(Sorry if this has already been posted)

The island seems to be behaving like a quantum mechanical particle. The position of a particle cannot be determined 100%, only it's probability of appearing at a certain location. Much like the island which Ms. Hawking described. If we know the initial state of a particle, then we are able to predict the probability of it's later position. We can try and control the outcome of a particle by recreating the initial potential it goes through (initial circumstances). That's why the O6 have to try their best to recreate the scenario during the first crash, in hopes of obtaining a higher probability of landing on the island.

When I was watching this episode, and Ms. Hawking started talking about locating the island and describing its behavior, every point agreed with quantum mechanics principles. I haven't re-watched the episode yet, so I can't remember everything she said, but trust me, the similarity is undeniable. Also, I only took an intro quantum course last year, so please excuse/correct any mistakes I've made, it's been a year!

Edit: Here's a theory: due to the laws of quantum mechanics (specifically Heiseinberg's Uncertainty Principle), the more accurately you know the position of a particle, the less accurately you will know it's momentum. The very act of measuring a particle's position will change it's momentum. So, I'm thinking that the time flashes on the island occurs every time someone tries to determine the location of he island.

Please ignore the rest if you're bored already with my rambling, it gets worse.
Another idea suggested by quantum mechanics states is that, the very act of measuring the particle will cause the wavefunction to collapse. Which basically means that that the particle had an indeterminate position and the second you try and measure it, it will "create" a position, and will always remain there for subsequent measurements. Relating this the Lost, that's why it's so hard to people to detect the island's location?? Because their measurements are "creating" a location for the island, when in actually, the island is elsewhere. (I don't remember the name of that theory, so if there are any physicists out there, please please please correct me if I'm wrong about anything)

Also, the island has been referred to many times as possessing strong electromagnetic forces. EM forces can change the behavior/location of a wavefunction (particle i.e. the island). Perhaps whenever this energy is released on the island, it skips through time. In order for time travel to occur, the island must be moving VERY fast. By the theory of relativity, time dilation occurs for anything accelerating, so time slows down. I'm guessing that the island is moving near the speed of light, so time slows down for them. That's why three years has passed off the island, when only a day has passed on the island.

I noticed a slight shift in the 'language of LOST' from quantum physics last year to quantum mechanics this year. Hmmm.....

:undecide:

It's the same deal-io. Sorry about the confusion.

Very nice breakdown.

This really brings some science into the magic...great post!

I never listened in Science :(

Very Interesting! Great post! Now, what does this mean... the island is a sub atomic particle?

I dare say a quantum physicist would have trouble explaining in lehmans terms but ill try and build an analogy of what quantum physics seems to apply to the show so anyone can get a clear picture.

Ok...

Newton and Shakespeare comment the World is like a stage and we are all actors making our entrances and exits upon it. But Einstein comes along and says yes but the stage is curved so when we walk along it we look like drunken sailors being pulled this way and that (gravity).

The wild card thrown in at this point is "exotic matter" which essentially creates trap doors on this stage where people can fall through the stage.

What does it take to make this happen? Well the exotic matter doesnt do it by itself even though it has remarkable properties. You would literally need the gravity of a black hole to fold the stage like folding a piece of paper and create the hole but the exotic matter would stabilize the hole so it wouldnt just collapse upon itself.

The actual amounts of energy we are describing here would be something like the mass of Jupiter, so yeah it would be a World devouring event should the exotic matter stabilizing a black hole suddenly not be there anymore.

Where the writers could take this kind of science depends on their imagination. The island is stated to have the largest electro magnetic force or pockets in the world. If it self creates wormholes allowing its constant moving through space a meteor for example containing exotic matter crashing into it would have unpredictable effects. But essentially the exotic matter would allow the Casimir effect or ability to harness that energy because it acts to stabilize it.

Thats about as lehman as I can get.

Interesting. Good posts by the original poster and Ash_1200's layman's explanation of some of the possible consequences.

The actual amounts of energy we are describing here would be something like the mass of Jupiter, so yeah it would be a World devouring event should the exotic matter stabilizing a black hole suddenly not be there anymore.
I'm still not convinced that it is possible to stabilize a black hole, even with a huge amount of energy or exotic matter. I'd love to have someone elaborate on this more, or to point to where someone else has done so. But no spoiler material, please.
100%
The island seems to be behaving like a quantum mechanical particle. The position of a particle cannot be determined 100%, only it's probability of appearing at a certain location. Much like the island which Ms. Hawking described. If we know the initial state of a particle, then we are able to predict the probability of it's later position.
I totally see your comparison between a quantum particle and the Island's behavior. But one caveat I'd like to insert here - which is that we shouldn't try to stretch this analogy too far, since the Island is, of course, not a quantum particle. However, I do like this analogy - it is useful in understanding the way the Island is behaving. Thanks, SimZ! Good thread!

Another idea suggested by quantum mechanics states is that, the very act of measuring the particle will cause the wavefunction to collapse. Which basically means that that the particle had an indeterminate position and the second you try and measure it, it will "create" a position, and will always remain there for subsequent measurements. Relating this the Lost, that's why it's so hard to people to detect the island's location?? Because their measurements are "creating" a location for the island, when in actually, the island is elsewhere. (I don't remember the name of that theory, so if there are any physicists out there, please please please correct me if I'm wrong about anything)

This is an observation principle, can't remember the exact name, but it's well stated here. Basically, every particle exists in every possible state (including nonexistence) until such point as it is observed. The very act of observing it forces it to "choose" a state, and like you said, it'll continue to exist that way.

Perhaps the "bloody snowglobe" the island is in is something like Shroedinger's box. Only when the box is opened and someone outside observes the island does the island choose a location or velocity (but not both).

But one hole in your theory. According to Heisenberg, the more accurately we know the location of a particle (or island), the less accurately can we know its velocity. So if Mrs. Hawking knew when the island would appear, the less accurately could she know where it would appear. If she knew where it would appear, the less accurately could she know when it would appear.

So how could she know it would be in location X, at time X, with certainty?

I'm still not convinced that it is possible to stabilize a black hole, even with a huge amount of energy or exotic matter. I'd love to have someone elaborate on this more, or to point to where someone else has done so. But no spoiler material, please.


HERE (http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0809/0809.0907v1.pdf)is a nice (and short) paper by Matt Visser giving simple examples of traversable wormholes with minimal amounts of exotic matter. Someone else (forget who, might have been the same guy) wrote a paper recently proving that a traversable wormhole could be created using an arbitrarily small amount of exotic matter.

He further shows that paper, clearing up another objection someone had about the realism of wormhole travel: "Indeed, it is possible to obtain wormholes and geodesics such that the traveller feels no forces, tidal or otherwise, during the trip."

HERE (http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/0809/0809.0907v1.pdf)is a nice (and short) paper by Matt Visser giving simple examples of traversable wormholes with minimal amounts of exotic matter.
Thanks, Pythagoras, for the article. It'll take a while, but I plan on reading the whole thing in depth. :)

I really appreciate all the work has gone into this thread. I usually have a tough time with the science based part of the show, while the faith based stuff comes a little easier, probably due to the fact that faith based stuff doesn't have to be fully explained.

This thread does bring up an interesting question though, for me at least. How much do you think the circumstances which the Oceanic Six had to travel back to the island has to do with your theories? Namely the fact that they had to recreate it almost identically? I know a lot of theories have attributed this need to a more faith based explanation, but it seems like the quantum physics can be used to explain it a little? I'm not sure, but that's what I thought about when I was reading this.

This thread does bring up an interesting question though, for me at least. How much do you think the circumstances which the Oceanic Six had to travel back to the island has to do with your theories? Namely the fact that they had to recreate it almost identically? I know a lot of theories have attributed this need to a more faith based explanation, but it seems like the quantum physics can be used to explain it a little? I'm not sure, but that's what I thought about when I was reading this.

The problem with the science/faith distinction when it comes to quantum mechanics is that the science end is pretty faith-based. Quantum physicists all the time are discovering more and more evidence that the Universe behaves, at the subatomic level at least, much more like a mind than a thing.

Which is mindboggling, if you'll pardon the mild pun.

Read up on the ideas of philosopher Berkeley. He'll be on Wiki. I have to run to class now so don't have the time to get into it, but he had a lot of the same ideas. And I'm thinking more and more about him the more I watch the show...

I really appreciate all the work has gone into this thread. I usually have a tough time with the science based part of the show, while the faith based stuff comes a little easier, probably due to the fact that faith based stuff doesn't have to be fully explained.

This thread does bring up an interesting question though, for me at least. How much do you think the circumstances which the Oceanic Six had to travel back to the island has to do with your theories? Namely the fact that they had to recreate it almost identically? I know a lot of theories have attributed this need to a more faith based explanation, but it seems like the quantum physics can be used to explain it a little? I'm not sure, but that's what I thought about when I was reading this.

For the essence of telling this story, I gather the writers, as the show has always stated will ground the mythology of it around the basic principles of science as we know it and then stretch that to whatever means necessary to complete this story. We know this is true since the characters are time traveling on a disappearing island ;)

So how can we view the nature of the 06 being told to reproduce as much as possible the events that lead them to the island in the first place to having anything to do with the story?

Since one can use Lost based science along with ones imagination you might assume they needed to recreate those events because simply getting to the island wasnt exactly what they needed to do. In fact what they needed to do was to get back to the island in a specific time, namely the same time as the lefties.

Had they just boarded the plane with no discernable quality that made them recognisable they may have simply landed on the island in the present time, explaining why so many assume the abandoned lost camp, Ajira water bottle and boats may have belonged to the new survivors of 316 in the present, or for Sawyer and Co at the time their future, 3 years from the day the 06 left the island. Like Daniels 305 degree heading to go back and forth from the island, maybe recreating past events was similar in that it provided the correct heading to ensure they arrived where they wouldve been had they not left in the first place.

However we try to make sense of it we have to make sure we dont forget the story thats trying to be told and use the tools that are given us. Lost based science is part modern day fact and theory and large part imagination.

However we try to make sense of it we have to make sure we dont forget the story thats trying to be told and use the tools that are given us. Lost based science is part modern day fact and theory and large part imagination.

This is a good point. A lot of people hate the fact that everything seemed to fall into place in this episode and it was contrived. It really mirrored the whole faith based leap that Jack had to take. We as viewers had to take that leap of faith that the producers are going to show us why Sayid and Hurley were there and other coincidences. They really haven't astronomically let us down yet, so we should trust them. This really doesn't have to do with your quote, but it reinforces the ends usually justifies the means on Lost and Lost makes sure that we don't get too short sighted in each episodes minor issues.

This is a good point. A lot of people hate the fact that everything seemed to fall into place in this episode and it was contrived. It really mirrored the whole faith based leap that Jack had to take. We as viewers had to take that leap of faith that the producers are going to show us why Sayid and Hurley were there and other coincidences. They really haven't astronomically let us down yet, so we should trust them. This really doesn't have to do with your quote, but it reinforces the ends usually justifies the means on Lost and Lost makes sure that we don't get too short sighted in each episodes minor issues.

Very well said ;)

The Quantum World: Quantum Physics for Everyone by Kenneth Ford is a very good book for feeble laymen like myself.

I was thinking the same thing, she actually says they gave up trying to figure out where it was and started trying to figure out where it was going to be. In Stephen Hawkings (no relation) "The Universe in a Nutshell" he says,
"In quantum mechanics a particle does not have a well-defined position or velocity, but its state can be represented by what is called a wave function. A wave function is a number at each point of space that gives the probability that the particle is to be found at that position." (p. 106)

I'm no expert but I think this may be part of what is on the chalk board in this scene. Notice the wave graphs to the right . http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage-1468-107.html

I was thinking the same thing, she actually says they gave up trying to figure out where it was and started trying to figure out where it was going to be. In Stephen Hawkings (no relation) "The Universe in a Nutshell" he says,
"In quantum mechanics a particle does not have a well-defined position or velocity, but its state can be represented by what is called a wave function. A wave function is a number at each point of space that gives the probability that the particle is to be found at that position." (p. 106)

Yes, this is true. But Heisenberg strictly dictates that the more we know about position, the less we can know about velocity. Wavefunctions are useless when we start actually attempting to observe the real location or velocity of a particle. So wavefunction, so far as I understand it, would be a pointless exercise if we're actually trying to figure out the location of a quantum particle.

Does anyone here know anything about entaglement theory? Because I'm starting to think that we might be able to know more about the island if we were measuring the properties of something entagled with the island, rather than the island itself.

Thoughts?

Yes, this is true. But Heisenberg strictly dictates that the more we know about position, the less we can know about velocity. Wavefunctions are useless when we start actually attempting to observe the real location or velocity of a particle. So wavefunction, so far as I understand it, would be a pointless exercise if we're actually trying to figure out the location of a quantum particle.

Does anyone here know anything about entaglement theory? Because I'm starting to think that we might be able to know more about the island if we were measuring the properties of something entagled with the island, rather than the island itself.

Thoughts?

I was just about to come here and post the same thing about position/momentum.

As for entanglement... all of the pockets of electromagnetism, such as the one under the Swan and the Lamp Post could all be the same particles in different places, like an enormous waveform, with the swan being the highest probable location for resting particles and therefore also the strongest, or their could be pair particle relationships, two entangled particles that always behave exactly the same but are in different locations. Entanglement imo is the only explanation for the pockets of electromagnetism Hawking described around the world that are all attached over potentially infinite distances that are related and can be used to predict each others state.

I just wanted to post that I really enjoy reading this thread, since this isn't my area of expertise at all.

(I wonder if "entanglement" theories have any connection to the theories that all of the people drawn to the island are actually either from the island or have ancestors who are from the island?)

I just wanted to post that I really enjoy reading this thread, since this isn't my area of expertise at all.

(I wonder if "entanglement" theories have any connection to the theories that all of the people drawn to the island are actually either from the island or have ancestors who are from the island?)

All particles from one source... sounds like a great observation :)

You should read "I search of Schrodinger's cat" by John Gribbin - it's an awesome book, covers the history of Quantum Mechanics and it's implications for our understanding of reality. Easy to read too, my flat mate had it, it's the book that got me over the 'wtf?' hurdle, even though i still can't comprehend the why's at all, i accept them :biggrin:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_Cat

Yes, this is true. But Heisenberg strictly dictates that the more we know about position, the less we can know about velocity. Wavefunctions are useless when we start actually attempting to observe the real location or velocity of a particle. So wavefunction, so far as I understand it, would be a pointless exercise if we're actually trying to figure out the location of a quantum particle.

Does anyone here know anything about entaglement theory? Because I'm starting to think that we might be able to know more about the island if we were measuring the properties of something entagled with the island, rather than the island itself.

Thoughts?

As I understand it the wave function works on the theory that neither the location nor velocity can be narrowly defined, but the wave function can be. It still satisfies the uncertainty principle , which you mentioned, because for example the more peaked the wave function the greater the certainty of the position and the lower the certainty of the velocity and vice versa. I don't pretend to understand this fully but it seems to fit with what Eloise Hawking was saying , that they can only predict the probability that the island will appear in a given location for a certain amount of time. Rather than predict the exact time or location they have a range or window of possibility. As Stephen Hawking states: "We now realize that the wave function is all that can be well defined. We cannot even suppose that the particle has a position and velocity that are know to God but are hidden from us ...Even God is bound by the uncertainty principle and cannot know the position and velocity; He can only know the wave function" (Universe in a Nutshell, p. 107)

Wow! I'm pleasantly surprised that so many people has responded to this thread! I though I was delving into uncharted territory, so I posted (almost) the same post in the "Theories" section. With a little addition:

"Also, the island has been referred to many times as possessing strong electromagnetic forces. EM forces can change the behavior/location of a wavefunction (particle i.e. the island). Perhaps whenever this energy is released on the island, it skips through time. In order for time travel to occur, the island must be moving VERY fast. By the theory of relativity, time dilation occurs for anything accelerating, so time slows down. I'm guessing that the island is moving near the speed of light, so time slows down for them. That's why three years has passed off the island, when only a day has passed on the island."

Now, I just pulled out my quantum textbook and looked up what the "indeterminate position" of a particle theory is called, and it's referred to as "the orthodox position" if anyone is interested.

I just briefly read through the post and noticed that entanglement as been suggested as a theory. I haven't really studied the math of it, but I know the concept. However, in the case of Lost, I think the tunneling phenomenon of quantum mechanics is more relevant (in which I have done the math). Tunneling is basically when a particle doesn't have enough energy to pass through a barrier, yet, there still is a possibility that it will. Imagine a baby throwing a ping pong ball at a brick wall. Classically, the ping pong ball will NEVER go through the wall because there just isn't enough energy. But quantum mechanics says that there is a possibility that it will end up on the other side! Maybe that's how they appeared on the island!

Ok, I have more to say but I really must be going to bed. I only skimmed through the thread because I'm so tired, but I'm seeing a lot of really interesting discussions!