When Ben left to do his errand did he confront Desmond and Penny? Is that why he is so banged up.

Absolutely. I kinda doubt he succeeded in killing Penny though. I bet Desmond beat up Ben. Desmond would do anything NOT to go back to the island.

Yeah, I think given that he was at a marina (Des and Penny live on a boat) and that he said in the church that he had to "tie up a loose end and keep a promise" (my mind immediately went to Penny when he said that) I think he certainly tried.

However, looks like Desmond gave him a good beating. Hopefully he did not succeed!

Here's hoping he lets that concept go.

Yeah, I think given that he was at a marina (Des and Penny live on a boat) and that he said in the church that he had to "tie up a loose end and keep a promise" (my mind immediately went to Penny when he said that) I think he certainly tried.

However, looks like Desmond gave him a good beating. Hopefully he did not succeed!

Yep, I think Desmond whooped his ***.

Someone did. He still could have killed Penny though.

If people have to recreate how they arrive back on the island, Desmond in a boat would fit that bill.

Very season one/two in format. It rocks you, socks you, and ultimately leaves you with more questions going into next week. Great episode.

Yes, this makes a lot of sense. One of the major plot lines for Ben off-Island.

I think if Desmond stopped him, he would have KILLED him. I think a more likely scenario is Desmond tried to stop him, and failed. Ben either killed Desmond too, or left him unconscious.

Silly me, I had originally thought Ben was going to Hurley and found Sayid watching him instead. I thought that Sayid had beat Ben, prompting his arrest, and then it was found that he had murdered all those men instead of Hurley.

This makes waaaay more sense, though. :biggrin:

It seems that way (that Ben went after Penny) but it could also be Ben had a scuffle with Sayid as Sayid didn't seem to happy to be there.

What would be better motivation for Desmond to try to sail back to the island than going after the man who killed the mother of his child?

I hope Ben killed Penny and now Desmond is determined to go back to the island to kill Ben. That would be interesting.

Yeah, I think given that he was at a marina (Des and Penny live on a boat) and that he said in the church that he had to "tie up a loose end and keep a promise" (my mind immediately went to Penny when he said that) I think he certainly tried.

However, looks like Desmond gave him a good beating. Hopefully he did not succeed!

Yup - Ben was at the marina and that boat can possibly be Desmond's. Also Mrs. Hawkings said that Desmond didn't know or have a reason to go back yet - now he does - to kill Ben for killing Penny!

Silly me, I had originally thought Ben was going to Hurley and found Sayid watching him instead. I thought that Sayid had beat Ben, prompting his arrest, and then it was found that he had murdered all those men instead of Hurley.

This makes waaaay more sense, though. :biggrin:


Good analysis but why would a cop be escorting him to Guam?

I fear he may have succeeded in killing Penny. His total lack of concern for the other people on the plane was a reminder of how cold he can be.

(Why didn't Jack ask Ben what happened to him?!)

Unfortunately, Penny could very well be dead. This would force Desmond to "team up" with Widmore... which is how they "get back."

Besides, if Ben had failed in killing Penny, I seriously doubt he'd still be alive!

I don't think Ben killed Penny, but I think he did something just as worse.

Good analysis but why would a cop be escorting him to Guam?
My thoughts were that the marshall was present taking him to Guam where (when he was working for Ben as an assassin) he is wanted for someone else's murder.

Totally hypothetical, but you never know.

Good thoughts,,, Its quite possible that he did kill Penny,, although at this point I dont think he did... My main point is ,,, why on earth would he feel he had o do it himself ? Widmore didnt kill Alex,, Ben could have had alot of people do it for him, including Sayid,,, which is remotely possible,,, but Guam ? Why on earth would Sayid be extradited to Guam ? Has anyone in the show so far been from Guam ?

Unfortunately, Penny could very well be dead. This would force Desmond to "team up" with Widmore... which is how they "get back."

I LOVE this idea! I'd feel bad for Desmond, little Charlie, and of course Penny. But for a storyline this would be great!

What would be better motivation for Desmond to try to sail back to the island than going after the man who killed the mother of his child?
I hope Ben killed Penny and now Desmond is determined to go back to the island to kill Ben. That would be interesting.
Good thinking you too. Talk about recreating people's ways back to the island!!

(Why didn't Jack ask Ben what happened to him?!)

He was probably afraid of the answer.

What would be better motivation for Desmond to try to sail back to the island than going after the man who killed the mother of his child?

Exactly.

Good analysis but why would a cop be escorting him to Guam?

Ben may not be the only one hoping to get the oceanic six back to the island. Someone was trying to capture Sayid using tranq guns. My bet is the lady escorting Sayid is working for Widmore. And since they gave that other guy some lines too, I'd wager the two are working together.

Perhaps he was in the process of killing Des/Penny, but something prevented him or kept him from completing the job. I'm thinking that perhaps Des and Penny were both unconscious and bloodied, and just as Ben was going to finish the job...something (what-I have no idea) stopped him from doing it.

I fear he may have succeeded in killing Penny. His total lack of concern for the other people on the plane was a reminder of how cold he can be.

(Why didn't Jack ask Ben what happened to him?!)

He probably figured that Ben wouldn't tell him or he would tell him another lie.

My thoughts were that the marshall was present taking him to Guam where (when he was working for Ben as an assassin) he is wanted for someone else's murder.

Totally hypothetical, but you never know.

I thought when I saw it that, with all the emphasis placed on recreating the circumstances of the flight, someone would have to be under arrest...Sayid was just the one willing to be. He has no one to get back off the island for, now that Nadia's dead.

I hope that tptb have left at least one happy couple together, but it would be just like them to have Ben kill Penny and Des hunt him down. I'm hoping that there was a fight and Ben narrowly escaped with his own life. He was wet so must have been thrown off the boat.

Cardie

Someone did. He still could have killed Penny though.

If people have to recreate how they arrive back on the island, Desmond in a boat would fit that bill.

Very season one/two in format. It rocks you, socks you, and ultimately leaves you with more questions going into next week. Great episode.

What you just posted put it together. I do not think that Ben succeeded in killing Penny but I do think he succeeded in getting Desmond and Penny to leave the marina in the boat to get away from Ben. If you remember what Ms Hawking told Demond: that the island is not through with him yet. She did not tell him that he needed to return with the group but the island not being through with him. That is great.Lets just keep our fingers crossed that Penny is alive and well on the boat.

I hope that tptb have left at least one happy couple together, but it would be just like them to have Ben kill Penny and Des hunt him down. I'm hoping that there was a fight and Ben narrowly escaped with his own life. He was wet so must have been thrown off the boat.

Cardie

Totally agree. I think a lot of us invested a lot of emotions in this couple to see them killed off.

I agree that Ben having killed Penny is a possibility, and it makes sense plot-wise as motivation for Desmond, but Ben did not seem creepily satisfied enough for that to have been what he had just accomplished. I thought Ben had gotten Sayid arrested somehow, but the Penny thing makes more sense. If Ben did kill her, I wonder if he's hoping Widmore will change the rules again to bring her back, allowing Alex to somehow come back as well.

i feel the dread! i am truly worried. the scene where hawking to des that the island was not finished with him. he will never go back to the island willingly as long as he has charlie and penny. so, i'm really thinking bad things ben was at a marina where their boat is probably docked. the only thing positive that i can think is that someone was there to beat the crap out of ben to protect penny. it may have been desmond, but quite possibly widmore's people. ben is injured pretty badly, and deserving i might add.

she better not be dead!!!

I will jump through the television and kill Ben myself if he succeeded in killing Penny.
:mad:
What would be better motivation for Desmond to try to sail back to the island than going after the man who killed the mother of his child?

:nervous:

Unfortunately, Penny could very well be dead. This would force Desmond to "team up" with Widmore... which is how they "get back."

Besides, if Ben had failed in killing Penny, I seriously doubt he'd still be alive!

Teaming up with Widmore.... so unlikely.... so possible....

My thoughts were that the marshall was present taking him to Guam where (when he was working for Ben as an assassin) he is wanted for someone else's murder.

Totally hypothetical, but you never know.

Yeah, good point, actually.



Ben may not be the only one hoping to get the oceanic six back to the island. Someone was trying to capture Sayid using tranq guns. My bet is the lady escorting Sayid is working for Widmore. And since they gave that other guy some lines too, I'd wager the two are working together.

No, I'm pretty sure the tranq guns were a Ben trick, right?

What you just posted put it together. I do not think that Ben succeeded in killing Penny but I do think he succeeded in getting Desmond and Penny to leave the marina in the boat to get away from Ben. If you remember what Ms Hawking told Demond: that the island is not through with him yet. She did not tell him that he needed to return with the group but the island not being through with him. That is great.Lets just keep our fingers crossed that Penny is alive and well on the boat.

Right, good... here's my question: does Desmond really have to go back? If the O6 and Lefties are now in the 1970s, and the TT has stopped, then won't they continue to live/age in the 1970s. Eventually in the 1990s (uh, sorry, I mean.... 2000?), Desmond will show up again. Right?

Well it seems as though Penny WILL die at one point or another, its just a matter of how. My initial guess was that since Desmond refused to return to the island that "wasn't done with him" yet, he would end up paying for it, and returning anyways (i.e. his and Penny's boat crashes on the island, and kills Charlie and Penny while Desmond survives)

but now I'm left wondering whether somehow Ben killed Penny and Charlie and left Desmond alone on the boat to FIND the island in revenge, rather than just happen upon it.

just a thought ... if Ben did kill Penny (I hope he didn't because I love Penny) ...but if he did..
then perhaps that is what will bring Desmond back to the island? ...he will bring Penny who will become alive again on the island?

On second thought Ben did NOT kill Penny. Think about it. Ben killing Penny would be one the more dramatic acts of this show to date. If Ben does actually kill Penny they will show it as the emotional pull for us watching would be way to great to simply gloss over it.

Well, if that is what happened, we will definitely see it at some point. I don't think they just glossed it over.

Think of Ben turning the donkey wheel. We initially saw what happened right afterward and it didn't seem to have all that emotional pull. But when we saw the scene that immediately preceded it, I felt it was very powerful.

They want us to think Ben killed Penny and that something awful happened to Aaron, but we'll just have to wait to see whether that's actually the case.

Cardie

On second thought Ben did NOT kill Penny. Think about it. Ben killing Penny would be one the more dramatic acts of this show to date. If Ben does actually kill Penny they will show it as the emotional pull for us watching would be way to great to simply gloss over it.They may just show it yet. And if there are parallels maybe Charlie Hume will be the "replacement" for Aaron.

Besides, Penny has to die so Desmond can go back to the island and hook up with Claire! :biggrin:

unless desmond has to go back to the island to do something with the button again and when he is back kills the younger ben so he can never kill penny thus when he leaves the island again, she is alive again.

I think it's a mislead. What exactly did Ben say? Something about seeing an "old friend?" I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Annie yet.

unless desmond has to go back to the island to do something with the button again and when he is back kills the younger ben so he can never kill penny thus when he leaves the island again, she is alive again.

Correct.

Penny, and possibly Charlie, are dead by Ben's hand. Desmond put up a fight, but Ben left him alive to get word back to Widmore. Widmore once again helps Desmond get back to the island [extreme speculation] and Widmore himself comes with him, but this time Ben has his chess pieces prepared, hence the showdown between the two big-baddies of the show in S6. [end extreme speculation]

However, since Desmond has proven time and again that he is outside Time's laws, he is able to save Penny from somewhere in the past, and they do have their happy ending.

I just don't know if Ben would be so shaken up if he'd just killed Penny. It's possible, but I think he would be more composed if he'd succeeded. At this point I'm prepared to find out little Aaron went to the boat and killed Charlie and Penny, Ben happened upon the scene and got his butt beat by the little boy. Then Aaron went and got Desmond and told him to sail him to the Island so he could have his revenge on his two mothers. That's right, Aaron is an evil 3 year old hell-bent on destroying everyone we love.

It sure looks like he tried. Considering he's still walking, I wouldn't be surprised to find out he succeeded.

I think it is suggestive that Ben is reading Joyce's Ulysses shortly after leaving Penny's and Des's boat. The posting on "Ulysses" is interesting - maybe his reading selection sheds light on what occurred between him and Penny? (By the way, I don't think even Ben could kill a mother in front of her toddler...too many daddy issues with these characters as it is.)

I think he either:

a) Killed Penny and knocked out Desmond (Des is no match for Ben) and escaped. He was shook up when he called Jack because the revenge did not taste as sweet as he had thought it would. (Sawyer with Locke's dad)

b) Knocked out Desmond, and just before killing Penny, sees their son and can't bring himself to kill her. (Ben grew up without a mother)

c) Failed in killing Penny, yet somehow escaped with his life (Desmond would not let Ben get away alive)

d) Something unrelated to Penny.

I am leaning toward a), because it would give Desmond the motivation to return to the island and exact his revenge on Ben despite the fact that he is "through with the island"

nah i believe ben got into a fight with sayid and then got him arrested and boarded onto the plane by a police friend

who was that girl that brought sayid onto the plane
has she appeared before?

Whatever Ben did...someone else took a beating too....according to this pic it looks like most of the blood is not his blood. If it was his blood there would be wounds next to the blood. It looks like someone else's blood got on him...although he did get hurt in the process too.

http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/c7c6b3f92a1f24cc5f4d8c1532550f31

In this second pic it looks like a few chunks on his face too...maybe he beat someone to death or shot them...but with his injuries I'm betting on a beating.

http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/eeb92aedc11bfe0ba1c596c61128ae42

Oh man, I really hope that Ben didn't kill Penny! :-( Penny and Desmond deserve to be happy, they've had enough drama!

But this is LOST, so I definitely can see it happening since it would be motivation for Desmond to get back to the island. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Sayid has no visible injuries...he isn't the one Ben met up with at the docks.

Penny, and possibly Charlie, are dead by Ben's hand. Desmond put up a fight, but Ben left him alive to get word back to Widmore. Widmore once again helps Desmond get back to the island [extreme speculation] and Widmore himself comes with him, but this time Ben has his chess pieces prepared, hence the showdown between the two big-baddies of the show in S6. [end extreme speculation]

However, since Desmond has proven time and again that he is outside Time's laws, he is able to save Penny from somewhere in the past, and they do have their happy ending.

Agreed. Penny is dead. Desmond now has motivation to return to the island.
Revenge.

I think he either:

a) Killed Penny and knocked out Desmond (Des is no match for Ben) and escaped. He was shook up when he called Jack because the revenge did not taste as sweet as he had thought it would. (Sawyer with Locke's dad)

b) Knocked out Desmond, and just before killing Penny, sees their son and can't bring himself to kill her. (Ben grew up without a mother)

c) Failed in killing Penny, yet somehow escaped with his life (Desmond would not let Ben get away alive)

d) Something unrelated to Penny.

I am leaning toward a), because it would give Desmond the motivation to return to the island and exact his revenge on Ben despite the fact that he is "through with the island"


uhh, desmond was in the army. he's more than a match for ben.

...(Why didn't Jack ask Ben what happened to him?!)

My guess is they're so used to seeing Ben beat up that it's just an interesting question for them anymore. ;)

I think Desmond gave him a beating for getting near his happy family. No dead Penny. No dead Charlie.

I hope that tptb have left at least one happy couple together, but it would be just like them to have Ben kill Penny and Des hunt him down. I'm hoping that there was a fight and Ben narrowly escaped with his own life. He was wet so must have been thrown off the boat.

Cardie
I like this scenario, Cardie. I just don't want Penny to have to die, especially since they have a little boy. If Des goes off an a revenge hunt, instead of taking care of his son, I will be most disappointed in Desmond David Hume.

I think it would make Ben too unlikable if he succeeded. The writers want us to root for/sympathize with Ben, that would become very difficult if he killed Penny, although it would be interesting if he did kill her or charlie.

I think he either:

a) Killed Penny and knocked out Desmond (Des is no match for Ben) and escaped. He was shook up when he called Jack because the revenge did not taste as sweet as he had thought it would. (Sawyer with Locke's dad)

b) Knocked out Desmond, and just before killing Penny, sees their son and can't bring himself to kill her. (Ben grew up without a mother)

c) Failed in killing Penny, yet somehow escaped with his life (Desmond would not let Ben get away alive)

d) Something unrelated to Penny.

I am leaning toward a), because it would give Desmond the motivation to return to the island and exact his revenge on Ben despite the fact that he is "through with the island"

I choose 1b. Desmond leaves Penny, and baby Charlie in LA, and goes after the man that harmed his family to make sure it doesn't happen again.

If the writers kill off Penny, the fans would revolt, so I don't think they'd choose this subplot. Also, I prefer Ben's story arc be one of redemption.

I think Ben got his job done in killing Penny. I don't see much of a point for Penny anymore. She and Desmond had their happy reunion and I don't think she'll ever end up on the island like Desmond will. I think Ben killed her and she might of put of a little fight by scratching him in the face. I don't think Desmond knows about it yet. I think he didn't seem happy because maybe Charlie witnessed Ben kill his mother.

I think Widmore had men tracking Desmond from the moment he showed up looking for Faraday's mother. I think those men were supposed to bring Ben back to Widmore just like Keamy was. I think Ben killed them all, but he got hurt in the process.

I have no idea what will bring Desmond back to the Island, but I think Penny's earlier decision to go with him foreshodowed that she will end up on the Island as well.

I agree Jynes. If Ben killed Penny, the audience would never ever see Ben as "one of the good guys"!

Desmond is the MAN, and Penny is his one true love. I could not stand it if Penny got killed! I was horrified at my Johnny Locke in that coffin... but it would be nothing compared to my anguish if Desmond was deprived of his Penny. :(

I think the most likely scenario is that Widmore had his men follow Desmond after Desmond's visit to his office, then they found Penny, and have been watching her ever since. When Ben did the same thing - tracked Desmond to Penny after meeting him with Ms. Hawking - he found Widmore's men waiting for him.

To that end, I think Widmore will once again convince Desmond to take to sea - in order to protect Penny and Charlie forever from Ben - and that's what will make him go back to the island.

My best hope - Penny and Desmond forever!

I think Darlton are pulling a big con on all of you right now- either Benjamin was doing something that had nothing to do with Penny and Desmond whatsoever, or it will turn out that he ended up protecting them from someone/something...

I think you're wrong if you think Ben wouldn't go after Penny, no matter how much you may like Ben. Widmore killed Ben's daughter, and Ben (and the other "others") seem very much about an eye for an eye to me.

Whether Ben killed Penny or not Desmond will be deprived of his Penny no matter what. Desmond is going back to the Island. Remember that Ben told Jack to take whatever personal belongings he wanted because he would never be coming back. So once Desmond goes back it's forever.

I completely believe that the loose end Ben was talking about was Penny. Once he saw Desmond he knew that Penny would be with him and I can't see Ben going back without keeping his word to Widmore that he would kill Penny. I think odds are that he succeeded becuase that would compel Desmond to go back. Des doesn't need Widmore to get back since he can go directly to Ms. Hawking to find the next window for him to get back.

I think Des caught him on the boat after Ben did the deed. He beat Ben and Ben went overboard and got away. I also think Ben had Sayid arrested and Aaron taken away from Kate. He has orchastrated everything.

nah i believe ben got into a fight with sayid and then got him arrested and boarded onto the plane by a police friend

who was that girl that brought sayid onto the plane
has she appeared before?
The woman brought Sayid on the plane. Sayid was handcuffed to her and she is FBI, a detective, homeland security or something of that sort. No this is the first time she has appeared.

Well I have no doubt that Ben's "promise to an old friend" mission was the killing of Penny. My hope is that after getting into a fight with Des and knocking him out, as he's about to kill Penny, he sees Charlie, and realized he couldn't go through with it...

...the problem is "the Island isn't done with" Des yet, which rather leads me to believe that Ben was successful in killing Penny, prob not seeing Charlie till after he had done the deed, hence why he's so shaken up when he calls Jack. Penny's death is what will drive Des back to the Island, on his boat, recreating how he 1st got to the Island. :frown:

It looked like Ben was at the docks (the phone booth had a sticker that said Long Beach) when he called Jack. Penny and little Charlie could still be on the boat while Desmond went to the church to see Mrs. Hawking.

Could be Ben went there to find and kill Penny (as he told Widmore he would)

(Admin: if this has already been posted, sorry..you can remove. The search option is being screwy)

Oh boy. I hope not, but that does sound possible. Didn't he tell Jack before he left the Lampost that he had some unfinished business to take care of? Man I hope not. :(

I doubt he was successful, or we would have seen it.

I doubt he was successful, or we would have seen it.
Just because we haven't yet, doesn't mean we won't. If it did happen, we might not find out about it or the specifics until Desmond comes back to the island looking for Ben.

Just because we haven't yet, doesn't mean we won't. If it did happen, we might not find out about it or the specifics until Desmond comes back to the island looking for Ben.

I completely agree. I'd like to think he wasn't successful....maybe some of Widmore's cronies got in his way. But it looked like Ben had scratches on his face...maybe from Penny?

My guess we'll see more of Ben's story fleshed out in the next few episodes.

Go murder someone, then board a commercial airliner without even washing off the blood?
Doesn't sound like a Ben plan to me.
I think he was the attackee, not the attacker.

I keep wondering if maybe he blew the boat (or something else) up and was a little too close when it happened. Hence his injuries. Just a theory, no evidence.

Go murder someone, then board a commercial airliner without even washing off the blood?
Doesn't sound like a Ben plan to me.
I think he was the attackee, not the attacker.


Agreed. Someone attacked Ben. And I think that same someone is the reason behind what happened to Aaron. But who or what is the question?

i think it's a terrible possiblity. i'm hoping that either desmond put up a good fight or one of widmore's goons who are probably stationed "watching" over her. and the fact that we didn't see it doesn't mean anything. we haven't seen what happened to aaron.

lost writers like to do their flashback's you know!:rolleyes:

I thought penny stayed behind in Sydney while Desmond went to find Faraday's Mother.

i think it's a terrible possiblity. i'm hoping that either desmond put up a good fight or one of widmore's goons who are probably stationed "watching" over her. and the fact that we didn't see it doesn't mean anything. we haven't seen what happened to aaron.

There's a lot we haven't seen.

This episode was supposed to air next week and was switched. I think we'll see some gaps filled in when "Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham" airs, since it originally came before "316".

I truly believe benny went and paid penny a visit-and it didn't go well! I just rewatched and when ben leaves jack he says "I have a loose end to tie up-I have a promise I made to an old friend". He told or warned that he would kill penny and now it looks like he has tried-and maybe succeeded :(

I would venture a guess that his effort was thwarted by Widmore's goons or Desmond maybe but how is it he returns to board the plain and not one of the O6 are even curious as to the condition of his face or the fact his arm is now in a sling. Jacks more interested in the fact that he reading and asks him what hes doing but decides not to ask, "What the heck happened to your face?"

I've gotta stick with the idea that Ben left, found Desmond and Penny, tried (or possibly succeeded) in killing penny and took off after receiving a major beat down at the hands of Desmond (Brotha')...

I think this will lead to Desmond confronting Whidmore again, which will for them to unite with a common goal of killing Benjamin Linus! The island isn't done with Desmond yet!!!

I've gotta stick with the idea that Ben left, found Desmond and Penny, tried (or possibly succeeded) in killing penny and took off after receiving a major beat down at the hands of Desmond (Brotha')...

I think this will lead to Desmond confronting Whidmore again, which will for them to unite with a common goal of killing Benjamin Linus! The island isn't done with Desmond yet!!!

i totally agree

I thought penny stayed behind in Sydney while Desmond went to find Faraday's Mother.

Very good, NightMystic... I think you're right.

But could it be possible that Ben could've traveled to England and back in time to catch the Ajira flight? I think he had about 35 hours, it seems like it would've been enough time. And he could've followed Desmond after Desmond left the church.

I really hope that he didn't do what this thread questions, but it definitely all points in that direction. Regardless of his own injuries, I have no reason to think that he didn't succeed in whatever he set out to do.

As I mentioned in another thread, I think Ben being bloodied does have something to do with Penny. And I did catch, while he was reading Ulysses, that he mentioned to Jack that there was a section in there on "Penelope". I thought it odd at the time, but now thinking about what might have happened, it could be related. Does anyone know about Penelope, in Ulysses?

Already being discussed here (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=107914)

Umm, sorry if someone already posted this, but I only remember 1 promise that Ben has made to "an old friend", and that was when he promised Widmore that he would "kill his daughter"... Penny... who we know was also in LA with Desmond. Who gave Ben his bruises? Did Des catch him trying to hurt Penny? Did Penny defend herself? Did Charles have people waiting to protect Penny? And the biggest question, did Ben succeed and is Penny still alive?

I, for one, think that EVERYONE who left the island will end up back there. So, what would be larger motivation for Des to go back than to get Ben, who has killed his Penny?

Umm, sorry if someone already posted this, but I only remember 1 promise that Ben has made to "an old friend", and that was when he promised Widmore that he would "kill his daughter"... Penny... who we know was also in LA with Desmond. Who gave Ben his bruises? Did Des catch him trying to hurt Penny? Did Penny defend herself? Did Charles have people waiting to protect Penny? And the biggest question, did Ben succeed and is Penny still alive?

I, for one, think that EVERYONE who left the island will end up back there. So, what would be larger motivation for Des to go back than to get Ben, who has killed his Penny?

I think you are right, but if Ben actually killed Penny, that would just suck. But yeah, something definitely happened to Penny, because that would be the only way to get Des back to the Island.

I think if Penny got killed, they'd show it as it happened...it's kind of a huge deal. But I guess it could be that.

I think if Penny got killed, they'd show it as it happened...it's kind of a huge deal. But I guess it could be that.

Totally calling a flashback scene for this

I've gotta stick with the idea that Ben left, found Desmond and Penny, tried (or possibly succeeded) in killing penny and took off after receiving a major beat down at the hands of Desmond (Brotha')...

I think this will lead to Desmond confronting Whidmore again, which will for them to unite with a common goal of killing Benjamin Linus! The island isn't done with Desmond yet!!!

My thoughts exactly. Protecting Penny and Charlie or avenging their deaths is the only possible reason that Desmond would go back to the island. He hates the island with a passion.

I'm sure we'll find out, but my money is on Widmore having guys following Desmond to protect Penny and probably bring Ben back just like Keamy was supposed to.

I'm sure we'll find out, but my money is on Widmore having guys following Desmond to protect Penny and probably bring Ben back just like Keamy was supposed to.
I'm with you!

I'm thinking the rest of this season is going to be showing the 'flashbacks' of how each of the Oceanic 5 ended up on the plane....

I'm not totally sure that Ben's "promise to an old friend" and the bruises and scratches on his face are necessarily related. Of course I'm very sure that we'll be shown what happened to him during that time between saying goodbye to Jack and his telephone call the next morning from the pier.

However, I do have a theory that perhaps at least some of that bruising came from the hands of Kate. This is being talked about in this other thread (Bruises on Kate's Shoulder? (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=108059)), but the theory is that Kate has what could possibly be bruises on her shoulder that might (again possibly) have come from Ben's telescoping baton which he loves to use. But, the screencap (http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/ca16aceb1a1e42873dfba7a780ff0c55) that shows this is just not that clear, so it's hard to say for sure. Still, that whole shot was done, it seems, in order to SHOW us SOMEthing, and well, there ya go... Judge for yourselves! LOL! :biggrin:

I'm sure we'll find out, but my money is on Widmore having guys following Desmond to protect Penny and probably bring Ben back just like Keamy was supposed to.

OR...

Ben plans to blow up Penny's boat but accidentally kills her son Charlie instead. Ben's face wounds look like glass shards from an explosion. And killing Widmore's only grandson would definitely be equal to Danielle's death in both Ben and Widmore's view.

Desmond's Charlie had to be introduced for a reason. Des and Penny get motivation to travel to the island to find Ben, maybe even teaming with Widmore.

Just a thought.

I thought penny stayed behind in Sydney while Desmond went to find Faraday's Mother.

Wasn't the last place we saw them both, they were in England? then Desi goes to Oxford, then off to LA.Or am i mixed up?Could their boat have gotten to Long Beach harbor? we never did find out why Benry wanted them all to meet up there. Then we see him on the pay phone from there all bloody.

I read on Jeff Jensen this morning that is what Benry likely had in mind, but i sure hope he didn't succeed.
Man, that guy sure likes to get beat up!
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Already being discussed here (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=107914)

Can these threads be merged?

Umm, sorry if someone already posted this, but I only remember 1 promise that Ben has made to "an old friend", and that was when he promised Widmore that he would "kill his daughter"... Penny... who we know was also in LA with Desmond. Who gave Ben his bruises? Did Des catch him trying to hurt Penny? Did Penny defend herself? Did Charles have people waiting to protect Penny? And the biggest question, did Ben succeed and is Penny still alive?

I, for one, think that EVERYONE who left the island will end up back there. So, what would be larger motivation for Des to go back than to get Ben, who has killed his Penny?

I fervantly hope this is not the case.

I'm walking on a way out plank here: I was thinking Ben was battered up by the torturer, Sayid. Since Ben needed Sayid to go back & since he always has a plan, it might just very well have something to do with Ben fighting with Sayid but Ben winning out, having Sayid put in handcuffs & carted off to the waiting plane by another one of his Los Angeles "friends". call me nuts but I just have a weird feeling Ben's bloody face came about by Sayid.

I thought penny stayed behind in Sydney while Desmond went to find Faraday's Mother.

Wasn't the last place we saw them both, they were in England? then Desi goes to Oxford, then off to LA.Or am i mixed up? Could their boat have gotten to Long Beach harbor? we never did find out why Benry wanted them all to meet up there. Then we see him on the pay phone from there all bloody.

I read on Jeff Jensen this morning that is what Benry likely had in mind, but i sure hope he didn't succeed.
Man, that guy sure likes to get beat up!

Does one pray, light a candle in the church, deliver a short sermon on St. Thomas, and then go out for a quick revenge kill? I think not. All signs point to reform for Ben. (Although there was that "who cares" when Jack asked about the rest of the people on the plane. Hmm.) I definitely think TPTB want us to be worried about Penny, but I think it's not what happened. Besides, Des left way before Ben, he would have been there to protect her.

I thought penny stayed behind in Sydney while Desmond went to find Faraday's Mother.

Wasn't the last place we saw them both, they were in England? then Desi goes to Oxford, then off to LA.Or am i mixed up?Could their boat have gotten to Long Beach harbor? we never did find out why Benry wanted them all to meet up there. Then we see him on the pay phone from there all bloody.

I read on Jeff Jensen this morning that is what Benry likely had in mind, but i sure hope he didn't succeed.
Man, that guy sure likes to get beat up!
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Can these threads be merged?

I'll give Ben credit for being able to take a beating.

I absolutely think Ben was going to make good on his threat to Penny's life and think he was wounded in the process. GAWD, I can't wait to see what happened. I hope the boy is safe. Penny's death would allow Des to go back to the island but would he take wee Charlie with him? I asked in another thread, if Pen does die, would Des hand young Charlie over to old Charles?

The Hume family was in England last we saw them.
The boat could not have gotten to LA in the time allotted.
Penny did indicate that she would be going with him. (To Faraday's mother, not the island.)

Ben looks like he was in the water. So I'm going with whoever put the beaten on Ben, threw him in the water, either thinking he was dead, or leaving him to die. And of course, its not the easy to get rid of Ben.

For those sketchy about Penny's whereabouts, here's part of the transcript from "Jughead." Basically, Penny is in LA.

PENNY: [deep breath] And what happens if you wake up tomorrow and you remember something else?

DESMOND: I'll forget it.

PENNY: And the next day?

DESMOND: I'll forget it. It doesn’t matter Pen. You are my life now, you and Charlie. [pauses] I won't leave you again. Not for this, not for anything.

[Desmond gently puts his hands around Penny's neck. A pause then Penny starts shaking her head side to side.]

PENNY: You'll never forget it, Des. So I guess we're going with you.

That was my thought too, I don't think TPTB would let Ben kill a girl himself, he gets other people to do it for him, so I think he egged Sayid on and then had him arrested but why would they take Sayid back to Guam? There's something we're missing.

I really don't think Desmond would go back to the island unless something happened to Penny. Mrs. Hawking said the island wasn't done with him, so unless it has a hold on him like Michael, who ended up "going back" in a way anyway, he needs to actually go to the island. Probably by boat, with the help of Charles Widmore, bringing everything full circle- Des was in the boat originally to "win back" Penny, now he will once again try to go to the island via boat to try to go back in time and save Penny or avenge her death.

I agree, I don't know why but I also had the feeling that Ben's injuries came from Sayid. Ben seemed rather shocked to see Sayid on the plane, I sensed something between them that wasn't said.

Good thoughts,,, Its quite possible that he did kill Penny,, although at this point I dont think he did... My main point is ,,, why on earth would he feel he had to do it himself ? Widmore didnt kill Alex,, Ben could have had alot of people do it for him, including Sayid,,,

This makes me think back to when we found Sayid was working for Ben, and Ben was fixing his bullet wound in the back room of a vet clinic. Ben said "I have another name for you" and the next thing we see, Sayid hates Ben and tells Hurley not to trust him. Perhaps he told Sayid he needed to kill Penny? There's no way Sayid would do that.

I'm not totally sure that Ben's "promise to an old friend" and the bruises and scratches on his face are necessarily related. Of course I'm very sure that we'll be shown what happened to him during that time between saying goodbye to Jack and his telephone call the next morning from the pier.

However, I do have a theory that perhaps at least some of that bruising came from the hands of Kate. This is being talked about in this other thread (Bruises on Kate's Shoulder? (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=108059)), but the theory is that Kate has what could possibly be bruises on her shoulder that might (again possibly) have come from Ben's telescoping baton which he loves to use. But, the screencap (http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/ca16aceb1a1e42873dfba7a780ff0c55) that shows this is just not that clear, so it's hard to say for sure. Still, that whole shot was done, it seems, in order to SHOW us SOMEthing, and well, there ya go... Judge for yourselves! LOL! :biggrin:

Those look like more than bruises to me- that was a good catch. But I think whoever had Kate's address and whoever attacked Sayid was waiting for Kate at her house. Kate got into a fight and killed them trying to save Aaron. Now she knows it is either go back to the island or go back to jail for murder. So Kate puts Aaron with someone unconnected to her (so he can't be found) and then goes to Jack's place. That explains her sunglasses and furtive looks.

Killing Penny would get Desmond back to the island, if only for revenge on Ben. But perhaps when Ben sees Penny has a kid he can't kill a mother. If Ben could get Desmond and Penny back to the island, that would make her dead to Widmore. Then he couldn't find either.

The Lampost is a danger to the island. Widmore could use it to find the island again like he probably used it to get back with Dharma the first time. Since Ben didn't seem to have any affection for Eloise (or trust -twice he asked Jack what she said to him when they were alone) I wonder if he didn't blow up the church and the Lampost with it. The injuries on Ben's face are primarily on one side as if that side was facing toward something that blew up.

I don't know that whole speech of Ben's too obviously points to Penny. Ben is rarely obvious. I think if this ep had followed episode 7 as the writers had planned, it would have answered questions instead of posing more.

Like Lobby said. Ms Hawking told Des the island's not through with him yet. The only way I see Des going to the island is if Penny's dead, and even then he'd need a reason - like revenge.

...I think if this ep had followed episode 7 as the writers had planned, it would have answered questions instead of posing more.

I agree, I think that we may get some glimpse into Ben's misadventures in the upcoming Locke story which was supposed to happen before this episode.

That being said, if there is a slow reveal over the course of the rest of the episodes of the season detailing how the O6 came to be on the plane, that would be a very nice piece of storytelling.

If Pen is dead, I would lose some faith in the show. I do believe that, no matter how grim the show has come to be, there will be at least ONE happy ending. Des and Pen has turned out to be one of the emotional and cathartic cores of the show. If Pen dies, my heart will break. It does give Desmond a reason to go back to the island, but I'd like to commit to the fact that Hawking told Des that the island isn't done with him. I hope that has nothing to do with Pen.

I think the most likely scenario is that Widmore had his men follow Desmond after Desmond's visit to his office, then they found Penny, and have been watching her ever since. When Ben did the same thing - tracked Desmond to Penny after meeting him with Ms. Hawking - he found Widmore's men waiting for him.

To that end, I think Widmore will once again convince Desmond to take to sea - in order to protect Penny and Charlie forever from Ben - and that's what will make him go back to the island.

My best hope - Penny and Desmond forever!

This is actually my preferred scenario too -- no Penny death, but enough of a scare that Des is convinced he can't just walk away from the Ben/Wid skirmish if he hopes to keep his family safe. Also, Wid following Des will negate the big problem I had with their Jughead conversation, that Wid never warned Des about Ben. If Wid had people follow them, and keep an eye on Penny, I can easily believe those people helped keep her safe when Ben came after her.

Then, we have all parties satisfied (except Ben) -- Penny is still alive, but shaken, Des is convinced to, maybe not go back to the island, but at least play some part in the "game", this time on Widmore's side against Ben. I like setting up more people in Widmore's camp, because it raises the stakes a bit higher.

Silly me, I had originally thought Ben was going to Hurley and found Sayid watching him instead. I thought that Sayid had beat Ben, prompting his arrest, and then it was found that he had murdered all those men instead of Hurley.

I think this makes TONS of sense. I certainly hope it's true. My mind immediately went to Penny, and I really want the Hume clan to all be okay.

Ack! This thread is stressful! I so deeply don't want Penny to be dead. Mostly because she is awesome, but also because I would think that would be a scene important/suspenseful enough to show us in present-time (I know the mystery is part of the show, but still!). However, I agree that it will take a major event to get Des back to the Island, so I'm worried. When Ben said his line about the promise to the old friend I yelled at the TV, because I totally thought of Widmore and Penny. Plus, Penelope and Ulysses doesn't seem like a good sign.

I do like the Annie idea though... :crossesfingers:

I don't think Ben killed Penny.

Just because Ben called Jack from the dock doesn't mean Desmond and his boat were involved. I think it would take too long for Des to get to the US by sailboat. Faster for him to leave Penny behind and fly. If Ben had killed Penny on her boat at the dock and it had involved a big enough fight to cause those injuries to Ben, people would have heard and called the police. Why would Ben stay around afterward looking all bloody, injured and guilty to call Jack? He would get out of Dodge, clean up to get rid of the evidence and then call Jack. Ben wouldn't risk missing the window to the island because he was in jail. Even for revenge.

So Ben was at that particular slip for some other reason. We saw it earlier as the place Ben told Jack to meet him. Why did Ben pick that of all places? Maybe because *he* had a boat and that was where it was docked. After Ben was injured, he went back to his boat and was forced to use the payphone on the dock to call Jack and Jill. Or maybe Ben was attacked on his boat by the group after Sayid and maybe after Kate too. Or my favorite theory: Ben got some explosives, came back to the church and blew it, the Lamppost and Ms. Hawking to high heaven. After Jack left, Jill drove Ben to a veterinarian's office where she stitched and bandaged him up. :rolleyes: Maybe she had to tuck him in too-megalomaniacs have high libidos.

Later this season we will see a younger Ben promise Richard he will destroy the Lamppost if he ever finds it.

I'm suspicious of Eloise's over-the-top performance as a nice old lady just trying to be helpful and so was Ben. And Des. The Lamppost could just as easily be used by Widmore to find the island again. Or used by whoever found the island that first time to put the bomb on it. Wasn't Jack looking at a top secret army photo of the island taken on 9-23-1954? Or found again by whoever located Dharma on it? Was the Lamppost an army station, a Dharma station or both? Or something older? Who found the island that first time and how long ago was it? I mean how did the army know to look for it to put the bomb on it?

Why would Ben allow the Lamppost to exist with someone he didn't trust as its sole caretaker? Ben was certainly surprised to find that Eloise was Faraday's mother. He didn't know about the Lamppost either. I'm betting he doesn't know about a whole lot more. So Ben injured himself blowing it up so it could no longer be used by anyone.

I'm still suspicious of that Christian, Eloise, Widmore and Faraday connection. Is Locke being used by them? So much information to process! So many connections!!

If Pen is dead, I would lose some faith in the show. I do believe that, no matter how grim the show has come to be, there will be at least ONE happy ending.

Sadly, the show has consistently shown that if you get your happy ending, someone dies. Look at all the people who reunite joyfully but it doesn't last long: Michael and Walt, Danielle and Alex, Sayid and Nadia. Then add in all the women who get offed once they are sure they've found the guy to make them happy: Shannon and Libby. The only happiness we've been allowed thus far is Rose and Bernard; I have some hopes for Sun and Jin, but that's about it. I'm not losing faith in the show if Pen is dead, because it's been the sort of show that would kill Pen from season two on.

Cardie

Pen death would seem to be a major catalyst to the plot. Not only would it be the reason for Desmond to go back to the Island but it also plays in the dynamic of Ben vs Widmore. I know nobody likes losing a character they have grown to like but in the scheme of things it certainly would fit.

In My Opinion, Lost has never been about happy endings and I doubt that the Series finale will be about happy endings either. The Main Character has always been the Island, it's mysteries and the battle for control. All the characters are supporting and therefore expendable. I don't expect them all to be killed but we also have not seen anyone that left the Island that isn't still involved in some way with the Island. The Island is central.

Those look like more than bruises to me- that was a good catch.
Thanks. But if you look at them closely - IF they are indeed bruises - don't they look like they would have been made by a long, blunt object, such as Ben's telescoping baton?

I doubt penny is dead, i can't remember where but i heard that the actress playing penny is very busy with another tv show, which is one of the reasons she hasnt been in it much. i think that its more the case that Widmore has people watching des, and followed him back to the boat, presuming he came on his boat with penny. and thats where ben comes along trying to kill penny... what i didnt understand was why he was soaked...? it didnt look like it was raining. thoughts?

I think that Ben concocted some elaborate ruse in order to get Sayid back to the Island by any means possible... whatever he did, I think he premeditated it by ensuring that Sayid somehow had a passport claiming he was from Guam. He then lured Sayid somewhere into a situation where Sayid ended up beating him within an inch of his life, and then he was apprehended.

When they arrested him for beating Ben, they found that he was a suspect in all of these other murders (assassinations setup by Ben) and that he was being deported and escorted back to Guam since that's where his passport claims he is from. I would think that if they suspected him in several international murders they would detain him where he was, but maybe they would deport him from the U.S. if none of the murders took place on U.S. soil??

We know that Ben has subjected himself to beatings and torture in the past in order to accomplish his objectives, so I have no doubt he put all of this together to ensure Sayid came along, even if it was against his will. And we've been told before that Ben is only looking out for himself...

We also know from previews and statements from Darlton that the lady escorting Sayid, and the man who expressed his condolences to Jack are 2 new characters we are going to see a lot of for the remainder of the season In my mind, they are no doubt agents of Widmore's that are following the breadcrumbs that the O6 and Ben are leaving behind in their efforts to get back to the Island.. things are about to get VERY interesting :D

Could be but the wheels of justice here in the US just don't turn that fast. I'm almost sure that Ben had a hand in Sayid being on the plane but I don't think it was by having him arrested. Now the other person on the flight could easily be a Widmore Plant.

... what i didnt understand was why he was soaked...? it didnt look like it was raining. thoughts?

Ben goes to Des's boat for w/e reasons, ends up getting into a scuffle with whomever, jumps off boat into water to escape.

I think Darlton are pulling a big con on all of you right now- either Benjamin was doing something that had nothing to do with Penny and Desmond whatsoever, or it will turn out that he ended up protecting them from someone/something...

Shocking girlgoescrazy!!! I would never have expected you to think this!!!:rotflmao2:

I certainly hope he dind't kill Penny, but you have to agree, if he did, you would have to change your mind right?;)
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Well I have no doubt that Ben's "promise to an old friend" mission was the killing of Penny. My hope is that after getting into a fight with Des and knocking him out, as he's about to kill Penny, he sees Charlie, and realized he couldn't go through with it...

...the problem is "the Island isn't done with" Des yet, which rather leads me to believe that Ben was successful in killing Penny, prob not seeing Charlie till after he had done the deed, hence why he's so shaken up when he calls Jack. Penny's death is what will drive Des back to the Island, on his boat, recreating how he 1st got to the Island. :frown:

I agree, I think seeing Charlie is what changed his mind. Could Ben have a sliver if decency?

Yeah, I think given that he was at a marina (Des and Penny live on a boat) and that he said in the church that he had to "tie up a loose end and keep a promise" (my mind immediately went to Penny when he said that) I think he certainly tried.

However, looks like Desmond gave him a good beating. Hopefully he did not succeed!

Sorry...I'm not buying it.

Des and Penny live on a boat, yeah...but they were sailing from England. If they sailed that boat from England to L.A. it would have cost a ton and would have taken much longer. More likely, they would have sailed to Miami or New York, and took a $300 plane ride from there to L.A.

Besides, Carlton and Damon threw it in our faces that he was at a Marina....so, we know that something so obvious can't possibly be what's really going on.

Ben did kill Penny (he told Widmore he would kill his daughter and Desmond allowed her and Charlie to come to Los Angeles and that is how Ben got to them), the island is not finished with Desmond and therefore he will return to seek his vengence on Benjamin. Charlie will now be left parentless, adopted and raised by adoptive parents. And Charlie on the Island is Desmond's son afterall.

I don't think Des & Penny took the boat from England to Los Angeles - that would have taken too long. They would have to take a plane. So unless they rented a boat to stay on, they must be in a hotel. And as mean as Ben can be, if he realized Penny had a son, I really don't think he would deprive him of his mother. So maybe he scuffles with Des, realizes they have a son, and backs off?

Sorry...I'm not buying it.

Des and Penny live on a boat, yeah...but they were sailing from England. If they sailed that boat from England to L.A. it would have cost a ton and would have taken much longer. More likely, they would have sailed to Miami or New York, and took a $300 plane ride from there to L.A.

Besides, Carlton and Damon threw it in our faces that he was at a Marina....so, we know that something so obvious can't possibly be what's really going on.

It's true that they wouldn't have sailed from England to L.A. I highly doubt they even sailed from England at all. I'm sure they just flew. Des needed to get L.A. too fast for their to be sailing involved. It could be that Des and Penny rented a boat to live on while in L.A. but I'm not sure.

Okay, I just watched the episode again and all of the 'wounds' on Ben's face with the exception of one on his forehead and the one on his chin are on one side of his face - I think the left side. This leads me to think more along the lines of an explosion or some such thing where he could have turned his head. I think a beating would be more likely all over the face, unless his attacker only had the use of one arm.... Thoughts?

Okay, I just watched the episode again and all of the 'wounds' on Ben's face with the exception of one on his forehead and the one on his chin are on one side of his face - I think the left side. This leads me to think more along the lines of an explosion or some such thing where he could have turned his head. I think a beating would be more likely all over the face, unless his attacker only had the use of one arm.... Thoughts?

Possible...he couldve been thrown by a blast and landed on his arm and face etc etc. But he is on that Pier again so either he took a beating and ended up in the water or he had another submarine and its just been blown up so hes hitched a ride back on the plane.

Maybe somebody SPLASHED him. LOL

Maybe somebody SPLASHED him. LOL

By god i think youve got it. Sayid comes zooming in on a Jetski as ben is walking towards the phonebooth, splashes Ben then yells "Psyche!!" as he jets off laughing his bum off.

My theory is that Ben somehow manipulated Sayid to confront him and organised his capture while being roughed up and through his contacts got him deported on the flight where ALL of the Oceanic 6 HAD to be on.

Those look like more than bruises to me- that was a good catch. But I think whoever had Kate's address and whoever attacked Sayid was waiting for Kate at her house. Kate got into a fight and killed them trying to save Aaron. Now she knows it is either go back to the island or go back to jail for murder. So Kate puts Aaron with someone unconnected to her (so he can't be found) and then goes to Jack's place. That explains her sunglasses and furtive looks.

Killing Penny would get Desmond back to the island, if only for revenge on Ben. But perhaps when Ben sees Penny has a kid he can't kill a mother. If Ben could get Desmond and Penny back to the island, that would make her dead to Widmore. Then he couldn't find either.

The Lampost is a danger to the island. Widmore could use it to find the island again like he probably used it to get back with Dharma the first time. Since Ben didn't seem to have any affection for Eloise (or trust -twice he asked Jack what she said to him when they were alone) I wonder if he didn't blow up the church and the Lampost with it. The injuries on Ben's face are primarily on one side as if that side was facing toward something that blew up.

I don't know that whole speech of Ben's too obviously points to Penny. Ben is rarely obvious. I think if this ep had followed episode 7 as the writers had planned, it would have answered questions instead of posing more.

Excellent post!

Not that it matters that much but I'm curious as to why 316 aired as epi 6 if it was planned for epi 8. Can you eleborate on that please?

Umm, sorry if someone already posted this, but I only remember 1 promise that Ben has made to "an old friend", and that was when he promised Widmore that he would "kill his daughter"... Penny... who we know was also in LA with Desmond. Who gave Ben his bruises? Did Des catch him trying to hurt Penny? Did Penny defend herself? Did Charles have people waiting to protect Penny? And the biggest question, did Ben succeed and is Penny still alive?

I, for one, think that EVERYONE who left the island will end up back there. So, what would be larger motivation for Des to go back than to get Ben, who has killed his Penny?

I think you could be right to. I think that Ben did try and kill Penny but they didnt show the scene. To bad.

Okay, I just watched the episode again and all of the 'wounds' on Ben's face with the exception of one on his forehead and the one on his chin are on one side of his face - I think the left side. This leads me to think more along the lines of an explosion or some such thing where he could have turned his head. I think a beating would be more likely all over the face, unless his attacker only had the use of one arm.... Thoughts?

I only watched it once. I did initially notice that the damage was mostly on one side of his face. My thought was that his face had been dragged along the ground.

This is Ben we're talking about; he probably did everything that has been suggested here (except kill Penny) and even more stuff that hasn't been thought of before arriving late to flight 316.

I just don't think he killed Penny. Tptb love Ben very much and I don't think they would have him do something so unforgiveable in the viewers' eyes. They're too in love with the ambiguity of Ben. And they would lose viewers over something like this.

This is Ben we're talking about; he probably did everything that has been suggested here (except kill Penny) and even more stuff that hasn't been thought of before arriving late to flight 316.

I just don't think he killed Penny. Tptb love Ben very much and I don't think they would have him do something so unforgiveable in the viewers' eyes. They're too in love with the ambiguity of Ben. And they would lose viewers over something like this.

Nice narrative point. So IF he DID kill penny, we probably won't find out til much later on (flashback), because a lot of viewers are now sympathetic with Ben. On the other hand, maybe he ONLY kidnapped their son, little charlie, and desmond will go to the island, after Ben, to find little charlie (while little charlie is just some place in L.A., with one of Ben's minions).

I don't think that Ben would deprive little Charlie of his mother. His motivation and bitterness has always seemed to be the loss of his own mother.

I think you could be right to. I think that Ben did try and kill Penny but they didnt show the scene. To bad.

I'm pretty sure that whatever DID happen, will be shown in an upcoming epi.

I think Ben seemed pretty content on the plane, that leads me to think he suceeded in killing Penny. Just like Sawyer had to kill Sawyer, I think Ben has to kill Penny to stay true to his character, he wasn't bothered in the slightest that people would be killed on the freighter and he didn't give a toss about the other people on flight 316. I can't see him worrying about Des or little Charlies feelings.

I suppose you have to consider what the motoivations are.
I maintain that Ben knows aspects of the Future, as do several other of the "Pupet Master" characters, Jacob/Christian, Hawkin, Faraday - it's in his journal in pieces he cant undertsand until it happens, Abaddon - already shown him take advantage of such knowledge with young Locke.
If Ben "knows" that Penny must die to cause Desmond to return to the island, then he will cold bloodedly do it. HOWEVER... Des is the unique one re time travel and can alter events others cant... SO... Ben may have gone to kill Penny, got caught by Desmond, beaten black and blue, big fight, Ben gets a good slapping but eventually gets gun on Des, knowing that he cant shoot Des, a stand off is reached and Ben tries to explain. Des then gets flashbacks of Peny dying in his arms realises that by going back of his own accord and leaving her forever, he can save Penny in a way that he could never save Charlie...
Ben agrees and they go their seperate ways. Or something...

Good ideas...
I don't think that Widmore is going to let his daughter go unprotected after leaving Penny/Des hiding spot. He hasnt seen her in 3 years. He thinks/knows she will be with Desmond in LA. He goes to see her before she goes back into hiding from Ben.

Ben knows Penny/Charlie are on a boat in the marina.(where Ben made call to Jack from).
Ben approaches the boat and looks through window to see if Penny is there. He sees Penny teaching little Charlie how to read. He hesitates (possible childhood flashback for Ben). While he is not paying full attention Charles W. hits him with deck chair/something, ( Bens face and shoulder look like he took a shot from a door?) knocking Ben into the water. Penny hears something, comes up with Charlie and sees her father.

Or Ben got rolled for his cell phone. He is in LA after all:rolleyes:

No they took their boat. Money's no object, they could have gone through the panama canal, and really, we don't know at what day Des went to England, how much time it was before Locke died and Ben started to rally the troops.

With Widmore not knowing where his daughter is, I believe Penny and Des have stayed out of airports and any means of travel that can be tracked. They have nothing but time. Faraday says Des is the only one who can help them, that those on the island are in trouble, to find his mother. If Desmond was in such a rush to deliver that message, he could have flown from any airport to England to do it, yet they sailed there.

I think they arrived in Los Angeles by boat, because we'll see Desmond (and maybe Penny and young Charlie as well) arrive back on the island in the same way Desmond did initially; by boat.

No they took their boat. Money's no object, they could have gone through the panama canal, and really, we don't know at what day Des went to England, how much time it was before Locke died and Ben started to rally the troops.

With Widmore not knowing where his daughter is, I believe Penny and Des have stayed out of airports and any means of travel that can be tracked. They have nothing but time. Faraday says Des is the only one who can help them, that those on the island are in trouble, to find his mother. If Desmond was in such a rush to deliver that message, he could have flown from any airport to England to do it, yet they sailed there.

I think they arrived in Los Angeles by boat, because we'll see Desmond (and maybe Penny and young Charlie as well) arrive back on the island in the same way Desmond did initially; by boat.

Except it could have been that the easiest way to get to England was by boat since they were already on one. I think once Desmond discovered that Faraday's mom wasn't at Oxford that he would then want to hurry to L.A. and be done with it. Why drag it out by weeks or months by sailing to L.A. from London?

I wouldn't be surprised if Desmond arrives back on the Island by boat but it doesn't have to be the one he had in England. If it is, it could be that Penny was following behind in the boat while Des flew to L.A.

I don't see Des leaving Penny and Charlie behind especially after seeing Widmore. They have done all they can to keep away from him. As was already pointed out, we have no idea of the time frame. It could have been months from the time Des got the information from Widmore to the time he arrived in LA. I think they took the boat to LA.

I think, if anything, Ben only kidnapped Penny/Charlie. He would use the two as leverage to get Desmond to search for the island.

But it wouldn't surprise me if Widmore sent goons to help protect Penny from Ben, considering Desmond got the L.A. address of the Lamppost from Widmore himself...

Someone was cranking on Ben pretty badly. Could Widmore have had a shadow watch on Penny, Charlie and Des? Des did go see him, Widmore knew where Des was going, could Wid have found Penny that way; and knowing Ben's in L.A. (where else did Sun get her pics of Ben and Jack and the van?); did Widmore knowingly use his own daughter as bait in drawing out Ben?

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if he did. It would explain the serious condition of Ben's face and his apparent dislocated shoulder. Sure, Desmond could have put a thumping on him, but wouldn't have Desmond just killed him? I don't think Ben would fight away from a situation unless the odds were severely against him. Going up a bunch of Widmore goons may have caused him to or prevented him from, tying up his loose end.

I don't see Ben being fought off by just Desmond. I don't see Desmond just letting Ben turn tail and run. I think Ben ran into Widmore's people before he could kill Penny and Pen and Des and Charlie took off, knowing 1) that Widmore had found them and 2) that Ben was there to hurt them. To me, it's the only scenerio keeps Penny alive so she can end up on the island with Desmond (and fall to some tragedy there).

Her saying that she's going with him (Desmond) doesn't just strike me as a throwaway line. Or a line that's singular for the episode. If the island isn't done with Des and that's where he ends up back too, than she's going to end up back there too. That can't happen if Ben kills her. At least not at this stage.

If Ben did kill Penny, has anyone seen the religious parallels of that action?

Considering that Locke has died, and it could be seen in a symbolic way that he has died for the island, then the parallel to him could be how Jesus died. Which is followed by Easter and the resurrection, because it appears that Locke is "resurrected" according to the previews for next week.. The death of Penny could be a nod at the "Tenth and Final Plague" - killing of the firstborn. (2.11: Death of Firstborn) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt#Death_of_Firstborn_.28Ex._11:1_-_12:36.29_.D7.9E.D6.B7.D7.9B.D6.B7.D6.BC.D7.AA_.D7 .91.D6.B0.D6.BC.D7.9B.D7.95.D6.B9.D7.A8.D7.95.D6.B 9.D7.AA)..

So if we are in an Easter phase of the story, then it could follow that Passover is near.
Does one pray, light a candle in the church, deliver a short sermon on St. Thomas, and then go out for a quick revenge kill? Religious zealot suicide bombers pray fervently before their mission and are quite convinced that theirs is the only way. I see Ben in this light. He is convinced he is a "good guy" and in spite of his despicable actions (the beatings, the purge) he sees himself as good.. I believe in the end the audience will see things that way as well..

Well I have no doubt that Ben's "promise to an old friend" mission was the killing of Penny. My hope is that after getting into a fight with Des and knocking him out, as he's about to kill Penny, he sees Charlie, and realized he couldn't go through with it...

...the problem is "the Island isn't done with" Des yet, which rather leads me to believe that Ben was successful in killing Penny, prob not seeing Charlie till after he had done the deed, hence why he's so shaken up when he calls Jack. Penny's death is what will drive Des back to the Island, on his boat, recreating how he 1st got to the Island. :frown:I agree with this scenario... I don't like it, but it fits imho.

I think if Ben were to kill Penny, it hasn't happened yet. That if it does, it happens on the island.

Ben's pretty ticked off at having to watch his daughter executed right in front of him and he told Widmore point blank that he will be killing his daughter. He so tried to kill Penny! Whether or not he was successful remains to be seen but I believe he headed to the docks with only one thing on his agenda, kill her before he goes to the airport. He can be very cold blooded when he needs to be (Shoot Jin!) and I don't think anything his heart would be swayed by the boy. What better way to hurt Widmore even more than to kill his daughter and grandchild? Hopefully the boy makes it but I don't think in this instance Ben would feel guilty, Widmore's the one that changed the rules not Ben.

Correct.

Penny, and possibly Charlie, are dead by Ben's hand. Desmond put up a fight, but Ben left him alive to get word back to Widmore. Widmore once again helps Desmond get back to the island [extreme speculation] and Widmore himself comes with him, but this time Ben has his chess pieces prepared, hence the showdown between the two big-baddies of the show in S6. [end extreme speculation]

However, since Desmond has proven time and again that he is outside Time's laws, he is able to save Penny from somewhere in the past, and they do have their happy ending.

...and they wind up being Adam and Eve from season 1

Ben's pretty ticked off at having to watch his daughter executed right in front of him and he told Widmore point blank that he will be killing his daughter. He so tried to kill Penny! Whether or not he was successful remains to be seen but I believe he headed to the docks with only one thing on his agenda, kill her before he goes to the airport. He can be very cold blooded when he needs to be (Shoot Jin!) and I don't think anything his heart would be swayed by the boy. What better way to hurt Widmore even more than to kill his daughter and grandchild? Hopefully the boy makes it but I don't think in this instance Ben would feel guilty, Widmore's the one that changed the rules not Ben.
100% agree.

Ben has been out of sorts with the island since our losties landed on it. It was the same day he found he had a tumor and locke magically walked so Its safe to say the islands quite upset with him but he knows he still has roles to play so is in a way like Widmore untouchable.

But yes I think hes sealed his final fate by the hands of Desmond by killing Penny and like the end of season one and first episodes of S2 we wont see the final outcome of this arc until seasons end when Des arrives back on the island to exact his revenge.

Des can only exact any revenge on Ben if the island is done with Ben. Well he could give him another beating but that would be it. Considering that we were told that it Locke who was supposed to turn the wheel, the island might not let Des kill Ben ( if he's killed Penny ).

So if we are in an Easter phase of the story, then it could follow that Passover is near.


Passover precedes Easter. Jesus arrived in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday in order to celebrate the Passover feast (seder.) This feast is the Last Supper. Following Passover's beginning--the holiday lasts for eight days--Jesus was betrayed, crucified, and resurrected two days later on Easter Sunday.

Cardie

When Ben left to do his errand did he confront Desmond and Penny? Is that why he is so banged up.

perhaps, I also wondered if Ben went to see Sayid and that's how he got banged up. Sayid looked at him and jumped when he walked onto the plane. Sayid also told Jack and Ben that he never wanted to see them again because it would be unpleasant for all of them. If Ben knew he could get Sayid arrested which would have him on that plane then that would have been a good way to get Sayid back to the island.

The more I think about it, the more I think Ben has killed Penny. She is English and they do seem to love killing off the English characters, b******s;)

I think they're equal opportunity killers.

I'm just wondering how long we have to wait until we find out what exactly Ben was up to.

Passover precedes Easter. Jesus arrived in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday in order to celebrate the Passover feast (seder.) This feast is the Last Supper. Following Passover's beginning--the holiday lasts for eight days--Jesus was betrayed, crucified, and resurrected two days later on Easter Sunday.

CardieSorry Cardie, I didn't mean to say that was the literal linear timeline of Easter/Passover. I meant in terms of Lost the two events appear to be near each other, as in they seem to be hitting upon themes of Easter and Passover imho. Not necessarily in the literal order..

Des and Penny live on a boat, yeah...but they were sailing from England. If they sailed that boat from England to L.A. it would have cost a ton and would have taken much longer. More likely, they would have sailed to Miami or New York, and took a $300 plane ride from there to L.A.

I don't think Des & Penny took the boat from England to Los Angeles - that would have taken too long. They would have to take a plane. So unless they rented a boat to stay on, they must be in a hotel. And as mean as Ben can be, if he realized Penny had a son, I really don't think he would deprive him of his mother. So maybe he scuffles with Des, realizes they have a son, and backs off?

It's true that they wouldn't have sailed from England to L.A. I highly doubt they even sailed from England at all. I'm sure they just flew. Des needed to get L.A. too fast for their to be sailing involved. It could be that Des and Penny rented a boat to live on while in L.A. but I'm not sure.

I can't see any reason why Desmond would be in a rush to get to LA. The message was given to him three years ago after all, even if he only recently remembered it. I don't think he had any reason to think there was any associated time pressure. Plus, their whole reason for being on a boat is to hide, and stay anonymous. I think there's no way they're going to take an airliner, or even charter a flight -- they're going to want to continue their life at sea. And we have no specific time of reference for when Desmond was at Oxford. It could easily have been a month earlier.

My theory is that Ben somehow manipulated Sayid to confront him and organised his capture while being roughed up and through his contacts got him deported on the flight where ALL of the Oceanic 6 HAD to be on.

perhaps, I also wondered if Ben went to see Sayid and that's how he got banged up. Sayid looked at him and jumped when he walked onto the plane. Sayid also told Jack and Ben that he never wanted to see them again because it would be unpleasant for all of them. If Ben knew he could get Sayid arrested which would have him on that plane then that would have been a good way to get Sayid back to the island.

Exactly, Sayid seems the most likely to have delivered that kind of beat-down, and Ben seems the most likely to have been able to get Sayid apprehended, probably for a murder in another country that Sayid carried out while working for Ben. The only thing that doesn't fit is the "promise to an old friend" part. But I think it's a red herring. I don't think he's still being motivated by vengeance. And it only make sense that Ben used his remaining time to get Sayid and Hurley on the plane.

Ben's pretty ticked off at having to watch his daughter executed right in front of him and he told Widmore point blank that he will be killing his daughter.The perfect reason why Ben would not kill Penny, but take her alive. This way he can get true revenge on Widmore by reversing the situation.

And it would give Desmond a reason to search for the island. Though I doubt Ben brought Penny in his carry-on...

Exactly, Sayid seems the most likely to have delivered that kind of beat-down, and Ben seems the most likely to have been able to get Sayid apprehended, probably for a murder in another country that Sayid carried out while working for Ben. The only thing that doesn't fit is the "promise to an old friend" part.I thought Ben's eyes widened in surprise when he initially saw Sayid on the plane. I first assumed it was because Sayid was the one who beat him, but now I think it was because Ben had nothing to do with Sayid getting on the plane.

It doesn't seem to be Ben that got Hurley on the plane though, Ben asked him who told him to be on the plane and Hurley didn't answer. Sayid seemed pretty surprised to see Ben board the plane, if he had Sayid arrested for a beat down an hour or two before, why would they be sending him to Guam so soon and would Sayid be that shocked to see Ben? I'm thinking they must have picked Sayid up the night before at the very least and for killing one of the folks Ben told him to. Maybe it's obvious that he went to kill Penny but I can't see it being anything else at the moment. Though I can't see Charles sending Des to a town where he must know Ben is. He could have thought she wouldn't go with Des but he couldn't know that for certain.

By the way, do the cuts over Ben's right eye look like an H to anyone else? Everytime I see it I think of Rimmer from Red Dwarf.
100%
The perfect reason why Ben would not kill Penny, but take her alive. This way he can get true revenge on Widmore by reversing the situation.

Okay, that's a good point. I like that, it keeps Penny and possibly wee Charlie alive for a bit longer.

Well, it certainly is possible...he threatened he would.........that is if Penny is his only daughter

Just had to note that if Ben went after Penny.... SHE, herself, would have wiped the floor with him. She, like most Lost females, is not exactly a wilting violet.

About to get my feet wet for the first time here, so bear with me:

I'm wondering if Sayid had fake documents suggesting him to be a citizen of Guam. Perhaps Ben instigated him in to beating him severly enough to have Sayid deported back to Guam by a US Marshall. I know Guam is a US territory, but I supposse they would deport people for infractions when they are not considered normal United States citizens.

I'm probably wrong on this, and I have not researched it enough. But that's my theory, just throwing it out there.

Ben had his fair share of passports, Sayid could as well.

About to get my feet wet for the first time here, so bear with me:

I'm wondering if Sayid had fake documents suggesting him to be a citizen of Guam. Perhaps Ben instigated him in to beating him severly enough to have Sayid deported back to Guam by a US Marshall. I know Guam is a US territory, but I supposse they would deport people for infractions when they are not considered normal United States citizens.

I'm probably wrong on this, and I have not researched it enough. But that's my theory, just throwing it out there.

Welcome, gyrene. There's another thread focusing on how Sayid ended up on the plane. :smile:

Well, it certainly is possible...he threatened he would.........that is if Penny is his only daughter

well that opens up a whole new can of worms. But i can believe it

No, but Ben says her name when he threatens Widmore. Paraphrase: "Your daughter... Penelope, is it?"

ok then there goes that theory lol...i forget he mentioned her by name

I'm in the camp that doesn't really want to see Ben kill Penny, but thinks that's probably what happens. But will she stay dead? That I'm not so sure about, and that possibility is what would allow Ben's action to be seen as ambiguous rather than fully evil. I can just see the scene where Desmond confronts Ben after he's killed Penny, and Ben telling Desmond (presumably from a safe distance!) that if he goes back to the island he can still save her...

Penny's death will give Desmond 3 reasons to go back to the island: (1) revenge; (2) the possibility of time traveling again to change history and avert her death; and (3) the possibility -- if he brings her body -- that the island will somehow regenerate her, like it may (?) do with Locke. Zombie Season awaits!

My thoughts were that the marshall was present taking him to Guam where (when he was working for Ben as an assassin) he is wanted for someone else's murder.

Totally hypothetical, but you never know.

Having lived on Guam for 3 years I have 2 things...

First, there's only a handful of flights that go in and out of there each day. It's a tiny tiny airport.

Second, a lot of flights over to Asia go thru Guam as a layover so it could well be it's only a stopping point. I know a US Marshall would seem like a good candidate for non stop flights but 2 things with that. 1 it's a really really long flight and 2, Guam is in the middle of no where and (if i remember right) all of ~21x13 miles so there's not a lot of area for him to go hide...and there's a large contingent of US military forces, both Navy and Airforce so they could have been on their way to Guam and catching a military transport since Sayid was Iraqi military at one point.

I think if Desmond stopped him, he would have KILLED him. I think a more likely scenario is Desmond tried to stop him, and failed. Ben either killed Desmond too, or left him unconscious.
If the island isn't finished with Desmond yet (as Mrs. Hawking suggests) then Ben wouldn't be able to kill him.

I'm pretty sure Ben killed Penny, then made chili out of her and tricked Desmond into eating it.

Then Desmond kicked his butt.

I'm pretty sure Ben killed Penny, then made chili out of her and tricked Desmond into eating it.

"Aww, the tears of unfathomable sadness..." Haha, great ep.

I don't think Ben had to kill Penny to motivate Des into going back to the island and killing him. It should be enough if he tried - if Ben never gives up, the only way to keep Penny safe is killing Ben, and to do that, Des would have to go back to the island.

It would simply make more sense to me if he did that for protection than for revenge reasons. *shrugs*

thought about this too.. but if he went to the marina to do this, then when did Desmond and Penny leave on the boat for the states from England, that is a long trip, with a passage through the canal.
I assumed that Desmond flew in with them. just a thought

After what we saw tonight from Ben (TLADOJB), I wouldn't be surprised if he did indeed kill Penny. :frown: