So I think I speak for most when I say...Sawyer became such an amazing person in the last few years of the show.

But after that conversation with Jack...hmmm...questions marks abound.

Now that he settled down is he going to be old Sawyer again? seems like it. but for what reasons?

what?? Sawyer was putting Jack in his place. A place Jack deserved to be in. Sawyer saved their butts, was working on saving Sayid's, and Jack is back and *immediately* starts questioning and trying to fix these??? Jeebus. Jack needs to sit back and TRUST for once in his life.

I agree that at the end of the episode, Sawyer was acting a bit like a man in love with his new position and power and not in a good way. I don't think Jack did anything terribly wrong. He went to see Sawyer, he entered with a smile on his face. He had no intention of going head to head with Sawyer. He had to pull things out of Sawyer rather than Sawyer just kind of knowing that Jack, Kate, and Hurley would probably have a million questions. Jack couldn't understand why Sawyer was sitting around reading, which if you recall, is what Sawyer was always doing on the beach. Sawyer decided to use that moment to take every cheap shot he could think of at Jack. Was it necessary? Was Jack REALLY being that mean and threatening? I don't think so.

Jack is responsible for everyone dying? Really? If I recall, Sawyer and Locke's camp got shot to hell from sitting around until the mercs came. Also, Ben killed the people on the freighter, not Jack. I guess Sayid is also to blame for getting everyone killed too, huh? Jack was right, he did get those with him off the island.

I don't understand why Sawyer had such venom for Jack. I think he feels threatened, and he doesn't need to feel threatened. Sawyer probably believes that Jack wants his leadership role back. Guess what? He doesn't, and Sawyer was surprised. Maybe he thinks Jack will pursue Juliet. Guess what? Their just friends.

Sawyer was unnecessarily cold and mean in that final scene.

I agree that at the end of the episode, Sawyer was acting a bit like a man in love with his new position and power and not in a good way. I don't think Jack did anything terribly wrong. He went to see Sawyer, he entered with a smile on his face. He had no intention of going head to head with Sawyer. He had to pull things out of Sawyer rather than Sawyer just kind of knowing that Jack, Kate, and Hurley would probably have a million questions. Jack couldn't understand why Sawyer was sitting around reading, which if you recall, is what Sawyer was always doing on the beach. Sawyer decided to use that moment to take every cheap shot he could think of at Jack. Was it necessary? Was Jack REALLY being that mean and threatening? I don't think so.

Jack is responsible for everyone dying? Really? If I recall, Sawyer and Locke's camp got shot to hell from sitting around until the mercs came. Also, Ben killed the people on the freighter, not Jack. I guess Sayid is also to blame for getting everyone killed too, huh? Jack was right, he did get those with him off the island.

I don't understand why Sawyer had such venom for Jack. I think he feels threatened, and he doesn't need to feel threatened. Sawyer probably believes that Jack wants his leadership role back. Guess what? He doesn't, and Sawyer was surprised. Maybe he thinks Jack will pursue Juliet. Guess what? Their just friends.

Sawyer was unnecessarily cold and mean in that final scene.

You have to divorce yourself from the investment you have in a character and look at the big picture. Jack is a control freak, there's not a soul who can logically argue that. The Dharma Initiative is operating in an extremely hostile environment at a strategic (they live with the water to their backs) and tactical (no one can handle the others in on-island warfare) disadvantage, and they are smart enough to know that. They have an uneasy truce with the others that is so tenuous that there is actually language written into the truce when dealing with spies (see Sayid), so both sides accept spying on the other as a fact of life.

Jack has a slight idea of the nebulous outline of the situation that the Dharma Initiative is operating under, much like Americans understand that the bailout bill pays executive bonuses. Jack is also a hot head, something that in combination with being a control freak is not ALWAYS an asset. Jack is a man of action but not a thoughtful one. Jack was testing the waters to try and jump back in control of the situation, which was his comment about "you're sitting here reading a book." In that little exchange we basically have Jack, who has known Sawyer for three months, basically challenging the fact that Sawyer has everything under control, while Sawyer has exhibited that he DOES have everything under control for three years. Sawyer knows Jack is a hot head, so he can't lay everything out on the table for Jack, because Jack would start nosing about or do something else to get all of them brought to the attention of an already very paranoid, and rightly so, Dharma Initiative. In fact, it may already be too late. Things may have begun to already unravel.

We have Juliet ganking the sub list from Amy, then going to Phil to cover for Kate, explaining that there were last minute changes. Any kind of discussion of this to Amy, and there's going to be sniffing around. And Kate has never been good at lying, surprising considering her background, and she started looking nervous when Phil was leaning on her. If a trail leads from Amy to Phil and Phil is questioned, he'd likely remember this. And it all culminates when one of these brand new Dharma trustees ask Phil where "James" is, something he doesn't like to be called anymore (LOL Kate), and was likely seen hugging up on old Jim's girl, and then is invited in for a somewhat lengthy conversation, upon which he leaves. When you're operating in a warzone the way that Dharma is, that's all it takes to start sniffing around and trying to break down a story. And if that happens, you can believe there's going to be trouble. Jack doesn't realize any of this. Sadface Kate doesn't either. They were able to generate and wallow in all sorts of drama of their own manufacture back in the 'real world' and it didn't hurt anyone (well almost) but themselves. From the look we got at all of the O5 in the fourth season, we have a pretty good idea that they are each pretty unstable people in their own right. This isn't old school island days. Jack and company just don't realize this yet. Sawyer is trying to cover their butts, but it's an almost certainty that even if it isn't too late, Jack or Kate or Sayid will do something to get them noticed, and get all the Dharma kids after them with torches and pitchforks.

You have to divorce yourself from the investment you have in a character and look at the big picture.

Actually, you've pretty much looked at this from your one character perspective. Here's how:

Jack is a control freak, there's not a soul who can logically argue that. I agree with this fact. He's more of a control freak about himself and his situations, however.

The Dharma Initiative is operating in an extremely hostile environment at a strategic (they live with the water to their backs) and tactical (no one can handle the others in on-island warfare) disadvantage, and they are smart enough to know that. They have an uneasy truce with the others that is so tenuous that there is actually language written into the truce when dealing with spies (see Sayid), so both sides accept spying on the other as a fact of life. And does Jack know this? Does Jack know anything about the details of the truce with the Dharma Initiative and the hostiles. Here's where you're "divorce yourself from the investment you have in a character and look at the big picture" fails. We, the audience, know the big picture. The individual characters, many of them, are still in the dark. To my knowledge, Jack doesn't know about a tenuous truce, and Sawyer isn't exactly enlightening him.

Jack has a slight idea of the nebulous outline of the situation that the Dharma Initiative is operating under, Jack has been kept in the dark about pretty much everything. Knowing a nebulous outline is not going to help him with anything. It simply makes people jump to conclusions because they don't have all the facts.

Jack is also a hot head, something that in combination with being a control freak is not ALWAYS an asset. LOL! Jack is the hot head? You're mixing up your characters, I think.

Jack is a man of action but not a thoughtful one. So all those plans he devised with Sayid, Locke, Kate, Charlie, etc. were a figment of my imagination? Yes, Jack is a man of action, and yes, Jack has reacted in situations on the island, but to say that Jack doesn't think things through is ludicrous. And Sawyer thinking that he IS thoughtful or a great thinker is even more ludicrous.

Jack and Sawyer are both smart men. They are both men of action and they are both men who can think under pressure. To infer that these attributes only apply to Sawyer is completely untrue, and there are tons of scenes to support that fact.

Jack was testing the waters to try and jump back in control of the situation, The last scene between Jack and Sawyer completely refutes this statement.

Sawyer has exhibited that he DOES have everything under control for three years. Sawyer didn't control anything. Sawyer INHERITED his control. You act as if Sawyer created calm out of chaos. Sawyer simply slipped into Dharmaville, called himself James LaFleur, donned a jumpsuit, and became a member of the Dharma Initiative and I'm guessing later promoted to Head of Security. It's kind of easy to be in control of a situation that was already under control.

he can't lay everything out on the table for Jack, because Jack would start nosing about or do something else to get all of them brought to the attention of an already very paranoid, and rightly so, Dharma Initiative. In fact, it may already be too late. Things may have begun to already unravel. So Sawyer keeping Jack in the dark is going to make Jack less nosy?

We have Juliet ganking the sub list from Amy, then going to Phil to cover for Kate, explaining that there were last minute changes. Any kind of discussion of this to Amy, and there's going to be sniffing around. And Kate has never been good at lying, surprising considering her background, and she started looking nervous when Phil was leaning on her. If a trail leads from Amy to Phil and Phil is questioned, he'd likely remember this. And it all culminates when one of these brand new Dharma trustees ask Phil where "James" is, something he doesn't like to be called anymore (LOL Kate), and was likely seen hugging up on old Jim's girl, and then is invited in for a somewhat lengthy conversation, upon which he leaves. When you're operating in a warzone the way that Dharma is, that's all it takes to start sniffing around and trying to break down a story. And if that happens, you can believe there's going to be trouble. Jack doesn't realize any of this. Sadface Kate doesn't either. They were able to generate and wallow in all sorts of drama of their own manufacture back in the 'real world' and it didn't hurt anyone (well almost) but themselves. From the look we got at all of the O5 in the fourth season, we have a pretty good idea that they are each pretty unstable people in their own right. This isn't old school island days. Jack and company just don't realize this yet. Sawyer is trying to cover their butts, but it's an almost certainty that even if it isn't too late, Jack or Kate or Sayid will do something to get them noticed, and get all the Dharma kids after them with torches and pitchforks.

Considering that Sawyer destroyed families, swindled people out of their life savings, and murdered people, I wouldn't consider him a "stable" person either.

The bottom line is that Sawyer can't protect the '05 from anything. As Daniel told him "What happened, happened." Same thing that Hurley told Sawyer when he mentioned the pit. Sawyer is living in a dream world which is going to blow up in his face. The Dharma Inititative is doomed, according to Daniel, and Sawyer is acting like he did in the barracks. He's sitting around and waiting for it to happen. I think I'd rather be thinking like Jack, Kate, Sayid, and Hurley.

And all is good in the world again. All that new found love I had for Sawyer the last episode went all straight back to hate during that Jack/Sawyer conversation.

I agree that at the end of the episode, Sawyer was acting a bit like a man in love with his new position and power and not in a good way. I don't think Jack did anything terribly wrong. He went to see Sawyer, he entered with a smile on his face. He had no intention of going head to head with Sawyer. He had to pull things out of Sawyer rather than Sawyer just kind of knowing that Jack, Kate, and Hurley would probably have a million questions. Jack couldn't understand why Sawyer was sitting around reading, which if you recall, is what Sawyer was always doing on the beach. Sawyer decided to use that moment to take every cheap shot he could think of at Jack. Was it necessary? Was Jack REALLY being that mean and threatening? I don't think so.

Jack is responsible for everyone dying? Really? If I recall, Sawyer and Locke's camp got shot to hell from sitting around until the mercs came. Also, Ben killed the people on the freighter, not Jack. I guess Sayid is also to blame for getting everyone killed too, huh? Jack was right, he did get those with him off the island.

I don't understand why Sawyer had such venom for Jack. I think he feels threatened, and he doesn't need to feel threatened. Sawyer probably believes that Jack wants his leadership role back. Guess what? He doesn't, and Sawyer was surprised. Maybe he thinks Jack will pursue Juliet. Guess what? Their just friends.

Sawyer was unnecessarily cold and mean in that final scene.


Remeber though, everything Sawyer has been through for the last 3 years is because of Jack. Everyone who died in the last 3 years(Charolette and all the red shirts while they were jumping- which seems to be everyone except for the 5 and possibly rose and bernard.) is because of Jack's fasination with leaving the island.

Jack was also being very condisending towards Sawyer. He comes in on his first day and questions everything Sawyer has set up for the past 3 years. Jack was the first person to take the cheap shot, Sawyer just retaliated with the truth.

Remeber though, everything Sawyer has been through for the last 3 years is because of Jack. Everyone who died in the last 3 years(Charolette and all the red shirts while they were jumping- which seems to be everyone except for the 5 and possibly rose and bernard.) is because of Jack's fasination with leaving the island.

Whoa! How is it Jack's fault? Jack had everyone almost escaping on the freighter until Ben killed Keamy and detonated the explosives. Jack is NOT to blame for anything that happened to Sawyer. That's ridiculous. Are you saying that Jack is the omnipotent God of the island that determines destinies? That everyone died because he alone left? I don't think so.

Jack was also being very condisending towards Sawyer.

Sawyer was the condescending one. Jack didn't lace into Sawyer or even get in his face after Sawyer's smug remarks about how great he is. Jack just left. Good for him.

He comes in on his first day and questions everything Sawyer has set up for the past 3 years. First, Jack didn't question everything Sawyer had set up. In fact, he did exactly what Sawyer told him to do. Second, why shouldn't Jack question him? When did Sawyer become someone that couldn't be questioned? I don't recall Sawyer playing by those rules, do you?

Jack was the first person to take the cheap shot, Sawyer just retaliated with the truth.Jack called Sawyer on his comment that he was "working on it" while he was actually reading a book. Jack has a right to make a comment, especially when Sayid is in a jail cell. As for Sawyer's truth, he also compared himself to Winston Churchill. Nuff said.

Ok so you are told your friends lives are in danger and you have to go back to a place full of people dying, a monster, polar bears etc that you so desperately tried to leave in the first place to save them. And the method you're told to go back defies all laws of physics and logic yet you do it anyway. You get back and find out you're 30 years in the past and the friends who were supposedly in danger are playing house. How would you react?

Sawyer was being rude!:mad:

He :badwords: all over Jack for no rhyme or reason. It was uncalled for.

Whoa! How is it Jack's fault? Jack had everyone almost escaping on the freighter until Ben killed Keamy and detonated the explosives. Jack is NOT to blame for anything that happened to Sawyer. That's ridiculous. Are you saying that Jack is the omnipotent God of the island that determines destinies? That everyone died because he alone left? I don't think so.



Sawyer was the condescending one. Jack didn't lace into Sawyer or even get in his face after Sawyer's smug remarks about how great he is. Jack just left. Good for him.

First, Jack didn't question everything Sawyer had set up. In fact, he did exactly what Sawyer told him to do. Second, why shouldn't Jack question him? When did Sawyer become someone that couldn't be questioned? I don't recall Sawyer playing by those rules, do you?

Jack called Sawyer on his comment that he was "working on it" while he was actually reading a book. Jack has a right to make a comment, especially when Sayid is in a jail cell. As for Sawyer's truth, he also compared himself to Winston Churchill. Nuff said.

1. Everyone? He left like 20 Losties back at the beach and not to mention he left Jin on the boat to die. He knew full well and left Jin to die. Everything horrible in season 4 and season 5 till now has been Jack's fault. If he never made that radio call the frieghter people would never have been there to kill everyone and then everyone wouldn't have been left behind. Jack was told repeatedly not to call the frieghter and he did. That is Jack's fault. Everything that happened since then has been Jack's fault. Had he not called the frieghter like Locke and Ben said, all of those people would not have died. Simple as that.

2. Jack came in and attacked Sawyer about him sitting around reading instead of doing something about Sayid. Even though Sawyer was already taking care of it. Instead of asking Sawyer Jack came in and made a snark comment about Sawyer reading a book instead of acting.

3. Jack at this point has no place to question Sawyer. In just this episode Sawyer saved Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid. Does he get an thanks from Jack for that, no. Fact is Jack is jumping into a situation he has no clue about and if messed up will get them all killed. Jack just needs to sit back and follow Sawyer's lead because for the past 3 years Sawyer has kept them all alive and just saved 4 of the 5 who returned.
100%
Ok so you are told your friends lives are in danger and you have to go back to a place full of people dying, a monster, polar bears etc that you so desperately tried to leave in the first place to save them. And the method you're told to go back defies all laws of physics and logic yet you do it anyway. You get back and find out you're 30 years in the past and the friends who were supposedly in danger are playing house. How would you react?


Jack did not go back to save everyone. Jack went back for Jack. He explained this at the end of season 3. He said he rides the planes in hopes of it crashing back on the island and he doesn't care if everyone on it dies as long as he gets back to the island. Jack has become a mess since leaving the island. He is not the heroic leader he once was.

1. Everyone? He left like 20 Losties back at the beach and not to mention he left Jin on the boat to die. He knew full well and left Jin to die. Everything horrible in season 4 and season 5 till now has been Jack's fault. If he never made that radio call the frieghter people would never have been there to kill everyone and then everyone wouldn't have been left behind. Jack was told repeatedly not to call the frieghter and he did. That is Jack's fault. Everything that happened since then has been Jack's fault. Had he not called the frieghter like Locke and Ben said, all of those people would not have died. Simple as that.

2. Jack came in and attacked Sawyer about him sitting around reading instead of doing something about Sayid. Even though Sawyer was already taking care of it. Instead of asking Sawyer Jack came in and made a snark comment about Sawyer reading a book instead of acting.

3. Jack at this point has no place to question Sawyer. In just this episode Sawyer saved Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid. Does he get an thanks from Jack for that, no. Fact is Jack is jumping into a situation he has no clue about and if messed up will get them all killed. Jack just needs to sit back and follow Sawyer's lead because for the past 3 years Sawyer has kept them all alive and just saved 4 of the 5 who returned.
100%



Jack did not go back to save everyone. Jack went back for Jack. He explained this at the end of season 3. He said he rides the planes in hopes of it crashing back on the island and he doesn't care if everyone on it dies as long as he gets back to the island. Jack has become a mess since leaving the island. He is not the heroic leader he once was.

Pretty biased?

Jack did more good than Sawyer.

Sawyer thinks he is God but he is not. He is being a :censored: as usual. His attitude is terrible and shows that he is lower than scum.

I'm a HUGE Jack fan, and I thought Jack coming in (after saving him, Kate, and Hurley ) and asking Sawyer why he was reading a book was the start of the rudness, but I think Jack wants things done the way he would do them. I also think Jack has treated Sawyer like this throughout the show. Having said that, I think James didn't have to stick the knife in as deep:)

If anything Sawyer was fairly restrained in his criticism of Jack. Like somebody said above divorce yourself from the character. Jack is a control freak and a reactionary which as the past showed caused many problems for everyone. And I'll be very fair and say he did save many lives, two sided coin I guess. But I think on an unconscious level Jack, perhaps Kate and Hurley also expected everything to be the same when they returned to the island in terms of the interpersonal relationships, Jack expected to be able to call the shots. Yes, Sawyer did get a little angry with Jack but look at it from the left behinders perspective. On some level they have to think that the O6 abandoned them, they witnessed the deaths of everyone else in camp Lostie. And from the moment the freighter arrived on the island Jack said, they are here to rescue us in the face of all evidence to the contrary. So it is kind of understandable that the left behinders might not have exactly warm feelings for Jack. That having been said, Jack was as he always does reacting from emotions and not from logic, he seemed to want to go right then to rescue Sayid. And say he did come up with some half thought out plan to get Sayid out of Dharma jai. Jack not knowing the rules regulations or operating procedures of the DI would have failed, gotten captured and possibly blown things for everyone. Phil already seems suspicious of him.

Jim Lafake, I mean Sawyer needs to mind his attitude.

Jack was just trying to talk some sense into the idiot.

By the way, Phil better watch it.

Actually, you've pretty much looked at this from your one character perspective. Here's how:

I agree with this fact. He's more of a control freak about himself and his situations, however.

And does Jack know this? Does Jack know anything about the details of the truce with the Dharma Initiative and the hostiles. Here's where you're "divorce yourself from the investment you have in a character and look at the big picture" fails. We, the audience, know the big picture. The individual characters, many of them, are still in the dark. To my knowledge, Jack doesn't know about a tenuous truce, and Sawyer isn't exactly enlightening him.

Jack has been kept in the dark about pretty much everything. Knowing a nebulous outline is not going to help him with anything. It simply makes people jump to conclusions because they don't have all the facts.


Exactly..you pretty much supported everything I said up to this point. You agree Jack is a control freak in 'his situations', and this is exactly the thing that is a powder keg in this situation. I'm not buddies with any of these characters, I'm not gonna be sleeping with any of the girls, so I have no vested interest. Look at this from a purely situational point of view, knowing Jack must fix everything, Sawyer is 100% correct for keeping him in the dark. Jack won't act without information, but once he gets the information, makes a decision on what the right course of action is, he will put that course into play come hell or high water. So the less he knows, the more he will sit and let Sawyer try and bring them all in safely.



LOL! Jack is the hot head? You're mixing up your characters, I think...

So all those plans he devised with Sayid, Locke, Kate, Charlie, etc. were a figment of my imagination? Yes, Jack is a man of action, and yes, Jack has reacted in situations on the island, but to say that Jack doesn't think things through is ludicrous. And Sawyer thinking that he IS thoughtful or a great thinker is even more ludicrous.

Jack and Sawyer are both smart men. They are both men of action and they are both men who can think under pressure. To infer that these attributes only apply to Sawyer is completely untrue, and there are tons of scenes to support that fact.

Sorry..didn't realize there was room on this show for only one hothead :rolleyes: Yes, Jack is a hothead when he gets locked into a course of action. Maybe thoughtful isn't the right word when it comes to Jack. How about unilateral. The freighter is an excellent example. There's still a bit of room for interpretation how the whole freighter incident played out, but I don't think they came there to help the 815ers back home, as Daniel told us numerous times. Yes a lot of people with Locke got killed, because of their proximity to Ben. That was a tossup...either group could have had the casualties. Jack went from "I don't trust him with anyone but me" to handing him over to Locke in the space of an episode or so. If Jack had stuck with his original assessment and held on to Ben, it's likely the beach camp would have been wiped out. Keamy and crew shot first and asked questions later, no reason to think it wouldn't have been the same situation had possession of Ben been reversed. Jack still does not get this. He showed that tonight. "I got them off this island!" Everyone knows it's not quite so clearcut as that, Jack included. Once Jack gets locked into a plan that he feels is right, there is no dissuading him, even in the face of logical contradictions. That's what I meant to say.

Sawyer was a professional conman. He's come a long way since then, and the killing of the real Sawyer was a major catalyst of this. But just because he's made peace with his demons doesn't mean he lost all those skills, as we saw in Lafleur. I've never been a conman, but it's not hard to imagine the attributes required to do the job. High level of intelligence, creative thinking, problem solving coupled with calculation, long term planning, risk assessment, and situational assements, acting fast when you need to, and taking the time to think things through when you don't. And as in any life of crime, flexibility is key. You're operating in a hostile environment ALL THE TIME...look at Kate...classic criminal. Every time pre-eggtown we see Kate, we know she knows she's not in friendly territory. Jack is the very antithesis of flexibility. Jack has a lot of good qualities, and a lot of good leadership qualities, but anything to an excess is a bad thing, and Jack does EVERYTHING to an excess except calculate. He's great at devising attack plans, and even has his subtle moments, but he has the habit of acting when he gets just enough information. If Sawyer laid everything out on the table, Jack would begin scheming and would be an uncontrollable factor at that point.


The last scene between Jack and Sawyer completely refutes this statement.Eh...it could go either way in my book. When sawyer says "now ain't that a relief" Jack looks away and gives his old eyebrow raise, then responds with "yea", slightly wavery vocal inflection. The look on his face, I could see the argument made that Jack IS relieved, but at the same time, that looks pretty similar to Jack's "I'm calling BS" response...so it's a tossup. It's a bit early to say it completely refutes it.


Sawyer didn't control anything. Sawyer INHERITED his control. You act as if Sawyer created calm out of chaos. Sawyer simply slipped into Dharmaville, called himself James LaFleur, donned a jumpsuit, and became a member of the Dharma Initiative and I'm guessing later promoted to Head of Security. It's kind of easy to be in control of a situation that was already under control.

It's not a monarchy. I don't think anyone is desiring control for any kind of despotic reason. In a tough situation a leader will emerge. Everyone except Locke let Jack do it, Locke had a different philosophical slant than Jack did and they butted heads resulting in a splitting of the groups ultimately. Both men thinking they were right. Sawyer chose to continue to follow. Once Locke disappeared, another leader had to emerge. Sawyer stepped up to the plate, and I think you have to give him props. As I've already said, they jumped into a pretty dangerous situation and Sawyer integrated himself without any help from the outside. Well...help from fate by way of Richard Alpert, but Sawyer took Lemons and made three years worth of lemonade with it, becoming head of Dharma security in a wartime situation along the way, the perfect position to help his friends...much better than someone who just got to the island. So again, looking at it situationally because I don't have a vested interest in any of these characters, Jack's wisest course of action would be to sit back and let Sawyer work it out, and save any pissing contest for later. But it's not going to happen...as I stated earlier, I think the threads have already begun to unravel for them.



So Sawyer keeping Jack in the dark is going to make Jack less nosy?
LOL, no..not at all..but Jack's not stupid. He's not gonna roll up on Horace and start demanding answers...at least...I hope not. But like I said above...Jack won't go into superJack mode until he feels he has enough information to act on, so as long as Sawyer can keep him in the dark, that buys him time to try and settle the Sayid situation.


Considering that Sawyer destroyed families, swindled people out of their life savings, and murdered people, I wouldn't consider him a "stable" person either.

The bottom line is that Sawyer can't protect the '05 from anything. As Daniel told him "What happened, happened." Same thing that Hurley told Sawyer when he mentioned the pit. Sawyer is living in a dream world which is going to blow up in his face. The Dharma Inititative is doomed, according to Daniel, and Sawyer is acting like he did in the barracks. He's sitting around and waiting for it to happen. I think I'd rather be thinking like Jack, Kate, Sayid, and Hurley.Sawyer wasn't a stable person back when he did all this, but one of the major themes of this show has always been redemption. Some get it, some don't. Sawyer has struck me as one of those who's made peace with the ghosts of his pasts and his past mistakes. Jack strikes me as one who ultimately will. Your girl Kate....she's going to hell brah :D

Your bottom line, you're 100% right. Sawyer CAN'T protect them from anything, but is that any reason not to try? It's a small island. There are two factions. Hostiles, and Dharma. Where exactly do you suggest they go? What exactly do you suggest they do? Jump on the sub and live out their life in the late 70s? Seriously...who the hell would want to live through the 80s two times?

Pretty biased?

Jack did more good than Sawyer.

Sawyer thinks he is God but he is not. He is being a :censored: as usual. His attitude is terrible and shows that he is lower than scum.


Im not baised at all, I think Jack is one of the best charecters on the show. He's one of my favorites. I just realize what Jack has become. In the first 3 seasons Jack was the heroic leader, he had his purpose in life. Ever since leaving the island became a real possibility Jack has become a man obsessed and since leaving the island Jack's life has become utter crap. Compare Jack off island to Jack in Live Together Die Alone. As much as I love Jack, I can realize how he has become a horrible person ever since season 4. Its just true.

How does Sawyer think he is God? Since he was left in charge of the Losties what has he ever done but look out for all them and done what's best for them. What has he done that has not been in the best intrest of Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid since they returned to the island.

Pretty biased?

Jack did more good than Sawyer.

Sawyer thinks he is God but he is not. He is being a :censored: as usual. His attitude is terrible and shows that he is lower than scum.


Seriously man...whichever side of the discussion you're on, feel free to contribute, but throw out some examples to back up claims...As for the creepy, in love with a pair of totally fictionally television character craziness like the above quote, keep it to the shipper threads. :rolleyes:

Jack needs to chill. He was downright rude and condescending to Sawyer, and I don't blame him one bit for delivering the smackdown. I bet Jack will show him a modicum of respect the next time they meet. Sawyer deserves that. Jack feels he saved the O6. Well, bully for him, but Sawyer's actions saved the rest of them. Egos need to be put aside if they are going to survive.

I don't believe that Jack was getting what he deserved. this is three years later. Sawyer was supposed to grow up by now.

He should be super excited to see Jack. But he's dharma now.

Jack, Kate & Hurley were dropped into a situation that they're unfamiliar with. It would have been a good idea to lay low for awhile, not calling attention to themselves until they could see for themselves what was happening. Instead, the first night, Jack heads over to LaFleur's to work on plans or something. The very act of him asking where James lived sparked more suspicions in whatshisname's mind. Couldn't he have waited a day or two? Personally, I think he was a bit miffed to find he was only a "work man" (reminscent of Roger Linus's outrage :biggrin:), while James had a high position and was well though of. But if that last thought is a wrong assumption on my part, Jack still should have waited a bit rather than call attention to himself the very first night!

I don't think James started out being rude. He probably thought Jack shouldn't have shown up yet, but Jack's immediate questioning of him and inferring that he was sitting around not doing anything rubbed James the wrong way. Yeah, Jack's a hothead. Sawyer has been too, but I think he's learned patience in these last three years. (Over the past several episodes we've seen instances where Juliet's influence caused him to take a step back & calm down.) He knows the Dharma set-up and their situation. Jack does not.

And, no Adam8023, James wasn't comparing himself to Churchill. :rolleyes: He was indicating that he'd learned something from the man.

And, no Adam8023, James wasn't comparing himself to Churchill. :rolleyes: He was indicating that he'd learned something from the man.

I liked this little bit of info. First it gave us insight into something on him we've seen since season one. Now we know why he was always reading. He was always plotting :D It was also a nice little insight that there was more to him than the scumbag conman life he wore for so long. Also, I guess it's one of the things he and Juliet have in common. She was a book club fan. :biggrin:

I like Jack and Sawyer.
This scene between them was Sawyer staking out his claim. He did not want anyone messing up "what they had," as he told Juliet.
If I was Sawyer I would be worried that Jack, Kate, and Hurley would mess things up for him. He has a pretty good life on the island. It was pretty obvious the three of them stuck out like a sore thumb. He had to be harsh to Jack or otherwise Jack might ruin things for him. Phil is already suspicious of Jack and Kate and rightly so.

And Jack was questioning because he doesn't know anything. He doesn't know about the Left Behinders time travel, Charlotte's death, what happened to Faraday, ect. Wouldn't you want to be an inquisitor if you were in Jack's position or would you just be willing to take everything at face value? You see Sawyer treating one of their friends (Sayid) as prisoner. How would you take it if you saw that? I would go and seek out Sawyer too.

They both simply were doing what anyone in their position would do. IMO anyways. And it was meant to illustrate the role reversal between Jack and Sawyer. Why is it a question of whose being more rude, ect? They were always in tension with each other. Of course there was going to be some coldness going on. I expected that.

I liked this little bit of info. First it gave us insight into something on him we've seen since season one. Now we know why he was always reading. He was always plotting :D It was also a nice little insight that there was more to him than the scumbag conman life he wore for so long. Also, I guess it's one of the things he and Juliet have in common. She was a book club fan. :biggrin: LOL! Yeah, I wonder if he was reading Carrie! (Wasn't that Juliet's book o' choice?)

Sawyer started out by asking Jack if he wanted to sit down and have a beer. How was he the instigator? He may have been a bit harsh, but Jack is already on the verge of screwing up everything that Sawyer has worked so hard to set up. It's not like they have a way they know of to get out of '77, so this is their home for now.

Maybe I need to rewatch the scene... but I thought Jack went in rather calm... he even kind of laughed when Sawyer told him he just needed to go rest. I think Jack wanted some answers. Hard to figure out why... he was warped 30 years into the past. Dude should just roll with it right?

Jack thought he was coming back to help them. What a jerk! Seems like no matter what the Doc does he gets crap for it on here. He's a Workman now. He'll mow a lawn and he'll get attacked for being a major cause of global warming.

What really bugged me... Sawyer and Jack had gotten closer, and for some reason they seem to almost hate each other again.

I think the storyline were about to see is how the left-behinders have settled into their lives and probably prefer it.

I can stand in defense of both characters. I appreciate Jack's newfound humility and James' newfound confidence. Naturally the changes are going to make them butt heads a bit, but aren't they on the same side in the end?

Why is it that everything has to be a "this character" vs. "that character" argument? The OP's original observations were simply about the way James had changed and the ways in which he had stayed the same. Honestly, between "LeFleur" and "Namaste," it almost feels like we're dealing with a new character entirely, which I like-- it makes his transformation rich and intriguing. The same is true for Jack to a subtler extent, though we've had two years to get used to the idea of Beard Jack and his arc of humiliation and redemption. James changed on us overnight, from the audience's perspective.

I realize that some people on this board are so obsessively loyal to one character that they become not only total apologists for everything the character does, but rabid guard dogs of the character's honor who will assault anything that even appears to challenge it. You know who you are, and even as I type this I know there isn't a darn thing I can say that is going to unentrench you from that narrow perspective. But I am done treating characters like Jack, James, Juliet and Kate as though they were in a cage match vying for dominance in some imaginary LOST superiority competition. Not everything has to be reduced to who is better.

I agree that at the end of the episode, Sawyer was acting a bit like a man in love with his new position and power and not in a good way. I don't think Jack did anything terribly wrong. He went to see Sawyer, he entered with a smile on his face. He had no intention of going head to head with Sawyer. He had to pull things out of Sawyer rather than Sawyer just kind of knowing that Jack, Kate, and Hurley would probably have a million questions. Jack couldn't understand why Sawyer was sitting around reading, which if you recall, is what Sawyer was always doing on the beach. Sawyer decided to use that moment to take every cheap shot he could think of at Jack. Was it necessary? Was Jack REALLY being that mean and threatening? I don't think so.

Jack is responsible for everyone dying? Really? If I recall, Sawyer and Locke's camp got shot to hell from sitting around until the mercs came. Also, Ben killed the people on the freighter, not Jack. I guess Sayid is also to blame for getting everyone killed too, huh? Jack was right, he did get those with him off the island.

I don't understand why Sawyer had such venom for Jack. I think he feels threatened, and he doesn't need to feel threatened. Sawyer probably believes that Jack wants his leadership role back. Guess what? He doesn't, and Sawyer was surprised. Maybe he thinks Jack will pursue Juliet. Guess what? Their just friends.

Sawyer was unnecessarily cold and mean in that final scene.

Thank you AGAIN! I love how everyone is putting Jack off. (although that doesn't surprise me either!) There would be absolutely nothing wrong with giving Jack a little more to go on. But Sawyer likes his newfound position of "importance". But I think he's a little too comfortable and stubborn and bad things happen to people who get to comfy!! Sawyer was a complete creep in that scene, and that is what he does best. Oh well, I got to like "James" for two weeks and now SAWYER is back!

Seriously...who the hell would want to live through the 80s two times?
:lol2:



I realize that some people on this board are so obsessively loyal to one character that they become not only total apologists for everything the character does, but rabid guard dogs of the character's honor who will assault anything that even appears to challenge it. You know who you are, and even as I type this I know there isn't a darn thing I can say that is going to unentrench you from that narrow perspective. But I am done treating characters like Jack, James, Juliet and Kate as though they were in a cage match vying for dominance in some imaginary LOST superiority competition. Not everything has to be reduced to who is better.
I'd go so far as to say the writers would like us to see some commonality in the characters, though they don't always make it easy.

Here's what I don't get:

James/ Sawyer has been waiting for these guys to get back since three years; he's mentioned it several times, as late as the delivery scene last epi, where Jin reported that they hadn't found anything, and James told him to keep looking, as long as it took. So, it's clear he's been waiting for their return, looking forward to it, even.

So the reaction seemed a bit out of place to me tonight: I know he was surprised, who wouldn't be, even if he'd been hoping for them to come back. But I'd've thought he might've made some sort of contingency plan for just this: if Jack etc suddenly show up, what do we do? Instead, he looks worried and tense, and afraid of how to handle matters. Like the whole return came out of nowhere. I just found this a tad confusing, and would love to get alternate POVs to help me clear it up?

Here's what I don't get:

James/ Sawyer has been waiting for these guys to get back since three years; he's mentioned it several times, as late as the delivery scene last epi, where Jin reported that they hadn't found anything, and James told him to keep looking, as long as it took. So, it's clear he's been waiting for their return, looking forward to it, even.

So the reaction seemed a bit out of place to me tonight: I know he was surprised, who wouldn't be, even if he'd been hoping for them to come back. But I'd've thought he might've made some sort of contingency plan for just this: if Jack etc suddenly show up, what do we do? Instead, he looks worried and tense, and afraid of how to handle matters. Like the whole return came out of nowhere. I just found this a tad confusing, and would love to get alternate POVs to help me clear it up?
I'm pretty sure he expected Locke to return with a plan since he successfully stopped the time-tripping. The writers gave us the scene at the well where Sawyer says they'll wait as long as it takes. Then the scene where Sawyer tells Richard he's waiting for Locke, and then in this episode he asks immediately about Locke. I think his only plan was to keep the I5 safe until Locke's return. Since that didn't work out, he's reading a book, and thinking about what to do next.

Here's what I don't get:

James/ Sawyer has been waiting for these guys to get back since three years; he's mentioned it several times, as late as the delivery scene last epi, where Jin reported that they hadn't found anything, and James told him to keep looking, as long as it took. So, it's clear he's been waiting for their return, looking forward to it, even.

So the reaction seemed a bit out of place to me tonight: I know he was surprised, who wouldn't be, even if he'd been hoping for them to come back. But I'd've thought he might've made some sort of contingency plan for just this: if Jack etc suddenly show up, what do we do? Instead, he looks worried and tense, and afraid of how to handle matters. Like the whole return came out of nowhere. I just found this a tad confusing, and would love to get alternate POVs to help me clear it up?

That is an excellent point evanesco! Really, if you're looking, waiting, expecting them for three years, how about an actual PLAN for when/if they do come back. Instead, let's freak out!! :eek2:

Jack called Sawyer on his comment that he was "working on it" while he was actually reading a book. Jack has a right to make a comment, especially when Sayid is in a jail cell. As for Sawyer's truth, he also compared himself to Winston Churchill. Nuff said.

Sawyer spent the day running around to get Jack, Kate and Hurley safely into the compound, and to keep Sayid from getting shot. Jack was an arrogant tool in his condescending attitude. On top of which, Jack had the arrogance to say to his face that he got people off the island. I couldn't believe he'd have the gall to go there. Sun would have hit him with her shovel for that one, so I thought Sawyer showed admirable restraint. All those people killed by flaming arrows, Charlotte, the M.I.A. Bernard and Rose, not to mention Juliet, Sawyer, Miles, Jin and Daniel... they weren't off the island, Jack. Chill for a couple of days, at least, before you want to decide how things should be run. I love how all the reviews are cheering Sawyer on for that well-deserved smackdown.

And Sawyer wasn't comparing himself to Winston Churchill, he was explaining a habit that is helpful to him for clearing his mind, i.e. reading - something Churchill also did for the same reason.

Fair enough, TRoss. That makes some sort of sense, at least, that he'd be expecting Locke to show up and take charge of the O6.

And Doc, I think Sawyer's feeling out of his element now; Sayid being an 'Other' is a problem, plus they have no idea how many 316ers survived, and whether any of them might show up, Sun included, tomorrow.

I think there are going be huge issues now: if Sun does manage to get to Jin's time, I can't see him sitting back and letting DI decide what to do with her. The man'd kill for her, no question.

Here's what I don't get:

James/ Sawyer has been waiting for these guys to get back since three years; he's mentioned it several times, as late as the delivery scene last epi, where Jin reported that they hadn't found anything, and James told him to keep looking, as long as it took. So, it's clear he's been waiting for their return, looking forward to it, even.

So the reaction seemed a bit out of place to me tonight: I know he was surprised, who wouldn't be, even if he'd been hoping for them to come back. But I'd've thought he might've made some sort of contingency plan for just this: if Jack etc suddenly show up, what do we do? Instead, he looks worried and tense, and afraid of how to handle matters. Like the whole return came out of nowhere. I just found this a tad confusing, and would love to get alternate POVs to help me clear it up?

Sawyer is way to complacent and comfortable. His looking for the 06 was like Ben and the submarine. Just as Ben wanted people to have the illusion that they could come and go at will, Sawyer wants the other left behinders to believe there's a larger plan- that they're looking and waiting rather than settling in permanently. There is none, though, beyond his next Dharma beer and dinner with Juliet.

heh I think he wasn't comparing himself to Chruchill just taking away one of his lessons. Could anyone one giving food to the poor be referred to as a wannabe Jesus?! :biggrin:

I thought Jack was being a little ungrateful for what had been done for him, but also Sawyer(La Fleur) did get a little jab at him by sorting out his janitorial job.:biggrin:

I think Jack feels just as 'lost' as Sawyer and they deal with it in different ways. Jacks a doctor who needs to think fast and act just as quick whereas Sawyer is the con man who analyzes the slightest variable in each situation. Bring Locke in to the mix a man of faith you have got one pretty formidable team right there.

Each of these characters have had there highs and lows and has had their time of leadership, and during this leadership been challenged whether it be Sawyer questioning Jack or Jack questioning Jack or vice versa. If Jack didn't question Sawyer it wouldn't be like old times

heh I think he wasn't comparing himself to Chruchill just taking away one of his lessons. Could anyone one giving food to the poor be referred to as a wannabe Jesus?! :biggrin:
:laughing: I think if Sawyer were reading books to impress people he wouldn't have bothered with Are You There God? It's Me, Margaret.


I think Jack feels just as 'lost' as Sawyer and they deal with it in different ways. Jacks a doctor who needs to think fast and act just as quick whereas Sawyer is the con man who analyzes the slightest variable in each situation. Bring Locke in to the mix a man of faith you have got one pretty formidable team right there.
That's an excellent analysis of the character's different approaches, keyser.

Here's what I don't get:

James/ Sawyer has been waiting for these guys to get back since three years; he's mentioned it several times, as late as the delivery scene last epi, where Jin reported that they hadn't found anything, and James told him to keep looking, as long as it took. So, it's clear he's been waiting for their return, looking forward to it, even.

So the reaction seemed a bit out of place to me tonight: I know he was surprised, who wouldn't be, even if he'd been hoping for them to come back. But I'd've thought he might've made some sort of contingency plan for just this: if Jack etc suddenly show up, what do we do? Instead, he looks worried and tense, and afraid of how to handle matters. Like the whole return came out of nowhere. I just found this a tad confusing, and would love to get alternate POVs to help me clear it up?

A contingency plan? Why? He was expecting Locke to bring them back and then Locke would tell them how to get back to their real time. He never expected them to come back without Locke and Locke to be dead.

I think he is worried because with Locke being dead he now realizes he is stuck in 1977. He was always hoping for Locke to come back with the O6 and Locke would then fix everything and they would end up in their right time. Now he realizes, he and all his friends are S.O.L.
100%
Sawyer is way to complacent and comfortable. His looking for the 06 was like Ben and the submarine. Just as Ben wanted people to have the illusion that they could come and go at will, Sawyer wants the other left behinders to believe there's a larger plan- that they're looking and waiting rather than settling in permanently. There is none, though, beyond his next Dharma beer and dinner with Juliet.


The plan was always to wait it out until Locke returned and he would then fix things. With Locke dead, Sawyer has no real plan now. nobody does.

I think, as well, that James - although he always had hope they'd come back - maybe doubted they ever would. At the beginning, I'm sure there were all sorts of plans about what will happen when the O5 return - but time passes, you get on with living and, in James case, very happily and productively. "Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans".

This is turning into a case of "be careful what you wish for" for James. The return of his friends, something he fervently wished for 3 years ago, threatens everything he has now. When people are threatened, most of them either cower or attack. James isn't the cowering type.

I think Sawyer was wrriten little out of plase, in this episode.

In all honesty what could Jack have done to get Sayid out? He knows nothing about the compound or the rules, regulations or procedures of the Dharma Initiative so anything he attempted would have been doomed to failure. And Phil already seems suspicious of him.

In all honesty what could Jack have done to get Sayid out? He knows nothing about the compound or the rules, regulations or procedures of the Dharma Initiative so anything he attempted would have been doomed to failure. And Phil already seems suspicious of him.

I don't think Jack was planning to get Sayid out. He was asking if Sawyer has a plan - which, apparently, he's still thinking about.

i think sawyer is waaaaay deep in the longest con ever.

i think sawyer is waaaaay deep in the longest con ever.

I'm not sure if Sawyer hasn't managed to con himself this time.

Jack's been trying to get back to this island for months, hoping to crash... and finally crashing... Being stalked by ghost dad. Its the guilt of abandonning his friends that ruined him and now he sees Sawyer sitting on his ***, waiting for Godot... (lit reference :-) when he thought they were in mortal danger. I'm surprised Jack has not been more upset than we have seen him. He MUST have changed!

It's easy to tell who among those posting in this thread have been in positions of power and leadership and those who haven't.

Sawyer is beyond loveable or redeemable.

He goes by his own motivations and that will land him in deep :censored:.

Looking at this from Jack's perspective, it's understandable that he would have questions. We know that Jack came back to the island because the lives of those he left behind were in danger. He has no idea what the left behinds have been going through. He just sees that they are now Dharma and appearing very comfortable. He doesn't know that they are looking for their people (I'm not convinced we are 100% sure who Jin is looking for) and awaiting Locke's return. If I'm Jack, Kate, Hurley, or Sayid, I'd be expecting the left behinds to be suffering and fighting for their lives. They obviously weren't, so I'd want an explanation.

Looking at this from Sawyer's perspective, it's understandable that he wasn't real forthcoming with info. There is a lot going on that he has to figure out. He's the guy in charge, and everyone is looking to him. He's probably not in the mood to sit down with Jack and rehash the last 3 years. He feels he has more important things to do right now. I thought it was impressive that he was able to come up with and implement his plan of integrating Jack, Hurley, and Kate so quickly.

As far as the two bickering at each other, it's no surprise. They have been like this since they first met. As soon as Sawyer said that he picked their jobs, I knew that Jack would be a janitor or something similar. As soon as this was confirmed, I knew Jack would have something to say to Sawyer about it. I'm sure there will be more disagreements between the two in the future. I do think that Jack is more than happy to cede the leadership role to Sawyer. He didn't want to be the leader at first. He felt guilty for leaving people behind. He didn't disagree with Sawyer when he said that Jack was responsible for many deaths, because he felt the same way. I definitely think he's relieved that he no longer has to worry about such things.

Sawyer is beyond loveable or redeemable.

He goes by his own motivations and that will land him in deep :censored:.

oh, and Jack doesn't in the end care only about Jack?

Or kate doesn't care about only kate for that matter? sheesh, double standard, much?

Sawyer...as loveable as a hateful drunk.

Sawyer...as loveable as a hateful drunk.

Sawyer's not the one with the drinking problem. And he's certainly no longer hateful; of all the Losties, he has changed the most. He is not the same man he was. He has won the respect and affection of the DI, and he cares about them. He cares equally for his fellow survivors, and he is doing his best to keep them safe. He's torn between old loyalties and new ones. There's no question, though, that he has become a good man.

I think Sawyer is as bas a Jack was, he thinks he's in control when he's not.
Hubris always hits hard in that case.

Sawyer...as loveable as a hateful drunk.

Actually, that was Jack. He was the one calling Kate incessantly for days, long after she even stopped taking his calls. He was the one driving around L.A. so drunk he couldn't walk straight. And oh yeah, he's the one who got suspended from his job for substance abuse. Jack.

Agreed. Jack was the one to become unhinged. His guilt ate at him. He has always thought of himself and believed his actions to be right.

Jack was the drunk. It is becoming difficult to see how the writers are going to redeem Jack. I believe alot of it will depend on the next few episodes. When things begin to unravel on the island, will Jack help James, or just take charge and act like his usual arrogant self? If we see Jack as more humble in the next couple shows, then we know the redemption journey is beginning.

But it is difficult because of his arrogant questioning with Sawyer. And Jack's "yeah" reply to the relief statement seemed both like a "whatever" remark and also may be seen as him letting go? Not sure yet.

But Jack has been the one with the major issues. I still see his selfish side, while James is doing what he can to hold it all together. Why? Because Jack was so set on escaping the island that he left people behind, especially Jin...that was pretty bad. Well, the next few episodes will show us where this rivalry goes...



Actually, that was Jack. He was the one calling Kate incessantly for days, long after she even stopped taking his calls. He was the one driving around L.A. so drunk he couldn't walk straight. And oh yeah, he's the one who got suspended from his job for substance abuse. Jack.

Jim is no saint and is no better.

I still remember his stunt back in Season One when he lied about if he had Shannon inhalers or not.

Looking at this from Jack's perspective, it's understandable that he would have questions. We know that Jack came back to the island because the lives of those he left behind were in danger. He has no idea what the left behinds have been going through. He just sees that they are now Dharma and appearing very comfortable. He doesn't know that they are looking for their people (I'm not convinced we are 100% sure who Jin is looking for) and awaiting Locke's return. If I'm Jack, Kate, Hurley, or Sayid, I'd be expecting the left behinds to be suffering and fighting for their lives. They obviously weren't, so I'd want an explanation.

I do look at it from Jack's perspective, or I have. I think on an unconscious level Jack expected everything to be the same as when he left, losties on the beach. But not just that but the interpersonal relationships as well. He also remembers Sawyer as he was and hasn't been there to see who he has become. Because of that I do think Jack expected to call the shots again. But seeing as how Jack knows absolutely nothing about the DI's rules, regulations, or procedures he should have differed to Sawyer a bit. And yes, Sawyer does resent Jack and possibly some of the other O6 because they left and most of their people died.

Jim is no saint and is no better.

I still remember his stunt back in Season One when he lied about if he had Shannon inhalers or not.You need to let this go. He didn't say he had the inhalers. They assumed he did, and when he didn't tell them where they were they TORTURED him. Not beat him up, not smack him around, Sayid w/ Jack's approval and help TORTURED him. He never had the inhalers, never said he did. Let. It. Go.

I don't get that to push up Sawyer, Jack has to go down!

Can't they both be *****. That's my take.

But, Sawyer who is supposedly
more secure about himself now
is the one who responded in the assiest way,
(if he's got a Jack inferiority complex its surely
not Jack's fault is it...)

but
I can see how fans of Lafleur may see it differently.

I still remember his stunt back in Season One when he lied about if he had Shannon inhalers or not.

This is Season Five, adam8023. Things have changed.

Jim is no saint and is no better.

I still remember his stunt back in Season One when he lied about if he had Shannon inhalers or not.
So, I am taking from your statements that you believe the following things:

1. People are incapable of changing or maturing.
2. People who have done wrongs are incapable of redeeming themselves.
3. People should never be forgiven for past misdeeds.
4. The morality of deception is relative based on who is doing the deceiving.

Adam, based on your line of reasoning, the above statements are irrefutable. And if you truly agree with all four of the above statements, well... that's really sad.

100%
I don't think either of them were that bad given where they are coming from. From Jack's perspective, he was the one that wanted everyone back on the island, he wanted this as he thought it was the only way to save everyone. They get back and find Sayid is in danger, Jack wants to rescue him, so he goes to see Sawyer, as he knows what's going on. Jack finds James playing happy families with Juliet, sitting there reading his book, looking all content whilst Sayid is languishing in a cell. It is understandable that Jack would be frustrated and concerned by this.

From the point of view of James, he knows the score and he knows he has to come up with something good in order to save Sayid, he is used to playing the long game/con, so he is content to sit back and think, this is how he works and usually it works for him. It may have been harsh to lay the deaths of everyone at Jacks feet, but I think he wanted to let Jack know that this time, he has to sit back and bide his time, or they would be putting all their lives at risk.

I'm going to stay out of this one. Jack did make a good point, but that is how Sawyer works, he needs to think. Sawyer also made a good point regarding jack and his leadership style, although blaming him for everyones death might be a bit harsh. What surprised me more was Jack saying ok and walking away, someone grew up in three years he finally learned to let something go. In fact Jack was a little too cool with everything, 'Oh we're in 1977, that's cool' I mean I was expecting something more in terms of disbelief out of at least Jack.

What surprised me more was Jack saying ok and walking away, someone grew up in three years he finally learned to let something go. In fact Jack was a little too cool with everything, 'Oh we're in 1977, that's cool' I mean I was expecting something more in terms of disbelief out of at least Jack.I assumed Jack was going off to do his own planning at that point. I know he always said he didn't want to be a leader, but I think he's having a hard time now not being the one to call the shots. Of course, he could be accepting Sawyer's leadership and way of working, but it's hard for me to imagine Jack being that passive. Guess we'll see!

I agree that Jack showed poor judgment in asking Phil the security guy where LaFleur lived on the very first night he's in Dharmaville. It's clear the plan was to play it cool and not reveal that the Losties knew each other, and I think Jack's action put that at risk.

I also think he showed signs of the old Jack by going in and saying he didn't know where to start about what he wanted to talk about, bringing up Sayid in an accusatory way, and being sarcastic about Sawyer sitting there reading. He does look like he wants to be the main mover and shaker again, even though he does NOT know the lay of the land there yet.

He's really not giving Sawyer credit for being able to handle the situation, despite Sawyer having just handled HIS (Jack's and co's) situation. So to me, that's why Sawyer let him have it. I thought the dressing down Jack got was harsh but not undeserved. He should have trusted Sawyer to handle things and realized he's not the one in charge in this scenario.

Is Sawyer getting a little self-righteous and hubristic? Maybe. As others have pointed out, he has some resentment about all the deaths that have happened, not only before Jack's departure but after it. He could have said a lot more than he did in response to Jack's claim that he "got them off the island." (What, six people? What about everyone else?)

Plus he'd spent his day frantically working to sneak in Jack, Kate, and Hurley, so it probably did not feel good to be second-guessed. I imagine he is also worried about the very real danger the O5's arrival has brought, as well as about the threat to the cozy life he and Juliet have established, which I think may be a subconscious type of uneasiness. The Dharma honeymoon's over, thanks to the O5, who, Sawyer had assumed, would've at least brought Locke and some answers.

Jack on the other hand seemed at least as touching as he was irritating to me. He's finally accepted his destiny and is seemingly rarin' to go, only he doesn't know what to do. Can't blame him for attempting to get some more info, although he also could've given more info, such as the fact that Ben was on the plane. And I do think he went about it in the old Jack way, trying to make the plans and run the show.

IMO Jack did look hesitant and humbled on his way out the door, and I felt sorry for him. I think he will rise to the occasion on the island and fulfill his destiny. He's got a unique role to play.

Both Jack and Sawyer are making some unjustified assumptions. Neither of them is quite the person he was when they were together last. Lost loves conflict and this scenario gives them the opportunity for plenty of it. But hopefully by S6 if not before, Jack and Sawyer will be united in the truly epic battle against the forces of evil that is yet to come.

1. Everyone? He left like 20 Losties back at the beach and not to mention he left Jin on the boat to die. He knew full well and left Jin to die.

Riiight. Because Jack was chopper pilot and was able to force Lapidus to land. GMAB.

Everything horrible in season 4 and season 5 till now has been Jack's fault. If he never made that radio call the frieghter people would never have been there to kill everyone and then everyone wouldn't have been left behind. Jack was told repeatedly not to call the frieghter and he did. That is Jack's fault. Everything that happened since then has been Jack's fault. Had he not called the frieghter like Locke and Ben said, all of those people would not have died. Simple as that. So you're just going to forget and ignore that Naomi was already ON the island having parachuted out of the helicopter, probably piloted by Lapidus? Which means that Naomi and her mercs had already FOUND the island LOOOOOONG before Jack ever made the call and brought the mercs to the island?

Jack came in and attacked Sawyer about him sitting around reading instead of doing something about Sayid. Even though Sawyer was already taking care of it. Instead of asking Sawyer Jack came in and made a snark comment about Sawyer reading a book instead of acting. Attacked? Um, no. So, you're saying that Sawyer got his feelings hurt over a book comment and decided to lace into Jack about killing people. This coming from a man who actually DID murder three people?

Jack at this point has no place to question Sawyer. But Sawyer can demand answers from Daniel and Charlotte, right? And he can use violence to get his answers, right? That's okay. Jack can ask any questions he wants.

In just this episode Sawyer saved Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid. Does he get an thanks from Jack for that, no. Yeah, well I'm still waiting for a thank you from Sawyer for Jack saving his butt in Alcatraz and Sawyer never getting off of his to go rescue him, so whatever.

Fact is Jack is jumping into a situation he has no clue about and if messed up will get them all killed.Which is exactly why he is asking questions. I'm not seeing the problem here.

Jack just needs to sit back and follow Sawyer's lead because for the past 3 years Sawyer has kept them all alive and just saved 4 of the 5 who returned.

Sawyer was the Head of Security for three years, Havok. He was not the leader of Dharmaville. He arrived in an ALREADY established society and got a job. He has a control room that monitor's the perimeter so if bells and alarms go off, he can react. Since there's a truce already in place, I'm not sure who he needed to keep them all alive from. AND Sawyer could have hopped onto the submarine anytime he wanted and head back to the good 'ol U.S. of A. Sawyer's life in Dharmaville the past three years has been nothing like what life was like in the first 100+ days after the crash of 815. Let's be really clear about that.

Jack did not go back to save everyone. Jack went back for Jack. He explained this at the end of season 3. He said he rides the planes in hopes of it crashing back on the island and he doesn't care if everyone on it dies as long as he gets back to the island. Jack has become a mess since leaving the island. He is not the heroic leader he once was.Yeah, you go ahead and ignore the actual episodes and dialogue and I'll watch the television show called Lost. Ben asked Jack what did John say that convinced him to go back, and Jack said that he was told that Sawyer, Juliet, and everyone they left behind would die if he didn't return. As for Jack's comments about the plane crashing, he was stoned out of his mind, and it's funny how you completely ignore him asking Ben "What happens to the other people on this plane?" and Ben responded "Who cares?"

Jack was a mess after leaving the island, and he's still an heroic man. He's just not perfect.

Sawyer is still an :censored:.

He seems abusive at times and a complete :badwords:.

Sawyer is still an :censored:.

He seems abusive at times and a complete :badwords:. What happened to the "I'm not that into you" section?

Apologies.

I'm just baffled during this whole ordeal.

Apologies.

I'm just baffled during this whole ordeal.I understand that it's hard to see how someone can't love a character that you do. But we all have to try to listen to others' points of view and try to understand why they feel that way. Otherwise there's no point in people posting. Chances are slim that we'll actually ever change people's minds once they've made them up. But please allow others to be as loyal to their favorites as you are to yours. At least we're all in agreement that this is an amazing show! :smile:

Ordeal? It's just an episode discussion.

I think other posters are right, Jack should not have aroused suspicions by trying to see La Fleur, and he should not have been so ungrateful and insulting in Sawyer's own home, after the day was spent trying to get them into Dharma safely, and keep Sayid alive. Then again Jack spat all over Sawyer's sacrifice, so maybe it's just a matter of two alpha dogs being unwilling to give up the same bone.

Still, I can't help but feel that in a few eps, Sawyer will see that Jack didn't exactly have it easy in the earlier seasons. Sometimes all you can do is react and hope for the best. I still think that eventually Jack will be the one urging people to wake up and get active in trying to get back to the correct time.

Sawyer will be resistant, but his Dharma honeymoon period is nearing its end. Soon they are gonna turn on them, since paranoia still seems high regarding possible Hostile infiltration.

Ordeal? It's just an episode discussion.


Real life ordeals.


Anyway, I did not think Jack was not as rude towards Sawyer.

Riiight. Because Jack was chopper pilot and was able to force Lapidus to land. GMAB.

So you're just going to forget and ignore that Naomi was already ON the island having parachuted out of the helicopter, probably piloted by Lapidus? Which means that Naomi and her mercs had already FOUND the island LOOOOOONG before Jack ever made the call and brought the mercs to the island?

Attacked? Um, no. So, you're saying that Sawyer got his feelings hurt over a book comment and decided to lace into Jack about killing people. This coming from a man who actually DID murder three people?

But Sawyer can demand answers from Daniel and Charlotte, right? And he can use violence to get his answers, right? That's okay. Jack can ask any questions he wants.

Yeah, well I'm still waiting for a thank you from Sawyer for Jack saving his butt in Alcatraz and Sawyer never getting off of his to go rescue him, so whatever.

Which is exactly why he is asking questions. I'm not seeing the problem here.



Sawyer was the Head of Security for three years, Havok. He was not the leader of Dharmaville. He arrived in an ALREADY established society and got a job. He has a control room that monitor's the perimeter so if bells and alarms go off, he can react. Since there's a truce already in place, I'm not sure who he needed to keep them all alive from. AND Sawyer could have hopped onto the submarine anytime he wanted and head back to the good 'ol U.S. of A. Sawyer's life in Dharmaville the past three years has been nothing like what life was like in the first 100+ days after the crash of 815. Let's be really clear about that.

Yeah, you go ahead and ignore the actual episodes and dialogue and I'll watch the television show called Lost. Ben asked Jack what did John say that convinced him to go back, and Jack said that he was told that Sawyer, Juliet, and everyone they left behind would die if he didn't return. As for Jack's comments about the plane crashing, he was stoned out of his mind, and it's funny how you completely ignore him asking Ben "What happens to the other people on this plane?" and Ben responded "Who cares?"

Jack was a mess after leaving the island, and he's still an heroic man. He's just not perfect.


Maxum,

I'm with you. I'll go ahead and watch Lost! It really is better than making so many things up or else conveniently "forgetting" what actually happened. There's alot of that going around lately!:rolleyes:

Just thank you for your responses and posts. I do appreciate them!

Sawyer is trying to cover their butts, but it's an almost certainty that even if it isn't too late, Jack or Kate or Sayid will do something to get them noticed, and get all the Dharma kids after them with torches and pitchforks.

You left out the biggest gap in their story. How does someone of Hurley's girth get in and out of the sub? How is he even considered Dharma material? There's a lot of things that can blow their cover.

I have to side with Sawyer on this. He is trying to hold this thing together. On the one hand, he has been waiting for them to return but on the other hand, he's not sure what help they are under the current situation. It's a delicate situation. I don't think Jack was overreacting. He has to ask sometime. What are they going to do? What does he need to know? How can he help? But Sawyer isn't sure. How could he imagine how they would return? As much as he's been through, it hasn't really prepared him for predicting the next crisis. The stress is showing. When Hurley brought up the business of the purge, it was just more bad news he didn't need to hear. It reminded me of the scene in Le Fleur when the two security guys knock on his door. Every other thing that happens from here on is just another "son of a ..."

Exactly..you pretty much supported everything I said up to this point. You agree Jack is a control freak in 'his situations', and this is exactly the thing that is a powder keg in this situation. Uh, not really. You feel that Jack deserves to be kept in the dark. Jack wanting to be in control of his situations is as normal and human as breathing. Sawyer is no different.

Look at this from a purely situational point of view, knowing Jack must fix everything, Sawyer is 100% correct for keeping him in the dark. Jack won't act without information, but once he gets the information, makes a decision on what the right course of action is, he will put that course into play come hell or high water. So the less he knows, the more he will sit and let Sawyer try and bring them all in safely. No offense, but that's a terrible argument. Jack won't act without information so it makes sense for Sawyer to keep Jack in the dark to keep him from taking action? Am I getting that right? That's just not going to happen - ever.

Sorry..didn't realize there was room on this show for only one hothead :rolleyes: Yes, Jack is a hothead when he gets locked into a course of action. Pigheaded refers to Jack. Hotheaded refers to Sawyer. Jack won't let something go once he's got it into his head. Sawyer reacts to anything, which is why it was so ridiculous that he called Jack a man who reacts, but yet, that term doesn't apply to Sawyer. BOTH men react and BOTH men are thinkers. Sawyer was pretty full of himself.

The freighter is an excellent example. There's still a bit of room for interpretation how the whole freighter incident played out, but I don't think they came there to help the 815ers back home, as Daniel told us numerous times. You forget that Sayid agree with Jack. I don't get this line of thinking at all that somehow being told that the freighter was not there to rescue them means they could not get off the island. If the freighter people refuse to rescue them or take them home, why is TAKING the freighter not an option? THAT'S what Jack and Sayid planned to do. They were going to play nice, but if they weren't going to be taken home, they were going to take the freighter. I like that plan.

Yes a lot of people with Locke got killed, because of their proximity to Ben. Partially true, but it's also because Locke, Sawyer, and Hurley sat around and waited for death. I mean, seriously. If you KNOW mercs are on the island to kill you because Ben told you so, would you sit around playing Risk and horseshoes and watchign Xanadu? They were TOLD Ben was the target and yet they took no precautions. That stupidity and the deaths of those who died are on them.

That was a tossup...either group could have had the casualties. No. See above.

Jack went from "I don't trust him with anyone but me" to handing him over to Locke in the space of an episode or so. If Jack had stuck with his original assessment and held on to Ben, it's likely the beach camp would have been wiped out. Possible, but I don't think so. Jack knew that Ben was a brilliant manipulator because Jack witnessed it first hand. He wanted Ben with him because he wanted to handle Ben. After everyone made their own choices to follow their respective teams - which Jack did not get angry about, btw - Ben asked to go with John, and John didn't have a problem with having Ben with him, even though Ben shot him and left him to die in a pit. You get what you ask for, know what I mean?

Keamy and crew shot first and asked questions later, no reason to think it wouldn't have been the same situation had possession of Ben been reversed. Maybe, but the groups had very different methods of acting against the threat of the freighter. Locke, Sawyer, Ben, and Hurley chose to sit around and wait. Jack, Sayid, Kate, Juliet, and the rest of the crew group chose to take action, and as a result, they were able to get onto Lapidus' chopper and head straight for the freighter. They were already off island to initiate their escape plan. They were also learning about the time differentials, via Daniel's rocket. Things were getting done with Jack's camp at the beach and on the freighter. I'd rather be proactive.

Jack still does not get this. He showed that tonight."I got them off this island!" Everyone knows it's not quite so clearcut as that, Jack included. Once Jack gets locked into a plan that he feels is right, there is no dissuading him, even in the face of logical contradictions. That's what I meant to say. I think after Sawyer slammed Jack with 'you killed everyone' or whatever he said, that Jack affirming that he DID get people off the island is not unreasonable. Was Jack wrong about his statement? Just as you stated that it's not as clear cut as that, neither is Sawyer's statement that Jack got people killed. Many contributed to their own deaths, like Jin, Desmond and Michael never warning people about the bomb, for one.

I've never been a conman, but it's not hard to imagine the attributes required to do the job. High level of intelligence, creative thinking, problem solving coupled with calculation, long term planning, risk assessment, and situational assements, acting fast when you need to, and taking the time to think things through when you don't. You don't think a spinal surgeon who graduated faster than anyone in his class would not have these exact same qualities?

Jack is the very antithesis of flexibility. Jack has a lot of good qualities, and a lot of good leadership qualities, but anything to an excess is a bad thing, and Jack does EVERYTHING to an excess except calculate. He's great at devising attack plans, and even has his subtle moments, but he has the habit of acting when he gets just enough information. If Sawyer laid everything out on the table, Jack would begin scheming and would be an uncontrollable factor at that point. I don't know how you can make the statement that Jack is not flexible when he has deferred to Sayid's judgement in every single case that I can recall. Yes, Jack can overreact at times, but so does Sawyer. You seem to be saying that Sawyer is the epitomy of calm and levelheadedness and that's. just. wrong.

Eh...it could go either way in my book. I don't know how you can misinterpret the stunned look on Sawyer's face after Jack's response. I mean he was STUNNED. I wish I had a picture to post.

It's not a monarchy. I don't think anyone is desiring control for any kind of despotic reason. You mentioned Sawyer keeping things under control, and I pointed out that it was pretty easy to do in 1974 Dharma, that's all. Life in that community is not even remotely the same as the life and death struggle of the 815ers.

In a tough situation a leader will emerge. Everyone except Locke let Jack do it, How can you possibly make that statement when it was Locke who TOLD Jack to become the leader?

Locke had a different philosophical slant than Jack did and they butted heads resulting in a splitting of the groups ultimately. Again, let's be clear as to why they butted heads. Locke had a very different opinion about how the island should be revered. He knocked Sayid unconscious. He drugged and tied up Boone because he felt he needed it. He lied about the Hatch and lead everyone to believe that the boar had headed north, even though they needed the food. He lied to Jack about Boone's injuries to protect the secret of the hatch (which Sayid eventually got out of him) and on and on. Jack and Locke's issues were about a lot more than just philosophy.

Originally Posted by enigma420 - Once Locke disappeared, another leader had to emerge. Sawyer stepped up to the plate, and I think you have to give him props. I agree. In fact, I commented quite extensively how much I enjoyed Sawyer in LaFleur. He seemed grounded, focused, part of the community, and generally a good guy who had changed.

So again, looking at it situationally because I don't have a vested interest in any of these characters, You say that, but you seem to clearly have a preference. That's fine, btw.

Jack's wisest course of action would be to sit back and let Sawyer work it out, Actually, Jack did EXACTLY that. I'm missing how that's not clear to you. Jack took every direction and order that Sawyer asked of him the minute they saw each other. Jack didn't even give Sawyer any flack for his janitor position. I'm convinced it was Sawyer because how could they have any aptitude tests for Jack if he never took any? Someone had to set that up. Jack was amused and not the least bit upset. My point is that Jack DID sit back and let Sawyer work things out - until Sayid. Then he had questions. Why can't he ask them? I don't get it.

and save any pissing contest for later. Sawyer really started the pissing contest by comparing his leadership to Jack's. Let's be fair about that fact.

But it's not going to happen...as I stated earlier, I think the threads have already begun to unravel for them. Which is unfortunate. I did really like the new Sawyer in LaFleur, and Iwas hoping that Jack and him would work together and become friends. Clearly, Darlton likes these two guys fighting. It's a shame really.

Your bottom line, you're 100% right. Sawyer CAN'T protect them from anything, but is that any reason not to try? It's a small island. There are two factions. Hostiles, and Dharma. Where exactly do you suggest they go? What exactly do you suggest they do? Jump on the sub and live out their life in the late 70s? Seriously...who the hell would want to live through the 80s two times?Hell yeah. Sawyer has the knowledge of the next 30 years of history. He knows about Bill Gates, Google, IBM, and all the other technologies about to be discovered. Sawyer could be a gazillionaire living it up at Studio 54 and the Playboy mansion. Now com'on, do you see Sawyer passing that life up for sitting on a small island in a Dharma cottage? No frakin way! :biggrin:

My point is that Jack DID sit back and let Sawyer work things out - until Sayid. Then he had questions. Why can't he ask them? I don't get it.


Because in similar situations Jack should seek council. Sawyer, on the other hand, is a one man strategic consulting firm. :rolleyes:

Ordeal? It's just an episode discussion.

I think other posters are right, Jack should not have aroused suspicions by trying to see La Fleur, and he should not have been so ungrateful and insulting in Sawyer's own home, after the day was spent trying to get them into Dharma safely, and keep Sayid alive. Then again Jack spat all over Sawyer's sacrifice, so maybe it's just a matter of two alpha dogs being unwilling to give up the same bone.

Still, I can't help but feel that in a few eps, Sawyer will see that Jack didn't exactly have it easy in the earlier seasons. Sometimes all you can do is react and hope for the best. I still think that eventually Jack will be the one urging people to wake up and get active in trying to get back to the correct time.

Sawyer will be resistant, but his Dharma honeymoon period is nearing its end. Soon they are gonna turn on them, since paranoia still seems high regarding possible Hostile infiltration.

Agree 100% Zoriah.

Ok so you are told your friends lives are in danger and you have to go back to a place full of people dying, a monster, polar bears etc that you so desperately tried to leave in the first place to save them. And the method you're told to go back defies all laws of physics and logic yet you do it anyway. You get back and find out you're 30 years in the past and the friends who were supposedly in danger are playing house. How would you react?
Quoted for the absolute irrefutable truth of it.

Riiight. Because Jack was chopper pilot and was able to force Lapidus to land. GMAB.

So you're just going to forget and ignore that Naomi was already ON the island having parachuted out of the helicopter, probably piloted by Lapidus? Which means that Naomi and her mercs had already FOUND the island LOOOOOONG before Jack ever made the call and brought the mercs to the island?

Attacked? Um, no. So, you're saying that Sawyer got his feelings hurt over a book comment and decided to lace into Jack about killing people. This coming from a man who actually DID murder three people?

But Sawyer can demand answers from Daniel and Charlotte, right? And he can use violence to get his answers, right? That's okay. Jack can ask any questions he wants.

Yeah, well I'm still waiting for a thank you from Sawyer for Jack saving his butt in Alcatraz and Sawyer never getting off of his to go rescue him, so whatever.

Which is exactly why he is asking questions. I'm not seeing the problem here.



Sawyer was the Head of Security for three years, Havok. He was not the leader of Dharmaville. He arrived in an ALREADY established society and got a job. He has a control room that monitor's the perimeter so if bells and alarms go off, he can react. Since there's a truce already in place, I'm not sure who he needed to keep them all alive from. AND Sawyer could have hopped onto the submarine anytime he wanted and head back to the good 'ol U.S. of A. Sawyer's life in Dharmaville the past three years has been nothing like what life was like in the first 100+ days after the crash of 815. Let's be really clear about that.

Yeah, you go ahead and ignore the actual episodes and dialogue and I'll watch the television show called Lost. Ben asked Jack what did John say that convinced him to go back, and Jack said that he was told that Sawyer, Juliet, and everyone they left behind would die if he didn't return. As for Jack's comments about the plane crashing, he was stoned out of his mind, and it's funny how you completely ignore him asking Ben "What happens to the other people on this plane?" and Ben responded "Who cares?"

Jack was a mess after leaving the island, and he's still an heroic man. He's just not perfect.


1. Actually Jack tried to forc Lapidus to not go back to the island. Maybe you forgot the scene where Jack is screaming at Lapidus to not go back to the island no matter what. Even though they are almost out of gas Jack is still screaming to not go back to the island.

2. Namoi was on the island but as she and Minkowski explained, unless she made radio contact her crew would not be able to find the island. She said unless we transmit, the frieghter will never be able to find us. So no, without Jack making the call, they never would have found the island. They would still be looking.

3. Sawyers jab was worse, but how does that excuse Jack's jab? Oh let's not forget Jack's attempted murder of Locke in cold blood when he was unarmed. Its a double edge sword here. Had there been a bullet in that gun, Jack would have executed Locke in front of everyone. So Jack is not different then Sawyer in thie department.

4. Jack can not expect answers from Sawyer because how many times has Jack not given Sawyer answers? Its a 2 way street. Jack has never been forth coming with answers. Do we not remember Live Together Die Alone where jack told no one they were walking into a trap to possibly get killed? The fact is, Jack along with most of the Losties who have been in charge have always kept the whole truth to themselfs. So its no different now. Jack can ask any question he wants but he shouldn't expect answers from people if he lies to them when people ask him questions.

5. Did Jack not say, don't come back for me? Then when Jack was saved by Sayid, did he not tell Kate I really ment don't come back for me? Can't have it 2 ways here.

6. Well 2 episodes ago Sawyer prevented a war between the Hostiles and Dharma. That's pretty big. Also as seen 2 episodes ago, the Hostlies dont follow the truce to well. I mean did they not kill Amy's 1st husband and tried to kill her? Also if Dharma ever found out they were lying they would kill them. Also why go back to the island when Locke said wait her till I come back and then I will fix everything? Would you leave the island if you were Sawyer. Your in 1977. If you leave the island you will probobly never get back to it. Oh and the man who has been right on almost everything told you he will come back and fix everything. So, would you levae the island? Oh and just to get something straight I've never had an issue with jack's leadership in season 1,2 or in season 3 except for the last epsidoes. Once he became utterly obsessed with leaving the island, so much so he started making sacrifices with people's lives, then that's where I have the issue.

7. Jack booked a flight the same night he saw Locke in the hospital. Right after Locke told him his dad was alive. Should we just ignore that? Just because Jack told Ben the reason he was going back does not mean it was the real one. I mean its insane to think someone on this show would lie, right? Stoned or not, Jack still thought those things. What, just because he was stoned he gets a pass for those comments? Your right, jack asked about everyone else on the plane, but did he do anything about it? Did he ask more about it? Did he even look that concerned? Should we also ignore the fact when Hurley told Jack they need to go back to the island and Jack said they are NEVER going back? If Jack was so worried about everyone else on the island, then answer me why he didn;t do a single thing for 3 years to try and get back to the island to save everyone? Not only did he not try, but when it was brought up to him about going back, he said we are NEVER going back.



You seem to be going with the train of thought that Jack has always been a righteous man on this show and he can do no wrong. I don't know why? Jack was a great leader and a truely great man for 3 seasons. Since then he has slowly sunk into a pit of obsession, depravity, self loathing and despair. I really don't know how you can not see the difference between Jack of the first 3 seasons and Jack of season 4 and 5?
100%
Maxum,

I'm with you. I'll go ahead and watch Lost! It really is better than making so many things up or else conveniently "forgetting" what actually happened. There's alot of that going around lately!:rolleyes:

Just thank you for your responses and posts. I do appreciate them!

Its a 2 way street here. No one charecter on this show is the perfect person... well maybe Jin.

The writers consistantly change our perspectives on charecters. One minute they get us to love them and the next they get us to hate them.

Jin- season 1 he was the biggest jerk and now he's the most compassionate guy there is.

Charlie- He was a crazed maniac in season 2 but by the end of season 3 we were all in love with him again.

Jack- The heroic leader for 3 seasons and then he became a drug addicted, pill popping jerk.

Sawyer- For 3 years he was the outside jerk and now for season 4 and till now people have come to like him.

Sun- Look at how cold and evil she has become since season 1.

Sawyer sure has a selective memory. Jack saved people's lives repeatedly during his as leader, even though he was pretty clear he didn't want the job in the first place. And Sawyer seems to have forgotten that if it wasn't for some fancy footwork on Jack's part, his brains would be all over a polar bear cage on Alcatraz. Did Jack make some mistakes at the end? Maybe, but did Sawyer or anyone else step up with some better suggestions? Locke was pretty vocal in the fusies need to stay, but he had 0% cred by that point, and stabbing an unarmed girl in the back was the topper.

Still, as things stand, Jack should let sleeping dogs lie. And the funny thing is, as Jack walks away from Sawyer's house, I thought I saw a little expression of relief on his face...

1. Actually Jack tried to forc Lapidus to not go back to the island. Maybe you forgot the scene where Jack is screaming at Lapidus to not go back to the island no matter what. Even though they are almost out of gas Jack is still screaming to not go back to the island.

Yes, I do remember that scene. Because if they run out of gas, they can't refuel on the island. They CAN refuel on the freighter and go BACK for those on the island.

Namoi was on the island but as she and Minkowski explained, unless she made radio contact her crew would not be able to find the island. She said unless we transmit, the frieghter will never be able to find us. So no, without Jack making the call, they never would have found the island. They would still be looking.

So, you're saying that the chopper made it to the island, dropped Naomi out of the chopper, and flew back to the freighter, but couldn't figure out where the island was without Jack saying "hello" even though Daniel was on the freighter and who had been to the island before and understood to stay on a specific vector and not deviate from it? I don't think so.

Sawyers jab was worse, but how does that excuse Jack's jab? It doesn't, but Jack made a snarky comment about a book and Sawyer just laced into him about killing people. He knows Jack has a guilt complex and he just stabbed the knife in and twisted. He was just nasty, and it was not called for. I was hoping Sawyer had changed.

Oh let's not forget Jack's attempted murder of Locke in cold blood when he was unarmed. I don't think we should discuss any murders of unarmed men. Sawyer murdered three. Jack? 0.

Its a double edge sword here. Had there been a bullet in that gun, Jack would have executed Locke in front of everyone. Well, it didn't happen and Locke WAS murdering people. It's not like Jack walked up to an innocent person and tried to kill him.

So Jack is not different then Sawyer in thie department. Sawyer murdered three people in cold blood, so yes, Jack is different from Sawyer. Sawyer should have learned from the first murder, but he kept going.

Jack can not expect answers from Sawyer because how many times has Jack not given Sawyer answers? Its a 2 way street. That's a poor argument. Jack has a right to ask questions and so does Sawyer. Not answering the questions is dumb, regardless of who's doing it.

Jack has never been forth coming with answers. Do we not remember Live Together Die Alone where jack told no one they were walking into a trap to possibly get killed? Does anyone actually watch Lost? I swear, these myths take on a life of their own. Jack wanted to first confront Michael when Sayid told him about Michael's duplicity. Jack listened. Then Jack wanted to tell Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley about Michael, and Sayid stopped him again because he had a plan. This is another one of those myths where Jack never listens to anyone, even though he always listens to Sayid. Anyway, Jack does as Sayid asks and doesn't confront Michael or tell Kate, Sawyer and Hurley. But once they are in the jungle, Jack confronts Michael and tells Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley EVERYTHING. They then have a choice to make, they can either head back to the beach or continue on with Jack. They chose to go with Jack. When the plan blew up in their faces, Jack never said it was Sayid's plan that got blown to hell. He took the heat.

The fact is, Jack along with most of the Losties who have been in charge have always kept the whole truth to themselfs. So its no different now. Jack can ask any question he wants but he shouldn't expect answers from people if he lies to them when people ask him questions. As I said, not asking questions and not giving answers is a poor argument.

Did Jack not say, don't come back for me? Then when Jack was saved by Sayid, did he not tell Kate I really ment don't come back for me? Can't have it 2 ways here. Are you serious? Even Kate didn't believe that crap. Who WANTS to stay in captivity? Jack later told Kate that he didn't want her to come after him to protect her. He said this in defense of Sawyer, ironically, when Sawyer didn't want Kate coming with him. Remember when Kate asked Jack "Why are you defending Sawyer? He'd never do it for you?"

Jack saved Sawyer's life, and Sawyer's response was "Doc's on his own" and "It's every man for himself." He meant it too because when he got back to the beach, he went straight for his porn stash had some beers and hung out with the boys. Jack was left to rot.

Well 2 episodes ago Sawyer prevented a war between the Hostiles and Dharma. That's pretty big. Well considering Sawyer CREATED the problem, he should have fixed it, no?

Also as seen 2 episodes ago, the Hostlies dont follow the truce to well. I mean did they not kill Amy's 1st husband and tried to kill her? We don't know the details of what went on in that field. Why did they want to kill them? Why did Amy give up her husband's body as a sacrifice? Why did they want it?

Also if Dharma ever found out they were lying they would kill them. You forget that Dharma has access to a submarine and can leave at anytime. Not exactly a "stranded" situation.

Also why go back to the island when Locke said wait her till I come back and then I will fix everything? Would you leave the island if you were Sawyer. Your in 1977. If you leave the island you will probobly never get back to it. After three years of waiting? Yeah, I might.

Oh and the man who has been right on almost everything told you he will come back and fix everything. How exactly is Locke right about everything? He doesn't even know anything. He's being led around by Ben and Widmore. Like Desmond said, they may all end up being pawns in the end.

So, would you levae the island? Oh and just to get something straight I've never had an issue with jack's leadership in season 1,2 or in season 3 except for the last epsidoes. Once he became utterly obsessed with leaving the island, so much so he started making sacrifices with people's lives, then that's where I have the issue. When did he make sacrifices with people's lives? Even at the very end of season four, Jack got out of bed, after an adhoc surgery, even though he was bleeding and weak and headed out into the jungle to search for Sayid and Desmond because he thought they might be in danger. Why didn't he just take the next boat to the freighter and sav himself? He also crashed into the pacific and gave Desmond CPR. Jack has been trying to save lives for four seasons straight, and those who died on the freighter died because of Ben (and Desmond, Jin and Michael).

Jack booked a flight the same night he saw Locke in the hospital. Right after Locke told him his dad was alive. Should we just ignore that? Just because Jack told Ben the reason he was going back does not mean it was the real one. I mean its insane to think someone on this show would lie, right? So let me get this straight, you have actual dialogue of Jack telling Ben why he wants to go back, but that should be ignored. Then you have NO scene where Jack books a flight, only Ben's word, but THAT scene is legitimate. :rolleyes: I'll take the scene where I actually heard Jack give his reason over Ben's manipulation anyday. It's also supported by what Locke told Kate that everyone would die. I'm guessing that Locke tried several times with Jack, not just once.

Your right, jack asked about everyone else on the plane, but did he do anything about it? Did he ask more about it? Did he even look that concerned? So if he's concerned about the safety of others, he's not REALLY concerned and if he doesn't ask about their safety, then it PROVES he's not concerned. That's a win/win for you, huh?

Should we also ignore the fact when Hurley told Jack they need to go back to the island and Jack said they are NEVER going back? If Jack was so worried about everyone else on the island, then answer me why he didn;t do a single thing for 3 years to try and get back to the island to save everyone? Not only did he not try, but when it was brought up to him about going back, he said we are NEVER going back. And yet in the end, Jack was the ONLY person who was going back. Woulda, shoulda, coulda. It's a person's actions, in the end, that seals the deal, and Jack was the only person who was willing to go back and he tried to convince Kate, Sayid, and Hurley to return. Whether it took one day or three years, Jack was going back, and he was willing to return alone if he had to. If Jack had NEVER returned, then you would have a valid argument.

You seem to be going with the train of thought that Jack has always been a righteous man on this show and he can do no wrong.Pot meet kettle.

For the record, Jack screws up plenty. He is pigheaded and stubborn. He does get upset and overreact, and he does act impetuously at times. He has made bad decisions, and he has been wrong. The reason I defend him so stubbornly is exactly because those examples listed above. No matter what the character does, he's wrong. For me, Jack tries to do the right thing, and he tries to do right by other people, and he will risk his life to do it. Is he always successful? No, but he tries and that's why I like him, and also because Matthew Fox is fantastic in the role.

I don't know why? Jack was a great leader and a truely great man for 3 seasons. Since then he has slowly sunk into a pit of obsession, depravity, self loathing and despair. Yes, I can agree that he became obsessive, self-loathing and despairing. Depravity? Uh, no.

I really don't know how you can not see the difference between Jack of the first 3 seasons and Jack of season 4 and 5? Who said I can't see the difference? I just don't see Jack as a horrific human being in season 4 and 5 as you do. I see a broken man who's building himself back up. Why isn't Jack allowed to fall and rise again?

I'm pretty sure he expected Locke to return with a plan since he successfully stopped the time-tripping. The writers gave us the scene at the well where Sawyer says they'll wait as long as it takes. Then the scene where Sawyer tells Richard he's waiting for Locke, and then in this episode he asks immediately about Locke. I think his only plan was to keep the I5 safe until Locke's return. Since that didn't work out, he's reading a book, and thinking about what to do next.

This is offtopic..but someone has to say it. Your avatar is amazing. :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::eek2:

Here is my take on the exchange.

Jack is visibly thrown when Juliet opens the door. He is so happy to see his old friend. Jack needs a friend right now, and Juliet has always been supportive of him. And maybe he still has unresolved feelings for her but then comes....

door in the face when he sees Sawyer sitting on her couch and he realizes that Juliet lives with him. The smile he gave says it all. If we could read his thoughts I bet they went something like this...

Jack: ." I can't believe this, of course it's Sawyer, it's always fracking SAWYER!!!!!!!!":biggrin: Why does every woman I fall for have a thing for this guy?
I risk everything coming back to this God forsaken island, join the dharma initiative as a toilet cleaner and oh yeah I'm stuck in the 70's!!!! And here I find him drinking Dharma beer and reading!!!!"

I think Jack had every intention of playing nice when he first got there. But he's only human. Sawyer just has a way of getting to Jack. But the exchange doesn't stop there. Let's just say I believe the flower sniffing Sawyer is not all that he seems haha!!!

So when Jack tries to question Sawyer's plans, Sawyer imediately takes the defense. His thinking probably went something like this,

Sawyer:" Who the HELL does this guy think he is coming here after THREE YEARS and questioning my leadership ability??? These are MY people, not his and I'm going to show him who the new Sheriff is in town!!!

And out pops the very vindictive side of Sawyer who always knows exactly what to say to really hurt a person. Jack already feels bad and overly responsible for any death on the island. Sawyer knows this and uses it to lash out at Jack. Flower sniffing Sawyer has left the building!!!

What Sawyer was not expecting was for Jack to back down and say, yeah it is a relief to not be the one in charge. Now you can be the one who had to make the tough choices and take the blame when you make the wrong choices.

And then of course it ends with the porch scene, so we could all understand once and for all what is really eating at these two. Ah yes Kate! Good ol Kate the object of their eternal grudge fest. So many levels, so fun to watch.:)

oh, and Jack doesn't in the end care only about Jack?

Or kate doesn't care about only kate for that matter? sheesh, double standard, much?

LOL..all the time. Fun posts to read for sure though. :D
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Jim is no saint and is no better.

I still remember his stunt back in Season One when he lied about if he had Shannon inhalers or not.

After three years we get it dawg. If you're physically attracted to a character, they can do no wrong. BACK TO THE SHIP THREAD WITH YOU.
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Riiight. Because Jack was chopper pilot and was able to force Lapidus to land. GMAB.


Lapidus is the kind of guy who is smart enough to know when he doesn't know enough to lead. He's an airline captain and therefore HAS been entrusted with life or death decisions, but Lapidus is a good leader and knows when to let someone with more information make the calls. I personally feel that Jack's call to get off the boat was the right one, but I think it was more Kate-oriented than anything else. His achilles he, which is why she's an excellent candidate to switch over to the dark side.


So you're just going to forget and ignore that Naomi was already ON the island having parachuted out of the helicopter, probably piloted by Lapidus? Which means that Naomi and her mercs had already FOUND the island LOOOOOONG before Jack ever made the call and brought the mercs to the island?

Again, you're right here...situationally. This, like the Dharma/Others setup, is a situation that you have to look at from a military perspective. The freighter crew is coming into a known hostile enviroment with very little knowledge. Widmore knew the basic outlines, there's some time jumping losties, but he doesn't know how many additional people are there, nor does he know where their loyalties lie. They are also operating with a squad sized special forces group against a much larger force. If Naomi gets sent in and never contacts the boat, it's too dangerous to start landing their people, especially since the only safe way to get to the island seems to be by air (we've seen what happens to everyone that tried to go by boat prior to Daniel verifying the 325 bearing), so they would have to send another scout in. This probably would have ended up to a point where they eventually did find a place to land the troops and things would have shaken out a bit differently.

But Jack's answering the phone had more consequences than just the freighties showing up to Beach Central. It also brought the Locke/Jack situation to a head and split the groups. We know the freighties ultimately weren't there with the best intentions. The right call would have been to fall back to the barracks immediately and gather more information on the situation. So even though the freighties would still have been to the island, they would have been dealing with a much larger force, they would have had no hostages, and they would have had to deal with them in one of the more defensible positions on the island.


Attacked? Um, no. So, you're saying that Sawyer got his feelings hurt over a book comment and decided to lace into Jack about killing people. This coming from a man who actually DID murder three people?
You do understand that conversation is more than the words spoken right? Subtleties and reading between the lines is something we learn from a relatively young age. Jack wasn't just being snarky about a book. He was making a comment that Sawyer wasn't doing anything and implying that he was rip roarin ready to go to get the ball rolling and FIX THINGS!!!1 As for the blood on Sawyer's hands, I agree with you about the first and third. His need for vengence got the better of him with the shrimp fry guy and he jumped far too soon before he'd verified if this was the guy he was after. But considering he wasn't a killer before this, it's easily attributable to nerves. Not excusable, but I can see why he shot the guy, from his perspective. The real Sawyer? Sorry...putting myself in James Ford's place, I'd have to say that if someone ruined my life like that, I'd have to end them. And before you get all up in arms about his conman life, yeah, he was a scumbag, but it was all part of his quest to kill the man who ruined his life, and Sawyer always made sure it was all adults involved. And we've seen how a couple of times, he's been a softy on the situation. Tom? Yeah....he didn't have to kill him. I have a hunch Tom ended his taste for killing him. Not excusable, but Island justice can be a vincent.


But Sawyer can demand answers from Daniel and Charlotte, right? And he can use violence to get his answers, right? That's okay. Jack can ask any questions he wants.
You were pretty solid up until here. Two different situations. Sawyer/Dan: They're jumping through time, things are whacky as hell, and Dan is making calls like he knows what's going on, when they are all in the same situation. There's no outside element they need to deal with. There is the time jumping, and their group. Daniel knows something about the time jumping, and when Sawyer tries to nail him down (awesome way he disarmed him first by demanding his shirt :biggrin:), Daniel starts responding with an answer that he is basing on the process at hand, giving Sawyer the standard science-y jive. Sawyer, being Sawyer, is not going to stay put for that so he gives him a slap. LOL..Violence. You're kidding right?

Which is exactly why he is asking questions. I'm not seeing the problem here.
Jack/Sawyer: I've covered most of the problematic issues in the last post I responded to you, so you know how troublesome that situation is. The fact of the matter is Jack is pretending to be someone that is a nobody and is new to the Dharma initiative. I mean come on, these people KNOCK EVERYONE OUT BEFORE THEY GET TO THE ISLAND. They're extremely secretive, and they have a truce with a hostile element that details HOW TO DEAL WITH SPIES. What part of this does not scream paranoid environment to you? So if you're on the side of these paranoid people, how can it NOT strike you as very strange, troublesome, and worthy of investigation, that a workman fresh of the boat rolls over to the head security guy's house, a guy who's name he couldn't remember just a couple hours before, and gives his old lady a hug on the front porch? Asking questions in front of the wrong people is to automatically make them question the situation. And if they question Jack and Kate, and Jack and Kate have already linked themselves to him, one by rolling into his house for five minutes and the other by giving him hound dog looks from across the porch, then that implicates all of the lefties that have only been there for three years and popped out of nowhere. Fear of an other's long con??? Any deviation from the plan could land all of them in jail with Sayid. Sawyer knows this, Jack does not. And because Jack is a man of action and likes his superJack mode, it's better to keep him in the dark for now.


Yeah, well I'm still waiting for a thank you from Sawyer for Jack saving his butt in Alcatraz and Sawyer never getting off of his to go rescue him, so whatever.
Why would he thank him? Sure he had to put up with a couple of smacks here and there, and a bit of mindplay from old Ben, but he got to tap Kate nightly. He was probably fine where he was, and he didn't seem to mind the fish biscuits all that much.


Sawyer was the Head of Security for three years, Havok. He was not the leader of Dharmaville. He arrived in an ALREADY established society and got a job.
.Not just any society. Again, one at war, in a hostile environment. Oh....and how did he get that job again? Because the head honcho of the others came in posturing, and he went out and had a chat with him. They've proven themselves loyal so far, but all of a sudden, if they have more people popping out of the jungle ala sayid, or people "coming in on the sub" that recognize those people that popped out of the jungle three years ago, you have a serious problem. They're not picking flowers. They're living on a foreign island where a picnic can get you killed and start a war against people who laugh at your defenses. And I can't illustrate this enough: THEY HAVE A POLICY IN THE TRUCE ON DEALING WITH SPIES.

You left out the biggest gap in their story. How does someone of Hurley's girth get in and out of the sub? How is he even considered Dharma material? There's a lot of things that can blow their cover.

I have to side with Sawyer on this. He is trying to hold this thing together. On the one hand, he has been waiting for them to return but on the other hand, he's not sure what help they are under the current situation. It's a delicate situation. I don't think Jack was overreacting. He has to ask sometime. What are they going to do? What does he need to know? How can he help? But Sawyer isn't sure. How could he imagine how they would return? As much as he's been through, it hasn't really prepared him for predicting the next crisis. The stress is showing. When Hurley brought up the business of the purge, it was just more bad news he didn't need to hear. It reminded me of the scene in Le Fleur when the two security guys knock on his door. Every other thing that happens from here on is just another "son of a ..."

Heh..you said biggest gap and Hurley in the same sentence. But you're preaching to the choir on the rest. I'm supporting Sawyer's actions at this point. He has more information and more street cred than Jack does in this situation, and Jack's meddling can bring nothing but problems at this point. They still have a long way til the purge, so it's not like they're up against the wall timewise. And as for Hurley, someone else said he ends up as a cook, so I don't think he's the weakest link. Jack referring to LaFleur as James to an already suspicious Phil and Amy waking up to seeing Juliet sneaking the sub manifest is the weakest two links at this point. Sayid is smart, he'll hold his tongue.

Uh, not really. You feel that Jack deserves to be kept in the dark. Jack wanting to be in control of his situations is as normal and human as breathing. Sawyer is no different.


This isn't about 'deserves' or who 'gets to lead'. This is about Jack and crew coming into a highly volatile situation that they know nothing about, and not being to chance whether or not they will realize the gravity of the situation and chill out for a second, or they will act like Jack and crew. Look at Sayid...HE gets it, surprisingly enough. Funny how those military types can assess situations. Jack hasn't had the benefit of having Jin point a gun in his face or Sawyer telling him if he doesn't identify himself as a hostile, they have the right to shoot him. If their entry into the DI is questioned at ALL, it will all unravel. The fact that Jack went to Sawyers house while Phil watches is all the thread you need to start pulling at the sweater, forget the fact that Phil has also at the same time observed a hostile incursion.


No offense, but that's a terrible argument. Jack won't act without information so it makes sense for Sawyer to keep Jack in the dark to keep him from taking action? Am I getting that right? That's just not going to happen - ever.

Exactly. And that's why things are going to blow up. Sawyer actually believes Jack is smart enough to chill out for a couple of days until all the strangeness blows over. He may be...you may be wrong. Sawyer may have accomplished his goal in this situation and it may unravel another way. The whole Sayid/Ben thing could be another way it does. I never said that this was going to work or go smoothly. I just said that Sawyer made the right call for attempting to stifle Jack going into action or nosing about. I'm not saying Jack should stay in the dark, but Sawyer is just trying to buy himself enough time to solve the Sayid situation.



Pigheaded refers to Jack. Hotheaded refers to Sawyer. Jack won't let something go once he's got it into his head. Sawyer reacts to anything, which is why it was so ridiculous that he called Jack a man who reacts, but yet, that term doesn't apply to Sawyer. BOTH men react and BOTH men are thinkers. Sawyer was pretty full of himself.
See, I don't go into the whole drama for drama's sake thing. I'm not into melrose place island edition, so I tend to read this show a bit differently. There are characters in the show who understand and are in the know, and make calls based on that, and there are characters who don't. Jack will make a call when he gets just enough information in any situtation. He's not the kind of guy that needs the whole picture. Sawyer will react when he has to, but his PREFERENCE is to think it out. You can't be a conman without a pretty specific skill set...confidence being one of them. So yeah, I guess you're right. If you distill it down to melrosespeak, he's a bit full of himself generally. Though he's been a lot more naked this season.



You forget that Sayid agree with Jack. I don't get this line of thinking at all that somehow being told that the freighter was not there to rescue them means they could not get off the island. If the freighter people refuse to rescue them or take them home, why is TAKING the freighter not an option? THAT'S what Jack and Sayid planned to do. They were going to play nice, but if they weren't going to be taken home, they were going to take the freighter. I like that plan.

Wait...do you hang out with the writers? I didn't hear Jack ever even imply that he'd take the freighter. Sayid, if he agreed with anyone, agreed with Desmond. Desmond was going to the freighter to get answers about Penny, Sayid was going to get answers on the situation. I'm curious to see how well they'd be able to take the freighter with a bunch of people from different backgrounds, and stand up against trained, ex-combat, likely ex-special forces mercenaries. Good thing those guys didn't do something sneaky. Like put a bomb on the boat.


Partially true, but it's also because Locke, Sawyer, and Hurley sat around and waited for death. I mean, seriously. If you KNOW mercs are on the island to kill you because Ben told you so, would you sit around playing Risk and horseshoes and watchign Xanadu? They were TOLD Ben was the target and yet they took no precautions. That stupidity and the deaths of those who died are on them.
Sooooo....where they gonna go? Not sure how much of the show you've been following but they're on an ISLAND, and the barracks (kind of a military-y term huh?) is the most defensible position with possible exception to the temple, which the Losties had no clue about. The thing they were guilty of is not keeping up some sort of guard. Again, if Jack and crew went with them, they would have had a fighting chance, and Keamy's peeps wouldn't have had any hostages.



No. See above.
No. You see above. :p


Possible, but I don't think so. Jack knew that Ben was a brilliant manipulator because Jack witnessed it first hand. He wanted Ben with him because he wanted to handle Ben. After everyone made their own choices to follow their respective teams - which Jack did not get angry about, btw - Ben asked to go with John, and John didn't have a problem with having Ben with him, even though Ben shot him and left him to die in a pit. You get what you ask for, know what I mean?
Again, your mistaking me for someone who has a vested interest in these characters and is trying to assign blame. The fact is, they were after Ben, and would have gone to wherever he was. He went with Locke, that brought heat on Locke, if he stayed with Jack, that would have brought the heat on them.


Maybe, but the groups had very different methods of acting against the threat of the freighter. Locke, Sawyer, Ben, and Hurley chose to sit around and wait. Jack, Sayid, Kate, Juliet, and the rest of the crew group chose to take action, and as a result, they were able to get onto Lapidus' chopper and head straight for the freighter. They were already off island to initiate their escape plan. They were also learning about the time differentials, via Daniel's rocket. Things were getting done with Jack's camp at the beach and on the freighter. I'd rather be proactive.
I'm totally confused which point your arguing here. Keamy and crew shoot first on the mission. Period. If you don't believe that, ask Danielle and Karl. Wait..I think I got it..so because you would prefer to be proactive, Keamy and company wouldn't shoot first? And I get that you think they were wrong for 'sitting around', if you want to go swimming out to a freighter, more power to ya. Me, I realize my limitations, and I realize that on an island, one of those limitations are the ability to move very far.


I think after Sawyer slammed Jack with 'you killed everyone' or whatever he said, that Jack affirming that he DID get people off the island is not unreasonable. Was Jack wrong about his statement? Just as you stated that it's not as clear cut as that, neither is Sawyer's statement that Jack got people killed. Many contributed to their own deaths, like Jin, Desmond and Michael never warning people about the bomb, for one.
You're right. He succeeded in getting 1/8th of the people that were on the plane off the island. One of them was him, one was a chick he had the hots for, but the others were totally selfless. Doh..one of them he did make the call to let blow up though. But the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the one.

[/quote]

You don't think a spinal surgeon who graduated faster than anyone in his class would not have these exact same qualities?
Not to the same degree. Working in the body is all physical. Working with/against people is much more fluid. Cells, muscles, etc all behave generally the same way. Doctors don't need to be charismatic or have any concept of psychology.


I don't know how you can make the statement that Jack is not flexible when he has deferred to Sayid's judgement in every single case that I can recall. Yes, Jack can overreact at times, but so does Sawyer. You seem to be saying that Sawyer is the epitomy of calm and levelheadedness and that's. just. wrong.
Sayid can kick Jack's ***. Jack respects that. :D My comment on Jack has nothing to do with Sawyer. Sawyer isn't generally the epitome of calm, but he can exude that. Season 5 Sawyer, prior to his arrival in Dharmaville, has pretty much been the epitome of acting on raw emotion. One could even say hotheadedness. And maybe Jack does defer to Sayid, but when has he ever deferred to Sawyer, or Locke. Sayid is probably the only one he defers to.


I don't know how you can misinterpret the stunned look on Sawyer's face after Jack's response. I mean he was STUNNED. I wish I had a picture to post.
Looked more like concerned to me.



You mentioned Sawyer keeping things under control, and I pointed out that it was pretty easy to do in 1974 Dharma, that's all. Life in that community is not even remotely the same as the life and death struggle of the 815ers.
I don't think you understand the whole situation, but you will once it starts to unfurl. If there is no conflict, they'll stay in Dharma days forever, or at least til 92.

How can you possibly make that statement when it was Locke who TOLD Jack to become the leader?

Again, let's be clear as to why they butted heads. Locke had a very different opinion about how the island should be revered. He knocked Sayid unconscious. He drugged and tied up Boone because he felt he needed it. He lied about the Hatch and lead everyone to believe that the boar had headed north, even though they needed the food. He lied to Jack about Boone's injuries to protect the secret of the hatch (which Sayid eventually got out of him) and on and on. Jack and Locke's issues were about a lot more than just philosophy.

I don't think you understand the definition of philosophy. Some people don't look at it just as an academic pursuit. Some people model their lives around their philosophies.



You say that, but you seem to clearly have a preference. That's fine, btw.

Lol, I have "favorites", but neither one of them are factoring in here right now. I'm a Ben/Locke fan. :biggrin: I like most of the characters though, pretty much all of them except for Kate. I just think that at points in time, they're at different levels of maturity, and at this point in time, I think the lefties have an edge on Jack and Kate, and maybe even Sayid. Sayid's a real X-factor right now. He's normally the level headed go to guy, but the poor fella doesn't even know he's in 1977. All he knows is that two of his friends tossed him in a cell and told him he's an other.



Actually, Jack did EXACTLY that. I'm missing how that's not clear to you. Jack took every direction and order that Sawyer asked of him the minute they saw each other. Jack didn't even give Sawyer any flack for his janitor position. I'm convinced it was Sawyer because how could they have any aptitude tests for Jack if he never took any? Someone had to set that up. Jack was amused and not the least bit upset. My point is that Jack DID sit back and let Sawyer work things out - until Sayid. Then he had questions. Why can't he ask them? I don't get it.

Oh it's clear to me he did do exactly that. My concerns are twofold. Did he do it soon enough to avoid suspicion for a while, and how long until he's not content to do that anymore? As for the questions...sure..ask away, but the first night, and the trail of suspicious behavior he's left..totally wrong time to do it. Infiltration needed to go smooth because as I've stated, there's a Phil and Amy trail that won't stand up to scrutiny. I'm pretty sure rolling up to Jim's house invited that scrutiny already.



Sawyer really started the pissing contest by comparing his leadership to Jack's. Let's be fair about that fact.


If we have to, okay. In the interests of fairness, questioning Sawyer's leadership would logically bring about someone with Sawyer's tude to compare.



Which is unfortunate. I did really like the new Sawyer in LaFleur, and Iwas hoping that Jack and him would work together and become friends. Clearly, Darlton likes these two guys fighting. It's a shame really.

I don't think it'll ultimately end up that way. They'll have to put aside whatever differences they have...unless one of them turns. :eek2:



Hell yeah. Sawyer has the knowledge of the next 30 years of history. He knows about Bill Gates, Google, IBM, and all the other technologies about to be discovered. Sawyer could be a gazillionaire living it up at Studio 54 and the Playboy mansion. Now com'on, do you see Sawyer passing that life up for sitting on a small island in a Dharma cottage? No frakin way! :biggrin:

Good point....I guess the 80s wouldn't suck so bad if you were loaded. :D Especially if you had the opportunity to con Bill Gates while he's conning IBM. :D

And LOL, galactica fan. :p

Almost over :(
100%
Here is my take on the exchange.

Jack is visibly thrown when Juliet opens the door. He is so happy to see his old friend. Jack needs a friend right now, and Juliet has always been supportive of him. And maybe he still has unresolved feelings for her but then comes....

door in the face when he sees Sawyer sitting on her couch and he realizes that Juliet lives with him. The smile he gave says it all. If we could read his thoughts I bet they went something like this...

Jack: ." I can't believe this, of course it's Sawyer, it's always fracking SAWYER!!!!!!!!":biggrin: Why does every woman I fall for have a thing for this guy?
I risk everything coming back to this God forsaken island, join the dharma initiative as a toilet cleaner and oh yeah I'm stuck in the 70's!!!! And here I find him drinking Dharma beer and reading!!!!"

I think Jack had every intention of playing nice when he first got there. But he's only human. Sawyer just has a way of getting to Jack. But the exchange doesn't stop there. Let's just say I believe the flower sniffing Sawyer is not all that he seems haha!!!

So when Jack tries to question Sawyer's plans, Sawyer imediately takes the defense. His thinking probably went something like this,

Sawyer:" Who the HELL does this guy think he is coming here after THREE YEARS and questioning my leadership ability??? These are MY people, not his and I'm going to show him who the new Sheriff is in town!!!

And out pops the very vindictive side of Sawyer who always knows exactly what to say to really hurt a person. Jack already feels bad and overly responsible for any death on the island. Sawyer knows this and uses it to lash out at Jack. Flower sniffing Sawyer has left the building!!!

What Sawyer was not expecting was for Jack to back down and say, yeah it is a relief to not be the one in charge. Now you can be the one who had to make the tough choices and take the blame when you make the wrong choices.

And then of course it ends with the porch scene, so we could all understand once and for all what is really eating at these two. Ah yes Kate! Good ol Kate the object of their eternal grudge fest. So many levels, so fun to watch.:)

I think that's a great read on both of them :D
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Jin- season 1 he was the biggest jerk and now he's the most compassionate guy there is.

Charlie- He was a crazed maniac in season 2 but by the end of season 3 we were all in love with him again.

Jack- The heroic leader for 3 seasons and then he became a drug addicted, pill popping jerk.

Sawyer- For 3 years he was the outside jerk and now for season 4 and till now people have come to like him.

Sun- Look at how cold and evil she has become since season 1.

Interesting how at least 3 out of the 5 people you mentioned, Sun, Jin, and Jack, have turned into their fathers.

Lapidus is the kind of guy who is smart enough to know when he doesn't know enough to lead. He's an airline captain and therefore HAS been entrusted with life or death decisions, but Lapidus is a good leader and knows when to let someone with more information make the calls. I personally feel that Jack's call to get off the boat was the right one, but I think it was more Kate-oriented than anything else. His achilles he, which is why she's an excellent candidate to switch over to the dark side.

I agree with you, but ultimately, it's Lapidus' call, and he told Jack something to the effect of "Doc, I'm out of here in five minutes." Jack jumped off, grabbed Kate, and headed back to the chopper. Lapidus took off immediately and wasnt' going to wait for a group decision. My point is that Jack couldn't have saved Jin. He could have tried, but he, Kate, and Jin would have died. Jack was not to blame. Frankly, Jin was to blame for not evacuating the freighter when he first found the bomb. They will never live that down.

Again, you're right here...situationally. This, like the Dharma/Others setup, is a situation that you have to look at from a military perspective. If Naomi gets sent in and never contacts the boat, it's too dangerous to start landing their people, especially since the only safe way to get to the island seems to be by air (we've seen what happens to everyone that tried to go by boat prior to Daniel verifying the 325 bearing), so they would have to send another scout in. This probably would have ended up to a point where they eventually did find a place to land the troops and things would have shaken out a bit differently.

I can agree with this to a point. Knowing what we now know about Keamy, he wasn't going to waste time if he hadn't heard from Naomi. He would have sent in another scout asap. He has no problem with killing and sacrificing. The point I was making in my post was that Jack did not bring the mercs to the island with his call, as they were already there. Jack's final call simply reinforced that Naomi was alive (sort of), but Keamy was going to send his men to the island regardless of whether he ever heard from Naomi or Jack. Did Jack speed up the process? Probably. But Jack made the call because everyone wanted and thought they were going to be rescued, despite Locke's warning. No one believed him.

But Jack's answering the phone had more consequences than just the freighties showing up to Beach Central. It also brought the Locke/Jack situation to a head and split the groups. We know the freighties ultimately weren't there with the best intentions. The right call would have been to fall back to the barracks immediately and gather more information on the situation. So even though the freighties would still have been to the island, they would have been dealing with a much larger force, they would have had no hostages, and they would have had to deal with them in one of the more defensible positions on the island.

Yeah but the problem with that is that they did not believe that there was a problem. Locke gave Jack a very cryptic response: "You're not suppose to do this." This means nothing to Jack or anyone else standing around him. After the contact was made, everyone headed to the beach and were looking forward to leaving. It was only when they found out about Charlie that the group really splintered. At that point, some felt it was best to hide and not go with the freighters, and some felt it was better to either work with them or take the freighter, if necessary. Making the call to immediately fall back to the barracks wasn't really an option because there was no indication of danger.

You do understand that conversation is more than the words spoken right?

I do, and I'm not stating that Jack's comment wasn't biting. It certainly was, and it was not really necessary. Jack does not get a free pass, contrary to what you might think.

You also have to put yourself in Jack's place. When they were stuck on the island, Sawyer was always sitting around reading books, and not really helping out. This is what sticks in Jack's mind. Now, should Jack have cut Sawyer some slack that things have probably changed in three years? Sure. Jack was being an *** too with his book comment, but it was really just a ribbing.

Sawyer was just vicious in his comments, above and beyond what Jack said to him. It was almost as if Sawyer's been resentful of Jack and holding onto it for years. Jack didn't create Sawyer's problems. Sawyer made choices in his life, and he made decisions. Those are on him. I thought Sawyer's comments to Jack were out of line.

You were pretty solid up until here. Two different situations. Sawyer/Dan: They're jumping through time, things are whacky as hell, and Dan is making calls like he knows what's going on, when they are all in the same situation. There's no outside element they need to deal with.

Valid point made. However, Sawyer still wanted answers because things were spinning out of control. Time-tripping and nose bleeds is probably going to motivate Sawyer to get answers quickly. Truthfully, I don't have a problem with it. The point you and I are discussing is that Jack also has questions. He's stuck 30 years in the past. Now, it's not exactly skipping through time, but it's disconcerting. He also has a friend in a jail cell. He wants answers. Sawyer really should have made an effort to gather his old friends together and answer some questions, since he knows what it's like to be in their shoes. That's all.

Sawyer, being Sawyer, is not going to stay put for that so he gives him a slap. LOL..Violence. You're kidding right?

I was thinking more of his threat to Charlotte. Eh.

They're extremely secretive, and they have a truce with a hostile element that details HOW TO DEAL WITH SPIES. What part of this does not scream paranoid environment to you? So if you're on the side of these paranoid people, how can it NOT strike you as very strange, troublesome, and worthy of investigation, that a workman fresh of the boat rolls over to the head security guy's house, a guy who's name he couldn't remember just a couple hours before, and gives his old lady a hug on the front porch? Asking questions in front of the wrong people is to automatically make them question the situation.

but Jack and company know nothing of these paranoias. They have not been living there for three years. Sawyer should have known that Jack, being Jack, would have a million questions and be ready to give him and Kate and Hurley those answers to PREVENT them from doing things that would make people suspicious. You don't sit them in a cottage, without answers, and then expect them to stay put. (Well, Hurley would :biggrin:)

And because Jack is a man of action and likes his superJack mode, it's better to keep him in the dark for now.

Gotta disagree with you on this one. Leaving Jack (and Kate or Sayid) in the dark is going to make them look for answers on their own, which will create much bigger problems.

Why would he thank him? Sure he had to put up with a couple of smacks here and there, and a bit of mindplay from old Ben, but he got to tap Kate nightly. He was probably fine where he was, and he didn't seem to mind the fish biscuits all that much.

:biggrin:

Not just any society. Again, one at war, in a hostile environment. Oh....and how did he get that job again? Because the head honcho of the others came in posturing, and he went out and had a chat with him. They've proven themselves loyal so far, but all of a sudden, if they have more people popping out of the jungle ala sayid, or people "coming in on the sub" that recognize those people that popped out of the jungle three years ago, you have a serious problem. They're not picking flowers. They're living on a foreign island where a picnic can get you killed and start a war against people who laugh at your defenses. And I can't illustrate this enough: THEY HAVE A POLICY IN THE TRUCE ON DEALING WITH SPIES.

They also have a submarine to get them the heck off of craphole island if the truce deteriorates, no? The Dharma people are on Richard's turf, and he's letting them stay.

Look at Sayid...HE gets it, surprisingly enough. Funny how those military types can assess situations. Jack hasn't had the benefit of having Jin point a gun in his face or Sawyer telling him if he doesn't identify himself as a hostile, they have the right to shoot him.

Exactly. A gun to his head would have helped Jack realize the situation a lot faster, just as Sayid did.

If their entry into the DI is questioned at ALL, it will all unravel. The fact that Jack went to Sawyers house while Phil watches is all the thread you need to start pulling at the sweater, forget the fact that Phil has also at the same time observed a hostile incursion.We are just going around in circles here. You think keeping Jack and company in the dark is a smart idea because somehow it will keep them out of trouble by telling them nothing. Watch how that blows up in his face.

Sawyer actually believes Jack is smart enough to chill out for a couple of days until all the strangeness blows over. Then Sawyer's an idiot who hasn't learned anything about the 815ers or Jack. It's not just Jack, people naturally have questions. If anything, you tell them SOMETHING on the first day to hold them for the next few. You don't tell them nothing. It's a failed strategy.

See, I don't go into the whole drama for drama's sake thing. I'm not into melrose place island edition, so I tend to read this show a bit differently. There are characters in the show who understand and are in the know, and make calls based on that, and there are characters who don't. Jack will make a call when he gets just enough information in any situtation. He's not the kind of guy that needs the whole picture. Sawyer will react when he has to, but his PREFERENCE is to think it out. You can't be a conman without a pretty specific skill set...confidence being one of them. So yeah, I guess you're right. If you distill it down to melrosespeak, he's a bit full of himself generally. Though he's been a lot more naked this season. I didn't realize the words pigheaded and hotheaded would get you so upset. I don't watch Melorse Place or Grey's or any of those other soapy dramas, sorry to disappoint nor did I expect to confuse you so much. It's okay for "characters" to be pigheaded and/or hotheaded. It makes them fun and interesting and exasperating. This isn't brain surgery.

Wait...do you hang out with the writers? I didn't hear Jack ever even imply that he'd take the freighter. Yeah, he did. Well, it was either him or Sayid, so I have to go find the scene where it was mentioned. I think it was Sayid.

Sayid, if he agreed with anyone, agreed with Desmond. Desmond was going to the freighter to get answers about Penny, Sayid was going to get answers on the situation. I'm curious to see how well they'd be able to take the freighter with a bunch of people from different backgrounds, and stand up against trained, ex-combat, likely ex-special forces mercenaries. LOL! Sayid and company don't know what's on the freighter, which is why they are going there. Once there, they realize it's not a whole lot of people. Once the mercs leave, Sayid makes a pretty easy go of taking the freighter. So yeah, taking the freighter was not only doable, it was being done. Sayid was ferrying people from the beach to the freighter without the mercs even knowing.

Good thing those guys didn't do something sneaky. Like put a bomb on the boat.Yeah, the bomb that the survivors found. You mean that one? The one that they warned no one about. You mean that one? The one that killed the survivors because of their lack of communication? Everyone would still be alive if they had opened their mouths.

Sooooo....where they gonna go? Not sure how much of the show you've been following but they're on an ISLAND, and the barracks (kind of a military-y term huh?)
is the most defensible position with possible exception to the temple, which the Losties had no clue about. And yet they didn't defend it, did they? They sat around playing games until the mercs came-a-calling. See, your theory is sound, but not the rest. Yes, the barracks (ooohhh military term) IS a good place to set up a defensible position, but you actually need to be out and about defending it. Who is the sentry (see, I know that one too)? Who's the lookout? What's the plan when the mercs come calling? What WAS their plan, exactly?

Again, your mistaking me for someone who has a vested interest in these characters and is trying to assign blame. We're debating an issue, and there's nothing wrong with it. They don't have to be real for you to be invested in discussing them, for heavens sake.

The fact is, they were after Ben, and would have gone to wherever he was. He went with Locke, that brought heat on Locke, if he stayed with Jack, that would have brought the heat on them. Yeah, and you would have thought that Ben would of had some type of plan in place too. Dumb.

because you would prefer to be proactive, Keamy and company wouldn't shoot first? And I get that you think they were wrong for 'sitting around', if you want to go swimming out to a freighter, more power to ya. Me, I realize my limitations, and I realize that on an island, one of those limitations are the ability to move very far. That's fine. Some would rather die sitting around waiting for the bullet and others would rather die fighting. Variety is the spice of life.

You're right. He succeeded in getting 1/8th of the people that were on the plane off the island. One of them was him, one was a chick he had the hots for, but the others were totally selfless. Doh..one of them he did make the call to let blow up though. But the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the one.Well, you've made it obvious that there's no point in discussing this with you as you clearly won't acknowledge the fact that Jack risked his life for 100+ days to try and help the survivors, and he was trying to get them all saved and rescued. The fact that he failed at it in the end is the crux of Jack's guilt and destruction off island, Rubbing that in Jack's face is why it was such a low blow.


Not to the same degree. Working in the body is all physical. Working with/against people is much more fluid. Cells, muscles, etc all behave generally the same way. Doctors don't need to be charismatic or have any concept of psychology.Oh, brother. :rolleyes: Before you back pedal any further, your list of attributes (High level of intelligence, creative thinking, problem solving coupled with calculation, long term planning, risk assessment, and situational assements, acting fast when you need to, and taking the time to think things through when you don't) can ALL pertain to a surgeon.

Sayid can kick Jack's ***. Jack respects that. :D Jack respects Sayid, period.

My comment on Jack has nothing to do with Sawyer. Sawyer isn't generally the epitome of calm, but he can exude that. Season 5 Sawyer, prior to his arrival in Dharmaville, has pretty much been the epitome of acting on raw emotion. One could even say hotheadedness. And maybe Jack does defer to Sayid, but when has he ever deferred to Sawyer, or Locke. Sayid is probably the only one he defers to.Jack deferred to Locke during the whole Ethan debacle and maybe a few other times, if I care to research further.

Looked more like concerned to me. That's fine.

I don't think you understand the whole situation, but you will once it starts to unfurl. If there is no conflict, they'll stay in Dharma days forever, or at least til 92.Really? You need conflict for good drama? Wow, who knew?

I don't think you understand the definition of philosophy. Some people don't look at it just as an academic pursuit. Some people model their lives around their philosophies.

Yes, you've already established that I'm a melrosesque, militarily-termed challenged, non-philosophying individual. I'll go look up the word philosophy and try and wrap my head around it.

Now, to draw you back to the point of your own comment, my reply to your post had to do with this statement: "In a tough situation a leader will emerge. Everyone except Locke let Jack do it," And that's the statement I answered. I didn't realize you were actually trying to delve into the philosophies of leadership. If you want to discuss the philosophies of John Locke, we will be here for a while, and frankly, I don't want to.


I like most of the characters though, pretty much all of them except for Kate. I just think that at points in time, they're at different levels of maturity, and at this point in time, I think the lefties have an edge on Jack and Kate, and maybe even Sayid. Sayid's a real X-factor right now. He's normally the level headed go to guy, but the poor fella doesn't even know he's in 1977. All he knows is that two of his friends tossed him in a cell and told him he's an other.I agree completely. Jack, Sayid, and company are out of their element right now, and Sawyer does know more about what's going on, which is why I feel keeping them in the dark is stupid. Sawyer doesn't need to tell them everything, but he should lay the ground work at least. Most of the mistakes that have been made by every single character on Lost has been made because of lack of communication and secrecy, and none of them learn from that mistake.

Oh it's clear to me he did do exactly that. My concerns are twofold. Did he do it soon enough to avoid suspicion for a while, and how long until he's not content to do that anymore? As for the questions...sure..ask away, but the first night, and the trail of suspicious behavior he's left..totally wrong time to do it. Infiltration needed to go smooth because as I've stated, there's a Phil and Amy trail that won't stand up to scrutiny. I'm pretty sure rolling up to Jim's house invited that scrutiny already. Yeah, but for Sawyer or Juliet to assume that Jack (or Kate who's living just behind him apparently) are not going to seek them out for answers is ludicrous. Also, did Juliet or Sawyer look even remotely upset that Jack came calling? It wasn't like they said "What are you doing here?" "You're going to blow everything." They were as calm as can be, so how is Jack suppose to take that reaction and deduce: Don't ask questions. He wouldn't. Nobody would.

If we have to, okay. In the interests of fairness, questioning Sawyer's leadership would logically bring about someone with Sawyer's tude to compare. That's fair. But Sawyer really overreacted. It was like he felt threatened, and he wasn't. He actually has the control, and he should know that fact. Jack seemed bemused by it all by the time he left, and he still managed to stun Sawyer into silence. Sawyer was probably expecting a fight, since Jack use to be more of an in your face guy. They've both changed.

I don't think it'll ultimately end up that way. They'll have to put aside whatever differences they have...unless one of them turns. :eek2: I'm hoping they work together, but truthfully, Sawyer and Juliet have spent far more time with the Dharma people than with the 815 survivors. So, who WOULD they be more loyal to in the end? Hmmmm.

And LOL, galactica fan. :p

Almost over :( I know. :frown:


NOTE: I'm sorry. I just realized that we took this thread so off base. I thought I was in another thread, and I didn't mean to turn this into a Jack/Sawyer discussion. This is a Sawyer thread, and we ended up discussing Jack, Sawyer, and Locke.

I apologize. Back on subject: I'm just hoping that the Sawyer in LaFleur sticks around and that he works with his fellow survivors to face whatever trouble is coming their way, namely Ben, Richard, Widmore, and maybe Jacob.

Yes, I do remember that scene. Because if they run out of gas, they can't refuel on the island. They CAN refuel on the freighter and go BACK for those on the island.
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1. Ok, you just made my point. jack made the decision, not lapidus.

2. The chopper never went to the island and dropped Naomi off. Namoi went by herself in a one person shuttle. The shuttle crashed in the ocean and Naomi parachuted to the island. There was no chopper with Naomi. Jack had to make contact to let them know the exact coordinates of the island. Maybe the frieghter crew would have eventually found the island but maybe not. Jack was the one who called the frieghter to come to the island because he was obsessed with getting everyone of the island. Even though Ben and Locke told him not to because the frieghter crew were evil. Even when the scout team came to the island and told Jack face to face they were not their to save them, he refused to listen to them and still played it off like they were going to help them. Faraday told Jack less than half way through the season he was not their to save them, yet Jack just ignored that and went towards Keamy and crew thinking they were goiing to save them. Jack refused to listen to anyone when he had his mind set, even when it was Faraday telling him.

3. So you were hoping Sawyer would have changed from his nasty comments towards Jack but Jack gets a pass for his comments? Your not lam-blasting Jack for his comments. Simple as this, they both were biting into each other. Niether is a saint.

4. Sawyer murdered people and Jack tried to murder someone. Just because Sawyer has murdered 3 men and killed 5 men total does not give Jack a pass for attempted murder. Had Jack been in civilized society when he tried to kill Locke he would be guilty of attempted murder. I don't see how you can say what Jack did was ok because he didn't have bullets in the gun and didn't actually kill Locke. Jack tried to kill Locke, simple as that. Jack is guilty of attempted murder plain and simple. As much as you want to give him a pass for it, he doesn't get one. Sawyer is guilty the same but again Jack is no saint.

5. Jack did walk up to Locke, tackle him to the ground, point the gun at his head and listened to Locke for a second and then pulled the trigger. He did not try to kill Locke in the heat of a battle or anything. It was when Locke was on the ground un-armed. Again, seeing only what you want to see. Also why did jack try to kill Locke? It wasn't because he killed Naomi. Jack didn't try to kill Locke because Boone died(Jack still blames Locke). Jack tried to kill Locke because he was through with Locke trying to keep him on the island.

6. Jack and Sayid both decided not to tell the others in LTDA. Jack did not just defer to Sayid's judgement. he agreed with Sayid's judgement. Although for arguements sake let's say he let Sayid decide on this. It doesn't matter. jack still let his friends be in the dark about their possible deaths. Jack was their with them and he didn't say anything about what was going to happen. Also by the time Jack tells them the truth its to late. One of the people comment they can't turn back now because the Other's already know they are coming. Or how about the gun case in season 1 when he didn;'t tell people about that. or how about the button from season 2. How long did Jack not tell people about that. Or how about Juliet still working for Ben. How long did he not tell everyone about that. he even told Juliet right in front of Kate not to tell them. Artz(I think it was him) even made a comment about how a few of them have a secret club who keeps secrets from the rest of the group. Simple as this, Jack along with everyone else has kept info from everyone else. They do it because they think they know what is best for everyone else. Samed as Sawyer thinks now. Is it right? nope, but what goes around comes around Jack.

7. Had Kate and Sayid not gone back for Jack what would have happened? jack would be off island getting rescue for everyone else. He made a deal with ben the night before he helped Kate and Sawyer escape. He was going to leave the island. So yes, Jack meant for them to stay away. cause if they had, Jack would be trying to get rescue to the Losties on the island.

8. I stil don't understand your arguement. jack said don't come back for me. Sawyer said the doc said not to come back for him. So Sawyer didn't.

9. Sawyer did not kill Amy's husband so he did not create the problem. unless your saying he should have done nothing as they were about to execute Amy. Would Jack have sat by and watched Amy be executed? Sawyer never started the issue, it was the hostiles. We know the details as Richard explained them. he said his people need justice for his 2 men who were killed. So he was going to bring back Amy';s husbands body to show his people he killed the man who killed his people. Thus setting the truce back on track.

10. They had access to a submarine which could let them leave an island and then be displaced in time. Its not like they can go assume their own idenities in the real world, it is 1977. If they leave the island then they have NO CHANCE to get back to their real time. So unless Sawyer and crew were content to never returning to the present, they were stranded on the island.

11. Locke was right about the island. Locke was right about the button. Locke was right about friegther crew. Locke was right about trying to get jack and company back to the island. Locke was right about stopping the time skips. Locke was right about moving the island. That seems like he's been right on all the big stuff. Locke has more been lead around by Christian and Jacob than Ben and Widmore.

12. So you need an actual scene where Jack tell his reasons for going back to the island but you just assume Locke went to meet Jack more than once. How's that work out?:rolleyes: Either you only believe what you see or your read into things. Pick one and stick with it.

13. Jack only went back because of Locke simple as that. had Locke not talked to Jack he never would have went back.


Dude, your going insane with your obsession with Jack. You twist everything to make Jack come out good in the end. Where as I can see all the charecters for their faults and short comings. Desmond is my favorite charecter. Yet I am not on these boards supporting everything the man does. I can acknowledge when he was not the good guy. Like when he refused to go back to the island and instead chose to stay on the frieghter. Although with you, Jack can do no wrong. Jack's a great charecters and other than Desmond, is probobly my second favorite. Although even though I like him, I can see his mistakes and flaws. For some reason you can't. Every charecter outside of maybe Jin has been self involved and all about their own obsession at one time or another. No charecter is a saint on this show. They are human beings and human beings are flawed.

12. So you need an actual scene where Jack tell his reasons for going back to the island but you just assume Locke went to meet Jack more than once. How's that work out?:rolleyes: Either you only believe what you see or your read into things. Pick one and stick with it.

13. Jack only went back because of Locke simple as that. had Locke not talked to Jack he never would have went back.




Jack has been having doubts about leaving the island for a while before Locke's visit (We get a hint of that after he visits Hurley in SNBH). Locke's visit is what pushed Jack over the edge.

To be accurate, it was Locke's mention of his dad, and claim that he was still alive which pushed Jack over the edge. Matt Fox himself has said that his main motivations for getting back to the island were to pursue his destiny and find his father, and that if he'd stayed away from the island any longer he would have probably died. No mention of wanting to save his former comrades.

So I think I speak for most when I say...Sawyer became such an amazing person in the last few years of the show.

But after that conversation with Jack...hmmm...questions marks abound.

Now that he settled down is he going to be old Sawyer again? seems like it. but for what reasons?

The Others might not have spies but I sense the presence of talk radio operatives on this thread. The island is out of our control. Jack and Sawyer are out of our control. That said, I would like to offer my view.

Only once before these past two episodes has Sawyer been seen as a possible leader. Mostly he's been a troublemaker. But consider what he said last night about Churchill. All of a sudden his troublemaking seems to have some purpose. His looting the plane for supplies, his conning of Locke for the guns. To me these things show that he resented being left out of the decision making process. He's like a kid who acts out when he thinks something is wrong rather than voice his opinion. Because who he is negates everything he says. He's a liar by trade. Who would listen to him? But he's been talking the whole time. In The Long Con, he points out the weaknesses of the two other leaders on the island - Jack and Locke. He shows that Jack's reactionary tendencies and Locke's naivete have been putting the Losties at risk. And now, three years later, he is trying to put his strengths to work. He's embarrassed by Jack as much as he is glad to see him. He can help Jack, but Jack's got to be able to listen and there doesn't seem to be much time. I like Jack but he needs to acknowledge when he's in over his head. He needs to accept other ideas. He seems to have turned the corner on Locke. Now he needs to see Sawyer as more than a macho con man.

To be accurate, it was Locke's mention of his dad, and claim that he was still alive which pushed Jack over the edge. Matt Fox himself has said that his main motivations for getting back to the island were to pursue his destiny and find his father, and that if he'd stayed away from the island any longer he would have probably died. No mention of wanting to save his former comrades.

Zoriah, that was a statement Matthew Fox made during an interview, in addition to many other interviews where he mentioned other motivations for his character. It's hardly accurate proof like, for instance, the actual scene in Lost where Jack tells Ben that Locke convinced him to go back because the other's lives were in danger. That's canon.
100%
1. Ok, you just made my point. jack made the decision, not lapidus.

Yeah, it was a smart decision.

The chopper never went to the island and dropped Naomi off. Namoi went by herself in a one person shuttle. Please name the scene where Naomi tells people that she came in a one person shuttle. What IS a one person shuttle, btw?

There was no chopper with Naomi. The characters specifically mentioned hearing a helicopter

Maybe the frieghter crew would have eventually found the island but maybe not.Thank you. They HAD already found the island; Naomi was the proof

So you were hoping Sawyer would have changed from his nasty comments towards Jack but Jack gets a pass for his comments? Your not lam-blasting Jack for his comments. Simple as this, they both were biting into each other. Niether is a saint. If you've read the posts on this thread, you'll know that I commented that Jack's behavior was bad too.

Sawyer murdered people and Jack tried to murder someone. Just because Sawyer has murdered 3 men and killed 5 men total does not give Jack a pass for attempted murder. I didn't say it did. You said it made their conduct equal, and it doesn't.

Jack did walk up to Locke, tackle him to the ground, point the gun at his head and listened to Locke for a second and then pulled the trigger. He did not try to kill Locke in the heat of a battle or anything. It was when Locke was on the ground un-armed. What you described above is accurate so I'm not sure what you're defending here.

Jack and Sayid both decided not to tell the others in LTDA. Jack did not just defer to Sayid's judgement. he agreed with Sayid's judgement. It was Sayid's plan, and Jack agreed to follow Sayid's judgement. That's a man deferring to another man's judgement.

Although for arguements sake let's say he let Sayid decide on this. It doesn't matter. jack still let his friends be in the dark about their possible deaths. Jack was their with them and he didn't say anything about what was going to happen. Also by the time Jack tells them the truth its to late. It's not too late. Their in the jungle, they are not in the open field where they got captured. Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley could have turned around and went back to the beach. They chose to stay and continue on.

Had Kate and Sayid not gone back for Jack what would have happened? jack would be off island getting rescue for everyone else. He made a deal with ben the night before he helped Kate and Sawyer escape. He was going to leave the island. So yes, Jack meant for them to stay away. cause if they had, Jack would be trying to get rescue to the Losties on the island. Havoc, Jack admitted to Kate exactly why he didn't want her to return, and it was to protect her. Also, Jack told Kate not to come back while he was operating on Ben, which was LOOOONG before the sub decision was ever made. Jack didn't know while he was operating on Ben that he might be able to escape on a sub. Your argument doesn't hold water.

8. I stil don't understand your arguement. jack said don't come back for me. Sawyer said the doc said not to come back for him. So Sawyer didn't. I guess it's the character of a person that we are debating here. Sawyer chose to stay away. He preferred to hang on the beach and drink beers with his buddies after having his life saved by a supposed friend (Sawyer's words). Kate and Sayid, OTOH, choose to go back for their friend. It's interesting to me that Sayid would go back for Jack and it wasn't his life that was saved. Yet he risked his life to save Jack, just as Jack would later go back for Sayid in season four. THAT'S what friends do for each other.

Sawyer did not kill Amy's husband so he did not create the problem. unless your saying he should have done nothing as they were about to execute Amy. Yes, that's what I'm saying. I think Sawyer did the right thing, btw. However, his actions caused the truce to be severed, so it was appropriate that Sawyer be the one to fix it, and he did.

They had access to a submarine which could let them leave an island and then be displaced in time. Its not like they can go assume their own idenities in the real world, it is 1977. If they leave the island then they have NO CHANCE to get back to their real time. So unless Sawyer and crew were content to never returning to the present, they were stranded on the island. Yes, I know that, but it still means that if life ever got so horrible or dangerous on the island, they had a way out. It's the difference between being stranded and staying of their own free will.

Locke was right about the island.Locke never gave anyone information about the island. He gave them cryptic messages. Don't forget that NO ONE believed Locke.

Locke was right about the button. Locke, himself, stopped pushing the button, if you recall. He also stopped Mr. Eko from trying to push the button and it's the reason the Hatch blew up.

Locke was right about friegther crew. Locke's message to Jack was "You're not suppoes to do this." Hardly an explanation.

Locke was right about trying to get jack and company back to the island. Locke was right about stopping the time skips. Locke was right about moving the island. These are decisions Locke made about his future actions.

Locke has more been lead around by Christian and Jacob than Ben and Widmore. That's true. I forgot to add Christian to the number of people he was listening to.

So you need an actual scene where Jack tell his reasons for going back to the island but you just assume Locke went to meet Jack more than once. How's that work out?:rolleyes: Either you only believe what you see or your read into things. Pick one and stick with it. It's called canon. I will trust something that actually occured on screen more than something that has not occurred on screen. To your argument, Jack admitted why he was going back to the island to Ben. He said it. That can't be dismissed and yet you dismissed it. Canon can't be dismissed. Opinions, like mine that maybe Locke and Jack spoke again later, is just an opinion. Get it.

Jack only went back because of Locke simple as that. had Locke not talked to Jack he never would have went back. You're skipping over the important part. Jack went back because Locke told him that the others would die if he didn't.

Dude, your going insane with your obsession with Jack. You twist everything to make Jack come out good in the end. It's dudette, actually. And we are WAY off subject, so I'll answer this for the last time. I didn't twist anything about Jack. These are facts that you just don't like. I can't help that fact. It's always amusing to me how defending Jack, with actual proof, btw, is viewed as being obsessed or twisting things around. I'm not making the facts up. However, never have I ever believed that Jack is a flawless person or that he hasn't made poor decisions. Jack is not perfect, and he can be a jerk, and he has acted impetuously at times that almost got him killed. Jack is as flawed and damaged as every other character on Lost, but for some reason, everything that happens on the island is Jack's fault, and that's not true and that's what I defend. Did he contribute to some of the problems on the island? Sure. But so did all the other characters. Some characters are more guilty than others in some things, but that doesn't mean that I believe that they are not unredeemable or good people.

So, to get this thread back on topic, here is the topic again:

Sawyer became such an amazing person in the last few years of the show.

But after that conversation with Jack...hmmm...questions marks abound.

Now that he settled down is he going to be old Sawyer again? seems like it. but for what reasons? I think that Sawyer has changed, and for the better, but I am wondering if he being in Dharmaville has also changed him in a negative way. Having power, in any form, can be intoxicating. I really can't make a decision about Sawyer after only one episode. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and state that I think Sawyer has made some very positive changes with his life. He loves Juliet, and he seems genuinely happy with his life and with those around him. Unfortunately, I think happy life in dharmaville is about to end.

Maxum, Well said - Thank You ................AGAIN! :)

I also think Sawyer's comfy life in Dharmaville and the fact that the power trip he's on seems to be intoxicating, will ultimately be his downfall. I would like nothing more than for these two to come together for the good of everyone involved, but there is going to be some serious head-butting going on before, and if, that ever happens.

No matter what does happen, it looks like it's going to be an E-ticket ride for sure!

So I think I speak for most when I say...Sawyer became such an amazing person in the last few years of the show.

But after that conversation with Jack...hmmm...questions marks abound.

Now that he settled down is he going to be old Sawyer again? seems like it. but for what reasons?

i think what is so mind boggling is that now they r on the island by choice. everything before was about getting rescued&surviving. now that they r there they don't know what to do with themselves.i think jack is naturally feeling a little anxious. but i really hate the way sawyer, juliet, jin...they all seem so distant from jack, kate...i don't like it.i really can't stand juliet &sawyer together. i thought for sure when kate wasn't on the manifest that juliet&her jealous self was getting her kicked off. i really think that is going to be cause for some major drama&maybe an "incident"..i love watching this unfold!

Just to get back to the Sawyer topic.. kind of...

Remember when there was a debate that there was someone who looked like Sawyer in the background of the camera crew of one of Chang's video at the DI?..Now, after all these recent episodes it doesn't seem so far fetched ....ya know.

Zoriah. He loves Juliet, and he seems genuinely happy with his life and with those around him. Unfortunately, I think happy life in dharmaville is about to end.
i don't know....do u see the way he has been looking at kate. he looks like his heart is going to fall out of his chest. i think that juliet was ms. right now...but to him, kate will always be ms. right.

Maxum, Well said - Thank You ................AGAIN! :)

Hi Doc! :biggrin:

I also think Sawyer's comfy life in Dharmaville and the fact that the power trip he's on seems to be intoxicating, will ultimately be his downfall. I would like nothing more than for these two to come together for the good of everyone involved, but there is going to be some serious head-butting going on before, and if, that ever happens.


I hope the head butting is kept to a minimum, if at all. We've already been there, done that. I want to see both these guys work together towards one purpose. There is a sticking point, of course, between them - and it isn't women. I think Sawyer has genuinely grown to love his life in Dharma, and it's given him a sense of peace. Like he told Juliet, he doesn't want anyone messing it up. Jack, Sayid, Kate, and Hurley are newly arrived from 2009, and they are not going to want to just sit around in Dharmaville 1977. They are going to want to find out why they were told to "really" go back. Hence the upcoming conflict. That's just a guess.

i think what is so mind boggling is that now they r on the island by choice. everything before was about getting rescued&surviving. now that they r there they don't know what to do with themselves.i think jack is naturally feeling a little anxious. but i really hate the way sawyer, juliet, jin...they all seem so distant from jack, kate...i don't like it.

Yeah, I'm kind of sorry that the writers are so determined to see a fractured relationship between the 815 characters. It started with the '06 once they returned home, and it's happening again, to some point, on the island in 1977. I was hoping to see these characters really cement a long and lasting friendship, but I'm not sure that's going to happen anymore. I really don't want to see an "every man for themselves" mentality.

i don't know....do u see the way he has been looking at kate. he looks like his heart is going to fall out of his chest. i think that juliet was ms. right now...but to him, kate will always be ms. right.

You could be right. Sawyer and Kate may ultimately end up together, but I do think that Sawyer loves Juliet. He's had three whole years with her as opposed to just three months with Kate. I guess we'll have to see how everything unfurls.