I know the writers are trying their best to avoid major paradoxes with this time travel business, but it is nearly unavoidable. I don't think this paradox is too major of one.

The paradox I have thought about was the Alpert and Locke meeting. Richard told John that John had told him where to meet him when they met in the past. That doesn't bother me that much (although it clearly supports the idea that the future can be changed ever so slightly). The paradox to me comes when Alpert said that he wouldn't recognize John in the past and that he should give him the compass as some way of proving they met. The problem with this is that at some point, John would have had to have gone back and met Richard the first time without the compass to let Richard know where to find him. This sets about the first chain of events. But now, as we will view things from here on out, John will jump back with the compass to show Richard.

I guess the way to get around this is for the creators of Lost to say that events in the past or the future can be changed. Locke could have jumped back and, through another way, convinced Richard of what was going on. Then Richard in the future gives Locke the compass to make things go easier the next time he jumps back to meet Richard in the past.

It is confusing, but you have to love time travel!

well you have to remember that ANY time travel creates a paradox. there has yet to be a movie/show/book that can present time travel without creating a paradox. time travel is not possible, thus a paradox is created.

if i jumped into the past for 10 seconds and did nothing, that alone would create a paradox.


still the writers are doing a good job keeping the paradoxes to a minimum.

if i jumped into the past for 10 seconds and did nothing, that alone would create a paradox.
.

Not if it had "always been that way," which is kind of what Daniel and the show is getting at.
And the movie "Primer" is free of paradoxes. Except one, and that is dealt with in a creative fashion.

Not if it had "always been that way."
And the movie "Primer" is free of paradoxes. Except one, and that is dealt with in a creative fashion.


that's the thing, it can't always be that way. Its the whole chicken and the egg thing. you can't have traveled back in time if you were already there before you traveled back in time.


never seen that one. the only movie i have seen that even comes close to avoiding a paradox is the crappy remake of the time machine. they explain it away as, you can not change the past no matter what you try because if those things did not happen, then you would have never built the time machine and traveled back in time in the first place.

still, any time travel is a paradox because at some point there has to be an original time line. one where you come to the point you decide to travel back in time. the minute you trvael back in time you completly change the timeline becaused you now are at a point you have never been in before, yet its in your past. again, the chicken and the egg arguement.

that's the thing, it can't always be that way. Its the whole chicken and the egg thing. you can't have traveled back in time if you were already there before you traveled back in time.


From the perspective of someone who was there "10 seconds ago," you are there. There was never a time when you weren't. Otherwise, you can't be there. Just like Daniel said, "If it didn't happen, it can't happen."

There are basically three models of time-travel logic. One, as in "Back to the Future," says that changing something in the past creates an alternate timeline, and that an infinite number of timelines are possible. Another says that changing something in the past does not create a new timeline but instead "revises" history.
And the third, which is what they seem to be going with on Lost, says that history is immutable and cannot be changed. If it didn't happen, then it can't happen. No matter what you do to try and change it, that's what happened "in the first place." In this model, paradoxes can't really exist.

I guess I don't see the problem. Why would Locke have to go back without the compass? This could just mean there are two compasses at that time Locke shows Alpert his compass (1-the compass Locke has, and 2- the compass Alpert will give to Locke... If the losties traveled back in time and are on the island at the same time as their past selves...why can't there be two compasses existing at the same time?

I loved the dialogue:
"Here, take the compass"
"What does it do?"
"It points north!".


hahaha......

well you have to remember that ANY time travel creates a paradox. there has yet to be a movie/show/book that can present time travel without creating a paradox. time travel is not possible, thus a paradox is created.

The Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Time's Arrow".

Data's head is found in a cave in San Francisco that has been sealed for 500 years. Trying to find out how it had got there, the Enterprise crew travels to a planet where some weird aliens travel into Earth's past, and some of the Enterprise crew members (including Data) also end up in the 19th century. There they meet Mark Twain who helps them. The episode ends with Data's head getting severed, the Enterprise crew travel back to their time with Data's body but leave the head behind, and in the 24th century they reattach Data's head to his body.

Also, when news of Data's head having been found spread, Guinan, a centuries-old character who serves as a bartender on board the Enterprise, mumbled that it's "coming full circle". The Enterprise crew meet Guinan in the 19th century, who also helps them.

So the time-travel had not only already been part of their past before they travelled back in time - in trying to solve the mystery of Data's head in a cave, they travel back in time and cause the events that lead to the discovery of the head in the first place.

The above TNG example episode is where I think the episodes will be headed shortly. Also in a recent interview Im sure I heard Darlton say that

Those left behind are going to both experience and maybe even create some of the Island's backstory.

I suppose, we are talking here about Ontological Paradox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_paradox).

In the scene with compass I reminded one novel by Harry Harrison about time travel: a protagonist travels to his childhood and gives himself (as a child) a letter. The child takes this letter, he grows up and deside some day to travel back to his childhood and to give this letter to himself as a child -

the problem is in this case, a letter wasn't written by him, it travelled in time without beeing written.

the problem is in this case, a letter wasn't written by him, it travelled in time without beeing written.

Yeah, that's the problem that needs to be avoided. If something travels back in time, at one point there need to be two of it, even if they're in different locations.

The same problem applies with a fan theory about the two stones Jack found with Adam and Eve: The theory suggests that Adam and Eve are Jack and Kate, and they have the stones because Jack took them. Which means the stones are in a time loop with no beginning and no end, they don't come from anywhere and keep going back in time. Which makes no sense.

Hey, I got another example for non-paradox time travel. The short story "All Your Zombies" by Robert A. Heinlein.

A baby is dropped by an orphanage, grows up, meets an older man who seduces her, she gets pregnant, she delivers the baby but it quickly disappears, doctors discover she's a hermaphrodite, somehow they have to change her into a male to save her life, the now male protagonist ends up in a bar, the bartender reveals a time machine, takes the protagonist back so he can seduced and impregnate his own younger self, then travel forward in time, take the newborn baby, take it back in time, drop it at the orphanage... then the bartender drops the protagonist to a time-travel agency for training.

And it turns out the bartender is an older version of the protagonist...

That's the concept taken to an extreme.

That's the concept taken to an extreme.

That sounds interesting, I've to read it :-)
Anyway, I think, we have to take a look for this paradox in the show - since constructing of time travels is never error-free.

time travel is not possible, thus a paradox is created.


But it is possible. Just go on top of a tall building, and you're travelling to the future.

But it is possible. Just go on top of a tall building, and you're travelling to the future.

Excellent point! It's true that time is not fixed. It's off, even by a miniscule amount, the distance between the ground level and from the top.

There is a bit of changing, like how Charlie died. He could have died any number of ways, but he was still going to die. But if the future can't be changed, then why the dire warning to Desmond from Mrs. Hawking???

The problem with this is that at some point, John would have had to have gone back and met Richard the first time without the compass to let Richard know where to find him.

Google "closed timelike curve" :)

-steve

Excellent point! It's true that time is not fixed. It's off, even by a miniscule amount, the distance between the ground level and from the top.


um... what? i hope you're not suggesting that people on the 20th floor of a building are "in the future" relative to the people on the 1st floor... distance has nothing to do with it.

what i got out of the "go to the top of the building and you're in the future" post was that we are all always moving forward in time...

actually, i hope you were suggesting that b/c i want to know the thought progression that resulted in that belief. i'm very interested! i've never heard of time being thought of as a vector field... especially one with radial symmetry like that b/c that would assume there's a "source" point at the center. and why that would be at the center of the earth, i don't know...

Excellent point! It's true that time is not fixed. It's off, even by a miniscule amount, the distance between the ground level and from the top.

Yes, by Einstein's theories time travel to the future is possible, but not time travel to the past. In fact, when you travel on a jet time is actually moving slower for you than people on the ground. Hence, you have (in theory) traveled into the future.

As a child, Locke was presented with a number of items and asked to show which were his. The compass is one of the items he chose. Hasn't Locke always had a compass since Season 1?

Locke may not remember Richard testing him - but I have no doubt that Richard remembers testing him.

So where I'm getting at is all dependent upon when he sees Richard and gives him the compass. If it is in a time after Richard tested him - then the "it always happened" makes a little more sense, because Locke could have given Richard his compass, told him his name - and click - Richard remembers testing the boy - that the boy chose a compass as one of his items and believe him. Richard would then have the compass to give Locke in the future and be able to tell him that it is important to give it to Richard as proof that what he says is true.

Still kind of a weird loop - but this whole space/time scenario is a little weird and requires a leap of faith.

I don't have a problem with the scenario. However, I would like to know why only non-native others are affected by the time shifting.

The paradox I have thought about was the Alpert and Locke meeting. Richard told John that John had told him where to meet him when they met in the past. That doesn't bother me that much (although it clearly supports the idea that the future can be changed ever so slightly). The paradox to me comes when Alpert said that he wouldn't recognize John in the past and that he should give him the compass as some way of proving they met. The problem with this is that at some point, John would have had to have gone back and met Richard the first time without the compass to let Richard know where to find him. This sets about the first chain of events. But now, as we will view things from here on out, John will jump back with the compass to show Richard.
I think the conversation between Richard and Locke hints that Locke informs Richard about being shot in the future, not in the past. It went something like this:

Locke: How did you know there is a bullet in my leg?
Rich: You told me.
Locke: No. I never said it was a bullet.
Rich: You will.

um... what? i hope you're not suggesting that people on the 20th floor of a building are "in the future" relative to the people on the 1st floor... distance has nothing to do with it.

what i got out of the "go to the top of the building and you're in the future" post was that we are all always moving forward in time...

actually, i hope you were suggesting that b/c i want to know the thought progression that resulted in that belief. i'm very interested! i've never heard of time being thought of as a vector field... especially one with radial symmetry like that b/c that would assume there's a "source" point at the center. and why that would be at the center of the earth, i don't know...
Recently I heard that time moves slower as you move farther away from from a gravitational source. That's why clocks on satelittes in space are designed to move differently than clocks on Earth.

I think the conversation between Richard and Locke hints that Locke informs Richard about being shot in the future, not in the past. It went something like this:

Locke: How did you know there is a bullet in my leg?
Rich: You told me.
Locke: No. I never said it was a bullet.
Rich: You will.


Recently I heard that time moves slower as you move farther away from from a gravitational source. That's why clocks on satelittes in space are designed to move differently than clocks on Earth.

I disagree, I think Locke tells Alpert in Locke's future but Alpert's past. Locke will time shift to a time when Richard doesnt know him and Locke will tell him.

Time is different than aging. Regardless of how time is measured, I'm still aging, so it doesnt matter if I'm hopping around in time, My clock is still ticking. So if I hop on a plane and it takes me 2 hours to fly 8 time zones west, technically I'm 6 hours younger, but physically, I'm 2 hours older.

So its not that time is moving slower in space... its just the way we measure it is off.

Milleama, you're probably right about that. I was thinking of Richard's statement in a "Flashes Before Your Eyes" perspective... and that Richard is remembering his future because he had already lived it. But your interpretation is probably more likely.

Also, I took the time to look it up... Gravity slows down time, so it would actually move faster in space. Theoretically, it has nothing to do with the way time is measured. If we both sychronize our watches in NY, and you take a 4 hour trip to California and call me, we will both agree that 4 hours have passed. But if you took a trip out in space and called me 4 hours later, my watch would be a few seconds behind.

Not only would our time measurement devices be out of synch, but you truly would have only aged a few seconds more than you would have if you had stayed on Earth. In space, molecular activity would speed up just as your watch had... causing you to age quicker. Although, you would not notice these differences.

If you were on a planet with a strong gravitational pull, and you called me, your voice would sound deeper and slower to me. Mine would sound higher pitched and quicker than usual to you. We would both feel and sound seemingly normal to ourselves, but the relative difference between the speed of time could be noticed when compared simultaneously.

The paradox I have thought about was the Alpert and Locke meeting. Richard told John that John had told him where to meet him when they met in the past. That doesn't bother me that much (although it clearly supports the idea that the future can be changed ever so slightly). The paradox to me comes when Alpert said that he wouldn't recognize John in the past and that he should give him the compass as some way of proving they met. The problem with this is that at some point, John would have had to have gone back and met Richard the first time without the compass to let Richard know where to find him. This sets about the first chain of events. But now, as we will view things from here on out, John will jump back with the compass to show Richard.


I guess I totally missed this because I thought that Richard simply found out from Ethan that he had run into someone by the beechcraft wreck who said they were John Locke, appointed by Ben to be the new leader, and that Ethan had shot him in the leg. So from that Richard knew where to find Locke. But somehow Richard also knew when to look for Locke at the Beechcraft, so he must be able to predict where the island skips to each time.

I feel like my head is going to explode, though. I'm really not good at grasping this stuff.

um... what? i hope you're not suggesting that people on the 20th floor of a building are "in the future" relative to the people on the 1st floor... distance has nothing to do with it.

what i got out of the "go to the top of the building and you're in the future" post was that we are all always moving forward in time...

I think the OP's point was that people on the 20th floor are moving faster than people on the 1st floor due to the spinning of the earth. As a result, when comparing synchronized clocks the 20th floor clock will be slightly behind the 1st floor clock.

You're right, distance has nothing to do with it. However people on the 20th floor would have aged less when compared to people on the 1st floor. This is analagous to saying that these 20th floor people have "travelled into the future."

ooooh to the gravity/time explanation. for some reason i did not get that meaning from the post about the building... (i don't completely function in the morning).

and yeah, gravity does that because it is an acceleration by definition. when people talk about the "twin paradox" that happens when one twin travels at relativistic speeds and the other stays on earth, it's actually the acceleration and the deceleration from relativistic velocities that cause the discrepancy in the clocks rather than the speed at which you're traveling, which is apparently the common belief.

mr candle.."there are rules".. I say that gives us some serious exceptions to the paradox we are familiar with. just a thought.

The Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Time's Arrow".

Data's head is found in a cave in San Francisco that has been sealed for 500 years. Trying to find out how it had got there, the Enterprise crew travels to a planet where some weird aliens travel into Earth's past, and some of the Enterprise crew members (including Data) also end up in the 19th century. There they meet Mark Twain who helps them. The episode ends with Data's head getting severed, the Enterprise crew travel back to their time with Data's body but leave the head behind, and in the 24th century they reattach Data's head to his body.

Also, when news of Data's head having been found spread, Guinan, a centuries-old character who serves as a bartender on board the Enterprise, mumbled that it's "coming full circle". The Enterprise crew meet Guinan in the 19th century, who also helps them.

So the time-travel had not only already been part of their past before they travelled back in time - in trying to solve the mystery of Data's head in a cave, they travel back in time and cause the events that lead to the discovery of the head in the first place.

That's one of my favorite episodes! I loved Guinan and Mark Twain in the 19th century.

I agree that Richard knew "when" to find Locke, however I disagree with you regarding Richard having been informed by Ethan of Locke's condition. IMOP Locke jumps back to a time period before he met Richard for the first time. Locke gives Richard the compass and tells him Ethan shot him in the future. We must remember, Richard told Locke that he did not leave, Locke was the one who left. Therefore Richard would seem to be on a Time String that is only going forward, however Locke is now jumping backward and forward on a Time String. Which would allow for Locke to give Richard the compass in the past, only in order for Richard to give it back to Locke in the future. This would also explain why the Others told Locke they were waiting for him for a long time. My guess is Locke has been jumping around in time and the Others are trying to catch-up with him in time.
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As a child, Locke was presented with a number of items and asked to show which were his. The compass is one of the items he chose. Hasn't Locke always had a compass since Season 1?

Locke may not remember Richard testing him - but I have no doubt that Richard remembers testing him.

So where I'm getting at is all dependent upon when he sees Richard and gives him the compass. If it is in a time after Richard tested him - then the "it always happened" makes a little more sense, because Locke could have given Richard his compass, told him his name - and click - Richard remembers testing the boy - that the boy chose a compass as one of his items and believe him. Richard would then have the compass to give Locke in the future and be able to tell him that it is important to give it to Richard as proof that what he says is true.

Still kind of a weird loop - but this whole space/time scenario is a little weird and requires a leap of faith.

I don't have a problem with the scenario. However, I would like to know why only non-native others are affected by the time shifting.


I remember Locke having a compass in season one, as well as the test Richard gave Locke. The compass has got to be traveling through time via Locke.

Does anyone remember Locke having a compass in the first season? I can't recall the exact episode, but I'm pretty sure Locke had a compass during the times he went into the jungle with Boone and when he came across Kate and Sawyer trying to hunt a boar.

the problem is all of the situations people gave are all paradoxes. Look at it this way. We'll use the star trek reference.


Data's head can never be back in time if he has not yet time traveled. Originally with all things relating to time, there is a beginning and an end. When time began data's head was never in the past. it only went to the past because they traveled into the past. at someone point, his head is never in the past. his head can not always be in the past because then the question becomes was his head in the past before he was around or did he time travel and that's how his head got back in time. it can't be both ways. again its like the chicken and the egg. which one came first. well we know without a chicken, you can't get and egg. although we also know that to get a chicken, you need an egg.

time travel is one giant paradox because its impossible for something to be back in time before it has ever happened.

i cant find a picture of me now from 30 years in the future because i have yet to take the picture into the past. it can not always be there because it has yet to happen. its the same thing you can't go back and kill your grandfather in the past because how can you kill your grandfather because without him you would never be born, thus never travel back in time to kill him.
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The Star Trek: The Next Generation episode "Time's Arrow".

Data's head is found in a cave in San Francisco that has been sealed for 500 years. Trying to find out how it had got there, the Enterprise crew travels to a planet where some weird aliens travel into Earth's past, and some of the Enterprise crew members (including Data) also end up in the 19th century. There they meet Mark Twain who helps them. The episode ends with Data's head getting severed, the Enterprise crew travel back to their time with Data's body but leave the head behind, and in the 24th century they reattach Data's head to his body.

Also, when news of Data's head having been found spread, Guinan, a centuries-old character who serves as a bartender on board the Enterprise, mumbled that it's "coming full circle". The Enterprise crew meet Guinan in the 19th century, who also helps them.

So the time-travel had not only already been part of their past before they travelled back in time - in trying to solve the mystery of Data's head in a cave, they travel back in time and cause the events that lead to the discovery of the head in the first place.


But its a paradox because its just like the chicken and the egg thing, which came first. data's head in the past or data time traveling. one needed to come first before the other. both events can not happen simutaneously, so one had to come first. since one has to come first, a paradox is created.

I don't see that there has to be a paradox here.

- Locke gets shot then jumps to the future
- Richard shows up, gives first aid and the compass
- Locke jumps to the past and meets Richard who doesn't recognize him
- John says "what do you mean, you found me at the beechcraft after i disappeared, fixed up my gunshot wound, and gave me this compass"
- Richard recognizes he compass and believes John

No paradox and John tells Richard everything Richard said he would.

Remember what Daniel said "It's all relative".

Each observer has a different view of the timeline. Thus, for Locke, he's simply living his life from moment to moment, and he's given a compass by Richard. Some time later he'll give that compass to Richard. No problem, no paradox.

For Richard, he's living his life, up bobs some guy he doesn't know, who tells him weird stuff and gives him a compass. Some time later he'll meet up with Locke, fix his leg, and give him the compass.

For each of them, it makes perfect sense. It's when the observer is not one of these people that it gets tricky. We of course, are such outside observers.

Imagine you're on a hill, watching a two people race towards you. At times, one will seem bigger than the other (because they're closer to you), at times, one may obscure the other entirely (because they're in front of the other). Yet to the two racers, none of this occurs - they're simply running along. Which point of view is "real"?

Okay, I checked Lostpedia, and Locke had a compass in the episode "Hearts and Minds," from season 1. (Lospedia states Locke had at least 2 compasses). Ironically, however, Locke gives one of the compasses to Sayid, who thinks the compass is broken because it doesn't point to true North.

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Compass

So... Does this give new meaning to the scene in which Richard states what a compass does ("It points north, John")?

Maybe the original timeline paradox occured when Desmond failed to type in the numbers and Oceanic 815 crashed onto the island. Maybe everything from that point forward is the paradox. Just a theory.

I don't see that there has to be a paradox here.

- Locke gets shot then jumps to the future
- Richard shows up, gives first aid and the compass
- Locke jumps to the past and meets Richard who doesn't recognize him
- John says "what do you mean, you found me at the beechcraft after i disappeared, fixed up my gunshot wound, and gave me this compass"
- Richard recognizes he compass and believes John

No paradox and John tells Richard everything Richard said he would.

So where does the compass come from? This is the paradox.
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For each of them, it makes perfect sense. It's when the observer is not one of these people that it gets tricky. We of course, are such outside observers.


That's a good point.

Remember what Daniel said "It's all relative".

Each observer has a different view of the timeline. Thus, for Locke, he's simply living his life from moment to moment, and he's given a compass by Richard. Some time later he'll give that compass to Richard. No problem, no paradox.

For Richard, he's living his life, up bobs some guy he doesn't know, who tells him weird stuff and gives him a compass. Some time later he'll meet up with Locke, fix his leg, and give him the compass.

For each of them, it makes perfect sense. It's when the observer is not one of these people that it gets tricky. We of course, are such outside observers.

Imagine you're on a hill, watching a two people race towards you. At times, one will seem bigger than the other (because they're closer to you), at times, one may obscure the other entirely (because they're in front of the other). Yet to the two racers, none of this occurs - they're simply running along. Which point of view is "real"?


THANK YOU kitdavis for this explanation! I am observing Lost Season 5 from this perspective. With all the different time shifts occurring this might a helpful in-sight ;).

So where does the compass come from? This is the paradox.

The compass is something meaningful to Richard. There could be several reasons about where it comes from. Off the top of my head (and completely made up!) what if the compass is given to the leader of the others. Richard didn't get a chance to give it to Locke before he disappeared when the island moved. He gives it to him now and when past Richard sees Locke has it he knows Locke is telling the truth since only their leader has one.

I'm not implying this is what happened. I'm just saying there is not automatically a paradox yet.

The compass is something meaningful to Richard. There could be several reasons about where it comes from. Off the top of my head (and completely made up!) what if the compass is given to the leader of the others. Richard didn't get a chance to give it to Locke before he disappeared when the island moved. He gives it to him now and when past Richard sees Locke has it he knows Locke is telling the truth since only their leader has one.

I'm not implying this is what happened. I'm just saying there is not automatically a paradox yet.

I think you're missing my point, this still seems like an ontological paradox to me. Richard gets the compass from future Locke. And later, he gives it back to Locke and tells him to give it to him in the past. Where does the compass come from?

Okay, to my mind, there are only two possibilities of what is happening here. One involves a paradox and the other does not.

Possibility 1: Richard originally got the compass from Locke, who got it from Richard, who got it from Locke, who got it from Richard, who got it from etc etc. This is the less likely explanation as it means that the compass is stuck in an infinite time loop and was never actually 'made' by anyone! PARADOX. Also, why would Richard give Locke a compass that he only saw for the first time when Locke gave it him? How would that prove Locke's story to the Richard in the past - a random guy showing up and giving him a compass that he's never seen before. It doesn't make sense.

Possibility 2: There are two compasses. The compass is something that Richard owned or knew of before he met Locke at all. He gives it to Locke because by Locke showing past Richard a compass identical to his it proves that Locke really is from the future. That means at their first meeting, Richard will be able to pull 'his' compass out of his pocket and compare it side by side to Locke's 'future' compass.

Now that I think of it, it's not just the compass - or the object - that creates the paradox, it's the whole act of giving something.

Locke shows up and says "Here you go, in the future you'll tell me to give this to you". Then in the future, Richard knows that he has to give it to Locke so he will believe him. So he goes "Here you go, give this to me when we'll meet." There's no orginal point where someone decides to give something from their own free will.

So it's not only objects that can create an ontological paradox, it's thoughts and ideas also.

It definitely seems like a paradox but I'll wait and see the meeting between Locke and past Richard. Any kind of time travel story involves a certain ammount of paradox, the meeting between Richard and Locke at the beechcraft would never have taken place if Locke had never gone back in time. Sort of a chicken or the egg situation.

It definitely seems like a paradox but I'll wait and see the meeting between Locke and past Richard. Any kind of time travel story involves a certain ammount of paradox, the meeting between Richard and Locke at the beechcraft would never have taken place if Locke had never gone back in time. Sort of a chicken or the egg situation.

very true, there can never be a time travel story without a paradox. so with that in mind, the writers job is to keep the paradox's to a minimum and not have any big ones and they are doing a good job so far.

Just thought i'd throw this in here...the compasses are not the same. Quote from SamG in "The Rules" thread:

The compasses are not the same. There is a light difference between the two.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displa...577&fullsize=1 (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=114577&fullsize=1) Young Locke compass
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displa...539&fullsize=1 (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=120539&fullsize=1) BYL compass Alpert gave Locke

Look at the compasses closer. See where North and South are in relation to the stem. A Mirror image of each other.
NW SW NE SE

In the Orchid video outtakes that were online before season 4, we saw two versions of bunny #15 - the one that Halliwax is holding while he gives the orientation speech, and the version that has been time shifted. Halliwax's big concern is not letting the rabbits touch. Regardless of other existing definitions of paradox, I think that is the only sort of paradox that Lost is going to recognize - if there are two versions of an object from different points in that object's personal timeline, then those two objects cannot touch, or disaster will ensue.

I don't think it is a paradox at all, there was never a time when John had talked to Richard in the past without first encountering Richard in the future, because for John, the future pre-dated the past.

You need to think about the time line of individuals rather than a grand scheme when talking about TT, each person lives their own time line, and while they intersect other time lines, they are all in their own single line.

From Richards Perspective:
Richard: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
John: (2)------(1)------(3)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

1: Original John
2: Back in time
3: Back to the future

Even though John's timeline intersects Richards at different points, for John this is still one continuous timeline, and from his perspective, even though John is the one skipping in time, Richard is the one who is out of place.

It's all relative

When you remember that all points in time exist simultaneously, and every one of those points is somebody's or something's now, their is no such thing as the original time line, everyone has their own linear timeline.

the only reason that someone else is moving in time and not you, is because you see it from your own perspective, in this case, it's the lefties timeline VS the islands time line.

I don't think it is a paradox at all, there was never a time when John had talked to Richard in the past without first encountering Richard in the future, because for John, the future pre-dated the past.

You need to think about the time line of individuals rather than a grand scheme when talking about TT, each person lives their own time line, and while they intersect other time lines, they are all in their own single line.

From Richards Perspective:
Richard: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->
John: (2)------(1)------(3)---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

1: Original John
2: Back in time
3: Back to the future

Even though John's timeline intersects Richards at different points, for John this is still one continuous timeline, and from his perspective, even though John is the one skipping in time, Richard is the one who is out of place.

It's all relative

When you remember that all points in time exist simultaneously, and every one of those points is somebody's or something's now, their is no such thing as the original time line, everyone has their own linear timeline.

the only reason that someone else is moving in time and not you, is because you see it from your own perspective, in this case, it's the lefties timeline VS the islands time line.


the problem is which cam first. richard giving john the compass to give to himself or john giving richard the compass to give to him to give back to richard. its a never ending loop, thus a paradox.

I'm sure this must have been mentioned, but after half an hour perusing the threads I didn't see it:

Didn't the makers state in the previous season that they were going to avoid all paradoxes by explaining that only CONSCIOUSNESS time travels, rather then people physically travelling through time. Yet here we are with them flipping back and forth in time physically (Locke's leg injury travelled with him), which raises all sorts of possible paradoxes, they could even meet themselves if they jump to a time when they are already on the island!

I'm sure this must have been mentioned, but after half an hour perusing the threads I didn't see it:

Didn't the makers state in the previous season that they were going to avoid all paradoxes by explaining that only CONSCIOUSNESS time travels, rather then people physically travelling through time. Yet here we are with them flipping back and forth in time physically (Locke's leg injury travelled with him), which raises all sorts of possible paradoxes, they could even meet themselves if they jump to a time when they are already on the island!

Two explanations:
1 - Reality Check: TPTB didn't want to let the cat out of the bag on physical time travel way back in season three, so they told a lie. They've done it before to keep elements of the story secret (at the start of things, they said there would be no time travel, period), and they may have to do it again. They are in the middle of writing a very long mystery in front of an audience. They can't stop in the middle of the story and tell everyone who has guessed the ending that they are right, because it would ruin the experience for the rest of us.

2 - Story Based: When Desmond's brain went on it's little jaunt, Des encountered young Daniel at Oxford. Young Dan hadn't solved the time travel problem before Desmond arrived. Young Dan's knowledge at that time was almost entirely theoretical. So if young Dan told Des that "only the consciousness can time travel," well, we have to take it with a grain of salt. Young Dan was wrong.

Just thought i'd throw this in here...the compasses are not the same. Quote from SamG in "The Rules" thread:

The compasses are also different because the one Richard gave Locke by the beechcraft has "O" instead of "W", which means it could be French, Portugese, Spanish or Italian, among others I'm sure.
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the problem is which cam first. richard giving john the compass to give to himself or john giving richard the compass to give to him to give back to richard. its a never ending loop, thus a paradox.

I really don't see the paradox. As someone stated earlier, it can easily be done without a paradox or time loop. We haven't seen Locke give Richard the compass. Richard has the compass in his past, gives it to Locke in Richard's future at the beechcraft. Locke goes back to Richard's past and shows the compass to Richard. Locke keeps the compass, goes back to the future and returns the compass to Richard. The compass has a beginning and an end. No time loop, no problem.

I really don't see the paradox. As someone stated earlier, it can easily be done without a paradox or time loop. We haven't seen Locke give Richard the compass. Richard has the compass in his past, gives it to Locke in Richard's future at the beechcraft. Locke goes back to Richard's past and shows the compass to Richard. Locke keeps the compass, goes back to the future and returns the compass to Richard. The compass has a beginning and an end. No time loop, no problem.


The actual compass may or may not be paradoxical depending on if Locke gives it back to Richard in the past or not, but the information sure is. Wounded Locke is lying at the Beechcraft. Richard comes to help him because Locke told him that's where he would be. Richard coming to help Locke gives Locke the idea to tell Richard where he will be. That's a paradox.

the problem is which cam first. richard giving john the compass to give to himself or john giving richard the compass to give to him to give back to richard. its a never ending loop, thus a paradox.


I really don't see the paradox. As someone stated earlier, it can easily be done without a paradox or time loop. We haven't seen Locke give Richard the compass. Richard has the compass in his past, gives it to Locke in Richard's future at the beechcraft. Locke goes back to Richard's past and shows the compass to Richard. Locke keeps the compass, goes back to the future and returns the compass to Richard. The compass has a beginning and an end. No time loop, no problem.The actual compass may or may not be paradoxical depending on if Locke gives it back to Richard in the past or not, but the information sure is. Wounded Locke is lying at the Beechcraft. Richard comes to help him because Locke told him that's where he would be. Richard coming to help Locke gives Locke the idea to tell Richard where he will be. That's a paradox.

I wasn't disputing the information that Locke told Richard wasn't a paradox, only that the compass isn't a paradox. That's why I quoted the passage that I did, which was saying the compass was the paradox.

I'm sure this must have been mentioned, but after half an hour perusing the threads I didn't see it:

Didn't the makers state in the previous season that they were going to avoid all paradoxes by explaining that only CONSCIOUSNESS time travels, rather then people physically travelling through time. Yet here we are with them flipping back and forth in time physically (Locke's leg injury travelled with him), which raises all sorts of possible paradoxes, they could even meet themselves if they jump to a time when they are already on the island!

well ANY time travel story has a paradox in it. its the writers job to form thier own rules on time travel and follow those rules and minimize paradoxes since there will always be some since time travel by itself is a paradox.

I loved the dialogue:
"Here, take the compass"
"What does it do?"
"It points north!".


hahaha......

Do you remember what was on echos stick? "Lift Up Your Eyes And Look North"

Remember what Daniel said "It's all relative".

I've been saying this since season 1 :rolleyes:

As a geek I like to think I know how time travel would work if it could happen - either you can change history and create parallel time lines or you can't change things (i.e. time is looped - if you go back to give someone a compass, you were always going to go back to give someone a compass).

But the thing with writing a story that includes time travel is that you can make your own rules - it's a story and it's fiction.

So I think it might be silly to pick holes in the story as far as paradoxes are conserned.

But since you asked - in real time the compass appears to go from "future" old locke to Richard in the 50s (if he did hand it to him), and richard takes it with him in a couple of years to show young Locke ("Which of these belong to you John?"), then years later finds old Locke shot in the Jungle and gives him the compass. I think the compass may have more significance than this but it may also be showing us that time is "looping" in some way, like the compass.

In addition I think it is pretty obvious that Faraday is not telling all of what he knows about time travel and there are ways to change things - like Desmond being "special".

I have read alot of questions about the compass.
People have wondered where it originated from.
I have a theory about this.
What if the compass that Locke shows Richard is the second compass that exists at that time.
Richard has his own original compass in his tent or wherever he has his belongings. Locke shows the second compass to Richard to prove that he is from the future. If this was the first time Richard had seen the compass then it wouldn't mean anything to him. If you wanted to persuade someone that you were from the future you would show them something that they were already in possession of.

The Zodiac travelled through time with Faraday and then kept travelling with them even though no one was with it. Maybe after Locke takes the compass through time with him it keeps jumping every time he does. Richard could have seen both Locke and the compass dissapear at the same time. The compass will keep travelling through time until the skipping stops.

Hopefully this makes sense.

Good theory but i disagree. I think there is only one compass. Before Locke gave it to Richard he didn't have the compass - the compass goes with whoever has it. I don't have a theory as to why material things are jumping with certain people though.

I don't know why the compass is what Richard gave to Locke to give back to him in the past, but I don't think we have seen the whole story of the compass - something we have yet to see may make it more important to connect Locke and Richard.

Since the last show ended, I imagined the first scene of Richard will be him setting an older worn compass next to a newer one.

I do think if there is two compasses, they will both stay with Richard. This would not be creating a new "street" as Daniel said, more like moving a stop sign from one corner to another.

Yeah maybe you are right about the second compass staying with Richard
Maybe when Richard gave Locke the compass he kept the older one and gave Locke the newest one to give to his earlier self.

This would prevent the same compass being stuck in a loop

Even if 1954 Richard has a compass that looks exactly the same as the compass that Locke gave him, they are not the same. One would have been manufactured while the other would have never been created.

Good theory but i disagree. I think there is only one compass. Before Locke gave it to Richard he didn't have the compass - the compass goes with whoever has it. I don't have a theory as to why material things are jumping with certain people though.

I don't know why the compass is what Richard gave to Locke to give back to him in the past, but I don't think we have seen the whole story of the compass - something we have yet to see may make it more important to connect Locke and Richard.


If Richard doesn't have the compass in 1954, why would he give it to Locke in the future to give to him, he woulnt recognize it. Meaning the first time Richard saw it was when Locke handed it to him. My opinion is that this will be Richards first time dealing with time travel. Maybe a signal to him that something bad is going to happen?:confused:

And I agree with OP, for whatever reason items they have with them have traveled with them correct? Johns knife, bandages.... guns???
I'll be re watching that one today:biggrin:

Yeah maybe you are right about the second compass staying with Richard
Maybe when Richard gave Locke the compass he kept the older one and gave Locke the newest one to give to his earlier self.

This would prevent the same compass being stuck in a loop


If I follow you correctly, the two compasses would just be constantly changing hands.The "newer one" would just become the "older one" and the process would repeat in an endless loop.

Imagine on your 40th birthday you travelled back in time and moved to another country
For the next year there would be two of you in the same time
Its the same you but from a year into the future
On your 41st birthday there would only be one of you because the other you would travel back in time

I believe this is what is happening with the compass

Yeah maybe you are right about the second compass staying with Richard
Maybe when Richard gave Locke the compass he kept the older one and gave Locke the newest one to give to his earlier self.

This would prevent the same compass being stuck in a loop

First off, I get the time travel idea, but cannot explain it.:biggrin: What I mean is that there are others (pun) on here that have a much better understanding than I do. That being said, I don't think objects get stuck in a time loop, just people. If you were to grab a handful of sand from the beach and travel backward, there would be an extra handful of sand on the beach.
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If I follow you correctly, the two compasses would just be constantly changing hands.The "newer one" would just become the "older one" and the process would repeat in an endless loop.


not really a spoiler but my idea. So the other opening scene would be Richard not finding his compass? i.e. it vanished.. it would be much better to see the new compass and older one set next to each other... cue commercial break music.
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Imagine on your 40th birthday you travelled back in time and moved to another country
For the next year there would be two of you in the same time
Its the same you but from a year into the future
On your 41st birthday there would only be one of you because the other you would travel back in time

I believe this is what is happening with the compass

You may be right. To me tho, two is better than one.;)
we should know in a few hours. AAAAAAAnnnnnndddddd cut to dramatic music.:biggrin:

I've changed my mind about the dissapearing compass now and think that your "spoiler" could be correct

As long as the same compass isnt looping through time then the compass will have a beggining and an end

Imagine on your 40th birthday you travelled back in time and moved to another country
For the next year there would be two of you in the same time
Its the same you but from a year into the future
On your 41st birthday there would only be one of you because the other you would travel back in time

I believe this is what is happening with the compass

I don't think that's an analogous situation.

I think this is what you are saying:
Richard has compass #1. Locke goes back to 1954 and gives him compass #2. Richard then holds onto #2, then gives Locke #1 at the Beechcraft. Then Locke goes back in time to give Richard # 1.

That clearly doesn't work because Locke's already given him #2.

Yeah exactly
I dont believe the same compass is going back and forth
The compass that Locke gives to Richard would act as Richards #2
This would prevent the same compass from forever being in existance

Yeah exactly
I dont believe the same compass is going back and forth
The compass that Locke gives to Richard would act as Richards #2
This would prevent the same compass from forever being in existance

I don't follow. The compass that Locke gives Richard #1 can't act as #2 because it is #1.


What I just wrote sounds ridiculous. Time travel is a mess.

Haha yeah it can sound ridiculous
From what I have read some people have thought that the compass is continuously (sp?) looping through time. I dont think this sounds right as itwould be forever getting older and older.

I'll try to explain my ideas with a diagram

Ricard gets a compass from the marines in 1954---------------------------2005 gives it to Locke
Locke gives his compass to Richard in 1954 ---------------------------------------------------> future

For the time between 1954 and 2005 there are two of them but any one compass will only travel back in time once

Good theory but i disagree. I think there is only one compass. Before Locke gave it to Richard he didn't have the compass - the compass goes with whoever has it. I don't have a theory as to why material things are jumping with certain people though.

I don't know why the compass is what Richard gave to Locke to give back to him in the past, but I don't think we have seen the whole story of the compass - something we have yet to see may make it more important to connect Locke and Richard.

That ^ ^ ^ , having only one compass, is a paradox, because the information has no origin.

There are two compasses, i can't find the thread where i explained it, but the thread starter is completely correct, there are two.

For the purpose of this explination the compass was made in 1930.

Richard has a 24 year old compass in 1954 - Compass (O)riginal
John Locke has a 75 year old compass in 1954. - Compass (D)uplicate

They are the same compass.

Richard buys the compass in 1930 in 1954 his compass O in 24 Years old.
John comes back in time and gives Richard compass D

As soon as John Goes back in time, the compass O that Richard gave him becomes compass D, it becomes the duplicate. Exactly the same scenario as the two #15 bunnies.

This way, compass N, the one Richard gives to john in the future, never makes it past 75 years old - a consistent loop that can continue forever without the compass deteriorating.

It is also not an ontological paradox, as a one compass loop would be, because the information, or in this case the compass, has an origin.

Richard knows that John is telling the truth because he has given him a copy of his own compass from the future.

Haha yeah it can sound ridiculous
From what I have read some people have thought that the compass is continuously (sp?) looping through time. I dont think this sounds right as itwould be forever getting older and older.

I'll try to explain my ideas with a diagram

Ricard gets a compass from the marines in 1954---------------------------2005 gives it to Locke
Locke gives his compass to Richard in 1954 ---------------------------------------------------> future

For the time between 1954 and 2005 there are two of them but any one compass will only travel back in time once

I can't see why this wouldn't make sense.

1954--- Richard has the original compass and original compass+50 years.

2004 Richard gives Locke original compass(now+50 years) and keeps compass+100 years

Is that right?

But at any point in the time line, the action of giving and recieving the compass in both 1954 and 2004 must have still already have happened and that still makes it a paradox.

I might have to rethink one of the compasses lacking an origin.
Can you explain the lack of origin for the information that is passed between Locke and Richard?

Yes your compass age example makes alot of sense to me

I have no idea of how to explain the information shared between them.
The whole "which came first the chicken or the egg?" question is the same idea

I can't see why this wouldn't make sense.

1954--- Richard has the original compass and original compass+50 years.

2004 Richard gives Locke original compass(now+50 years) and keeps compass+100 years

Is that right?

But at any point in the time line, the action of giving and recieving the compass in both 1954 and 2004 must have still already have happened and that still makes it a paradox.

I might have to rethink one of the compasses lacking an origin.
Can you explain the lack of origin for the information that is passed between Locke and Richard?

*edit* Misread, i need sleep

Yes your compass age example makes alot of sense to me

Mine? That's your's, just with numbers.

Mine? That's your's, just with numbers.

Yeah i know but yours sounds a better way of explaining what i was trying to say.

Mine? That's your's, just with numbers.

Either way, it works.

what if richard takes the duplicate compass and smashes it... now there is only one!
OR what if it travels with Locke then there is only one because when he catches up to normal time he can give richard his compass back.

what if richard takes the duplicate compass and smashes it... now there is only one!
OR what if it travels with Locke then there is only one because when he catches up to normal time he can give richard his compass back.

Yeah I think both of these ideas would fit in with my idea of what is happening

what if richard takes the duplicate compass and smashes it... now there is only one!
OR what if it travels with Locke then there is only one because when he catches up to normal time he can give richard his compass back.

Locke gave Richard the compass... he didn't have it at the next flash.

if he gave it to him maybe it fell to the ground and richard will find it again in the future

If I remember correctly the Zodiac travelled through time on its own so yeah maybe it dropped where Richard was previously sitting

if he gave it to him maybe it fell to the ground and richard will find it again in the future

But Richard never gives the duplicate compass to John, only the younger original compass. So it doesn't matter what Richard does with the compass John gives him, as long as he see's that compass from the future he knows John is telling the truth because it is the same compass Richard already owns.

Think about the two #15 bunnies, just with compasses instead.
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If I remember correctly the Zodiac travelled through time on its own so yeah maybe it dropped where Richard was previously sitting

How the hell is this relevant to the compasses? the loop works fine.

Yeah you right it doesn't really matter what becomes of the duplicate. It could have been destroyed before 2005 or someone else could have it. As long as Richard gives Locke his original compass in 2005 then it'll all fit.

I mentioned the zodiac because the compass could be doing the same thing.
Once Locke takes it with him it might follow them through all the jumps.
The loop works fine but this could be another option.

But Richard never gives the duplicate compass to John, only the younger original compass. So it doesn't matter what Richard does with the compass John gives him, as long as he see's that compass from the future he knows John is telling the truth because it is the same compass Richard already owns.

Think about the two #15 bunnies, just with compasses instead.
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.

You are one of those that understands this better than I do.:biggrin: Is this what the term causation would mean. People traveling have an affect on objects they have or come in contact with. Meaning what they do in that time period can cause a change in objects per say but cannot change the outcome...

It's official I now have a headache from all this... and dammit i need to know now if there are 2 compasses or not.. I better find out tonight.:confused:

Does anyone know what episode shows the 2 rabbits?? I need to watch that again.

I have read alot of questions about the compass.
People have wondered where it originated from.
I have a theory about this.
What if the compass that Locke shows Richard is the second compass that exists at that time.
Richard has his own original compass in his tent or wherever he has his belongings. Locke shows the second compass to Richard to prove that he is from the future. If this was the first time Richard had seen the compass then it wouldn't mean anything to him. If you wanted to persuade someone that you were from the future you would show them something that they were already in possession of.
Hopefully this makes sense.

I was thinking similar thoughts. If Richard had never seen the compass prior to Locke showing it to him in 1950, why would this possibly serve as reasoning for Richard to indeed believe that Locke was from the future? Richard should have immediately pulled the same compass, only nice and shiny, from his pocket and compared it with Lockes. Richard would then keep both compasses until it came time to give the new one to Locke in 2006 (or whenever it was).

This would have been a huge pay off...but it doesn't happen. I see a paradox in the making if this isn't rectified in future time jumps.
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I don't think that's an analogous situation.

I think this is what you are saying:
Richard has compass #1. Locke goes back to 1954 and gives him compass #2. Richard then holds onto #2, then gives Locke #1 at the Beechcraft. Then Locke goes back in time to give Richard # 1.

That clearly doesn't work because Locke's already given him #2.

Why doesn't that work? Richard places compass #1 in his left pocket. Locke goes back in time and gives him compass #2, that Richard places in his right pocket. At the Beechcraft, Richard has both compasses in his pockets. He gives compass #1 from his left pocket to Locke. Locke flashes away. Richard continues the timeline with compasss #2 in his right pocket. The loop is complete, there is no longer 2 compasses, just the same one Richard started out with in 1954 - - it's just a bit older.

If we do not see Richard with 2 compasses at some point...then we can talk paradox's.

I was thinking similar thoughts. If Richard had never seen the compass prior to Locke showing it to him in 1950, why would this possibly serve as reasoning for Richard to indeed believe that Locke was from the future? Richard should have immediately pulled the same compass, only nice and shiny, from his pocket and compared it with Lockes. Richard would then keep both compasses until it came time to give the new one to Locke in 2006 (or whenever it was).

This would have been a huge pay off...but it doesn't happen. I see a paradox in the making if this isn't rectified in future time jumps.

Richard reacts when Locke tells him about Jacob
Richard seems skeptical of Locke in the tent. Wasn't going to tell him how to get off the island. Looks away in disbelief when Lock tells him he will be born in 2 years.

Lets face it if you were hanging out in the jungle on a remote island and someone tells you what Locke told Richard, well it would take more than a compass for me to believe him.
I hope i am using the spoiler correctly, its just my opinion
They always end the shows in mid scene, I don't think this is over We have yet to see it from Richards point of view, after flash.

Like many of you, I have been refreshing my brain on time travel, wormholes, closed loop time curves, and of course, paradox. I strongly urge everyone to re-read Novikov self-consistency principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle)

As has been cited by others before, an ontological paradox is, per Wikipedia:

An ontological paradox is a paradox of time travel that questions the existence and creation of information and objects that travel in time. It is very closely related to the predestination paradox and usually occurs at the same time.

Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened was meant to happen. A time traveler attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling his role in creating history, not changing it. The Novikov self-consistency principle proposes that contradictory causal loops cannot form, but that consistent ones can.

However, a scenario can occur where items or information are passed from the future to the past, which then become the same items or information that are subsequently passed back. This not only creates a loop, but a situation where these items have no discernible origin. Physical items are even more problematic than pieces of information, since they should ordinarily age and increase in entropy according to the Second law of thermodynamics. But if they age by any nonzero amount at each cycle, they cannot be the same item to be sent back in time, creating a contradiction unless it is a reproduced item such as a seed, spore, etc.

The paradox raises the ontological questions of where, when and by whom the items were created or the information derived. Time loop logic operates on similar principles, sending the solutions to computation problems back in time to be checked for correctness without ever being computed "originally."

The compass Richard gives Locke is a great example. WHO'S COMPASS IS IT? Was Locke necessarily wrong when he indicated the Compass was not his?

1954 - Locke gives Richard the compass
2004 - Locke time travels to slightly earlier 2004 (SE2004)
SE2004 - Richard gives Locke the compass
SE2004 - Locke time travels back to 1954.

The compass seems to be Locked :hypocrit: in a Loop.

Like many of you, I have been refreshing my brain on time travel, wormholes, closed loop time curves, and of course, paradox. I strongly urge everyone to re-read Novikov self-consistency principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle)

As has been cited by others before, an ontological paradox is, per Wikipedia:


The compass Richard gives Locke is a great example. WHO'S COMPASS IS IT? Was Locke necessarily wrong when he indicated the Compass was not his?

1954 - Locke gives Richard the compass
2004 - Locke time travels to slightly earlier 2004 (SE2004)
SE2004 - Richard gives Locke the compass
SE2004 - Locke time travels back to 1954.

The compass seems to be Locked :hypocrit: in a Loop.

I haven't read anything on time travel, I've been trying to deal with it in the context of this show. I think it has been proven by the case of two number 15 rabbits in the darma training video, that two things can be in the same place in time. IF Richard has a compass, the one Locke gives him will be the second one.
So that means

1954 Thursday ( random day) Richard is in the camp listening to Widmore whine about something with a compass he brought with him.
1954 Friday (next day) Locke appears and gives Richard an identical compass.
2004 he gives a Compass to Locke
2004 Locke travels back to 1954

Thinking about the origin of the second compass gives me a headache but I think its possible. Right? I'm not saying its the only outcome, it just seemed right to me.

Even if 1954 Richard has a compass that looks exactly the same as the compass that Locke gave him, they are not the same. One would have been manufactured while the other would have never been created.

I'm not sure I understand. We've been shown other examples of 2 of something existing at the same time. There were 2 Bunny 15's in the Orchid video, 2 Sawyers, 2 Juliet's and 2 Locke's existing on the Island in the TLP when we saw the light from the hatch. All of them were created, just like the 2 compasses, so I don't see how one of the compasses was manufactured while the other was not, one of them is just from the future. If that was the case then one of the bunnies/Sawyer/Juliet/Locke weren't created either, which we know isn't the case.