Love Richard Alpert, what a great character. Even though i reckon the writers blatantly didn't come up with that non-aging thing, it was just a make-up slip up, and then the fans came up with that crazy theory, and the writers couldn't admit such a terrible flaw, so they played along with it and wrote it into the show. I mean why else give him the stupid long haired wig? ANYWAY, it doesn't matter, he's been signed onto the show now until it ends in 2010, and they've written the characters arc out, and hes obviously a big player in the show now.

So, enough blabbering - my question.

Why is Richard Alpert so quick to find a new leader? With Locke telling him to go witness his birth, telling him he's special (and starting Locke's whole life time-loop), with Ben, and also with a young Charles Widmore being a rookie among the others, and eventually claiming possession of the whole island. From what I've seen, Richard is 100+ years old, and still looking good, surely this makes him the special one? And he was there before Ben, before Locke, as the Others' default leader (My personal theory is that he arrived there with Jacob on the Black Rock ship, and Jacob was the leader but then that whole unstuck in time thing happened to him, and now he's screwed).

But yeh, he was there first, he's the best, he always knows what to do. Why doesn't he just tell Locke and Widmore and Ben where to go, and run this damn island by himself? Like he's been doing for countless years before Widmore\Ben\Locke arrived on the scene. Why do they need a replacement leader?

And those EYEBROWS, C'MON.

Who said he was running the island himself before Widmore/Ben/Locke?

Who said he was running the island himself before Widmore/Ben/Locke?

Well who else is? When he said "We all have to answer to someone" he was blatantly referring to Jacob. And Jacob doesn't count as leader because he's in a bit of a pickle at the moment.

Well who else is? When he said "We all have to answer to someone" he was blatantly referring to Jacob. And Jacob doesn't count as leader because he's in a bit of a pickle at the moment.
What I mean is, it's possible (in my opinion likely) that he's been appointing 'leaders' as long as he's been there. Widmore (speculating), Ben, and Locke are just a few in what is probably a long line of island leaders. I don't think it's ever been just Richard, for whatever reason.

What I mean is, it's possible (in my opinion likely) that he's been appointing 'leaders' as long as he's been there. Widmore (speculating), Ben, and Locke are just a few in what is probably a long line of island leaders. I don't think it's ever been just Richard, for whatever reason.

But then why can't he be leader? What does Locke, Ben and Widmore have that he doesn't?

But then why can't he be leader? What does Locke, Ben and Widmore have that he doesn't?
It's possible that Richard can't communicate with Jacob the way Ben and Locke have apparently been able to. Countless possibilities that have yet to be explored.

But then why can't he be leader? What does Locke, Ben and Widmore have that he doesn't?

Obviously something we don't know about yet.

I've often wondered this myself.
The best explanation I could come up with is that he isn't supposed to lead. He is the guy who is supposed to FIND the one to lead.
Kind of like Morpheus in the Matrix, if you will.
His destiny is to find the chosen one, not to be the chosen one.

Is he the man behind the curtain? He acts as an advisor to the leaders and is always there next to the leaders. He certainly seems ready to replace Ben with Locke in S3.

Is he the man behind the curtain? He acts as an advisor to the leaders and is always there next to the leaders. He certainly seems ready to replace Ben with Locke in S3.
I've been thinking this all day. TMBTC was the episode where Ben first meets Richard, correct? We are led to believe that the term references Ben, since it is his flashback, and at the time, he appears to be the puppeteer on the island, but it may have very well been referencing Mr. Alpert.

I'm not sure that it is so obious that Richard reports to Jacob. Richard reports to the island and maybe he doesn't need Jacob to do this.

Free will.

Richard wants Locke/Ben/whoever to do the right thing, but he can't force them to do it.

Also, I think the writers did have RIchard's character planned out ahead of time.

I've often wondered this myself.
The best explanation I could come up with is that he isn't supposed to lead. He is the guy who is supposed to FIND the one to lead.
Kind of like Morpheus in the Matrix, if you will.
His destiny is to find the chosen one, not to be the chosen one.

I think this makes a lot of sense and explains why he doesn't age: we know that the island can keep people alive until they've fulfilled their "destiny". Maybe he'll finally die now that Locke is becoming the leader (if Locke is really the "chosen" one).

I think what's important to note is that as far as we know, Richard Alpert may be the only indigenous island resident we have ever met. I think it is reasonable to assume this since he is the only person we have ever seen as an Other before the purge. Most of the others seem to have been recruited and brought to the island or accidentally ending up there (lots of accents and nationalities). We have seen that whoever these Others are, they assimilate the people and things they come in contact with. All of these people that were chosen are presumably picked by Jacob (lists, etc.) and brought to the island for a reason, some of them being particularly special i.e. Ben, Locke, Walt, Widmore? Perhaps a leader can only be chosen from the outside world, the means by which to get there being very protected information as Richard said. The Others seem to have some sort of militaristic/religious power structure and I see Richard being somewhere near middle management. He's a recruiter and liaison given great responsibility but more of a lieutenant than a captain.

I've been thinking this all day. TMBTC was the episode where Ben first meets Richard, correct? We are led to believe that the term references Ben, since it is his flashback, and at the time, he appears to be the puppeteer on the island, but it may have very well been referencing Mr. Alpert.

I think that Richard has always been the man behind the island's curtain. Like Juliet said, "Richard has always been here". Do you really think that Jacob told Richard to have his men kill the 18 soldiers, as Richard suggested? Jacob and Richard are one and the same, IMO. It's like Superman and Clark Kent...no one's ever seen them in the same place at the same time. I think that Richard has been using the island's special powers to manifest himself as Jacob in the cabin. Perhaps "Jacob" was only an idea in Richard's mind until Locke clued him in that the idea would actually work. It's a perfect set-up, actually...A godhead to give the orders to his "special" leader, while Richard is the "man on the street", cleaning up the messes. A example of this would be when Richard went behind "Jacob's" back to convince John to have Sawyer kill Cooper.

So Richard is basically Keyser Soze.. i like it. :) Tho I must disagree with the OPs point on Richard Alperts non-aging being a make-up accident. Bens always clearly looked way older than Richard in the "present" island time, so for Richard to be, say a guy in his 20's with long hair, meet an 8 year old Ben in TMBTC turn out as a mistake is very very very unlikely.

I don't think Richard's agelessness is a writing slip up. Michael Emerson is 13 years OLDER than Nestor Carbonell, so assuming approximately equal ages for their respective characters, that would make Richard YOUNGER than Ben. The ages of the characters relative to the actors can be fudged (in fact, it seems they usually go a few years younger for most of the characters), but there's no way Richard would be that much older than Ben in TMBTC. No producer, writer or director would let that obvious of a mistake slip, IMO.

So Richard is basically Keyser Soze.. i like it. :) Tho I must disagree with the OPs point on Richard Alperts non-aging being a make-up accident. Bens always clearly looked way older than Richard in the "present" island time, so for Richard to be, say a guy in his 20's with long hair, meet an 8 year old Ben in TMBTC turn out as a mistake is very very very unlikely.

The notion that Richard is Jacob is intriguing. If that is the case he must have been taken aback when Locke told him that Jacob sent him (Locke). I don't know with Richard. He has that poker face.

The notion that Richard is Jacob is intriguing. If that is the case he must have been taken aback when Locke told him that Jacob sent him (Locke). I don't know with Richard. He has that poker face.

I've been thinking of this as the island's own sort of holy trinity...Jacob is the godhead, passing his will along through his special "prophets"; Richard is the Son, Jacob's manifestation on the island; and Smokey is the island's version of the holy ghost, the public relations arm of the trio. Using the Wizard of Oz as an analogy, picture Richard as the man behind the curtain, projecting the image of the great and powerful Jacob, surrounded by plumes of billowing smoke.

In the DVD commentary for "There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3" Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse refer to Richard as "the Dick Cheney of the Others."

I think that is sufficient information to infer that Alpert has never been the leader.

In the DVD commentary for "There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3" Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse refer to Richard as "the Dick Cheney of the Others."

I think that is sufficient information to infer that Alpert has never been the leader.

I take a lot of what they say with a grain of salt. What are they supposed to say about Richard if all has not yet been revealed?

In the DVD commentary for "There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3" Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse refer to Richard as "the Dick Cheney of the Others."

I think that is sufficient information to infer that Alpert has never been the leader.
Who is Dick Cheney?

Love Richard Alpert, what a great character. Even though i reckon the writers blatantly didn't come up with that non-aging thing, it was just a make-up slip up, and then the fans came up with that crazy theory, and the writers couldn't admit such a terrible flaw, so they played along with it and wrote it into the show.

I doubt they had a kid actor playing Ben but the same actor playing Richard Alpert and thinking no one would wonder why. I'm sure it's what they had in mind all along.

The episode where we see him with kid Ben is the same episode where adult Ben makes the comment to him about if he remembers birthdays.
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Who is Dick Cheney?

The guy who has been the vice-president of the united states the last 8 years.

Alpert is disinterested in leading the others but is very influential in finding and selecting a leader. That makes him kind of, in some way, more special does it not? On top of this he seems more than able to lead the others when neccesary .

I like the theory of Richard being "The Man Behind the Curtain."
I also like the analogy of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost being Jacob, Richard, and Smokey.
The Fact that TPTB referred to Richard as a Dick Cheney figure on the island could be a key statement. Many people have referred to Vice President Cheney as having pulled the strings of President Bush, i.e. being the puppet master. So an interpretation could be that Darlton were hinting that Richard might be the grand master of the whole operation.

How is it he's controlling an army of normal people if he's a supernatural indigeonous, how has this come about

How is it he's controlling an army of normal people if he's a supernatural indigeonous, how has this come about

There has got to be an interface between the supernatural world and our own if one is going to have an influence on the other. I think Richard has made the most of the opportunities which have been presented to him. Over the centuries, flesh and blood people have arrived on the island by various means, and I think that Richard has been indoctrinating his band of Others for a purpose which has not yet been revealed.

yes, it's just interesting how he controlled Charlos and Hawking, how did he sway them?!?! How did Hawking become so 'powerful'

Well who else is? When he said "We all have to answer to someone" he was blatantly referring to Jacob. And Jacob doesn't count as leader because he's in a bit of a pickle at the moment.

But in 1954, Jacob might not have been in a pickle. He may have been an alive, in the flesh person. Someone a lot like Locke, who has special commune with the island.

Jacob may also be like Locke in the fact that at some point, Jacob may have died for the island, which put him into apparition form. Here's a theory on Richard, Jacob, Widmore and Locke that I posted in the Special thread. It references things made in Under Alien Control's post, but not so much that it can't stand alone and apply to this. Tried to edit out any non-needed sentences.

Spoilered for length.

Widmore seems like a cast out from Richard and his others. Wanting to ascend to the leadership role, but not being special in the way they need, like you said. He's too aggressive and dominant, even mean at times.

He reacquires a stake in the island through the DI. The purge could have even been his idea. The Tempest gas could have been funded for use against the natives. Ben, at this point, could have even been an agent of his. Where Widmore thinks he has an ally in Ben in helping pull this off, so Widmore can reassert himself onto the island, probably not knowing that Ben had a previous relationship going with Richard. And he bought more into what he was saying than Charles.

That would cause a bit of contention between Ben and Wid, if Ben in essence double crossed him. From Widmore's perspective, Ben stole the island from him.

My take on Jacob differs from a lot of what I've read though.

Richard's superior, at the time (1954) could be Jacob. An alive, in the flesh Jacob, who could possibly be like Locke in season one, where he has a special commune with the island.

Also like Locke, maybe there came a point when Jacob had to die in order to protect the island, leaving him in the incarnation we first get a glimpse at with Ben. No reason why Jacob has to be dead in 1954. Plus, there's no cabin in 1954. Horace built it.

Which leads me to think that the DI or someone from that time period, imprisoned the spirit of Jacob in the cabin.

I think Jacob is the voice of the island. Or was. He most likely was the first. Even if he did die, like Locke (and Christian, but we'll get to him) and was a free roaming apparition, when the DI comes along and Horace builds his cabin, Jacob got imprisoned.

Whoever did that, whenever that happened, they wanted to commune with the island, but could not themselves. They most likely couldn't even see Jacob in the same way that Ben did, but wanted him in essence to be under thumb. To me, the action of imprisoning Jacob screams Widmore.

Widmore, cast out by Richard and the other others, re-stakes himself in the island, but in order to be in full control of it, he needs Jacob under control, but also someone who has the potential to communicate with him. He forges a relationship with Ben, possibly on this basis. So Ben can serve as Widmore's conduit to Jacob, seeing as Wid isn't special enough to see the man himself.

Widmore needs to know what the island is saying, in order to keep it under control.

Whoever or however Jacob was freed, I think that's it, he's gone. Gone from the point of the story from 2005, when Christian is seen sitting in the cabin. Christian became the interim voice of the island. I think it's the island working through these people. The island was working through Jacob, then got trapped in Jacob's body by the cabin and the ash, a possibly Widmore scheme.

The island, free from constraints, can use any dead body as it's voice. Since the cabin's been moving, since the ring of ash has degraded to the point it can do that, we've seen manifestations of Charlie, Christian, Ana-Lucia, Libby for point two seconds. There are no more constraints that binds it to one person.

No more constraints that keep it locked into one person, imo.

I think we'll see Locke return, in a coffin just like Christian; and Jacob (though he was confined to the cabin when we saw last) Locke will be the voice of the island. I think the island is an entity in itself and tho Jacob, while important to the island and it's history, is not as important as what he's the voice of.


Jacob's gone as 2004/5, when Hurley see's Christian Shepherd in the cabin. Jacob's time as the voice of the island is over.

It's been speculated that the ash surrounding the cabin was to keep it and Jacob fixed. Whatever or whoever helped in freeing the cabin from constraint, I don't know, but Jacob no longer had to be the voice. He could move with Christian Shepherd taking over as an iterim-island voice. Until Locke's path was complete. Christian's speaking on Jacob's behalf until Locke comes back in a coffin. imo.

that's fairly solid. So was "jacob" a normal person initially? A big explanation is in order if some sort of "ash" can contain him. What exactly is it these people become one with??(you can't just say the Island...)

In the DVD commentary for "There's No Place Like Home, Parts 2 & 3" Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse refer to Richard as "the Dick Cheney of the Others."

I think that is sufficient information to infer that Alpert has never been the leader.

That depends on what you think was the real relationship of Cheney and Bush.

A lot of people said Cheney was the "real" president and made the real decisions, as he did on 9/11.

Others saw Cheney as the "dark side" or evil enforcer of the public presidency--Cheney himself talked about needing to "spend time in the shadows," and he hung out in an "undisclosed location."


It's actually a very intriguing and ambivalent statement.

Jacob may also be like Locke in the fact that at some point, Jacob may have died for the island, which put him into apparition form. Widmore seems like a cast out from Richard and his others. Wanting to ascend to the leadership role, but not being special in the way they need, like you said. He's too aggressive and dominant, even mean at times.

He reacquires a stake in the island through the DI. The purge could have even been his idea. The Tempest gas could have been funded for use against the natives. Ben, at this point, could have even been an agent of his. Where Widmore thinks he has an ally in Ben in helping pull this off, so Widmore can reassert himself onto the island, probably not knowing that Ben had a previous relationship going with Richard. And he bought more into what he was saying than Charles.

That would cause a bit of contention between Ben and Wid, if Ben in essence double crossed him. From Widmore's perspective, Ben stole the island from him.

My take on Jacob differs from a lot of what I've read though.

Richard's superior, at the time (1954) could be Jacob. An alive, in the flesh Jacob, who could possibly be like Locke in season one, where he has a special commune with the island.

Also like Locke, maybe there came a point when Jacob had to die in order to protect the island, leaving him in the incarnation we first get a glimpse at with Ben. No reason why Jacob has to be dead in 1954. Plus, there's no cabin in 1954. Horace built it.

Which leads me to think that the DI or someone from that time period, imprisoned the spirit of Jacob in the cabin.

I think Jacob is the voice of the island. Or was. He most likely was the first. Even if he did die, like Locke (and Christian, but we'll get to him) and was a free roaming apparition, when the DI comes along and Horace builds his cabin, Jacob got imprisoned.

Whoever did that, whenever that happened, they wanted to commune with the island, but could not themselves. They most likely couldn't even see Jacob in the same way that Ben did, but wanted him in essence to be under thumb. To me, the action of imprisoning Jacob screams Widmore.

Widmore, cast out by Richard and the other others, re-stakes himself in the island, but in order to be in full control of it, he needs Jacob under control, but also someone who has the potential to communicate with him. He forges a relationship with Ben, possibly on this basis. So Ben can serve as Widmore's conduit to Jacob, seeing as Wid isn't special enough to see the man himself.

Widmore needs to know what the island is saying, in order to keep it under control.

Whoever or however Jacob was freed, I think that's it, he's gone. Gone from the point of the story from 2005, when Christian is seen sitting in the cabin. Christian became the interim voice of the island. I think it's the island working through these people. The island was working through Jacob, then got trapped in Jacob's body by the cabin and the ash, a possibly Widmore scheme.

The island, free from constraints, can use any dead body as it's voice. Since the cabin's been moving, since the ring of ash has degraded to the point it can do that, we've seen manifestations of Charlie, Christian, Ana-Lucia, Libby for point two seconds. There are no more constraints that binds it to one person.

No more constraints that keep it locked into one person, imo.

I think we'll see Locke return, in a coffin just like Christian; and Jacob (though he was confined to the cabin when we saw last) Locke will be the voice of the island. I think the island is an entity in itself and tho Jacob, while important to the island and it's history, is not as important as what he's the voice of.
Jacob's gone as 2004/5, when Hurley see's Christian Shepherd in the cabin. Jacob's time as the voice of the island is over. Whatever or whoever helped in freeing the cabin from constraint, I don't know, but Jacob no longer had to be the voice. He could move with Christian Shepherd taking over as an iterim-island voice. Until Locke's path was complete. Christian's speaking on Jacob's behalf until Locke comes back in a coffin. imo.

Great ideas, Merch, especially those about Ben and Widmore's previous relationship. A few questions for you about the Jacob part:

1. Why do you suppose the island needs someone in spirit form to be its spokesperson?

2. Are you thinking that Ben kept Jacob imprisoned for the same reason that Widmore did (to keep Jacob under his thumb)? It seems Alpert was OK with Jacob remaining imprisoned as well...this seems odd to me, unless Richard also had his own agenda.

3. If Jacob's time as voice of the island was over, why did Ben talk to him when he turned the FDW? Was this just a bit of sarcasm on his part?

...
Jacob's gone as 2004/5, when Hurley see's Christian Shepherd in the cabin. Jacob's time as the voice of the island is over..
I think it may be important that when Locke encountered Richard in 1954, he said "Jacob sent me" despite the fact that it was "Christian Sheppard" that apparated in the cabin. This suggests to me that he thought Christian Shepard was Jacob. Not having met either, this was a reasonable assumption on his part.

This still begs the question as to why Jacob appeared to Hurley and to Locke as C.S. - someone neither man had ever met.

Great ideas, Merch, especially those about Ben and Widmore's previous relationship. A few questions for you about the Jacob part:

1. Why do you suppose the island needs someone in spirit form to be its spokesperson?

2. Are you thinking that Ben kept Jacob imprisoned for the same reason that Widmore did (to keep Jacob under his thumb)? It seems Alpert was OK with Jacob remaining imprisoned as well...this seems odd to me, unless Richard also had his own agenda.

3. If Jacob's time as voice of the island was over, why did Ben talk to him when he turned the FDW? Was this just a bit of sarcasm on his part?


1. Ancient man was in tune with the earth. At one with nature, not apart from it. Egyptians, mayans, the chinese and thier thousands of years of history, they had a deeper understanding; an acute sensitivity to their environment. Even as recently as the Native Americans.

I think, even outside the show, that modern man has lost that ancient, instinctual link to the natural world. The world has done larger things, but not necessarily better things. People have lost respect for the world as they've lost touch with that connection, imo.

I think the island isn't immune to that. Even with Richard and any others that have been on it for who knows how long. Those on the island have had to adapt to outsiders who've come in, wanting one thing or another. We've seen Dharma, we've seen the U.S. Army in the fifties bringing bombs. Even things like 815, though far less intentional, have interrupted the flow of life those ancient others have lived by.

Presumably, even with the island being hard to find, I think we can assume that these invasions, so to speak, have been things through out the decades, centuries, whatever. As the others have had to adapt to foreign bodies to overcome them, they've lost a little of what connected them to the island, imo. They're much more in tune with it, then outside people are in tune with their world, but I think they've fallen off enough that they need someone to bridge that connection for them.

Someone to be the voice. It's pretty obvios the island is a special place, whether by design or accident. Whether or not we get any definitive confirmation on it, I think of the island as a sentient organism.

A dog with a human intelligence and awareness, would still have all the limitations of a dog. In essence, a person would be trapped in a dog's body. How frustrating would it be to have big dreams and idea's and lack the ability to execute them? If the island has some kind of intelligence or power, it still lacks the ability of to execute any of it's wishes or wants. It needs people to ensure it's continuance. Richard and the others, acting on the island's behalf.

To me, it seems like the island says treat me well, and I will treat you well. Richards apparent agelessness seems a direct tie to the islands properties to heal. The more you give the island, the more it gives you. Richard's probably been a believer for a millenium.

An answer to your first question. :cool:

2. If Richard and Ben worked together to keep Widmore from setting himself up as a diety on the island, Richard could have trusted Ben to be a loyal giver of Jacob's word. Perhaps Widmore's trapping of Jacob was not something they could undo at the time. It seems to me that the first step towards Jacob being free of confinement and the cabin came with the crash of 815. That their arrival signaled the beginning of a change.

And that happened because Desmond didn't push the button on time.

He was there on the island indirectly because of Widmore and more directly because of Hawking. We've mostly just seen both Hawking and Widmore on the island in 1950s

I think in order to set things right, which would include freeing Jacob, events had to be funneled towards a certain point. Wid and Hawk, having an extensive knowledge of the island and events that've happened there could facilitate that funneling. The funneling being bringing that particular flight 815 to the island, with Jack and Locke and Claire.

I think Richard's trust of Ben was not unfounded, but ultimately Ben was wasting time with fertility problems and Richard felt there were bigger fish to fry and as leader Ben should have been frying them. I think Ben liked being the filter for information, and didn't mind Jacob being confined. Though there was still a fearful respect that existed, as evidence when Ben told Locke Jacob was not a man you went and saw, he was a man who summoned you.

Even in some kind of jail, the island could exercise it's reach/power in some way through Jacob that caused Ben to feel like that. I don't think Ben, ultimately had the same intentions as Widmore. Ben was a lot closer to a protector of the island than Widmore would have been, imo. The arrogant kid we saw Widmore to be makes me think he may have been snubbed by Richard.

It'll be interesting to see more indepth on this group as the season progresses.

3. As far as Ben knew, it was Jacob who Locke had spoken with. Ben never went in the cabin. The last time he did, he spoke with Jacob. I can't see Ben knowing there'd been a switch or that there would be if there had never been one in the past.

I think Jacob was first to have died for the island, and end up in that apparition state. Ben, still a little sore about being pushed aside, had a gripe with Jacob, he gives him a parting shot.

Lets see if this exceeds character count for a post now.:cool:
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I think it may be important that when Locke encountered Richard in 1954, he said "Jacob sent me" despite the fact that it was "Christian Sheppard" that apparated in the cabin. This suggests to me that he thought Christian Shepard was Jacob. Not having met either, this was a reasonable assumption on his part.

This still begs the question as to why Jacob appeared to Hurley and to Locke as C.S. - someone neither man had ever met.

With Hurley, there were two people in the cabin. CS in the rocking chair and whoever that eye belonged to (Jacob? Desmond...?) I think this was Hurley witnessing the moment of transistion. Where Jacob gave way to CS.

Yea, and as far as Locke knew, because no one told him otherwise, CS being there was not an abnormal thing. Maybe Jacob had people speak on his behalf when he ran out for pizza or coffee or a drink with friends :cool: No one explains anything to Locke, and thus us fans, so it's no wonder he does what he does and says what he says half the time.