Did this line by Ben seem odd to anyone. it almost seemed like the writers messed up in having ben say that and were using this as a way to fix that so that Ben did in fact talk to Locke.

It's just Ben's shady ways.

I thought it was interesting that he used the words "I went to see him."

This is very similar to what Locke said to Jin about Sun. Something like "I won't go to see her, but she may come to see me."

I thought Ben said he didnt see Locke since he turned the wheel? maybe have to rewatch

It's just Ben's way of manipulating words. That way he's not "technically lying." He never gives up information unless it's beneficial to him.

Did this line by Ben seem odd to anyone. it almost seemed like the writers messed up in having ben say that and were using this as a way to fix that so that Ben did in fact talk to Locke.

I don't think so, ice. My guess is that a Locke-Ben off-island meeting was always planned by the writers.

I think it was interesting information for Jack to hear, though. Jack's either sitting back quietly, knowing far more than he is letting on (after talking to Locke), or he is now beginning to realize what Ben is up to. Jack's been awful quiet this season, and I suspect that he is plotting against Ben in some way. The hero and star of the show is not going to be led on a leash by Ben for very long, IMO. Jack's starting to get "it."

Did this line by Ben seem odd to anyone. it almost seemed like the writers messed up in having ben say that and were using this as a way to fix that so that Ben did in fact talk to Locke.

You're right, the writers messed up. If they wanted Ben to have met Locke but didn't want us to know, how about make Jack never ask the question. I'm sure they want us to believe it's just Bens lies, but why even lie about it. It's irritating.

Watched the first episode jack said WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW LOCKE? BEN SAID ON THE ISLAND soooo writers screwed up

Unless ...hes considering him Bentham but either way hes not manipulating hes LYING or theres a writing error

I am starting to think that Ben went to see Locke to kill him. I think Ben is only about Ben and Sayid already knows this. Jack is beginning to as well. Ben just spoke so callously about John dying. I am also thinking Ben brought Locke to Hoffs Drawler himself. It was part of his plan to convince Jack to go back.
Another idea just came to me. When Walt said that John came to see him, maybe it was the same way Charlie spoke to Hurley outside Santa Rosa. You know, "I am dead, but I am also here.
The idea of John Locke dying is bothering me very much. If Ben did go see him and killed him then Ben is not "one of the good guys".

MKLOST I agree...Ben is outright lying and I think its BC he killed Locke. Hes trying to make it sound like another manipulation but this is different.

Watched the first episode jack said WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW LOCKE? BEN SAID ON THE ISLAND soooo writers screwed up

Unless ...hes considering him Bentham but either way hes not manipulating hes LYING or theres a writing error

It just seems so stupid to even set it up as a bone of contention, doesn't it? Make him not answer or make Jack never ask the question. It seems so pointless to lie about. It really makes me doubt the writers. Do they really not even plan 4 episodes ahead?

I really have faith that they DO think at least for episodes ahead, this was just really dumb. maybe they somehow overlooked it, or thought it was cool or part of ben's character to have him lie.

note to writers: we know ben is a liar. please have him lie when needed, not all the time so we end up doubting you.

Hehe. Let's see how this pans out. Funny how little credit some give the writers.

Hehe. Let's see how this pans out. Funny how little credit some give the writers.

For real. Ben lies, that's what he does. His entire character is based around it. Even Danielle said to Sayid after she captured Ben, "He will lie for a long time". How prophetic that line turned out to be.

Ben also said that anyone that turns the wheel can never return to the island, but I refuse to believe that he's doing all this work without fully intending on going back himself.

We need to take into account that Locke has a busted up leg... So I suppose Ben would have gone to "see him".

Long time lurker, first time post. Go easy on me...

What if Ben isn't lying? He said that the last time he saw Locke was on the island. He said that he went to see Locke. Maybe he went to see him on the island... Maybe he went to see future Locke on the island in the past.

If you recall, in that scene in the season's first episode between Ben and Jack, Ben also lies when he says, "... and then Locke left."

Locke DIDN'T leave -- Ben did. Locke remained in the Orchid station and Ben left to go turn the Frozen Donkey Wheel... I've always wondered why Ben lied to Jack about this and if it was important.

How about this crazy idea: Prior to turning the wheel, Ben had obviously come and gone from the Island before. Since we don't know in what time Locke will now be in, what if Ben actually visited Locke on one of his trips prior to all this? Locke would still have the ring, Ben wouldn't be lying, and it would explain why Locke had to use a different name - to distinguish him from the John Locke that hadn't gone to the Island yet...

It's just Ben's way of manipulating words. That way he's not "technically lying." He never gives up information unless it's beneficial to him.

Exactly. Jack wanted to be able to trust him, that Ben despite past manipulations he had the same goal in mind and would work with them, be upfront, but he goes and proves once again why he's such a prickly guy to get along with.

It just seems so stupid to even set it up as a bone of contention, doesn't it? Make him not answer or make Jack never ask the question. It seems so pointless to lie about. It really makes me doubt the writers. Do they really not even plan 4 episodes ahead?

It's further showing that Ben can't be straightforward, that he has to hold things back and use semantics to dance around the issue of him lying. To me, they're reinforcing the dynamic he has with everyone else, specifically the oceanic six. Yes, he seems to be on their side and Jack even goes so far as to vouge for him when Kate reacts to seeing Ben, but Ben goes and undermines any slight trust he may have built up with Jack to that point.

He undermines any hope that Jack might have that Ben's changed, if even slightly.

I don't think it was a mistake at all on the writers part. I think they had a lot of these key points in these first episodes outlined in advance. Not much time has passed for sixers since we saw the season 4 finale. The writers had to have an idea as to where they were going with that arc at that point.

Also think Ben had some kind of hand in Locke's demise. I don't think he necessarily has to be the one to kill him, but we know from Sun's photos that Ben was being tailed. Ben may have went to see John and may have inadvertently led the people who did kill Locke to him.

Long time lurker, first time post. Go easy on me...

What if Ben isn't lying? He said that the last time he saw Locke was on the island. He said that he went to see Locke. Maybe he went to see him on the island... Maybe he went to see future Locke on the island in the past.

Best way to test the water is to just jump right in the deep end! Welcome from the shadows of the 'lage :cool: And now we dance...
:whitey::danceman1qf::pconfetti:

I thought Ben said he didnt see Locke since he turned the wheel? maybe have to rewatch

No! I remember clearly that Ben told Jack, the last time he saw Locke he was going up the Orchid elevator. Perhaps they had a phone conversation, or Ben had his eyes closed so he didn't see Locke when he was talking to him. But I think Ben is really up to something and can't be trusted.

We need to take into account that Locke has a busted up leg... So I suppose Ben would have gone to "see him".


We still dont know if Locke goes back to being paralyzed when he returns to the outside world. That would explain Ben having to go to him while he's getting himself mobile enough to visit the O6 members.

It's just Ben being a trixy douche as he usually is
twisting every possible word so that he is never technically lying.

We still dont know if Locke goes back to being paralyzed when he returns to the outside world. That would explain Ben having to go to him while he's getting himself mobile enough to visit the O6 members.

He had a shin bone poking thru his skin, which I was surprised to see on t.v.

Being off the island on normal heal time, I'd say he's atleast resigned to crutches off island. Maybe back to the chair as well. That's a mean looking break.

At the very least, he won't be driving a stick shift off island, I can tell you that.

He had a shin bone poking thru his skin, which I was surprised to see on t.v.

Being off the island on normal heal time, I'd say he's atleast resigned to crutches off island. Maybe back to the chair as well. That's a mean looking break.

At the very least, he won't be driving a stick shift off island, I can tell you that.

Was it a compound fracture he had? My TV is old and crappy and it looked just like a piece of metal or jagged rock or something sticking out that he must have landed on in the fall. Someone else referred to it as a broken bone too so I'm thinking my picture quality is just poor.

Ben was definitely lying to Jack earlier...

JACK: When was the last time you saw him? I mean Locke.

BEN: On the island...in the Orchid station, below the greenhouse. I told him I was sorry for making his life so miserable, and then he left.What frustrates me about Ben is that I really want to believe him. He sure sounded convincing when he slammed on the brakes in the van and told Jack and Sun that he has had their backs all along. I'm convinced that he has a plan, and that Richard, Hawking, and Widmore are the enemy. I think he approached John/Bentham with this plan, and that, for some reason, the rest of the O6 can't be in on the details just yet.

I'm surprised no one mentioned what Ben said in either the first or second episode when talking to Jack. It was something like this:

BEN - did Locke tell you what happened, when all of you left the island?
JACK - no
BEN - I guess we'll never know then

I don't know about everyone else, but for some reason that made me think that Ben had communication with Locke that he wasn't telling Jack.

There is NO WAY that the conflict between "I last saw him at the Orchid" and "he came to see me" is unintentional. Have we all forgotten the kind of PTB we're dealing with?

Have we also forgotten a time skipping Island and Time Travel? Locke going to see Ben didn't have to happen off the Island 2005-2008. Locke could have given him that ring in 1962 for all we know.

So yes, the "last time I saw Locke was at the Orchid" could absolutely be true.

I'll say it again: It was no coincidence that Locke used the same time of wording when he promised Jin he wouldn't go see Sun but "she might come to see me."

Also notice that there was no mention of Jeremy Bentham before Locke the Island. Where do you think he picked up that name? Maybe the "unpredictable" result of turning the wheel actually brought Locke back as Jeremy Bentham.

Ben was definitely lying to Jack earlier...

What frustrates me about Ben is that I really want to believe him. He sure sounded convincing when he slammed on the brakes in the van and told Jack and Sun that he has had their backs all along. I'm convinced that he has a plan, and that Richard, Hawking, and Widmore are the enemy. I think he approached John/Bentham with this plan, and that, for some reason, the rest of the O6 can't be in on the details just yet.

He did sound convincing when he slammed on the breaks, but Ben always sounds convincing, and he has a genius for knowing what buttons to push to get people to go along with him...I have no doubt that he can do an excellent job of feigning self-righteous indignation when it suits his purposes.

Ben was definitely lying to Jack earlier...

What frustrates me about Ben is that I really want to believe him. He sure sounded convincing when he slammed on the brakes in the van and told Jack and Sun that he has had their backs all along. I'm convinced that he has a plan, and that Richard, Hawking, and Widmore are the enemy. I think he approached John/Bentham with this plan, and that, for some reason, the rest of the O6 can't be in on the details just yet.

He feels it is the truth which is what makes Ben so pitiful. We've heard that speech before. Remember Ben saying "After everything I did to get you here? After everything I’ve done to keep you here?" Those words were sincere when he spoke them to Juliet, but they showed how creepy and twisted Ben's mind is -- as if Juliet wanted to be stalked by him, as if she wanted to have any part of him romantically.

All he did to protect them? So he protected Sayid? And so that man outside of Hurley's mental institution was one of Ben's? Maybe he should have let Sayid in on it. I don't know what the real truth is, but I do know that when it comes to something Ben has said, you cannot take any of the words at face value.

Ben may well end up doing the Losties some good, but right now all of their problems seem to stem from things he has done and I have a feeling we haven't learned all he's done yet.

I got the impression that Ben "went to see him" when he was dead and had the ring because he'd gone through his pockets. Not because he actually knew anything. The ring was inscribed in Korean and it was obvious who it would have belonged to. He used it as a manipulation tool as he always does.

Ben is on Ben's side. That is the most true statement that can be made. I *think* that what Ben wants to accomplish is to get back in Jacob's good graces and prove that he's not a failure after all. He had diverted the purpose of the others with his research into why women weren't surviving childbirth... he'd lost sight of what he should have been paying attention to.

I'm still going to say that Widmore is the bad guy, but I really don't want to lump any of the characters we've seen so far in with him just yet. I'm wholeheartedly against the idea of Hawking being anything but a good guy.

ben's lying. there might be more to it yet than we realize....i think the writers have gone above&beyond proving themselves...we'll see....

I'm surprised no one mentioned what Ben said in either the first or second episode when talking to Jack. It was something like this:

BEN - did Locke tell you what happened, when all of you left the island?
JACK - no
BEN - I guess we'll never know then

I don't know about everyone else, but for some reason that made me think that Ben had communication with Locke that he wasn't telling Jack.That scene you quoted struck me too. I thought he was lying when he said "I'll guess we'll never know then." But man, when he turned around and yelled at Sun and Jack with the "I've had your back" speech....that did seem convincing.

:shrug:

Let's see here:

Option 1: the writers, knowing the fine-toothed comb fans run over every second of the show, made a glaringly obvious error in dialogue.

Option 2: Lying, murdering, spiteful scumbag Ben Linus said something that may have been less than 100% honest.

Hmmmm. :)

-steve

I think Ben and Locke had a fight after Locke refused to tell Sun that Jin was alive.

I think this is a very fine example of how Ben is able to find the tiniest loop hole and use it to not actually have to lie.
thats how I see it:

jack asks: When was the last time you saw him? I mean Locke. (Note: he askes specifially for LOCKE)

ben answers "on the island... in the orchid station...

well... Locke is still Locke, of course. but when he left the island, he became Jeremy Bentham. Remember how they all didn't use his real name last season? Sayid even forbid Hurley to use it.
So, Ben refers in his answer to Jack to the last time he saw Locke and not Bentham :hypocrit:

in the other scene, the one before the church, we get another fine example of Ben's ability...
Jack: I thought he didn't come to see you
Ben: Yes, I went to see him

its just our good old Ben, the master manipulator...

I think this is a very fine example of how Ben is able to find the tiniest loop hole and use it to not actually have to lie.
thats how I see it:

jack asks: When was the last time you saw him? I mean Locke. (Note: he askes specifially for LOCKE)

ben answers "on the island... in the orchid station...

well... Locke is still Locke, of course. but when he left the island, he became Jeremy Bentham. Remember how they all didn't use his real name last season? Sayid even forbid Hurley to use it.
So, Ben refers in his answer to Jack to the last time he saw Locke and not Bentham :hypocrit:

in the other scene, the one before the church, we get another fine example of Ben's ability...
Jack: I thought he didn't come to see you
Ben: Yes, I went to see him

its just our good old Ben, the master manipulator...

Precisely! Jack added in "I mean Locke". I found it a little odd how Jack said that, it didn't seem to flow properly. Of course Ben hasn't seen Locke since the Island, because Locke is Bentham off Island. It's just another way Ben uses semantics to stretch the truth.

Welcome to the 'Lage Fisher!:wavey:

I just think its ben lying again. Im guessing his saw him off the island, he went to see John like he said. I assumed it was information Ben wanted to keep to hmself at first, hence the lies.

It's just Ben's way of manipulating words. That way he's not "technically lying." He never gives up information unless it's beneficial to him.
Exactly! it's just the same old Benjamin ways... he's been that way from the very beginning, hasn't changed. He's a master manipulator and word magician. You gotta love it!! lol

It just seems so stupid to even set it up as a bone of contention, doesn't it? Make him not answer or make Jack never ask the question. It seems so pointless to lie about. It really makes me doubt the writers. Do they really not even plan 4 episodes ahead?

What show are you watching that you would think they don't even plan 4 episodes ahead?? :confused:

Ben lied. I don't think his lying is pointless, I think he's lying to conceal the fact that he killed Locke.

Watched the first episode jack said WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU SAW LOCKE? BEN SAID ON THE ISLAND soooo writers screwed up

Unless ...hes considering him Bentham but either way hes not manipulating hes LYING or theres a writing error

Again, why would you think that the writers screwed up? Is it really that hard to picture Ben lying? :confused: That's what Ben does.

MKLOST I agree...Ben is outright lying and I think its BC he killed Locke. Hes trying to make it sound like another manipulation but this is different.

I agree.