique compass.

In 2005 Richard gave Locke his compass (#1) knowing that in 1954, the time of the next jump, he already owned that compass (#1).

The compass Richard gave John goes back to 1954 and becomes #2

Another way to put it

Compass #1 gets sent back in time from 2005 to 1954 and becomes #2.

Compass #1 & #2 exist in the same spacetime from 1954 to 2005

in 2005 Compass #1 goes back and becomes #2 in 1954

#2 stays in the present, compass #1 never exists past 2005.

So what happens when Compass #2 gets to 2005 and goes back in time? Does it become Compass #3? I don't see any need for multiple compasses. Compass #1 gets sent back in time from 2005 to 1954. It stays Compass #1 until 2005, at which point it gets sent back in time again.

The trouble with this theory is that the compass continues to age along its own timeline. It isn't magically "youthened" at any point in this process. So it would eventually corrode and crumble into dust.

-AJF

Or Richard could have destroyed the compass Locke gave him after he failed the test or just threw it away and later in the future he finds the same exact one brand new for sale and he regains his faith and buys it to take back to the island.

Or Richard could have destroyed the compass Locke gave him after he failed the test or just threw it away and later in the future he finds the same exact one brand new for sale and he regains his faith and buys it to take back to the island.

Yeah, I thought about that. Maybe that's the reason young Locke doesn't ultimately choose the compass? Because it's not actually "already his" as Alpert asks? The test is flawed...

-AJF

So what happens when Compass #2 gets to 2005 and goes back in time? Does it become Compass #3? I don't see any need for multiple compasses. Compass #1 gets sent back in time from 2005 to 1954. It stays Compass #1 until 2005, at which point it gets sent back in time again.


-AJF

Compass #2 NEVER goes back in time.

Compass #1 always goes back and becomes the duplicate. compass #2 keeps going on and on, or is maybe destroyed at any time, it doesn't matter, because compass #1 is the one that goes back in time, it is the compass that becomes #2.




The trouble with this theory is that the compass continues to age along its own timeline. It isn't magically "youthened" at any point in this process. So it would eventually corrode and crumble into dust.



No, that is the problem with your theory, not mine.

Just say, for example, the compass was made in 1930.

1930_____________ 1954_________________ 2005
#1-----------------------------------------------------------------> #1 becomes #2
_________________#2----------------------------------------------------------------------->

As you can see, compass number 1 was made in 1930, Richard gives it to Locke in 2005, when Locke goes back the compass becomes a duplicate of the one that already existed at the time, hence #2. But #2 never goes back in time, we don't know what happened to it from the time John gave it to Richard.

Compass #1 ages from 1930 - 2005 - 65 years.
Compass #1 is 24 years old in 1954
Compass #1 does not exist past 65 years old, it goes back in time and becomes the duplicate compass, labeled #2
Compass #2 is already 65 years old in 1954.
Compass #2 will be 116 years old in 2005.

Their are going to be duplicates, because two compasses exist in 1954, exactly the same as the two #15 bunnies!

This is all assuming that John should give Richard that compass, because Richard already owns that same compass in 1954, would recognize it and know that John is telling the truth, which is the only reasonable scenario, the compass is unique, or has some unique etchings or scratches, if John had given him a random compass it wouldn't have mattered.
100%
Or Richard could have destroyed the compass Locke gave him after he failed the test or just threw it away and later in the future he finds the same exact one brand new for sale and he regains his faith and buys it to take back to the island.


It was acompass not the compass

http://www.flickr.com/photos/drummerjoe/3218714785/

Compass #2 NEVER goes back in time.

Compass #1 always goes back and becomes the duplicate. compass #2 keeps going on and on, or is maybe destroyed at any time, it doesn't matter, because compass #1 is the one that goes back in time, it is the compass that becomes #2.



No, that is the problem with your theory, not mine.

Just say, for example, the compass was made in 1930.

1930_____________ 1954_________________ 2005
#1-----------------------------------------------------------------> #1 becomes #2
_________________#2----------------------------------------------------------------------->

As you can see, compass number 1 was made in 1930, Richard gives it to Locke in 2005, when Locke goes back the compass becomes a duplicate of the one that already existed at the time, hence #2. But #2 never goes back in time, we don't know what happened to it from the time John gave it to Richard.

Compass #1 ages from 1930 - 2005 - 65 years.
Compass #1 is 24 years old in 1954
Compass #1 does not exist past 65 years old, it goes back in time and becomes the duplicate compass, labeled #2
Compass #2 is already 65 years old in 1954.
Compass #2 will be 116 years old in 2005.

Their are going to be duplicates, because two compasses exist in 1954, exactly the same as the two #15 bunnies!

This is all assuming that John should give Richard that compass, because Richard already owns that same compass in 1954, would recognize it and know that John is telling the truth, which is the only reasonable scenario, the compass is unique, or has some unique etchings or scratches, if John had given him a random compass it wouldn't have mattered.
100%



It was acompass not the compass

http://www.flickr.com/photos/drummerjoe/3218714785/

Ok, I think I see what you're saying. So Alpert goes and buys a compass in 1930. 24 years later, Locke comes along and gives him a duplicate, if a bit older, compass. Richard now has two nigh-identical compasses. 50 years later, he gives Locke the original compass and keeps the one Locke gave him. That works. Sorry, sometimes it takes me a bit.

-AJF

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_paradox

Ok, I think I see what you're saying. So Alpert goes and buys a compass in 1930. 24 years later, Locke comes along and gives him a duplicate, if a bit older, compass. Richard now has two nigh-identical compasses. 50 years later, he gives Locke the original compass and keeps the one Locke gave him. That works. Sorry, sometimes it takes me a bit.

-AJF


That doesnt work:

1930 Alpert buys #1
1954 Locke brings#2, Alpert has #1 and #2
2005 Alpert gives #1 to lock: Alpert has #2 and Locke #1
200? Locke goes back in time to 1954 and gives #1 to Alpert, Alpert has #1 and #2
2005 Alpert gives #1 to lock: Alpert has #2 and Locke #1
200? Locke goes back in time to 1954 and gives #1 to Alpert, Alpert has #1 and #2
2005 Alpert gives #1 to lock: Alpert has #2 and Locke #1
200? Locke goes back in time to 1954 and gives #1 to Alpert, Alpert has #1 and #2
...

This way #1 gets looped and also will turn to dust...

That doesnt work:

1930 Alpert buys #1
1954 Locke brings#2, Alpert has #1 and #2
2005 Alpert gives #1 to lock: Alpert has #2 and Locke #1
200? Locke goes back in time to 1954 and gives #1 to Alpert, Alpert has #1 and #2
2005 Alpert gives #1 to lock: Alpert has #2 and Locke #1
200? Locke goes back in time to 1954 and gives #1 to Alpert, Alpert has #1 and #2
2005 Alpert gives #1 to lock: Alpert has #2 and Locke #1
200? Locke goes back in time to 1954 and gives #1 to Alpert, Alpert has #1 and #2
...

This way #1 gets looped and also will turn to dust...


NO, #1 only goes back once, and becomes #2 in the process.

The original, compass #1 exists from 1930 - 2005, from which point on it becomes the duplicate in 1954. That's a 65 year life prior to looping. Compass #1 ALWAYS loops at 65 years old. It will age past 65 years old, but it is no longer the original.

The older compass has time traveled
The younger compass will time travel


This theory is completely self consistent.

sorry, post edited out...