I've been back and forth a few times on who truly has the islands best interests at heart, and I've swung back to Ben being the evil one. I don't know why the mere mention of Eloise's name drove him to murder Locke, but I'm sure we'll find out soon enough. Good episode.

I was thinking before tonight Widmore was the bad guy and Ben (in his words) was the good guy. Even with all his manipulation I still felt Ben had a greater good to his mission. But now that he murdered Locke upon hearing the name of Hawkings I'm not sure.

I am very conflicted. Ben was one of my top characters and I was on his side. But now, killing Locke? I am so confused...grawr.

I still believe in him though. There's something about Widmore I never liked.

My distrust of Widmore after this episode, further solidified while my thoughts on Ben ultimately being some kind of tragic hero took a step backwards. Seemed like after Locke mentioned Hawking's name, Ben got upset. I think Ben's starting to realize that he may be getting played. Up until that line, I don't think Ben was going to kill John.

How crazy was that episode. Ben kills Locke and Abaddon, right when Abaddon was getting some spotlight too. Wild.

I'm still sticking by Ben. I think after everything plays out we'll see Ben is the good guy. Time will tell who's good and who's bad. It's still too early.

I don't trust either of them

i always assumed Ben is the bad guy...simply because he's been trying so hard to prove that he's not. his "friendship" has always seemed kind of forced and manipulative to me. but, in all honesty, i think Ben and Widmore are BOTH the bad guy. i don't think either of them can be trusted.

the only good guy is Locke. :biggrin:

Who do we believe. Ben did move the island and looked very upset while turning the FDW at the thought of leaving the island. But we don't know how Ben manipulated Charles to turn the FDW. Did Charles also think he was saving the island too? Yet Charles sent a bunch of mercenaries and C4 to the island to kill everyone. I don't remember there being any effort in NOT killing Locke. Why would Charles want to save Locke now, when he was willing to let Keamy and his men blow him up in the barracks?? And I have never believed a word that comes out of Ben's mouth.

Who is Good and who is Evil?

should make this an actual Poll thread

I'm going with Ben. He seemed to be all about helping Locke up until he found out he knew about Eloise. The minute he found that out, it's murderin' time.

Plus that Widmore was the one (through Abbadon) who got Locke to the island in the first place.

Then again, Richard seems to be of the same opinion as Ben, and Richard definitely seems good.

I think both Ben and Widmore are megalomaniacs, and both want the island selfishly. So neither are really good.

I was thinking before tonight Widmore was the bad guy and Ben (in his words) was the good guy. Even with all his manipulation I still felt Ben had a greater good to his mission. But now that he murdered Locke upon hearing the name of Hawkings I'm not sure.


I thought Ben got a funny look on his face when he heard JIN was alive. Maybe just me but I thought Ben decided to kill locke after heard Jins name and Hearring about Hawkins sealed the deal. But, Yes, I'm not sure who to believe. Maybe Ben and Widmore are Bad guys??? Maybe our Losties are the Only GOOD GUYS???:confused::confused::confused:

I honestly have no idea who's the good guy and who's the bad guy, or if there is even a good guy/bad guy. I do think they both primarily only care about their own agenda's.

i always assumed Ben is the bad guy...simply because he's been trying so hard to prove that he's not. his "friendship" has always seemed kind of forced and manipulative to me. but, in all honesty, i think Ben and Widmore are BOTH the bad guy. i don't think either of them can be trusted.

the only good guy is Locke. :biggrin:

Totally agree. Both of them are 'bad' guys when it comes to getting to the Island. That is all they want and would do whatever it takes to get there.
Now the question becomes, what does the Island mean to them?
Would Widmore use the island for profit and malice?
Would Ben keep the Island safe?
Who has the Island's best interests in mind?

I'll probably end up eating crow later on, but I believe Widmore. Abaddon's story fits with getting John to go on the walkabout to end up on the Island. Plus Ben tried to kill Locke after seeing Jacob (not to mention he killed Locke in this episode, although we don't know the why yet). I don't think all those people Ben had Sayid kill were doing anything other than watching, like Widmore said. Not to mention Ben just killed Abaddon. I know girlgoescrazy will flip, bit I think Ben's the bad one!:biggrin:

Forgot to mention, we've seen Ben continually lie and act terrible. All we've seen from Widmore is him acting like a jerk, have we seen him lie, other than when we saw him on the Island briefly?

ben came to kill Locke. where did he get all the stuff to clean up? you don't just go out and buy that. he was prepared. the other thing that no one is thinking is this - ben showed up as locke was ABOUT to kill himself. so - why not just let him do it if it was even a consideration?

there is a reason ben had to do it. i believe he is the good guy.

I'm with abbybaby; I think that neither Ben nor Widmore are "good guys". They're just part of a struggle and our Lostaways are their pawns. After tonight's episode I'm reminded of one of my favorite television shows: Babylon 5. In it there were two species, the Vorlons and the Shadows, who were fightin' a long war and usin' the "lesser" species as their pawns. That ended only when they were told by one of the humans to leave them alone (in so many words).

it almost seemed that when ben found out about jin he changed his mind to off john.

I'm still sticking by Ben. I think after everything plays out we'll see Ben is the good guy. Time will tell who's good and who's bad. It's still too early.

I'm still reeling in the shock of Ben actually killing Locke. I want to still believe that Ben will ultimately serve some better purpose, his reasoning to talk Locke off that table was sound. I was thinking TPTB were finally putting Ben on one side or the other, then he goes and kills Locke.

With some thought, maybe I'll come up with a case where what Ben did benefits the greater good, but right now I'm drawing a blank. Wow. That was just wild.

And Widmore's lying too. His reasoning for sending an unscrupulous mercenary to the island with guns, C4 and a team of other mercs is just to get Ben off the island? I'm sorry but how does C4 get Ben off the island? How does gunning down meat socks get Ben off the island?

Widmore knows Ben or thinks he does. I would think that some of his instruction to Abaddon that got passed to Keamy and Team was that Ben Linus values no one's life higher than his own, save maybe his daughter. Widmore had to know that the killing of anyone from 815 would only illicit a So? from Ben.

His plan was extermination of all of them. Locke included. Widmore wants to be leader of the island, and Locke, just as Ben was, is in his way of accomplishing that. Like Ben said or implied, Widmore is trying to piggy back on Locke's attempt to return so he can find the island again. So it can stabilize back in it's correct time and Widmore can search for it again.

I love Ben and detest Widmore, so I'm still trying to believe that Ben is the good guy in all of this. Tonights episode did throw some doubts into my head, but I still haven't changed my mind. I think Ben will turn out to be the good guy in the end.

i think Ben and Widmore are BOTH the bad guy. i don't think either of them can be trusted.

the only good guy is Locke. :biggrin:Amen!

should make this an actual Poll thread

I'm going with Ben. He seemed to be all about helping Locke up until he found out he knew about Eloise. The minute he found that out, it's murderin' time.

Plus that Widmore was the one (through Abbadon) who got Locke to the island in the first place.

Then again, Richard seems to be of the same opinion as Ben, and Richard definitely seems good.

I think both Ben and Widmore are megalomaniacs, and both want the island selfishly. So neither are really good.


Excellent post. I think both Ben and Widmore are fighting for control of the island and the 06 and the people on the island are just casualties

it almost seemed that when ben found out about jin he changed his mind to off john.

Actually it seemed he changed his mind when Locke mentioned Hawking, that is if Ben changed his mind and didn't plan to kill Locke all along.

What I also don't understand is who Mrs. Hawking is working with. She seems to be allied with Widmore, yet she then works with Ben to orchestrate the O6's return.

Definitely something about hearing her name seemed to make Ben snap.

I know one thing for sure: Widmore definitely is NOT the good guy. His orders for his mercenary team were to capture Ben and to kill everyone else on the island (including Locke). He's just playing the hand he's been dealt. He is using Locke to get back to the island.

I know one thing for sure: Widmore definitely is NOT the good guy. His orders for his mercenary team were to capture Ben and to kill everyone else on the island (including Locke). He's just playing the hand he's been dealt. He is using Locke to get back to the island.

I still have hope that Ben is doing this for a better reason. I think it plays out one of 2 ways: Ben is good, Widmore is bad; or they are both bad.

I don't think either of them are the good guy, I just hope Locke doesn't in turn become the bad guy. Both Widmore and Ben are out just for themselves to be the leader or what have you on the island and will go about it in any means necessary. I hope Locke doesn't become corrupted by power.

I know one thing for sure: Widmore definitely is NOT the good guy. His orders for his mercenary team were to capture Ben and to kill everyone else on the island (including Locke). He's just playing the hand he's been dealt. He is using Locke to get back to the island.

I still have hope that Ben is doing this for a better reason. I think it plays out one of 2 ways: Ben is good, Widmore is bad; or they are both bad.

Exactly, I keep remembering those orders given to the freighter folks, Daniel saying that their primary object was not to save them etc. I'm very reluctant to believe anything Widmore says. OTOH, Ben is a master manipulator and a liar as well, so the bottom line is that I have no clue who's the god guy and who's the bad one.

We still do not have enough information to answer this question. Everytime Widmore does something to look like the evil one, Ben unleashes something to look just as bad or worse. When Widmore does something to look good, Ben does something to look good. Over the course of time, both have told stories to make the other look like pure evil, and we still don't know which is right.

I'm still reeling in the shock of Ben actually killing Locke. I want to still believe that Ben will ultimately serve some better purpose, his reasoning to talk Locke off that table was sound. I was thinking TPTB were finally putting Ben on one side or the other, then he goes and kills Locke.

With some thought, maybe I'll come up with a case where what Ben did benefits the greater good, but right now I'm drawing a blank. Wow. That was just wild.

And Widmore's lying too. His reasoning for sending an unscrupulous mercenary to the island with guns, C4 and a team of other mercs is just to get Ben off the island? I'm sorry but how does C4 get Ben off the island? How does gunning down meat socks get Ben off the island?

Widmore knows Ben or thinks he does. I would think that some of his instruction to Abaddon that got passed to Keamy and Team was that Ben Linus values no one's life higher than his own, save maybe his daughter. Widmore had to know that the killing of anyone from 815 would only illicit a So? from Ben.

His plan was extermination of all of them. Locke included. Widmore wants to be leader of the island, and Locke, just as Ben was, is in his way of accomplishing that. Like Ben said or implied, Widmore is trying to piggy back on Locke's attempt to return so he can find the island again. So it can stabilize back in it's correct time and Widmore can search for it again.


I think your dead on with Widmore trying to piggyback his way to the island via Locke. What is confusing to me is that they both seemed to think that off island dead is dead? Widmore said he would do everything he could to make sure Locke didn't die and Ben seemed pretty confident that Locke was dead when he left Locke hanging from the beam. Do they not know about Christian Shepard?

it seems Ben is always one step ahead of Widmore

Walt's dream says Locke is in danger on the island by those that surround him.

Tell me, how much danger can a man who's already died be in? Most be some serious poo. Really, what atrocities are left that they can plague Locke with? Seemingly, he's alive as if he'd never died. At least, on island.

Well, Abaddon works for Widmore and Abaddon was the one who got Locke on the Island. We've been shown many, many times that Ben lies, I mean does he ever speak the truth? Plus Ben has done some despicable things. Ben tried to kill John once and now has succeeded in killing him.

Widmore on the other hand has done some pretty bad things, but has he been shown to lie? Other than on the Island have we caught him in a lie? Widmore just seems more trustworty, but that may mean nothing.

As for the freighter, Widmore did send it, and his instructions were to get Ben. I think the C4 and torching the Island were Keamy's idea. That dude was psychotic, but Widmore did hire him, so he probably knew what he was getting in Keamy.

I think it's really the lesser of 2 evils.

I can find so many reasons for both Charles and Ben being EVIL, and not much proof of either of them being GOOD. I find it hard to believe either of them.

Why did Ben kill Locke? Could it be that Ben knew Locke had to die per Alpert's comments to Locke. Yet, Locke could not kill himself. Many religions consider suicide the worst thing a soul can do. Even if Ben had told Locke, "Hey I have to kill you for it to be a good death" If Locke allowed Ben to kill him, would that technically still be a suicide? Yet, Ben did seem rather strange when Locke said Jin was still alive and really concerned at the mention of Eloise Hawking. And Eloise did work with Ben.

I hate Ben. But am leaning towards Charles being Evil and Ben being somewhat good.

Exactly, I keep remembering those orders given to the freighter folks, Daniel saying that their primary object was not to save them etc. I'm very reluctant to believe anything Widmore says. OTOH, Ben is a master manipulator and a liar as well, so the bottom line is that I have no clue who's the god guy and who's the bad one.

That's right the primary objective was to capture Ben. Saving the 815 survivors wasn't a thought because Widmore wanted them to remain on the Island, like they were suppose to.
100%
I can find so many reasons for both Charles and Ben being EVIL, and not much proof of either of them being GOOD. I find it hard to believe either of them.

Why did Ben kill Locke? Could it be that Ben knew Locke had to die per Alpert's comments to Locke. Yet, Locke could not kill himself. Many religions consider suicide the worst thing a soul can do. Even if Ben had told Locke, "Hey I have to kill you for it to be a good death" If Locke allowed Ben to kill him, would that technically still be a suicide? Yet, Ben did seem rather strange when Locke said Jin was still alive and really concerned at the mention of Eloise Hawking. And Eloise did work with Ben.

I hate Ben. But am leaning towards Charles being Evil and Ben being somewhat good.

Yet Ben said "I'll miss you John". Why would Ben say that if he thought Locke would be resurrected? Or does Ben not know that?

I love Ben and detest Widmore, so I'm still trying to believe that Ben is the good guy in all of this. Tonights episode did throw some doubts into my head, but I still haven't changed my mind. I think Ben will turn out to be the good guy in the end.


I continue not understanding all the support for Ben. I guess its becasue Emerson is great. And he is. Fabulous.

But what does it take? Ben is a liar and MASS murderer. Now he has killed Locke in cold blood. And not because he wants Locke back on the island in charge. Ben wants Ben back on the island in charge. As Sayid clearly pointed out........the only side Ben is on is Ben's.

Are there acceptible reasons for this behavior? All the excuses are now gone. This is a turf war between Ben and Widmore. Self-preservation or even planetary savior doesn't forgive Ben's behavior. If this is what it takes, let the earth blow up. It isn't worth it.

Well, Abaddon works for Widmore and Abaddon was the one who got Locke on the Island. We've been shown many, many times that Ben lies, I mean does he ever speak the truth? Plus Ben has done some despicable things. Ben tried to kill John once and now has succeeded in killing him.

Widmore on the other hand has done some pretty bad things, but has he been shown to lie? Other than on the Island have we caught him in a lie? Widmore just seems more trustworty, but that may mean nothing.

As for the freighter, Widmore did send it, and his instructions were to get Ben. I think the C4 and torching the Island were Keamy's idea. That dude was psychotic, but Widmore did hire him, so he probably knew what he was getting in Keamy.

I think it's really the lesser of 2 evils.

Torching the island was the SECONDARY protocol. The primary protocol seems to have been sending in a civilian team to see if they could do the job. We have no way of knowing what circumstances would be required for the secondary protocol to be activated. Widmore obviously knew 815 was there, and it isn't a far stretch to think he DID plant the fake plane. The secondary protocol could go into effect when they realize that the 815er's loyalties may be split and some may actually be helping Ben. At that point, they couldn't know who to trust and it would make sense to off all of them. You can't excuse Ben's actions for a greater good without taking into the same type of thinking if Widmore is being straight up. Considering the airfield that Ben was building with foreknowledge, the turning of the wheel when it was supposed to be John turning it, and the killing of John tonight, I'm really starting to worry about Ben. I've always felt that he was indeed protecting the island, but all of this smacks of Ben trying to outmaneuver Locke to maintain control of his leadership. I know we'll get AN answer from Ben next week, but I doubt it will be the truthful one, no matter how good he spins it. Please prove me wrong Benjamin. :(

I'm guessing Widmore to be the bad guy. Nothing too concrete or logical to back it up jsut some observations:

-Widmore's been off the Island for 20+ years and is desperate to get it back.
-Ben's been in charge for at least 10 years and the outside world has survived just fine.
-Widmore was an *** back in 1954. maybe safe to assume he still is.
-Ben arrived on the Island an innocent kid. not to say he still is of course.
-Widmore could have helped Locke out a bit more once he was off the Island.
-As soon as Ben knows Locke is back, he's on the O6's case.

Ben genuinely wants the O6 back and is THE ONE who made sure that Locke's body got on the plane.

-Always better to trust the devil you know!!!

Well, Abaddon works for Widmore and Abaddon was the one who got Locke on the Island. We've been shown many, many times that Ben lies, I mean does he ever speak the truth? Plus Ben has done some despicable things. Ben tried to kill John once and now has succeeded in killing him.

Widmore on the other hand has done some pretty bad things, but has he been shown to lie? Other than on the Island have we caught him in a lie? Widmore just seems more trustworty, but that may mean nothing.

As for the freighter, Widmore did send it, and his instructions were to get Ben. I think the C4 and torching the Island were Keamy's idea. That dude was psychotic, but Widmore did hire him, so he probably knew what he was getting in Keamy.

I think it's really the lesser of 2 evils.

I think Widmore just lied in this episode.

Richard made it pretty clear that there's a specific process for determining leadership of the others. It apparently starts at a young age. Widmore was seventeen when Locke first met him and most decidely not in charge of the others at that point. Richard was still higher up the ladder than him and Richard's been a number two guy down the line.

WIdmore's words:

He helped keep the peace for three decades on the island after he met Locke. He was their leader. He was exiled by Ben.

Lie: How did Widmore ascend to leader status? I don't buy it. Richard made it clear that they have a process. If Widmore was eligible for that process, he would have been consider long before Locke met him in 1954, when Widmore was still a lackey.

Lie: Three decades plus 1954 equals 1984. Ben was still a work man at that point. If the purge timeline holds up that doesn't happen for another eight years. While Ben may have designs to cut ties with DHARMA and join Richard in the woods, at that point Ben is in no position to exile Widmore.

Exiled: to banish or expel from one's own country or home.

That call had to come from someone who was an other. Someone who was Widmore's people. Ben was never an other, never one of thier people, while they may have known each other, Ben was not in a position to start that process in motion, imo. He may have helped lure or trick Widmore, but the scheme wasn't Ben's idea.

Richard is seeming more and more like the master puppeteer in all this. He may be using Ben as a smoke screen to keep out of Widmore's cross hairs.

Lie: IF Widmore was leader of the others and IF he were exiled by Ben, both things I doubt, then why would Richard just go along with that? Why would Richard, especially towards the end there, displeased with Ben's leadership, not just contact Widmore back up and say, Hey, you know what buddy, we really miss you back here and why don't I give you the address and you can pop back down. It'll be like old times,

I'll tell you why, because it was Richard who ousted Widmore (and most likely Hawking as well) in the first place. It was his scheme. Widmore doesn't know why Richard told Locke that Locke had to die because Widmore is no longer in Richard's good graces. They don't speak. Widmore no longer has that pipeline to the island. He's not flying completely in the dark about it, but it makes sense that he's not up to speed.

That's why he doesn't know about CS, why he doesn't know why Locke was told he had to die, why he's trying to use Locke to get back. To me, the whole scene between he and Locke was a bunch of BS on Widmore's part.

It further solidified my thoughts that Widmore is a much badder agent than Ben, though with the killing of Locke tonight Ben's certainly taken a few steps back from being the dark horse savior of Lost too.

I know one thing for sure: Widmore definitely is NOT the good guy. His orders for his mercenary team were to capture Ben and to kill everyone else on the island (including Locke). He's just playing the hand he's been dealt. He is using Locke to get back to the island.

I still have hope that Ben is doing this for a better reason. I think it plays out one of 2 ways: Ben is good, Widmore is bad; or they are both bad.

Actually the only person who said everyone was to be killed was Ben. Ben said they are here to capture me and kill everyone else. Faraday, Miles, Charolette, Naomi, Lapidus, the frieghter captian, Mincowski never said anything aboput killing anyone. They said they were not there to save the Losties. We only have Ben's word about killing everyone on the island. Also remember Ben tried to get Juliet to kill everyone on the island. Faraday and Charolette were disabling the gas but Ben tried to convince Juliet to stop them which would have released the gas killing everyone.

The facts that we know are that at one time Widmore was an other. Now he's off the island. We also know at one time Ben was an Other and now he's off the island. Although we also know Richard wanted Ben out of the leadership role and Locke to take over. I believe Richard over everyone and if wanted Ben out, that must say something.

Also add to the fact Ben has tried in the past to kill Locke and killed him eventually(Locke never told Ben he had to die, so Ben never knew), just further proves to me
that Ben is evil. As to if Widmore is good, that''s up for debate, but Ben is for sure evil.
100%
I'm guessing Widmore to be the bad guy. Nothing too concrete or logical to back it up jsut some observations:

-Widmore's been off the Island for 20+ years and is desperate to get it back.
-Ben's been in charge for at least 10 years and the outside world has survived just fine.
-Widmore was an *** back in 1954. maybe safe to assume he still is.
-Ben arrived on the Island an innocent kid. not to say he still is of course.
-Widmore could have helped Locke out a bit more once he was off the Island.
-As soon as Ben knows Locke is back, he's on the O6's case.

Ben genuinely wants the O6 back and is THE ONE who made sure that Locke's body got on the plane.

-Always better to trust the devil you know!!!

But what about:

1. Ben tired to kill Locke by shooting him
2. Ben did kill Locke
3. Ben tried to make it so Locke could not lead the others and only he could
4. Ben killed the Dharma Initative
5. Ben was going to let Juliet die
6. Ben stole the child of a pregnant women
7. Ben captured Jack even though he was not on Jacob's list
8. Ben tried to get Locke to doubt himself and the button
9. Ben convinced Sayid to kill for him
10. Ben ordered Claire to be taken and the baby to be cut out of her, leaving her to die
11. Jacob asked Locke to help him with Ben right there, Why would he if ben is the good guy.
12. Ben kidnapped Walt and experimented on him
13. Ben told Tom if anyone gets in your way of kidnapping the women, kill them.



I could go on and on. How does any of this appear like Ben is the good guy.

I think that Ben is the bad guy here. So far Widmore seems to be a lot better than he's been portrayed in previous seasons.

As far as who out of Widmore/Ben is good or evil.... It's a toss up at this point.... Honestly somewhat pointless to discuss, as there's little evidence for *either* being good, but plenty of evidence for both being evil, and, as another poster mentioned, selfish.

I lean towards Ben being the "good guy" if their is a good guy out of the 2. I think when we see 2 people at emnity with one another, our tendency is to try and cast one into the role of good, and one into the role of bad, but I just don't think that fits here and I think (as I've said numerous times) that's one thing the writers have done repeatedly throughout the show, i.e. complicating/deconstructing the binary opposition good/bad that we have such a penchant for both in our fiction and in "reality".

But man... As for Ben being good... It's a flimsy case at this point. A list of the people he's killed:

- Locke
- Abbadon
- his father
- roughly 100 people in the purge
- Keamy

There's probably more I can't think of. And let's not forget his indifference towards the people whose deaths he caused on the Freighter by killing Keamy, plus his indifference towards the other people on flight 316, and what might happen to them. Plus, the other people he ordered killed via intermediaries like Sayid off-Island, and Others on-Island.

And so far we've seen no motivation for any of this other than Ben's sociopathy.

In what universe is all that *not* evil? It's really amazing at this point that we still are holding out hope that Ben is the "good guy" as he says... But man. He's an evil man if their ever was one.

I think the more interesting question to be asking at this point, rahter than "Who out of Widmore/Ben is good/evil?" is this:

Why do these two men, who are bitter enemies, *both* want the O6 back on the Island?

Good post, Merch! While Ben is definitely not a good guy, I don't think Widmore is either. Both their motives seem selfish, and like Desmond said, they are just using all the 815 survivors as pawns. I think the good guys are going to end up being Jack and Locke and co.

As of tonight, I'm totally on Team Widmore.

Torching the island was the SECONDARY protocol. The primary protocol seems to have been sending in a civilian team to see if they could do the job. We have no way of knowing what circumstances would be required for the secondary protocol to be activated. Widmore obviously knew 815 was there, and it isn't a far stretch to think he DID plant the fake plane. The secondary protocol could go into effect when they realize that the 815er's loyalties may be split and some may actually be helping Ben. At that point, they couldn't know who to trust and it would make sense to off all of them. You can't excuse Ben's actions for a greater good without taking into the same type of thinking if Widmore is being straight up. Considering the airfield that Ben was building with foreknowledge, the turning of the wheel when it was supposed to be John turning it, and the killing of John tonight, I'm really starting to worry about Ben. I've always felt that he was indeed protecting the island, but all of this smacks of Ben trying to outmaneuver Locke to maintain control of his leadership. I know we'll get AN answer from Ben next week, but I doubt it will be the truthful one, no matter how good he spins it. Please prove me wrong Benjamin. :(

I thought the secondary protocol was the Orchid, and that's why Dan wanted off because he knew the Island was going to be moved. How does one torch an Island? Sounds to me like dropping bombs and nukes which they didn't have. The C4 was on the boat so it wouldn't have done anything to the Island. I don't think Widmore wanted to torch the Island. Why would he want to destroy the place he wants to get back too?

I think for the purposes of "Lost" we have to redefine the word good. Just as here in the U.S. we view ourselves as the good guys when we have gone to war and defended our country in order to preserve our freedoms and way of life. In the process people were injured, lives were lost. Yet it was for the greater good. Sadly, in Ben's eyes it seems those lives lost are but pathstones on the road to whatever his ultimate goal is. Collateral damage, even Locke.

Actually the only person who said everyone was to be killed was Ben. Ben said they are here to capture me and kill everyone else.

I remember that scene when they were in a house in Othersville in "Meet Kevin Johnson." You're right that Ben said that. Miles was there and didn't either confirm or deny that. I was just basing it on the fact that Miles didn't deny that so I just assumed it was true.

However, they did kill Alex, Karl, Danielle, some redshirts, and burned down the house Claire was staying in. In "Something Nice Back Home," when Frank meets some of them in the jungle, he said they better hide or Keamy will kill them all. It could just mean that Keamy was the bad apple of the bunch, but my feeling is the whole mercenary team was sent to kill everyone. To be fair, Keamy did not kill Kate when she ran into him at the helicopter.

I really think it could go either way. I definitely see your opinion though. :)

Good post, Merch! While Ben is definitely not a good guy, I don't think Widmore is either. Both their motives seem selfish, and like Desmond said, they are just using all the 815 survivors as pawns. I think the good guys are going to end up being Jack and Locke and co.

Thanks.

It's certainly looking that way. Makes sense too. The 815ers are the only group that has nothing invested in the island. Their choices can made with out bias or personal motivation. Seems that exactly why you have people like Ben, Richard and Widmore/Hawking trying to convince them to get on their side.

I wonder when the next Jack/Locke moment is going to come along. Jack listened to Locke, even after trying to cut him down. If not an apology, there at least has to some sort of awkward man hug :cool:

Merch, you're post is way too long to quote, so I won't, lol.

However, we don't know that Widmore was lying in this episode. Just because he says that he led the Others for 3 decades doesn't mean he started in 1954, he could have waited and started leading closer to 1962, when the time line matches up more.

Also, how do we know that Widmore wasn't being mentored from birth? When we saw him in 1954, he did seem pretty important. He made the comment about knowing the Island so well. Besides, Ben and Locke are supposedly Leader of the Others and they haven't been mentored from birth.

And as for Richard's actions? Who knows? That guy is an enigma.

All I know is so far, I've seen plenty more evidence of Ben being evil than Widmore.

I continue not understanding all the support for Ben. I guess its becasue Emerson is great. And he is. Fabulous.

But what does it take? Ben is a liar and MASS murderer. Now he has killed Locke in cold blood. And not because he wants Locke back on the island in charge. Ben wants Ben back on the island in charge. As Sayid clearly pointed out........the only side Ben is on is Ben's.

Are there acceptible reasons for this behavior? All the excuses are now gone. This is a turf war between Ben and Widmore. Self-preservation or even planetary savior doesn't forgive Ben's behavior. If this is what it takes, let the earth blow up. It isn't worth it.

You raise really great points, but I think do think there's more to it than just Emerson's awesome midwestern Shakespearean acting chops.

Sayid's quote is his opinion based on the knowledge he has. The mass murder of Dharma, well...uh. Greater good? Even though we feel like we do, we still don't know all the ins and outs of that organization. If Greater Good is preventing the apocalypse or something... I'm just saying, we don't seem to have all the info yet. Just impressions.

Speaking of- Widmore sucks. We really have no nice things to cite about the guy personally. He's a pompous jerk. Ben? Ben's whole story is still a mystery, and there remains an indication of a soft side. The Doubting Thomas monologue last week included both the famous story, and the "let us go with him" nobility of faith in the face of certain defeat which Ben seemed to be relating with somehow.

Also, in a way, Ben is becoming our protagonist. I'm very interested to learn his motivations. People cite that "Ben always lies", but when he gets emotional, I believe that we can take any emotion as genuine, even when his words aren't.

Come to think of it, his most emotional scene last year was before Alex was shot. He was so panicked and desperate, and at the same time...his words were lies! "She's not my daughter! etc." It was like a Rosetta stone to his character.

We've seen some impatient moments from him recently that have felt very genuine that you can contrast with his "oh, really? Jin's alive? Hm!" moments that are played with a falser one. I'd like to think that when it feels Ben's being real, we can take him at face value (even if the words themselves might not be exact fact).

Back to the Who's the bad guy question: The big mindf**ck of tonight's show for me was: why do Widmore and Ben want the same thing? If they are at odds for their agendas, why do they BOTH want the O6 back?

PS- if you're on the Widmore-is-a-good-guy train: Consider that Hurley doesn't trust Abbadon and Hurley is goodness and light, so to speak.

I have trouble seeing Widmore "leading" the others for 30 years. That would make Alpert an old guy, assuming time on the island is the same as every where else. Plus that doesn't leave him much time to build up Widmore Industry, because 17 (when he 1st saw John) plus 30 yeasrs is is nearly 50 years old when he left the island.

Ben on the other hand has never told the truth a day in his life. I have no idea what he's planning, but it's something BIG. The one thing I think know is he's out for himself, and the Island is obviously the prize.

The one thing I did believe about what Widmore said is that "a war is comming". Will it be: Widmore vs. Ben...Ben vs. the losties...Widmore & Ben vs. losties? Pretty soon it's going to to be who is on who's side. This has been a great season!!

Did anybody see Hurley painting the Spinx?

.the only good guy is Locke. :biggrin:
the only one who is still clueless is Locke.

I really hope Ajira has brought him back with a little more insight this time!
Torching the island was the SECONDARY protocol. The primary protocol seems to have been sending in a civilian team to see if they could do the job. ........ I know we'll get AN answer from Ben next week, but I doubt it will be the truthful one, no matter how good he spins it. Please prove me wrong Benjamin. :(
and his answer will be....."I did it for you Locke. I knew you'd wind up back on the Island, that's why I made sure your coffin was on the plane!"

re: the secondary protocol:
I thought the secondary protocol was the Orchid, and that's why Dan wanted off because he knew the Island was going to be moved.

yes, I believe the secondary protocol (Dharma logo and all) was about moving the Island. Widmore wanted Ben. If he couldn't get him, then he wanted the Island moved.

I agree with the folks who think both Ben and Widmore are baddies.

I continue not understanding all the support for Ben. I guess its becasue Emerson is great. And he is. Fabulous.

But what does it take? Ben is a liar and MASS murderer. Now he has killed Locke in cold blood. And not because he wants Locke back on the island in charge. Ben wants Ben back on the island in charge. As Sayid clearly pointed out........the only side Ben is on is Ben's.

Are there acceptible reasons for this behavior? All the excuses are now gone. This is a turf war between Ben and Widmore. Self-preservation or even planetary savior doesn't forgive Ben's behavior. If this is what it takes, let the earth blow up. It isn't worth it.

I'm definitely not denying that Ben has done horrible, horrible things -- things that can't be excused. But as you said, Emerson is FANTASTIC and somehow he always makes me like Ben anyway. I've always had a gut feeling that the show was trying to trick us into believing he was evil when he's really not, so I'm trying to stick by that (it's a bit harder now obviously... haha). I do think that Ben is one of the best (if not THE best) characters on television, evil or not.

I love Ben and detest Widmore, so I'm still trying to believe that Ben is the good guy in all of this. Tonights episode did throw some doubts into my head, but I still haven't changed my mind. I think Ben will turn out to be the good guy in the end.Be it bad guy or good guy, Ben is better at being both.

I continue not understanding all the support for Ben. I guess its becasue Emerson is great. And he is. Fabulous.

But what does it take? Ben is a liar and MASS murderer. Now he has killed Locke in cold blood. And not because he wants Locke back on the island in charge. Ben wants Ben back on the island in charge. As Sayid clearly pointed out........the only side Ben is on is Ben's.

Are there acceptible reasons for this behavior? All the excuses are now gone. This is a turf war between Ben and Widmore. Self-preservation or even planetary savior doesn't forgive Ben's behavior. If this is what it takes, let the earth blow up. It isn't worth it.The reason I like Ben, other than Emerson being amazing, is he makes a wonderful villain.

They've just muddied the waters enough to make me not care anymore. So now both Widmore and Ben are working toward the same purpose - to get the O6 back to the island. What's the point? Are we supposed to care?
It was no surprise to me that Ben killed Locke; I kind of expected it as Ben was helping him down through that whole horrible Locke-as-Christ-imagery scene.
Since Ben killed Locke and Widmore didn't, are we supposed to think that Widmore's good now? Until next week? Yawn.

Did Ben kill Locke just so he could be the proxy for Christian?
I think Ben will be shocked when he sees Locke alive.

Ben is bad bad bad bad bad. Widmore probably is, too.

Locke saves all.

I wonder when the next Jack/Locke moment is going to come along. Jack listened to Locke, even after trying to cut him down. If not an apology, there at least has to some sort of awkward man hug :cool:

I think I would be quite verklempt if that were to happen...

With both Ben and Widmore seeming to have selfish motivations, I could see Jack and Locke uniting - especially now that they are both men of faith - to save the island from them.

I'm definitely not denying that Ben has done horrible, horrible things -- things that can't be excused. But as you said, Emerson is FANTASTIC and somehow he always makes me like Ben anyway. I've always had a gut feeling that the show was trying to trick us into believing he was evil when he's really not, so I'm trying to stick by that (it's a bit harder now obviously... haha).

Agreed. I think Ben is definitely a bad guy, though he still could be working towards something that qualifies as the greater good in his warped mind. But at the same time, I just adore his character and love every Ben scene.

I say they are both Evil don't forget there Others!!!

I think we're ignoring the bigger picture here. When there's a "war" we assume there will be at least two sides. Each side will have an "army". In charge of that "army" will be a general.

And there will always be people who like power, vying for the position of general.

Maybe Ben and Chuck are on the same side here, really, they're just competing for the same job within their side?

That's my thought on the whole thing. The war that's coming, I think that'll have to do with some outside force we haven't seen much of. We might get a little backstory on it this season, the season finale will be the opening battle, and then next season will all be the war. But ulimately, I think, ben and widmore are on the same side.

I don't know, honestly I have no idea. They both have such wonderful arguments for why they do what they do, but Widmore seems to be willing to go back and not be the leader which is not what Ben wants, Ben wants to go back and retake his position, although one could argue it was never Bens position in the first place, he stole it from Widmore. I'm just soooooo confused:frown::frown::frown: They both could just be playing Locke, and neither one wants him for anything, but they knew he would be the one to help both of them, whoever was able to hold the most sway over Locke, which was Ben due to his impecable timing, it seems he wasn't supposed to die, but then who does Richard work for?, does he want Ben in charge? I mean Richard told Locke that he was supposed to die, does it mean something that Ben killed Locke rather than letting Locke kill himself, maybe Ben needed more information before acting.
I have to stop, otherwise I'll be here all night.:biggrin:

Speaking of- Widmore sucks. We really have no nice things to cite about the guy personally. He's a pompous jerk.

Yes, he's a pompous jerk, and that's all we have. Everything else is impressions.

Ben? Ben's whole story is still a mystery, and there remains an indication of a soft side. The Doubting Thomas monologue last week included both the famous story, and the "let us go with him" nobility of faith in the face of certain defeat which Ben seemed to be relating with somehow.

Hmmmmm, do we really need to cite all the bad things we know ben has done? He's a pompous jerk like Widmore, but we can go further with what we know about Ben. He's kiled numerous times, including all the people he had Sayid kill, Abaddon, his own father and now Locke. I think there is far more evidence that Ben is evil than Widmore.

Also, in a way, Ben is becoming our protagonist. I'm very interested to learn his motivations. People cite that "Ben always lies", but when he gets emotional, I believe that we can take any emotion as genuine, even when his words aren't.

That is a fact Ben always lies. We haven't seen Ben get emotional very often. After Ales was killed, in the van with Sun and Jack and with Juliet at Goodwin's body. That's all I can remember right now. The Juliet thing was childish jeaousy and in the van was rage. Not very good emotions

PS- if you're on the Widmore-is-a-good-guy train: Consider that Hurley doesn't trust Abbadon and Hurley is goodness and light, so to speak.

Hurley certainly doesn't trust Ben either.:biggrin:

The reason that Hurley doens't trust Abaddon is because he said he was a lawyer with Oceanic. But really what was Abaddon supposed to say? He was with Widmore? Hurley would really have freaked out then!

Hurley not trusting Ben is completely founded by Ben's actions.

I think they are both bad. I think Ben may be a little more EVIIIIL but I think that they only have their own interests in mind and that they are using everyone else. What I don't know though, is where Eloise Hawking is going to play into all of this.

I can find so many reasons for both Charles and Ben being EVIL, and not much proof of either of them being GOOD. I find it hard to believe either of them.

Why did Ben kill Locke? Could it be that Ben knew Locke had to die per Alpert's comments to Locke. Yet, Locke could not kill himself. Many religions consider suicide the worst thing a soul can do. Even if Ben had told Locke, "Hey I have to kill you for it to be a good death" If Locke allowed Ben to kill him, would that technically still be a suicide? Yet, Ben did seem rather strange when Locke said Jin was still alive and really concerned at the mention of Eloise Hawking. And Eloise did work with Ben.

I hate Ben. But am leaning towards Charles being Evil and Ben being somewhat good.

Okay. Reasoning behind Ben's actions.

He knows Locke was visited and assisted along by Widmore.

Ben knows (or believes he knows) that Widmore is the badder guy. He even had me pretty convinced with his dialogue talking John off the table. I was sold completely right up until he killed him..

Ben is notorious for playing things close to the vest. Even if he did have a good reason for killing Locke, is their any confidant that Ben has who he would trust with his reason? Is there any scenerio where we'd see Ben divulge that information? Maybe if the man kept a diary and we were able to read it over his shoulder.

Ben seems convinced that Locke doesn't have to die to bring them back, even telling Locke that Jack does believe him and has a flight across the pacific, hoping it'll crash. Jack's on board, so the rest will follow suit. No need to kill yourself John! (that was my impression anyway.)

Now, Ben doesn't seem like he's going to kill Locke, imo, until Locke mentions the name Eloise Hawking. That's a name Locke could have only learned from Widmore. I think that's the first indication for Ben that he's being played/used by Hawking and Widmore.

Two things could cross his mind at that point. Does Widmore want Locke alive or dead? If I help John live, will Hawking/Widmore know I've intervened? At that moment I think he's getting the first inclination that he may be out of the loop. The concrete proof of that is finding out Faraday is Hawking's kid imo.

At that moment Ben's choice is based around what would be more detrimental to Widmore's possible plan? Ben believes Widmore is ultimately badder than he is, so from that perspective, Widmore gives Locke Hawking's name, wants John to visit herand be alive, then an alive Locke must not help the island. Stopping John from killing himself plays into Widmore's hands.

At that point, can Ben really talk Locke back into killing himself? Not with out revealing the things he knows and for whatever reason, Ben is incapable of doing that. Since he is, we the audience never know where his motivations are coming from.

In short, I think Ben ends up killing Locke because he comes to the conclusion after the Hawking name drop, that Widmore wants Locke alive. And from Ben's perspective, and going by the good points he made up until the instant he killed Locke, Widmore is that badl; his island intentions are bad; his business is bad. The unlikelihood of talking Locke back into the noose leads Ben with no choice but to kill him.

Because a dead locke is good for the island by reasoning that a dead locke is bad for Widmore. I think Ben's agenda is to counteract Widmore's every move and intention. Ben believes Widmore's the worst of the two. His actions are driven by that thought.

I hope that makes some sense. I was nodding off earlier on the enhanced episode. Having Wednesday's off makes the day seem longer somehow, more draining.

2. Ben did kill Locke Maybe he had to since JL couldn't kill himself, we'll see.
4. Ben killed the Dharma Initative He participated in a larger plot to kill them. Whose to say Widmore doesn't end up being who was behind that after all ?
7. Ben captured Jack even though he was not on Jacob's listBack surgery requires desperate measures.
8. Ben tried to get Locke to doubt himself and the button Hell, I STILL doubt the button a little, despite the explanation - we just don't know what the 'incident' was.
9. Ben convinced Sayid to kill for him Sayid was no innocent, so it will all depend on Ben's being finally shown to be good or evil.
11. Jacob asked Locke to help him with Ben right there, Why would he if ben is the good guy. Didn't he just say 'Help me' ? What's specific about Ben in that ?

If Ben turns out to be 'good' in the larger scheme of things after all, then many of the other acts listed would be considered 'justifiable' acts of war, no doubt.

Hurley certainly doesn't trust Ben either.:biggrin:

The reason that Hurley doens't trust Abaddon is because he said he was a lawyer with Oceanic. But really what was Abaddon supposed to say? He was with Widmore? Hurley would really have freaked out then!

Hurley not trusting Ben is completely founded by Ben's actions.

Hee. I just have this vibe that Ben has some Big Picture justification for his actions/lies that serve a purpose. I suppose I subscribe to his having some sort of foreknowledge of everything and he has to play through to bring it about.

I didn't read the van outburst as rage, however, I read it as frustration.

Abaddon's not good news, though. The show has always given him a sinister aura.

Hee. I just have this vibe that Ben has some Big Picture justification for his actions/lies that serve a purpose. I suppose I subscribe to his having some sort of foreknowledge of everything and he has to play through to bring it about.

I didn't read the van outburst as rage, however, I read it as frustration.

Abaddon's not good news, though. The show has always given him a sinister aura.

We don't know Abaddon was bad news. The only sinister thing about Abaddon (other than his name) was he was a mystery when he visited Hurley and Hurley freaked out. Now we know why he lied, Abadon couldn't have told Hurley he was working for Widmore.

Plus, Abaddon was the reason Locke went to Australia and ended up on the Island, that doesn't seem sinister at all.

Ben is all about sinister!

I believe both are evil. Christian Shepard, presumably representing the island, gave Locke very specific instructions which both Charles and Ben contradicted. For example, both of them at least claimed they didn't want John to die, even though John said he would need to die.

Good post, Merch! While Ben is definitely not a good guy, I don't think Widmore is either. Both their motives seem selfish, and like Desmond said, they are just using all the 815 survivors as pawns. I think the good guys are going to end up being Jack and Locke and co.

Merch, you're post is way too long to quote, so I won't, lol.

However, we don't know that Widmore was lying in this episode. Just because he says that he led the Others for 3 decades doesn't mean he started in 1954, he could have waited and started leading closer to 1962, when the time line matches up more.

Also, how do we know that Widmore wasn't being mentored from birth? When we saw him in 1954, he did seem pretty important. He made the comment about knowing the Island so well. Besides, Ben and Locke are supposedly Leader of the Others and they haven't been mentored from birth.

And as for Richard's actions? Who knows? That guy is an enigma.

All I know is so far, I've seen plenty more evidence of Ben being evil than Widmore.

They are getting longer as more info gets put into each episode. :biggrin:

I just think that if the scheme was Ben's idea all along, and that he ends up leading Ricahrd and the others, that Richard and the others had to be in on it as well. Widmore was an other. He was people. Ben's an outsider.

There's still a fall out with Richard if Widmore was ever infact leader of the bunch. Widmore doesn't know why Alpert told Locke he had to die because he's no longer in the know about island goings on. And if Richard tells Locke he needs to die, of course Widmore is going to try and keep him alive. It goes against what Richard wants and Richard was part of coup that was lead against him.

Which makes me think that the reason Ben kills Locke is because he realizes that Widmore wants Locke alive. The Hawking name drop tells Ben Widmore was going to send Locke to her. Why and what for is unknown and irrelevent to Ben at that point, what he knows is that talking Locke out of that noose plays into Widmore's hands.

Ben see's Widmore as being ultimately a badder dude than he himself. Can Ben really talk John back into the noose after convincing him out of it? Not unless he wants to reveal his complete motivations and reasons. I think Ben's train of thought is similar to what Desmond said to Charlie: he didn't want to tell Charlie about the flashes, with him getting an arrow in throat, because he thought it would change the outcome.

ETA there's another one. They start out short, I swear....

Ben playing his cards close to his chest could be Ben trying to keep intact a series of blurry images that haven't happened yet. Talking about them, about why things need to happen in a certain way, could change those images maybe.

Ben kills Locke because it goes against what Widmore wants and Ben knows it. And if it goes against what Widmore wants than by default it must be good for the island. From Ben's perspective anyway.

I remember that scene when they were in a house in Othersville in "Meet Kevin Johnson." You're right that Ben said that. Miles was there and didn't either confirm or deny that. I was just basing it on the fact that Miles didn't deny that so I just assumed it was true.

However, they did kill Alex, Karl, Danielle, some redshirts, and burned down the house Claire was staying in. In "Something Nice Back Home," when Frank meets some of them in the jungle, he said they better hide or Keamy will kill them all. It could just mean that Keamy was the bad apple of the bunch, but my feeling is the whole mercenary team was sent to kill everyone. To be fair, Keamy did not kill Kate when she ran into him at the helicopter.

I really think it could go either way. I definitely see your opinion though. :)


Miles only looks out for Miles so I doubt he would chime in either way.

The thing is Keamy is the bad guy here. Let's look at it and see. Faraday, Naomi, Charolette, Miles and Lapidus were all sent in first. None of them had any intention of killing anyone. Keamy only did that and as shown, he doesn't mind killing anyone because he killed the Captian and said he would kill everyone on the boat if Lapidus didn't fly him back to the island. I really cant think Widmore planned to have Keamy kill the boat captian? For what purpose. Also it was Keamy who planted the dead man's trigger. Why would Widmore set that up. Cause then there would be no way to get off the island and he wanted Ben alive, not dead.

Also the secondary protocol of torching the island was only said by Ben. According to Keamy the secondary protocol was to find out where Ben would go if they were after him. I am pretty sure Keamy never said anything about torching the island in the secondary protocol.
100%
Maybe he had to since JL couldn't kill himself, we'll see.
He participated in a larger plot to kill them. Whose to say Widmore doesn't end up being who was behind that after all ?
Back surgery requires desperate measures.
Hell, I STILL doubt the button a little, despite the explanation - we just don't know what the 'incident' was.
Sayid was no innocent, so it will all depend on Ben's being finally shown to be good or evil.
Didn't he just say 'Help me' ? What's specific about Ben in that ?

If Ben turns out to be 'good' in the larger scheme of things after all, then many of the other acts listed would be considered 'justifiable' acts of war, no doubt.

1. But he tried to kill Locke in season 3. Way before Locke was off island. He did it as soon as he found out Locke could hear Jacob.

2. You may doubt what the button was actually for, but it was real since we saw what happened with Desmond, Penny, the sky and everything and not to mention it brought down 815.

3. If Ben was in perfect communion with Jacob why on earth would Jacob ask Locke to help him. Also why would he say it so Ben could not hear him. Also why would Ben tell Locke basically, lets see if Jacob can help you know?

I think the more interesting question to be asking at this point, rahter than "Who out of Widmore/Ben is good/evil?" is this:

Why do these two men, who are bitter enemies, *both* want the O6 back on the Island?

Good question Brotha Jefe. This is the crux of the debate, I believe. It's clear that Ben is bad. It's clear that while Widmore did probably want Ben extracted/killed, Widmore is also responsible for the contents of the secondary protocol, which was "kill everyone". So he's bad, too.

I hate the emerging revelation here that our Losties are pawns, that is so sad.

BUT, our Losties are good. The island is good (well, the jury's out on the island's pet Smoky, but let's just call that guard dogging). Locke is good, despite his insecurities.

So, back to the question "Why do they want the 06 back on the island?"

I think the answer is twofold: They really only want themselves back and Eloise created the protocol for the return, because she knows the most about how this works.

Widmore and Ben only care about themselves. The island is like a girlfriend they're fighting over. And Locke, who has proved himself again and again to be wishy-washy, insecure, and a bit inept, was their ticket back. They each know the island wants Locke back so they are using him. Look how he fell for each of their passionate case-pleading, in turn.

But maybe the reason Ben went ahead with the "let's get the O6 back also" is because Eloise must've told him that replicating that flight as closely as possible, with the O6 as passengers, was the only way. So he really doesn't care about anything else but creating the best possible odds to get his own butt back on the island.

BUT (again) neither Ben nor Widmore is putting enough stock in the island itself. They want the island just to beat the other at the game. But Locke is the only one of the three who truly cares about the island, and the island knows it.

And what the island wants, the island gets. We have seen repeatedly how the island manipulates situations to its own end. Widmore and Ben, if they start a war over her, aren't going to know what hit them. The island has Locke and it has the Losties, if they listen to him (and who wouldn't listen to the resurrected?). And maybe they have the new socks that crashed with them on flight 316, maybe they don't- we'll see.

Merch, GREAT post outlining each point and listing the lies!

Good question Brotha Jefe. This is the crux of the debate, I believe. It's clear that Ben is bad. It's clear that while Widmore did probably want Ben extracted/killed, Widmore is also responsible for the contents of the secondary protocol, which was "kill everyone". So he's bad, too.

I hate the emerging revelation here that our Losties are pawns, that is so sad.

BUT, our Losties are good. The island is good (well, the jury's out on the island's pet Smoky, but let's just call that guard dogging). Locke is good, despite his insecurities.

So, back to the question "Why do they want the 06 back on the island?"

I think the answer is twofold: They really only want themselves back and Eloise created the protocol for the return, because she knows the most about how this works.

Widmore and Ben only care about themselves. The island is like a girlfriend they're fighting over. And Locke, who has proved himself again and again to be wishy-washy, insecure, and a bit inept, was their ticket back. They each know the island wants Locke back so they are using him. Look how he fell for each of their passionate case-pleading, in turn.

But maybe the reason Ben went ahead with the "let's get the O6 back also" is because Eloise must've told him that replicating that flight as closely as possible, with the O6 as passengers, was the only way. So he really doesn't care about anything else but creating the best possible odds to get his own butt back on the island.

BUT (again) neither Ben nor Widmore is putting enough stock in the island itself. They want the island just to beat the other at the game. But Locke is the only one of the three who truly cares about the island, and the island knows it.

And what the island wants, the island gets. We have seen repeatedly how the island manipulates situations to its own end. Widmore and Ben, if they start a war over her, aren't going to know what hit them. The island has Locke and it has the Losties, if they listen to him (and who wouldn't listen to the resurrected?). And maybe they have the new socks that crashed with them on flight 316, maybe they don't- we'll see.

Merch, GREAT post outlining each point and listing the lies!

Thanks. Great post yourself.

If the island is choosing a suitor, or knows which one of the men fighting over it is the good one, could Richard ultimately be seen as a good person as well?

We can assume he had a hand in ousting Widmore and Hawking, he ousted Ben when Ben seemingly got sidetracked, but also because once Locke arrived Richard knew it was Locke Time. The island as a girl almost makes Richard like the good friend who fixes the island up on blind dates, hoping to create a lasting spark :biggrin:

Maybe.

Miles only looks out for Miles so I doubt he would chime in either way.

The thing is Keamy is the bad guy here. Let's look at it and see. Faraday, Naomi, Charolette, Miles and Lapidus were all sent in first. None of them had any intention of killing anyone. Keamy only did that and as shown, he doesn't mind killing anyone because he killed the Captian and said he would kill everyone on the boat if Lapidus didn't fly him back to the island. I really cant think Widmore planned to have Keamy kill the boat captian? For what purpose. Also it was Keamy who planted the dead man's trigger. Why would Widmore set that up. Cause then there would be no way to get off the island and he wanted Ben alive, not dead.

Also the secondary protocol of torching the island was only said by Ben. According to Keamy the secondary protocol was to find out where Ben would go if they were after him. I am pretty sure Keamy never said anything about torching the island in the secondary protocol.

I completely agree. I think Keamy went rogue after Ben unleashed Smokey. Widmore's goal was to take Ben alive. Primary protocol: Ben at the barracks, Disable the Tempest. Secondary Protocol: Get to the Orchid before Ben , so he doesn't move the Island.

3. If Ben was in perfect communion with Jacob why on earth would Jacob ask Locke to help him. Also why would he say it so Ben could not hear him. Also why would Ben tell Locke basically, lets see if Jacob can help you know? I'm not saying he was in perfect communion with him, but some of his reaction could be that of seeing himself as a failure, frustrated at his failure. And still I don't see Jacob's plea definitively read as "Help me escape from Ben".

More info, more questions. Really seems to be gathering a head of steam for the final conflict/battle/outcome no? What a wild episode. I can't wait to watch it again.

I'm not saying he was in perfect communion with him, but some of his reaction could be that of seeing himself as a failure, frustrated at his failure. And still I don't see Jacob's plea definitively read as "Help me escape from Ben".


But why ask Locke for help? WHy not Ben? Or why not both? If Ben is supposidly the only other person who talks to Jacob, then why when someone new comes in the only thing Jacob says is help me to Locke so Ben can not hear it.

Thanks. Great post yourself.
The island as a girl almost makes Richard like the good friend who fixes the island up on blind dates, hoping to create a lasting spark :biggrin:

Maybe.

Hee, Richard is a pimp! :eek2:
All he needs is a big hat, a fur, and some bling to go with his rumored guyliner. :biggrin:

Good question Brotha Jefe. This is the crux of the debate, I believe. It's clear that Ben is bad. It's clear that while Widmore did probably want Ben extracted/killed, Widmore is also responsible for the contents of the secondary protocol, which was "kill everyone". So he's bad, too.

We don't know that Widmore wanted to kill everyone, the secondary protocol never stated to kill everyone. It stated to go to the Orchid. Keamy was the one who went crazy after Ben unleashed Smokey. All Widmore wanted was Ben captured alive.

Maybe Locke had a connection with the island/jacob that was more intune than Ben. Jacob may not have been able to ask Ben for help because Ben wouldn't hear him. Locke comes to him, special and with out an bias or personal agenda, able to hear help me because Locke has the potential to actually help him.

Ben is too consumed with being leader at that point for him to be able to commune with Jacob and really hear Jacob's needs. Maybe.

Maybe not.

Thanks for the correction Todd. So do we know what the purpose of going to the Orchid, in that case?

More info, more questions. Really seems to be gathering a head of steam for the final conflict/battle/outcome no? What a wild episode. I can't wait to watch it again.

I know, this episode was awesome! I can't wait to get home and watch it in HD, I was stuck watching it on a crappy hotel TV. See if I can pick up on any easter eggs!

Maybe Locke had a connection with the island/jacob that was more intune than Ben. Jacob may not have been able to ask Ben for help because Ben wouldn't hear him. Locke comes to him, special and with out an bias or personal agenda, able to hear help me because Locke has the potential to actually help him.

Ben is too consumed with being leader at that point for him to be able to commune with Jacob and really hear Jacob's needs. Maybe.

Maybe not.

That doesn't make sense because Ben was talking to Jacob the entire time in the cabin.

The other I have is his snid comments to Locke after he shoots him about seeing if Jacob can help you know. We know Jacob is the head boss. Hee obviously wants Locke to be there alive on the island. yet Ben tries to kill him and mocks him telling him Jacob can;t help him know. It seems really out of place if Ben is working for Jacob and he's this great man Ben proclaims he is.

Maybe Locke had a connection with the island/jacob that was more intune than Ben. Jacob may not have been able to ask Ben for help because Ben wouldn't hear him. Locke comes to him, special and with out an bias or personal agenda, able to hear help me because Locke has the potential to actually help him.

Ben is too consumed with being leader at that point for him to be able to commune with Jacob and really hear Jacob's needs. Maybe.

Maybe not.

Either way, Ben is definitely consumed with being the leader. Could be why he can't commune with Jacob/the Island anymore. Could also be the reason he developed cancer on the Island.

Either way, Ben is definitely consumed with being the leader. Could be why he can't commune with Jacob/the Island anymore. Could also be the reason he developed cancer on the Island.


Also the reason richard told Locke him and some of the others(I think this means the older ones from widmore's time) want Ben out of the leadership role.

That doesn't make sense because Ben was talking to Jacob the entire time in the cabin.

Was he though? Or was he just faking for Locke's sake? Could explain why Ben was so shocked Locke heard a voice, because Ben wasn't really talking to anyone. This is still a mystery to me.:shrug:
100%
Thanks for the correction Todd. So do we know what the purpose of going to the Orchid, in that case?

My assumption is because Widmore knew if they didn't get Ben the first time then Ben would go to the Orchid to move the Island. So going to the Orchid was twofold, prevent Ben moving the Island and also capture Ben.

Was he though? Or was he just faking for Locke's sake? Could explain why Ben was so shocked Locke heard a voice, because Ben wasn't really talking to anyone. This is still a mystery to me.:shrug:

I agree- Ben was faking. And his plan to shoot Locke was hatched at the moment he realized Jacob spoke to Locke.

Richard implied Jacob spoke to him, back in 1954 (he knew "what HE wants"). So Ben certainly couldn't have faked ever hearing Jacob at all, could he? I wouldn't put it past him.

Well now I'm really confused about whos bad & whos good. Didn't Ben say that he could never go back to the island once he left. It also didn't appear that Ben was suppose to go back considering he didn't flash off the plane like the others.

I think they're both equally bad because they're wanting to use the Island for their own ends. This is what makes Locke special. He just loves the Island. Period. He could have used some advice about how to approach the O6 and what to tell them beside he's important. They don't care about that at all.
I agree with Merch's Widmore characterization and all the characterizations of Ben. They've been spot on.
I noticed neither man mentioned Jacob and I think that's a huge omission on both their parts. Jacob doesn't really want Widmore or Ben back on the Island. He wants Locke and Jack to lead the Island natives in order to restore the balance there.

What did Christian tell Locke to do this time?

Seek out a woman called Eloise Hawking. It didnt say go talk to Widmore and it didnt say go talk to Ben. Both Ben and Widmore are obsessive. The islands favor is given to Locke, they are just trying to manipulate what isnt and shouldnt be manipulated because they both have ulterior motives and the island has turned its back on them.

Who is good out of Ben and Widmore? Neither...if we consider the island as the prize and a war will ensue over it, itll be a war between Widmore and The Others.

I argue with myself about this. But looking at Ben's history and how untrustworthy he seems to be and is then I would say at this point that he gets my vote as being the bad guy.

Holy Basil! Widmore and Ben were both so very convincing about their concerns for the island, it's verrrry difficult whom to believe. The older Charles' demeanor is much more calculated and subdued compared to how he was when he was, as he said, 17yo, and a hot head. But I have to remember the snapping of the neck of his fellow inhabitant in 'Jughead'. Ben is more manipulative than Charles, but something was definitely triggered when Locke mentioned Jin being alive and especially at the mention of Eloise Hawking. There is definitely a history there that we aren't aware of yet. Hopefully, that will be revealed. Ooh, that should be a good one.

They're both bad guys and both out for themselves! I really hated Ben in this ep he really proved who he is really out for which is himself.

They're both bad guys and both out for themselves! I really hated Ben in this ep he really proved who he is really out for which is himself.

Exactly, and Widmores just a wolf in sheeps clothing.

Widmore and Ben are both evil. However, I believe in the coming "war" that Charles spoke of Ben's adgenda will prevail and it will be the correct agenda. Only Locke is good.

To be honest, this episode didn't really change my perception of either of them. I suppose Widmore came out looking like "the good guy," but, in my eyes, they both remain..shall we say, ambiguous.

Locke might be a little obsessive, Widmore might be quasi-evil, but Ben is full on evil. I've never doubted that. Ben's tried to kill Locke twice now in cold blood. AInt no way aroud that.

If Christian represents the wishes of the island and he told Locke to visit Hawking to get back to the island,then I have to go with Widmore being the on the side of right.

At least for now.

Well, Abaddon works for Widmore and Abaddon was the one who got Locke on the Island. We've been shown many, many times that Ben lies, I mean does he ever speak the truth? Plus Ben has done some despicable things. Ben tried to kill John once and now has succeeded in killing him.

Widmore on the other hand has done some pretty bad things, but has he been shown to lie? Other than on the Island have we caught him in a lie? Widmore just seems more trustworty, but that may mean nothing.

As for the freighter, Widmore did send it, and his instructions were to get Ben. I think the C4 and torching the Island were Keamy's idea. That dude was psychotic, but Widmore did hire him, so he probably knew what he was getting in Keamy.

I think it's really the lesser of 2 evils.

I agree with you. Widmore sending the freighter people did not bother me because Abaddon said that they believed flight 815 was found somewhere in the Sunda trench. As far as Widmore was concerned there were no 815 survivors so everyone on the island had to be regarded as friends of Ben. Widmore knows Ben will do anything possible to further his own desires so he sends in a dogs of war mercenary team. The very type of group necessary to capture someone as ruthless as Ben Linus.

Widmore also sent in a group of scientists to stop Ben from killing everyone on the island by shutting down the gas production. In the Other Woman, Ben sent Harper to tell Juliet to stop Charlotte and Daniel from deactivating the gas. That would seem to say Ben wanted to keep the ability to gas everyone on the island.

One thing that always bothered me was Ben saying Widmore had placed the Oceanic 815 plane in the trench. I knew that no human being with all the money in the world could have set that plane down in that trench the way they found it. But Ben was quick to blame Widmore. Either he knew Widmore did not do it and wanted to be able to use the information to make Widmore look bad or he himself was manipulated into believing that Widmore did it and he is being used as much as he uses Locke.

I agree about Ben lying all the time but we haven't seen Widmore lie except as a young man on the island. Although he did kill one of his own people and the lie protected him from the killing an other rule. Maybe someone found out and that is why he was exiled? I also think that we've seen him behave badly towards Desmond but other than being a father who doesn't happen to like his daughter's choice in men, I don't find his actions all that devious. Yes, he sent the freighter to the island but I've already explained my thoughts on that. He is unlike "lying" Ben Linus whose every act seems conniving and sadistically evil. Widmore does seem to be the lesser of two evils.

posts #38 and 40 above mine sum it up so beautifully. I can only add a huge ITA.

also:
in all honesty, i think Ben and Widmore are BOTH the bad guy. i don't think either of them can be trusted.

the only good guy is Locke.

Now, I'm a bit biased by my love for John Locke, but I agree that he is the only good man of the 3. I think that is why Richard wants John Locke as the new leader of the Others. He has made some mistakes, but none that came from a place of evil. Just blind stupidity (Boone, The Swan).

Ben is obviously a sociopath. Tonight proved that beyond a shadow of a doubt, imo. "I'll miss you John. I really will." (OJ Simpson to Nicole?)

Widmore is a bit more of a mystery, but I don't think he's a good guy either. He was a jerk in 1954. It doesn't seem that anything has changed that in the years since. His treatment of Desmond shows that he's a putz.
I don't think he sent Keamy to kill anyone- specifically. I think he most likely told him to bring back Ben Linus-No Matter the Cost. If folks happened to die, so be it.
Keamy was a psycho. Widmore certainly didn't tell Keamy to kill the Captain or the Doctor, yet Keamy did those things just because he could. Poor Alex, Rouseau, and Carl. ( a moment of silence)
Bottom line-- I was not only not suprised to see Ben kill Locke-- I predicted it in the Thomas the Apostle thread from the 316 episode! If Widmore kills someone, that won't surprise me either.

The question should probably be who is more evil. Do you go with calm, composed evil in Widmore, or do you go with crazy, unpredictable evil in Ben? Both have manipulated people on and off the island to try and get their own way, but Ben's kill count seems to be ahead. He doesn't care about anyone's safety, so I have to go with Ben for now. But that could change.

Who do we believe. Ben did move the island and looked very upset while turning the FDW at the thought of leaving the island. But we don't know how Ben manipulated Charles to turn the FDW. Did Charles also think he was saving the island too? Yet Charles sent a bunch of mercenaries and C4 to the island to kill everyone. I don't remember there being any effort in NOT killing Locke. Why would Charles want to save Locke now, when he was willing to let Keamy and his men blow him up in the barracks?? And I have never believed a word that comes out of Ben's mouth.

Who is Good and who is Evil?

Okay...not sure if this has been brought up in this particular thread yet, but I think it was pretty obvious why Ben "killed" Locke. Since we first laid eyes on Ben, he's been nothing but manipulative and furthering his own personal agenda. As Locke came down from his suicide perch and started talking, I had a very strong gut feeling that Ben was about to kill him. Reason: To Ben, once he gets what he wants, EVERYONE is expendable (think the Frieghter). He didn't kill Locke because the name Eloise elicited rage in him, but simply for the fact that John had served his purpose. I believe Eloise Hawking was the one clue that he needed to get back to the island and reassert his power there.

This scenario will generate good discussion since, he must've been aware at that point that he would eventually have to bring Locke back to the island to satisfy the situation. That being said, I'm also pretty sure that Ben knew that once Locke was back on the island, he would be reanimated (for lack of a better term).

I think it will be really interesting in the next few episodes how Locke handles the situation when Ben comes out of his "little nap".

Now that I may have lost everyone with that rant, LOL, what do y'all think?

Tonights epi. made me even more convinced that Charles and Ben are in a competition, Ben is the lesser of two evils and John is not really dead because Ben knows he can bring him back to life. Richard said John would have to die and that he did by Bens hand and Ben will bring him back to life or the island will. Ben really is the good guy if he is the lesser.

Tonights epi. made me even more convinced that Charles and Ben are in a competition, Ben is the lesser of two evils and John is not really dead because Ben knows he can bring him back to life. Richard said John would have to die and that he did by Bens hand and Ben will bring him back to life or the island will. Ben really is the good guy if he is the lesser.

There's one thing I do not understand. Everyone says they are both evil in their own ways, as everyone has a dark side. I am not sure if Widmore is the "good guy' , but I trust him for one reason only. He is not trying to get back to the island. He found it with the freighter, he could easily find it with eloise's help, but he doesn't. The question is why? He could easily manipulate Locke into taking him along with him, but he doesn't. It's a question of motivation.

I've gone back and forth about Ben's "goodness" and "evilness." Tonight he really reeled me in though. I was positive that he was expressing two minutes of genuine concern for John when he talked him out of commiting suicide. I thought he had finally turned a corner toward redemption.

I don't think Ben knew how to get back to the island until the moment that John mentioned Eloise Hawking's name and that she was their solution. Then he didn't need John anymore.

Ben is extremely jealous that the island/Jacob have chosen John to lead and taken that role away from Ben so he verbally abuses, beats up or kills him every chance he gets.

And I've thought Charles was evil from the beginning. Abaddon's comment that his job working for Widmore was to ensure that people get to the place they are supposed to be convinces me even more. In the book of Revelation in the Christian Bible the word "Abaddon" means "place of destruction," "the Destroyer," or the "depths of hell." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollyon

I'll probably end up eating crow later on, but I believe Widmore. Abaddon's story fits with getting John to go on the walkabout to end up on the Island. Plus Ben tried to kill Locke after seeing Jacob (not to mention he killed Locke in this episode, although we don't know the why yet). I don't think all those people Ben had Sayid kill were doing anything other than watching, like Widmore said. Not to mention Ben just killed Abaddon. I know girlgoescrazy will flip, bit I think Ben's the bad one!:biggrin:

Forgot to mention, we've seen Ben continually lie and act terrible. All we've seen from Widmore is him acting like a jerk, have we seen him lie, other than when we saw him on the Island briefly?


:biggrin:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :biggrin:

Ok, I promise not to!!! :kiss:

However, I must say, and I know a bunch will roll eyes, that to me the fact that Benjamin murdered John still, and I simply say still, doesn't mean anything. We've seen how much effort he put into taking him back to the Island, he pretty much wouldn't have gone without him, everyone off the Island was about preserving his corpse and bringing him back. if anyone knows how and why Locke's important, that's Benjamin, and he did everything (in)humanly possible to return him, probably because he also had knowledge about "canton rainer", y'know folks...:)

The scene was exceptionally gruesome, and what a phenomenal, tear-shedding performance from both of them. Simply phenomenal, I am still in awe.

OK, back to the subject- I think Benjamin planned on killing Locke the entire time, but WHY, that we don't know. The reason why he executed him after he heard about Eloise is because that's the piece of information he wanted to hear, and then he was "good to go". So, I do think that it is ludicrous to assume that Benjamin "just killed him out of spite/rage/malice", because that is too dumb, given all the circumstances from previous episodes.

All I know is that I agree with the solid arguments that those who don't believe Widmore have presented, one of them being sending the freighter with killers only trained to torture and murder. You can fickle about it as much as you like, but that is true, and at least no one Benjamin's worked with was just there to kill... All of the Others, also allegedly lead by Widmore (oh yes) were never just killers or just torturers or just there to do harm. They had and they have a purpose greater than that, and I don't even see why their ex leader would seek to execute all of them. So, naturally, I unequivocally stick with Benjamin.

i think widmore is the lesser of the two evil, he knows his part in the future of the island, he played with desmond until he joined the sailing contest and seems to have an honest intention in bringing john back to the island after he was resposible for him to go on the walkabout and crashing the first time. his last sentence to john was 'good luck john and godspeed', which i belive will become a major catchphrase among some kind of inner circle of the islands protectors.
ben on the other hand seems to follow his own intentions all the time, beside getting the 06 back to the island, he himself wanted to get back and obviously couldn't without them.

i bet on widmore as one of the 'good guys' in the endgame.

Am I the only one that thought it was pretty clear cut?

Ben didn't want Locke to die yet. He needed information. There were two points of revelation:

1. When he found out that Jin was alive and Locke had the ring. That's how he'll ring in Sun, someone that has known ties with his arch enemy (Widmore) and has gone all Lady Vengeance.

2. When he heard the name Eloise Hawking. He knew who she was and that she's in LA and that someone from the island (whether it be Christian or Richard) gave Locke that name and those particular instructions. Ben needed Locke alive so he could get that info to see what the next step would be.

Ben has been watching all of the 6 for years, just to have the pawns in place if and when the time would come for Ben to take down the King. Now that he has the information to get to the next step, he no longer needed Locke. He took him out because he is a threat to the throne and Ben knows this. If Ben just wanted him dead, he would have let him kill himself.

I feel that there is still semblance of a bigger picture for Ben. When he said that he would miss Locke, it felt genuine. But I feel with what we have right now, this is the most plausible scenario.

I think he actually said that he will miss him because he believed he was the one who couldn't go back to the Island. He always knew he had to bring Locke back too, aaand that Locke had to die. Think about that, guys.

Am I the only one that thought it was pretty clear cut?

Ben didn't want Locke to die yet. He needed information. There were two points of revelation:

1. When he found out that Jin was alive and Locke had the ring. That's how he'll ring in Sun, someone that has known ties with his arch enemy (Widmore) and has gone all Lady Vengeance.

2. When he heard the name Eloise Hawking. He knew who she was and that she's in LA and that someone from the island (whether it be Christian or Richard) gave Locke that name and those particular instructions. Ben needed Locke alive so he could get that info to see what the next step would be.

Ben has been watching all of the 6 for years, just to have the pawns in place if and when the time would come for Ben to take down the King. Now that he has the information to get to the next step, he no longer needed Locke. He took him out because he is a threat to the throne and Ben knows this. If Ben just wanted him dead, he would have let him kill himself.

I feel that there is still semblance of a bigger picture for Ben. When he said that he would miss Locke, it felt genuine. But I feel with what we have right now, this is the most plausible scenario.

That's exactly what i was about to post when i spotted this. i think your dead on After. Ben killed him because he got what he needed out of him. Think back to his comment about the other passengers on 316, "who cares", Ben simply does not care about anything or anyone unless they can help him get his agenda of getting back to the island done.

Im still holding judgement on who's really the bad guy and who's good between ben and widmore but im betting that the war widmore refers to is going to be one with multiple sides now. Ben vs Widmore vs Locke the 3 leaders of the island at war with each other and it will come down to who the O6. others and left behinders side with. That is assuming the O6. others and left behinders dont form up together to make up their own side.

I can't completely drop the feeling that Ben might be on a path to redemption, though this episode makes in much harder to entertain. Barring that, Ben is definitely the more evil of the two. We don't know a lot about Widmore, but it would be nearly impossible for him to top the things that Ben has done. I am inclined to think that both Widmore and Ben knew that Locke had to return to the island dead, and so both would have killed Locke as soon as they had gotten the info re Eloise from him, as they both probably want to use him as their ticket back to the island.

After this episode it seems a lot more likely to me that the "promise to an old friend" from the last episode was Penny. But maybe that's just what TPTB want me to think. :undecide:

I hope against hope that Ben isnt the evil one, there is evidence but for and against but i think at the moment more against. I mean he didnt know that Locke had to die and it seemed once he got the information about what he had to do next he thought that he could take John's place just like he did when he moved the island. Im dissapointed that all signs now point to Ben being evil :mad:.

But that said Widmore it seemed was in charge of the others before Ben and Ben said that he did not initiate the purge as it wasnt his decision.

However Emerson himself did say that the writers are going to play with the good/ bad side of Ben this season to play with the audience. please let him be good in the end!

Neither?

To me it looks like some people on board Oceanic 815 died because of their involvement with Widmore... the captain and other passengers could have died because the Island (via the smoke Monster) knew of their intentions.

And Widmore could suffer the same faith if he returns... maybe the mercenaries were supposed to blow up the machine that's controlling the smoke monster and allow Widmore to go back.

Oh, I just remembered. Another reason why Ben is evil. Pretty sure he killed Nadia to get Sayid to work for him. I know some people thought this back in season four, but this episode pretty much solidifies it for me in my own mind. I don't see why Widmore would have interest in killing Sayid's wife. Ben has a huge investment in having Sayid go Mr. Vengeance on everyone by being manipulated. Don't think Sayid knows that Ben was behind it; if he did, Ben wouldn't be alive.

I've always held out hope that Ben would be able to redeem himself, but I don't see it anymore. This show has done a good job of making the audience switch it's perception of good and bad. Well they succeeded again because I think I might officially be on Widmore's side now.

Widmore sent Keamy & Crew to the island to kill everyone and bring back Ben. Seems pretty evil to me. I think Ben will come up with an explanation why he had to kill Locke (twice). "The island demanded it" or something like that. Locke will buy it, for sure.

Ben on the other hand is evil too. Remember what he did to the Dharma-people?

There's something I'm failing to understand after watching the Ep...

Widmore told Locke he wanted him to go back to the Island, Ben also wants him to go back to the Island and they both say they're the good guys. Maybe Ben and Widmore are both bad or both good with a bit of history between them. We know Ben really did bring him back to the Island so there are two conclusions we can make, Widmore was sincere (making them both on the same side really) or he wasn't (Widmore is the bad guy and wanted Locke killed so that he couldn't go back). If that's the case why couldn't he kill him in that Tunisian makeshift hospital while he could ?

Imagine if they're ex-allies waging war against a third person... not so far-fetched.

He was going to remove Ben so Locke could lead. Do we know he was going to kill everyone?

He was going to remove Ben so Locke could lead. Do we know he was going to kill everyone?

I forgot about that discussion they had, you're right. But Ben wasn't and isn't going to lead when he's back on the Island, Richard met Locke before Ben, something tells me Rich will never answer to Ben again.

And Widmore should know that, he was around when Locke showed up in the past. He wasn't saying the truth then... they both have the same agenda but Widmore would prefer to have Ben eliminated for personal reasons.

Oh, I just remembered. Another reason why Ben is evil. Pretty sure he killed Nadia to get Sayid to work for him. I know some people thought this back in season four, but this episode pretty much solidifies it for me in my own mind. I don't see why Widmore would have interest in killing Sayid's wife. Ben has a huge investment in having Sayid go Mr. Vengeance on everyone by being manipulated. Don't think Sayid knows that Ben was behind it; if he did, Ben wouldn't be alive.

Now I'm all for blaming Ben for every evil thing that happens on this show, and after that episode I thought Ben had Nadia killed, but from what we know now, it would be next to impossible for Ben to have been behind the Nadia murder. Ben arrived in Tunisia after turning the FDW without knowing that Sayid even got off the Island. So I don't think there was any time for him to have planned anything. Ben saw an oppurtunity when he discovered Nadia was dead, to recruit Sayid. I think the whole story about Widmore's man killing Nadia was another lie.

Widmore sent Keamy & Crew to the island to kill everyone and bring back Ben. Seems pretty evil to me. I think Ben will come up with an explanation why he had to kill Locke (twice). "The island demanded it" or something like that. Locke will buy it, for sure.

Ben on the other hand is evil too. Remember what he did to the Dharma-people?

As has been discussed previously in this thread, there is nothing that says Widmore was planning to kill everyone other than Ben's word, which we know is not very trustworthy. Widmore's plan was always to capture Ben alive. Primary protocol: Get Ben at barracks, disable the Tempest. Secondary protocol: Get to the Orchid before Ben to prevent the Island being moved, capture Ben.

Remember, it was Ben who wanted the Tempest gas released which would have killed everyone. It was Daniel and Charlotte (sent by Widmore) who disabled it. Keamy was the one who went crazy and decided to take matters in his own hands. Widmore always wanted to capture Ben and have Locke lead.

I've been back and forth a few times on who truly has the islands best interests at heart, and I've swung back to Ben being the evil one. I don't know why the mere mention of Eloise's name drove him to murder Locke, but I'm sure we'll find out soon enough. Good episode.


Ben has killed to many innocent people to be a good guy IMOP! I am completely against Ben at this point in the show, he can not be trusted. :mad:

LadyLovelyLocke has it right...there both the bad guys.....Locke is the good guy!!!

Ben is definitely the good guy.

- Richard Alpert TOLD Locke he had to die.
- Charles Widmore TOLD Locke he had to live.

I'll believe Alpert over Widmore.

- Locke can't kill anyone, including himself.
- Ben knows this, and knows that Locke needs to die.
- After killing Locke, Ben made sure Locke was brought back to the island, to be resurrected.

I've already posted my opinion in another thread, but yes I am one of those crazy Ben supporters. Yes he has done some very terrible things in the past, but as far the Purge goes, he was the participant not the initiator. (My guess, Widmore was.) Ben's worst flaw is his lack of control of his emotions, which he himself admitted to, and sadly yes, his apathy for the consequences of others in order to get certain things done. But at this point I don't think Ben wants control of the island. I think S4 showed Ben passing on the torch to Locke finallly, because as Ben said the Island just completely screwed him over by him being the leader. It gave him a tumor and let his daughter die, so why the h*ll would he want to lead again after all that? I think with all he suffered, he did overcome his jealousy of John's step up to leadership, because Ben didn''t want it anymore, and that's why pushed he the frozen donkey wheel.

I believe he is helping the 06 (as far as his perceptions go) and John to die, because it was his destiny and Charles didn't want that. So why is he doing all this and returning to the island? Well, to defy Charles's plans and:

To have vengence on The Island itself for killing his daughter. Maybe even to try to prevent her death. (That one's a guess though)

Is he doing it by manipulating people and causing deaths of many people? Yes. That's how Ben works. But we won't know until the endgame in the end if most of what Ben has done was somehow for "the greater good" albeit by brutal and manipulative means, yes. Remember Ben has rules: He doesn't kill (who is in opinion) innocent. With the exception of John, of course, but he recanted that himself. He didn't blow up the freighter because the science team was on it and they were innocent. Widmore's secondary protocol included capturing Ben and "torching the Island" meaning kill all of the others-including Locke.

Ben is definitely the good guy.

- Richard Alpert TOLD Locke he had to die.
- Charles Widmore TOLD Locke he had to live.

I'll believe Alpert over Widmore.

- Locke can't kill anyone, including himself.
- Ben knows this, and knows that Locke needs to die.
- After killing Locke, Ben made sure Locke was brought back to the island, to be resurrected.

Until I came into work this morning, I didn't think about the suicide theory and had my mind made up that Ben was pure evil. Now, after your post and some additional thinking, I'm about 60/40 Ben being the good guy. A couple of things we'll need to know by the end of this season:

1.) Who is Christian Shepard working for? Is he truly speaking for Jacob? Does Ben know who Christian is?

2.) Are Ms. Hawking and Widmore in cahoots? I got the feeling, that up until the time period of last night's episode, Ben didn't know about Ms. Hawking. He probably knew that they wanted to send Locke back alive, but Ben knew he had to die. Now, he is working with Ms. Hawking covertly.

3.) Are the people, Ceasar and Ilana working for Widmore? We've seen Widmore trying to get people to the island (Freighter). If that's the case, did Hawking and Widmore work together to get these other survivors on the island for the war?

I'm so confuse. Last night I thought the episode was really weak...but this morning...reading all these theories is really helping to shape up some doubts I had.

If this was *just* a personal feud between Chuck and Ben over a tract of land I'd say they both deserve the worst, but to me, the stakes appear to be much higher than just control over the Island. The "war" Chuck speaks of could be interpreted to have universal implications. Fate of the world stuff. If so, then any collateral damage might be a small price to pay to achieve the "greater good." Someone else, even beyond Hawking is pulling the strings though.

I think they are both "evil" in their own way. I was starting to feel a bit more positively about Ben until this episode. It seemed to me that once he heard about Eloise Hawking, he had the information he needed and Locke was disposable. I don't think he killed Locke in anger. He found out what he needed to know about getting back to the island (and getting the O6 back there) and could wipe his hands of him.

Of course, there is the chance that Ben knew that Locke needed to die to make this whole thing come together.

I think they are both "evil" in their own way. I was starting to feel a bit more positively about Ben until this episode. It seemed to me that once he heard about Eloise Hawking, he had the information he needed and Locke was disposable. I don't think he killed Locke in anger. He found out what he needed to know about getting back to the island (and getting the O6 back there) and could wipe his hands of him.

Of course, there is the chance that Ben knew that Locke needed to die to make this whole thing come together.

Yeah, it was interesting how Ben's demeanor changed after he heard Jin was alive and that Locke had direction to see Hawking. Ben's constantly jockeying to put himself into a position to stay ahead of the curve, so IMO, he viewed these developments as an opportunity to get back in the game. I really do get the feeling he's flying by the seat of his pants here.

I am still leaning toward Ben being the good guy.

If Locke is suppose the be the ultimate "Good Guy", much like Jesus, then to commit suicide is a sin. Thus making Locke no longer the "Perfect" man.

What I also don't understand is who Mrs. Hawking is working with. She seems to be allied with Widmore, yet she then works with Ben to orchestrate the O6's return.

Definitely something about hearing her name seemed to make Ben snap.

I just had an idea but didn't have time to check the whole thread yet.

What if Ben was supposed to kill John and hearing Hawkings name confirmed to Ben that he could proceed with his job. What if when Ben entered the room he thought John was going to die "too early" but after Ben learned what John had seen/heard/knew....it was OK to kill him. The presence of the gloves and the cleaning supplied leads me to think that he was prepared to kill someone eventually.

(Or this could be the pointless ravings of a madwoman.)

I know it sounds elementary but I think both off them are the bad guys. Both are battling for control of the island but I think in the end neither will actually control it.

I am thinking that Ben is bad. When Eloise Hawkings told Jack that he was probably lying about knowing about the Lampost, it seemed that was another reference to not believing what Ben says. There seems to be many references that indicate Ben is evil, but when Locke mentioned Eloise's name and then killed Locke, I thought, he has to be bad.
Plus Ben banished Whidmore from the island, and it seemed that was done for evil purposes because Whidmore said for 3 decades they peacefully protected the island. Seems when Ben shows up all that insues is chaos.
Who knows though, this is Lost.

I was thinking before tonight Widmore was the bad guy and Ben (in his words) was the good guy. Even with all his manipulation I still felt Ben had a greater good to his mission. But now that he murdered Locke upon hearing the name of Hawkings I'm not sure.

The impression I got was that Ben was playing Locke when he talked him out of suicide. He was only fishing for as much information as he could get out of him and had planned on killing Locke all along. Ben has had strong hints of jealousy towards Locke, plus he lied to Jack about not knowing that he "commited suicide".

PS- if you're on the Widmore-is-a-good-guy train: Consider that Hurley doesn't trust Abbadon and Hurley is goodness and light, so to speak.

WOW!! This is the best observation yet of the whole Widmore vs Ben!! Yet, Hurley also ran from Ben too.... Yet it was via Sayid's advice not Hurley's own intuition.

There are many many reasons to hate both Ben and Charles. But, as we have seen several times in Lost, you cannot assume anything until you know all the information about the situation. We thought Kate was bad because she was a fugitive for murder, until we learned her story. Do we know why Ben attempted to shot and kill Locke? Do we know why Ben helped in killing Dharma and his Father? Locke assisted in killing his own father yet we still think of him as a good guy.

The ONLY reason I side with Widmore being Evil is because we do not know of any attempt Widmore made at saving Locke from the Mercenaries killing spree. Yet Widmore claims he is Lockes protector. Yet you could also say all the same for Ben. Ben and Charles seem to be doing pretty much the same Evil. I guess it will all depend on the motivtion behind the Evil.

Who has done more to protect the island??? And protect it from what??

If Ben was trying to preserve Locke's 'perfection', then why did they encourage him to kill his father, and why did he actually kill Naomi?

Widmore also sent in a group of scientists to stop Ben from killing everyone on the island by shutting down the gas production. In the Other Woman, Ben sent Harper to tell Juliet to stop Charlotte and Daniel from deactivating the gas. That would seem to say Ben wanted to keep the ability to gas everyone on the island.

One thing that always bothered me was Ben saying Widmore had placed the Oceanic 815 plane in the trench. I knew that no human being with all the money in the world could have set that plane down in that trench the way they found it. But Ben was quick to blame Widmore. Either he knew Widmore did not do it and wanted to be able to use the information to make Widmore look bad or he himself was manipulated into believing that Widmore did it and he is being used as much as he uses Locke.

I agree about Ben lying all the time but we haven't seen Widmore lie except as a young man on the island. Although he did kill one of his own people and the lie protected him from the killing an other rule. Maybe someone found out and that is why he was exiled? I also think that we've seen him behave badly towards Desmond but other than being a father who doesn't happen to like his daughter's choice in men, I don't find his actions all that devious. Yes, he sent the freighter to the island but I've already explained my thoughts on that. He is unlike "lying" Ben Linus whose every act seems conniving and sadistically evil. Widmore does seem to be the lesser of two evils.

I think the science team was sent because in 1954 Widmore/Hawking met that particular group of people. They had to end up on the island or else it'd create a paradox.

Why would Ben need to lie about the plane? They're on an island that can not be found except by those that know where it is. It's a weak tool to persuade Michael with as well, because Michael wants to redeem himself. All Mike needs to know is that there's a man Widmore with a boat going to the island that's set to kill the people on it.

Widmore behidn the plane makes the most sense because something like that would take time to set up. Before the Swan was blown up, but even afterwards, the island was all but invisible. Ben doesn't need to put it htere to show he's a better guy than Widmore ro that Widmore is bad. That's what Keamy and Team is for.

Plus, shutting down the gas is a strategic move. Widmore's fighting a battle wiht Ben, in order to render the enemy impotent, you take away everything you can from them.

We don't know who sent Harper, despite what she said. Can we really trust someone who disappears after delivering the message? I don't think it was Ben as Ben was locked in the basement of his house.

My impression also was that 99 percent of what Widmore said to Locke was a lie.

:biggrin:
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :biggrin:

Ok, I promise not to!!! :kiss:

However, I must say, and I know a bunch will roll eyes, that to me the fact that Benjamin murdered John still, and I simply say still, doesn't mean anything. We've seen how much effort he put into taking him back to the Island, he pretty much wouldn't have gone without him, everyone off the Island was about preserving his corpse and bringing him back. if anyone knows how and why Locke's important, that's Benjamin, and he did everything (in)humanly possible to return him, probably because he also had knowledge about "canton rainer", y'know folks...:)

The scene was exceptionally gruesome, and what a phenomenal, tear-shedding performance from both of them. Simply phenomenal, I am still in awe.

OK, back to the subject- I think Benjamin planned on killing Locke the entire time, but WHY, that we don't know. The reason why he executed him after he heard about Eloise is because that's the piece of information he wanted to hear, and then he was "good to go". So, I do think that it is ludicrous to assume that Benjamin "just killed him out of spite/rage/malice", because that is too dumb, given all the circumstances from previous episodes.

All I know is that I agree with the solid arguments that those who don't believe Widmore have presented, one of them being sending the freighter with killers only trained to torture and murder. You can fickle about it as much as you like, but that is true, and at least no one Benjamin's worked with was just there to kill... All of the Others, also allegedly lead by Widmore (oh yes) were never just killers or just torturers or just there to do harm. They had and they have a purpose greater than that, and I don't even see why their ex leader would seek to execute all of them. So, naturally, I unequivocally stick with Benjamin.

I don't think it didn't mean anything, but once Locke mentioned Hawking's name, that clued Ben in to something, imo. If Widmore is directing Locke to find Hawking to return to the island, then Widmore must want John alive. If Widmore wants John alive, then that can't be a good thing.

From Ben's perspective, Widmore is the badder bad guy. Ben just gets done talking Locke out of the noose, before Ben could have possibly put two and two together and come up with Widmore wanting Locke alive. At that point, Ben can't just change stance and talk Locke back into the noose.

With out knowing it, he helped Locke accomplish what Alpert told him to do. And like was posted below, I'll believe Alpert over Widmore anyday. Alperts still connected to the island. Widmore is exiled.

I'm really starting to believe that Ben's playing his cards close to his chest because if he shared what he knows, it might change the outcome. Or Ben thinks it might. Similar to Desmond and his flashes, and what he told Charlie.

We won't be shown Ben's true motivations until as close to the end as possible. After a brief shock and awe period, I still think he's a gooder :biggrin: guy than Widmore.

Neither?

Maybe:cool:

There's something I'm failing to understand after watching the Ep...

Widmore told Locke he wanted him to go back to the Island, Ben also wants him to go back to the Island and they both say they're the good guys. Maybe Ben and Widmore are both bad or both good with a bit of history between them. We know Ben really did bring him back to the Island so there are two conclusions we can make, Widmore was sincere (making them both on the same side really) or he wasn't (Widmore is the bad guy and wanted Locke killed so that he couldn't go back). If that's the case why couldn't he kill him in that Tunisian makeshift hospital while he could ?

Imagine if they're ex-allies waging war against a third person... not so far-fetched.

Widmore doesn't kill Locke because Locke is Widmore's only connection to the island. Widmore's been exiled, his own word, which means he's out of the loop. He doesn't know why Alpert told Locke he had to die because he's no longer in the know as an other.

And if Alpert had a hand in ousting Widmore, then it stands to reason that Widmore is going to do the opposite of what Alpert wants.

Ben is definitely the good guy.

- Richard Alpert TOLD Locke he had to die.
- Charles Widmore TOLD Locke he had to live.

I'll believe Alpert over Widmore.

- Locke can't kill anyone, including himself.
- Ben knows this, and knows that Locke needs to die.
- After killing Locke, Ben made sure Locke was brought back to the island, to be resurrected.

I don't know if Ben's a white knight, but I will definitely side with Alpert.

Alpert's still on the island. Widmore isn't. Alpert is still in favor on the island. Widmore isn't. If Alpert says you have to die for the island, I'm gonna believe him over Widmore too.

I am thinking that Ben is bad. When Eloise Hawkings told Jack that he was probably lying about knowing about the Lampost, it seemed that was another reference to not believing what Ben says. There seems to be many references that indicate Ben is evil, but when Locke mentioned Eloise's name and then killed Locke, I thought, he has to be bad.
Plus Ben banished Whidmore from the island, and it seemed that was done for evil purposes because Whidmore said for 3 decades they peacefully protected the island. Seems when Ben shows up all that insues is chaos.
Who knows though, this is Lost.

Ben was in no position to initiate any kind of banishment from the island on Widmore. By Widmore's timeline, three decades after meeting Locke Widmore spent with the others protecting the island. Tha'ts 1984.

A plan to oust Widmore had to have come from Richard Alpert, imo. Ben surely helped, there's no doubt there, but if Widmore was such a swell guy for the island, why didn't Richard bother getting back in touch with him? Especially after Richard soured on Ben's leadership.

I'll tell you why, because Widmore is bad for the island. He's lying. He seems to think that he has some divine right to the island, that it's his. His arrogance would never make him leader material, imo. He see's Ben, an outsider who ascended to lead the others, as an insult against him. Widmore's an islander and they hand the reigns over to a mainlander?

Ben's no saint, but Widmore's a pretty bad guy himself. If he wasn't, then he'd still be on the island with Richard and the others, imo.

Actually the only person who said everyone was to be killed was Ben. Ben said they are here to capture me and kill everyone else. Faraday, Miles, Charolette, Naomi, Lapidus, the frieghter captian, Mincowski never said anything aboput killing anyone. They said they were not there to save the Losties. We only have Ben's word about killing everyone on the island. Also remember Ben tried to get Juliet to kill everyone on the island. Faraday and Charolette were disabling the gas but Ben tried to convince Juliet to stop them which would have released the gas killing everyone.

The facts that we know are that at one time Widmore was an other. Now he's off the island. We also know at one time Ben was an Other and now he's off the island. Although we also know Richard wanted Ben out of the leadership role and Locke to take over. I believe Richard over everyone and if wanted Ben out, that must say something.

Also add to the fact Ben has tried in the past to kill Locke and killed him eventually(Locke never told Ben he had to die, so Ben never knew), just further proves to me
that Ben is evil. As to if Widmore is good, that''s up for debate, but Ben is for sure evil.
100%


Ben was locked in a basement. I'm not on the bandwagon that says Harper was sent by Ben. We have her word for it. Can you really trust the messenger when they disappear with out answering any follow up questions?

Ben may not have known that Richard said Locke had to die. But in hearing Hawking's name, he had to know Widmore was sending Locke to her to help get back to the island. That Widmore wanted Locke alive.

Ben's modis operandi has seemingly been to counter-act or hinder any move made by Widmore. From Ben's perspect Widmore is the badder guy. Widmore's also off the island, exiled. The island/Richard was through with him. I'm sure Ben helped in that, but there had to be some falling out with the others as well.

If Widmore wants Locke alive, I think by default Ben assumes that that's bad for the island. What Widmore wants is bad for the island. Ben just talked Locke out of the noose, now after the Hawking name drop, he comes to the realization that Locke does indeed have to die. Is he that persuasive where he can talk Locke back into the noose? I doubt it. So he kills him, ultimately accomplishing what Richard told Locke anyway.

I agree, I'll trust Richard at this point over either of them. While a murder for sure, Ben did accomplish the goal Richard set for Locke. Not unlike Richard giving Locke Sawyer's file to kill his father. There's different means to the same end and in the end its for the betterment of the island, imo.

But what about:

1. Ben tired to kill Locke by shooting him
2. Ben did kill Locke
3. Ben tried to make it so Locke could not lead the others and only he could
4. Ben killed the Dharma Initative
5. Ben was going to let Juliet die
6. Ben stole the child of a pregnant women
7. Ben captured Jack even though he was not on Jacob's list
8. Ben tried to get Locke to doubt himself and the button
9. Ben convinced Sayid to kill for him
10. Ben ordered Claire to be taken and the baby to be cut out of her, leaving her to die
11. Jacob asked Locke to help him with Ben right there, Why would he if ben is the good guy.
12. Ben kidnapped Walt and experimented on him
13. Ben told Tom if anyone gets in your way of kidnapping the women, kill them.


I could go on and on. How does any of this appear like Ben is the good guy.Ben wasn't ready to let go of the leadership role, but as he said at the mass grave next to Hurley, he should have known it was pointless to try. He eventually did step aside, he moved the island to let Locke lead.

Ben had a hand in the purge and we saw him kill his father, but the others are just as much, if not more, responsible for the killing of Dharma. And if Widmore is telling the truth, and his was the others leader, than it was his plan. Ben said it was their leaders idea in his conversation with Hurley at the mass grave.

He was going to let Juliet die shouldn't be held against him. Would you rather him have stayed in the room and the three of them die? Self preservation shouldn't be held against anyone.

We don't know that Ben specifically stole Alex. If what we know of the timeline is correct, the purge didn't happen until Alex was four. If anyone kidnapped Alex and raised her inside DHARMA, I dont' think it would be the son of a Work Man, a Work Man himself. He may have ended up with Alex, but we don't know for certain he was behind the initial abduction.

Ben had a tumor on his spine. A spinal surgeon fell out of the sky. I wouldn't care that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list either. The math on that one is simple. Tumor on spine = spinal surgeon = no more tumor on spine. Plus, who's to say that Ben shared all of Jacob's information with every member of his posse? Would Pickett really be in a position to know who was on what list and why?

I think Ben and Locke and the button and Ben trying to undercut Locke's potential as future leader are the samething.

Ben's no saint, but I don't think every reason there is spot on.
100%


Back to the Who's the bad guy question: The big mindf**ck of tonight's show for me was: why do Widmore and Ben want the same thing? If they are at odds for their agendas, why do they BOTH want the O6 back?

PS- if you're on the Widmore-is-a-good-guy train: Consider that Hurley doesn't trust Abbadon and Hurley is goodness and light, so to speak.

Excellent point with Hurley.

That is the same question I arrived at too. Since Lockes death ultimately lead the rest of the gang back on a plane to the island and Locke having to die is what Alpert said, and Alperts on the island (and thus in the know on island things) I'm still thinking that Ben served a better purpose, though he murdered Locke, in regards to what the island ultimately needs from our man John.

Widmore wanting Locke alive goes against what Alpert told Locke. Widmore is off the islan, he's no longer an other and I have to think that's not all Bens doing. Richard seems more likely the initiator of getting Widmore (and possibly Hawking) off the island. Though no doubt Ben helped. Alpert represents what the island needs/wants so Widmore is wrong.

Another question would be, is RichardCS/the island manipulating Locke or do they have good intentions?

I'm still trying to wrap my mind around the fact that the Island LET Abbadon die.

Since the Island has brought Locke back to life (and based on this episode, we know for sure that there were no spiders involved in a "fake" death--Locke was dead dead dead for about three days) and the Island allowed Abbadon to die, what does that mean in terms of Chuck and Ben???

Both Chuck and Ben lie--like rugs. Both men want back on the Island. Both are willing to do ANYTHING to get back. Chuck cannot find the Island w/o the O6--and he knows that they have to return since he would remember them being there during the DI time period. Ben cannot find the Island w/o the O6--and he also knows that they have to go back since his childhood was spend w/ the DI that included the O6. Both men know that Locke is the key (oh, sorry--lock/key--the writers were just being too punny in choosing names way back when) to return. Both men want to manipulate the Island so that the Island does their bidding.

But the Island obviously has the Power, not either Chuch or Ben. So what do we do with the fact that the Island let Abbadon die???

They're both bad.
Anyone who wants to keep something as special as that island to themselves is greedy.
They both want it.
They have both been releaved of their leadership by what ever power is actually running it.

I have a feeling the island will dispear for good when the only people left on it are worthy to be on it.

They're both bad.
Anyone who wants to keep something as special as that island to themselves is greedy.
They both want it.
They have both been releaved of their leadership by what ever power is actually running it.

I have a feeling the island will dispear for good when the only people left on it are worthy to be on it.

Yeah, the title of the thread should be who is evil...er.

The impression I got was that Ben was playing Locke when he talked him out of suicide. He was only fishing for as much information as he could get out of him and had planned on killing Locke all along. Ben has had strong hints of jealousy towards Locke, plus he lied to Jack about not knowing that he "commited suicide".

Yes yes yes! I think that Ben didn't know how (exactly) to get back to the island, so he was trying to see if Locke knew how. Once he got the information out of him, he had no other need for him. And we know that Ben has been jealous of Locke. Once he had all the information he needed, why would he leave Locke alive? Ben had no knowledge of Locke having to die in order to get everyone back to the island (that we saw).

They're both bad.
Anyone who wants to keep something as special as that island to themselves is greedy.
They both want it.
They have both been releaved of their leadership by what ever power is actually running it.

I have a feeling the island will dispear for good when the only people left on it are worthy to be on it.

Congrats. In your relatively brief post I think you hit the nail on the head. The "Island" as manifested by Jacob is effectively neutered. It can't name a direct succesor because it doesn't have a "voice." That's where Alpert comes in. Unfortunately, he's been a complete zero with his "nominations" like Ben and Chuck. Perhaps Locke breaks the cycle? Whatever the case, Ben should NOT be back on the Island, and problems will arise now that he is.The same will happen if Chuck somehow makes it back.

Does anyone think that Ben killed Locke because he realized that Locke wouldn't be able to fulfill "his destiny" if he actually killed himself? Something similar happened to Michael at one point. He was trying to kill himself but wasn't able to becuase the island wasn't through with him. Maybe Ben realized this and stopped Locke from killing himself because he still has work to do.

Does anyone think that Ben killed Locke because he realized that Locke wouldn't be able to fulfill "his destiny" if he actually killed himself? Something similar happened to Michael at one point. He was trying to kill himself but wasn't able to becuase the island wasn't through with him. Maybe Ben realized this and stopped Locke from killing himself because he still has work to do.

Tough to say. This scene mirrored the time Ben shot Locke in the DI pit. I wasn't under the impression Ben thought Locke would get out of that pit alive, and I'm not sure he though Locke would recover from being choked to death.

Ben is more important than Widmore. We've seen more of his back story. More of him on the island. He's been a more prominent character. Widmore is the brooding villain in the corner you don't see very often.

Ben is this story's Snape.

They're both pretty bad. They both believe that the ends justify the means. And we have no way of evaluating the moral value of their actions until we know what they are ultimately working to achieve.

Besides, I suspect which one of them is worse won't matter in the end. A theme of this show has been live together, or die alone. In the last season, my bet is that we'll see a third party threat that will force EVERYONE, including Ben and Widmore, to work together to combat it.

I agree with Abbybaby and hugh jasse - To me, Ben's demeanor and facial expression changed upon hearing that Jin was alive.

I wondered about Ben cleaning up the crime scene too though. It's doubtful Widmore packed some latex gloves and a bottle of 409 for Locke.

Now I'm all for blaming Ben for every evil thing that happens on this show, and after that episode I thought Ben had Nadia killed, but from what we know now, it would be next to impossible for Ben to have been behind the Nadia murder. Ben arrived in Tunisia after turning the FDW without knowing that Sayid even got off the Island. So I don't think there was any time for him to have planned anything. Ben saw an oppurtunity when he discovered Nadia was dead, to recruit Sayid. I think the whole story about Widmore's man killing Nadia was another lie.

Good point. I forgot about that. Either way, Ben used Nadia's death to manipulate Sayid into killing for him (which is what Sayid realizes in The Economist).

Now that I think about it, Widmore may have some investment in taking out the loved ones of the people that are supposed to go back. If Nadia ceases to exist, Sayid would have no reason to stay in the real world. I only thought this because Helen is also dead. Could Widmore be behind it?

I think Ben and Charles are both bad. Given the chance, they would have both used John against each other. Ok, im going out on a limb here, but I think kiling John was a last resort for Ben.

I'm down with downtown in that the island would not let Locke kill himself. Mr. Friendly must have tried at one time too as he seemed to really know how to explained it to Michael. I think that Ben has known all along that he would have to kill Locke but was not given the details. I think that when Locke heard Jacob, Ben also heard Jacob telling him that he would have to sacrifice Locke. Ben shoots Locke immediately after but it was not the right moment. I believe that Ben belongs on the island as Christian told Locke that Ben was not supposed to be the one who moved the island. Widmore is the bad guy as he does not respect the island and I think that Richard is actually on the bad side of all of this and it will be Christian/Jacob/Locke vs Widmore/Richard others. I have always felt that it is Richard that is actually keeping Jacob prisoner in the Cabin.

TPTB have been swinging the feeiling towards Ben since we first laid eyes on him.
He has gone from bad to good every season and now I believe they will make us think that he is the bad guy until the end where his true colors will come out. (Sort of like Darth Vader killing the Emperor for one last good deed)......and we know how TPTB like Star Wars.

Jacob to Ben : "Just when I think you can't get any dumber.....you go and do something like this.......AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!"

I'm down with downtown in that the island would not let Locke kill himself. Mr. Friendly must have tried at one time too as he seemed to really know how to explained it to Michael. I think that Ben has known all along that he would have to kill Locke but was not given the details.

It's not just that you can't kill yourself -- you can't be killed until you've completed your work for the "Island," until the "Island" is finished with you. Not only was Michael unable to kill himself, Keamy couldn't kill him (his gun jammed).

Ben tried to kill John at the pit. Jack tried to shoot Locke, no bullets. This time Ben succeeded.

TPTB have been swinging the feeiling towards Ben since we first laid eyes on him.
He has gone from bad to good every season and now I believe they will make us think that he is the bad guy until the end where his true colors will come out. (Sort of like Darth Vader killing the Emperor for one last good deed)......and we know how TPTB like Star Wars.

Jacob to Ben : "Just when I think you can't get any dumber.....you go and do something like this.......AND TOTALLY REDEEM YOURSELF!"

They have done more to keep his character ambiguous than any other character. He was always a liar. If you, like me, inherently don't trust liars, no amount of lipstick (fancy words and character development) will make him look any better, but for some people Emerson's excellent acting, as well as the writers giving Ben humorous quips and evil behavior are just too tempting and they are taken in by it all.

Ben may very well do some ultimate good in the end but he is not good, nor are his actions that of someone who is good whatever that really means. Ben may eventually have what may seem to be legitimate reasons for his evil behavior but his choices and reactions have not been ones I would imagine a person working for good would make.

I was shocked, like everyone else, about Ben's behaviour!
Only thing, if Ben really is bad, and he killed Locke with bad intentions, why try like hell to get Locke's dead body back to the island, knowing Locke is going to get resurected? (sp?)

ben came to kill Locke. where did he get all the stuff to clean up? you don't just go out and buy that. he was prepared. the other thing that no one is thinking is this - ben showed up as locke was ABOUT to kill himself. so - why not just let him do it if it was even a consideration?

there is a reason ben had to do it. i believe he is the good guy.

I have considered that: killing himself would be morally wrong (or something), so Locke could not kill himself. But he "had to die"--therefore, Ben does the killing for Locke. However, Ben had such an evil look on his face when Locke mentioned Eloise. And why is Ben returning to the island? He is not one of the six. He new turning the wheel would mean exile. Ben seems to want/need his leadership back.

It's interesting that he was maimed in the crash, but that none of the people who were "supposed" to be there were hurt.

I think that goes to show the island doesn't want him back — because it didn't take him in the flash but left him on the plane.

Hmmm... Every time I start to think Ben could be good, he screw it over. The scene with Locke and Ben made me lean towards Ben's side, until he killed Locke. Same with Widmore. I liked Widmore as he was pouring the scotch for Desmond, but he too screwed me over when he didn't give one to Desmond.

I'm torn. But I do think they both have bad intensions.

However, perhaps they are each others constants? That's why Ben didn't kill Widmore on the spot in the hotel room, which he is capable of doing. (As we saw in "The life and death of Jeremy Benthem" when Matthew was shot)

Alpert tells Locke he's going to have to die. Not, go out and kill yourself.

Science and Faith have been at the forefront of Lost since it's conception. Science is much easier to integrate into a show because religion is a much touchier subject. A patch work of theoretical sciences is far more benign to a viewer, whether they believe it or not, than a patch work of religions. However, they've hinted at and implied different concepts from different cultures and have done it very subtlely and well, imo.

Locke was going to kill himself. That act is generally regarded by most doctrines to be one of the worst kinds of sin. If he does that, does he taint the chance at resurrection on the island?

Here's a scenerio to think about. Ben kills Locke, preventing Locke from suffering the likely consequences from killing himself. Namely being unworthy of resurrection. Locke's hands are clean in the matter, and he's stays on his path to rebirth, reincarnation and fulfillment of whatever it is the island/fate/god has in store for him.

Ben, in keeping Locke on that path, will suffer the consequences of his actions. Even if by killing Locke he's helping the island/fate/God whatever. Locke's sins and past transgression are forgiven in his rebirth because he's special, he's the chosen one, he's a needed quantity for the betterment of those around him.

Ben chooses to damn himself so that Locke may fulfill his destiny. Is that not a greater sacrifice than Locke's? Ben's tallying up quite the negative karmic bill, but who else is there to make these choices? If indeed this is what's going on, Ben's sacrificing his own souls well being by assuring Locke doesn't condemn himself.

Of course, having said that, Ben still didn't want things to be like this. He didn't want Locke to supplant him and he didn't want to leave the island, but ultimately I think his time as the island's head honcho imbued in him a caring for the place. A desire to protect it. To keep it safe.

I've always been interested in how the Ben/Widmore/Richard saga plays out, but especially after this episode....if I could flip to the end of the series and see how it all comes out, I would. Curiousity, at this moment, would get the better of me.

In short, Ben will be punished for his actions; Ben knows it and makes the choices anyway, condemning his own soul so that John may rise up and realize his destiny.

disclaimer: subject to change depending on mind blowing-ness of any upcoming episodes :cool:

I'm guessing Locke died because the Island wanted him to die, just like Richard and CS said. Locke could have died in the car crash, I'm guessing he could have died in Tunesia from a possible infection of the broken leg(still shuddering from that sight), but he didn't die until Ben strangled him.

Ben seems to think he is a good man, doing what's best for him and the Island. Widmore is sort of the same way, he thinks he's a good guy and doing what's best for the Island. They both did horrible things, they both killed people(remembering the ease with which Widmore killed that soldier, I think it wasn't his first time killing another man, and I doubt it was his last).

They're both bad.
Anyone who wants to keep something as special as that island to themselves is greedy.
They both want it.
They have both been releaved of their leadership by what ever power is actually running it.

I have a feeling the island will disappear for good when the only people left on it are worthy to be on it.


and THAT is the one of the most awesome, and intriguing sentences I've read since this epi aired!

I think both are evil

I don't think Ben knows that Locke will be resurrected by the Island, and it isn't going to make him happy... but Ben is doing what Jacob wanted him to do... and Richard defers to whoever is leader.

Ben is selfish and doesn't want to give up his position as leader of "his people"... these are all the same people whom Widmore and Ben both claim as theirs. I think the greater war that is coming is different from the battle between Widmore and Ben... that one is personal. Ben got rid of Widmore unfairly... but if Widmore had wanted to regain his leadership, it seems that he would have been on the Freighter, but he wasn't.

Widmore is definitely with the Others who believe that Locke is special enough to best protect the Island... while Ben seems to want to prove otherwise and keeps failing.

This reminds me of Abaddon's..."There are no survivors of Flight 815." Was part of Widmore's goal to try and wipe them out or to see who the Island let live? To see if it was possible to kill Locke?
Ben tells Locke to stay close to him, because the mercs won't risk killing Ben... but what if Locke wouldn't have been able to die anyway due to his specialness or the fact that the Island still needed him?

Widmore believed that Locke fell prey to Ben's manipultions to leave the Island and yet was waiting for Locke or someone else to arrive... there were no cameras when Ben arrived. How could he have been so sure that Locke or anyone else would show up after Ben? Because he knows that when the wheel is turned, it must be turned again to set it back on its axis... and he knows this because he was the one who turned the wheel after the polar bear.

Widmore's claim to Locke is that he has been misunderstood and that's Ben's fault. I guess the question is... when the war comes is it really a good thing that John is on the Island?

I think that the answer to whom is truly good or evil is going to come down to the final episodes.

Ben:
If you look at Ben's entire story arc you see how you can be swayed from one extreme to the other... like, I remember in S4 when he's at the barracks... You think he's the scum of the earth and then 2 episodes later you find yourself crying with him when Alex is killed.

The actor is fabulous and the character is one in a million. Whether you love him or hate him, you have to admire him! :)

Widmore:
I find Widmore to be much less of a gray area. We've seen him manipulate Penny and Desmond time and again. When we see him in 1954 the guy kills his companion and then trots off to the Others' camp.

Locke was going to kill himself. That act is generally regarded by most doctrines to be one of the worst kinds of sin. If he does that, does he taint the chance at resurrection on the island?

I've been wondering if suicide might actually be a prerequisite for resurrection in the Underworld-dominated religion of the Others. We don't know exactly what The Temple houses, or even whether it is a temple in the religious sense...but in my book, any place with an underground smoke monster as a guardian has got to be a little bit twisted. Abaddon (and thus Widmore by association) certainly seemed to be pushing Locke toward suicide by piling on the pressure with each successive failure, and then essentially suggesting that John take matters into his own hands. And Eloise had absolutely no problem with the idea that Locke had offed himself. I'm thinking that Ben is the only one who has any desire to keep John out of the evil clutches of Richard and company.


In short, Ben will be punished for his actions; Ben knows it and makes the choices anyway, condemning his own soul so that John may rise up and realize his destiny. I agree. No wonder Ben was so PO'd in the van when Jack and Sun couldn't wrap their head around the sacrifice he had made to keep them safe.


Ben is selfish and doesn't want to give up his position as leader of "his people"... these are all the same people whom Widmore and Ben both claim as theirs. I think the greater war that is coming is different from the battle between Widmore and Ben... that one is personal. Ben got rid of Widmore unfairly... but if Widmore had wanted to regain his leadership, it seems that he would have been on the Freighter, but he wasn't.

Widmore is definitely with the Others who believe that Locke is special enough to best protect the Island... while Ben seems to want to prove otherwise and keeps failing.

I agree to a certain extent, simone. The war will involve more than a personal grudge match between Ben and Charles. But ever since he turned the FDW, I've sensed that Ben has been willing to defer his leadership role. Both Ben and Widmore at this point seem to have some inside information that John is destined to return to the island as a leader. The behind the scenes manipulation we saw in this episode, IMO, was more about determining John's role in the upcoming war than anything else. I'm on board with Merch that Ben's intervention in Locke's suicide attempt may turn out to be the turning point in the battle we are about to witness.

After reading all the great observations on this thread, I can only think of one way that Ben could be a Good Guy:

Ben has shown a complete and utter lack of respect for human life. Not only is he willing to participate in the Purge, he could care less if the Freighter gets blown up or if Flight 316 crashes with innocent people on board.

Maybe he knows that none of that matters because time can be changed or altered, and those people may yet live again, depending on the outcome of future Island/Jacob conflict.

Of course, he was upset that his adopted daughter was killed, but maybe thats because she died under the wrong circumstances at the wrong time.

Other than some kind of weird time travelly explanation, I can't see any way Ben could be on the side of niceness, goodness and light.

I don't trust either of them

I don't trust Ben and Widmore. Locke I do trust cause he seems to have the island's best interest at heart. I think Ben killed Locke because Ben wanted all the power and glory unto him.

Alpert tells Locke he's going to have to die. Not, go out and kill yourself.

Science and Faith have been at the forefront of Lost since it's conception. Science is much easier to integrate into a show because religion is a much touchier subject. A patch work of theoretical sciences is far more benign to a viewer, whether they believe it or not, than a patch work of religions. However, they've hinted at and implied different concepts from different cultures and have done it very subtlely and well, imo.

Locke was going to kill himself. That act is generally regarded by most doctrines to be one of the worst kinds of sin. If he does that, does he taint the chance at resurrection on the island?

Here's a scenerio to think about. Ben kills Locke, preventing Locke from suffering the likely consequences from killing himself. Namely being unworthy of resurrection. Locke's hands are clean in the matter, and he's stays on his path to rebirth, reincarnation and fulfillment of whatever it is the island/fate/god has in store for him.

Ben, in keeping Locke on that path, will suffer the consequences of his actions. Even if by killing Locke he's helping the island/fate/God whatever. Locke's sins and past transgression are forgiven in his rebirth because he's special, he's the chosen one, he's a needed quantity for the betterment of those around him.

Ben chooses to damn himself so that Locke may fulfill his destiny. Is that not a greater sacrifice than Locke's? Ben's tallying up quite the negative karmic bill, but who else is there to make these choices? If indeed this is what's going on, Ben's sacrificing his own souls well being by assuring Locke doesn't condemn himself.

Of course, having said that, Ben still didn't want things to be like this. He didn't want Locke to supplant him and he didn't want to leave the island, but ultimately I think his time as the island's head honcho imbued in him a caring for the place. A desire to protect it. To keep it safe.

I've always been interested in how the Ben/Widmore/Richard saga plays out, but especially after this episode....if I could flip to the end of the series and see how it all comes out, I would. Curiousity, at this moment, would get the better of me.

In short, Ben will be punished for his actions; Ben knows it and makes the choices anyway, condemning his own soul so that John may rise up and realize his destiny.

disclaimer: subject to change depending on mind blowing-ness of any upcoming episodes :cool:



i completely agree with you on this. you just said it alot more eloquently that i could have. :)

I think your dead on with Widmore trying to piggyback his way to the island via Locke. What is confusing to me is that they both seemed to think that off island dead is dead? Widmore said he would do everything he could to make sure Locke didn't die and Ben seemed pretty confident that Locke was dead when he left Locke hanging from the beam. Do they not know about Christian Shepard?

I don't think they know about Christian Shepard.


...
Yet Ben said "I'll miss you John". Why would Ben say that if he thought Locke would be resurrected? Or does Ben not know that?

I think Ben will be surprised when he sees John walking around on the island. He may claim that he knew all along that John would rise from the dead and therefore he didn't really "kill" him, but I think in the hotel room Ben was under the impression that he was killing John for good. His "I'll miss you John" was not said for anyone else's benefit, so I think we can take his statement at face value.

Good post, Merch! While Ben is definitely not a good guy, I don't think Widmore is either. Both their motives seem selfish, and like Desmond said, they are just using all the 815 survivors as pawns. I think the good guys are going to end up being Jack and Locke and co.

I agree 100% Zoe, well put!


I believe both are evil. Christian Shepard, presumably representing the island, gave Locke very specific instructions which both Charles and Ben contradicted. For example, both of them at least claimed they didn't want John to die, even though John said he would need to die.

Yep, neither of them really knows what the island wants.


...
BUT, our Losties are good. The island is good (well, the jury's out on the island's pet Smoky, but let's just call that guard dogging). Locke is good, despite his insecurities.
....
BUT (again) neither Ben nor Widmore is putting enough stock in the island itself. They want the island just to beat the other at the game. But Locke is the only one of the three who truly cares about the island, and the island knows it.

And what the island wants, the island gets. We have seen repeatedly how the island manipulates situations to its own end. Widmore and Ben, if they start a war over her, aren't going to know what hit them. The island has Locke and it has the Losties, if they listen to him (and who wouldn't listen to the resurrected?). And maybe they have the new socks that crashed with them on flight 316, maybe they don't- we'll see.
!

i think it could shape up this way -- the Losties fight on behalf of the island, perhaps against both Ben and Widmore, neither of whom seem remotely deserving of the island's favor (IF the island is even good!)


...
I noticed neither man mentioned Jacob and I think that's a huge omission on both their parts. Jacob doesn't really want Widmore or Ben back on the Island. He wants Locke and Jack to lead the Island natives in order to restore the balance there.

Agreed!

I agree with Abbybaby and hugh jasse - To me, Ben's demeanor and facial expression changed upon hearing that Jin was alive.

I wondered about Ben cleaning up the crime scene too though. It's doubtful Widmore packed some latex gloves and a bottle of 409 for Locke.

Locke was in a hotel. Any janitor's closet would have rubber gloves and a spray bottle of generic cleaning stuff.

i don't think either is "good". i think they are both misled. but if one is worse than the other, i'd say ben.

They both remind me of Sirrus and Achenar from the original Myst games. The more you find out about either one, the less likely you are to have any amount of trust in either of them. Yet they both vociferously proclaim their own innocence while decrying the other repeatedly.

Ben's the bad guy I think, I always was thinking this.

They both remind me of Sirrus and Achenar from the original Myst games. The more you find out about either one, the less likely you are to have any amount of trust in either of them. Yet they both vociferously proclaim their own innocence while decrying the other repeatedly.

You're exactly right, SF!! I really like that analogy!