Okay...Most of you know me as the nut that runs the K.A.T.E. fan thread, and know that I don't start threads lightly...so please be patient. :biggrin: You've also asked me to post this for awhile so here it is...

First off...A few ground rules...

This thread is started in the Fan section to avoid character bashing, and/or shipper arguments. Keep it respectful towards your fellow posters!


__________________________________________________ ______________


So on we go...:)

I have had the theory that Kate is the ultimate plant for a very long time now. I know there have been others with this theory...but I'm looking at it from the pov that Ben is actually aware of this...and so is she.

This would be very JJ Abrams (think Alias).

The 'coincidences' between Kate and Ben;

1.Both are liars and manipulators

2. Both used gas to kill their drunken fathers

3.Both caused the emptying out of Othersville.Ben when he gassed everyone, and Kate when she returned for Jack (again with gas).

4. Both are surrogate parents of children lost on the island

5. Both hold on to token toys give to them from their childhood sweetheart.

6. Kate drugged Kevin with a glass of orange juice and Ben's people, used drugged orange juice as a way of getting people onto the island.

7. License Plates in the car for Kate(don't forget the altering of Joanna's too?)...Numerous passports and I.D.'s, for Ben

8. Both seem harmless and almost desperate one moment, and then the next turn into a military style Rambo.

9. In The Beginning of The End, He was watching her with the faint smile when she hugged Jack [and swiped the sat phone], and his later assessment was "At least someone knows what they're doing".

10. The looks on both their faces when he asks her to untie his hands, during the Keamy takeover.

11.The look on her face when she first sees who it is on the beach/breakfast scene.

12. Jack tells Kate that he has 'been travelling on Passenger planes hoping they would crash'. Later BEN tells Jack, " I heard that you've been flying on passenger planes... hoping that you'd crash. It's dark, Jack, very dark."
This would mean that somewhere in between...Kate has spoken with Ben and confided this to him.

**
If Kate is the ultimate of long cons, the majority of this would make sense. Especially given the time jumping...
"I've always been with you." takes on multiple level meanings then, doesn't it? So does..." No girl is just like me."**

13.Both characters initially are portrayed as prisoners.

14. What was it Ben said? "We did all this because the only way to gain a con man's respect is to con him. And you're pretty good, Sawyer. We're a lot better. " Kate says..." If I want a spot on that raft Sawyer, I'll get a spot on that raft." If she is a plant...everyone will be the long con.

15. Both characters are quiet, and allow people to hang themselves with their own words. Both are amazingly adept at reading people on sight.

16. Ben refers to consensus having been reached about Goodwin being a "good man" and reliable enough to judge Ana Lucia's character and vouch for her. While Locke mirrors this scene when he visits Kate in the rec room, informing her that “ He vouched for her telling them that she was a good person, reliable…etc.”, but that they weren’t very forgiving.

17. Ben had to tell Kate "But he's not your son" when he kept calling Alex his daughter.**thank you LipGloss!*


18. They have ''had'' Kate captive numerous times : ep|2x11, ep|3x08, ep|3x15, again in ep4x12. Yet, PICKETT: I know Ben would rather die than let them go.

Let them go...being in (someone not one of us?)


19. Ben to Sawyer : "We're not killers,James." and then this...in another scene with Kate.

Kate prevents them from shooting Mikhail, "Nobody's shootin' anybody." Followed up by this, almost ''insulted'' reaction...
KATE: Why would you want to come back?
MIKHAIL: You would not understand.
KATE: Try me.
MIKHAIL: I misspoke. What I meant to say is, you are not capable of understanding.
KATE: And why am I not capable...

20. Could be Ben related...and maybe not...just look at it closely.

When she arrives at the Recruiting station after the murders, Sam tells her that 'they might be--' she cuts him short and explains that 'no, I've been watching ''they aren't there''. We assume she's speaking of the Feds...is she? He later tells her..." I'll have to call ''them''.


21.Kate's background....Been on the run for three years for your life, assumed multiple I.D.'s...Ran to the SOUTH PACIFIC (where btw she could still be extradited)...had survived a plane crash, the monster and been kidnapped by the Others...
If Ben offered you a plate of breakfast after a nice hot shower would YOU eat it? We know she did because "You taste like strawberries..."


22.Sam is a Soldier that has seen war, torture, and numerous deployments. He emphatically tells her that he ''knew'' that she would kill Wayne...and that he didn't have murder in his heart.


************************************************** ******************
More on the Mythology and Kate (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=109287) here @ Devera's new thread.

It's all connected after all!

This is for your thoughts, discussions and additions if you can think of any!

Also...as a footnote. Over on the K.A.T.E. Thread we're currently starting to do a rewind of all the Kate episodes..please feel free to join in.


Current epi: The pilot (since it's everyone) and Tabula Rasa.

Enjoy!:biggrin:

I'm sold! :biggrin:

I remember a lot of Kate-as-a-plant theories early on in the series and as time went along I completely forgot about 'em. Thanks for all of the info to mull over. Looks like I'll have to take a closer look...

is that crazy stuff or what. i never would have seen any of this if it hadn't been for you LBK.

one that you told me about, in the Hunting Party when hurley and charlie are sitting in the hatch listening to music, there is a box on the coffee table to the left of hurley and the right of charlie. the very same box is in kate's mother's house in What Kate Did on the shelf when she is bringing wayne in the house. the camera spans from the living room briefly and the box is to the left at the end of the shelf. have to rewind, slo mo in order to see it. why would the very same unordinary box be in the both places? weird and wild!

another one LBK has mentioned before is in the pilot, at the very beginning, sawyer NEVER mentioned his name. i watched it recently to make sure. when they, boone, shannon, sayid, charlie, kate and sawyer are going to get the transeiver (spelling) to work, the polar bear is coming and of course sawyer has the gun while everyone is running. kate runs back toward sawyer and yells his name. now, maybe it was a script snafoo, but i found it weird that she yelled out his name, urgently, in order to save him from the bear.

my very first weird moment was in the 4th finale when ben asked her to cut his ropes tied around his hands. she so quickly looked at his face like, "are you kidding me". there was a long thought between the two of them. and then of course, "you can go now". "we can just go, off the island, that's it" "that's it". that all took me so off guard when i wasn't even looking for it.

remember when sun was worried she was pregnant and kate was sitting with her laughing about someone bringing a test on the plane. maybe kate brought it but not for herself!

when she conveniently came out of the jungle when jack had walked off to be alone and sew his wound. miraculously, kate shows up for him to ask for help.

i'm having fun, LBK! thanks so much for starting the thread.....finally, girl!:budi:

I think this might very well be my new favorite thread. I haven't been 100% sure if Kate is a willing participant in this con or if she is be manipulated by some sort of overarching motivation we don't see--protecting someone?--but I definitely agree with your assessment.

Here is another one:

In "Eggtown" Kate gets very upset with Miles and starts shaking him, asking if they know. When he tells her that they know she's a criminal, she seems...relieved. (???)

She's asking if the freighter folks know that she's a plant/working with Ben.

Wow!! A lot of people have said that Kate is a plant before...but wow. The similarities and the examples you state are convincing. I just hope that if this is the case, the reveal isn't in the final episode of the series. I would love for this reveal to happen early because it would definitely add another 'wtf is gonna happen now twist' that can really make things interesting if it's pursued.

I'm sold! :biggrin:

I remember a lot of Kate-as-a-plant theories early on in the series and as time went along I completely forgot about 'em. Thanks for all of the info to mull over. Looks like I'll have to take a closer look...

Excellent! Welcome!:biggrin:

is that crazy stuff or what. i never would have seen any of this if it hadn't been for you LBK.

one that you told me about, in the Hunting Party when hurley and charlie are sitting in the hatch listening to music, there is a box on the coffee table to the left of hurley and the right of charlie. the very same box is in kate's mother's house in What Kate Did on the shelf when she is bringing wayne in the house. the camera spans from the living room briefly and the box is to the left at the end of the shelf. have to rewind, slo mo in order to see it. why would the very same unordinary box be in the both places? weird and wild!

another one LBK has mentioned before is in the pilot, at the very beginning, sawyer NEVER mentioned his name. i watched it recently to make sure. when they, boone, shannon, sayid, charlie, kate and sawyer are going to get the transeiver (spelling) to work, the polar bear is coming and of course sawyer has the gun while everyone is running. kate runs back toward sawyer and yells his name. now, maybe it was a script snafoo, but i found it weird that she yelled out his name, urgently, in order to save him from the bear.

my very first weird moment was in the 4th finale when ben asked her to cut his ropes tied around his hands. she so quickly looked at his face like, "are you kidding me". there was a long thought between the two of them. and then of course, "you can go now". "we can just go, off the island, that's it" "that's it". that all took me so off guard when i wasn't even looking for it.

remember when sun was worried she was pregnant and kate was sitting with her laughing about someone bringing a test on the plane. maybe kate brought it but not for herself!

when she conveniently came out of the jungle when jack had walked off to be alone and sew his wound. miraculously, kate shows up for him to ask for help.

i'm having fun, LBK! thanks so much for starting the thread.....finally, girl!:budi:


HaHa I know I know..I've been promising for like months now right? Figured I'd better just take the plunge. Thanks Max.:gathring:
I think this might very well be my new favorite thread. I haven't been 100% sure if Kate is a willing participant in this con or if she is be manipulated by some sort of overarching motivation we don't see--protecting someone?--but I definitely agree with your assessment.

Here is another one:

In "Eggtown" Kate gets very upset with Miles and starts shaking him, asking if they know. When he tells her that they know she's a criminal, she seems...relieved. (???)

She's asking if the freighter folks know that she's a plant/working with Ben.


*beaming! * thanks Devera...Glad to know that others are as obsessed with this as I am. LOL!!!!!!!!!!

In answer to that Miles scene...oh that was a big one for me too. " do you know who I am? do you know what I did?" She was relieved...!

Did it ever occur to anyone here that Wayne himself might be more than your everyday hick? That the Feds might have been on this girl's butt since like before the roof shingles fell to the ground via the explosion...because he was someone important (Dharma). I keep looking for someone in the new epis (70's) that might be a good shoe in candidate. Obviously they wouldn't show his name...yet. If Kate took out someone important to them...you better believe the island was her fate. Because the island dosen't even let you die if it's not done with you. It's why they haven't shown us her childhood yet...they can't. They have shown everyone else's though.;)

Anyone ever think that she might have been shot too during the Tom Brennan death scene? Why would the cop have been aiming at him...and not the driver? I say he was aiming at her...but the bullets didn't work. Just.Like.Michael.
100%
Wow!! A lot of people have said that Kate is a plant before...but wow. The similarities and the examples you state are convincing. I just hope that if this is the case, the reveal isn't in the final episode of the series. I would love for this reveal to happen early because it would definitely add another 'wtf is gonna happen now twist' that can really make things interesting if it's pursued.


oh man me too buddy! Let the suspense build till we all faint. ROFL.

The biggest giveaway with her Mother is the 'sinking ankles at the shore' comment.

"I'm doing something. I used to do this all the time with my Mother."

Where...in a cornfield?

I haven't been 100% sure if Kate is a willing participant in this con or if she is be manipulated by some sort of overarching motivation we don't see--protecting someone?--but I definitely agree with your assessment.

Here is another one:

In "Eggtown" Kate gets very upset with Miles and starts shaking him, asking if they know. When he tells her that they know she's a criminal, she seems...relieved. (???)

She's asking if the freighter folks know that she's a plant/working with Ben.


Ohh wow!!! Ben told Jack not to worry about Kate or something along those lines.

OMG! wayne in dharmaville? isn't he james horan? i'll be watching for him!

Exactly...she especially singles out Miles...because he's got his little spirit friends telling him everything. Ever watch this deleted scene? It's like she's trying to tell Jack something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EExYst8dWaU)about herself...again, but it dosen't register.


"How do you know it wasn't me...?" Sorta reminds me of

"You guys got any milk?

100%
Yes...He is James Horan...but keep in mind...they're back in the 70's. He would be younger and so would Diane. Sam would probably be involved with her then first though. She left Sam for Wayne when Kate was 5 ...1982 approx. (omg what year was the purge?)

right!

you guys milk.....he is so bad.

I put out word to the Ben fan section too so they can give their pov ;)

Wow, LBK! I was only expecting about 8 to 10 similarities, but you've really found a lot more! This should be interesting with Kate being your favorite character and Ben being mine. :biggrin:

I sent Dr. Suds a PM asking him to check out this thread. I remember him saying something awhile back about Kate being so eager to get inside the hatch because she knew Kelvin was there. Kelvin and her father worked together in the army (or at least rode together in the flashback with Sayid). It might not have anything to do with Ben, but could provide evidence she was a plant.

It looks you really did your research! If I think of any more I'll post them. In the meantime, I'm gonna enjoy this thread!

when jack said he was going to find the black box, kate got all weird and said, 'i'm going with you'. it was as if she was afraid that he'd find something he wasn't suppose to.

and LBK, you've said that kate has not killed anybody on the island, right? and in the 3rd season finale, she asked jack, incredulously, why he didn't kill ben after jack thought he killed everyone on the beach. it was like she was dying to have him killed.

I'm sold! :biggrin:

I remember a lot of Kate-as-a-plant theories early on in the series and as time went along I completely forgot about 'em. Thanks for all of the info to mull over. Looks like I'll have to take a closer look...

I do not believe in the spy/plant theory but these coincidences cannot be coincidences.

Season 6 should answer that.

YAY, finally a thread for this!! :ohyes:
I've always loved this theory and Kate & Ben's coincidences.

Well, you've certainly brought out a lot of similarities, but then, Lost is full of self-similarity. Since my initial inkling that Kate was a plant, I've used the same logic to show that all of the characters are plants, so Kate's no longer special in that regard.

AFAICT in the characters' re-creation of the Priory of Sion hoax, Kate & Benry are each on the Merovingian side. Kate's name alludes to the Cathars and her character harks to "mother" Mary and to Mary Magdalene. "Benjamin Linus" means "the Benjamin line (us)" and as Henry he stands for a bunch of Henrys, primarily the French Henry 2.

Robert in the Bronx

Wow, LBK! I was only expecting about 8 to 10 similarities, but you've really found a lot more! This should be interesting with Kate being your favorite character and Ben being mine. :biggrin:

I sent Dr. Suds a PM asking him to check out this thread. I remember him saying something awhile back about Kate being so eager to get inside the hatch because she knew Kelvin was there. Kelvin and her father worked together in the army (or at least rode together in the flashback with Sayid). It might not have anything to do with Ben, but could provide evidence she was a plant.

It looks you really did your research! If I think of any more I'll post them. In the meantime, I'm gonna enjoy this thread!

Thanks to everyone! Diesel...Ben's my second favorite character ;) *can you tell?* :biggrin:

when jack said he was going to find the black box, kate got all weird and said, 'i'm going with you'. it was as if she was afraid that he'd find something he wasn't suppose to.

and LBK, you've said that kate has not killed anybody on the island, right? and in the 3rd season finale, she asked jack, incredulously, why he didn't kill ben after jack thought he killed everyone on the beach. it was like she was dying to have him killed.

How do you know she wasn't testing him(and I don't mean romantically)? She's done that throughout the series...*that list is coming soon!*
YAY, finally a thread for this!! :ohyes:
I've always loved this theory and Kate & Ben's coincidences.

YAAY Lipgloss is here too! :Laie_82:

Well, you've certainly brought out a lot of similarities, but then, Lost is full of self-similarity. Since my initial inkling that Kate was a plant, I've used the same logic to show that all of the characters are plants, so Kate's no longer special in that regard.

AFAICT in the characters' re-creation of the Priory of Sion hoax, Kate & Benry are each on the Merovingian side. Kate's name alludes to the Cathars and her character harks to "mother" Mary and to Mary Magdalene. "Benjamin Linus" means "the Benjamin line (us)" and as Henry he stands for a bunch of Henrys, primarily the French Henry 2.

Robert in the Bronx

Ah...a fellow Bronx-ite! (actually I'm an ex but that's ok...once a NY'er...)
I agree with you that lost is a big puzzle in the six degrees of seperation way. I believe Kate is special in that regard...because it's her childhood that will link them all together in the end, and everything that we've seen will really come full circle. Quotes weve heard and dismissed will be suddenly shown in a new angle, etc...

I've thought of a new one this morning guys...

There are three characters that are connected in a way I've not thought about before.

Widmore.
Juliet.

and

Kate.

How?

Tabula Rasa. The very first FB episode. The ONLY episode to be titled...

IN LATIN.;)....

I :heart: bad Kate ~ I love that she followed John into the hatch, sold him out to the freighter people and nearly dropped dead on the spot when Miles demanded to be taken to Naomi's body so he could 'speak to her'.

She was alone with Naomi when she died and must have wondered what Miles would say. She was so relieved when he didn't accuse her of any wrongdoing. Then her selfish lying con to establish if he knew anything about her... :jump: vintage Kate and as finer moment as she's ever had.

That question about breakfast with Ben though: would I? ...that is a trick question, right?

I hope Ben's in back of her night before the flight ordeal. Maybe he confronted her with a truth (:biggrin: - it could happen) about herself so much worse than Wayne being her dad that she gave up any illusion of being a suitable mommy for Aaron on the spot.

Ben had something happen to him to turn him from that nice retiring kid into the man he is now; Kate was a straight A student who speaks of her childhood as having had happy times I imagine were absent for Ben (roll on a flashback do) but also took a wrong turn.

I look forward to watching how this thread grows.

I :heart: bad Kate ~ I love that she followed John into the hatch, sold him out to the freighter people and nearly dropped dead on the spot when Miles demanded to be taken to Naomi's body so he could 'speak to her'.

She was alone with Naomi when she died and must have wondered what Miles would say. She was so relieved when he didn't accuse her of any wrongdoing. Then her selfish lying con to establish if he knew anything about her... :jump: vintage Kate and as finer moment as she's ever had.

That question about breakfast with Ben though: would I? ...that is a trick question, right?

I hope Ben's in back of her night before the flight ordeal. Maybe he confronted her with a truth (:biggrin: - it could happen) about herself so much worse than Wayne being her dad that she gave up any illusion of being a suitable mommy for Aaron on the spot.

Ben had something happen to him to turn him from that nice retiring kid into the man he is now; Kate was a straight A student who speaks of her childhood as having had happy times I imagine were absent for Ben (roll on a flashback do) but also took a wrong turn.

I look forward to watching how this thread grows.

Thank you LipLocked!

This made me bust out laughing...


Then her selfish lying con to establish if he knew anything about her... :jump: vintage Kate and as finer moment as she's ever had.


You're welcome to join the rest of the K.A.T.E. group doing the rewind Wed(since there is no epi anyway) and watch Tabula Rasa if you'd like?:biggrin:

What a lovely offer Ladybird :smile: I'm expecting my daughter's boyfriend through the door any moment now to play catch-up on LaFleur.

I'll come see you when I can. You may even sell me on redemption for Kate. ;) Really, I am open to every possibility as long as her character remains as memorable as the shockingly unique character created in Season 1.

Ben will linger long in the memory, and Kate deserves her TV immortality too.

so my question is, what is everyone's reaction going to be when kate's past is revealed? is sawyer, jack, hurley, sayid, sun and jin going to forgive her?

liplocked, you mention her going down after locke in the hatch or before him as he urged, would this be because she knew about the hatch and wanted to be there with whomever uncovered it? just like her needing to go with jack in the pilot to find the black box, when she had to go with sayid to get the transciever to work? how many times has she said, "i'm going with you"? i always wondered, and so did sawyer, why she wanted so badly to get off the island. in the first season finale, and then on the helicopter. she was a fugitive on the run destined for jail, but she could not wait to get off the island. so, was it worth running off the island to get away from the island and ben?

maybe her miraculous vindications from her charges and jail time were not such a coincidence!

on another note, Diesels Blitz, i love your avatar. i almost feel like those words are going to come right out of his mouth, right here. he is one of the most fascinating characters of all time!

LBK.....cannot wait for another list!

in the first season finale, and then on the helicopter. she was a fugitive on the run destined for jail, but she could not wait to get off the island. so, was it worth running off the island to get away from the island and ben?

maybe her miraculous vindications from her charges and jail time were not such a coincidence!

on another note, Diesels Blitz, i love your avatar. i almost feel like those words are going to come right out of his mouth, right here. he is one of the most fascinating characters of all time!

LBK.....cannot wait for another list!

:biggrin:

IMO her trial was completely bogus. First of all...it was tried in the wrong state. None of the crimes that she was guilty of were in California. The murder was in Iowa, the Bank Robbery New Mexico...even if there were more in other states, supposedly the initial crime, and the primary reason Ed Marrs was hunting her down was for the murder. So why would a woman that is clearly skilled in tracking, evading the law in every aspect...deliberately flee to Australia...a country where she could still be extradited?

Which leads me to my next point. When you think of sailing (since Max brought the subject up with the raft issue)...which characters do you instantly connect it with?

Desmond...Penny...Her Father that held the race around the world that got Desmond stranded to begin with?

or...

Kate:You think you'll be ready by tomorrow?
Mike:The man said not a day to waste
Kate:Supplies all set? You've got food, fresh water?
Mike:Kate, no offense, but I've got work to do. Why the sudden interest?
Kate:Because I'm going with you.
MIke:Look, the raft's full -- we need 4, we got 4
Kate:Including Sawyer?
Mike:Including him. We needed the stuff he had so he bought his way on.
Kate:To the first raft, which burned
Mike:You know, I'm not going to get into semantics with you. I told the guy...
Kate:He doesn't even know how to sail.<<<How does she know this?
Mike:And you do?
Kate:I spent 2 summers crewing J boats. I know my way around a sailboat.

Yes...I know that Sun also has experience sailing...but the focus on this conversation and her desperation to get off the island (which was a pretty darn nice prison btw) was too odd.Was she going to report back to someone? Tell them the location perhaps?

goodness gracious LBK! i'm wasting my time watching this season over again. i still need to go back and watch from the beginning. all i got through was the pilot. how does she know about sawyer?

mexaholic asked: liplocked, you mention her going down after locke in the hatch or before him as he urged, would this be because she knew about the hatch and wanted to be there with whomever uncovered it?

I like that she wasn't about to let Locke discover anything alone, to the extent of going against the spirit of Jack's address to the losties - although she managed to keep Jack on side while she did what she wanted.

How much she knew when is a mystery to me, but pretty early on I had her pegged for watching her fellows before she made a move of some kind. She may have bailed on her deal at some point then been brought back into 'the game' kicking and screaming. I'm delightfully in the dark.

I hope she's a double agent; I'd much rather watch Kate play both ends against the middle than play two men. The former takes courage and wiles while the latter is a form of cowardly cheating beneath my contempt. I don't feel empowered watching women exploiting their sexuality to the detriment of men - I feel cheapened and a bit grimy.

Choose woman! and if Ben's having you mess them around then stand up to him for goodness sake - you were fast enough to take offence when Sun suggested there might be nothing you wouldn't do.

How much she knew when is a mystery to me, but pretty early on I had her pegged for watching her fellows before she made a move of some kind. She may have bailed on her deal at some point then been brought back into 'the game' kicking and screaming. I'm delightfully in the dark.

I hope she's a double agent; I'd much rather watch Kate play both ends against the middle than play two men.

Perfectly stated!

Here's another little amusing one...

Ray Mullen to Kate: " You're hiding your wages in a tin can Annie, I mean I would've held onto it for you."
Kate: " I've got trust issues."

Henry Gale: I guess this is my reward for good behavior, huh? I finally got some points for drawing Ana-Lucia that map.
John Locke: What?
Dr. Jack Shephard: Did you...
John Locke: No.
Henry Gale: Wow, you guys have some real trust issues, don't you?

I did not know that about Tabula Rasa.

That was the first time we saw an entire episode devoted to one character.

Our first window was The Pilot but Tabula Rasa opened it wide.

and LBK, you've said that kate has not killed anybody on the island, right? and in the 3rd season finale, she asked jack, incredulously, why he didn't kill ben after jack thought he killed everyone on the beach. it was like she was dying to have him killed.

I actually just rewatched this scene, since I was forwarding through Through the Looking Glass looking for Locke's scenes in the pit for a clue last night. When she finds out Ben killed her friends, she looks devastated...understandable. However, she seems really upset and very shocked that Ben would do that. Why? Her friends were supposed to be safe. That was part of the plan. When Ben had them killed (or so Kate thought), he changed the rules and (in Kate's mind) deliberately chose to move himself from a "good guy" to a "bad guy." What do you do with bad guys? By the philosophy of Ben and the Others (and Kate), if someone isn't innocent, they can be killed without remorse. That is why she wanted Jack to kill him. On top of being very upset that her friends had been murdered, she was also being personally betrayed.

Another note...and this is a sorta spoiler so don't open this unless you're really sure you care.


On Dark's site there are new interviews with Sterling Beaumon the young actor that plays Ben. He says that he will be in two upcoming epis...but that no...we will not see anymore of Annie or Ben's mom this season. IMO the reason is obvious...If we see her we're gonna find out who she is related to ;)

100%
I actually just rewatched this scene, since I was forwarding through Through the Looking Glass looking for Locke's scenes in the pit for a clue last night. When she finds out Ben killed her friends, she looks devastated...understandable. However, she seems really upset and very shocked that Ben would do that. Why? Her friends were supposed to be safe. That was part of the plan. When Ben had them killed (or so Kate thought), he changed the rules and (in Kate's mind) deliberately chose to move himself from a "good guy" to a "bad guy." What do you do with bad guys? By the philosophy of Ben and the Others (and Kate), if someone isn't innocent, they can be killed without remorse. That is why she wanted Jack to kill him. On top of being very upset that her friends had been murdered, she was also being personally betrayed.


Yes, Devera and that would make the stakes all the more high! Now she's back on the island...and dosen't look real thrilled about it either (small wonder)

YOUNG KATE: Why are you putting this stupid plane in there?
YOUNG TOM: Because it's cool, Katie. I got it when I flew to Dallas by myself.
YOUNG KATE: That is cool, just like this time capsule.
YOUNG TOM: It'll be totally cool when we dig it up in like 20 years.
YOUNG KATE: How do you know we'll be together?
YOUNG TOM: Because we'll be married and you'll be a mom and we'll have 9 kids.
YOUNG KATE: I don't think so. As soon as I get my license we should just get in a car and drive. You know, run away.
YOUNG TOM: You always want to run away, Katie.
YOUNG KATE: Yeah, and you know why.


I always assumed she was referring to Wayne here. Now? Not so sure.

I actually just rewatched this scene, since I was forwarding through Through the Looking Glass looking for Locke's scenes in the pit for a clue last night. When she finds out Ben killed her friends, she looks devastated...understandable. However, she seems really upset and very shocked that Ben would do that. Why? Her friends were supposed to be safe. That was part of the plan. When Ben had them killed (or so Kate thought), he changed the rules and (in Kate's mind) deliberately chose to move himself from a "good guy" to a "bad guy." What do you do with bad guys? By the philosophy of Ben and the Others (and Kate), if someone isn't innocent, they can be killed without remorse. That is why she wanted Jack to kill him. On top of being very upset that her friends had been murdered, she was also being personally betrayed.

YES! and somewhere on the board someone said that ben never said to kill them. and i didn't understand that because i thought he did, but when they went back to the beach, tom and that other guy had a conversation about not killing them that i could never understand. apparently he faked it to jack, but he never put the order through. THAT scene i'm gonna have to watch again.;)

this is weird, but i'm getting an adreneline rush talking about his stuff. lost hasn't been all that exciting for me until now. i feel like i do when i'm watching every season finale!

YES! and somewhere on the board someone said that ben never said to kill them. and i didn't understand that because i thought he did, but when they went back to the beach, tom and that other guy had a conversation about not killing them that i could never understand. apparently he faked it to jack, but he never put the order through.

That was me max. Ben gave the order...but he already knew the outcome.

There are three characters that are connected in a way I've not thought about before.

Widmore.
Juliet.

and

Kate.

How?

Tabula Rasa. The very first FB episode. The ONLY episode to be titled...

IN LATIN.;)....

You're forgetting about Deus Ex Machina

Actually, if you listen to what Tom and other random other guys say...they were supposed to fake killing them when Ben ordered them to kill them. They have an argument about it, because while they followed Ben's orders, one of them thought that they should not have obeyed Ben's orders and just killed them. :)

got it!

LOST is all in the details! (However, we mustn't miss the forest for the trees). :)

DISCLAIMER: I'm spoiler free this year so any theories of mine are just speculation totally based on episodes that have already aired.

I don't buy these Kate as a plant theories but something is going on regarding Kate and Ben. Too much manipulation than necessary and a lot of out-of-place longer-than-necessary looks between them. For example, that context-laden breakfast on the beach. Why go out of his way to manipulate her that way? Yes, last season I also noticed the way Ben held out his bound hands to Kate and asked her to cut them.:polite: Just that look between them that was a second or so longer than necessary. It got me interested in reading Kate/Ben fanfic. Is that pairing "Bate" "Ken" or "Benjamate" ? lol I think the two would suit.

In the latter part of S3 when Kate, Sayid and Locke come back to rescue Jack, Kate is locked in the recreation room by Tom. Then Tom lets Jack in to see her and Tom says something like: I didn't expect to see you back here so soon, Kate. This wording strongly implies Tom did expect to see her back with them at a later date. Why? Given Locke's "they don't want you because you killed your daddy" explanation of why she couldn't come with him on his own daddy-killing camping trip, why would the Others even want her unworthy self back later?

The reason Ben kidnapped both Kate and Sawyer in S3 was never totally explained to my satisfaction. Ben did a lot of psychological manipulation to bond the two of them together. He manipulated Jack and Juliet too although I can see the reason for that. Ben's Matchmaking Service. lol :hug:

As someone already noted Danny said Ben would never let them (Kate and Sawyer) go. Then Danny was planning on killing Sawyer so maybe Danny meant the one Ben would never let go was Kate.

This season we see them together at the Marina when Kate says to Ben: "Why don't you leave me and my son alone" and Ben responds "Because he's not your son...Kate". Then that long look between them again. Why did Ben care who raised Aaron?

Or maybe this is all because of Michael Emerson. Michael makes love with his voice; it has the cadence of sex.:shifty: :blshing1: When he acts with a woman he holds her eyes like a lover and he uses the intonation of voice of a lover.

Lobby, I think we're trying to stay away from shipping on this thread, but I hear Ben/Kate is called "Bate." I have also seen Ben/Kate fans use "Bate is Fate," which I've also thought must perplex hardcore Jack/Kate fans since their tag line was basically just lifted. :laugh:

The scene where Pickett means to kill Sawyer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgCr0rlbDyo) is an interesting one from a Kate is in cahoots with Ben position. One guy has a gun to Kate's head, and Sawyer has the upper hand and has the gun on the other guy. Then he tells Sawyer he has to let go or they will kill Kate. Kate keeps telling Sawyer to not let go and to keep fighting. Why? Kate knows that she not in any danger, but Sawyer is and will be killed by Pickett if he lets go.

KATE: Please! I'll do anything you want!
PICKETT: I want you to watch.

Wait, rewind...did Pickett just say he wanted Kate to watch? Like, as in, Cindy the stewardess "watch"? Hmm. (I'm glad this guy never ran into Sun, by the way, if this is how he is treating Sawyer and Sawyer wasn't even in the area when Colleen was shot).

Wow, thats some very strange coincedences indeed. Im not sure i'd run with it myself, but it is definately very interesting.

YOUNG KATE: Why are you putting this stupid plane in there?
YOUNG TOM: Because it's cool, Katie. I got it when I flew to Dallas by myself.
YOUNG KATE: That is cool, just like this time capsule.
YOUNG TOM: It'll be totally cool when we dig it up in like 20 years.
YOUNG KATE: How do you know we'll be together?
YOUNG TOM: Because we'll be married and you'll be a mom and we'll have 9 kids.
YOUNG KATE: I don't think so. As soon as I get my license we should just get in a car and drive. You know, run away.
YOUNG TOM: You always want to run away, Katie.
YOUNG KATE: Yeah, and you know why.


I always assumed she was referring to Wayne here. Now? Not so sure.

Exactly and notice that she asks him, " How do you know we'll be together?" Did she know something even then?

You're forgetting about Deus Ex Machina

:biggrin: I stand corrected...But since that is a Locke epi, and he is absolutely essential to the mythology. Then by default does that mean that the only other character with Latin in the title is as well?

DISCLAIMER: I'm spoiler free this year so any theories of mine are just speculation totally based on episodes that have already aired.

I don't buy these Kate as a plant theories but something is going on regarding Kate and Ben. Too much manipulation than necessary and a lot of out-of-place longer-than-necessary looks between them. For example, that context-laden breakfast on the beach. Why go out of his way to manipulate her that way? Yes, last season I also noticed the way Ben held out his bound hands to Kate and asked her to cut them.:polite: Just that look between them that was a second or so longer than necessary. It got me interested in reading Kate/Ben fanfic. Is that pairing "Bate" "Ken" or "Benjamate" ? lol I think the two would suit.

In the latter part of S3 when Kate, Sayid and Locke come back to rescue Jack, Kate is locked in the recreation room by Tom. Then Tom lets Jack in to see her and Tom says something like: I didn't expect to see you back here so soon, Kate. This wording strongly implies Tom did expect to see her back with them at a later date. Why? Given Locke's "they don't want you because you killed your daddy" explanation of why she couldn't come with him on his own daddy-killing camping trip, why would the Others even want her unworthy self back later?

The reason Ben kidnapped both Kate and Sawyer in S3 was never totally explained to my satisfaction. Ben did a lot of psychological manipulation to bond the two of them together. He manipulated Jack and Juliet too although I can see the reason for that. Ben's Matchmaking Service. lol :hug:

As someone already noted Danny said Ben would never let them (Kate and Sawyer) go. Then Danny was planning on killing Sawyer so maybe Danny meant the one Ben would never let go was Kate.

This season we see them together at the Marina when Kate says to Ben: "Why don't you leave me and my son alone" and Ben responds "Because he's not your son...Kate". Then that long look between them again. Why did Ben care who raised Aaron?

Or maybe this is all because of Michael Emerson. Michael makes love with his voice; it has the cadence of sex.:shifty: :blshing1: When he acts with a woman he holds her eyes like a lover and he uses the intonation of voice of a lover.

:laugh: I'm not getting a sexual attraction vibe at all. What I am getting from their exchanges however is a protective thing. Even the fact that he gave her a heads up as to the "next two weeks being very hard" during the breakfast. I love the line, " well then you don't get any coffee." ROFL.



Wow, thats some very strange coincedences indeed. Im not sure i'd run with it myself, but it is definately very interesting.

You're welcome to do the rewind with the K.A.T.E. thread group if you'd be interested Gidget Girl...Tabula Rasa's up first.

Lobby, I think we're trying to stay away from shipping on this thread, but I hear Ben/Kate is called "Bate." I have also seen Ben/Kate fans use "Bate is Fate," which I've also thought must perplex hardcore Jack/Kate fans since their tag line was basically just lifted. :laugh:

The scene where Pickett means to kill Sawyer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgCr0rlbDyo) is an interesting one from a Kate is in cahoots with Ben position. One guy has a gun to Kate's head, and Sawyer has the upper hand and has the gun on the other guy. Then he tells Sawyer he has to let go or they will kill Kate. Kate keeps telling Sawyer to not let go and to keep fighting. Why? Kate knows that she not in any danger, but Sawyer is and will be killed by Pickett if he lets go.

KATE: Please! I'll do anything you want!
PICKETT: I want you to watch.

Wait, rewind...did Pickett just say he wanted Kate to watch? Like, as in, Cindy the stewardess "watch"? Hmm. (I'm glad this guy never ran into Sun, by the way, if this is how he is treating Sawyer and Sawyer wasn't even in the area when Colleen was shot).

No I'd really rather not turn this into a ship thing...:migrane::) It's more a theory related and individual characters and their connections type of deal.

I'm going to close this thread (so we aren't double posting and losing track of what was where and when, and you can find the open version


SAME THREAD DIFFERENT LOCATION! (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?p=2121965#post2121965)

Which is the same thing...but for everyone, not just the Kate fans. Unless that gets nasty and then I'll reopen in this section;)