We seem to have a high yield thermonuclear device that has made its way onto the island -- inland 20+ tons of bomb. The US military somehow finds the 'unfindable' island and parks its ultimate weapon to run a test. I find this pretty strange but won't go into the details.

The bomb is conveniently (or inconveniently) leaking radiation. Faraday, a radiation specialist of sorts, says they have to plug the leak with lead or bury it under cement. Suppose as other people have surmised, that a nice place to bury it is under the Swan. Granted, the Swan doesn't exist in 1954, but let's suppose that the bomb eventually makes its way under the good deal of cement (I'd say Dharma moved it) located in or below the Swan. We now have this magnetic lode and a percolating kettle of radiation co-located in the Swan. To what end? I think the Dharma people were trying to artificially create whatever energy source they were tapping from the exotic matter in the Orchid. But possibly the underlying reason was to create someone like Desmond. Faraday said exposure to either a large magnetic field or certain kinds of radiation could cause this consciousness time travel thing we've seen. What would exposure to both result in?

Could the whole countdown, quarantine and saving the world schtick been just a method to keep Desmond sequestered for the necessary period of time so he could receive both metered doses of radiation and EM pulses, until he was acclimated enough to survive the turn of the key, creating this wildcard that Faraday spoke of. Someone who could break the yoke of destiny, and change what is predestined? Could a greater power be at work fascillitating the series of events we Lost viewers are all familiar with that resulted in Desmond not only turning the key, but staying in the Swan all that time so that he would be physically ready to turn the key?

Wow. Great idea and it's only your 12th post. Let me know when you hit your 100th. By then you might be able to figure out the series finale :) Seriously, I love this idea.

Desmond is special. But what if they are all doomed to trying to save the world over and over again. But in reality they are too late. The bomb did go off and Daniel is too late?
Perhaps Desmond is the only hope?

hi Essex - long time no see!

Many things seem to point towards the Jughead device being buried under the Swan Hatch, the concrete, sayid's comment about chernobyl etc.

but it doesnt quite add up to me, im no expert and i will be interested to hear what the experts say but i cant see how this bomb would cause an electromagnetic anomoly that needed venting every 108 minutes. i also cant see how the failsafe would work to end the problem. Unless dharma really could teleport it into the future or something but their bunny experiments in the orchid dont really indicate that they had mastered that.
The chain reaction that makes one of these bombs explode isnt something that could be controlled as far as i know - thats the point.

also why wouldnt dharma have done a sonar of the area like they did at the orchid and seen the bomb.

here is what Cuse said about the swan.
"Carlton Cuse: Pushing the button was not a psychological experiment. It was actually literally necessary to trigger an electromagnetic discharge. If this electromagnetic discharge did not occur every 108 minutes, then the buildup of electromagnetic forces would actually ultimately create something that could conceivably end the world, and if Desmond had not turned the failsafe key you would not be watching this video right now at all."

also if dharma were studying the unique properties of the island,why would they be interested in something that had been buried 30 years previously?

like i say, a lot of things point to it but it would also seem to conttradict some of the stuff we know about the swan (or think we know)
100%
one last point, TPTB have also said that the others knew little or nothing about the swan hatch. you would have thought that one of them would have known the location of the burtied bomb and put two and two together.

BL
Thank you always for the warm welcome. I've been here enjoying your intelligent posts.

While I'm an aeronautical engineer, I'm no expert as well (although I did do a paper many moons ago on the subject). But I feel it is somewhat irrelevant to the topic (and after all, there is no science I'm aware of that says exposure to any type of radiation will cause your head to go skipping through time). But I believe you're thinking of a nuclear power plant that produces power through sustainable and controlled energy source - fission (but less than a chain reaction). Cadmium rods or strips absorb neutrons, which enable the nuclear plant to raise or lower the activity of energy emitted during operation. Simplistically -- no rods in the bomb, the energy over a short period of time (nanoseconds) due to the number neutrons liberated and number of collisions, energy increases like mad and you get a big boom. The bomb in this case is nothing more than a source of radiation. A chain reaction is difficult to produce. The bomb is much more dangerous as a source of radiation than as an explosive. Most conventional explosives are much more volatile. I would think that the Dharma people (if they had radiation suits or stupid volunteers:)) would have removed the triggering mechanism.

I can't see the writers titling this episode after a bomb (in season five no less) and it not being a key plot device. If they treated Jughead like a character with flashbacks, you'd see a series of events leading towards maneuvering this bomb to the island that would look very unlikely (or manipulated). I've seen the comment about the Swan not being a psychological experiment and was greatly pleased by it. I still believe the Swan is the focal point of what has happened before and is responsible for what is going on in the present. And I agree that only a select few knew what was going on in the Swan…and even they may have been unaware of its true purpose.

What we have is two separate things here. A naturally occurring magnetic lode giving off the EM and an unnaturally occurring bomb. Well its safe to say that the Swan didn't always exist, so there wasn't always a reason to have a method to discharge the EM. So we have a group of Dharma scientists creating an amalgam of the two (in effect enhancing what was already there) and coming up with something that they may not have expected (which I believe was the cause of the incident, Jacob, and the protocols that were set in place). But I also believe that someone is reading the tea leaves so to speak with a hidden and greater agenda, that resulted in Desmond. I'd say an inner circle of Dharma that is being manipulated by someone with an even greater knowledge. In my mind everything points to this. A manipulation of related and seemingly unrelated events and people. There are people with no knowledge, some knowledge, and a great deal of knowledge. The onion has yet to be peeled and the real man (or thing) behind the curtain has yet to be revealed. The door in the Swan that read that there was an area that was not related V-eq experiments was specifically put there to show that the stuff from the TLE is relevant (and key) to the show and ties it directly to the Swan (IMHO). Needless to say the numbers are more prevalent in the Swan than anywhere else. Why? I think the war between fate and freewill was being waged almost exclusivley in the Swan and almost no one was even aware of it.

I've followed your "Foundations" thread so to speak with great interest having read all the books (even the post Asimov books). I was dismayed that time travel was confirmed to be the main mechanism that was behind Losts Gordian knot because in a way, it makes Lost "unguessable" because it leaves you the latitude to do almost anything (despite the claims of the TPTB of set rules…which they like to violate at every turn). I did like the "Numbers" angle in that it harkened to Hari Seldon's psychohistory in that through mathematics it was possible to predict the actions of the masses thus giving a window into the future (and maybe changing it). Time travel is a well worn plot device in both literature and the movies so I would have liked to see Lost tread new ground (which to be fair they have but in other areas). But maybe all is not lost (pun intended). Even if I gave you the power of time travel, how could I possibly predict what the actions of individuals amongst the billions now living (and trillions who've existed before) would have on the future. I'd need some way to isolate individuals and forecast what effect changing variables would have on the overall outcome -- V-Equation! Time travel is the just the pencil with a convenient eraser. Who has the pencil in his hand is the key question?

I think people are misinterpreting the lead and concrete comment. The jughead wasn't buried behind the Swan barrier -- it's a metaphor for the Island. The Incident created a breach that leaked the Island's exotic energy. So Dharma plugged the leak and buried it behind concrete. I think the jughead itself is still on the Island -- Keamy and Co. were going to use it to nuke the place. I'm guessing it's in the Arrow...

This is a great thread!

Why couldn't Jughead be behind the mystery "Door" station that Sayid found in "Live Together, Die Alone"? That was my first thought when Daniel told Ellie to bury the bomb.

BM

Jughead's leaky nature and what to do with it could very well be a metaphor for what happened at the Swan. I didn't miss that possibility and my theory is really nothing more than a hopeful guess (a stretch at best). But I just cannot see the fact that an H-bomb is on the island to provide nothing more than a metaphor. I also feel that what's going on in the Swan (Dharama science "+") stems from something that is different from what is going on in the Orchid (non Dharma exotic material). I think Ben's comment to Locke about Dharma's silly experiments was very accurate as it applied to what they were doing in the Orchid. I believe what I perceive as Ben's ignorance to what was really going on in the Swan is very telling. For lack of a better term, I think a double or triple feint was transpiring in the Swan. The whole faith, lose of faith, regaining of faith was a very necessary progression for both Desmond and John (when they were in the Swan), to get where we are at in the present (whenever that it).:)

Did Keamy and Co. say they were going to nuke the place? I can't remember. I thought they would kill everyone on the island, but I can't imagine Widmore destroying the place since he seems to know the island has great importance.

on the blast door map there is a notation that says (to the left of the flame)

"alleged location of aborted #7 large number of underground streems/heavy water table"

could this heavy water (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water)(which contains deuterium and is used in the production of plutoniom) be a clue to the fact that the jughead bomb may be buried nearby? )
perhaps the contents of the bomb are leaching into the ground water?

Did Keamy and Co. say they were going to nuke the place? I can't remember. I thought they would kill everyone on the island, but I can't imagine Widmore destroying the place since he seems to know the island has great importance.
Keamy said they were going to "torch" the Island. He also predicted that Ben would be going to the Orchid, presumably to move the Island before it was torched. Hence the need for the Secondary Protocol...

I like your ideas, Essex. My eyes start to glaze over when I think too hard about time travel and electromagnetic forces, but I don't think that's the main focus of the story anyway. I agree with you that the bigger question is who is responsible for bringing these people together, and for what purpose are they here?

I can't see the writers titling this episode after a bomb (in season five no less) and it not being a key plot device. If they treated Jughead like a character with flashbacks, you'd see a series of events leading towards maneuvering this bomb to the island that would look very unlikely (or manipulated).

Agreed. But was Jughead's arrival orchestrated by the same individual or group that set up the Swan for it's ultimate purpose? Perhaps there are competing forces working behind the scenes. If this is the case, then bigmouth's scenario may be in play. I could see it going either way.


The onion has yet to be peeled and the real man (or thing) behind the curtain has yet to be revealed. The door in the Swan that read that there was an area that was not related V-eq experiments was specifically put there to show that the stuff from the TLE is relevant (and key) to the show and ties it directly to the Swan (IMHO). Needless to say the numbers are more prevalent in the Swan than anywhere else. Why? I think the war between fate and freewill was being waged almost exclusivley in the Swan and almost no one was even aware of it.I'm pretty sure that the VE and the numbers will tie into LOST's endgame. The fate vs. free will theme has been pushed to the side by time travel recently, but I think "it'll come back around". The skipping we are seeing, IMO, is just an interesting way to tell the backstory. As much as LOST has focused on science or pseudoscience over the last couple of seasons, I'm expecting a more supernatural twist at the end.


Time travel is the just the pencil with a convenient eraser. Who has the pencil in his hand is the key question?My guess would be either Richard or his immediate superior.

I think people are misinterpreting the lead and concrete comment. The jughead wasn't buried behind the Swan barrier -- it's a metaphor for the Island. The Incident created a breach that leaked the Island's exotic energy. So Dharma plugged the leak and buried it behind concrete. I think the jughead itself is still on the Island -- Keamy and Co. were going to use it to nuke the place. I'm guessing it's in the Arrow...

Right on, IMO. Jughead is both a plot catalyst in itself and a metaphor for the Swan/Island.

I always wondered how Keamy planned to torch the island, since all his team had was the helicopter and the stuff on their backs. Takes a lot to burn up an island; even all those dozens of flaming arrows didn't make a dent. Makes sense he planned to nuke it.

We've never actually been told or shown the significance of the Arrow. I'm not inclined to take Chang's orientation description (the development of defensive strategies against the hostiles) at face value. No way he was going to say "The Arrow houses a decades-old hydrogen bomb". And the Arrow was reintroduced to viewers in the same time frame (week apart) as Jughead was introduced. That's no coincidence.

Wasn't there a nuclear device in The Stand?....

And don't they mention influences from The Stand in LOST?....

I think people are misinterpreting the lead and concrete comment. The jughead wasn't buried behind the Swan barrier -- it's a metaphor for the Island. The Incident created a breach that leaked the Island's exotic energy. So Dharma plugged the leak and buried it behind concrete. I think the jughead itself is still on the Island -- Keamy and Co. were going to use it to nuke the place. I'm guessing it's in the Arrow...


A 50 year old buried & leaky hydrogen bomb would not be viable as a fission/fusion chain reaction device. In order to work again, it would need to be re-machined in a relatively advanced clean room with all kinds of advanced tools - it would likely take months, and would require at least one nuclear physicist.

A 50 year old buried & leaky hydrogen bomb would not be viable as a fission/fusion chain reaction device. In order to work again, it would need to be re-machined in a relatively advanced clean room with all kinds of advanced tools - it would likely take months, and would require at least one nuclear physicist.

I accepted a frozen donkey wheel that moves an island in time and space, so I'm in no position to quibble over how the writers deal with the bomb.
There's a fully hydrogenated package (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1033-308.html)buried somewhere on an island where saltine crackers still crunched after being buried (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1405-419.html) for 15 years. They don't last 15 days in my pantry. Who knows what the bomb will or won't do, on the island?

I accepted a frozen donkey wheel that moves an island in time and space, so I'm in no position to quibble over how the writers deal with the bomb.
There's a fully hydrogenated package (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1033-308.html)buried somewhere on an island where saltine crackers still crunched after being buried (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1405-419.html) for 15 years. They don't last 15 days in my pantry. Who knows what the bomb will or won't do, on the island?


It's questionable even that Jughead would work at the time it was suspended in the tower. When a hydrogen bomb leaks like that, it's usually indicative of battery acid from the ignition device liquefying the plutonium.

IMO, the writers are well aware of this.

Nuclear bombs need to be maintained over time. They need to have parts replaced and be inspected. A small amount of normal decay will stop the possibility of a fission/fusion reaction occurring - and this is in ideal conditions.

IMO, the writers are well aware of this.

Maybe. Certainly they're aware that adding water to baking soda merely creates a paste, and it's vinegar that's used in school rooms to create a gaseous foamy eruption.
Isn't it likely that the purpose of the volcano and the cracker scenes was to let us know that we should suspend disbelief about chemical and physical and other matters on the island?

Maybe. Certainly they're aware that adding water to baking soda merely creates a paste, and it's vinegar that's used in school rooms to create a gaseous foamy eruption.
Isn't it likely that the purpose of the volcano and the cracker scenes was to let us know that we should suspend disbelief about chemical and physical and other matters on the island?

The crackers were 15 years old, but Ben only put them in the box a few days ago? TT on the Island is going on... off island? Not so sure, except from the viewpoint of the Island.

Daniel said the bomb doesn't go off, because the Island is still there 50 years into the future.

I think it's FAR more likely that the bomb will be used as a "dirty bomb", spraying radiation all over the island.

As for suspending disbelief, the writers have be painstaking in their adherence to theoretical principles. I don't think they'd be off the mark when it came to an easily research subject like nuclear physics.

A 50 year old buried & leaky hydrogen bomb would not be viable as a fission/fusion chain reaction device. In order to work again, it would need to be re-machined in a relatively advanced clean room with all kinds of advanced tools - it would likely take months, and would require at least one nuclear physicist.
It's a magical Island where miracles happen.
I think it's FAR more likely that the bomb will be used as a "dirty bomb", spraying radiation all over the island.
I guess that works too. The problem is, Keamy said they would "torch" the Island, not merely make it radioactive.

I like the conjecture here, but I agree with some that say that the DI could not have confused a nuclear device with a power source. They are not interchangeable.

I posted an alternative theory here (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=106673).

What if widmore used desmond to change things and want to use jugghead to wipe out the island so he can take over with a clean plate. Well after the radiation dies down anyways?

Perhaps by protecting the Island Ben will protect the world? If the bomb goes off on the Island how will that effect people off Island? Will it spread the TT effects? Perhaps the radiation from the bomb is causing the TT?

radiation combined with the exotic matter, got to be the combination