Ok, i think ive found a pattern, or something - not a fully formed theory yet.

John Locke leaves the island to die and be bought back - why?
I think that if you are 'on the list' or special and die off the island, then the Island creates an 'event' (as in 'event window determined') to bring you back.
we'll look at the wider implications of this in a moment, but first.-


Christian Shephard - He goes to australia, somehow dies, and the plane that is carrying his dead body back to LA crashes on the island. Once on the island he comes back to life again with special abilities, or something that amounts to pretty much the same thing.

Did CS know he was going to die? is that why all the heavy drinking? is that why he left his wallet behind - he knew he wouldnt need it?


Yemi - is killed in Nigeria - The plane that carries his body somehow crashes on the island - a similar thing happens.


and this last one is more of a stretch but

Magnus Hanso - did he hie on the Black Rock before it reached the island? is that why it arrived there?

so somehow, if you belong to the island, or if your soul is on the list, then you are going to have to go back, dead or alive. Obviously if you are alive then more options are open to you.

If alpert knows about this then how could he contrive a plan to bring everyone back to an island that they dont know the location of?
You could send a special person to die off the island, thus creating an 'event window' that will bring the body back, and as long as everyone stays with the coffin, they should come back too.

This could also be a clue as to why the island is jumping through time, possibly it is cycling through the times when people arrived on the island to facilitate an event window where Locke can get back, when that will be is open to question.

right that will do for now, help me nail this theory down :biggrin:

But the time jumping occurs because the O6 left... and before Locke dies. I'm not sure the island would know to open a window in the hopes that someone would be brought back...as we've seen, Desmond caused the crash of Flight 815.

I think the event window has something more scientific behind it.

Though it's still not clear to me why they all have to go back... I think it has something to do with what being "alive" on the island really means.

hi simone, thanks for the response :)

But the time jumping occurs because the O6 left... and before Locke dies.

i agree, but the way to cure it is to bring them back, and in order to do so they have to find the island again. Consider that the 'event window' opens up 3 years after the O6 left, but only days after Locke dies. Locke had to die in order that the O6 could find the island.

I'm not sure the island would know to open a window in the hopes that someone would be brought back...as we've seen, Desmond caused the crash of Flight 815.

but we know the island can stop a gun from firing and cause someone to walk infront of a bus,and we know there are many fate/destiny issues connected to 815 and it's passengers

desmond caused the crash, but was it his 'destiny' to do so?
you must agree it is a strange coincidence - CS dies in australia, the plane his coffin is being carried on crashes on the island and now he can speak for jacob, whilst Locke is jacob's chosen one, and he leaves the island and has to die in order to bring the O6 back.

I think the event window has something more scientific behind it.

perhaps so

Though it's still not clear to me why they all have to go back... I think it has something to do with what being "alive" on the island really means.

if you beleive that they were all bought there for a reason,they're special, then i think - and it's hard to convey this - but when the island moves, it somehow checks to make sure all the special souls are present and correct, finds that they arent and starts the time jumping.
So the O6 have to go back to cure that presumably, but they dont know how to find the island because it has moved. Hence Locke has to die and an event will occur to get him back.
or something like that :biggrin:

Hmmm...you may be onto something with this, BL. I especially like the way Yemi and Christian seem to have been resurrected by Smokey. Is that how Locke will be resurrected, as well?

John Locke leaves the island to die and be bought back - why?
I think that if you are 'on the list' or special and die off the island, then the Island creates an 'event' (as in 'event window determined') to bring you back.

Christian Shephard - He goes to australia, somehow dies, and the plane that is carrying his dead body back to LA crashes on the island. Once on the island he comes back to life again with special abilities, or something that amounts to pretty much the same thing.

Since we have a time-skipping Island, a time distortion in traveling to/from the Island, Lost-time (Mitelos) and time not only being of the essence but THE essence....it may be safe to say that TIME plays a big part in what happens when you arrive to the Island D.O.A.

One can die on the Island and remain dead. One can die off the Island and remain dead off the Island. One can arrive dead on the Island before they are killed off the Island (Doc). ....So what happens if you die off the Island and your body is brought back to the Island to a time when you were alive??




If alpert knows about this then how could he contrive a plan to bring everyone back to an island that they dont know the location of?
You could send a special person to die off the island, thus creating an 'event window' that will bring the body back, and as long as everyone stays with the coffin, they should come back too.

Not bad. So Alpert helps facilitate getting the O6 back by sending Locke with the message. For some reason he has to die in the outside world as J.B. Then Ben and Ms. H take care of the rest?

Though it's still not clear to me why they all have to go back... I think it has something to do with what being "alive" on the island really means.
Especially since Hurley's line "We're all dead. All the O6, we never left that Island."
but we know the island can stop a gun from firing and cause someone to walk infront of a bus,and we know there are many fate/destiny issues connected to 815 and it's passengers


Hate to nit pick, but we don't know "the ISLAND" can prevent someone from dying. Giving any power to "the Island" itself is one of pettest pet peeves when it comes to LOST.

I'd rather look at the rules...you can't change the past, what has happened has happened... If Michael, for example, couldn't die off the Island before the freighter incident, it's MO that the reason was "he couldn't die off the Island because he already died" either on the freighter or in the original 815 crash.

Interesting ideas, BL! It does seem to me that if you're going to the Island, intentionally going there or not, you need a dead body with you. Some kind of peace offering? Some kind of key to opening the welcoming and acceptance of the Island?

On a side note, the idea that the coffin that we saw Jack get angry and upset next to in Season One might belong to Locke, not CS, intrigues me. We'd be blindsided by that one, if it's true!

Also, we've been talking in other threads about the serious amount of family connections on the show. Not that it's a new topic of conversation, but I wonder if we've underestimated the importance of the families on the show. Does the Island's history always have to have members of a certain family on it in order to keep going?

I do think the idea of the dead being swept to the island makes sense. It seems to me that the dead are attracted to the island like magnets because the Island is a gateway to the next realm (whatever that may be for the person), and a place where those destined for Hell can get a chance to redeem themselves... or become good or bad angels or something like that.

One of the special properties of the island is that it can resurrect people... perhaps within a certain window of their death, or perhaps in a way that changes who they are.

But Michael can die off the island; he did. And so does Locke. I think that Michael's inability to kill himself has to do with course-correcting.

The event window must be related to when the Earth is in a certain position in its rotation so that one can travel through... perhaps one doesn't gain entrance without a dead body, but then what about Desmond, he came alone on the Elizabeth? Maybe the ashes of Libby's dead husband are on the boat. And Rousseau? Maybe just as Claire doesn't feel Aaron move until she eats the orange fish, Rousseau's baby, unborn Alex, also died and was, like Aaron, revived on the island?(Henry Gale may already have been dead).

I'd rather look at the rules...you can't change the past, what has happened has happened... If Michael, for example, couldn't die off the Island before the freighter incident, it's MO that the reason was "he couldn't die off the Island because he already died" either on the freighter or in the original 815 crash.

But Michael can die off the island; he did. And so does Locke. I think that Michael's inability to kill himself has to do with course-correcting

When I said "couldn't die off the Island" I was referring to the instances off the Island when he couldn't kill himself...by gun, car crash, etc.

"because he already died on the freighter" was meant to imply that the death we saw Michael suffer on the freighter may have already happened in a circle of events on and/or off the Island.

So if we apply "if it happened, it always has to happen" "can't go back and kill Hitler" type rules...Michael had to die on the freighter, not before and not after, because somehow the freighter event had happened in a time before Michael wanted to kill himself back home.

One last note...we're really not sure where on the event horizon the freighter actually was when it exploded. It was traveling closer and closer to the Island and could have been in the radius (like Daniel's boat was) during the explosion.

Hmmm...you may be onto something with this, BL. I especially like the way Yemi and Christian seem to have been resurrected by Smokey. Is that how Locke will be resurrected, as well?

thanks bm - what i am most confident about is that the chain of events which occured with Christian Shephard's arrival on the island is being exploited to bring the O6 back by them accompanying the dead Locke.

from the 'and so it begins' mobisode we saw that CS was 'alive and kicking' directly after the crash.

yemi is slightly different because, if i remembert it correctly, eko found his body on the plane and it went missing at some point after - so perhaps there is something going on with family members being important too

Since we have a time-skipping Island, a time distortion in traveling to/from the Island, Lost-time (Mitelos) and time not only being of the essence but THE essence....it may be safe to say that TIME plays a big part in what happens when you arrive to the Island D.O.A.

perhaps, but i sincerely hope that time travel isn't used to explain every mystery of lost - that would be a big step down the ladder of originality for the show.

One can die on the Island and remain dead. One can die off the Island and remain dead off the Island. One can arrive dead on the Island before they are killed off the Island (Doc). ....So what happens if you die off the Island and your body is brought back to the Island to a time when you were alive??

i think its been pretty well established that there was no big time shift when flight 815 crashed on the island. CS was dead in sydney before the crash and appeared to be alive on (and off) the island numerous times after the crash.
Im pretty sure that the time travel element of the show wasnt instigated until Cuse arrived and became a producer (after JJ left) so my guess is that CS's resurection hasnt much to do with time travel, more to do with the 'special qualities' of the island.

Not bad. So Alpert helps facilitate getting the O6 back by sending Locke with the message. For some reason he has to die in the outside world as J.B. Then Ben and Ms. H take care of the rest? thats pretty much it - ms hawking appears to be able to pinpoint the event window that will get them back - but as ben says implies - it will all be for nothing unless Locke's body is safe.


Hate to nit pick, but we don't know "the ISLAND" can prevent someone from dying. Giving any power to "the Island" itself is one of pettest pet peeves when it comes to LOST.

fair enough,we dont know
so you are saying that the island has no special 'powers' or phenomena associated with it?

I'd rather look at the rules...you can't change the past, what has happened has happened... If Michael, for example, couldn't die off the Island before the freighter incident, it's MO that the reason was "he couldn't die off the Island because he already died" either on the freighter or in the original 815 crash.

again, michael's time line looks fairly linear so far, i think he couldnt die off the island because of his mission on the freighter. if he was already dead, wouldnt they have notices in the hospital?

Interesting ideas, BL! It does seem to me that if you're going to the Island, intentionally going there or not, you need a dead body with you. ...

thanks junie! - i think it is possible to find the island by accident as some seem to, and perhaps if you have 20 years to spare you might find it, but i think having the dead body of one of the island's annointed is as near as you get to a ticket :)

Also, we've been talking in other threads about the serious amount of family connections on the show. Not that it's a new topic of conversation, but I wonder if we've underestimated the importance of the families on the show. Does the Island's history always have to have members of a certain family on it in order to keep going?

see my answer to bm above junie - i agree that bloodlines are important - most of my theories revolve around them

perhaps, but i sincerely hope that time travel isn't used to explain every mystery of lost - that would be a big step down the ladder of originality for the show.

I don't think you'll be disappointed. So far TIME (not just time travel) has been a HUGE element.

We have seen characters from different times appear on and off the Island, we have Richard who doesn't age, a company called Mittelos (Lost time), FBYE, the Constant, the Orchid, Dharma's project to manipulate time, TLE's Valenzetti Equation used to predict how much time was left until the apocalypse, Faraday and Eloise, Ms. H, rockets that arrive later than they should, Doc's who arrive dead when they're still alive, scars that tend to heal in reverse time, radio programs from the past being broadcast in the present, twenty minute helicopter trips that take a full day, s.o.s signals looping for 16 years, minds getting unstuck in time, people physically being zapped 2+ years into the future and an Island that is in 1954 one minute and 1988 the next etc. etc.

Point being that you've been watching it all along and you're still here!:biggrin:

i think its been pretty well established that there was no big time shift when flight 815 crashed on the island.....Im pretty sure that the time travel element of the show wasnt instigated until Cuse arrived and became a producer (after JJ left) so my guess is that CS's resurection hasnt much to do with time travel, more to do with the 'special qualities' of the island. I can't imagine that JJ's original title "The Circle" was meant to be that far off from what we're seeing now. It all seems to fit too perfectly into what we have seen from day one. But who knows? Maybe if C&C were creative enough to turn Lost around from something that it was not originally intended to be.

Also, regarding the establishment of time on and off the Island....Imagine two earths with one hypothetically ten years behind the other. A plane takes off from earth A and crashes on earth B. Both have 24 hr days..... Those on earth A would be missing you for 100 days. You too would mark on your calender that you've been gone for 100 days. Still, you'd be living ten years "in the past" of your original earth A.

We know that one day off the Island seems about equal from one day on the Island. That doesn't mean the two are operating in the same time.


fair enough,we dont know....so you are saying that the island has no special 'powers' or phenomena associated with it?
I think it's location in time has the most to do with it's "specialness." If the Island was transplanted outside of this wormhole it seems to exist in, I believe it would be just like any other Island (JMO of course).


again, michael's time line looks fairly linear so far, i think he couldnt die off the island because of his mission on the freighter. if he was already dead, wouldnt they have notices in the hospital?

Think about it in terms more related to what we're seeing on the skipping Island....Now begin:

Ben sends creepy Walt and Michael off the Island. A kind hearted man of his word? Doubt it, this is a man who always has a plan.... He sends Micheal off the Island only to call him back again. Why Micheal? With all the clever, manipulating pro's at Ben's disposal, why did he choose Micheal (the bumblest of bumblers)??....Maybe because it HAD to be Michael because "it always had been" Michael.

There wouldn't have been notices or any sign in the "outside world." Michael died on the freighter. In this circle of events, it had to happen this way because it always happened this way. Michael's dying in the outside world before he died on the freighter would have possibly been "changing what already happened."

Don't mean to be argumentative....just giving food for thought.:)

....
I think it's location in time has the most to do with it's "specialness." If the Island was transplanted outside of this wormhole it seems to exist in, I believe it would be just like any other Island (JMO of course).
....

this is where we fundamentally disagree - whilst i agree that time is a huge element of the show (and have been on board with this for longer than many) i dont think time alone will explain the smoke monster, or the healing, or the fate issues, or the power of the numbers, or the horse that kate saw etc etc.

First of all, I have to say I agree 100% with BL's above statement. Not wanting to put backs up, but I think a lot of people believed Lost wasn't Sci-Fi for a long, long time and dismissed a whole array of ideas, and now they're accepting Time Travel, but, in so doing, assuming that it's only Time Travel, rather than thinking : Right, I should accept that TT just opens the Sci-Fi door to a whole load of weirdness.

Triangle, Schmiangle. (Just in case I hadn't put everyone's back up). :biggrin:

BL,
I'm very much on the same page as you with this Theory. You suggest that a dead body is the key to accessing the Island, while I've long suggested that everyone has to be dead to access the Island (The Jaws of Death (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=67760)).

While I think that Ben's suggestion that Jack say goodbye to his life supports the idea that they'll all have to die, there was an interesting Spoiler which, in my mind, leans more in the direction you're proposing.

For those who gauge which Spoilers to read and which to skip, this one is most definitely in the "Intriguing Teaser" category, rather than "Full-blown Revelation". But a Spoiler nonetheless.

Apparently, and I can't remember the exact wording, when they take Locke's body back there's also something that has to go with them.

So, like I say, that to me sounds more like recreating certain circumstances, or something mystical / supernatural. My first thought in terms of recreating the events, and I kind of like it, they have to take a dog with them. Don't forget Jack is suited up in a very similar fashion to that fateful day now too.

Apparently, and I can't remember the exact wording, when they take Locke's body back there's also something that has to go with them.

So, like I say, that to me sounds more like recreating certain circumstances, or something mystical / supernatural. My first thought in terms of recreating the events, and I kind of like it, they have to take a dog with them. Don't forget Jack is suited up in a very similar fashion to that fateful day now too.
As I recall...
...the "something" they need to take back with them comes in pairs and belonged to Jack's grandfather. I'm thinking cuff links, dice, or stones (one black, one white). That, or ruby slippers...LOL!

As I recall...
...the "something" they need to take back with them comes in pairs and belonged to Jack's grandfather. I'm thinking cuff links, dice, or stones (one black, one white). That, or ruby slippers...LOL!

ok i looked :redface::redface:

for me it can only be

white shoes

gosh im excited about the show at the moment :biggrin:

ok i looked :redface::redface:

for me it can only be

white shoes

gosh im excited about the show at the moment :biggrin:
Actually...that makes a heck of a lot of sense!

Actually...that makes a heck of a lot of sense!

actually

junie hit me up with that little spoiler yesterday - it was after i posted this theory though - she is witness to that :cool: - we have been talking about the shoes a lot at the queST
it does indirectly support the general idea that i have here though - especially if it is the shoes - that would be UNBELIEVABLY MINDBLOWING

my guess is that they were in the box ben took out of the vent - just the right size

First of all, I have to say I agree 100% with BL's above statement. Not wanting to put backs up, but I think a lot of people believed Lost wasn't Sci-Fi for a long, long time and dismissed a whole array of ideas, and now they're accepting Time Travel, but, in so doing, assuming that it's only Time Travel, rather than thinking : Right, I should accept that TT just opens the Sci-Fi door to a whole load of weirdness.

Triangle, Schmiangle. (Just in case I hadn't put everyone's back up). :biggrin:

some disparaging remark about hobbits should ensure you've covered all the bases;)

BL,
I'm very much on the same page as you with this Theory. You suggest that a dead body is the key to accessing the Island, while I've long suggested that everyone has to be dead to access the Island (The Jaws of Death (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=67760)).

While I think that Ben's suggestion that Jack say goodbye to his life supports the idea that they'll all have to die, there was an interesting Spoiler which, in my mind, leans more in the direction you're proposing.

For those who gauge which Spoilers to read and which to skip, this one is most definitely in the "Intriguing Teaser" category, rather than "Full-blown Revelation". But a Spoiler nonetheless.

Apparently, and I can't remember the exact wording, when they take Locke's body back there's also something that has to go with them.

So, like I say, that to me sounds more like recreating certain circumstances, or something mystical / supernatural. My first thought in terms of recreating the events, and I kind of like it, they have to take a dog with them. Don't forget Jack is suited up in a very similar fashion to that fateful day now too.



Luc, see my exchange with BM above about the spoiler

but i agree that death seems to play a part in getting you to the island - it makes you wonder what jack knew when he was about to throw himself off the bridge!

having watched TLP, i think it is (fairly) clear that the time-skipping seems to be related to arrivals on the island - as if the island is scrolling through the times when people first got there in the hope that the missing souls will arrive and be accounted for so as things can get back to normal - i would include the birth of aaron as one of these arrivals and would speculate that another jump will occur when danielle gives birth to alex.

i thought for a moment towards the end of the ep that ben may be dead too when they get there but perhaps that is unlikely, maybe he will tell sun that jin is still alive and she will go with them.

looks like they will ditch aaron though...

but i agree that death seems to play a part in getting you to the island - it makes you wonder what jack knew when he was about to throw himself off the bridge!
Say true? I feel like the evidence is increasingly against this possibility. Jack couldn't die -- neither could Mike. Then there's Dan, Charlotte, Miles, and everyone else from the freighter who made it to the Island at some point. Don't they basically disprove the notion that you have to die to do so?

Say true? I feel like the evidence is increasingly against this possibility. Jack couldn't die -- neither could Mike. Then there's Dan, Charlotte, Miles, and everyone else from the freighter who made it to the Island at some point. Don't they basically disprove the notion that you have to die to do so?

thats right bm,i dont think that you have to die to access the island, but it appears to be an option for the right people - a measure of last resort ;)

---

this link could explain a lot - the afterlife in ancient egypt (http://www.egyptologyonline.com/the_afterlife.htm)

After death, the "ka" would be "at rest" whilst the body was prepared and transformed into a mummy. The ka then needed to be reactivated so that the spiritual transformation of rebirth could take place. The deceased could then travel to join their "ka", and the link to the land of living through their tomb would then be established.

So, I'm thinking about the idea that death is the last-chance way for some people to get back to the Island. Why? Why can't Locke just leave the Island, tell the O6ers that their friends are dying on the Island and won't get any better until the O6ers return? Something like that? Why does Locke have to die for this reunion between the O6ers and the Leftbehinds to happen?

i think it's because they dont know where the island is at any given time junie - i think thats why ben told john that once you turned the wheel you can never go back.

so john has to die in order that he is bought back to the island - christian shephard style, and the rest of them will get there by sticking with locke's body - thats what this theory speculates

Meaning that if you have a dead body with you, the Island will definitely pull you back to it? I wonder if CS knew this was true and knew that his dead body would pull Jack and flight 815 to the Island? I'm ignoring Desmond's role in everything, of course...

OT, but I hope that we get some CS injected into this year's storyline. I would like some confirmation that he was on the Island as a young doctor...

Meaning that if you have a dead body with you, the Island will definitely pull you back to it? I wonder if CS knew this was true and knew that his dead body would pull Jack and flight 815 to the Island? I'm ignoring Desmond's role in everything, of course...

OT, but I hope that we get some CS injected into this year's storyline. I would like some confirmation that he was on the Island as a young doctor...

im not sure if it can be any dead body Junie - it has to be a special one

like you say - i think christian has a history with the island or the Shephard tribe all have a one-way ticket because of some older family history.

and we're back to bloodlines again!

i think christian 'resurrected' on the island is still CS - he acts just like the character we see in jack's flashbacks, i dont think he is just a 'vessel' for someone else's spirit (although thats JMO) so he must have a special role to play - hence his body 'fatefully' found it's way back to the island - just like Locke's will

Oh, I definitely like your theory! Yes, there is a pattern, I think so, too, but, as you said, hard to nail it. Christian Shepard's and Locke's bodies as "beacons" back to the Island, they'll end up there no matter what - somehow sounds a lot like course-correction.

IF it is course-correction, that would require their final resting places actually to be on the Island. Maybe there is a special place, or a special way, on the Island to make the ultimate sacrifice, and if you do so, or have always done so, or your ancestors have always done so, that allows you to leave the Island, and shepherd/guide some souls to it.

For what purpose, that's were it gets murky for me. Supposedly, Locke is trying to bring the O6 (it's actually the O5, because Locke doesn't mention Aaron) back to save the left-behinders from time jumping. But - we do not know if the time jumping has anything to do with them leaving at all - or do we? If Ben had not turned the Wheel, it's likely that the Widmores would have gotten their hands on the Island, but would there have been any time jumping?

It's actually the Shepards who tell Locke to move the Island. Ben thinks that Jacob wants the Island moved. Well, he got conned. Or is he? It's not been revealed yet, if Ben could see Jacob, and if he did, we don't know, if that Jacob were Christian or someone else.

Family lines certainly are involved - Jack's grandpa, Christian, Jack, Aaron, being one line. Who's the other (Others ;)? How do John and Ben fit in? And what's up with these two killing their fathers on-Island?

Christian's motives for bringing his son to the Island could be more straightforward, carry on some yet unknown Island family tradition. Replace him, follow in his footsteps (shoes!;), or whatever.

Time is where I get totally lost. For Locke's body being able to guide anyone back to the Island due to course-correction, he'd have to die on-Island on the same day he dies off-Island. This is where (when?) I'm starting to get nosebleeds.

.....
It's actually the Shepards who tell Locke to move the Island. Ben thinks that Jacob wants the Island moved. Well, he got conned. Or is he? It's not been revealed yet, if Ben could see Jacob, and if he did, we don't know, if that Jacob were Christian or someone else.

..

hi Calliope! - yes it's still not clear if they are all on the same side but i am starting to think that they are. Its aaron that convinced me, CS said something like he's where he's supposed to be - so if he doesnt come back it looks like ben and CS are on the same page?

.....Time is where I get totally lost. For Locke's body being able to guide anyone back to the Island due to course-correction, he'd have to die on-Island on the same day he dies off-Island. This is where (when?) I'm starting to get nosebleeds.

not sure i get this bit. if he left the island like ben, for instance, there wouldnt be a locke on the island as well as off - unless he went back in time as he left,but ben went forward. i guess with the skipping the whole thing could be even more unpredictable

I'm starting to believe that Jack's grandfather Shephard is Jacob. And he has a lot to do with the Dharma Initiative... Mikhail said that he was recruited by a magnificent man (not Ben, although possibly Widmore, but probably Jacob).

The last audio podcast suggests Dharma is still involved on the island despite Ben deposing Widmore, and that the Purge happens earlier than we have supposed. I wonder now if Horace's message to John in his dream was actually from a past moment when Locke actually met Horace... he then remembers the dream the way Desmond gets Daniel's message to go to Oxford

not sure i get this bit. if he left the island like ben, for instance, there wouldnt be a locke on the island as well as off - unless he went back in time as he left,but ben went forward. i guess with the skipping the whole thing could be even more unpredictable

Yes, that's the question - how will Locke leave the Island? If he turns the Wheel like Ben, he'll possibly end up in the future, too, or in the past, but some timeshift will be likely, I guess. If Ben told the truth about it, the Wheel-turner could not return to the Island. Maybe Ben simply lied, but then why would Locke have to die? Or if you can return only dead, why would the Island call Locke's body back to it?

I'm not happy at the thought of doubles, two Bens, two Lockes, and so on. I do not like it at all, but we nearly had Locke meet Locke on the Island. And there's the ghosts, or whatever they are, so, you know, there's supposedly still Charlie's body somewhere in the water, and Charlie visiting Hurley.

So, I suppose a future Locke could die on the Island, while a past Locke could still leave the Island. Am I making any sense? I can't really wrap my head around these things. Locke's suicide off-Island is - we don't know the date - but say, it's on January 4th, 2008, it must also have been that same date on the Island.

I have no idea if it's possible, but suppose, the left-behinds on the Island jump to January 4th, 2008. Locke dies. Then there's another flash, the group ends up in October 2006. Would they have Locke still with them, alive? If so, he then probably could leave the Island in whatever way's available to him, end up in December 2007, visit the O6 and simply stay off-Island till January 4th in 2008, and because that's the day of his death, it already has happened, he dies. It's the right time, but the wrong place. Then the Island (or the Universe) will have a "reason" to call him back to the Island no matter what. As Island-time seems to be out of sync with World-time, maybe it'll be January 4th on the Island in 70 hours - the event window Locke's body will be on the Island with or without company.

It's messy, I know. The real solution will be much more straightforward, I suspect. ;)

BL, I like your idea of John's body being "called back" to the island, and a I think there may be a parallel to Christian's situation. I'm not sure it's "the island" that's doing the summoning, however. I seems likely to me that there are competing forces at work here. I'm thinking that most, if not all, of the island arrivals we know of (The Black Rock, the DHARMA initiative, Rousseau and her crew, Yemi's plane, Desmond, and flight 815) were orchestrated in some way, but not necessarily by the same person or group. Although not all of these arrivals included a dead body, Richard may have a special interest in acquiring the corpses of special people who have a history on the island. This may be how he "trapped" Jacob, and how he plans to trap Christian (I don't think he's been fully successful with this, as Christian seems to have a mind of his own). Perhaps Lock will be his next victim...although I'm thinking that Ben and John have a trick up their sleeve. Richard may have his own plans for John's return trip, but it looks like Ben/Hawking must rely on the "event window" if Ben is to tag along.

God help us all.

Why do the O6 have to go back? Because they already did.

John has to die to give them the Faith they need to do it again.

The Whispers are Beautiful.

another similarity between Christian and Locke that hasnt been mentioned would be the aliases.

Locke obviously as Jeremy Bentham

S2E20 Christian "Ohhh. Now let's not use real names uh... I tell you what. Why don't you pick a name for me, then I'll pick one for you."

another similarity between Christian and Locke that hasnt been mentioned would be the aliases.."

Throw Candle/Hallowax/Chang in that mix too!

I tend to think the package Ben took from the heating duct had something to do with the items Richard presented to Locke at his Dalai Lama test. But what you suggest, BL, would indeed be cool!

I tend to think the package Ben took from the heating duct had something to do with the items Richard presented to Locke at his Dalai Lama test. But what you suggest, BL, would indeed be cool!

that may be a good call bm

and i may be getting over excited about this spoiler (i dont normally partake of them)

but

the last time we saw CS on the island, when he tells locke to move it, he was wearing different clothes and black workboots for the first time! - i wonder if that connects with ben or ms hawking possibly having the white shoes?

The simple answer is that Locke turned the FDW and he can never return to the island... that is, unless he's dead. Here's where I think it may get kind of weird.

It seems Ben needs to be kept alive... otherwise I think Widmore would have killed him in the two - three years Ben has roamed the earth since leaving the island. It may be that he can't die yet because he has already made it to a future past that date. Which is why Ben can't make it back to the island.

I'm not sure what it means, and I'm sure there could be a TT explanation, but what I have observed is a possible, uh, "splitting" process 1. There is a Flight 815 in the Sunda Trench and one on the Island. One plane is full of dead passengers, one has 70 odd survivors and over a hundred deaths. 2. In the deleted scene (forgot it's name) Ben is retrieving a stash from the rocks, but wait, Ben is also dead on the ground nearby. 3. Naomi's helicopter flies away then crashes into the water... Her conversation with Frank implied that she and he were the only pilots. Is there a sunken helicopter with Naomi's body in it? 4. When Desmond returns from CTT to 1996, he wakes up naked in the jungle... is there a dead Desmond under the Swan?

Those white shoes! Locke will be wearing white shoes... We have assumed those were Christian's shoes in the Pilot, but they might be Locke's... he will be wearing them in the coffin... and when he arrives on the island just when 815 crashes he will have no shoes and he'll be able to walk... the white shoes are probably like the white shoes the Others wore during Colleen's funeral... a symbol of rebirth. He already has a body on the Island... is it that the process will combine his future consciousness with his past consciousness?

Now since Christian is wearing white shoes as well, I would definitely say that bringing his body to the island was a purposeful event, and allowed Christian to be resurrected... which means he also had a body on the island waiting for his consciousness to return and combine?
100%
Also, to go along with the theory here... Doc Ray's dead body washing ashore... is it possible the body that washed ashore was his "twin" after being "split"... because of the scar "regressing".. His other half continues to heal. Was he the dead body that allowed the freighter to reach the island... or like I think, you can't enter or leave the island 9at least by FDW) without sacrificing a "twin." Somehow this ties into good and bad, light and dark, mirror images.

Also, to go along with the theory here... Doc Ray's dead body washing ashore... is it possible the body that washed ashore was his "twin" after being "split"... because of the scar "regressing".. .

Two interesting pieces regarding signals, time and travelers on the Island

.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel#cite_note-Jarrell-15#cite_note-Jarrell-15) However, in the case of a hypothetical signal moving faster than light, there would always be some frames in which the signal was received before it was sent, so that the signal could be said to have moved backwards in time. And since one of the two fundamental postulates of special relativity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postulates_of_special_relativity) says that the laws of physics should work the same way in every inertial frame, then if it is possible for signals to move backwards in time in any one frame, it must be possible in all frames. This means that if observer A sends a signal to observer B which moves FTL (faster than light) in A's frame but backwards in time in B's frame, and then B sends a reply which moves FTL in B's frame but backwards in time in A's frame, it could work out that A receives the reply before sending the original signal, a clear violation of causality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality_(physics)) in every frame.

Time dilation is permitted by Albert Einstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein)'s special (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity) and general (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity) theories of relativity. These theories state that, relative to a given observer, time passes more slowly for bodies moving quickly relative to that observer, or bodies that are deeper within a gravity well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_well).[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel#cite_note-41#cite_note-41) For example, a clock which is moving relative to the observer will be measured to run slow in that observer's rest frame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rest_frame); as a clock approaches the speed of light it will almost slow to a stop, although it can never quite reach light speed so it will never completely stop. For two clocks moving inertially (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_frame_of_reference) (not accelerating) relative to one another, this effect is reciprocal, with each clock measuring the other to be ticking slower. However, the symmetry is broken if one clock accelerates, as in the twin paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_paradox) where one twin stays on Earth while the other travels into space, turns around (which involves acceleration), and returns—in this case both agree the traveling twin has aged less. General relativity states that time dilation effects also occur if one clock is deeper in a gravity well than the other, with the clock deeper in the well ticking more slowly; this effect must be taken into account when calibrating the clocks on the satellites of the Global Positioning System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System), and it could lead to significant differences in rates of aging for observers at different distances from a black hole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_hole).

Time dilation does answer the question of how the doc is alive on the freighter and dead on the island, but time dilation doesn't explain his "unhealing" scar, not just is the scar less healed, it has reverted to its earlier wound state before the doc's death even, to where he has stiches (again). I am just questioning if the dead doc ever washed up on the island, that perhaps it was the body of his "dead twin" that did... one that was created when the freighter reached the island or got to the island... because when you think of it, we haven't really seen what happens when a boat or plane doesn't "crash" on the island, and how that freighter "really" reached the island.

a question was asked on the latest official podcast which could be very relevent to this theory :

Q - "the oceanic 6 needs to take john locke's body back with them to the island. Oceanic 815 also had a body on board, Christian Shephard, so my question is 'was christian Shephard's body in any way a factor in the 815 flight making it to the island? and if Locke might not be gone for good as ben suggested, is ressurection of a sort possible for christian. i know you guys said definitively that he is dead but is he more than just an image the island is using to communicate?"

Damon gives very little away in his answer but i'll spoiler font just in case

Damon ...i think that this is an excellent question, and in the next episode 316 you might find that someone is talking about john locke's body in relation to CS's body and the word 'proxy' might be mentioned..
thats your word for the day - proxy

so presumably (again relating to what was said in the podcast)
ms hawking is the person doing the talking and the 'proxy' might be CS,or in the O6's case, Locke

Spoiler:
Damon ...i think that this is an excellent question, and in the next episode 316 you might find that someone is talking about john locke's body in relation to CS's body and the word 'proxy' might be mentioned..
thats your word for the day - proxy

someone authorized to act for another. a replacement.

Is bringing Locke's body a "replacement" for the original bringing of C.S's body?

While I don't subscribe to the theory that having a dead body on board is a prerequisite for a plane landing on the Island, in this case it may be a way of insuring the "has to happen this way because it always happened this way" balance.

But why Locke/Jeremy Bentham? Couldn't you just board any corpse?

My other thought regarding proxy is that C.S is speaking for Jacob, acting as his proxy. Now maybe it's Locke's turn?

But why Locke/Jeremy Bentham? Couldn't you just board any corpse?


Maybe it has to be someone with a strong connection to the island.
I've always presumed CS had one...

Maybe it has to be someone with a strong connection to the island.
I've always presumed CS had one...

agreed.

Lostorfound, i'm not suggesting that the only way to access the island is in the company of a dead body, it is possible to find the island purely by accident as some have. it is also possible to find it as widmore did (but it took him 20 years and now it has moved or is moving)

i guess if you are part of the island's royal family, or special in some way, or needed in some way then there is a mechanism (fate?) that will facilitate your final journey to the island as a corpse. If ms hawking knows how this mechanism works, she can exploit it to get the O6 back too.

---

remember CS talking to Locke about sacrifice at the end of TPID?
it reminded me (sort of) of his speech to jack :
S1 E11 "I know I have been hard on you, but that is how you make a soft metal into steel. That is why you are the most gifted young surgeon in this city. And this... this is a career that is all about the greater good. I've had to sacrifice certain aspects of my relationship with you so that hundreds and thousands of patients will live because of your extraordinary skills. I know it's a long... long time coming. What happened yesterday, I promise you will never happen again. And after all... what I've given... this is... this is not just about my career, Jack. It's my life."

---

just thinking out loud here -
what i wonder is how much of a 'life' will jeremy bentham have before his death? - could it be that he is sent back many years before present time and has to exist until the O6 arrive back? - could this be what CS was doing for many years too? is that what drove him to drink? or was drink his chosen method of death?

I got the impression Locke as Bentham was a short lived experience, and based on the shape of his body in the coffin, I think he was pretty much the same age more or less as he was when he left the island. If you think of the wheel being off its axle and moving back and forth and the way the Left Behinds have been jumping back and forth, then Locke pushes the wheel in the same direction Ben did into the future.

I think it's a huge deal that Locke was the one meant to turn the wheel in the first place according to CS. That means Locke wasn't supposed to have endured the time jumping/flashes and Ben wasn't supposed to leave the Island. Does this mean that when Ben did turn the wheel, it was because Jacob wanted Locke to stay on the island? Or was Ben being "smart enough" again not to be the one who had to die (to return?) Or both?

Also.. I think moving the wheel clockwise sends the mover into the future off the island and the Left Behinds to the past... the mirror thing again.

I

....I think it's a huge deal that Locke was the one meant to turn the wheel in the first place according to CS. That means Locke wasn't supposed to have endured the time jumping/flashes and Ben wasn't supposed to leave the Island. Does this mean that when Ben did turn the wheel, it was because Jacob wanted Locke to stay on the island? Or was Ben being "smart enough" again not to be the one who had to die (to return?) Or both?
....

i agree simone - in fact i have always (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showpost.php?p=2040629&postcount=71) suspected that it was ben's way of gaining control of a losing hand

......
while on the subject of ben, im not sure that Jacob actually wanted him to turn the wheel and leave the island. - i think ben decided to go when he realized that the others didnt want him anymore.
perhaps Locke was meant to go instead - it appears he did so eventually (although we dont know how yet).

......

perhaps it was ben's way of gaining favor again and making the island/the others realise that they couldnt manage without him
and of course there is his need to avenge his daughter's death - but i hope that he doesnt kill penny, that he was telling widmore to misdirect his attention....

I was watching White Rabbit again the other night and totally thought of Locke's coffin upon seeing Christian's in the cave.

On an unrelated note, but apropos of our earlier discussion, I just had to share a really cool speculation posted on my blog by LostInDc. That box Ben took out of the heating duct? It was the box of chocolates containing the gun that Sun received. It's all part of Ben's manipulation to get them back to the Island...

I was watching White Rabbit again the other night and totally thought of Locke's coffin upon seeing Christian's in the cave.

On an unrelated note, but apropos of our earlier discussion, I just had to share a really cool speculation posted on my blog by LostInDc. That box Ben took out of the heating duct? It was the box of chocolates containing the gun that Sun received. It's all part of Ben's manipulation to get them back to the Island...

i like it BM! - that would be some brass neck that ben has - giving someone a gun in order to shoot himself and having the confidence in his own manipulations to talk sun out of it. :eek2:

for now though i will stick to my speculation that ben took

the white sneakers

out of the vent :cool:

As you know, BL, I 100% agree with you...

Do you know if we see CS in this week's episode?

... what i am most confident about is that the chain of events which occured with Christian Shephard's arrival on the island is being exploited to bring the O6 back by them accompanying the dead Locke...


so i was on the right track about the mechanism by which the O6 would get back to the island - but my reasons are looking a bit off so far.,
Ms Hawkings explanation of the process involved, whilst it explained some of what was going on, left a LOT unexplained.

Goodbye science, Hello faith.
I got the feeling that Ms hawking gave a very simplified account of the science part of the explanation, but what about Christian Shephard and his shoes?
Why is CS in such an important role on the island?
was flight 815 the start of it or was CS the proxy for someone else?
why was claire and Jack on flight 815 too?
and it seemed like there was some 'intervention' to get sayid on the flight.
(i wonder if that was ben? - i dont think he went to kill penny)

Goodbye science, Hello faith.
)

Believe it or not, it's still science (although it does require a "leap of faith")
The Novikov Principle does not allow a time traveler to change the past in any way, but it does allow them to affect past events in a way that produces no inconsistencies—for example, a time traveler could rescue people from a disaster, and replace them with realistic corpses seconds before it occurs.

Believe it or not, it's still science (although it does require a "leap of faith")

does novokov say anything about said corpses coming back to life?;)

The weird thing about all of the "Shephards" is that if Kate's pregnant there'll be yet another on Craphole.

does novokov say anything about said corpses coming back to life?;)
I wish!!!

I wonder if shoes in general...now that we know the mystery of the white tennis shoes...have something to do with reincarnation.


Boone is wearing shoes in Locke's drug induced hallucination.

Ben's mother, deadAna Lucia, and deadCharlie have appeared barefooted...

Juliet is not wearing shoes when she first wakes up in the submarine and the camera focuses on this. She is led straight to the ladder and you can notice she is no longer barefoot. Once she comes out of the top the camera again focuses on her feet, which now have shoes on them.

the Others who walk barefooted...

oh and most recently Sawyer is walking around barefooted too.

another similarity between Christian and Locke that hasnt been mentioned would be the aliases.

Locke obviously as Jeremy Bentham

S2E20 Christian "Ohhh. Now let's not use real names uh... I tell you what. Why don't you pick a name for me, then I'll pick one for you."

Thanks for that BL, I just love it...

Another similarity is that they both might have "faked" their deaths. I really think Locke is, and I've always been 50-50 on CS. Locke by his own choice, to help the O5 get back; CS maybe by someone else's hand, altho he walked eyes-open and voluntarily into the situation.

Magnus Hanso - did he hie on the Black Rock before it reached the island? is that why it arrived there?
I'm now totally onboard (har, har) with this. Do you suppose they're a sacrifice the Island demands? New bodies? Is this why the Others burn their dead?

I'm now totally onboard (har, har) with this. Do you suppose they're a sacrifice the Island demands? New bodies? Is this why the Others burn their dead?

perhaps it represents the circumstances of the first ever arrivals on the island? (perhaps they managed to leave again and the island has been looking for them ever since?) - its become a 'glitch' or a 'ghost in the machine' if you like. The island is constantly searching for a bunch of people with a dead body and a musical instrument?

hey - i wonder if that was why widmore bought the first mate's ledger from the black rock? - he needed it just as jack needed christian's shoes.

ELOISE: Jack... who do you think? You need to, as best you can, recreate the conditions of the original flight... which is why you need to give John something of your father's. You have to get something that belonged to your father, and you need to give it to John. 100%
Thanks for that BL, I just love it...

Another similarity is that they both might have "faked" their deaths. I really think Locke is, and I've always been 50-50 on CS. Locke by his own choice, to help the O5 get back; CS maybe by someone else's hand, altho he walked eyes-open and voluntarily into the situation.

im pretty sure there is something we dont know about christians death - and if i remember rightly the others knew quite a lot about it too - didnt they have a copy of his autopsy report?

eta
juliet to jack
"I know that you're a spinal surgeon based out of St. Sebastian's Hospital in Los Angeles. I know that you went to Columbia and you graduated med school a year faster than anyone else. I know that you were married. Only once and you contested the divorce. I know your father died in Sydney. I know this because I have a copy of his autopsy report."

hey - i wonder if that was why widmore bought the first mate's ledger from the black
rock? - he needed it just as jack needed christian's shoes.Great, great idea, BL!