If Ben met Sayid as a boy, he would recognize Sayid when he sees him as an adult. I think it's safe to say that young Ben will meet all of the Losties (and Juliet).

It's interesting to think that Ben recognized these people all along. I can't wait to see the interactions between young Ben and the Losties.

You have to hand it to the writers of this show.

Is this "little" things that make your head spin. :eek2:

If he knew then back then, THEN he chose them to be on the plane? Or was he like Widmore with Locke: Expecting them!

You are thinking to linear. Time has been changed. NOW young ben has met the losties. The new future is set where sun/ben/frank are. The purge never happened from the looks of the otherville.

Yep, we kind of saw this building for a few episodes, but it's good to finally see it really start. Is this why Ben tortured Sawyer so much in the cages? Is this why he wanted Kate and Sawyer to hook up, so he could pay Sawyer back for being with Juliet? But why would he also encourage a Jack and Juliet pairing? Did Ben have a childhood crush on Juliet and obsess over her and make sure she was recruited to come to the island?

It's all just so messed up and creepy!

Not to mention the scenes with Sayid tortuing Ben in the Swan and Ben pretending to be Henry Gale. I mean, wow.
100%
The new future is set where sun/ben/frank are. The purge never happened from the looks of the otherville.

? Please explain what you mean.

You are thinking to linear. Time has been changed. NOW young ben has met the losties. The new future is set where sun/ben/frank are. The purge never happened from the looks of the otherville.
I don't think so. Whatever happened, happened. The losties were always there in 1977, as evidenced by the photo Christian shows Sun in the future. The purge will still happen in 1992, but it's still a long way off.

But adult Ben wouldn't know/recognize the Losties in 2004 because they hadn't been back to 1977 yet. Right?

I'm pretty sure Ben has previously met the TT losties, and now they're showing us how. There have been so many little clues that he has that it would be a major letdown if he hadn't.

? Please explain what you mean.

It's a joy to watch the house of cards begin to crumble.

But adult Ben wouldn't know/recognize the Losties in 2004 because they hadn't been back to 1977 yet. Right?

They were always there in 1977. So most likely he would recognize them.

But adult Ben wouldn't know/recognize the Losties in 2004 because they hadn't been back to 1977 yet. Right?

No. they were *always* there in 1977. There's one 1977, not multiple 1977s.

But, 2007-ish Otherville looked muuuuch different.... like it was on a different timeline. The building Christian took them into had a "processing" sign dangling on it.... like it was a remnant from the DI. But.... In the timeline we know, all remnants of the DI were cleared from the Barracks when the Others took up residence... suggesting it *is* some sort of alternate timeline. If that's the case, then the writers have reneged on their previously stated parameters of time travel. (That past events cannot be changed.... The stories that have been told are what happened, definitevely, b/c the audience is invested in that story having actually happened, and the narrative momentum consequent to it.)

[quote=LostLaura;2126950]Yep, we kind of saw this building for a few episodes, but it's good to finally see it really start. Is this why Ben tortured Sawyer so much in the cages? Is this why he wanted Kate and Sawyer to hook up, so he could pay Sawyer back for being with Juliet? But why would he also encourage a Jack and Juliet pairing? Did Ben have a childhood crush on Juliet and obsess over her and make sure she was recruited to come to the island?

It's all just so messed up and creepy!

Not to mention the scenes with Sayid tortuing Ben in the Swan and Ben pretending to be Henry Gale. I mean, wow.
100%

Ben did mention to Jack that Juliet looked like Sarah.. if Sawyer and Juliet have a baby and call it Sarah I'm going to lose my mind all together lol I think Ben is paying Sawyer back by torturing him in the cages yes, I think it does have to do with Juliet but I also think it has to do with the possibility of Sawyer catching young Ben with the hostiles. It makes sense Sawyer is head of security and young Ben is already up to no good. I don't think Ben was encouraging a Juliet / Jack relationship- I think it was more to rub in Jacks face how she resembles Sarah because we know how hurt Jack was over Sarah leaving him. Ben pushes buttons and I think he was trying to push Jacks.
100%
[quote=LostLaura;2126950]Yep, we kind of saw this building for a few episodes, but it's good to finally see it really start. Is this why Ben tortured Sawyer so much in the cages? Is this why he wanted Kate and Sawyer to hook up, so he could pay Sawyer back for being with Juliet? But why would he also encourage a Jack and Juliet pairing? Did Ben have a childhood crush on Juliet and obsess over her and make sure she was recruited to come to the island?

It's all just so messed up and creepy!

Not to mention the scenes with Sayid tortuing Ben in the Swan and Ben pretending to be Henry Gale. I mean, wow.
100%

Ben did mention to Jack that Juliet looked like Sarah.. if Sawyer and Juliet have a baby and call it Sarah I'm going to lose my mind all together lol I think Ben is paying Sawyer back by torturing him in the cages yes, I think it does have to do with Juliet but I also think it has to do with the possibility of Sawyer catching young Ben with the hostiles. It makes sense Sawyer is head of security and young Ben is already up to no good. I don't think Ben was encouraging a Juliet / Jack relationship- I think it was more to rub in Jacks face how she resembles Sarah because we know how hurt Jack was over Sarah leaving him. Ben pushes buttons and I think he was trying to push Jacks. On that note I can't wait for Jack to meet Roger!

You have to hand it to the writers of this show.

Is this "little" things that make your head spin. :eek2:

If he knew then back then, THEN he chose them to be on the plane? Or was he like Widmore with Locke: Expecting them!

I am still trying to wrap my mind around all of it...I think that before it is over Darlton will have to open their own "mental institute" for people like me that will go totally "INSANE" from trying to figure this show out...I am gonna need the therapy...

Yep, we kind of saw this building for a few episodes, but it's good to finally see it really start. Is this why Ben tortured Sawyer so much in the cages? Is this why he wanted Kate and Sawyer to hook up, so he could pay Sawyer back for being with Juliet? But why would he also encourage a Jack and Juliet pairing? Did Ben have a childhood crush on Juliet and obsess over her and make sure she was recruited to come to the island?

It's all just so messed up and creepy!

Not to mention the scenes with Sayid tortuing Ben in the Swan and Ben pretending to be Henry Gale. I mean, wow.
100%


? Please explain what you mean.

I love this line of thought !!!

But, 2007-ish Otherville looked muuuuch different.... like it was on a different timeline. The building Christian took them into had a "processing" sign dangling on it.... like it was a remnant from the DI. But.... In the timeline we know, all remnants of the DI were cleared from the Barracks when the Others took up residence... suggesting it *is* some sort of alternate timeline. If that's the case, then the writers have reneged on their previously stated parameters of time travel. (That past events cannot be changed.... The stories that have been told are what happened, definitevely, b/c the audience is invested in that story having actually happened, and the narrative momentum consequent to it.)

Exactly. It's like the Others never sucessfully took over in 1992.

So how bout this....One of our TTing Losties screwed up the past and this was the result. Now the onward challenge is to somehow correct it all????

Do Sun and Frank now have to figure a way back to 77' or do they have to figure a way to get the 77' Losties back before they screw it all up again. And if no one can change anything what the *&%$ difference does it all make?????.........Unless our faithful (and "special") Desmond shows up for some hocus-pocus......

Do Sun and Frank now have to figure a way back to 77' or do they have to figure a way to get the 77' Losties back before they screw it all up again. And if no one can change anything what the *&%$ difference does it all make?????.........Unless our faithful (and "special") Desmond shows up for some hocus-pocus......

I love that thought about Desmond showing up and changing things in some way. We know he's the one that can change events so maybe we'll see how he does it. But I do agree that Othersville was not the same as we saw in past seasons, unless that is a building we've just never seen inside of.

To go along with the "alternate universe" theory and the fact that the DI bldgs looked different in this ep, didn't Locke blow up the dock when he blew up the sub? The dock looked fine when Sun and Frank were walking on it.

No. they were *always* there in 1977. There's one 1977, not multiple 1977s.

But, 2007-ish Otherville looked muuuuch different.... like it was on a different timeline. The building Christian took them into had a "processing" sign dangling on it.... like it was a remnant from the DI. But.... In the timeline we know, all remnants of the DI were cleared from the Barracks when the Others took up residence... suggesting it *is* some sort of alternate timeline. If that's the case, then the writers have reneged on their previously stated parameters of time travel. (That past events cannot be changed.... The stories that have been told are what happened, definitevely, b/c the audience is invested in that story having actually happened, and the narrative momentum consequent to it.)

Exactly. It's like the Others never sucessfully took over in 1992.

So how bout this....One of our TTing Losties screwed up the past and this was the result. Now the onward challenge is to somehow correct it all????

Do Sun and Frank now have to figure a way back to 77' or do they have to figure a way to get the 77' Losties back before they screw it all up again. And if no one can change anything what the *&%$ difference does it all make?????.........Unless our faithful (and "special") Desmond shows up for some hocus-pocus......

Interesting... It does seem to indicate that an alternate timeline may exist in 2007. Perhaps because 1977 is currently in flux? (I mean in the sense that some people have TT'ed to the past and could potentially change *some* things between 1977 and 2007.)

I'm actually a big fan of "Whatever happened, happened", but now I'm not so sure the writers have completely "written out" free will altogether. ;) (And I think it all ties into the forthcoming Incident that was mentioned back in Season 2.)

Let's face it, there's a reason why both Sawyer's clan and Jack's clan were sent back to the 70s. It MUST be to either: A) do something/ensure something happens, B) change something, or C) prevent something from happening. Once completed, do we know for sure that it (the scene in 2007 involving Christian, Sun and Frank) will happen? From my understanding, "What happened, happened" refers to what we the audience have already seen happen, and what the characters in the story have experienced in their own individual pasts. But if Desmond is "special" and "an exception to the rule" (as Daniel put it), wouldn't it stand to reason that Desmond is meant to change something (and/or be an instrument of change)? And if so, wouldn't it undoubtedly have some kind of impact on the future?

There was definitely something spooky about that scene. Something didn't quite feel right... Is it just me or was that "Smokey" waiting outside---to take Sun and Frank on their "long journey"? Now can we say for sure that this scene is not an exception to the rule? A case of the universe course-correcting by removing them from an alternate timeline that will eventually not exist? Mrs. Hawking did say that the results were unpredictable...

I guess the real question is: could the writers be breaking their own rule, but only with the 2007 timeline... and on purpose, as an unexpected twist?

"Smokey"... an awaiting blackhole?

P.S. Any chance Sun & Frank might be seeing Claire again before the rest of them?

P.P.S. Tired of all the questions? ;)

I love that thought about Desmond showing up and changing things in some way. We know he's the one that can change events so maybe we'll see how he does it. But I do agree that Othersville was not the same as we saw in past seasons, unless that is a building we've just never seen inside of.
It is weird cuz its like Othersville was not the same AND the DI recruit pics wete still there in the processing center.

I can't get a handle on it....

I thought what we're seeing happening is what always happened.

Farady is missing, does he somehow find a way to alter the past?

It does explain how Ben knew so much about the Losties when he first met them back in season 2/3.

The whole Otherville scene contrasted with the Dharma 77 scenes gave me a very Christmas Carol vibe. C.S cast as the ghost of Island past/present/future.

I think we need to establish what came first...the chicken or the egg?

If we are talking alternative timelines, is Christian ALIVE in the alternate time line?!???

I think it just looks different because Keamy's team and smokie blew it up. We havent really had many scenes with New Otherton since it got attacked by the freighties.

I agree; Othersville was abandoned by Locke, Sawyer etc when Keamy attacked, and it's been that way since.

I was wondering: since we know young Ben was dying to get away from DI and become part of the Others instead (MBTC, his run in with Richard), can we assume he'll probably try to strike up a friendship with Sayid, possibly even help him escape?

You are thinking to linear. Time has been changed. NOW young ben has met the losties. The new future is set where sun/ben/frank are. The purge never happened from the looks of the otherville.

Has it changed? Or did this always happen this way?

Faraday apparently takes the view of most physicists in regards to this-- time is eternal and can not change. Its like a frozen block and what has happened always was going to happen, what will happen is going to happen and is always going to happen. So if you were to go back in time, you were always going to go back in time.

In this view, the losties were always going to end up back in time, and it happened before, just as in the future, a plane will crash with them on it, and they will go back in time. We're probably going to find out that there are some things that happen that will have directly effected them during the first few seasons, that they themselves directly or indirectly caused in the past.

Whatever happened, happened.

Now the real question is, in the lostie world-- is Faraday right and time is a frozen loaf. Or perhaps is time more fluid than that and he's wrong. Perhaps whatever happened doesn't have to happen the same way? Perhaps Faraday is wrong.

If Ben knew the Losties all along, then the Losties should of know Ben too.

If Ben knew the Losties all along, then the Losties should of know Ben too.

Not accourding the rules set forth in LOST. This could change but as its been explained thus far; Ben would know our losties because he met them when he was a child in 77.

The Losties however first met Ben in 04. So lets take Sayid who is the only character we have seen young Ben interact with. Ben met Sayid when he young, then 30 years later Sayid crashes on the island. Ben would know Sayid because they met in his past. However Season 1 Sayid would not know Ben because he has not met him yet, its in his future that he meets 77 Ben.

Ben.
Comes to island as kid
meets Sayid in cell in 77
grows up and takes over for others
Plane crashes in 2004 meets Sayid again at some point after that.

Sayid grows up off island
crashes on island in 2004
Meets grown Ben on island for first time
leaves island
returns 3 years later, but time travels back to 77
meets young Ben.

I think it just looks different because Keamy's team and smokie blew it up. We havent really had many scenes with New Otherton since it got attacked by the freighties.

Sun and Frank don't come to the full New Otherton Barracks, though, do they? It was just the dockside processing center. I think the only times we've seen that building post DI is when Juliet arrives, and when Lock blows the sub, right?

The dock certainly looked like it was post-sub blow up, and the processing center just looked abandoned, like the Others had never used it.

I'd wanna compare some screenshots of pre-flashes/post DI processing center with what we saw last night, and more of post-flashes New Otherton, before I'd say they look different.

Sun and Frank don't come to the full New Otherton Barracks, though, do they? It was just the dockside processing center. I think the only times we've seen that building post DI is when Juliet arrives, and when Lock blows the sub, right?

The dock certainly looked like it was post-sub blow up, and the processing center just looked abandoned, like the Others had never used it.

I'd wanna compare some screenshots of pre-flashes/post DI processing center with what we saw last night, and more of post-flashes New Otherton, before I'd say they look different.


couldnt agree more, the scene wasnt in otherton, no need to jump to alternate timeline theories

The fact that the landing strip still existed on the smaller island, means that the others DID exist in that timeline. I agree that this building that Christian was in was just the processing center by the dock that was not near otherville. REMEMBER, the new recruits in 77 had to be DRIVEN to otherton, which means that there is some distance between the 2 locations.

Ben did know the Losties all along - we'd been speculating, but here's the meeting! Ben met them as a kid, and remembers them as an adult (he's old enough to recall this, most definitely). We may see why he's so hostile to them in 2004, then... I'm really curious about the interactions!

That said - there is no alternate timeline in this particular theory of time travel. It's one way of viewing time, also used in 12 Monkeys - everything we've seen so far already happened. It's always in the past. It cannot be changed - however they decide to act, it has already occurred, and they can make no changes. Only one person, to our knowledge, can change any outcome, and that's Desmond. Granted, they may bring him back into this to make some changes, and I expect they will - but for right now, that's not how it works.

To understand what's going on, you need to understand it from different perspectives.... Sawyer, for example, was born, was a con man, got on a plane, crashed on the island in 2004, traveled to 1977, lived in 1977, ___. Ben was born, moved to the island, lived there most of his life, met the Losties who were living in 1977 while he was there, became leader of The Others and orchestrated the purge, committed some hijincks with some people who crashed on the island who also happen to include a group of people he knew as a kid in 1977. For Ben, 1977 is the past. For Sawyer, it is now the present. Sawyer would have no reason to know Ben in 2004, as that interaction occurred before he met him in 1977 (presumably, though we haven't yet seen this).

Re: Intake Building - I need more proof to think it's any different than the Others left it. Screencaps comparing, for example. After all, it is NOT part of New Otherton. It may be that Desmond actually changes things in 1977 or some other pre-purge year (again, the only one who CAN, apparently), but as we haven't seen this happen, we are still going with the theory of time that the writers have selected to work within. In a way, this sucks - it means that some of the Losties may die in the purge, or be killed in 1977 only to appear as Adam and Eve, or that they may never return to the present... and that they can't control any of these outcomes. But it'd be nice if they were able to make things better by changing the past.

Yep, we kind of saw this building for a few episodes, but it's good to finally see it really start. Is this why Ben tortured Sawyer so much in the cages? Is this why he wanted Kate and Sawyer to hook up, so he could pay Sawyer back for being with Juliet? But why would he also encourage a Jack and Juliet pairing? Did Ben have a childhood crush on Juliet and obsess over her and make sure she was recruited to come to the island?
.

Along these thoughts.........and I know I have seen this someone in another post too but....... is this why they tell Michael to bring back Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley in the end of Season 2? Because Ben knew them before? Maybe even this is why Ben got all bugged out about Jin being alive after the freighter exploded - he never put two and two together?

But Ben also knew Sayid, Jin and Sun, and did not ask for them. On the other hand, its obvious that all of them plus Juliet, Daniel and Miles will soon come to meet young Ben. What will they do: will they try to, maybe, avert the purge? Will their actions set in motion the very events they are trying to avoid? Will they create badguyBen?

Maybe in the efforts to do "the greater good" our losties decide to kill a young Ben (which in turn is why he ultimately sides with the hostiles).

That said, fairly odd that there was nothing to indicate the presence of our losties in Ben's previous flashbacks.

I (for one) would have liked to have had a reference to "lafluer" (understandably not showing him) back in season 3 when giving Ben's backstory.

They wouldn't have had to show Sawyer (and take away the suprise) but planting a "see we knew this all along" would have been great (if only from referencing his name).

But Ben also knew Sayid, Jin and Sun, and did not ask for them. On the other hand, its obvious that all of them plus Juliet, Daniel and Miles will soon come to meet young Ben. What will they do: will they try to, maybe, avert the purge? Will their actions set in motion the very events they are trying to avoid? Will they create badguyBen?


This is what I really would like to know too. Ben is meeting these people for the first time in HIS life (Aside: How long has Ben been on the island at this point anyway? I don't think he could have just come on that sub, because the guy monitoring Sayid in prison seemed to know him. So he had to have been around awhile.) But the losties all not only know Ben as an adult, but they have a pretty violent history with him. So how do they react to meeting him as a child? If Juliet, Sawyer, etc already met him, how did they treat him?

It also explains how easily Ben was able to manipulate particular Losties... almost as though he already knew them.

It also explains how easily Ben was able to manipulate particular Losties... almost as though he already knew them.

And how he was able to gather so much information on them...despite his financial resources off-island, he had 30 years to follow, research, and arrange for them to get on flight #815.

If Ben met Sayid as a boy, he would recognize Sayid when he sees him as an adult. I think it's safe to say that young Ben will meet all of the Losties (and Juliet).

It's interesting to think that Ben recognized these people all along. I can't wait to see the interactions between young Ben and the Losties.


Ask yourself this :

If Ben knew Sayid and the others all along, why did he ask for lists when 815 crashed ? He might have seen them as a child but he can't have known how they got to the island otherwise he would have had the information to hand when he'd grown up as he'd have expected it. They obviously don't let young Ben know who they are

Following on from that :

There's no way that when Rousseau showed Ben to Sayid when she first captured him that this storyline was part of the show. Not a flicker from Ben / Henry when he sees Sayid from his trap in the tree.

Interesting new episodes but this hasn't been the plan all along. Not this exact idea, anyway.

The fact that the landing strip still existed on the smaller island, means that the others DID exist in that timeline. Or that someone else had built it.

Has it changed? Or did this always happen this way?

Perhaps Faraday is wrong.
I'd rather "mistaken" due to some unknown factor that allows the Island to exist outside of the laws of relativity. "Wrong" is like pasting a "Just Kidding" sign up over the rules.

Daniel was surprised by the the unusual scattering of light on the Island, the results of his rocket experiment, the presence of an H-bomb etc.. Maybe there were a few things he had yet to learn about the place.

we can see now why he had to build the runway...he knew HE was going to need it in the future.Without that for Frank to land the plane on, he would be dead!!

You guys are dead on with this one...it also links to the theory I had going between Kate-Ben. Please check out the link in my sig for more on that...would love everyones input since it's around the same subject. With the time travel everything on the list now makes sense...

I believe that young Ben...learns everything he knows...from Kate! (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=109495):D!

You guys are dead on with this one...it also links to the theory I had going between Kate-Ben. Please check out the link in my sig for more on that...would love everyones input since it's around the same subject. With the time travel everything on the list now makes sense...

I believe that young Ben...learns everything he knows...from Kate! (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=109495):D!


If true, then why does older Ben need lists when 815 crashes ? If he knew about the crash, he'd have the information prepared.

I don't think he needs the list..I think his people do....and I also believe that he is the one to know that in order for time to replay itself (and for them to get back there) it needs to play out exactly the same...

Ask yourself this :

If Ben knew Sayid and the others all along, why did he ask for lists when 815 crashed ? He might have seen them as a child but he can't have known how they got to the island otherwise he would have had the information to hand when he'd grown up as he'd have expected it. They obviously don't let young Ben know who they are

Following on from that :

There's no way that when Rousseau showed Ben to Sayid when she first captured him that this storyline was part of the show. Not a flicker from Ben / Henry when he sees Sayid from his trap in the tree.

Interesting new episodes but this hasn't been the plan all along. Not this exact idea, anyway.

I'm not so sure about that. Ben is a masterful deceiver, He was playing "Henry Gale" to the hilt. (I believed him!) The Ben-Sayid relationship was fraught from the very beginning.

I don't think he needs the list..I think his people do....and I also believe that he is the one to know that in order for time to replay itself (and for them to get back there) it needs to play out exactly the same...

" I need lists in 3 days "

And he wouldn't run from Rousseau and get shot because seeing Sayid, he should realise getting caught was meant to be.

" I need lists in 3 days "

And he wouldn't run from Rousseau and get shot because seeing Sayid, he should realise getting caught was meant to be.


But he may also have an idea that being at Sayid's mercy is NOT a good thing for Ben.

Remember, 2004 Ben doesn't know the details of what happens to him in 2004 (unless he overheard some very detailed reminiscences back in the late 70s).

I don't think he needs the list..I think his people do....and I also believe that he is the one to know that in order for time to replay itself (and for them to get back there) it needs to play out exactly the same...

Yes! If Ben hadn't asked Goodwin/Ethan for the lists, things would have not happened the way they had to happen. Ben does not seem surprised in the least that the plane crashes. Or maybe he is a little surprised that it rips apart the way it does so he needs the list to make sure everything that was supposed to happen, happened. He isn't going to leave anything to chance. Plus,he had to play it like it was all new to him for the benefit of Juliet and the Others.
That was the first time Ben experienced the crash of 815 .... it is the first time 815 crashed on Lostia. He just knew it was going to happen and who would survive.
100%
" I need lists in 3 days "

And he wouldn't run from Rousseau and get shot because seeing Sayid, he should realise getting caught was meant to be.

It had to happen that way and Ben knows it...he also knows he won't actually die and will escape eventually. Pain has never bothered our Ben!

Yes! If Ben hadn't asked Goodwin/Ethan for the lists, things would have not happened the way they had to happen. Ben does not seem surprised in the least that the plane crashes. Or maybe he is a little surprised that it rips apart the way it does so he needs the list to make sure everything that was supposed to happen, happened. He isn't going to leave anything to chance. Plus,he had to play it like it was all new to him for the benefit of Juliet and the Others.
That was the first time Ben experienced the crash of 815 .... it is the first time 815 crashed on Lostia. He just knew it was going to happen and who would survive.
100%


It had to happen that way and Ben knows it...he also knows he won't actually die and will escape eventually. Pain has never bothered our Ben!

He doesn't know he has to run !!!

" Hey, that's that Sayid guy i met 27 years ago. What did he tell me ? Oh yeah - RUN, BEN, RUN !!!! "

When the writers wrote that scene, they did not have this current plotline in mind.

I'm not so sure about that. Ben is a masterful deceiver, He was playing "Henry Gale" to the hilt. (I believed him!) The Ben-Sayid relationship was fraught from the very beginning.

Exactly. Rousseau herself said it perfectly. " He will lie for a very long time."

Yes! If Ben hadn't asked Goodwin/Ethan for the lists, things would have not happened the way they had to happen. Ben does not seem surprised in the least that the plane crashes. Or maybe he is a little surprised that it rips apart the way it does so he needs the list to make sure everything that was supposed to happen, happened. He isn't going to leave anything to chance. Plus,he had to play it like it was all new to him for the benefit of Juliet and the Others.
That was the first time Ben experienced the crash of 815 .... it is the first time 815 crashed on Lostia. He just knew it was going to happen and who would survive.
100%


It had to happen that way and Ben knows it...he also knows he won't actually die and will escape eventually. Pain has never bothered our Ben!


Between him and Locke it's like the Wile E.Coyote contest. Seriously...

If Ben knew what was going to happen, why does he order the death of Jin ? Why the huge effort at the end of season 3 to stop the Losties ?

If Ben knew what was going to happen, why does he order the death of Jin ? Why the huge effort at the end of season 3 to stop the Losties ?

That's a good question. I am in the minority who thinks time can change. Obviously it can if daniel can tell Desmond to find his mom. I liken it to the principle in back to the future 2. When the losties go back in time to 1977 everything they do could change something in the future, creating an alternate time line. Things could look very similar, but they could be changed, we don't know, we have not seen anything but the shack at the end of the episode.

I am curious why they have the greeting for the recruits at the dock now. It was there when ben and his dad arrived, but in 1977 it was at the main camp. What if Christian moved it there, like he moves the cabin. I don't necessarily disagree with people, but i can not accept definitively that time has not changed, especially since we have seen it change. You can not assume Ben has known the losties all along. They were not always there in 1977, they arrived there when the island stopped moving them through time.

That's a good question. I am in the minority who thinks time can change. Obviously it can if daniel can tell Desmond to find his mom. I liken it to the principle in back to the future 2. When the losties go back in time to 1977 everything they do could change something in the future, creating an alternate time line. Things could look very similar, but they could be changed, we don't know, we have not seen anything but the shack at the end of the episode.

I am curious why they have the greeting for the recruits at the dock now. It was there when ben and his dad arrived, but in 1977 it was at the main camp. What if Christian moved it there, like he moves the cabin. I don't necessarily disagree with people, but i can not accept definitively that time has not changed, especially since we have seen it change. You can not assume Ben has known the losties all along. They were not always there in 1977, they arrived there when the island stopped moving them through time.

I don't think you can compare it to Back to the Future time travel. There are many theories of time out there - the writers have clearly picked one of them to explore through the show. They didn't make this stuff up - these are pre-existing theories of how time works and how time travel would work within the fabric of space-time. You can't combine the theories - alternate timelines could only happen here if they were to a) abandon the theory of time they have been carefully constructing for us through the character of Daniel, or b) their one noted wild card, Desmond, makes a change.

This isn't Back to the Future time theory - it's 12 Monkeys, or Terminator 1 time theory. If you are a science buff, it's essentially Novikov's self-consistency principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle).

I don't think you can compare it to Back to the Future time travel. There are many theories of time out there - the writers have clearly picked one of them to explore through the show. They didn't make this stuff up - these are pre-existing theories of how time works and how time travel would work within the fabric of space-time. You can't combine the theories - alternate timelines could only happen here if they were to a) abandon the theory of time they have been carefully constructing for us through the character of Daniel, or b) their one noted wild card, Desmond, makes a change.

This isn't Back to the Future time theory - it's 12 Monkeys, or Terminator 1 time theory. If you are a science buff, it's essentially Novikov's self-consistency principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle).

I don't think they have clearly picked anything. I think everything will be explained once they show Daniel on this show again. He seems to be the conduit through which they try to explain things that are happening. Yeah you say they have this carefully contructed time thing, then they have an admitted error of Charlotte using the wrong date of her birth causing everyone to try and figure out how she could be in dharmaville, when it really is her and was the actress making a mistake in dates. I think they are on alternate time line, it's my belief, it could be wrong but i don't agree with your magic bullet of desmond used to fix everything. that's a cop out.

Also why would Ben never say anything about the people being on the island in the past, or charlotte as a child on the island?

I don't think they have clearly picked anything. I think everything will be explained once they show Daniel on this show again. He seems to be the conduit through which they try to explain things that are happening. Yeah you say they have this carefully contructed time thing, then they have an admitted error of Charlotte using the wrong date of her birth causing everyone to try and figure out how she could be in dharmaville, when it really is her and was the actress making a mistake in dates. I think they are on alternate time line, it's my belief, it could be wrong but i don't agree with your magic bullet of desmond used to fix everything. that's a cop out.

I agree about Daniel being the conduit to explanation about time. Daniel has, all along, been talking about time travel in correlate to the theory in which I mentioned above. He has never mentioned alternate timelines, never mentioned a multiverse (both completely alternate theories of time), and both he and Eloise reference inability to change things and course correction. If you check out that wiki page I linked to, you'll find it remarkably similar to what Daniel has been saying all along.

There has never been a posited alternate theory of time in this show - in fact, the writers have presented information consistent with THIS theory at every reference to how time travel works. An error is not the same thing as them introducing a totally different theory of how time works. I'm not saying it's carefully constructed, but there is a complete absence of any reference to any other theory of time other than our own speculation. The show only references this one theory, over and over again.

I agree that it could be seen as a cop out to use Desmond, but we've already seen him as the "magic bullet" when Daniel used him to attempt to change things. And if they don't use Desmond to change something big, then his ability to exist outside the normal time rules is irrelevant to the show - why introduce the concept and then not use it?

He has never mentioned alternate timelines, never mentioned a multiverse (both completely alternate theories of time), and both he and Eloise reference inability to change things and course correction.

Except he did change things by telling Desmond to do things in the future. Why did Desmond wait until after his child was born to go talk to Daniel's mother? If he knew about it way back when, why wait so long to go talk to her?

Except he did change things by telling Desmond to do things in the future. Why did Desmond wait until after his child was born to go talk to Daniel's mother? If he knew about it way back when, why wait so long to go talk to her?

That doesn't posit an alternate timeline. It posits that Desmond is a magic bullet. I'm agreeing with you - I'm saying Desmond operates outside the rules of time. But he can only be outside the rules if the rules are the time premise that Daniel has told us - by accepting that Desmond is different, we must accept that the time theory they are working with is Novikov's. Apparently Desmond works under Slaughterhouse-Five-style consciousness - not entirely inconsistent with the Novikov theory, as we still are unclear about whether causality exists as a concept in Lost. Novikov's time is also consistent with wormholes in space-time, an idea which has been explored by Dr. Kaku (quantum theorist) in his series on Lost in Popular Mechanics.

This is a hard theory to make consistent in television - easier in finite movies and literature, where it can be confined. Nonetheless, I am pretty sure this is what they're going for as an idea - or at least what they've been trying to present to the viewers.

Bringing it back to Ben... I think we may see him interacting with the Losties in 1977 in a way that indicates he should remember them in 2004 - and when he sees them, he might. We just haven't been told about it yet... but we will, I suspect.

Ben did know the Losties all along - we'd been speculating, but here's the meeting! Ben met them as a kid, and remembers them as an adult (he's old enough to recall this, most definitely). We may see why he's so hostile to them in 2004, then... I'm really curious about the interactions!

That said - there is no alternate timeline in this particular theory of time travel. It's one way of viewing time, also used in 12 Monkeys - everything we've seen so far already happened. It's always in the past. It cannot be changed - however they decide to act, it has already occurred, and they can make no changes. Only one person, to our knowledge, can change any outcome, and that's Desmond. Granted, they may bring him back into this to make some changes, and I expect they will - but for right now, that's not how it works.

To understand what's going on, you need to understand it from different perspectives.... Sawyer, for example, was born, was a con man, got on a plane, crashed on the island in 2004, traveled to 1977, lived in 1977, ___. Ben was born, moved to the island, lived there most of his life, met the Losties who were living in 1977 while he was there, became leader of The Others and orchestrated the purge, committed some hijincks with some people who crashed on the island who also happen to include a group of people he knew as a kid in 1977. For Ben, 1977 is the past. For Sawyer, it is now the present. Sawyer would have no reason to know Ben in 2004, as that interaction occurred before he met him in 1977 (presumably, though we haven't yet seen this).

Re: Intake Building - I need more proof to think it's any different than the Others left it. Screencaps comparing, for example. After all, it is NOT part of New Otherton. It may be that Desmond actually changes things in 1977 or some other pre-purge year (again, the only one who CAN, apparently), but as we haven't seen this happen, we are still going with the theory of time that the writers have selected to work within. In a way, this sucks - it means that some of the Losties may die in the purge, or be killed in 1977 only to appear as Adam and Eve, or that they may never return to the present... and that they can't control any of these outcomes. But it'd be nice if they were able to make things better by changing the past.

I agree with you; the logical problems of time-travel make Back to the Future less logical than Lost, in which we have a consistent Present that is always-already the result of time-travel.

I think that the obvious thing that must be stated is that when you travel back in time, and it is, in fact, in time, then there must be two sets of our Losties: the ones who have traveled back, and the ones who will have traveled back, ie, their younger selves.

If there is not another time anomaly (and that's a big "if") then when our beloved 815 crashes in thirty years there will still be two sets of Losties, the ones who crashed, and the ones who crashed +30 years. This is how one may meet oneself, one's future self, or be influenced by one's future self, and not know it. I think this might explain the mystery, in part, of our Adam and Eve, and I bet, just bet, than some of those Dharma folks dead in that mass grave are either from 815 or the freighter, maybe both.

What has not happened, however, is someone disappearing in the Present because of changes to the Past, or vice-versa. This is why time-travel is so insidious and dangerous to plots --- free will and necessity are the same thing, but from different perspectives. If you are going through it from the "present" perspective, you are free, but it you are looking at your own actions from the "past," then you are bound by necessity, AND vice-versa. Ben, Sun, Frank, et al, are in 2007 because of everything that has happened, we just don't know completely what that is/was.

I am not sure Des changed anything. For instance, how do we know that his visions and statements to Charlie were not part of the very thing that brought about its reality? Whoever mentioned the chicken and the egg thing is right.

I got excited during LaFleur knowing the Losties were going to interact with young Ben, and I'm even more excited to see it play out! My favorite idea is that Juliet will try to change Ben from being evil by being super super nice to him, thereby ensuring his obsession with her. :)

Ok, mucho multi-quoting, sorry.

Along these thoughts.........and I know I have seen this someone in another post too but....... is this why they tell Michael to bring back Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley in the end of Season 2? Because Ben knew them before? Maybe even this is why Ben got all bugged out about Jin being alive after the freighter exploded - he never put two and two together?
Definitely, I definitely think this is the case. He knows them all the best, plus Juliet. And he is freaked that he somehow didn't know Jin was part of Dharma. He likes to have his plans, you know.

But Ben also knew Sayid, Jin and Sun, and did not ask for them. On the other hand, its obvious that all of them plus Juliet, Daniel and Miles will soon come to meet young Ben. What will they do: will they try to, maybe, avert the purge? Will their actions set in motion the very events they are trying to avoid? Will they create badguyBen?
Don't know about Sayid, but he didn't meet Jin (hence the surprise) and Sun isn't even there. As for Daniel, did they even interact in 2007? I'm thinking no. And we know Miles asked Ben for the 3.2 million $, so that could still tie in.

I think they WILL create bad guy Ben.
I (for one) would have liked to have had a reference to "lafluer" (understandably not showing him) back in season 3 when giving Ben's backstory.

They wouldn't have had to show Sawyer (and take away the suprise) but planting a "see we knew this all along" would have been great (if only from referencing his name).
LaFleur was mentioned in the 2008 Comic Con video. Does that make you feel any better? :) I know it wasn't season 3, but it's still cool. I think this was planned way back then, and we will get tidbits soon enough that will help us understand how.

If Ben knew what was going to happen, why does he order the death of Jin ? Why the huge effort at the end of season 3 to stop the Losties ?
He doesn't know that Jin will survive, so he probably thinks he can actually kill him. He only knows that Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley will. Plus, he wants to save the island from the destruction that the freighter will bring.

That doesn't posit an alternate timeline. It posits that Desmond is a magic bullet. I'm agreeing with you - I'm saying Desmond operates outside the rules of time. But he can only be outside the rules if the rules are the time premise that Daniel has told us - by accepting that Desmond is different, we must accept that the time theory they are working with is Novikov's. Apparently Desmond works under Slaughterhouse-Five-style consciousness - not entirely inconsistent with the Novikov theory, as we still are unclear about whether causality exists as a concept in Lost. Novikov's time is also consistent with wormholes in space-time, an idea which has been explored by Dr. Kaku (quantum theorist) in his series on Lost in Popular Mechanics.

This is a hard theory to make consistent in television - easier in finite movies and literature, where it can be confined. Nonetheless, I am pretty sure this is what they're going for as an idea - or at least what they've been trying to present to the viewers.

Bringing it back to Ben... I think we may see him interacting with the Losties in 1977 in a way that indicates he should remember them in 2004 - and when he sees them, he might. We just haven't been told about it yet... but we will, I suspect.

A lot of good questions and points on this thread, everyone!

Des' consciousness is still susceptible to time dislodging. When Daniel tells him, outside the Swan, this has always-already happened. It isn't new, necessarily, but Des' memory of it has changed. He remembers it, or says he remembers it, just after this son is born. I think that this might be a slight cheat with the story for timing and so on, but, I agree completely with Nikki that this does not evidence (or "posit," what a philosophical word!) an alternate, or ontologically different, time-line.

Ben, Sun, Frank, et al, are in 2007 because of everything that has happened, we just don't know completely what that is/was.
I just want to say, your whole post was great. Such a clear explanation of everything! I really like this part. Such a classic thing to have happen on Lost. It really hearkens back to the original set up of the show, present actions that don't make total sense into they re informed by flashbacks.

I just want to say, your whole post was great. Such a clear explanation of everything! I really like this part. Such a classic thing to have happen on Lost. It really hearkens back to the original set up of the show, present actions that don't make total sense into they re informed by flashbacks.

jennylee27:

That's very nice, thank you. I was going to respond to you piece about Ben, but, I realized I was just repeating what you had said, so I scratched it.

I am in love with the idea that our '77 Dharma Kate, et al have in fact made Ben into what they will encounter --- that would be, oh, delicious!

When I think of Lost, I always remember the psychoanalyst Jacques Lacan's concept about meaning: it is the future perfect. It will have been.

A lot of good questions and points on this thread, everyone!

Des' consciousness is still susceptible to time dislodging. When Daniel tells him, outside the Swan, this has always-already happened. It isn't new, necessarily, but Des' memory of it has changed. He remembers it, or says he remembers it, just after this son is born. I think that this might be a slight cheat with the story for timing and so on, but, I agree completely with Nikki that this does not evidence (or "posit," what a philosophical word!) an alternate, or ontologically different, time-line.

You win Internet points for noting the word "posit" and following it with "ontologically." :laughing:

If true, then why does older Ben need lists when 815 crashes ? If he knew about the crash, he'd have the information prepared.

I don't think he needs the list..I think his people do....and I also believe that he is the one to know that in order for time to replay itself (and for them to get back there) it needs to play out exactly the same...

Yes, he did need the list! There are many signs pointing to Ben not knowing exactly how this whole thing plays out, the main one being Alex's death.

While Ben may know that this has all played out before, he may also be aware that the "rules" may potentially be broken. Something (actually quite a few things) makes me believe that each time around is never quite the same as the previous.

This record may have played through before, but maybe it has never made it to the end. Maybe as the end approaches the record skips back to the beginning. Therefore no one knows what the next one in line on the jukebox might be.
That's a good question. I am in the minority who thinks time can change. Obviously it can if daniel can tell Desmond to find his mom. I liken it to the principle in back to the future 2. When the losties go back in time to 1977 everything they do could change something in the future, creating an alternate time line. Things could look very similar, but they could be changed, we don't know, we have not seen anything but the shack at the end of the episode.
Hate to be repetitive but we also saw 1996 affected by Desmond's TTing. Des bought the ring which he apparently had not done before.....if he had, I'd assume Ms. H would have met up with him at his next stop on the line. Then there was the difference in the cricket game score and the bartender's actions. All affects leading to the same ultimate result.

Alternate means seperate or different to me. It also throws many on these boards up in arms "they said no alternate realities."

So I prefer to look at it as one "tt'ed and affected" loop of time.
i don't agree with your magic bullet of desmond used to fix everything. that's a cop out.
Nor do I. At least not without a sci-fi/tt befitting explanation. The only differences I can see with Des so far is that 1) he was off the Island while being spoken to by Dan on the Island and was able to remember it. 2) his adventures with CTT:

Physical Time Loop
In a physical time loop (rarely seen in the media), the spacetime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime) loops around to form several closed timelike curves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve). Since the time in that region is looped, you could only escape it by leaving the affected area. Also, there would be an infinite number of copies of any matter in the area, unless an object left the loop. In that case, there would only be as many copies of that object as many times it completed the loop. This type of time loop cannot be ended or destroyed.
Conscious Time Loop
In a conscious time loop, one or more persons' consciousnesses loop through time. In such a time loop, causality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality) could easily be violated. This is not an easy thing to accept in main physics time travel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_travel) research, for the only way to cause such an occurrence via current theories would be to use a time machine of some sort to send all of the data in someone's brain back in time over and over. However, this is not a problem for metaphysical beliefs.




.

I don't think you can compare it to Back to the Future time travel. There are many theories of time out there - the writers have clearly picked one of them to explore through the show. They didn't make this stuff up - these are pre-existing theories of how time works and how time travel would work within the fabric of space-time. You can't combine the theories - alternate timelines could only happen here if they were to a) abandon the theory of time they have been carefully constructing for us through the character of Daniel, or b) their one noted wild card, Desmond, makes a change.

This isn't Back to the Future time theory - it's 12 Monkeys, or Terminator 1 time theory. If you are a science buff, it's essentially Novikov's self-consistency principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle).

Nikki:

Had to comment on this; completely agree!

Somewhere, before watching Lost, I had thought of the various ways time-travel was depicted in film -- Back to the Future and Superman, especially, versus the second which you describe, I also called it the Prisoner of Azkaban time-travel paradigm, since it is so nicely and neatly distilled there, too.

But, I completely agree with your points and your noting of the self-consistency principle is "spot on," as Charlie would say.

I cringe when I hear people say that this rejects the validity of "free will," or that being able to change the past "raises the stakes," etc, precisely because they fail to understand that the reality in which one time-travels is the reality in which one has chosen to time-travel. Of course, in a strange way, like Harry Potter in Prisoner of Azkaban, finding a universe in which he saves himself, he is saved, it is done, he has saved himself, but precisely because it is done he has to work to achieve it. I consider this dimension of Lost to be the most profound: the Event has occurred, and now the real work to make what will happen to have happened must begin. Contingency and necessity are the same, or, rather, they are different, but only retroactively, like a ontological shift. A parallax view. What is Lost but a fugue of parallaxes of parallaxes?

Nikki:

Had to comment on this; completely agree!

Somewhere, before watching Lost, I had thought of the various ways time-travel was depicted in film -- Back to the Future and Superman, especially, versus the second which you describe, I also called it the Prisoner of Azkaban time-travel paradigm, since it is so nicely and neatly distilled there, too.

But, I completely agree with your points and your noting of the self-consistency principle is "spot on," as Charlie would say.

I cringe when I hear people say that this rejects the validity of "free will," or that being able to change the past "raises the stakes," etc, precisely because they fail to understand that the reality in which one time-travels is the reality in which one has chosen to time-travel. Of course, in a strange way, like Harry Potter in Prisoner of Azkaban, finding a universe in which he saves himself, he is saved, it is done, he has saved himself, but precisely because it is done he has to work to achieve it. I consider this dimension of Lost to be the most profound: the Event has occurred, and now the real work to make what will happen to have happened must begin. Contingency and necessity are the same, or, rather, they are different, but only retroactively, like a ontological shift. A parallax view. What is Lost but a fugue of parallaxes of parallaxes?

Yes - Azkaban is another good example of this line of thought! Free will still exists, but we already know the outcome, so we know what types of decisions will be made to get to that point.

I LOVE the description of Lost as a "fugue of parallaxes of parallaxes" - perfectly apt. I think Lost does a great job of illustrating how pivotal perspective is in telling this story, especially since television is such a difficult medium to use to explore these ideas. The show always felt more like an epic novel to me. :)

You are thinking to linear. Time has been changed. NOW young ben has met the losties. The new future is set where sun/ben/frank are. The purge never happened from the looks of the otherville.

we're supposed to think linear. both Faraday and Darlton have clearly stated that you can't change the past or the future.

Yes.As evidenced by the fact that Ben knows Sayid likes mustard!

If Ben met Sayid as a boy, he would recognize Sayid when he sees him as an adult. I think it's safe to say that young Ben will meet all of the Losties (and Juliet).

It's interesting to think that Ben recognized these people all along. I can't wait to see the interactions between young Ben and the Losties.
I'm not buying it...I don't think this is a "whatever happened, happened" thing. I am under the belief that most of what we are seeing is "new time"... i think Widmore/Ben/O6 changed the rules somehow somewhere, and as a result they are all now alterring how things were done, or perhaps even Ben changed the "course/time" when he purged dharma and all this time, all along the island was trying to correct what happened and Ben was preventing it. I'm assuming that Ben did NOT know the Losties when they met. That's just me though.

That's a good question. I am in the minority who thinks time can change. Obviously it can if daniel can tell Desmond to find his mom. I liken it to the principle in back to the future 2. When the losties go back in time to 1977 everything they do could change something in the future, creating an alternate time line. Things could look very similar, but they could be changed, we don't know, we have not seen anything but the shack at the end of the episode.

I am curious why they have the greeting for the recruits at the dock now. It was there when ben and his dad arrived, but in 1977 it was at the main camp. What if Christian moved it there, like he moves the cabin. I don't necessarily disagree with people, but i can not accept definitively that time has not changed, especially since we have seen it change. You can not assume Ben has known the losties all along. They were not always there in 1977, they arrived there when the island stopped moving them through time.

I just think they don't tell the young Ben anything. Later, when 815 crashes, he gets the lists and remembrs some of the names. Wouldn't be too difficult for him to find the old employee lists and see the same names 27 years earlier.

That or my overall feeling that these new storylines weren't in the pipeline until recently, or TPTB realise that most of the audience will believe everything they see or forgive them some plotholes.

Makes me laugh when some fans think there's been an intricate masterplan the producers have kept to since Season 1.
100%
I don't think you can compare it to Back to the Future time travel. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle).

True - In BTTF Marty changes the ' future ' by meddling in the past. In Lost, they have chosen that this cannot happen.

There are different theories but as long as they stick to the same theory during Lost, or BTTF, then you'll have continuity. My problems with Lost are the unexplained holes - Rousseau not recognising Jin and Desmond not recognising Faraday. " Mental issues " isn't a good enough answer as Rousseau has remembered plenty.
100%
I'm not buying it...I don't think this is a "whatever happened, happened" thing. I am under the belief that most of what we are seeing is "new time"... i think Widmore/Ben/O6 changed the rules somehow somewhere, and as a result they are all now alterring how things were done, or perhaps even Ben changed the "course/time" when he purged dharma and all this time, all along the island was trying to correct what happened and Ben was preventing it. I'm assuming that Ben did NOT know the Losties when they met. That's just me though.


Sorry, but you'd be wrong.
100%
Yes, he did need the list! There are many signs pointing to Ben not knowing exactly how this whole thing plays out, the main one being Alex's death.

While Ben may know that this has all played out before, he may also be aware that the "rules" may potentially be broken.



.

How on Earth does a young boy react to being told you're from the future and have met him as an older man ?

There's no way they tell him.

But i'm also of the opinion that when Ben saw Sayid from his trap way back when, this stortyline wasn't in place. They're doing their best to knit it all together

TT question: Why has no one met "themselves" yet when Time Travelling? Do you think this is why Ben didnt go back to 1977, cause he was already there?

TT question: Why has no one met "themselves" yet when Time Travelling? Do you think this is why Ben didnt go back to 1977, cause he was already there?

There's a theory that if you met yourself there'd be a paradox, black hole or somesuch.

And it's not because he was already there - there are 2 Sawyers on the island in 2004 when Kate delivers Claire's baby

If Ben met Sayid as a boy, he would recognize Sayid when he sees him as an adult. I think it's safe to say that young Ben will meet all of the Losties (and Juliet).

It's interesting to think that Ben recognized these people all along. I can't wait to see the interactions between young Ben and the Losties.

PLEASE forgive me if this was stated. I just skimmed through here:

Remember, they are stuck in a loop or arch like time frame. So, it starts in 2004 and ends???? Does this make sense? So, the first time Ben sees them is in 2004. Right?
100%
...

And it's not because he was already there - there are 2 Sawyers on the island in 2004 when Kate delivers Claire's baby

Yes, I've thought of this too and wondered if there are not TWO Jacks sometimes and they trade places without us knowing? For example, Jack of 2007 knocks out the Jack of 2004 in order to complete a task? Or Ben does? Since the two are NOT suppose to get close to each other?

PLEASE forgive me if this was stated. I just skimmed through here:

Remember, they are stuck in a loop or arch like time frame. So, it starts in 2004 and ends???? Does this make sense? So, the first time Ben sees them is in 2004. Right?
100%


Yes, I've thought of this too and wondered if there are not TWO Jacks sometimes and they trade places without us knowing? For example, Jack of 2007 knocks out the Jack of 2004 in order to complete a task? Or Ben does? Since the two are NOT suppose to get close to each other?

So whilst Sawyer is at the clearing watch Kate and Claire, the Sawyer at the beach ' disappears ' until the other leaves ? I seriously doubt that's it because events are still running in ' real time ' and people would notice Sawyer vanishing :biggrin:

jennylee27:

That's very nice, thank you. I was going to respond to you piece about Ben, but, I realized I was just repeating what you had said, so I scratched it.

I am in love with the idea that our '77 Dharma Kate, et al have in fact made Ben into what they will encounter --- that would be, oh, delicious!

When I think of Lost, I always remember the psychoanalyst Jacques Lacan's concept about meaning: it is the future perfect. It will have been.

Wouldn't that make everything Ben and Kate have in 'common' all totally add up? All of their weird behaviors are learned on a loop? :D!



I cringe when I hear people say that this rejects the validity of "free will," or that being able to change the past "raises the stakes," etc, precisely because they fail to understand that the reality in which one time-travels is the reality in which one has chosen to time-travel.

..The way I'm seeing all of this is that it's more along the lines of keeping everyone else on track. Should something go 'off' yes everything will take a different route, and maybe not one for the better. That dosen't mean that people involved won't have free will (obviously they do). It reminds me of those "choose your fate" books some of us read as a kid...you pick from several different endings at the end of a chapter..and it will lead you in a different direction.

I consider this dimension of Lost to be the most profound: the Event has occurred, and now the real work to make what will happen to have happened must begin.

EXACTLY.


Yes.As evidenced by the fact that Ben knows Sayid likes mustard!


:yes:

So whilst Sawyer is at the clearing watch Kate and Claire, the Sawyer at the beach ' disappears ' until the other leaves ? I seriously doubt that's it because events are still running in ' real time ' and people would notice Sawyer vanishing :biggrin:

Silly goose! I never said disappear! Knock out... like punch the lights out!

So, 2004 Jack is on the beach sees his Dad in the jungle and goes running after him. Was this a distraction so the Jack of 2007 could do something? During Claire's giving birth to Aaron, was Sawyer being distracted with the raft building? So, he stayed away from Kate?

try to think of someone you met 30 years ago. if you ran into someone today that was the same age they were then, would you recognize them (let alone remember their name)? i'm 27 right now. when i was 10, i was in third grade. if i were to see anyone from my class (students or teacher) and they looked exactly like they did then, i wouldn't recognize them.
i can see where they might be trying to set this up, but i find it a little hard to believe. i doubt that they are going to tell young Ben that they have traveled back in time. if Ben doesn't know that they time traveled, what reason would he have to be looking for them to crash on the island 30 years later?

try to think of someone you met 30 years ago. if you ran into someone today that was the same age they were then, would you recognize them (let alone remember their name)? i'm 27 right now. when i was 10, i was in third grade. if i were to see anyone from my class (students or teacher) and they looked exactly like they did then, i wouldn't recognize them.
i can see where they might be trying to set this up, but i find it a little hard to believe. i doubt that they are going to tell young Ben that they have traveled back in time. if Ben doesn't know that they time traveled, what reason would he have to be looking for them to crash on the island 30 years later?
I agree. I'm 38, so only a little younger than grown-up Ben. I remember only a couple teachers' names from when I was 10-14, and a vague memory of what they looked like, and those are teachers that I had a lot of interaction with over a couple years. We have yet to see how much interaction Ben is going to have with the Losties, but from what we've seen so far I see no reason to expect him to recognize any of them after the crash, at least if his memory is like mine. But of course different people have different memory capabilities, and Ben's does seem rather exceptional.

We'll have to see what interaction he has with them, but I seriously doubt they're going to tell him about flight 815 or anything like that. Why would they?
100%
Makes me laugh when some fans think there's been an intricate masterplan the producers have kept to since Season 1.
It makes my jaw hang open in disbelief when some fans still think they're just making it up as the go along.

My problems with Lost are the unexplained holes - Rousseau not recognising Jin and Desmond not recognising Faraday. " Mental issues " isn't a good enough answer as Rousseau has remembered plenty.
These are "unexplained" because no explanation should be necessary. I have never met or even heard of anyone who was capable of recognizing someone in a crowd that they knew for a just a day or two, sixteen years ago.
100%
Except he did change things by telling Desmond to do things in the future. Why did Desmond wait until after his child was born to go talk to Daniel's mother? If he knew about it way back when, why wait so long to go talk to her?
He didn't. Desmond only remembered the conversation in 2007. That wasn't a change, that's just when he remembered. Desmond's memory and/or consciousness tends to do funky temporal jumps like that when destiny (aka the plotline) demands it. That's what makes him special, not any ability to change the past or the future.
100%

Physical Time Loop
In a physical time loop (rarely seen in the media), the spacetime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spacetime) loops around to form several closed timelike curves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve). Since the time in that region is looped, you could only escape it by leaving the affected area. Also, there would be an infinite number of copies of any matter in the area, unless an object left the loop. In that case, there would only be as many copies of that object as many times it completed the loop. This type of time loop cannot be ended or destroyed.
No one can ever enter or exit a "closed timelike curve". Closed means closed -- self contained -- there is no entry point or exit point in spacetime. Normal objects follow a timelike curve that starts with the creation of the object and ends with the destruction of the object. An object in a closed timelike curve has no creation or destruction; its existence is a continuous loop. While such a worldline can be supported by physics, an object that follows such a worldline can much less easily be: An object in a closed timelike curve can not age or change. If it aged or changed, the curve wouldn't be closed, as it would be a different object the next time through the loop. So nothing conscious, as we think of the term, can be in a closed timelike loop, because conscious things remember experiences and percieve the passage of time. In short, while a closed timelike loop may be an interesting novelty from the point of view of studing General Relativity, I don't think it could make into a very interesting component of a story, as it basically cannot interact with anything in the normal universe.
100%
we can see now why he had to build the runway...he knew HE was going to need it in the future.Without that for Frank to land the plane on, he would be dead!!
That's what I started thinking, but that brings up some difficult questions, like how would Ben know that the plane was going down over the Hydra island instead of the main island? But Damon and Carlton cleared this one up on the last podcast and pretty much flat out told us that...
Jacob told Ben to build the runway.

I have no trouble with Ben remembering the Lostaways. I have a feeling that someone is going to tell him to remember them. They may even suggest he keep a journal. Maybe our mad physicist.

You have to hand it to the writers of this show.

Is this "little" things that make your head spin. :eek2:

If he knew then back then, THEN he chose them to be on the plane? Or was he like Widmore with Locke: Expecting them!

Maybe when Ben blew up at Jack about "all the things I've done to keep you safe," it covered more than just the last three years? Ben knew these particular people had to be in the Dharma initiate in 1977. So maybe Ben took steps to heard them to the island in 2004, and to keep them there until the time traveling started?

I just think they don't tell the young Ben anything. Later, when 815 crashes, he gets the lists and remembrs some of the names. Wouldn't be too difficult for him to find the old employee lists and see the same names 27 years earlier.

That or my overall feeling that these new storylines weren't in the pipeline until recently, or TPTB realise that most of the audience will believe everything they see or forgive them some plotholes.

Makes me laugh when some fans think there's been an intricate masterplan the producers have kept to since Season 1.
100%


True - In BTTF Marty changes the ' future ' by meddling in the past. In Lost, they have chosen that this cannot happen.

There are different theories but as long as they stick to the same theory during Lost, or BTTF, then you'll have continuity. My problems with Lost are the unexplained holes - Rousseau not recognising Jin and Desmond not recognising Faraday. " Mental issues " isn't a good enough answer as Rousseau has remembered plenty.
100%



Sorry, but you'd be wrong.
100%


How on Earth does a young boy react to being told you're from the future and have met him as an older man ?

There's no way they tell him.

But i'm also of the opinion that when Ben saw Sayid from his trap way back when, this stortyline wasn't in place. They're doing their best to knit it all together


How does he react? This young man had nothing going for him. If the Losties told him as a child their story he'd hold onto the dream and obsess about it his entire life. Remember the only friend he had was little Annie. What ever happened to her? He'd never tell his father anything about his Lostie friends and their great story.

Following on from that :

There's no way that when Rousseau showed Ben to Sayid when she first captured him that this storyline was part of the show. Not a flicker from Ben / Henry when he sees Sayid from his trap in the tree.

Ben is a psychopath, or at the very least severely antisocial. You can't expect him to have the same emotional reactions as mentally balanced person. If Ben was surprised to see Sayid, I don't doubt that he could completely contain it to try and use the situation to his advantage.

If Ben knew what was going to happen, why does he order the death of Jin ? Why the huge effort at the end of season 3 to stop the Losties ?
Jin seems to travel around the outskirst of the island on patrol quite a bit. It could be that young Ben never really noticed him. And off-island, Ben seemed really surprised to learn from Locke that Jin was still alive. That doesn't bode well for Jin in 1977.

Does Ben remember Richard from 1977 because he continues to see him?

I have people from my past I remember to this day. I'm going to say that it is possible for Ben to remember a few of the Losties. The ones who make an impact on his life.

HOWEVER, since LOST is happening in a loop or circle, it could be the Loop started in 2004, so Ben could NOT have any memory of the Losties. Guess we will find out soon how the writers are going to move forward with the story.

try to think of someone you met 30 years ago. if you ran into someone today that was the same age they were then, would you recognize them (let alone remember their name)? i'm 27 right now. when i was 10, i was in third grade. if i were to see anyone from my class (students or teacher) and they looked exactly like they did then, i wouldn't recognize them.
i can see where they might be trying to set this up, but i find it a little hard to believe. i doubt that they are going to tell young Ben that they have traveled back in time. if Ben doesn't know that they time traveled, what reason would he have to be looking for them to crash on the island 30 years later?


If you were taken back to your school and one of them said their name, you'd recognise them.
It's all about context - on that island, a young boy called Ben ? It's a no-brainer.

Had it been in a Macdonalds 30 years later, i'd understand, but these people have spent the most significant part of their lives on that island and the name " Ben " is etched into their brain.
100%
Does Ben remember Richard from 1977 because he continues to see him?

I have people from my past I remember to this day. I'm going to say that it is possible for Ben to remember a few of the Losties. The ones who make an impact on his life.

HOWEVER, since LOST is happening in a loop or circle, it could be the Loop started in 2004, so Ben could NOT have any memory of the Losties. Guess we will find out soon how the writers are going to move forward with the story.

No, now that Ben has seen Sayid in 1977, if he were to go back to 2004 and ask Ben ( and manage to get a straight answer out of him ! ) he'd tell him that he met him in 1977.
100%


It makes my jaw hang open in disbelief when some fans still think they're just making it up as the go along.



They have to. Actors getting DUI's, audience reactions to certain storylines and interfering Network Execs says they have to.

Ok..speculate...

How do our 1977 Losties get off the island so they can crash again in 2004?

I am so confused.

My theory is that the ones who will crash on the island in 2004 are now living as children, babies, and the not-yet-born in 1977, off-island. And the Losties we see in 1977 will age or die from 1977 forward.

If true, then why does older Ben need lists when 815 crashes ? If he knew about the crash, he'd have the information prepared.

Ben didn't know the whole story. He didn't know for sure who arrived on the Island in 2004 from 815 or the freighter. He might have been looking for different names.
Juliet didn't come on 815 or the freighter and who knows what name she last name she was using in 1977.
Jack, Kate and Hurley used their real last names when in 1977.
Sawyer was using LaFleur in 1977.
What was Jin's last name in 1977?
We haven't heard what last name Sayid is using in 1977 either.
Neither Miles nor Daniel were on the flight and what last names were they using?
Ben never met Charlotte in 1977.

Ok..speculate...

How do our 1977 Losties get off the island so they can crash again in 2004?

I am so confused.

The 1977 Losties are still in 1977 and haven't met yet and will still crash. The 2007 Losties are on the 1977 island.

You are thinking to linear. Time has been changed. NOW young ben has met the losties. The new future is set where sun/ben/frank are. The purge never happened from the looks of the otherville.


that is your opinion not confirmed

that is your opinion not confirmed
I agree.

If you were taken back to your school and one of them said their name, you'd recognise them.
It's all about context - on that island, a young boy called Ben ? It's a no-brainer.

Had it been in a Macdonalds 30 years later, i'd understand, but these people have spent the most significant part of their lives on that island and the name " Ben " is etched into their brain.
100%

you have what i was saying backwards. i'm saying that a young ben most likely would not remember a random middle eastern man 30 years later.

I still think the timeline happens more than once. First time around Ethan was born by someone else, Ben didn't give Sayid a sandwich, etc. Remember how Desmond got Daniels memory implanted? Same thing will of happened to Ben.
Now they've gone backto 1977 and they're changing it, memories will be implanted, events will be changed. Judging by the Barracks, the hostiles dont exist in 2007 anymore, something killed em all off.

You are thinking to linear. Time has been changed. NOW young ben has met the losties. The new future is set where sun/ben/frank are. The purge never happened from the looks of the otherville.


If the purge doesn't happen, 815 doesn't crash.

We've already seen Locke meet Alpert and set up his own path to the island - Alpert visits him when he's born and they all know who Locke is...because of Locke travelling back to 1954 and telling them.

It's the same with Ben. That 1977 meeting between Ben and Sayid always happened - it's exactly like Locke talking to Alpert.

The only person who appears to have the ability to change something is Desmond, but i think even he is bound by some rules and this is why i don't understand how Desmond didn't recognise Faraday when they met last season, as they obviously met outside the hatch door before 815 crashed.
Seems to be a continuity issue there, or Faraday is " special " too.
100%
I still think the timeline happens more than once. First time around Ethan was born by someone else, Ben didn't give Sayid a sandwich, etc. Remember how Desmond got Daniels memory implanted? Same thing will of happened to Ben.
Now they've gone backto 1977 and they're changing it, memories will be implanted, events will be changed. Judging by the Barracks, the hostiles dont exist in 2007 anymore, something killed em all off.

Like i've just said, none of that is possible if you look at the example the writers have given us with Locke.
Locke always walked into the 1954 camp so Alpert always went to visit him when he was born.
Juliet always delivered Ethan, Ben always delivered the sandwich:biggrin:

The only person who appears to have the ability to change something is Desmond, but i think even he is bound by some rules and this is why i don't understand how Desmond didn't recognise Faraday when they met last season, as they obviously met outside the hatch door before 815 crashed.
Seems to be a continuity issue there, or Faraday is " special " too.

Desmond didn't recognize Faraday when they met last season because they hadn't met at that point. they did not meet outside the hatch when Desmond was pushing the button pre 815 crash. It wasn't until the Losties were flashing through time that it happened. For whatever reason, the Whatever Happened Happened Rule doesn't apply to Desmond. It seems like no matter how hard they would try to alter someone's past (kill Ben for example), it won't work. The one person that they can alter their past is Desmond as we saw Faraday do. When he altered Desmond's past, the memory appeared in his subconscious at that point. This can't happen to anyone else. i'm sure this will become imporant at some point in the story.

If the purge doesn't happen, 815 doesn't crash.

We've already seen Locke meet Alpert and set up his own path to the island - Alpert visits him when he's born and they all know who Locke is...because of Locke travelling back to 1954 and telling them.

It's the same with Ben. That 1977 meeting between Ben and Sayid always happened - it's exactly like Locke talking to Alpert.

The only person who appears to have the ability to change something is Desmond, but i think even he is bound by some rules and this is why i don't understand how Desmond didn't recognise Faraday when they met last season, as they obviously met outside the hatch door before 815 crashed.
Seems to be a continuity issue there, or Faraday is " special " too.
100%


Like i've just said, none of that is possible if you look at the example the writers have given us with Locke.
Locke always walked into the 1954 camp so Alpert always went to visit him when he was born.
Juliet always delivered Ethan, Ben always delivered the sandwich:biggrin:
See people say that Locke sending Richard to see him is proof/ a time loop, not a paradox. but it clearly is.
Locke tells Richard to go see him, so Richard ends up recruiting him to the island, so Locke then gets there and tells Richard to recruit him, etc etc. But who did it first? Locke can't have told Richard to recruit him, else he'd already be there, so he had to be recruited, but if he had to, Locke had to tell Richard.

It's the question "which came first, the Chicken or the Egg?" it's an age old paradox, with no real clarification to which did happen first. Not unless the loop of events was just "popped" into existence.
It also pains me to think no matter what, from season one they will always go back in time, then forward, then back, etc, then time will loop again, so they all get sent to the island, thensent back, to go forward, to go back, to get themselves to the island, to go forward, to go back.

It's just an awful repeated loop of events that'l always happen, and it does bug me to think long after they get off the island if they do) they're still techincally there looping.

Desmond didn't recognize Faraday when they met last season because they hadn't met at that point. they did not meet outside the hatch when Desmond was pushing the button pre 815 crash. It wasn't until the Losties were flashing through time that it happened. For whatever reason, the Whatever Happened Happened Rule doesn't apply to Desmond. It seems like no matter how hard they would try to alter someone's past (kill Ben for example), it won't work. The one person that they can alter their past is Desmond as we saw Faraday do. When he altered Desmond's past, the memory appeared in his subconscious at that point. This can't happen to anyone else. i'm sure this will become imporant at some point in the story.

Why did Alpert visit Locke being born ? Because he'd met him in 1954. Had Locke's time leaps begun at that point ? No.

Desmond saw 2005 Faraday outside the Hatch before 2004 Faraday turned up.


You're not understanding the time travel theory used here.


And even if the rule doesn't apply to Desmond, i should apply to Faraday and Faraday being the instigator of that meeting means it would have actually happened.
100%
See people say that Locke sending Richard to see him is proof/ a time loop, not a paradox. but it clearly is.
Locke tells Richard to go see him, so Richard ends up recruiting him to the island, so Locke then gets there and tells Richard to recruit him, etc etc. But who did it first? Locke can't have told Richard to recruit him, else he'd already be there, so he had to be recruited, but if he had to, Locke had to tell Richard.

It's the question "which came first, the Chicken or the Egg?" it's an age old paradox, with no real clarification to which did happen first. Not unless the loop of events was just "popped" into existence.
It also pains me to think no matter what, from season one they will always go back in time, then forward, then back, etc, then time will loop again, so they all get sent to the island, thensent back, to go forward, to go back, to get themselves to the island, to go forward, to go back.

It's just an awful repeated loop of events that'l always happen, and it does bug me to think long after they get off the island if they do) they're still techincally there looping.

This isn't chicken and egg stuff, it's really very simple.

It's 1954. 2004 Locke turns up and leaves. Time continues through to 1956 when Locke is born and onto 2004 where Locke crashes on 815 and then time leaps.

You don't have to wait to 2004 the first time for the 1954 meeting to occur. It happens because Locke is travelling back in time.

Someone could walk through your door tomorrow, say that he's from 2020 and give you a watch he says you've given him. You live your life for the next 11 years and events transpire along the way so as you're giving man a watch in 2020 to take back to your 2009 self.

You don't have to wait for 2020 to happen " the first time " to trigger the events off. Travelling back in time is exactly that.

You could travel back to the moment Kennedy was shot and see it happen and back in 63 when Kennedy was shot you would have always been there. If someone took a photo of that scene in Dallas, you'd have been on it.

I know i'm repeating myself a little but i'm surprised at how many people are having trouble with the time travel theory used here.

Maybe it's the idea that 2 Locke's can exist at one time and that when Sawyer is watching Kate deliver Claire's baby, there are 2 Sawyers on the island

Why did Alpert visit Locke being born ? Because he'd met him in 1954. Had Locke's time leaps begun at that point ? No.

Desmond saw 2005 Faraday outside the Hatch before 2004 Faraday turned up.


You're not understanding the time travel theory used here.


And even if the rule doesn't apply to Desmond, i should apply to Faraday and Faraday being the instigator of that meeting means it would have actually happened.
100%


This isn't chicken and egg stuff, it's really very simple.

It's 1954. 2004 Locke turns up and leaves. Time continues through to 1956 when Locke is born and onto 2004 where Locke crashes on 815 and then time leaps.

You don't have to wait to 2004 the first time for the 1954 meeting to occur. It happens because Locke is travelling back in time.

Someone could walk through your door tomorrow, say that he's from 2020 and give you a watch he says you've given him. You live your life for the next 11 years and events transpire along the way so as you're giving man a watch in 2020 to take back to your 2009 self.

You don't have to wait for 2020 to happen " the first time " to trigger the events off. Travelling back in time is exactly that.

You could travel back to the moment Kennedy was shot and see it happen and back in 63 when Kennedy was shot you would have always been there. If someone took a photo of that scene in Dallas, you'd have been on it.

I know i'm repeating myself a little but i'm surprised at how many people are having trouble with the time travel theory used here.
i understand exactly how it's happening. i know that there's no first time. there's only time. i am just stating that things are different with Desmond. when desmond was in the swan pushing the button before the crash, he had never met Faraday who tells him to find his mother. this is the only time on the show that someone has changed the past. and the only reason they were able to do it was by using desmond who is special. every other time that they have flashed to another time period, they were always there. it is clear that faraday and desmond did not meet initially because right when faraday changed the past, desmond's recollection of the event appeared. if this were not the case, the writers would not have set the scene up like they did. when john locke runs into alpert in 54, the show did not flash to present day alpert where he suddenly says, i now remember that i met john locke in 1954. but when faraday tells desmond to find his mother, it flashes to present day desmond who suddenly has a memory of an event that was not there before. he clearly changed the past. if faraday had always told desmond to find his mother, when desmond first talked to faraday in the Constant, he would have said to him, i remember you. you were the guy who told me to find his mother a few years ago.

i understand exactly how it's happening. i know that there's no first time. there's only time. i am just stating that things are different with Desmond. when desmond was in the swan pushing the button before the crash, he had never met Faraday who tells him to find his mother. this is the only time on the show that someone has changed the past. and the only reason they were able to do it was by using desmond who is special. every other time that they have flashed to another time period, they were always there. it is clear that faraday and desmond did not meet initially because right when faraday changed the past, desmond's recollection of the event appeared.

But Desmond didn't do anything. It was Faraday who knocked on the door. It was Faraday who initiated that meeting.

If it didn't happen before, then Faraday is also special

Why did Alpert visit Locke being born ? Because he'd met him in 1954. Had Locke's time leaps begun at that point ? No.

Desmond saw 2005 Faraday outside the Hatch before 2004 Faraday turned up.


You're not understanding the time travel theory used here.


And even if the rule doesn't apply to Desmond, i should apply to Faraday and Faraday being the instigator of that meeting means it would have actually happened.
100%


This isn't chicken and egg stuff, it's really very simple.

It's 1954. 2004 Locke turns up and leaves. Time continues through to 1956 when Locke is born and onto 2004 where Locke crashes on 815 and then time leaps.

You don't have to wait to 2004 the first time for the 1954 meeting to occur. It happens because Locke is travelling back in time.

Someone could walk through your door tomorrow, say that he's from 2020 and give you a watch he says you've given him. You live your life for the next 11 years and events transpire along the way so as you're giving man a watch in 2020 to take back to your 2009 self.

You don't have to wait for 2020 to happen " the first time " to trigger the events off. Travelling back in time is exactly that.

You could travel back to the moment Kennedy was shot and see it happen and back in 63 when Kennedy was shot you would have always been there. If someone took a photo of that scene in Dallas, you'd have been on it.

I know i'm repeating myself a little but i'm surprised at how many people are having trouble with the time travel theory used here.

Maybe it's the idea that 2 Locke's can exist at one time and that when Sawyer is watching Kate deliver Claire's baby, there are 2 Sawyers on the island
While that works in that example, it still bears the question, if said person gave me a watch I give him to give to me, where does the watch come from? Who gave it to him in the first place?

While that works in that example, it still bears the question, if said person gave me a watch I give him to give to me, where does the watch come from? Who gave it to him in the first place?

You !

You !
Yes, but I didn't get the watch until I was given it. Where did it magically appear from? Was it brought in the first time loop, which then changed so it just rotated hands over and over? these things make little sense without more depth/explanation.

faraday is not special in that he can change time. he was just the only one to know that desmond is the exception to the rule that he has been beating to death - whatever happened happened. if faraday had not told sawyer to give up, desmond would have opened the door eventually. this does not make sawyer or faraday special. desmond is special because he is the person through which ANYONE can change the past. the reason that others haven't is because only faraday knows this secret. this is why i think this will become an important issue because someone (Ben or Widmore) might try to use desmond to change an event that has or will potentially happen.

Yes, but I didn't get the watch until I was given it. Where did it magically appear from? Was it brought in the first time loop, which then changed so it just rotated hands over and over? these things make little sense without more depth/explanation.

The 2020 you gives it to the time traveller, he gives it to you in 2010 , you keep it until 2020...

See my problem with the fact they cant change anything. So either every event is predetermined, or it's bollocks. Say Lefleur is not meant to blow up the entire village, as it still exists in 2004, what would happen? would the explosives just not detonate over and over?
By the logic of something that isn't meant to happen can't happen, all laws of physics can be changed. You could drive a camper off a cliff edge and just bounce about on the rocks, as that camper wasn't meant to be destroyed.
The 2020 you gives it to the time traveller, he gives it to you in 2010 , you keep it until 2020...
Wow. You REALLY don't get this. Yes the 2020 me gave me the watch, which he got from me, which I got from him, but again if neither of us owned such a watch, how can such a watch exist? Can someone else help this guy understand?
I'm trying to say how this would work in comparison to my earlier post about Locke sending Richard to get Locke to the island, to get Richard to get Locke. My point is it's a paradox as such an event can't happen if it requires the event to happen.

faraday is not special in that he can change time..

Then how is he stood outside the hatch for Desmond to see him if it didn't happen before ?

You're not making sense.

You say Desmond would have opened the door eventually. To what ? Nothing ? It obviously wasn't Sawyer. If it was nothing then Faraday has changed time, not Desmond

It's either a big plothole or Faraday is special.

Then how is he stood outside the hatch for Desmond to see him if it didn't happen before ?

You're not making sense.

You say Desmond would have opened the door eventually. To what ? Nothing ? It obviously wasn't Sawyer. If it was nothing then Faraday has changed time, not Desmond

It's either a big plothole or Faraday is special.
Because whatever happened, happened is bogus. If you see my above post, if Sawyer can't summon Desmond to the door, what would happen? If it wasn't meant to happen, then what? He could break down the door, run inside and see nothing as that's not meant to happen?

Wow. You REALLY don't get this. Yes the 2020 me gave me the watch, which he got from me, which I got from him, but again if neither of us owned such a watch, how can such a watch exist? Can someone else help this guy understand?
I'm trying to say how this would work in comparison to my earlier post about Locke sending Richard to get Locke to the island, to get Richard to get Locke. My point is it's a paradox as such an event can't happen if it requires the event to happen.

Listen


In 2010 you're given the watch by a time traveler. You keep it. In 2020 you give it to the time traveler to give to you in 2010 to give to him later in life as proof.

The watch always existed. You don't need to get to 2020 first for the watch to exist and to trigger the chain of events.

If Ben knew what was going to happen, why does he order the death of Jin ? Why the huge effort at the end of season 3 to stop the Losties ?

I think he orders the death of Jin because he knows Jin will survive since he sees him in the 70's. So if Jin survives, then someone must spill their guts and tell them the plan, and Bernard does.


Originally Posted by Holmes
If true, then why does older Ben need lists when 815 crashes ? If he knew about the crash, he'd have the information prepared.

Originally Posted by NBC001
Ben didn't know the whole story. He didn't know for sure who arrived on the Island in 2004 from 815 or the freighter. He might have been looking for different names.
Juliet didn't come on 815 or the freighter and who knows what name she last name she was using in 1977.
Jack, Kate and Hurley used their real last names when in 1977.
Sawyer was using LaFleur in 1977.
What was Jin's last name in 1977?
We haven't heard what last name Sayid is using in 1977 either.
Neither Miles nor Daniel were on the flight and what last names were they using?
Ben never met Charlotte in 1977.

That's what I think too, NBC. Ben didn't know exactly how the Losties arrived on the Island, I doubt any of them would have told Ben that they arrived by a plane that crashed on the Island in the future year of 2004. So, he sees a plane crash over the Island and sends Goodwin/Ethan to collect names. He gets a list with names he recognizes (Hugo Reyes, Jack Shephard, Kate Austen, Jin Kwon, and Sayid Jarrah, now granted he might not know all their last names, but the first names may be enough) and wants to go and see if these are really the same people he met in the 70's. He gets himself caught in a trap so he will be taken to their camp and check them out. While he's there, he also sees James Lafleur, going by Sawyer who's real name he will discover is James Ford.

Because whatever happened, happened is bogus. If you see my above post, if Sawyer can't summon Desmond to the door, what would happen? If it wasn't meant to happen, then what? He could break down the door, run inside and see nothing as that's not meant to happen?

We're watching Season 2 and Desmond is in the Hatch. He's got the music playing. He doesn't answer the door.

We're watching Season 5 and Sawyer knocks on the door at that same moment in time as Desmond is listening to the music. Now the door shouldn't be answered with Sawyer there - Faraday says that himself - because Desmond doesn't recognise Sawyer in season 2.

However, Desmond does open the door and see Faraday.

I can sort of understand this if Desmond is special and able to time travel in a different dimension sort of way but Faraday instigated that event and therefor it should have happened when we were watching Season 2.

Plothole or Faraday being special ?

I think it's a plothole. It's used for it's dramatic quality and gets Desmond in 2007 visiting Hawking.

You assume it's either a plothole (highly unlikely they'd make such a key mistake right after Daniel explained it) or Daniel is special. That may be slightly possible, but only slightly. You also neglect to suggest the third option, that anything can happen, not whatever happened, happened.

Hell that saying is stupid. By that logic you could do anything you choose, then just say well it happened,so it always happened. It's like saying whatever you eat, you ate.

Listen


In 2010 you're given the watch by a time traveler. You keep it. In 2020 you give it to the time traveler to give to you in 2010 to give to him later in life as proof.

The watch always existed. You don't need to get to 2020 first for the watch to exist and to trigger the chain of events.

the example doesn't work as well when you're giving stuff to yourself. it works better with someone else giving you something.
Your point of view - you are in your house in 1979. someone named fred knocks on the door (not you). they tell you that in the year 2009 Barack Obama will be the president and gives you a commemorative plate. you go on about your life for 30 years. when you reach 2009, you find fred and give the plate to him and tell him to take your new time machine and go back to 1979 and give you the plate.
fred's point of view - in 2009 someone gives him a barack obama commemorative plate and tells him to take a time machine to 1979 and give it to his previous self. he goes back in time, knocks on your door, and hands you the plate.
it makes more sense this way because someone was in possession of the plate and gave it to someone instead of there just being a watch that you're giving to yourself without there ever being a point of it being purchased. using that logic, why wouldn't you just go back in time and give yourself a billion dollars?

Desmond didn't recognize Faraday when they met last season because they hadn't met at that point. they did not meet outside the hatch when Desmond was pushing the button pre 815 crash. It wasn't until the Losties were flashing through time that it happened. For whatever reason, the Whatever Happened Happened Rule doesn't apply to Desmond.
I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm fairly sure this is incorrect. Desmond does not have the ability to change the past. Desmond doesn't remember meeting Daniel outside the Swan until 2007 because that is how he is special -- his memories bop around in time. We've seen 2 other times where he's memories from one time are transferred across years into another time. He is miraculously special because that means he can potentially be used as a way to send messages into the future or into the past -- and you don't have to worry about what he did or didn't know at a given time as an indication that it will be impossible to give him a message. No one can change the past or the future.

See people say that Locke sending Richard to see him is proof/ a time loop, not a paradox. but it clearly is.
Locke tells Richard to go see him, so Richard ends up recruiting him to the island, so Locke then gets there and tells Richard to recruit him, etc etc. But who did it first? Locke can't have told Richard to recruit him, else he'd already be there, so he had to be recruited, but if he had to, Locke had to tell Richard.
Except Richard isn't the one who ended up bringing Locke to the island. Abbadon was. Richard had apparently lost interest and only became interested again once Lock showed up with his paralysis cured. So there is no causal loop there.

Yes, but I didn't get the watch until I was given it. Where did it magically appear from? Was it brought in the first time loop, which then changed so it just rotated hands over and over? these things make little sense without more depth/explanation.
Yes, this would be an example of a "closed timelike loop", which is a kind of paradox because any real-world watch must age, for one thing, and must have been built, for another thing. So the compass passed between Locke and Richard cannot be in such a loop. Rather, the worldline of the compass must be something like this: Manufactured in 1970, bought by a DI member in 1980, taken from DI member by Richard in in the purge in 1992, given to Locke by Richard in 2004, timetraveled with Locke, given to Richard by Locke in 1954, used by Richard in Locke's test in 1962, discarded by Richard in 1963.

See my problem with the fact they cant change anything. So either every event is predetermined, or it's bollocks. Say Lefleur is not meant to blow up the entire village, as it still exists in 2004, what would happen? would the explosives just not detonate over and over?
It's not that LaFleur is not "meant" to blow up the entire village, it's that he never chooses to. He could have, but we know that he never chose to, as otherwise it wouldn't still be there in 2004.

You assume it's either a plothole (highly unlikely they'd make such a key mistake right after Daniel explained it) or Daniel is special. That may be slightly possible, but only slightly. You also neglect to suggest the third option, that anything can happen, not whatever happened, happened.

Hell that saying is stupid. By that logic you could do anything you choose, then just say well it happened,so it always happened. It's like saying whatever you eat, you ate.

Not possible. The writers have dealt their hand with the Locke / Alpert storyline.

Except Richard isn't the one who ended up bringing Locke to the island. Abbadon was. Richard had apparently lost interest and only became interested again once Lock showed up with his paralysis cured. So there is no causal loop there.

Well technically it stil applies, as Abandon worked for Widmore, who probably remembered Locke when he stormed into camp that day. Diffferent person, same result.

It's not that LaFleur is not "meant" to blow up the entire village, it's that he never chooses to. He could have, but we know that he never chose to, as otherwise it wouldn't still be there in 2004.True, but by that logic it leaves them to no free thought, He could well choose to, and if he did the future could change. We have no solid evidence that everything they've done so far would have happened anyway.

I'm gessing once the purge occurs we'l know. if everyone dies as original, it can't be changed, but I'm willing to wager that it'l be changed as I doubt they'd let it happen. We'l just have to wait to find out for sure.

Not possible. The writers have dealt their hand with the Locke / Alpert storyline.
Care to elaborate? That seems very vague for n explanation.

the example doesn't work as well when you're giving stuff to yourself. it works better with someone else giving you something.
Your point of view - you are in your house in 1979. someone named fred knocks on the door (not you). they tell you that in the year 2009 Barack Obama will be the president and gives you a commemorative plate. you go on about your life for 30 years. when you reach 2009, you find fred and give the plate to him and tell him to take your new time machine and go back to 1979 and give you the plate.
fred's point of view - in 2009 someone gives him a barack obama commemorative plate and tells him to take a time machine to 1979 and give it to his previous self. he goes back in time, knocks on your door, and hands you the plate.
it makes more sense this way because someone was in possession of the plate and gave it to someone instead of there just being a watch that you're giving to yourself without there ever being a point of it being purchased. using that logic, why wouldn't you just go back in time and give yourself a billion dollars?
Like I was explaining above, that doesn't work. (It's a "closed timelike loop".) For one thing, if you trace the plate back to its origin, to its manufacture, it has none. You got it from Fred, who got it from you, who got it from Fred, ad infinitum. For another thing, every time the plate gets handed to someone, a few molecules are worn off. So when the plate is handed from you to Fred in 2009, then Fred to you, in 1979, then you to Fred in 2009, the Fred to you, in 1979, times 1000 times, the plate no longer looks the same... which is paradoxical, because every 1979 has to be the same.

Rather, the worldline of the compass must be something like this: Manufactured in 1970, bought by a DI member in 1980, taken from DI member by Richard in in the purge in 1992, given to Locke by Richard in 2004, timetraveled with Locke, given to Richard by Locke in 1954, used by Richard in Locke's test in 1962, discarded by Richard in 1963.
.

That's impossible.

i was saying that desmond would have eventually came to the door had sawyer kept knocking on it. it wasn't because faraday is special, it's because he knew what he was doing. sawyer tried to get desmond to answer the door, and faraday quickly told him to stop because it was pointless (even though faraday knew it wasn't). when desmond heard sawyer knocking, he might have been in the shower and maybe he just thought he was hearing things. it wasn't until daniel started knocking that desmond decided to check it out. i am saying that desmond would have answered the door whether it was sawyer, charlotte, daniel, or miles knocking that second time around. daniel specifically told sawyer to give up and made the others leave so that he could keep trying to get desmond out. it's not because daniel is special. he manipulated the others so he could change desmond's past in a very specific way.
he only wanted to change desmond's past slightly. he wanted him to remember to find his mother. if daniel had let sawyer and all the other interact with desmond, it could have seriously altered his past, thus changing future events.
let's say for example sawyer knocked on the door and desmond opened. desmond would have aksed who are all you guys? they would have told them all their names and then the flash would have occurred. the important message of finding daniel's mother would not have been given to him. this is why daniel made the others leave so that he could give desmond one message that would be clear to him. not confuse him with meeting all these new random people. daniel changed desmond's past. someone else will do this in the episodes to come. they would not have shown this if it wasn't important. just like they showed us Jughead, it's going to be important later on.

Care to elaborate? That seems very vague for n explanation.

Whatever happened, happened. You can't change it.

That's the theory they've used in Locke / Alpert and the one they have to stick to unless someone like Desmond alters time. My theory is that the future Losties would disappear - If Desmond alters time so that 815 doesn't crash, the Losties on the island in 1977 would disappear as they'd have had no means of getting there. That or they'd travel back to their homes in 2005 and find them living happily with no knowledge of a plane crash.

It gets confusing, with no real set rules as time travel is impossible and therefor unproven, so TPTB had better be sure about where they're going or many fans will just feel cheated

i'm glad the writers have it all sorted out. i do feel that the rule of whatever happened happened. daniel faraday has been saying this non-stop. if it turns out that he is wrong about this, it would feel like a cheap trick to the fans. you complain about them not having free will, but they still do. you give these outlandish examples of them trying to drive dharma vans off cliffs, but who would really do that just to see if the rules are true? the losties in the 70s aren't trying to fulfill tasks to ensure that the future is the same way they remember. they are going about their lives with free will. it just so happens that what they choose to do leads to the future that we've seen.
i can't wait til they explain how desmond is special. there was definitely something significant about faraday's interaction with desmond outside the swan. whether it's desmond changing the past or his consciousness being able to travel through time like in the constant, it will be pretty sweet. we've seen his consciousness travel back in time to tell faraday important info about eloise, so it's possible that it's happened again.

. i am saying that desmond would have answered the door whether it was sawyer, charlotte, daniel, or miles knocking that second time around.

Again, not possible as it didn't happen because Desmond didn't recognise any of them

Again, not possible as it didn't happen because Desmond didn't recognise any of them
because that event was not implanted to his subconscious until that exact moment that he awoke in bed with penny. he would not have recognized any of them.
it's similar to the fact that in the Constant he goes to Penny and tells her that he'll call her in 8 years. he did that back when he was off the island, but he has no recollection of it until that exact moment while on the freighter.

I think it is technically incorrect when people say that in a single time line theory of time travel that events "always" happened that way.

There is acknowldgement among some posters in this site that TPTB are generally following a single time line theory based partly on the ideas developed by a Russian physicist, Dr. Igor Novikov, and his colleagues. (See this thread for a general discussion of Novikov:
http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=106689 )

Novikov in 1999 wrote an article that IMO explains the general parameters of how (physical) time travel works in the Lost-universe. (I say general because of the apparent Desmond execption). A link to the article is here: http://eas.iap.fr/EAS18/time18/ontime.html and an excerpt is copied below:NOTION OF THE PAST & CAN WE CHANGE IT ?
BY I. NOVIKOV (1999)
THEORETICAL ASTROPHYSICS CENTRE, COPENHAGEN

First of all if somebody use a time machine it means he/she makes a `loop of time'. I wish to attract the readers attention to one totally new factor that arises here. If a `time loop' exists, the events on this loop cannot be separated into future and past. To clarify this statement, let us consider the following example.

Imagine that I walk in a long string of people moving along a straight line. I can definitely say which of them is in front of me and who is behind. If, however, we all follow a circle, I can say `ahead of me'or `behind me' only about my nearest neighbours but not about the entire line of people. Regarding people further and further ahead of me, I ultimately go around the entire circle and reach myself from behind. This is why people moving on a circle cannot be divided into those `moving in front' and those `walking behind'.

The same is true for the `time loop'. We can say which of the nearest events belong to the future and which to the past. But this division cannot be applied to the time loop as a whole. The loop has no clearly defined future and no past, and all events affect one another on a circle. Briefly and metaphorically speaking, we are under `double' strong influence: without the time machine events are influenced by the flow of data from the past (but not from the future! this is the gist of the causality principle), while events on the loop respond to information coming from both the past and the future.
Therefore, with the time machine, today's events must be consistent with (i.e. be determined by) not only the past but also the future!

I formulated this self-consistency principle many years ago and now it appears to be accepted by everyone who works in the time machine field. Recently I and my colleagues were able to provide that this principle can be deduced from the fundamental laws of physics.

With the time machine becoming a reality, the future starts to affect the past. All events occur in such a way that this influence is taken into account. However, once an event has taken place (it was influenced by the events both in the past and in the future), that's the end, it cannot be altered. `What has really happened cannot be undone'.

So, as the Novikov article explains, without time travel the present is only influenced by the past, i.e., classic causality, but once TT is introduced the present reality is influenced by both the past and the future via a time loop. So there technically is a "first" time a time traveler goes back to the past, but once it occurs, the present reality on the time line is altered such that the past/present/future become indistinguishable. So when Daniel says "what has happened, happened," in Lost-speak it means that the "current" reality is influenced by what already had happened in the past as well as the time travel from the future--but once the future affects the past, it cannot be changed.

So, for example, in the LaFleur episode, if Sawyer, Juliet, Jin, etc., had never traveled back to to 1974, then the current reality would be influenced only by the past and Amy would have been shot and would never have given birth to her son with Horace. But by traveling back to 1974 and preventing her death, Sawyer from the future affected the past and thus created a time loop permanently altering the past/present/future such that it is now the reality that has happened. This is also true, for instance, regarding the 1977 DI picture with the Hurely, Jack, Kate, and the other Losties. . . That picture didn't exist until the Losties where flashed back in time when aboard flight 316, but once that happened, it became the "new" reality that happened due to the loop of time.

Also, in the same Novikov article, the question of "free will" and time travel is addressed; it appears that free will is possible as long as it does not create a time paradox:Still, how about the assassination of the grandparents? Could this extravagant crime be committed using the time machine? The answer is a categorically NO. The American physicist Kip Thorne puts it this way:
`` ...something has to stay your hand as you try to kill your grandmother. What? How? The answer (if there is one) is far from obvious, since it entails the free will of human beings. The compatibility between free will and physical law is a terribly muddy issue even in the absence of time machines."
As for the constraints of “free will”, the reader should notice that even without a time machine, ANY LAW OF PHYSICS places limits on “free will”. Say, I might wish to walk on the ceiling (without special equipment): my “free will” prompts me to. This, however, is forbidden. The law of universal gravitation limits my “free will” and there is nothing I can do about it.
In the presence of the time machine the constraints on `free will' are, of course, somewhat different, but they are not, in principle, anything extraordinary in the physics of our time.

If Ben knew what was going to happen, why does he order the death of Jin ? Why the huge effort at the end of season 3 to stop the Losties ?

Do you mean why did Ben order Tom & the other guy to "Kill Kwon" in the Season 3 finale? The answer is, he didn't.

It's clear from the scene where Tom goes on about wasting bullets in the sand - Tom wanted to kill all three of them and Ben has clearly previously told them not to do so under any circumstances. It's a bluff to get Jack to back down, and it doesn't work. It bothered me at the time - it just seemed a bit hokey.

Now it makes blinding sense. Ben couldn't risk Jin, Sayid or Bernard (who presumably has time-jumped with everyone else too and is probably firmly ensconced as a Dharma dentist) being killed because he knew them as a child. He knows they're already part of events, and that those events hadn't yet happened in the Losties' timeline.

The reason Ben tried to stop people from leaving the island was precisely because he knew they were supposed to jump back to the seventies. He didn't know they would leave the island and then come back. Indeed, he's gone to great trouble to get them back.

And whether the writers knew they would use this storyline when Ben is introduced in Season 2, who knows? I doubt it. But I'd say it's absolutely 100% certain they knew about it in the Season 3 finale. That's when they introduce the "We have to go back" storyline after all. It has to be vague because they never know which actors are going to drop out for whatever reason, but it's clear from that point on that they had a plan, and we're still seeing it play out.

Re "whatever happened, happened" and "course correction" - who told us that? Ms Hawking (who clearly has motives we don't fully understand) and Faraday (who may well be mistaken). That's characters saying this, not the writers. It looks to me like a bunch of characters are trying to make sure that "whatever happened, happened" by manipulating the O6 back into positions they "should" be in, in order to preserve the timeline.

And if they're making such an effort, then it's obvious they think there is an alternative timeline in which things don't happen that way. So it's possible that the timeline will change. But this is still perfectly consistent with Ben knowing the relevant Losties as a young boy.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm fairly sure this is incorrect. Desmond does not have the ability to change the past. Desmond doesn't remember meeting Daniel outside the Swan until 2007 because that is how he is special -- his memories bop around in time. We've seen 2 other times where he's memories from one time are transferred across years into another time. He is miraculously special because that means he can potentially be used as a way to send messages into the future or into the past -- and you don't have to worry about what he did or didn't know at a given time as an indication that it will be impossible to give him a message. No one can change the past or the future.

This may be the scope of Desmond's ability. But he was able to stave off Charlie's death on several occasions. It would seem that he was able to actually take action that opposed fate in those instances. But I suppose we don't know that for certain. Maybe it just seems like that's what they meant by all the "never supposed to leave" talk re: the O6.

Back to Ben knowing all along:

I've missed some pages in this thread has anybody mentioned the dialog between Lapidus and Ben on the plane right after they crash:

LAPIDUS: Where's everyone else? Jack? Kate? Hurley? Where'd they go?

BEN: (from behind) They're gone.

LAPIDUS: (turning) Gone? Gone where?

BEN: How would I know?

Ben's "How would I know" seems more like classic Ben, skirting the question rather than revealing what he actually knows. And of course, we already know the answer to Lapidus' question but we get the answer to Ben's question by the end of the episode.