Exiled: to banish or expel from one's own country or home

In Widmore's words he protected the island, with his people, for three decades after Locke's visit. Until he was exiled by Ben. Widmore tells Locke he was the others leader.

1) There's no way he was the others leaders. As Richard said, they have a very specific process for that selection. Something that looks like it starts very young. Widmore was seventeen. At the time. I don't buy it.

2)Ben was not in a position to exile Widmore, not after three decades. Not in 1984. Ben was still a work man, albeit one who had plans of breaking out of Dharma with the help of Richard. If anyone exiled Widmore, it was Alpert possibly with the help of Ben, but not solely Ben.

Question: Could Alpert be playing Ben against Widmore? Using Ben as a smoke screen when in actuality he was the one who ousted Widmore? What do you think of Widmore's I'm here to help you attitude? I think it's bogus and that he was lying through his teeth.

I distrust Widmore more after this episode and have again taken a couple steps back after seeing Ben kill Locke. WTH is going on?

Exiled: to banish or expel from one's own country or home

In Widmore's words he protected the island, with his people, for three decades after Locke's visit. Until he was exiled by Ben. Widmore tells Locke he was the others leader.

1) There's no way he was the others leaders. As Richard said, they have a very specific process for that selection. Something that looks like it starts very young. Widmore was seventeen. At the time. I don't buy it.

2)Ben was not in a position to exile Widmore, not after three decades. Not in 1984. Ben was still a work man, albeit one who had plans of breaking out of Dharma with the help of Richard. If anyone exiled Widmore, it was Alpert possibly with the help of Ben, but not solely Ben.

Question: Could Alpert be playing Ben against Widmore? Using Ben as a smoke screen when in actuality he was the one who ousted Widmore? What do you think of Widmore's I'm here to help you attitude? I think it's bogus and that he was lying through his teeth.

I distrust Widmore more after this episode and have again taken a couple steps back after seeing Ben kill Locke. WTH is going on?
He also said that Ben tricked him.

My original thought after seeing this epi was that Widmore was the Leader of the Others and he was exiled by the manipulation of Ben.

I still believe that Widmore was the leader just as Ben was the leader...Richard is the advisor to the man in charge, but as seen in Jughead was the leader (if we assume that Jacob was the person that he referred to when he said he takes orders from someone. For all we know there was another leader at the time just as Widmore was and Ben was *and Locke for 2.5 seconds lol*, but I digress)

I also will take something from the OP in that Richard was just as much a part in Widmore's exile as Ben was and Widmore wants to get back at Richard also.

Everything can be a good Theory until its Proven Incorrect.:biggrin:

I do think Ben had a hand in Widmore's expulsion from the island, but I don't think he was in a position to initiate it.

Going by Widmore's math. After meeting Locke in 1954, he spent three decades defending the island. That puts the year up 1984. If the purge is twelve years minus 2004 (the twelve years coming from Horace Goodspeed in Cabin Fever from last year) then that means it happened in 1992.

Ben wasn't in any kind of leadership position in 1984.

Again, I agree he had a hand in getting Widmore out, but it seems to me like Richard was the orchestrator behind such a move. Also, if Widmore was the leader of the others and was outted by Ben, and then later, Richard is displeased with Ben's leadership, why doesn't Richard bring Widmore back into the fold?

"Hey Widdy, old buddy, yea, how you doing? Look, having a little problem with the guy we had replace you. I know, I know, we were stupid, what can I say? I really didn't think he'd keep us working on this pregnancy thing for this long. What do you say about coming back? Sort of like old times? Twice your old pay rate and paid medical. Yea, fully paid medical. Whaddya say?"

Widmore, probably Hawking as well, had some sort of falling out with Richard or there'd still be contact, there'd still be a pipeline to the island, there wouldn't be a need to find it again on Widmore's part.

I think 99 percent of what Widmore told Locke was a lie, someway or another.

I think he might have somehow initiated the Purge. Ben was just a player - we only saw him kill his Dad, right ?

Why couldn't widmore have been the Other's leader? Richard said the process starts at a young age. That does not mean those people start leading at a young age. It means they are monitored at a young age to see if they are worthy to lead. So far the only two leaders we have seen have been Ben and Locke and both men took over as leader as older men and after being on the island a while. Its more than possible Widmore was being watched by Richard for the leadership role but did not assume said role well into his 30's. Which would easily sync up the timeline issues you brought up. Plus, would we really believe if Locke went to Alpert special school as a child he would lead the Other's as a small child?

Is obvious Richard does not need to play anyone against anyone else as a smoke screen. Its been evident the Other's will all do what Richard tells them. So if Richard wanted Widmore off the island he would just make it happen and everyone would follow him.

Yeah, I never got the impression that the violence against Dharma was necessarily Ben's idea, I think he just had the ability to facilitate it from the inside. Richard approached Ben about being a spy for them, not the other way around.

I think it's important that Widmore said that they defended the island "peacefully" prior to Ben. Did Widmore seem like a peaceful guy when we saw him in 1954? Not to me. I think the most likely scenario is that Widmore, if he ever was the leader at all, was the brains behind the purge but didn't realize that their inside man was being groomed as his successor.

However, I have my doubts that he was ever in power at all. The violent streak we saw in him in Jughead just doesn't seem like "leader of the Others" behavior to me.

Maybe Widmore went off island to defend it out in the real world and then Ben talked Richard into moving the island and not telling Charles where it was.

Cardie

Maybe. Ben did seem to be on the guest list there in that hotel near the exit, as Widmore called it.

My scenerio is Widmore was the one who wanted to initiate the purge, Richard and Ben went along with it, ultimately blindsiding Widmore off the island himself, while executing his original plan to purge Dharma. Richard was distinctly lacking from this episodes major player list, as was Hawking.

They all got mentioned though, at some point.

The one thing we know for sure about this show is that nothing is ever clean cut. The ongoing theme is good vs. evil, but the problem is that the two often blur the battle lines. I don't know that we'll ever know for sure who the good guy in the Ben/Widmore feud, because I think they're both pretty bad dudes. Or just guys that will do whatever it takes to protect the one thing they hold dear, the island.
I do trust Widmore slightly more than Ben for now. Ben has been trying to get himself back to the island all along, Widmore has been apparently trying to get the O6 back. They're both jerks, and both liars, but Ben seems to have that pure evil streak in him that we just haven't seen from Widmore yet.

They're both jerks, and both liars, but Ben seems to have that pure evil streak in him that we just haven't seen from Widmore yet.

Let's not forget Widmore snapping Cunningham's neck.

I do think Ben had a hand in Widmore's expulsion from the island, but I don't think he was in a position to initiate it.

Going by Widmore's math. After meeting Locke in 1954, he spent three decades defending the island. That puts the year up 1984. If the purge is twelve years minus 2004 (the twelve years coming from Horace Goodspeed in Cabin Fever from last year) then that means it happened in 1992.

Ben wasn't in any kind of leadership position in 1984.



But Ben is back on the island now, at a time when the DA is still around. Maybe this "future Ben" is the one who manipulates a younger Whidmore in to turning the FDW.

But Ben is back on the island now, at a time when the DA is still around. Maybe this "future Ben" is the one who manipulates a younger Whidmore in to turning the FDW.
I don't think Ben is in the past. We saw that Kate, Hurley and Jack were flashed off the plane onto the Island in the past. He did not get flashed off the plane. It appears that he is on The Hydra in 2008 or whatever time is the Islands real time. So he isn't going to be seeing Widmore in the past unless the Island goes wonkers again..

Widmore is lying about a lot, but I think he is telling the truth that he was exiled, but not by Ben.....

A couple of points:

1. "We protected the island, peacefully, for more than 3 decades."
I don't think Widmore indicated when this 30+ year time period started when he said this.
Remember, young Widmore was confident in his knowledge about the island, "What, you think he knows this island better than I do?" indicating that he had been on the island for a long time.

Also Widmore's definition of "peaceful" doesn't seem right because we learned about now the others killed a military brigade in the 50s. It sounded like the soldiers fired at the others first, but the response from Richard and company was anything but peaceful.

2. Ben and Eloise are working together
Eloise has Locke's letter and gave it to Jack last episode. Obviously the letter had come from Ben because we saw Ben kill Locke.

3. Young Widmore didn't seem to respect Eloise much
He snaps at her telling her to shutup back in episode Jughead.

4. Ben had no idea that Eloise was Daniel Faraday's mother
Ben met Daniel last season, but he seemed genuinely shocked when Desmond mentions that he is in LA looking for Daniel Faraday's mother.

5. Richard was definitely running the show in the 50s. Widmore could not have been the leader.

Based on the dialogue between Richard and Widmore, I can't see Richard ever putting Widmore in charge of anything. Widmore is hot tempered, arrogant, etc.. I can't see Richard ever following Widmore, even if Jacob told him to..

6.Widmore doesn't know how to get back?
Since Eloise obviously does know how to get back to the island using Dharma equipment, It seems that Eloise and Widmore are on the outs. If Widmore wants to locate the island so badly, can't he just work with Eloise to go back? Ben said that once you turn the FDW to move the island, you cannot go back to the island, but clearly he does go back. Why can't Widmore?



I think there are rules that Widmore must abide by for some reason (e.g. he cannot go back to the island ever, etc.,etc.), so to get Ben, he had to send in the commando unit to extract him.

I have had this itchy feeling that locke is not replacing Ben. I originally thought he was replacing Richard and that Jack is supposed to be the actual leader. Now with the reincarnation aspect, he may be replacing jacob/christian. For some reason, I have always thought that Jack, not locke , was meant to lead.

Just a few comments on some of your points. I have whole theory but I won't post it here.
Widmore is lying about a lot, but I think he is telling the truth that he was exiled, but not by Ben.....
He may have been exiled by all of the Hostiles as they were called back then but I believe he said that Ben tricked him into turning the FDW and that is how he ended up leaving the Island.

5. Richard was definitely running the show in the 50s. Widmore could not have been the leader.
Richard was an advisor to the leader that was explained in the enhanced episode of Jughead. It could have been Jacob or some one else that was the leader at that time but it wasn't Richard.

Based on the dialogue between Richard and Widmore, I can't see Richard ever putting Widmore in charge of anything. Widmore is hot tempered, arrogant, etc.. I can't see Richard ever following Widmore, even if Jacob told him to..
Ben has been proving that he is also quite ruthless.
6.Widmore doesn't know how to get back?
Since Eloise obviously does know how to get back to the island using Dharma equipment, It seems that Eloise and Widmore are on the outs. If Widmore wants to locate the island so badly, can't he just work with Eloise to go back? Ben said that once you turn the FDW to move the island, you cannot go back to the island, but clearly he does go back. Why can't Widmore?

I think there are rules that Widmore must abide by for some reason (e.g. he cannot go back to the island ever, etc.,etc.), so to get Ben, he had to send in the commando unit to extract him.
I think Ben might have been lying about this too. He's back on the Island, well technically he is on The Hydra but he is back. He might know of a way to get back that Widmore isn't aware of. That might involve bringing back a dead person that the Island wants.

Again, I agree he had a hand in getting Widmore out, but it seems to me like Richard was the orchestrator behind such a move. Also, if Widmore was the leader of the others and was outted by Ben, and then later, Richard is displeased with Ben's leadership, why doesn't Richard bring Widmore back into the fold?
I'm inclined to believe what Widmore said. It makes perfect sense, and confirms the sort of thing I had suspected had gone on. Widmore was the leader of the others (after having gone through the selection process that begins at an early age). Ben orchestrated one of his trademark cons, and tricked Widmore into turning the donkey wheel in 1984. Thus Ben exiled Widmore. Richard had his eye on Ben since he was a boy, and now with Widmore out of the way Ben is free to ascend to the position of leader, which he does by the time of the purge 8 years later. Thus, as Widmore told Ben, "everything you have, you took from me." Makes perfect sense. Now the two are at each other's throats trying to be the one to use John and/or the O6 as their ticket back to the island.
100%

6.Widmore doesn't know how to get back?
Since Eloise obviously does know how to get back to the island using Dharma equipment, It seems that Eloise and Widmore are on the outs. If Widmore wants to locate the island so badly, can't he just work with Eloise to go back? Ben said that once you turn the FDW to move the island, you cannot go back to the island, but clearly he does go back. Why can't Widmore?
Both Ben and Widmore know Eloise. Neither of them knew that she knew the secret to getting back to the island. Only Christian new that, and Christian told Locke. Only after Locke confided that to Ben, did Ben know, whereupon Ben killed him, and went to Eloise to get the 70 hour window. Perhaps if Locke had confided that to Abadon, Abadon would have killed him as well.

Exiled: to banish or expel from one's own country or home

In Widmore's words he protected the island, with his people, for three decades after Locke's visit. Until he was exiled by Ben. Widmore tells Locke he was the others leader.

1) There's no way he was the others leaders. As Richard said, they have a very specific process for that selection. Something that looks like it starts very young. Widmore was seventeen. At the time. I don't buy it.

2)Ben was not in a position to exile Widmore, not after three decades. Not in 1984. Ben was still a work man, albeit one who had plans of breaking out of Dharma with the help of Richard. If anyone exiled Widmore, it was Alpert possibly with the help of Ben, but not solely Ben.

Question: Could Alpert be playing Ben against Widmore? Using Ben as a smoke screen when in actuality he was the one who ousted Widmore? What do you think of Widmore's I'm here to help you attitude? I think it's bogus and that he was lying through his teeth.

I distrust Widmore more after this episode and have again taken a couple steps back after seeing Ben kill Locke. WTH is going on?

1.) Widmore wasn't the leader when he was 17. He was being groomed by Richard to be the next leader. We don't know how long Widmore was on the island before 17. He could've been born there or Richard brought Widmore to the island when he was young, while not telling him why he was on the island. Similar to how Richard saw Ben as a boy, but told him it was not his time yet to join the others. Ben probably never knew he was supposed to be leader until Jacob told him he was special.

2.) He said he was the leader for 3 decades. We do not know when he became leader of the others.

I don't believe Alpert is playing Ben. Alpert is a messenger for Jacob. Jacob chose Widmore than chose Ben and is now choosing Locke. That is why Alpert did everything to help Locke get accepted by the others.

Let's not forget Widmore snapping Cunningham's neck.

I think he did that because he was trying to protect his people from intruders...like the Losties. Cunningham was about to tell them where to find his people and considering Locke just killed 2 of them, I think 1 casualty---Cunningham was for the greater good. Does that make sense?

I actually think Chuck is telling the truth here, but that doesn't neccesarily make him a "good" guy. I agree with whoever said that Chuck served a function similar to Ben-a leader, but not the intended *the* leader. We know that a sure way off the Island is to turn the wheel, so it's likely Ben manipulated Chuck to do that. Chuck clearly believes he can't return to the Island as is, so he's trying to pull some strings to do that. Did he want to to do Ben as Ben did to Locke?

So if Widmore wasn't leader at 17 and he lead the Others for 30 years wouldn't that mean Penny was born on the island?

So if Widmore wasn't leader at 17 and he lead the Others for 30 years wouldn't that mean Penny was born on the island?

That would seem to be the case. IMO, this was one of the most revealing bits in this ep. Chuck had been on the Island a lot longer than I thought. Alpert was right: Ben had to be patient because there already was a leader in place: Widmore!

But Ben is back on the island now, at a time when the DA is still around. Maybe this "future Ben" is the one who manipulates a younger Whidmore in to turning the FDW.
I don't think Ben's in the same time period as jack and Kate and Hurley.

The quality of that Hydra Island office/station looked pretty disused. The DI has come and gone for Ben and that group on Hydra island.

Also, isn't that building they show the same one where Ben and Alex had a scene in season three? I forget which episodes but it had to be early in season three, when they were on Hydra Island, before Ben's surgery. I'm pretty sure it is.

Widmore is lying about a lot, but I think he is telling the truth that he was exiled, but not by Ben.....


Based on the dialogue between Richard and Widmore, I can't see Richard ever putting Widmore in charge of anything. Widmore is hot tempered, arrogant, etc.. I can't see Richard ever following Widmore, even if Jacob told him to..




I think Ben did have a hand in tricking Widmore off the island, I just don't think it was his idea. Richard seems a better candidate to put out that idea. Widmore and Hawking are both off the island, which seems to say they had a falling out with their people, the others, which would mean a falling out with Richard.

Ben wasn't in a position of power with the others until after the purge, which makes me think that Widmore was exiled before that.

I can't see Richard every putting Widmore in charge either, but Rabidranger puts out an interesting point on the matter.


6.Widmore doesn't know how to get back?
Since Eloise obviously does know how to get back to the island using Dharma equipment, It seems that Eloise and Widmore are on the outs. If Widmore wants to locate the island so badly, can't he just work with Eloise to go back? Ben said that once you turn the FDW to move the island, you cannot go back to the island, but clearly he does go back. Why can't Widmore?


This is an interesting point and it makes me put the brakes on an assumption I was starting to run with, that Hawking and Widmore had to be in cahoots. Obviously if she's keeper of the Lamp Post and the Lamp Post can find the island's location, then it stands to reason that Widmore should have been able to descend unto the island long before the freighter.

We have Henry Gale in a Widmore Industries Balloon, but that seems more a recon mission than an invasion. Could the Swan and it's EM induced snow globe bubble have prevented the Lamp Post from zero-ing in on the island?

After Dharma finds the place, they build the Swan and rehide it so like minded people can't ever find the island again, only them. Too bad they didn't know they were going to get purged out of existence. That might work and it would keep the possibility of a Hawking/Widmore alliance intact.

I'm inclined to believe what Widmore said. It makes perfect sense, and confirms the sort of thing I had suspected had gone on. Widmore was the leader of the others (after having gone through the selection process that begins at an early age). Ben orchestrated one of his trademark cons, and tricked Widmore into turning the donkey wheel in 1984. Thus Ben exiled Widmore. Richard had his eye on Ben since he was a boy, and now with Widmore out of the way Ben is free to ascend to the position of leader, which he does by the time of the purge 8 years later. Thus, as Widmore told Ben, "everything you have, you took from me." Makes perfect sense. Now the two are at each other's throats trying to be the one to use John and/or the O6 as their ticket back to the island.
100%

Both Ben and Widmore know Eloise. Neither of them knew that she knew the secret to getting back to the island. Only Christian new that, and Christian told Locke. Only after Locke confided that to Ben, did Ben know, whereupon Ben killed him, and went to Eloise to get the 70 hour window. Perhaps if Locke had confided that to Abadon, Abadon would have killed him as well.


Ben had a hand in it, I'm in agreement there. I just don't think Ben was behind the idea's conception. If Richard wasn't the orchestrator of such a coup, then why wouldn't Richard go along with it? At the very least they came up with the scheme together. And as of now, Richard seems more trustworthy than either Widmore or Ben.

If Richard was in agreement that Widmore needed to be removed from the island, then that in itself suggests Widmore isn't good for the place.

Charles came across to me, especially in that early peak at his teenage years, like he believes he has a divine right to the island. That since he's an islander and Ben's basically a mainlander, that it's an insult and a disgrace for Ben to ascend to Island Leadership.

Like it's a birth right to be leader of the others and Ben took that from him.

As hard as it is to make anything of this next tidbit, the two leaders of the others that we know of, Ben and Locke, are both main landers, so to speak. Neither of them were promoted from the others to the head of the table.

They came from outside the island. I don't know how accurate a conclusion can be drawn from just two leaders when we don't know how many there have been or where those unknowns may have come from, but it's suggestive in it's limited view, that Widmore could never have been leader of the others, seemingly have been born on the island.

That second paragraph also throws into turmoil the Hawking Widmore alliance I was striving to strengthen :cool: It does make some sense though. She could be keeping secrets from Widmore, just as she's seemingly keeping secrets from Ben. i.e. Ben not knowing Faraday was her son.

She's smart enough to be her own side in the matter.

That would seem to be the case. IMO, this was one of the most revealing bits in this ep. Chuck had been on the Island a lot longer than I thought. Alpert was right: Ben had to be patient because there already was a leader in place: Widmore!

That's intriguing as a possibility. Ben can't come to the dance because there's already someone dancing with his girl. That girl being the island, and the beau being Widmore.

I am looking forward to more young Ben later this season. That episode should be chock full of some key bits as well.

Charles came across to me, especially in that early peak at his teenage years, like he believes he has a divine right to the island. That since he's an islander and Ben's basically a mainlander, that it's an insult and a disgrace for Ben to ascend to Island Leadership.

Like it's a birth right to be leader of the others and Ben took that from him.

As hard as it is to make anything of this next tidbit, the two leaders of the others that we know of, Ben and Locke, are both main landers, so to speak. Neither of them were promoted from the others to the head of the table.

They came from outside the island. I don't know how accurate a conclusion can be drawn from just two leaders when we don't know how many there have been or where those unknowns may have come from, but it's suggestive in it's limited view, that Widmore could never have been leader of the others, seemingly have been born on the island.
We don't know that Widmore was born on the Island. The only thing we know is that he was on the Island at 17 and had been on it for an unspecified amount of time. He could have been brought to the Island at 10 and spent 7 years. To a 17 year old 7 years seems a long time.

He did say to Locke something along the lines of "they're others to you John, but they're my people".

That leads me to think he's a natural islander, not an implant.

But you're right, we don't know definitively and can't rule out that he arrived as a little kid. My feeling is he was born there though, based on his conversation with John. I'd be ncie to get a little more on him this season, to sort of balance out the information we already have on Ben. A little more on Richard would be great too.

Ben had a hand in it, I'm in agreement there. I just don't think Ben was behind the idea's conception. If Richard wasn't the orchestrator of such a coup, then why wouldn't Richard go along with it? At the very least they came up with the scheme together. And as of now, Richard seems more trustworthy than either Widmore or Ben.

If Richard was in agreement that Widmore needed to be removed from the island, then that in itself suggests Widmore isn't good for the place.
I have to agree that that would fit with events as well. It's not how Widmore paints it, but Widmore could have a distorted view, laying all the blame on Ben. However, to me it fits more with Ben's character, and Ben's traditional MO, that Ben as just some devious rising star Others lieutenant, and saw Widmore as the only obstacle to him ascending to the leadership position; so Ben orchestrates a long con to make Widmore think he has to turn the wheel. He may have even conned Richard in the process. Also, I think Richard is the one who does the selecting. If he Richard wanted to replace Widmore, I think he could probably just do it. No need to "fool" him into anything. Recall how Richard and the rest of the Others ignored Ben's orders to intercede when Locke started beating Mikhail to a pulp.

They came from outside the island. I don't know how accurate a conclusion can be drawn from just two leaders when we don't know how many there have been or where those unknowns may have come from, but it's suggestive in it's limited view, that Widmore could never have been leader of the others, seemingly have been born on the island.
My assumption would be that it doesn't really matter where you're born, only that the selection process must begin at an early age... sort of like becoming a Jedi.

What if you can only get back to the Island as you originally got there, unless becoming a proxy. I'm talking about those that turn the donkey wheel. Maybe Widmore's interest in Locke was in his being the proxy for Christian, therefore his wanting to protect Locke and all the O5 so that he could go back and be resurrected like Locke was. What if Ben figured it out and killed Locke so he could go back as Locke's proxy. It stands to reason that Widmore could easily have been on the boat he sent if it was that easy to get back to the Island.

When we are told that Widmore has been searching for the Island for 30 yrs, I don't think that is entirely correct. I think he has been searching for the right set of circumstances that would enable him to return. I think that Ben beat him to the punch again. I also think that Ben did either kill Penny or hurt her which changed Widmore's plans of being on the plane with the 05.

He did say to Locke something along the lines of "they're others to you John, but they're my people".

That leads me to think he's a natural islander, not an implant.

But you're right, we don't know definitively and can't rule out that he arrived as a little kid. My feeling is he was born there though, based on his conversation with John. I'd be ncie to get a little more on him this season, to sort of balance out the information we already have on Ben. A little more on Richard would be great too.
Locke said the same thing to Sawyer about Jones/Widmore in Jughead.

SAWYER: Are you crazy? What where you thinking? Why didn't you shoot him?
LOCKE: Because. He's one of my people.

If Widmore were born on the island, I don't think he'd have a British accent.

Cardie

There you have it. Unless by some chance Widmore's (and Ellie's as well, she's a brit) parents were folded into the others by being on some Jacob List, there's a good chance they weren't born on the island.

NBC also nice point. Locke seems to think he's they're all one people now too, since he's in charge. Well, for the four days he's in charge. That's gotta be some kind of record...

Exiled: to banish or expel from one's own country or home

In Widmore's words he protected the island, with his people, for three decades after Locke's visit. Until he was exiled by Ben. Widmore tells Locke he was the others leader.

1) There's no way he was the others leaders. As Richard said, they have a very specific process for that selection. Something that looks like it starts very young. Widmore was seventeen. At the time. I don't buy it.

2)Ben was not in a position to exile Widmore, not after three decades. Not in 1984. Ben was still a work man, albeit one who had plans of breaking out of Dharma with the help of Richard. If anyone exiled Widmore, it was Alpert possibly with the help of Ben, but not solely Ben.

Question: Could Alpert be playing Ben against Widmore? Using Ben as a smoke screen when in actuality he was the one who ousted Widmore? What do you think of Widmore's I'm here to help you attitude? I think it's bogus and that he was lying through his teeth.

I distrust Widmore more after this episode and have again taken a couple steps back after seeing Ben kill Locke. WTH is going on?

I think the fact Widmore was so young on the island bolster's his claim. He was likely brought there as a child.

Widmore said Ben fooled him into leaving. The exile being a byproduct of that since he couldn't return.

I get Ben was in on it. All I'm saying is that if it was just Ben, or originated by Ben, than why does Richard 1) go along with it and 2) even if he does go along with it, at the point Ben's leadership grows tiresome for him, why doesn't he reach out to Widmore and bring him back?

Widmore had worn his welcome thin on the island with his people long by the time Ben became a player imo. He was as much outted by Ben as Alpert.

I trhink it comes down to the lesser of the two evils with Ben and Widmore. I think they are both after the same thing.

Just as Richard began grooming Locke at the expense of Ben. I guess he's loyal to the position rather than the man.

People who lose power always want to blame someone else for the loss. I think that WIdmore lost his power because he came to believe the Island was his, the same thing happened with Ben. Richard's alliance is to the Island not the man. Think of it in a religious context. One believes in Christ and if you are Catholic, the Pope. But if the Pope were to try to supercede Christ and take followers down the wrong path then those following who are true believers would replace him with someone whose beliefs are pure, like John Locke.

even if he does go along with it, at the point Ben's leadership grows tiresome for him, why doesn't he reach out to Widmore and bring him back?
It must not be that simple. If it were, why doesn't he "just bring back" the O6? Why must Locke die to do it? Leaving, at least in a certain matter, makes it no easy task to come back. How this reconciles with Richard, Tom, and Ethan being able to come and go as they please, I have no idea. But I'm sure we'll find out.
100%
I trhink it comes down to the lesser of the two evils with Ben and Widmore. I think they are both after the same thing.
And they both claim the same thing. They both claim that they want Locke to be the leader, because he's supposed to be, and they have to prevent the other one from usurping his position.

The hilarious thing would be if they were both actually telling the truth, and both really did want Locke to be the leader, and were battling with each other and killing all these peopple for nothing. But there's no way that's it. As we heard Widmore tell Ben, (paraphrasing) "That island is mine, it always was, and it will be again." That's pretty good proof that Widmore is lying to Locke about being on his side. I guess we can't necessarily rule out yet that Ben is actually helping Locke be the leader, even though he killed him.

I get Ben was in on it. All I'm saying is that if it was just Ben, or originated by Ben, than why does Richard 1) go along with it and 2) even if he does go along with it, at the point Ben's leadership grows tiresome for him, why doesn't he reach out to Widmore and bring him back?

Widmore had worn his welcome thin on the island with his people long by the time Ben became a player imo. He was as much outted by Ben as Alpert.
I agree that both Ben and Alpert were instumental in getting Widmore off the Island. I think Widmore is angrier at Ben and blames him more because Ben is the one who tricked him into leaving the Island.
1. Richard and Ben along with all of the others were in agreement that Widmore had to go so Richard didn't need to go along with anything.
2. Widmore could have done something that Richard and the others felt was so inexcusable that there was no way they would let him be the leader again.

Wow, this is a great thread, a lot of interesting points...

I want to add one more thought that really did not sit right with me...

When Widmore is giving Locke information about the Oceanic 6, right before Matthew Abbadon comes to pick Locke up, Widmore states "..the folder contains your people's whereabouts, everyone who was on the island but left."

I guess my thoughts are that if Widmore was telling the truth to Locke and he REALLY believed that Locke was the chosen one to protect the island and lead the others, then he would fundamentally believe that Locke was the leader of the others and would not refer to the Oceanic 6 as "your people."

In 1984, the polar bear is used to turn the wheel. The wheel goes off its axis causing the Dharmans to TT or CTT... Horace died in 1992, the way Charlotte died in the past.... Widmore was sent to put the wheel back on its axis... and was transported to the exit...

Widmore doesn't watch for Ben to arrive... but he is waiting for whomever has to correct the wheel and put it back on its axis.

It must not be that simple. If it were, why doesn't he "just bring back" the O6? Why must Locke die to do it? Leaving, at least in a certain matter, makes it no easy task to come back. How this reconciles with Richard, Tom, and Ethan being able to come and go as they please, I have no idea. But I'm sure we'll find out.


Oh no, I know it's not that simple. It doesn't make sense, that's what I was getting at. Locke needs to be the catalyst most likely so he can resurrect or resume life on the island. Why Locke needs to do that or is needed for that is still up in the air at this point.

I can assume Alperts intention are better than Widmore's or even Bens because Alpert's still on the island. He's the guy that finds the guy :cool:, but there's still light that needs to be shed on his motivations. It would seem Alpert and CS want the same thing, yet CS comes across a little darker in intent than RIchard.

We'll see, like you said. I think the rest of this season will be TPTB starting to pull these different threads together.

Maybe Widmore went off island to defend it out in the real world and then Ben talked Richard into moving the island and not telling Charles where it was.

Cardie

Perhaps so. But I have a question. Turning the wheel gets the Turner to Tunisia. We know a polar bear went through the "exit"...for humors sake, what is young Ben somehow got Widmore trapped in the FDW cave with the bear? Turn the wheel and escape or a bear snack? Once in the desert, the bear loses some of his advantage. Widmore high tails it out. But, has no idea how to find the island or get back. That was all Dharma stuff (subs, Lampost, vectors) not Other know how.

. But, has no idea how to find the island or get back. That was all Dharma stuff (subs, Lampost, vectors) not Other know how.

It's going to be interesting to see how Hawking, whom I am convinced is Other Ellie, made the transition to the Dharma inner sanctum.

Cardie

I think Daniel will play part in convincing Ellie to change sides.

Why are we so sure Eloise is with Dharma?

It's not like we haven't seen The Others operating Dharma facilities that they took over, right? Who's to say she's not still part of Richard's group but is just operating on the other side of the world?

Is there actually any Dharma peeps left? I would assumed Eloise is either working alone or perhaps with Alpert. For some reason I really don't think she is working with Widmore. Also, I have my reservations about Widmore being a leader for the others. As we saw him in the '50s he really didn't seem to be in charge or have any leadership qualities at all. He seemed overly aggressive. I'm assuming at this time Richard knew Widmore would become the leader, after his comment on it starting from an early age. It just doesn't sit well with me.

Why is everyone just taking it for a given that Widmore left the Island by turning the Frozen Donkey Wheel? No character has told us he did that, and yet the prevailing school of thought is that he turned it in order to leave.

A poster simply named "lost" on the darkufo forum posted a recap in which it was theorized that Widmore left the Island in another way. The evidence is that the Orchid station had to be destroyed by Ben in order to reach the tunnel. Unless Widmore reached the wheel by way of a different tunnel, or did it before the construction of the orchid station, I would say he left the island in another manner. The orchid station was intact. Unless there was an alternate route to the wheel.

Maybe Widmore went off island to defend it out in the real world and then Ben talked Richard into moving the island and not telling Charles where it was.

Cardie

I think a scenario such as this is much more likely. Maybe Ben was able to deflect the blame for the Purge onto Widmore or something.

Also, why are we taking it for a given that when you turn the wheel you can't come back to the island? Everything Ben has said is a lie, and this one turned out to be no different.

EDIT: After thinking about it some more, I'm certain that there is NO alternate route to the wheel than by blowing up the orchid to reach that tunnel. If there was another way, I'm sure Ben would have used it, because it would have been easier/faster than blowing up the Orchid. The better question here is how did Ben know about the tunnel behind the wall of the Orchid station, and that it led to the chamber that contained the wheel?

Why is everyone just taking it for a given that Widmore left the Island by turning the Frozen Donkey Wheel? No character has told us he did that, and yet the prevailing school of thought is that he turned it in order to leave.

A poster simply named "lost" on the darkufo forum posted a recap in which it was theorized that Widmore left the Island in another way. The evidence is that the Orchid station had to be destroyed by Ben in order to reach the tunnel. Unless Widmore reached the wheel by way of a different tunnel, or did it before the construction of the orchid station, I would say he left the island in another manner. The orchid station was intact. Unless there was an alternate route to the wheel.



I think a scenario such as this is much more likely. Maybe Ben was able to deflect the blame for the Purge onto Widmore or something.

Also, why are we taking it for a given that when you turn the wheel you can't come back to the island? Everything Ben has said is a lie, and this one turned out to be no different.

EDIT: After thinking about it some more, I'm certain that there is NO alternate route to the wheel than by blowing up the orchid to reach that tunnel. If there was another way, I'm sure Ben would have used it, because it would have been easier/faster than blowing up the Orchid. The better question here is how did Ben know about the tunnel behind the wall of the Orchid station, and that it led to the chamber that contained the wheel?

What about the Well with the rope that Locke half climbed down and then fell? The FDW seems to predate Dharma. Also if Widmore left by other means then why has he been searching for a way back and why didn't he just hop on the freigther when he sent the commandos to extricate Ben?

Hawking tells us that the island constantly shifts locations, that's why the 815ers were never rescued. So if it naturally shifts, seemingly controlled as well, when the FDW isn't turned, then all Ben and Richard would have to do is get Widmore off the island.

If we believe Hawking and the island's moving, then people like Tom and Richard and whoever came and went as they pleased could do so because they're in contact still with the island. Communication goes two ways. Those on the island could possibly determine the location through either some on-island Dharma means, or thru the stars. There's radio silence with Widmore so he doesn't know where the island is.

And think of this. We have Hawking, in possession/control of the Lamp Post. We have the others, on island, her people, in control of the DHARMA Stations there. Coicidence? It seems likely from that perspective that Hawking is still an Other. Still in league with Richard and the others. Why else would CS tell Locke to find her? If she was an enemy to the island why bring her into the fold?

She's not an enemy. Ben may or may not know that she's still in contact with the others. Which I think she must be. It explains how Richard can know that the oceanic six are already back and alive.

I wonder if Charles does get back to an island past time from 2009 or later. That could explain why Ben, in 2005, knows that he can't kill Charles--because Charles lived to get back to the island, landing at a time when pre-2005 Ben was in residence.

Cardie

I get Ben was in on it. All I'm saying is that if it was just Ben, or originated by Ben, than why does Richard 1) go along with it and 2) even if he does go along with it, at the point Ben's leadership grows tiresome for him, why doesn't he reach out to Widmore and bring him back?

Widmore had worn his welcome thin on the island with his people long by the time Ben became a player imo. He was as much outted by Ben as Alpert.

Ben is a master manipulator... I'm sure he made it seem to Widmore as if turning the FDW was Widmore's own idea... or Jacob's. The same way he falsely "interprets" for John who needs to move the Island so that he is able to leave to go kill Penny. The same way he comforts John down from suicide only to murder him and make it look like suicide... I don't think he thought John would actually do it.

He doesn't think Locke will actually kill Cooper and he's right ... Alpert gives Locke the answer...manipulating Ben to believe Locke killed Cooper because Alpert does what his people want. And they have been waiting for John for a long time.

John, like Ben, has been put through some sort of Others' rite of passage... kill father/make sacrifice.

I wonder who Widmore's father was?

I can easily see young Ben being the go between for the Hostiles and Jacob. The island is in danger from the Dharma Initiative - we must move it.

Ben tells Charles that Jacob said to move the island - bam - Widmore is off the island.

Widmore himself implied that he used the FDW by telling Locke that he knew the exit point because he had used it himself.

See, I'm not entirely sold on that Kittenkong. If Widmore knew the exit point, and also had in place a secondary protocol to spot Ben from using the Orchid, than I have to think why didn't Widmore have camera's in place already in the desert for Ben's arrival?

From what we saw when Ben turned the FDW, there was no adjoining cave into that chamber. There was jus the ladder. From what it looked like in Locke's scene in the FDW room, the cave he comes through should be on the wall that the ladder Ben breaks is.

Unless they tricked Widmore off the island by using the Orchid Station Vault, (a possibility I suppose) I'm not sure Widmore turned the wheel. I don't see a way for him to get down there.

With the Electro-magnetic anomaly controlled by the Swan, seemingly putting the island in an invisible bubble, I think just getting Widmore off the island would have left him unable to find it. Tricking him onto a boat or a submarine.

If the EM is connected to other pockets like it around the world, and the island is constantly moving, as Hawking said, then unless Widmore had access to the Lamp Post station, or was in contact with someone on the island, there's no way he would know where it was.

We know the others purged Dharma and took over their stations. It's assumed Ellie 1954 is infact Eloise Hawking. If that's true, then Hawking is an other. That she's off island now may not change that. The others took over Dharma and their stations. The Lamp Post would be one of their stations. Probably the most important one of all. Not one you man with a one eyed Ruskie or a pair of Canadian Woman.

I think the previous wheel turning that Ben spoke of may have had to do with the losties, while the orchid was still being built, in an attempt to get back to their correct time. Someone obviously broke through to the FDW and installed a ladder with a lamp. I wonder though, if you can mass transport a group of people off the island with it though....?

Anyway, I don't know if Widmore turned the wheel. I'd like to see more of him to find out though.

How could the Purge allow the Others to gain control of off-island stations? I always thought the Others were in fact pretending to their off-island contacts that there hadn't been a Purge and that the coup was only revealed to the outside world when Locke pressed 77.

I think it's more likely that Ellie left the island and got involved with Dharma from the beginning, helped by her son's notebook from the 70s.

Cardie

Hawking is an other though. If she and Widmore were working hand in hand (like I had initially thought) then why doesn't Widmore have access to the Lamp Post? That would make his life in finding the island so much easier.

We have Ben defecting from Dharma to help the others...I there's possibly more defectors out there who could have helped. In the seventies we have Mittelos Laboratories trying to solicit Locke to science camp, that's a company we later see Alpert operating out of. I think it's possible there's an off island side to the purge, knowing that we have a company in the seventies that's later shown to be a mainland operating point by Richard.

Also, and maybe we'll get more on this tonight seeing as Richard talks about the last time he saw Locke; Alpert tells Locke when Locke's shot that his friends are off the island and okay. Where does that info come from? Who's Richard's off island link so he can get that information? I think it could be Hawking.

Locke alerting the outside world with pressing 77 is a plausible scenerio too. That info finds it way to Widmore, it could lead to him setting up the fake plane in the trench and getting the freighter together. If he's exiled before he knows there's a purge, he could be operating under the assumption that Dharma is still in charge of the island.

I think this season is building to a purge scene/reveal. I always like the introduction of the others and the stations. Season two was great for me. I'm looking forward to getting more info on the DI and seeing how things we've only be given word of mouth about actually went down.