Ben's Motivation [Archive] - { Flicks N Shows | Fringe Division | Red Panda Resources

enigma420

02-25-2009, 11:26 PM

^^ and Ben knew it as well as Richard did. Ben knew HE had to kill Locke as opposed to letting him hang himself.

My bet is that Ben knew perfectly well that Locke would wind up with him back on the Island ALIVE! Why else would he try so hard to make sure that Locke was the guy in the coffin on 315?

You know what...I've been really worried about Ben, and I think you and Beema may have hit it. If Ben wasn't there, Locke would have most certainly killed himself, because he had the moment right. Since Ben was observing everything, I would suggest he was usurping JACK'S position. Jack was the only one who showed up to the funeral, and then later he broke in...for what purpose? To show us it was Locke? I think Jack was going to bust him out of there and shephard (pun un-intended) his body back to the island. Ben recognized all this and pulled a Desmond. Locke was going to die somehow, so is it karmically wrong if Ben stops him long enough to get the information Jack would have eventually stumbled upon by talking him out of killing himself, and then offing him right after? If Ben hadn't restaged the hanging, would it have had the same impact on Jack if Locke had slipped in the bathtub, or got hit crossing the street?

Ben's karma is definitely in question here, but I think he knew Locke was dead and was just ensuring his ride back to the island. And maybe, since Christian told Locke HE was supposed to turn the wheel, Ben was never supposed to have left, and this is the way it had to go down. I'm starting to feel a bit less stress about putting Ben back in the ambivalent category rather than the pure evil.

At the same time, he could have been blocking Widmore's ride as well. Widmore was responsible for him, shows up to find a dead Locke, brings Jack and crew to the island. Either way, he was DEFINITELY saving his seat.

lostorfound

02-25-2009, 11:34 PM

I don't think Ben planned to kill John at all.

If there is only one truthful line Ben has ever spoke, it was when he told Locke back on the Island "I always have a plan."

99cbr

02-25-2009, 11:35 PM

yes - i agree. ben came to kill locke. we prepared to do it. he had cleaning equipment for crying out loud. he had to stop locke because he had to be the one to do it. remember - richard said locke had to die - not that he would have to do it himself.

I had the same thought, maybe he couldn't or wasn't supposed to kill himself. Though about the cleaning supplies, a man like Ben is always prepared. I did not see him enter the room with them, and you better believe he wouldn't leave them in the hallway. I am guessing he always has those kinds of things in the trunk of the car.

goddessblue

02-25-2009, 11:42 PM

If there is only one truthful line Ben has ever spoke, it was when he told Locke back on the Island "I always have a plan.":laugh: touche!

I could have said "I don't think Ben planned to kill John at all. But his backup plan was, of
course, killing him." ;)

enigma420

02-25-2009, 11:42 PM

Alex.

He want's retribution for Alex.

LOLWUT? How is killing Locke going to give him retribution for Alex lol. Penny is his retribution for Alex, since he apparently can't kill the person ultimately responsible, Widmore, and he already killed the person directly responsible, Keamy.

ANTIDEAD

02-25-2009, 11:44 PM

He was only helping Locke to get the info out of him.

beema

02-25-2009, 11:45 PM

what is this, the 5th thread on this exact subject?

goddessblue

02-25-2009, 11:48 PM

I think Ben definitely started at the mention of Jin. He genuinely seemed surprised to find out he was alive. But it was the mention of Eloise Hawkings that made him immediately spring into action. I think there's a Widmore-Hawkings tie and Ben knows about it, for sure. That's what made him do it.

He11FiRe

02-25-2009, 11:57 PM

The way I took it was that he needed to get information from Locke. He needed to know what he had gotten from Widmore specifically, and the info about the Lefties was just icing on the cake. Then he gets to use the tidbit about Jin to convince Sun to go back.

What's more interesting to me is that it seems Ms. Hawking is playing for both teams.

mdfostachild

02-25-2009, 11:59 PM

goddessblue

02-26-2009, 12:06 AM

I think that Ben knew that Locke had to die but did not want Locke to commit suicide. In Ben's manipulating way, he wanted to extract as much information out of Locke before killing Locke. Thus, Ben actually help Locke by killing him, thus enabling Locke to avoid the mortal sin of committing suicide. I think that if John committed suicide it might have compromised him from being resurrected on the Island.

Also, I found it interesting that Ben fullfilled Richard Alpert's instruction that Locke needed to die. Whereas, Widmore was surprised that Richard instructed Locke that he would need to die and vowed to protect him. Does that mean that Ben and Richard are on the same page and working together?

I think that Ben is going to ultimately turn out to be a "good guy".No matter what, you know Ben is going to spin it.

"How can you be angry with me, John? I only helped you do what you knew you were destined to do. And I took that burden off of your shoulders. For god's sake John! You're here! You're back! You're on the island. Now, you have work to do. You can take that knife and kill me or fulfill your destiny."

;)

ame en peine

02-26-2009, 12:11 AM

"How can you be angry with me, John? I only helped you do what you knew you were destined to do. And I took that burden off of your shoulders. For god's sake John! You're here! You're back! You're on the island. Now, you have work to do. You can take that knife and kill me or fulfill your destiny."

;)Moonlighting as a "Lost" writer, goddessblue? I think you nailed it..

OTsteve

02-26-2009, 12:13 AM

I'd say he had a pretty good reason to believe that it wasn't in his best interest to allow Locke and Hawking to chat.

At least that's the sort of thing the writers hope we are thinking.

goddessblue

02-26-2009, 12:20 AM

Moonlighting as a "Lost" writer, goddessblue? I think you nailed it..
:laugh: why thank you.

Cardielost

02-26-2009, 12:35 AM

Ben could have gone out and come back with cleaning supplies. We don't know how much time passes after he strangles Locke and then repositions the body. Having the cleaning supplies doesn't prove anything one way of the other about his initial intentions.

Cardie

Guinevere

02-26-2009, 12:37 AM

Once again, Ben didn't think through his purpose. Instead of reacting immediately to kill Locke, he should have gotten more information about what happened after Ben left. Instead, he hear Eloise's name, freaks out because he believes this is the Island's way of "picking a side" and kills Locke. I really don't think his plan A was to kill Locke that night. But, like has been said, it was probably his plan B since he did either have cleaning supplies or just took Locke's when he was done.

woland

02-26-2009, 12:43 AM

All I know is that Ben is Wile E. Coyote to Locke's Road Runner, no matter what Ben's plan is to kill him, Locke will bounce back.

eyris

02-26-2009, 12:45 AM

It's mind-boggling, that's for sure. There was that whole "you killed my daughter!" aura about Ben when he sprang on John, like he had a psychotic break. The mention of Eloise Hawking seemed to trigger him.

toddintexas

02-26-2009, 01:02 AM

Either way, Ben needed to get information from Locke. I don't necessarily think Ben went to see Locke fully intending to kill him, but it was certainly an option. Ben knew Locke was being driven around by Abaddon, who was one of Widmore's men. That certainly couldn't have sat well with Ben. If Locke hadn't told him about Hawking, Ben might have tried to get some more information about Widmore. Once he heard about Hawking, Ben had his answer.

Eleri

02-26-2009, 01:23 AM

I'm betting that John was told by Richard that he needed to die, because Alpert knew that Ben kills John. I'm thinking that Ben knew he needed to kill John, too.

Ben keeps John from suiciding, because Ben needs the info about how to get back *before* John dies. That way he can use that info, and all his resources, to get the 06 back, something that the Island/Jacob/Alpert knows that John can't do on his own.

Heroic Poser

02-26-2009, 01:24 AM

I wonder why Locke would even be able to kill himself when Michael couldn't?

He wouldn't, but I'm betting he didn't know that.
Ben did, which is why he lured Locke down, got some info, then killed him.
Ben has always wanted Locke dead for being chosen and he never forgot that.

I think he planned it all along.
The Island wouldn't let locke die but murder is a different story.

Bellarain

02-26-2009, 01:25 AM

If there is only one truthful line Ben has ever spoke, it was when he told Locke back on the Island "I always have a plan."

Exactly. Ben has been lying since day one. And lets not forget what Eloise told Jack in the room when Jack asks her if Ben is lying. Something to the effect of most likely or its Ben, of course he is lying. LOL

cosmicsync

02-26-2009, 01:46 AM

I wonder why Locke would even be able to kill himself when Michael couldn't?

Locke had to die, so the 06 could return to the island. He was Christian's surrogate.

Kaïsa

02-26-2009, 02:03 AM

sk8rpro

02-26-2009, 02:45 AM

lostbylost

02-26-2009, 03:13 AM

Options:

1) Ben killed Locke after he mentioned Hawking which made Ben realise that Locke was on Widmore's side. But why then did Ben go to Hawking himself?

2) Ben killed Locke when he had the information that he needed (Jin being alive to convince Sun, Hawking knowing how to get back.). He doesn't really think that Locke is special.

3) Ben killed Locke after acquiring the information he needed, because Locke is special but had to be dead when they returned to the Island (proxy for Christian, or some other reason). He knew that John would be resurrected. After all, Ben tried to keep John's body safe at Jill's and told her that it was of utmost importance. On the other hand, he did say "I'll miss you, John", as if he thought Locke was dead (for good).

After the crash Locke was resurrected, Ben was wounded. "The Island" still seems to favour John and punish Ben, this time maybe because of what Ben did to John.

Very nicely done. I would add a couple other posible scenario's though.

4) Ben had also been in contact with Elosie, who could careless if she is dealing with Ben or with Widmore. He didn't know that she was involved with Widmore until John told him. Ben being Ben, realized that he didn't have to be the proxy for Christian that he could be Locke's proxy instead and killed John insuring himself a way back to the Island without him having to die.

5) Ben knew that John was important enough that he couldn't die having lost his faith. He had to restore John's faith first. Than after restoring his faith killed him so that he could carry out the mission. He also realized that John couldn't go back on his promise not to tell Sun about Jin and that it would be the only reason Sun would go back.

Legion303

02-26-2009, 06:34 AM

Regarding the cleaning supplies, Locke was staying in a hotel--which tend to have things like that available for the cleaning crews.

-steve

bawstngrl

02-26-2009, 08:20 AM

I thought Ben changed his mind when he heard about Jin - IMO, the musical theme & his body language change there - and he seemed only mildly attentive to the Hawking line.

But what would it be about JIN being alive that would bother Ben????
It definitely would help get Sun to return? Does Jin have a role/function we do not know about yet???
100%
My gut reaction after seeing the scene was that Ben reacted to Eloise's name.
Is it possible that Ben did not know WHERE she was and when John said he had to go see Eloise in Los Angeles this was the missing bit of info that Ben needed for his plans.

remember Widmore gave John Eloise's address and stated she was a "very private person"....

gano

02-26-2009, 08:36 AM

JHM

02-26-2009, 08:51 AM

I think Ben planned to use Locke and the O6 to get back to the island and regain his position of power. When Locke revealed more than he should have, Ben realized he didn't need Locke alive, and took him out. I don't think Ben wants Locke alive... I mean he tried to shoot him once before.

This is the way I saw it. And you never really know with Lost but my take was that Ben finds out about eloise and realizes she's the one that can get HIM back to the island. So he kills Locke, says goodbye probably not expecting to see him alive again. It wasn't until Ben goes to Hawking and realizes that everyone needs to go back INCLUDING Locke. I don't think Ben expected to have to take locke back until then which kicks off the chain of events with Jack and Ben. Otherwise I can't explain why Ben would say goodbye and i'll miss you

rekindled phoenix

02-26-2009, 08:52 AM

What I don't understand is: Why kill Locke at all if that was his original plan? Why not just let Locke do it himself, and then he could have gotten Sun's ring and such. Ben's smart enough to put two and two together I think. Besides Eloise Hawking, Ben didn't really get all that much information from John that I think he would have been eventually been able to acquire himself.

It just doesn't make sense. If Ben had a vengeful motive to this, then why go through all the trouble of protecting John's body and ensuring his return to the island, when he obviously knew John was going to be ressurrected when he didn't answer Jack's question about whether he was dead or not.

I admit I have a bias in that I'm a Ben fan, and am one of those hoping and suspecting that Ben is somehow trying to do some good, though for him of course, it wouldn't be in the conventional sense. And this certainly seemed to put him on the "bad" side again. But I cannot help but hope and wonder if it's just another red herring.

I mean tonight's episode, brought about the whole conundrum: Who to trust? Ben or Widmore? Whose on the "light" or "dark" side, Ben or Widmore? Both claim to be protecting the 06 & Locke but who really is?

The only reason I can think of as to why Ben murdered Locke (that puts him in the "good" light) is that he was protecting him from Widmore or Hawking, or that somehow suicide was not the way he was supposed to "die." I don't know, anyone, including Ben supporters have any more thoughts on this?

P.S. Remember Widmore said he would do everything in his power to prevent Locke from dying, which was what he was supposed to do. Perhaps Ben was just ensuring his death, and thus, return and ressurection to the island.

molly1977

02-26-2009, 10:33 AM

Michael feels so much guilt over AL and Libby he tried to kill himself, only to be found and told by Tom that he can't kill himseld cause the island is not done with him yet.

Jack tried to throw himself off a bridge, but is interrupted by a car accident and his need to fix things is the only thing stronger than his self-hatred and guilt.

Locke's attempt is interrupted by Ben...would he have been able to commit suicide? Everybody (including myself) is down on Ben for strangling Locke. What if that is what had to happen?

The Ajira crash needed to be as close to the 815 crash as possible in order for things to work. Locke's death would ensure that Jack would be guilted into and manipulated by Ben into getting everyone together to go back. Ben knows everything, he had to have known that Locke would be resurrected once they returned to the island. Perhaps Ben is not looking out for himself, but creating a situation that works for everyone because Locke would have never been successful at killing himself.

sorbo1980

02-26-2009, 10:33 AM

...a lot of people may say that Ben killed Locke because of something to do with Hawking, but I think there's another explaination that's sort of related to the "Locke as Christ figure" thread. It also ties into who may be good/evil.

First...Widmore tells Locke he has to go back to the Island, but that he will not let him die. Well, the Island/Christian tells Locke he has to die in order to save the Island. So, Widmore, in a sense, is going against the Island and trying to force his will unto the situation. So, Ben kills Locke, because it's what the island needs him to do...

Second...Locke can't commit suicide (by some weird Island law/rule). If you go with the whole element that Locke is the representative of unquestioning Faith (sounds like Christ), then he must abide by some of the Christian (not Jack's dad) teachings. Suicide is a sin. Your soul becomes impure and you are not allowed into heaven if you kill yourself. But, he can be murdered and still be "clean."

What does it mean? Ben has to kill Locke. Locke has to die, but can't kill himself. So, I'm going with Ben as a "good" guy at the moment with shades of grey.

molly1977

02-26-2009, 10:40 AM

Haha, we posted the exact same theory at the exact same time. What are the odds, Literally the same minute.

I am going to ask a mod to merge these two identical threads.

maxaholic

02-26-2009, 10:40 AM

(4.8.15.16.23.42)

02-26-2009, 10:50 AM

cleofusmcd3

02-26-2009, 10:51 AM

I was thinking about that last night, how could Locke die since no one else could.

I don't think Ben was doing anyone but himself a favor by killing Locke. They made it pretty clear Ben was disturbed by Locke's knowledge of Mrs. Hawking. Ben could of easily talked John into killing himself, he wouldn't have worked to save Locke if there wasn't something in it for him.

I think Ben is gonna be really suprised when he sees a living John Locke, he wouldn't have said "I'm really going to miss you" otherwise.

molly1977

02-26-2009, 11:04 AM

I believe, as do many characters on the show, that Locke is special. I think he is somewhat like Desmond in that he is not bound by rules like everyone else. Locke COULD have killed himself, but his loss of faith may affect his ability to return to the Island. Ben knew Locke could kill himself, which is why he stopped him.

That is a take on it that I had not even considered. Interesting. It still leads to the question is Ben evil, if the only way to get Locke on the island again was to have him in a body bag on the plane.

I was thinking about that last night, how could Locke die since no one else could.

I don't think Ben was doing anyone but himself a favor by killing Locke. They made it pretty clear Ben was disturbed by Locke's knowledge of Mrs. Hawking. Ben could of easily talked John into killing himself, he wouldn't have worked to save Locke if there wasn't something in it for him.

I think Ben is gonna be really suprised when he sees a living John Locke, he wouldn't have said "I'm really going to miss you" otherwise.

I don't know, Ben knows that the dead come bakc on the island. His own mother did. I tihnk that Ben has to believe that Locke would come back in some form on the island if he was used as Christian's proxy.

Laurieg

02-26-2009, 11:05 AM

The whole I'm going to miss you made me think Ben thought Locke was going to stay dead.
I can't wait until Jack and the rest of the O6 see him. That is going to be one shocker.

freighter hater

02-26-2009, 11:08 AM

Laurieg

02-26-2009, 11:26 AM

Ben killed Locke because, the way Locke has been portrayed, he rightly assumed that Locke would screw that up too and he just wanted to make sure the job got done correctly by someone more competent

Ben...sooo misunderstood
I agree, I think Ben feels he should be in Lockes place.Almost like the new guy at work getting your promotion.

Meggerhun

02-26-2009, 11:27 AM

But Ben's mother did not come back in the way that Locke did. I don't think Ben is counting on him being so tangible. The other people that have died do not interact with their surroundings much. No touching of walls, people, objects other than what they were originally seen with, that I have noticed, anyway. I think Ben will be thrown for a loop when he sees the way Locke is alive.

fadepattern

02-26-2009, 11:37 AM

How many times does Ben have to either try to kill or actually kill Locke before stops trusting him?

freighter hater

02-26-2009, 11:40 AM

How many times does Ben have to either try to kill or actually kill Locke before stops trusting him?

Ben killed Locke because Locke is like Kenny from South Park and it was the end of the episode time for someone to kill Locke

Let me stop being stupid but I did have a distinct feeling of deja vu last night

This is the second time Ben killed or tried to kill Locke, it is becoming almost just what Ben does

And I'm sorry but after someone shoots me and leaves me to die in a ditch....let's just say there would be trust issues

Neonpolarbear

02-26-2009, 12:09 PM

driveshaft76

02-26-2009, 12:25 PM

lundi

02-26-2009, 12:28 PM

There is a strong religious theme to this story.. very Catholic/Christian. According to many religions, people who take there own life cannot be resurrected, reincarnated, or go to heaven. They are damned to eternal limbo.. or even hell.
I think that when Ben saw Locke attempting suicide, he panicked.. because his dying that way would ruin the purpose of his death.. to resurrect.
Ben does know that Locke is not dead in the total sense.. as 1) he has made sure that his body was kept in tact, 2) didn't answer Jake when asked.. "he is dead, isn't he?", and 3) he also knows that he will be using Locke's body as a ticket through the portal.
He does say, "I will miss you John.", just after strangling him.. but it may not be because John will not resurrect, it may be because Ben himself will die when they get back to the island. Maybe this is Ben's time. (wow, I hope not!... what have I said!) :eek::eek::eek: :cry:

pascalephoto

02-26-2009, 12:32 PM

This was a part of the episode that confused me. Ben seemed fine with Locke up until the point he mentioned Hawking, then he went nutso. I'll have to watch it again next week to see if there was something I missed.

I don't get that part. Does he kill John because John is not supposed to meet Hawking? Will Hawking tell John something that will compromise Ben in some way? Was Ben going to kill him all along and just happened to do it after John mentioned Hawking?

JeffinBoca

02-26-2009, 12:36 PM

Ben seemed extremely upset when he was killing Locke, not angry but sad. I thought he was crying.

Syd

02-26-2009, 12:46 PM

Laurieg

02-26-2009, 01:03 PM

Looking at it from a different perspective, I highly doubt ABC would have let the writers have a character commit suicide. So they went for the next best option and had Ben kill and then frame John, which basically resulted in the same consequences as if Locke had actually done the deed himself.

I don't agree with that. I have seen more then one cop show on the networks where someone puts a gun to their head and pulls the trigger. Usually right when they are about to be hauled off to jail.

sullen entropy

02-26-2009, 01:10 PM

to me, it seemed out of character for ben to kill locke the way he did. if he just wanted information from him (about jin, hawking, how to get back to the island, ...), why didn't he just convince locke to kill himself after he found out everything he wanted to know. how hard would have been to say - i lied to you about jack - you didn't get through to him - you are a failure, and you're not special. seems more like ben to use his words than to actually get his hands dirty, if he has the choice. and it's pretty obvious that even after everything that's happened between them, locke is going to listen to what ben has to say.

imo, there has to be something else going on here - that ben knows that for whatever reason, locke can't commit suicide.

gideon

02-26-2009, 01:12 PM

I think Ben knew he had to kill Locke to keep him from returning the same way Christian did because he drank himself to death. Maybe Ben had another idea how to get them back to the island that didn't involve Hawking but when he learned of Johns knowledge of her he instantly knew what had to happen. Or he could have known all along he was going to kill Locke but That was the last bit of info he needed and as we know the window for reentry is short. If Locke would have killed himself would he have become more like Christian on the island as in more of a ghost only able of limited contact?

I'm of the thought that Ben is ultimately on the "good" side and wants John to be everything he is suppose to be. But, he will miss his old relationship to Locke being the mentor and finally having someone else wanting to believe as much as he himself has and does but also challenging and demanding the "truths" to all the ins and outs of the islands mysteries. only time will tell but thats the feeling I got from Lockes death scene.

ugh now I'm pondering trinity themes in the show. *shakes fist*

damn you lost you make my brain run in circles!!!

Lea_Lost

02-26-2009, 01:14 PM

Ben went to serious lengths to stop Locke from comitting suicide. I do believe he went there to stop him do that.

Then, when he succeeds, he kills him himself. I gotta tell ya, this was the most frustrating thing of the whole episode. I still try to wrap my brain around it... But.

1. Richard said he had to die.
2. Christian said he had to die willingly, sacrifice himself.
3. Abaddon asked the question, was it his choice or his path?
Oddly, Ben settled the matter, he took out matters from his hands and made it his path rather than his choice. To me it feels like he cheated John out of the sacrifice he was ready to do for the island. It actually touched me when to Christian's words his reaction was "I am ready"... and he was ready to literally do everything! I thought, wow, he is really committed! Now Ben took some of that away.

Ben reacted to the name of Eloise Hawking. Why? Because Locke could only know that name from the island itself? Again, it was proof that he was going to succeed? Maybe it was just a doh moment, the answer to how HE was going back to the island... Because if Locke had been alive and successfully gathering everybody, finding Mrs.Hawking... Ben would have lost every power and importance, and eventually he would have missed his ride back.

annieone

02-26-2009, 01:38 PM

IMO, it has to do with Hawking. When Locke mentioned Hawking, Ben's whole demeanour changed. He seemed like something hit him hard. That's when he strangled Locke.
Maybe Hawking is a secret noone should know, or Locke was not supposed, for some reason, to meet Ms Hawking. I don't think that there is anything in Locke's "death" than pure practicality.
Maybe Ben wants Hawking for himself, and is also, in a way, manipulating her.

Pelegrin_1

02-26-2009, 01:45 PM

I think it's simple... Ben is diabolical, and he needs to feel that he is important. If Hawking knew that John was there, alivem then Ben would've been dispensible, unimportant. John was still a threat to Ben, to his position.

There is another possibility, and that's that just maybe Ben was worried about John somehow bringing Widmore and Hawking together, and again it would be Ben who would likely be the odd man out. I still don't think that Widmore knows about Hawking's position and the "technology" that she has, or else he would've tried to use it or gain access to it long ago.

UCsimplyme

02-26-2009, 01:49 PM

My first thoughts when I saw that scene.

Congrats Ben. You just can’t let Jon do what needs to be done for the island himself.

IMHO, Ben is so desperate to be the leader of the others, that he will do anything to deny Jon the opportunity to prove himself.

Just like the DW, Ben selfishly took what Jon had to do and did it himself.

I guess it was fresh on my mind because I just got onto my son for the same thing.

...
I see this “childish behavior” in Ben. Fighting for Daddy’s attention and having to be 1st.

I think you may be onto something more than you realize. I similarly thought of children vieing for their parents attention. The direction I went is a biblical story detailed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob

The story of Esau and Jacob. Here are a couple comments from the article that stood out:

The two children that are fighting in her womb will continue to fight all their lives. The prophecy, which Rebekah does not share with her husband, continues that these two nations will never gain power simultaneously; when one falls, the other will rise, and vice versa. In addition, the elder will serve the younger.
The boys display very different natures as they mature. "Esau became a hunter, a man of the field, but Jacob was a simple man, a dweller in tents" (Gen. 25:27). Moreover, the attitudes of their parents toward them also differ: "Isaac loved Esau because game was in his mouth, but Rebekah loved Jacob"
In his old age, when Isaac becomes blind, he decides to bestow his blessing on his firstborn son, Esau. He sends Esau out to the fields to trap and cook a piece of savory game for him, so that he can eat it and bless Esau before he dies....Thus disguised, Jacob enters his father's room. Surprised that Esau is back so soon, Isaac asks how it could be that the hunt went so quickly. When Jacob responds, "Because the Lord your God arranged it for me," Isaac's suspicions are aroused, since Esau never uses the name of God (Rashi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi) on Gen. 27:21). Isaac demands that Jacob come close so he can feel him, but the goatskins feel just like Esau's hairy skin. Confused, Isaac exclaims, "The voice is the voice of Jacob, but the hands are the hands of Esau!" (27:22). Still trying to get at the truth, Isaac asks him point-blank, "You are my son, Esau?" and Jacob answers simply, "I am" (meaning, "I am me," not, "I am Esau"). Isaac proceeds to eat the food and drink the wine that Jacob gives him, and then he blesses him with the dew of the heavens, the fatness of the earth, and rulership over many nations as well as his own brother.
We have two sons and the younger uses deceit to steal the birthright of the older. Sound familar? Picking up these themes raises some very interesting questions, the primary one being "How does this story correspond to the characters that we currently have?"

Ben seems to correspond to Jacob, the one who lives in tents, the deciever. John likewise, seems to correspond to Esau. Where does Widmore fit in? The conflict between Widmore/Ben seems to be closer to the Esau/Jacob relationship yet we see Ben acting out the "theft of birthright" with John. It is very possible that Ben stole Widmore's birthright and is again trying to do it to John.

If Jacob (of Lost) is modeled after the biblical Jacob, then we have some interesting developments. Is Jacob (of Lost) Ben from the future? Eventually, in the biblical story, Jacob submits to Esau and Esau forgives and embraces Jacob. Is this the future of Ben and John?

I think this relationship and story will be very closely tied to the plot and character developments as the story advances.

MetaSteve

02-26-2009, 01:54 PM

I agree, I think Ben feels he should be in Lockes place.Almost like the new guy at work getting your promotion.

Then why didn't Ben make Locke "move" the island?

Laurieg

02-26-2009, 02:04 PM

Then why didn't Ben make Locke "move" the island?

Right now I think Ben moved the island and got off it so he could bring the O6 back himself and gain favor with Jacob or who ever is in charge.

Ben is trying to get back in his leader position. A position that the island seems to be giving to Locke.

I think that is why he killed Locke. What he isn't getting is that neither act did him any good.

Ben got off the island and the island sent Locke off it any way.
Ben kills Locke so he can bring everyone back, but I have a feeling we will find out that they went back because of Locke.

Biochickiee

02-26-2009, 02:08 PM

quizzical

02-26-2009, 02:18 PM

I have three theories.

Ben talked Locke down with the intent to use Locke until Ben found a way back to the island. Locke just happened to spill all the information Ben needed in two minutes, so Ben went ahead and killed him to get him out of the way.
Ben knows that Locke won't be permitted back if he suicides.
Ben knows that Locke has to take Christian's place, and that the circumstances have to be duplicated as much as possible. Perhaps Christian was actually murdered? Ha! Further fun speculation - Christian was murdered by Ben! Maybe that explains Christian's disdain for Ben?

Joeisuzu

02-26-2009, 02:22 PM

I don't think Ben was meant to go back to the island. He needed to worm his way into the returning group in order to find out where to be and when. Perhaps once before he used the hot air balloon. I think it is interesting that Ben did not vanish and was instead one of the injured. That tells me that the island did not desire him to return. I also wonder if Widmore had people on the plane as well. Since he was following the O6 it seems inevitable that he did.

With regard to Ben, it is very much the same issue as Battlestar Galactica mythos. Does Ben kill Locke because he is carrying out the island's wishes or is it simply unavoidable fate driving Ben to complete the act of suicide he disrupted. I get the impression that Ben is fighting the island's wishes. He, for example, attempted to kill Locke previously, but found the island would not let him. That implies that a) fate is unavoidable and b) Ben attempts to rebel against what he thinks is fate, but is foiled because it is an unstoppable force. That makes me think that Ben is most likely "bad". Widmore may be as well as they are both attempting to disrupt fate (Widmore with a ship of explosives), but do they realize they can't? Widmore said that Locke's presence on the island would determine the winner of the war, but fate would seemingly have determined the outcome. Perhaps Locke's presence is more of a signal as to which side will win, rather than a changeable outcome.

VTjim

02-26-2009, 02:22 PM

How many times does Ben have to either try to kill or actually kill Locke before stops trusting him?

I think this is the last time:biggrin:

There is a strong religious theme to this story.. very Catholic/Christian. According to many religions, people who take there own life cannot be resurrected, reincarnated, or go to heaven. They are damned to eternal limbo.. or even hell.
I think that when Ben saw Locke attempting suicide, he panicked.. because his dying that way would ruin the purpose of his death.. to resurrect.
Ben does know that Locke is not dead in the total sense.. as 1) he has made sure that his body was kept in tact, 2) didn't answer Jake when asked.. "he is dead, isn't he?", and 3) he also knows that he will be using Locke's body as a ticket through the portal.
He does say, "I will miss you John.", just after strangling him.. but it may not be because John will not resurrect, it may be because Ben himself will die when they get back to the island. Maybe this is Ben's time. (wow, I hope not!... what have I said!) :eek::eek::eek: :cry:

I think you may be on to something with this as the last time we saw Ben he was laying on a bed comatose and non-responsive.
Maybe Ben said goodby to John because he knew when he got back to the Island he would end up being a vessel or reincarnated as/for someone else.

ElginMiller

02-26-2009, 02:28 PM

i think Ben wanted to get information out of Locke and get on his good side. It just so happened that he spilled the beans about where to go to get back to the island (talk to Mrs. Hawking), Ben appeared not to know this information, once he had this and the info that Jin was alive (his leverage to get Sun back to the island after knowing that she would never trust him) that was all the info he needed to get Locke out of the way, get all the 06 on his side to come back and himself be transported back.

This is what I'm thinking too. Ben needed more information from Locke, so he stopped him from committing suicide long enough to get the information he needed. He is using Locke as a proxy for speaking to Jacob. Jacob tells Locke what to do, Locke tells Ben, and Ben prevents Locke from doing it and does it himself. He is trying to steal Locke's destiny.

I bet we will get a scene in a later episode where Ben goes to see Mrs. Hawking after killing Locke, and Mrs. Hawking tells him he has to bring Locke's body back to the island, and Ben's eyes get all buggy and he gets a look like "uh-oh, didn't see that coming."

MrMax

02-26-2009, 02:55 PM

Here's a weird thought - Ben died (or was willing to die) in the plane crash. That's why he said goodbye to Locke like that. It's like he's fulfilling the Thomas the Apostle story. He has been trying to block Locke from becoming the new leader. But hearing that Locke is aware of Hawking, he finally concedes he can't stop the inevitable. He makes a quick decision, kills Locke because he shouldn't or wouldn't be able to do it himself, takes care of the body/coffin, then rounds up the 5 survivors. He gets on the plane and becomes like the 6th member of the O6. He finally believed and sacrificed himself so Locke can live.

katesnemesis

02-26-2009, 03:04 PM

Ben killed Locke because, the way Locke has been portrayed, he rightly assumed that Locke would screw that up too and he just wanted to make sure the job got done correctly by someone more competent

Ben...sooo misunderstood

If you mean screwing up the suicide I had that some thought last night. The "I'll miss you John" did confuse me somewhat. Maybe Ben didn't make it back. Just a thought
100%
I have another thought as to why Ben killed Locke right after he said he needed to see Hawkings. Unless I'm mistaken didn't Widmore tell Locke to go see Hawkings? If that is so maybe Ben realized that Locke was in cahoots with Widmore and that just wouldn't do considering how much Ben hates Widmore.

cdnlostfreak

02-26-2009, 03:25 PM

this is what im thinking too..widmore knows the old broad as eloise hawking...when locke said her name ,ben knew locke had been talking to widmore and was p ed off.....dosent ben know her as faraday

MetaSteve

02-26-2009, 03:34 PM

Since this ep is a actual flashback, after watching, I went back and watched some of "this place is death", especially the end, when Ben is explaining to every what he thinks went on with Locke and why they have to go back -- he is definitely planning something evil and I don't even think he had the idea of bringing the O6 to haeking and finding out how to get back until he talked to Locke in the hotel room... Then when he heard the plan and heard hawking, he put it together and killed Locke. Then, later, Hawking told him he had to bring them ALL back, even Locke... he was like... Well, guess I have to go get Locke, etc...

And he is using all of this to get back himself and do evil things...

wanders01

02-26-2009, 03:57 PM

Christian told Locke he would have to die. I thought that Ben killed Locke because that would be the only way he COULD go back ala Christian being there after he was dead. I figured maybe because of turning the FDW being dead is the only way the island would let you come back. Maybe Christian turn the wheel at some point that we haven't seen yet. Ben did look pretty bad laying there.

nynaeve

02-26-2009, 04:04 PM

ElginMiller

02-26-2009, 04:23 PM

I have another thought as to why Ben killed Locke right after he said he needed to see Hawkings. Unless I'm mistaken didn't Widmore tell Locke to go see Hawkings? If that is so maybe Ben realized that Locke was in cahoots with Widmore and that just wouldn't do considering how much Ben hates Widmore.

Christian told Locke to go see Eloise Hawking after he had rounded everyone up. Widmore never mentioned her to Locke.

I'm surprised Locke didn't look her up anyway, despite his lack of success at rallying the O6, just to see what she had to say before he offed himself.

simone5p

02-26-2009, 04:25 PM

i thought the same thing, but ben said to locke as he was leaving "i'm really going to miss you, john. i really am". i think that he came to his hotel knowing that he thought he had to die and that he'd commit suicide. showed up to "stop him" only to get as much information out of him as possible. when he mentioned hawking, he knew that that would be the key to get back to the island. so he didn't need locke anymore. he killed him to eliminate him from the leadership role not knowing that he would be reincarnated on the island. if he knew that he would "come back" then he wouldn't tell him goodbye.

That Ben knew that Locke might kill himself is questionable... I think Ben basically broke into Locke's place on the premise something was wrong (in order to kill John as he had unsuccessfully done so when he killed Abaddon) and his break-in just happened to match up with Locke attempting to hang himself... convenient for Ben since his breaking-in now looks like an act of heroics to Locke...

I totally agree Ben's goal was to retrieve information... and he got the Eloise Hawking bit and the "don't bring back Sun"-Jin is alive bit... in order to get back to the Island himself. I don't think he believes Locke will be reincarnated on the Island. For all we know, he has never seen Christian Shephard nor has he any idea that Christian Shephard is/had been dead.

Widmore could have gone back to the Island on the freighter, but he didn't. I think that's good evidence that he was telling the truth about deposing Ben so that Locke could have his turn to be the leader of the Others... but whether that's a good thing remains to be seen... if you remember Locke as leader of New Otherton, he was pretty harsh... he ran a self-described "dictatorship," and banished Kate.

It's confusing because all of them- even at times Ben- seem to believe that they are doing the "right" thing... the greater good thing.

Carmelita

02-26-2009, 04:42 PM

"i think Ben wanted to get information out of Locke and get on his good side. It just so happened that he spilled the beans about where to go to get back to the island (talk to Mrs. Hawking), Ben appeared not to know this information, once he had this and the info that Jin was alive (his leverage to get Sun back to the island after knowing that she would never trust him) that was all the info he needed to get Locke out of the way, get all the 06 on his side to come back and himself be transported back."

Yes I totally agree with you because remember season 3 when Ben told Sawyer that he had put a pace maker in his heart and if his heart rate went up he'd die?? they did that for a reason, what if Ben actually did it to Christian????? They say Christian died of a heart attack due to too much alcohol after watching last night's episode I thought that Ben definately had something to do with Christian's death... Also if Abadon is actually Walt- Ben shot him.. will he be kept somewhere as the proxy for the next flight?? We know Walt is important to the Island perhaps getting shot was his way back??? I know I"m speculating but you just never know with this show.. Ben also said he has a man working for him watching everyone.. Could it be Charlie??? It would make sense yes we saw the underwater station fill up with water however Mikael could have taken him...
Just a thought..

LockeProblm

02-26-2009, 04:58 PM

1.) If Locke couldn't kill himself because the Island wanted him alive, then Ben couldn't have killed him either.

2.) Clearly the Island wanted Locke dead. Christian, who speaks for Jacob, who speaks for the Island said Locke had to die.

So Locke could have killed himself, because the Island wanted him dead. However, I have no idea why Ben killed him.

P.S. I'm glad Locke didn't kill himself. He's better than that.

wanders01

02-26-2009, 05:09 PM

Didn't Christian say to Locke that he had to die. He didn't say you have to kill yourself.

kitten091182

02-26-2009, 08:03 PM

I dont understand this. If Ben needed Locke dead, why did he prevent him from killing himself? At what point in their conversation did he decide to kill him? After watching it a couple of times, Ben did seem to feel uneasy when Locke mentioned that Jin was alive, but i dont know what that would have to do with anything? He strangled him right after he mentioned Eloise Hawking, but Ben knew about her anyway and knew her personally anyway. Im thinking there is something to do with Jin?

xanderthemighty

02-26-2009, 08:32 PM

Mayhapse ther are some theories going around about this.The first time I watched it, I thought Ben was there to stop Locke from killing himself... but if that were the case, why did Ben have gloves and wipes to clean a crime scene if he didn't plan to kill Locke. Maybe by being Locke's killer it links the two which allows Ben to go back to the Island... or maybe he just carries the gloves and stuff around all the time... if that's the case then I wouldn't feel too comfortable around him.

Bluedog1121

02-26-2009, 08:35 PM

Maybe by being Locke's killer it links the two which allows Ben to go back to the Island....

I like that one. I haven't heard it before. Before, meaning today. LOL

We don't know how much time passed between Ben strangling John and Ben's cleanup/staging of the suicide. Ben could have gone out for cleaning supplies, or had one of his lackeys deliver them.

RAD24

02-26-2009, 08:35 PM

For some reason, I don't think Locke was supposed to kill himself... but he was supposed to die, and Ben knew that.

Renault

02-26-2009, 08:44 PM

Just because Ben know who Eloise is, that doesn't necessarily mean that he knows that she is the one to show them how to get back to the island. I'm sure there's lots of important people scattered about the world that Ben is aware of. She's just one of many.

Of course, after Ben hears what he needs to hear, Locke becomes expendable. But still, there must be a reason for Locke's death, because Ben is the first person to suggest that the 06 need to bring Locke back too, when he could have just said nothing and left John for dead.

rkcrawf

02-26-2009, 08:52 PM

I would actually like to get a better understanding of Ben's motives since last season's finale through this episode.

After Alex died, Ben chooses to move the island. He knows he will have to leave as part of that process, and at least tells John that he won't be able to come back (possible lie). At that point, I think the Mercs were dead, so there was no reason for him to get off the island, except to find Widmore. But that's an odd reason to leave if you think you can't come back...

At that point, Ben could have convinced Locke to move the island, so that Locke leaves. That's what Christian/Jacob wanted, and Locke would have done it. Ben goes back to being king of the hill presumably, so why stop it?

When Ben visits Locke off-island, we have no reason to think Ben's already talked to Hawking (why didn't Locke go see Hawking??). Ben shows up, not knowing that Locke knows about Jin or Hawking. So what did he want? Does he think that just because it's Locke, Locke may be able to get them all back? Or when he hears about Hawking, does Ben think he doesn't need Locke alive? I do not think Ben thinks he needs Locke's body, because he would have arranged to have it transported right away with some hired goons and a dufflebag. Why go through the trouble of having to steal it back later?

As a side note, I think it's really cool that John leaves and returns to the island at the exact same moment. Not confirmed yet, but kind of cool if that's how it worked out.

Colonel Corn

02-26-2009, 09:21 PM

The second time I watched it while Ben is strangling Locke, Ben appears to be crying or something, or at least appears to be upset at what he is doing. I compare this scene to the similar strangling scene in No Country For Old Men, and there's a very different expression of Chigurr's face.

Ben and Widmore both say they are doing things so Locke can lead. Why do they have the same goal? What is Ben's real motivation? He stops Locke from killing himself, then he kills him, and then he safeguards and shepherds his body back to the Island. It has to all be for a reason.

UncleHenry

02-26-2009, 10:25 PM

I think Ben went to see Locke to pump him for information. He stopped Locke from the suicide but when he hears that Locke will meet Eloise he quickly kills him. Ben fears Locke and Eloise will compare notes and figure something out.
Meanwhile, Ben knows something about the future events on the Island, and knows that Locke will be back on the Island to play a special role, so Ben feels free to do great harm to Locke. confident that somehow time will course-correct itself.
Ben did this before when he shot Locke and left him for dead. He knew The Island would find a way to revive him.

divinesynder

02-26-2009, 10:42 PM

deeannek

02-26-2009, 11:13 PM

While I was watching Ben kill Locke last night, one thing popped into my head. We have been seeing a lot of the church where Eloise Hawking is attempting to determine how to get the Oceanic 6 back to the island. This maybe a stretch but what is the one sin you cannot be forgiven for? Suicide.Maybe Ben had to prevent Locke's suicide so that Locke would be able to return to the island. Maybe if Locke killed himself the island would not allow him to come back. I haven't got it all figured out yet but with all the christian imagery it seems like this could be the reason why. I have a feeling that freewill and destiny are part of it too but I am not sure how yet.

halfrek

02-26-2009, 11:22 PM

minor error with thread merging. thread is temp. closed while i try to fix it.

thread opened.

Fierro

02-26-2009, 11:32 PM

lostbylost

02-27-2009, 01:41 AM

My believe is that if Locke had died while losing all his faith, all would be lost. There would be no way to get everybody back to the Island. Locke's complete faith in the Island is what has made him special. He needed to die with that faith in tack. Ben helped him redeem himself and then killed him to prevent it from happening again. Locke's fate was to die. Maybe if he had killed himself he would not have been resurrected once he got back to the Island. Was it coincidence or fate that Ben shows up at his door at the moment he is about to kill himself?

merew

02-27-2009, 09:48 AM

toddintexas

02-27-2009, 10:24 AM

I think this episode turned everyone against Ben and portrayed Widmore as the actual good guy on purpose...it's misdirection. Ben has done a lot of exetreme things all in the sake of protecting the island...and he's prone to acting hastily based on his emotions.

Widmore hired a group of murderous thugs to kill everyone on the island...even the Others that he use to be part of. If you believe Bens photos, Widmore also killed Sayids wife Nadia...(Ben wasn't off the island yet)

We don't know Widmore did either of those things, just Ben telling us that he did and we all know Ben is a pathological liar.

My believe is that if Locke had died while losing all his faith, all would be lost. There would be no way to get everybody back to the Island. Locke's complete faith in the Island is what has made him special. He needed to die with that faith in tack. Ben helped him redeem himself and then killed him to prevent it from happening again. Locke's fate was to die. Maybe if he had killed himself he would not have been resurrected once he got back to the Island. Was it coincidence or fate that Ben shows up at his door at the moment he is about to kill himself?

I agree that Ben restored Locke's faith. When Locke was about to kill himself he certainly wasn't thinking about saving the Island, he was thinking about what a failure he was. He had reverted back to the man he was before the Island. I didn't understand why he hadn't sought out Hawking yet, or had called Widmore on the SAT phone. Locke's decisions seemed so strange, not like someone concerned about the Island. This is why I don't understand why Locke has been picked as the "chosen" one. He encounters adversary and he loses confidence, even after he's been told he's so special. It wasn't even like he had run out of options, he could still have looked for Hawking or called Widmore. Why does the Island want a leader who so easily loses faith?

It's a nice idea that Locke couldn't kill himself to return to the Island and that he couldn't die having lost his faith and I understand it but I'm not totally sold on it. Why didn't Richard tell Locke he couldn't kill himself or the Island was doomed? Plus, Christian certyainly seemed to kill himself (the ME said his alcohol content was so high it probably brought on a heart attack) and he's up walking around, resurrected on the Island.

Although having written that, now I'm wondering........did Christian actually die from drinking himself to death? Christian was a drinker, so I'm sure he built up a tolerance for alcohol, so would the amount of alcohol that could have killed him really be able to kill him? I doubt there was an autopsy done, since the ME says "probaby killed him". So did Christian die by his own hands or was he murdered? It would be nice to get a Christian FB to confirm his actual death.

So Ben may have actually known what he was doing, it's just I have a hard time trusting that man. Plus why did he say "I'll miss you John" if he knew what was going to happen? Sigh, I think I just confused myself more...............

Laurieg

02-27-2009, 11:42 AM

What if John missunderstood what he was supose to do?
Maybe he was never suppose to talk them in to going back. Maybe only his dying would get them to go back and he would be resurected on the island after he killed himself.
Maybe the island knew he would take his own life in dispare or in a last attempt to get them to go back. John did know he was suppose to die.

What if Ben knew this? Ben figured if he killed John then the o6 would go back, but maybe he could stop John from being resurected on the island because John didn't kill himself like he was suppose to. Hense the "I'll miss you John"

That would help get the O6 to agree to go back and get John out of Bens way.

I can't wait until Ben sees John on the island. His reaction should tell all.

theVOID

02-27-2009, 11:52 AM

toddintexas

02-27-2009, 12:25 PM

Ben never knew that John Locke was supposed to die, so him murdering John doesn't seem like Ben being the informed agent of destiny, more like Ben making his moves, playing his game, and i believe this is tied in directly to what Widmore said "There is going to be a war John, and if you're not back on that island, the wrong side is going to win" This is Ben demonstrating that he is on the team that does not want to get John back to the island, which brings me to Ben's real motives - He wants to get back to the island and lead the others - but the island is not on his side it seems, becausenthe miraculous uninjured few who must be needed by the island in some way is not what Ben is anymore, he is in the pit with the other expendable people.

Richard and Christian both wanted John to die - Widmore and Abaddon did not - Must be a clue in that

We don't know what Ben knows. Ben seems to know alot of things, so I wouldn't be surprised if he does know Locke needs to die. He may also know that Locke can't kill himself and he needed to have his faith restored which is precisely what happened, thanks to Ben. (It pains me to say that!)

I can't wait until Ben sees John on the island. His reaction should tell all.

That is something I'm looking forward to!

enigma420

02-27-2009, 12:29 PM

Apologies if this has been posted, but I didn't see it in the last couple pages. This is a fantastic take on it, and I think the guy hit it right on the head.

It was Benjamin Linus... In the Hotel Room... with the Extension Cord
So by the end of the episode, John Locke is now Jeremy Bentham. Since leaving the island he's been changed physically, he's been changed emotionally, and even his very name has changed. Important to note here that all of this, with the exception of the crippled part, is courtesy of Mr. Charles Widmore and Driving Ms. Daisy.

At the point Locke climbs onto that table to kill himself, he's doing it purely for suicidal reasons. He's convinced that he's failed, and I'm pretty sure not one single part of him thinks he's doing it for the 'good of the island'. Screw Richard, screw Widmore, screw Jacob and ghost-Christian Shepard... Locke legitimately wants to die, island be damned. And that's when Ben knocks on the door.

Ben's not here to prevent John Locke's death. Ben knows Locke needs to die to go back to the island, but he also knows that dying faithless would be catastrophic. Ben's here to repair the damage caused by Jack, Sayid, Kate and Hurley. Ben's here to re-infuse Locke with the confidence and purpose he had when John turned the donkey wheel just few short days ago. He tells Locke that he's not a failure. He pleads with Locke not to kill himself. He talks Jeremy Bentham down off the ledge, gives him a hug, lets him know that all isn't lost. "Hey man, it's okay. You're not a loser. Jack booked a ticket. If you get Jack, you can get the rest of them. Good job, man. High five."

Jeremy Bentham dies here, and the old John Locke is back. He even thanks Ben. This is the guy who kidnapped people, the guy who told string after string of filthy lies. This is the man who gutshot Locke and left him in a pit full of rotting corpses. But hey, all is forgiven in lieu of the island. Suddenly John believes again - his faith is restored - his life is filled with purpose and direction once more. NOW he's ready to go back to the island. NOW Locke has fulfilled his leap of faith. And now, as Ben knows all too well, Locke needs to perish in order to return to the island via the Christian-corpse-proxy.

In short, Locke needed to die - but not by his own hand. There are rules that need to be followed, and Ben is fully versed in them. I hate to keep quoting Ms. Klugh, but as she once said to Michael: "It doesn't work that way". Benjamin Linus knows the way it works. So does Charles Widmore, which may be why he didn't want Locke back on the island despite all the things he said about helping him get there. Ben knew that if Locke had died faithless, or by suicide, he might not have been resurrected. That's the single most important part of his visit to the hotel room.

Don't fall into the trap - don't think for one minute that the mention of Ms. Hawkings name suddenly 'changed Ben's mind' or gave him stranglerrific ideas. Ben didn't just happen to have a spray-bottle of bleach and some green latex gloves on him, nor did he stop at the 24-hr Quickmart to pick them up afterward. You can bet your *** that everything he does is coldly calculated, and Ben already had that stuff when he showed up. He knew he'd have to kill Locke just as certainly as he knew he had to make it look like a suicide. Do you think Ben wiped his fingerprints from the extension cord and bleached the room to avoid being caught by the cops? No, he needed the newspapers to reflect that Jeremy Bentham had taken his own life. This got Jack to the funeral, but more importantly it served to let Charles Widmore think he'd succeeded in driving Locke to suicide. Sneaky crap? Yup. That's Benjamin Linus.

In fact, the only thing Ben didn't count on was the survival of Jin. And he seized that opportunity quickly enough, knowing he could use Jin's wedding ring to easily lure Sun back to the island. With Locke in a coffin, Jack already cracking, and Jin's ring in his pocket, Ben knew the chances of an O6 return to the island were suddenly looking very much up. I'll also say Ben might not have expected to hear the name Eloise Hawking from John's lips, but this was something Daniel changed afterward and Ben had no way of knowing about it yet.

Finally, I also think Ben was telling the truth when he told Locke that Widmore was using him. His words here were frantic and strained, his whole demeanor was a lot different than the rest of his conversation with John. Of course, Ben needs to stop telling people that Widmore is 'extremely dangerous' and start telling them WHY he is. That might kinda, like, help him gain some credibility or something. But doing that would give us the same information by default, and the writers probably don't want to spring that one on us just yet. I still keep putting myself in Ben's shoes though, imagining how frustrating it must be to have to do all this seemingly evil crap in order to 'get people where they need to be', all for the good of a cause we have yet to finally see. Ben is the ultimate Abaddon.The rest of the article is a pretty fantastic read as well, and can be found here:
http://darkufo.blogspot.com/2009/02/things-i-noticed-life-and-death-of.html

pascalephoto

02-27-2009, 12:41 PM

Ben and Widmore both say they are doing things so Locke can lead. Why do they have the same goal? What is Ben's real motivation? He stops Locke from killing himself, then he kills him, and then he safeguards and shepherds his body back to the Island. It has to all be for a reason.

Maybe there is a prophecy in the temple that tells of John's death and it didn't have anything to do with him killing himself.

Cardielost

02-27-2009, 01:28 PM

When looking at both Ben and Widmore's motivations, we have to consider one thing we aren't yet sure of: when did the disappeared O6ers land, and were Ben and Widmore both on the island then? We have to remember that both these combatants in "the war" may very well have debriefed the returned Losties decades before Jeremy Bentham started making his rounds.

What we do know, already, is that Widmore found out in 1954 that Dan, Charlotte and Miles were going to get trapped on the island when it moved in 2005. That's why he had Abaddon put them on the freighter. It is Abaddon's job to get people where they need to be, and Widmore knows 100% that the Freighties have to get there before Locke and the O6 leave the island. He also knows that Sawyer and Juliet don't die, so if he sent the mercs to kill everyone on the island, he had to know that they wouldn't succeed.

The way Emerson played the moments when he was killing Locke, cleaning up and saying good-bye, with no audience requiring a lie, tells me that Ben does not expect Locke to resurrect and that his goal was to prevent a live Locke from ever setting foot on the island, at least after he heard Hawking's name. What his motivations were are still unclear to me, but I'll bet on that.

Cardie

Schmiblical

02-27-2009, 05:50 PM

yes - i agree. ben came to kill locke. we prepared to do it. he had cleaning equipment for crying out loud. he had to stop locke because he had to be the one to do it. remember - richard said locke had to die - not that he would have to do it himself.

Maybe the Canton/Ranier carpet cleaning van already was Ben's mode of transport, and that stuff was in the back?

eyekon

02-27-2009, 05:52 PM

Ben's motivation has always been a reunion with his mother...

[eyekon]

NLF

02-27-2009, 06:33 PM

I think Ben knew Locke had to die, but not commit suicide. As my husband said, its not really much of a sacrifice if you kill yourself, because you feel like a failure. Ben went there to kill Locke, but Ben would never let a chance like that to get info, go by. Ben is always thinking and plotting even when he is on a mission to kill someone. There is always something more he can gain from it. When he got the info about Eloise Hawking, he had gotten what he came for and finished his job.

lundi

02-27-2009, 06:56 PM

Ben's motivation has always been a reunion with his mother...

[eyekon]

That's a very, very good point. One the we have forgotten to mention.. but very important. I wonder how that will evolve.

Calliope

02-27-2009, 07:04 PM

Although having written that, now I'm wondering........did Christian actually die from drinking himself to death? Christian was a drinker, so I'm sure he built up a tolerance for alcohol, so would the amount of alcohol that could have killed him really be able to kill him? I doubt there was an autopsy done, since the ME says "probaby killed him". So did Christian die by his own hands or was he murdered? It would be nice to get a Christian FB to confirm his actual death.

I wonder if Ben sweet-talked Christian out of suicide, too, then killed him. Ben's just so fantastically outrageous, you have to love him!

There's so many parallels between Christian and Locke, they both used aliases, went on a dangerous trip and apparently failed in their missions. But I have no idea, if Ben was aware of all the circumstances leading up to the 815 crash, I guess not. I also wonder if Claire and Christian were on the infamous Jacob's list and thus Ben knew about them. He certainly didn't know about the people not on the list.

Hee, if we knew Ben's motivation, then, or now, I suspect so many parts of the puzzle would neatly fall into place, that we could see the whole picture. Ben's picture. Be afraid, be very afraid :biggrin:.

NBC001

02-27-2009, 07:40 PM

The Life and Death of Jeremy Bentham

WIDMORE: Because that's the exit. I was afraid Benjamin might fool you into leaving the Island, like he did with me. I was their leader.
LOCKE: The Others?
WIDMORE: They're not the "Others" to me. They're my people. We protected the island peacefully for more than three decades. But then I was exiled by him... just as you were.
LOCKE: No. Ben wasn't even there when I left. He was already gone. I--I... I wasn't exiled. I... chose to leave.

Widmore knew that Ben wasn't there because Ben had already come and spoke with him two years ago. The cameras were put up after Ben arrived. Widmore was watching in case anybody else showed up.

The Shape of Things to Come

WIDMORE: That island's mine, Benjamin. It always was. It will be again.
BEN: (Turning) But you'll never find it.
WIDMORE: Then I suppose the hunt is on for both of us.
BEN: I suppose it is. Sleep tight, Charles.

Ben has been trying to find the Island since he arrived in Tunisia. He is in the same situation as Widmore. Getting even with Widmore had just been a side job while he was trying to find the Island. He manipulated and used Sayid to accomplish this while he was doing what he felt was more important, finding the Island.

TLADOJB

WIDMORE: I haven't tried to kill you. Would you say the same for him?
[Rooster crows, goat bleats in distance]
WIDMORE: [Chuckles] You still don't trust me.
LOCKE: You sent a team of killers and a boatload of C-4 to the Island. That... doesn't exactly scream "trust

TLADOJB

LOCKE: No! Widmore came to me. He saved me.
BEN: No, John, he used you. He waited till you showed up so that you could help him get to the Island. Charles Widmore is the reason I moved the Island! So that he could never find it again, to keep him away so that you could lead. You can't do this. If anything happens to you... John, you have no idea how important you are. Let me help you.

Both Ben and Widmore are manipulating Locke and using him to find the Island. They think that if they find the Island they will be able to get back to the Island. Both Ben and Widmore have been watching the O6. They both have files on them and they both know exactly what they are doing and where they are at. Widmore knew who Locke had spoken to because of Abaddon. Ben knew who Locke had spoken to because he was having them watched.

Locke was the first one to tell the O6 they had to go back. Ben did not speak to any of the O6 (except for Sayid) until after Locke had talked to them.
The first time Ben spoke to any of the O6 (except for Sayid) was the night he spoke with Jack at the funeral parlor. Ben had no idea how to get back to the Island. He might have known about the Lamp Post but did not know where it was located.
TLADOJB

BEN: Once we can get them all in the same place... I don't know where we go from there, but we'll figure something out.
LOCKE: I know where we go. There's a woman here in Los Angeles.
BEN: A woman?
LOCKE: Yeah, I don't know exactly where, but she shouldn't be that hard to find. Her name is--is, uh... Eloise Hawking.
BEN: Eloise Hawking? You sure?
LOCKE: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, why? Do you know her?
BEN:Yes. John. I know her.

Locke told Ben everything he needed to know. Ben knew who Eloise Hawking was because she had been on the Island. So he didn't lie to Locke when he said he knew her. He did not know until Locke told him that she was the one that could get them back to the Island.
This is where I really start guessing.
Now that Ben knew what had to be done he started manipulating everyone to get them to agree to going back to the Island. He went to see Eloise Hawking after the article about Jeremy Bentham had appeared. Eloise knew Ben was a manipulator from her time on the Island so if he came and told her first Locke had died she would have immediately thought he killed him. This way he could claim that he had read about it just like everyone else. The one thing he didn't know was that Locke had to go back. Eloise told him and that is why he went to the Funeral Parlor.

Ben killed Locke for one reason and that is because Locke told him how to get back to the Island.
Widmore would have killed Locke if he had gotten this information from him.

mmpd

02-27-2009, 07:57 PM

These posts raise some interesting questions.

...
At that point, Ben could have convinced Locke to move the island, so that Locke leaves. That's what Christian/Jacob wanted, and Locke would have done it. Ben goes back to being king of the hill presumably, so why stop it?
...
.

Did Ben really believe Jacob wanted him to move the island? Locke tells Ben that he was told "we need to move the island." Ben certainly doesn't seem to be enjoying the job.

...
The way Emerson played the moments when he was killing Locke, cleaning up and saying good-bye, with no audience requiring a lie, tells me that Ben does not expect Locke to resurrect and that his goal was to prevent a live Locke from ever setting foot on the island, at least after he heard Hawking's name. What his motivations were are still unclear to me, but I'll bet on that.

Cardie

I agree with this. I don't think Ben expects Locke to resurrect--and I'm looking forward to seeing his face when he sees John on-island. Remember that Mrs. Hawking told Jack in private to give John something of Christian's. Agree that Ben's murder motivations are still pretty unclear--I'd guess it's that John gave him the info he needed with the mention of Hawking, coupled with the fear that Hawking and Locke won't necessarily want Ben to be in on the trip back.

...

Both Ben and Widmore are manipulating Locke and using him to find the Island. They think that if they find the Island they will be able to get back to the Island. Both Ben and Widmore have been watching the O6. They both have files on them and they both know exactly what they are doing and where they are at. Widmore knew who Locke had spoken to because of Abaddon. Ben knew who Locke had spoken to because he was having them watched.

...
Locke told Ben everything he needed to know. Ben knew who Eloise Hawking was because she had been on the Island. So he didn't lie to Locke when he said he knew her. He did not know until Locke told him that she was the one that could get them back to the Island.
.....The one thing he didn't know was that Locke had to go back. Eloise told him and that is why he went to the Funeral Parlor.

Ben killed Locke for one reason and that is because Locke told him how to get back to the Island.
Widmore would have killed Locke if he had gotten this information from him.

This sounds pretty convincing. A question: Is it possible that BOTH Ben and Widmore are bad guys, both trying to get to the island for their own agendas, with an unknown party being the "good guy," such as Jacob, Richard, or the island itself, which the Losties will have to defend?

johnnywishbone

02-27-2009, 08:06 PM

The way Emerson played the moments when he was killing Locke, cleaning up and saying good-bye, with no audience requiring a lie, tells me that Ben does not expect Locke to resurrect and that his goal was to prevent a live Locke from ever setting foot on the island, at least after he heard Hawking's name. What his motivations were are still unclear to me, but I'll bet on that.

Cardie

I agree with this. I don't think Ben expects Locke to resurrect--and I'm looking forward to seeing his face when he sees John on-island. Remember that Mrs. Hawking told Jack in private to give John something of Christian's. Agree that Ben's murder motivations are still pretty unclear--I'd guess it's that John gave him the info he needed with the mention of Hawking, coupled with the fear that Hawking and Locke won't necessarily want Ben to be in on the trip back.

Put me on the 'Agree' list. At the point that Cardie mentions (Ben saying goodbye), Ben probably doesn't even think he'll ever see John again. It may not be until Hawking informs him that Locke is one of the keys needed for a return trip to the island, that Ben even realizes that he'll need Locke....or should I say need his body.
All Ben needed to hear was that Hawking is who will assist in getting back.

losterer

02-27-2009, 08:46 PM

I think...Ben wanted John to die but not by commiting suicide, so that John would be a more accurate substitute for Christian. If a pair of shoes could make a difference, then I think the manner of death would also be significant. I think the Eloise Hawking revelation was a red herring designed to make Ben look more evil. Ben always has a plan....(ask Ben). I don't think you could say Christian drinking himself to death is equivalent to suicide in this instance. I don't eat excessive amounts of KFC because I want to kill myself. :rolleyes:

dtisme

02-27-2009, 09:20 PM

I totally agree Ben had to kill Locke for some greater good, so, as Lundi says here, by killing himself, Locke wouldn't "ruin the purpose of his death - to resurrect." If we picture Ben as trying put Locke in the leadership position from the get-go, we can see at each point how he did it. Everything to make John stronger (yes, even shooting him and leaving him for dead in a pile of corpses), everything to restore his faith. I totally buy the Christ theme - hell, Locke was the proxy for CHRISTian, after all, and I totally believe Ben has been manipulating him for his true purpose, the savior of the island. Why not Ben himself as the proxy for Christian? Because he's not worthy. He is, ultimately, the minion, not the lord. When he says, "I'll miss you, John," perhaps he means, I'll miss you AS John, because now, when you are resurrected, you will no longer be John Locke (or Jeremy Bentham), you will be ... wait for it ... Jacob. Or not. But I like to think so.

Lost Lenny

02-27-2009, 11:07 PM

Here's my take on it.

Locke was told that he needed to convince the O6 to return. He's also told by Christian that he's suppose to find Eloise Hawking. Locke tries to convince the O6 but he is unable to. Locke doesn't go see Eloise. I fully believe he had every intention of killing himself in that hotel room. But here's the thing.

Alpert said Locke would have to die. But Locke hadn't done what he was suppose to do. Locke was giving up and when Ben went to him I fully believe that he truly did not want Locke to kill himself. But when Ben heard that Eloise Hawkings was involved something must have made him change his mind.

I think either Ben is working with someone or he's just in the know of what's going on. Ben, I believe, knew that Locke would be okay after returning to the island. Also they needed to recreate the whole Christian Sheppard senario on the plane. Locke's death had an extreme play in the whole order of things. Even when he told Ben not to bring Sun back, Ben knew that was the wrong thing to do.

I think this episode turned everyone against Ben and portrayed Widmore as the actual good guy on purpose...it's misdirection. Ben has done a lot of exetreme things all in the sake of protecting the island...and he's prone to acting hastily based on his emotions.

Widmore hired a group of murderous thugs to kill everyone on the island...even the Others that he use to be part of. If you believe Bens photos, Widmore also killed Sayids wife Nadia...(Ben wasn't off the island yet)

I agree with these posts.

I believe that Ben is the "good guy" as he says. I believe that he truly does know what needs to happen and manipulates people into doing things they need to do...even if it means "temporarily" killing someone.
I believe that the killing of Locke was a method for the writers to throw us off track and start to see Widmore as a good guy...I'm not buying it. I don't see Ben killing Locke as anything other than Ben fullfilling the prophesy of the island...so to speak.

tommysoprano

02-28-2009, 01:22 PM

Or Locke could not choose death...it had to happen to him but not as a result of it being his choice.
But Ben did seem shocked when Locke brought up Eloise Hawking.

Yeah I almost thought Ben had to kill Locke, rather than Locke killing himself, because maybe the island wouldn't let Locke kill himself.......ALA Michael, when he kept pulling the trigger of the gun and it wouldn't go off, or crashing into the side of the building and living?

CaduceusRex

02-28-2009, 01:40 PM

100%
My gut reaction after seeing the scene was that Ben reacted to Eloise's name.
Is it possible that Ben did not know WHERE she was and when John said he had to go see Eloise in Los Angeles this was the missing bit of info that Ben needed for his plans.

remember Widmore gave John Eloise's address and stated she was a "very private person"....

Actually, Widmore told Desmond where to find Eloise. It was Christian/ Jacob who told Locke.

What I don't understand is: Why kill Locke at all if that was his original plan? Why not just let Locke do it himself, and then he could have gotten Sun's ring and such. Ben's smart enough to put two and two together I think. Besides Eloise Hawking, Ben didn't really get all that much information from John that I think he would have been eventually been able to acquire himself.

It just doesn't make sense. If Ben had a vengeful motive to this, then why go through all the trouble of protecting John's body and ensuring his return to the island, when he obviously knew John was going to be ressurrected when he didn't answer Jack's question about whether he was dead or not.

I admit I have a bias in that I'm a Ben fan, and am one of those hoping and suspecting that Ben is somehow trying to do some good, though for him of course, it wouldn't be in the conventional sense. And this certainly seemed to put him on the "bad" side again. But I cannot help but hope and wonder if it's just another red herring.

I mean tonight's episode, brought about the whole conundrum: Who to trust? Ben or Widmore? Whose on the "light" or "dark" side, Ben or Widmore? Both claim to be protecting the 06 & Locke but who really is?

The only reason I can think of as to why Ben murdered Locke (that puts him in the "good" light) is that he was protecting him from Widmore or Hawking, or that somehow suicide was not the way he was supposed to "die." I don't know, anyone, including Ben supporters have any more thoughts on this?

P.S. Remember Widmore said he would do everything in his power to prevent Locke from dying, which was what he was supposed to do. Perhaps Ben was just ensuring his death, and thus, return and ressurection to the island.

As a Ben fan myself, here's my possible take. For all the reasons listed; it couldn't be suicide, restoration of Faith, it HAD to be that way, Ben intended on killing him. Hearing John mention Ms. Hawking made John's relationship/leadership role to the Island more real, giving him the anger to complete his task.

As far as the "I'll miss you, John." IDK maybe he thought they'd be in different times upon return or just meant missing him while gathering the O6.

Bicklefitch

02-28-2009, 02:03 PM

Put me on the 'Agree' list. At the point that Cardie mentions (Ben saying goodbye), Ben probably doesn't even think he'll ever see John again. It may not be until Hawking informs him that Locke is one of the keys needed for a return trip to the island, that Ben even realizes that he'll need Locke....or should I say need his body.
All Ben needed to hear was that Hawking is who will assist in getting back.

This was my initial thought as well, but the more I think about it, the more I believe that Ben's line about missing John was a bit of misdirection. If Ben knew about Widmore's relationship with Abaddon and about Locke's importance to the island, there's no way he didn't know about Eloise and her role in all of this. This is Ben, folks. IMO, all of the big players (Richard, Ben, Charles and Eloise) have been aware for some time that Locke is 'supposed to' return to the island in a coffin.

Ben's main motivation in this scene was to intervene in John's suicide attempt behind the backs of the other major players. Like the magician at Ray's place, Ben needed to pull off a sleight of hand trick in order to position Locke correctly for the upcoming war alluded to by Widmore. He killed John at the mention of Hawking's name not because he had received any new information, but because he knew that Eloise was going to be Locke's next stop, and he had work to do before that happened.

lostbylost

02-28-2009, 07:24 PM

I still think it has to do with Proxies and the ability to get to the Island as a proxy but not just go back on your own. The reason I think this is because Widmore has known about Hawking all along. Also why didn't he get on the freigther and just helicopter over with Lapidus. It's not just finding the Island, there is much more to getting back than just knowning where it is. Locke was the Proxy for Christian because he couldn't get back as Locke, Ben was the Proxy for Locke for the same reason. Locke and Ben didn't flash because they were proxies and not the originals. If Sun is with Lapidus it blows some of my theory, unless not having Jin with her and having Jin's ring somehow prevented it. It seems pretty clear Sayid flashed because he was cuffed to Illana but isn't anymore.

Cardielost

02-28-2009, 08:27 PM

It really annoys me how the "who will flash and who won't" process is always saddled with an outlier that makes most theories not work. It would be so simple if we could just say that for the Lefties it was everyone who wasn't with the Others when Ben turned the FDW, but Locke was leading the Others and he did flash. Then Juliet, who might have had Other inoculation or some such thing does flash, along with the Freighties.

And the easiest way to explain who disappeared from Flight 316 is that it's only the O5--but then it seems likely that Sun is off with Lapidus.

Cardie

MysteryFan

02-28-2009, 09:14 PM

The theory that makes most sense to me is posted in the thread titled: "Wow! Widmore doesn't know that Eloise holds the Key!"

Widmore and Linus want to find the Island, neither knows how. Locke shows up, and Widmore reacts enthusiastically when he realizes the Locke is going to take the O6 back to the Island. Then he sets him up with Abbadon - Linus mentioned that it was a matter of time before Abbadon killed Locke and that part was true. All Abbadon needed was the info how to find the Island.

Linus wants to find out what Locke knows, and fishes around to see if he has any useful information.

Both men want the information and want the other not to get it. So whoever gets it from Locke first, will also kill him. Locke never said Hawking's name to Widmore or Abbadon. But as soon as he did to Linus, he was murdered.

lostbylost

02-28-2009, 09:23 PM

toddintexas

02-28-2009, 09:36 PM

There is more to getting to the Island than just finding it. Widmore sent his crew on the freighter, Ben had Michael on there as well. If it was just a matter of finding it, then why didn't Widmore just go with the everyone on the freighter.

My theory is that you can only get back by either recreating how you got there or by the way you left. I also thnik it mat have something to do with who is leading. Widmore seems to have been the leader when he turned the wheel just as both Ben and Locke did. Ben was only able to get back because Locke was dead and taking Christains place so he could take the place of Locke.

So how would that work for someone who was born there, and left by the FDW?

Also we know that Charlotte (and most likely Miles) was on the Island before and she managed to get there by helicopter which probably isn't the way she left.

I think turning the FDW requires something special for returning to the Island.

lostbylost

02-28-2009, 11:23 PM

So how would that work for someone who was born there, and left by the FDW?

Also we know that Charlotte (and most likely Miles) was on the Island before and she managed to get there by helicopter which probably isn't the way she left.

I think turning the FDW requires something special for returning to the Island.

Widmore is the only possibility of someone being born there and leaving via the FDW. IMO, that's why he isn't back on the Island. He couldn't just hop a copter from the freighter.

My idea is that you can only get back by bring a proxy for someone else. Locke was a proxy for Christian and Ben was the Proxy for the Locke that was on the plane prior to comming to the Island. Locke had to die because he couldn't come back as himself. He would have been rejected. Call it tricking time or circumstance into thinking the situation is the same. I also think that is why Ben and Locke landed on Hydra and not the main Island.

goddessblue

03-01-2009, 02:25 PM

Avius

03-01-2009, 02:29 PM

mmpd

03-01-2009, 06:02 PM

If Locke had done as instructed, and moved the island in the first place, would he not have had to bring everyone back at all? The only way he knew to do that was by skipping to Richard and getting it from him. If Locke had turned the wheel instead of Ben would he have just been exiled forever, having served his only purpose?

That's what I keep wondering. If he HAD turned the FDW the first time, what would have been the result and why would that be what CS wanted?

Automission

03-01-2009, 06:17 PM

rkcrawf

03-01-2009, 07:39 PM

I'm starting to think the story of Doubting Thomas applies to Ben (as Thomas), just as much as it applies to Jack.

For reasons mentioned earlier in this thread, I don't think that Ben really expected for Locke to end up alive again. I think Ellie tells Ben that he needs to bring John along for the trip, he may have some suspicions. Ben has lived on the island long enough to see some amazing recoveries (Mikhail for example). I think Ben really is curious as to whether John will be resurrected.

Can't wait to see his reaction to John in upcoming episodes.

mmpd

03-01-2009, 07:50 PM

It's really making little to no sense now. Ben turned the wheel as he thought Jacob wanted him to leave. Maybe this was to make the others think he would sacrifice himself for the island? He then tries to get them back, but needs all the information. He gets this from Locke, who he then kills to stop him hogging his glory.
He goes to see Hawking, who as a private person, welcomes this stranger who she wasn't expecting, and agrees to help him. He then returns, but having made sure to look after Lockes body this entire time. This strikes me as odd, as surely if it was just for the purpose of simulating the original crash, it wouldn't have been that important.

Even odder is how he thought he could return after being told he can't. I don't see how he can think this all will work, he defies the island by returning after he shouldn't of, and he'l now tell the others "I'm your leader again, Locke was wrong" or something. I hope this gets explained soon.

I don't think Ben is a stranger to Hawking; after all, she knows him well enough to tell Jack that he probably is not telling the truth. I also don't know if he absolutely can't return to the island. Maybe he's lying when he tells Locke that -- it serves the purpose of removing any desire on Locke's part to be the wheel-turner. Or maybe Ben is betting that he can "hitchhike" back during the extraordinary return of the O6, as the last member of their party and the island will let him back.