Ok, for some time it has been bothering me that Jack has used Locke's mantra, "Don't tell me what I can't do."* It also bothered me that Boone used Rose's line "I'm letting you off the hook."* Then there's the fact that Jack told Kate "everybody gets a new life on the island," and Locke said the same to Shannon.* Then, I got to thinking about White Rabbit.* When Locke is going out to look for water, Jack wants to go too.* Locke, however, tells Jack he needs to stay and finish what he started.* A leader has to know where he is going in order to lead.* In the end it is Jack who finds the water.* Same thing happened when they were looking for Charlie and Claire.* Locke wanted Jack to go back and be the doctor and let him be the tracker.* In the end it was Jack who found Charlie.* I guess what I'm getting at is, isn't this just a figurative mirror image?*

There have been an awful lot of references to mirror images within the context of the show.* There was Kate finding the pilot's wings and seeing the reflection of his body in the water.* There is, of course the song, La Mer which refers to silver reflections and changing reflections.* There is, of course, the reference to Alice in Wonderland/ Through the Looking Glass by way of White Rabbit.* I'm not sure if this is a spoiler so just to be on the safe side:

We know that one of the writers described the monster as a kind of reflection of yourself.


I have read in other threads that Ursa Major appeared to be the mirror image of itself in one episode.* I've read things about Jack's moving tatoo.* Wasn't there also something about the scar under Locke's eye appearing on one side of his face and then the other?* * It just seems to me we've been hit over the head with mirror image references, and those are just the literal ones.

Edited:* Oops.* Thanks Kato.
Edited: Just wanted to give Sam Grant credit for pointing out some of the mirror images in that last paragraph.

(Just so you know, your spoiler tag doesn't seem to be working.)

Very interesting subject, Shootfire, it's great how you remembered and wove all those together -- even the mirror-image of the wings, I never would have thought of that.* I don't have a clue in hell what it all means, but what a cool observation.*

*resists the urge to grab a mirror and go through all the screencaps*

Well, I'm going somewhere with these thoughts. I just haven't got a clear enough idea of what I want to say yet. It has to do with the properties of light and reflection. You know, color is visible only because of light. The object doesn't hold the color. The light does, it has all the colors of the visible spectrum. It is because of the ability of an object to absorb light of specific frequencies and reflect others that make things appear to be a certain color. So.....when something absorbs or reflects light, it alters our perception of it. If an object reflects all light, then it appears white. The absence of light appears black to us. That brings us back to black and white. I know it sounds crazy, but I think an idea is beginning to form.

I like it.* I'm interested to see where you go with this.*

JOHN LOCKE:* Two players. Two sides. (He picks up two game pieces and holds one piece in each hand, showing it to Walt.* In his left hand, he holds up a white piece; in his right, a black piece.)* One is light; one is dark.

And thinking about it... wouldn't most people say "one is black and one is white"?* Deliberate word choice there?

And thinking about it... wouldn't most people say "one is black and one is white"?

Sure thing.
I think this is a hint about things to come placed here by the writers, they've already done the same along most episodes.
For example, in DEM :
Frainey (the PI) : Here's the thing. Your mother sought you out, so she's fair game. But this guy - maybe he doesn't even know you exist. I've done this enough times to know this stuff isn't meant to be, even though it may feel that way. But this probably won't have a happy ending. So, do you want it, or not?

And I think there's a message behind Locke's comment on backgammon : you can't play the game if there's only one side.
It's interesting to see how the Dark and Light references are used, even when you compare the flashback picture and the present time picture.
The flashback picture is brighter or darker than the present time picture according to whose flashback it is (Sawyer's are very dark, while Claire's are bright)

But there is more, and this where your observations shootfire are amazingly thought provoking.
Sometimes in the flashbacks, the picture is hued by a dominant color.
For example, when Locke is playing the war game in Walkabout, the dominant hue is green, which, according to the link below means "Life and Renewal".

http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/colorselection/p/green.htm

Green is life. Abundant in nature, green signifies growth, renewal, health, and environment. On the flip side, green is jealousy or envy (green-eyed monster) and inexperience.

I think this is pretty relevant regarding Locke.
(more about color meanings here : http://desktoppub.about.com/cs/color/a/symbolism.htm)

So, yes shootfire, I think you're definitely catching something with the spectrum, color meanings, mirror reflections, and the interaction of all of this with the characters and/or the events.

Now, a little riddle :
I'm made of glass, I look like a tiny pyramid, and I'm used for separating the beams of light, who am I ? ;)

Miss Prism from The Importance of Being Earnest? :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

Miss Prism from The Importance of Being Earnest? :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:


.....and shootfire wins a.....toaster ! :laugh:

Prism, what a symbol. A whole bunch of references and influences stands within it.
Makes me think about another director who uses color meanings and "plot warning lines" in his movies : Shyamalan.
( "Some of them don't even know they're dead" - The Sixth Sense)

and how about this thought, ill post you what i posted a the spoiler theories section, its a theory of mine-

what if the hullicination with Shannon being dead was a reversal foreshadow of Boone's death?

Think about it...when Boone found Shannon "dead" he was by her side, and crying, but he was holding her, when Boone died, Shannon was by his side, crying as well, it was like sort of the Shannon hullucination, only opposite, Boone's injuries on his chest looked similiar to Shannons in the hullucination

But the real question is....is Shannon "relieved"? Shares sympathy like Boone did in the hullucination, but really is...relieved? Like Boone was relieved when Shannon died

maybe Shannons comment to sayid "everyone gets a new life on this island" it could of been a foreshadow to her NEW LIFE with Sayid, without Boone, her NEW LIFE without boone.

Think about it if you compare Shannons reaction to Boones death, to Boone's reaction to Shannons "death", its quite similiar, the only difference is that shannon didnt hold boone in her arms, while as Boone held shannon his arms, but he was by her side crying, she was by his side crying.

Shannon shares sympathy that Boone is dead, sad that hes dead, but shes feeling relieved because she gets to start her NEW LIFE with Sayid without him, just like Boone showed sympathy and was upset that she was dead, but he felt relieved because he let go of his crush towards her, and let go of his "always having to tell shannon everything" thing, he let go of the depending on shannon thing, he was relieved that he didnt have to deal with her..ect

Maybe the hullucination that Locke caused was a reversal hullucination foreshadow

What do you guys think

Writers love to have recurring motifs, images, references, and so on. I think you guys are just doing a very interesting job of locating them. The existence of a recurring motif does NOT necessarily indicate a future plot event. In some cases, it may not even be 100% a conscious decision. At least, it may be a collaborative creation by different writers and directors and prop department people, not all of whom are planning their efforts together in advance.

Example: Xander's heart of darkness and heart ripped out in Buffy. It was a powerful recurring theme, but it was never truly a plot point, at least by the standards of a universe in which hearts DID literally get ripped out fairly frequently.

That's really interesting LostFanForever. Since Jack told the famous "don't tell me..." I keep seeing him and Locke as reflections of each other.
Not like identical twins but more like the characters in Stephen King's "The Dark Half".

Writers love to have recurring motifs, images, references, and so on. I think you guys are just doing a very interesting job of locating them. The existence of a recurring motif does NOT necessarily indicate a future plot event. In some cases, it may not even be 100% a conscious decision.

I agree, not always a future plot event, but rather a part of the show's "language". These writers are surely absorbed by their own creation, it might influence them back unconsciously and things like that must come naturally. Of course, we also sometimes might just see what we want to see.

And from one angle anyway, a prism looks like a pyramid. *Great theories, Crashover and Lostfanforever! *(As an aside, ever play the game Mystery of Time and Space?)

Cam, I agree that's true enough -- whether it applies to this show, though, who can know this early? *It could well be coincidence, or it could be deliberate and mean nothing, or it could be like the wheelchair they pushed around and Locke's mentioning the guy who climbed Everest -- sometimes things do add up on this show. *When they changed the repeated number from 16 to 815 I thought "ok, now they're just messing with our heads," and then BOOM -- Numbers.

I think there are so many repeated motifs that they can't ALL be literal plot points.

But that's not an argument against any ONE motif being a literal foreshadowing or plot hook.

thanks guys! Im glad you like the theory! Horray! Im dead on about something *celebrates* it makes total perfect sense!!! Ive been constantly watching..the hullucination..then boones death, and i still come up with the same answers of being a reversal hullucination foreshadow, YAY! Im glad you guys like it

I had a weird thought tjust now hat the characters were switching roles in eachother, sort of to go with Jack's "dont tell me what I cant do" and Boone's "im letting you off the hook" comments, their personalities were going down the line in each one, like Jack gets Locke's characteristic and personality, Boone gathered Rose's characteristics and personality

Would be interesting if it was reversed, and Jack became the HUNTER, and Locke became the doctor, only that Locke would be the HUNTED

lol this makes no sense..i know..but i thought it was interesting..LOL

BUT BACK to my reversal theory with shannon and boone, could it also of been Boone seeing his future in the Shannon hullucination, rather than it being her..it was him laying there...and when Boone died, Shannon saw the past? Her dead in Boone's hullucination....okay that probably makes no sense either

OKAY im sticking with my theory about the reversal foreshadow of the hullucination and death which makese absoulute PERFECT SENSE! horray for me for thinking it up

Crash, I love toaster strudel!

Yes, I am definitely interested in what is behind the color effects.

Lostfan, I am a fan of your thread. *I think I may even have posted in it.

Cam, the color and reflection references may or may not be an important plot device, but we won't know if we don't explore it, will we? *I agree that the writing is a collaborative effort, but there are certainly points that the writers know they have to hit without giving away the mystery. *I don't know if this will end up being important, but I defintely think we're being hit over the head with it enough to say we are meant to think about it. *At the very least, I think , like you say, it's interesting.

I keep coming back to what I believe are *figurative mirror images, also. *We form opinions about characters based upon what we see. *We have one idea about them, and then a little more "light" is shed on them, and we find our opinions reversed. *We thought that Michael was a deadbeat dad, then we found out that he was robbed of his chance at fatherhood. *We thought Jin was likely a killer, then we found out that he was actually saving the life of the man he was meant to kill. *We thought Jack was a confident professional, until we learned the Jack was plagued by self-doubts planted by his father. *We thought that Sun was weak and subservient, only to learn she had plans to strike out on her own. *

It is a matter of point of view, when light is shed on a character from a different point of view, like the character's own point of view, we have a different/reversed impression. *Of course, a mirror image is not an exact duplicate of an image, it is a reversal. *Cam, maybe you can help keep me clear on the terminology? *What we get from a mirror is a virtual image? *Are our images of the characters still skewed after an entire season? *With each character-centric episode we get another piece of the puzzle, but with each piece of the puzzle we find that we are reversing our opinion of the character. *I don't know about anyone else, but I keep finding my perceptions of Locke switching from one polar opposite to the other. *

Gosh, it took me so long to compose this post (interruptions) there are like 4 new ones. :o


Kato! *It's all done with mirrors! *I just remembered that! *:lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

I think there are so many repeated motifs that they can't ALL be literal plot points.

But that's not an argument against any ONE motif being a literal foreshadowing or plot hook.

I agree. *They can't all be plot points -- but one of them might be. *That's both the fun and the anguish of this show. *Which one? * :laugh:

Locke [the hunter] would be the HUNTED

Oh, true!*

Other mirrors... Sawyer the con man was conned, Sayid the torturer was tortured, Hurley was relieved that a crazy woman also thought the numbers were cursed which meant that he wasn't crazy... *once you start thinking about it, they're all over the place.*

(And I preview again, and there's a new post again.)* *:laugh:* I'm going to post this and mull yours over Shootfire.* And yep, I've had that "it's all done with mirrors" on there from the beginning, so you can see why this theory is so fascinating to me!* *:)

This is a little off topic, but....did anyone ever figure out what the "Kato" nickname Sawyer used was all about? It may just be good for a giggle, but....what if it was a nod from the writers that it is all done with mirrors??? :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

*braces self for inevitable crazy comments*

I did post in the Jin thread that I was a big fan of his.* If I were just slightly more delusional I'd consider it a shoutout.* *:laugh:* But I'm sure it's just some kind of Asian stereotype, given that Sawyer said it.

I'm trying to find any relationship between colors and numbering systems, but aside from HTML code -- which doesn't fit -- I'm drawing a blank there.* So I'm moving on to mirrors now.

I've just thought about Sawyer and his glasses, what a nice allegory don't you think ?
All his speeches about "seeing the big picture", and he's the one who needs glasses, how ironic.
In this ep (DEM), he's just learning to see what is really surrounding him, and begins to show himself kind, attentive, concerned, and maybe weak.
And from our POV we now see him differently, from the other side of his pair of glasses.

Curiously, this makes me think about David Carradine's speech in Kill Bill #2, speaking about the singularity of Superman :

An essential characteristic of the superhero mythology is, there's the superhero, and there's the alter ego. Batman is actually Bruce Wayne, Spider-Man is actually Peter Parker. When he wakes up in the morning, he's Peter Parker. He has to put on a costume to become Spider-Man. And it is in that characteristic that Superman stands alone. Superman did not become Superman, Superman was born Superman. When Superman wakes up in the morning, he's Superman. His alter ego is Clark Kent. His outfit with the big red "S", that's the blanket he was wrapped in as a baby when the Kents found him. Those are his clothes. What Kent wears, the glasses, the business suit, that's the costume. That's the costume Superman wears to blend in with us. Clark Kent is how Superman views us. And what are the characteristics of Clark Kent? He's weak, he's unsure of himself... he's a coward. Clark Kent is Superman's critique on the whole human race.

It's interesting to see how an external element can either reveal yourself as who you truly are, or disfigure yourself, just like those straight mirrors and curved mirrors that makes you thin or large.

This is a little off topic, but....did anyone ever figure out what the "Kato" nickname Sawyer used was all about? It may just be good for a giggle, but....what if it was a nod from the writers that it is all done with mirrors???

I don't remember when he used this nickname, but wasn't it the name of the guy in The Green Hornet ?

It was, Crashover.* And, interesting perspective there on Superman's costume!*

It's interesting to see how an external element can either reveal yourself as who you truly are, or disfigure yourself, just like those straight mirrors and curved mirrors that makes you thin or large.

Very true, and a great point* -- which goes along with Shootfire's observation of how our perception of the characters changes with each backstory.

I came across this and thought I'd throw it into the mix for whatever use it might be to someone else.* But these people don't seem to see the same number as the same color, so far as I can tell.*

Evidence of cross-activation in brain regions of people who see letters and numbers in colors

http://www.news-medical.net/print_article.asp?id=8678

This is great! *I just love all the ideas people are posting. *Crash, you have posted so many good thoughts, I'm having trouble keeping up to speed. *The superhero/alter-ego points are certainly creating some resonance for me. *I have thought all along that none of the characters were all good or all evil. *That's why I didn't really take the dark and light references as pertaining to good and evil, although I have seen some good cases made for it.

Kato, I don't know about colors and numbering systems, but I do know that light waves are emitted at certain frequencies according to color. *I would think the corresponding frequencies for color would be too high to fit the "numbers" into, but I'm not a number person. *Maybe that is something worth exploring? *I dunno.

AND, thanks for not calling me crazy! :lol2:

If I called you crazy I'd have to call myself crazy too, since we're often on the same page Shootfire.* *:lol2:

We have numbers on the side of the hatch and a light emitting from inside, so ........ nope, I got nothin'* -- back to Google.* *:laugh:

Hey, I love these theories...here's another one.

All Sawyer's actions were selfish and concerned with never revealing any weakness, until Kate got him to admit his headaches to Jack. Just as he feared, Jack used his weakness against him with the crack about STD's. But then, Jack and Sayid and the others all pitched in to find him a pair of glasses. An admission of weakness which he thought would hurt him showed him that the others care for him. Now, as you point out he can see.


About Locke's dream and the idea of mirror images, it seemed to me that Boone looked one way while Locke's mother pointed another. Is this a mirror image moment? She (mother) betrayed him, Boone (son) trusted him. The betrayed becomes the betrayer?

Just to let you know, not really relevant here but interesting though.

Strings appearing in the spectrum of light indicate the presence of chemical elements.
For example, the observation of the spectrum of the Sun light through a microscope reveals concentrations of dark strings among some of the colors of the spectrum.
Depending on where they are placed in the spectrum, these strings have revealed the presence of Helium and Hydrogen into the Sun, but also Sodium and other elements, which wasn't known until these observations were made.
This is how we know about what the stars are made of, which elements compose them, by observing the spectrum of the light they send.
And this also why we still don't know what the black holes are made of.

About Locke's dream and the idea of mirror images, it seemed to me that Boone looked one way while Locke's mother pointed another. Is this a mirror image moment? She (mother) betrayed him, Boone (son) trusted him. The betrayed becomes the betrayer?

This is something that bothers me since I watched it, why his mother was in his dream ?
I can see the "foreshadow" with Boone's bleeding face and Locke in his wheelchair, but what's the deal with his mother in this dream ?
What was she telling ? What was she pointing at ? What was Boone looking at ?

Kato, good catch with the numbers and the light from the hatch. Maybe there's nothing here, but it's interesting to see how this kind of "illumination" is used at this very moment and this very place.

Heck, call me crazy too ! :party:

Here's something far-fetched.* Nevertheless, I thought it was very interesting. I really like the way it tied the eyes and point of view into everything.

http://www.hitl.washington.edu/publications/r-98-21/r-98-21.pdf

Right now, I'm trying to find some information about the relationship between the virtual image of a plane mirror and virtual reality.* I may be going off on a tangent, it was just something that kind of caught my fancy.

Are you assuming there's some kind of virtual reality involved in the show ?
That would be interesting, but I would be a little disappointed.
I really expect some rock hard scientific explanations for the strange events, but virtual reality would be a miserable way to explain them, IMO.
Besides, it would imply some sort of conspiracy theory which I'm not really fond of.

Are you assuming there's some kind of virtual reality involved in the show ?


Absolutely not! I just don't want to leave an avenue unexplored.

Besides, it would imply some sort of conspiracy theory which I'm not really fond of.


I'm not really fond of conspiracy theories either. It's just that sometimes one idea builds on another and I'm just exploring.

That's ok, you're right to explore these ideas and keep an open mind.
I didn't mean to be offensive, sorry. ;)

No offense was taken Crash.* I guess I just wasn't clear enough that I thought it was far-fetched.

Just trying to take into account that obviously people have visited this island in the past., recently enought to find man-made objects and such. I really hope there is a "natural science" explanation for everything. Still, who knows? ;)

Are you assuming there's some kind of virtual reality involved in the show ?

I certainly wouldn't rule it out -- not as an explanation for everything that's happened, but as a possible element of one of the mysteries. *Take Jack's dad... if that wasn't a hallucination or a ghost, what was it? *Jack's dad brought to life by the island? *Too out there. *Jack's dad's image somehow recreated to appear real, even up close? *I like that better than the Zombie Theory. *(No offense intended to Zombie Theorists, it's just a personal preference.) * *

I don't mind conspiracy theories, so long as they aren't cliches. * Like... scamming Locke out of his kidney was a conspiracy... or a con, or a conspiracy to con.

(And as a lame attempt to drag this back on topic after hauling it off into another direction entirely... have we ever seen a mirror on the island?)

Posting to track topic this was very interesting! I hadn't thought about the "light and dark" line before

(And as a lame attempt to drag this back on topic after hauling it off into another direction entirely... have we ever seen a mirror on the island?)

Yes, during the last ep when Jack was shaving, but I think this was the first time.

Well, after all, why not ? The world depicted in The Matrix isn't flat out impossible. And a whole bunch of philosophers and scientists have seriously considered it.
I don't really rule it out, I'm just saying I expect a less easy explanation, but maybe I shouldn't.
You made a good point with Jack's father. It's either an hallucination or a virtual image, which is quite the same.
Finally I begin to like this idea.

have we ever seen a mirror on the island?

I recall seeing Jack shaving in a mirror in the last epi. *I also recall seeing Locke shaving. *I think the mirror was only suggested, though, I didn't actually see it. Aww. Crash beat me to it again. ;)

There again, thinking of La Mer and Kate's puddle, calm water acts like a mirror when viewed without polarization. *I suppose it could be said that the island is surrounded by a huge mirror, possibly the largest mirror in the world? *Another interesting point about water, droplets of water have an effect on light that is similar to a prism.

And I have always wondered if the writers just goofed or if it was a clue that Jack's hallucination appeared behind him at one point... waiting for him to turn around.

And if someone or something can create an image that realistic, can they (or have they) created others on the island?*

Aww thanks shootfire good to hear your a fan of that thread! hehehe!

Thanks again for the good comments about the theory, and you guys got some brilliant thoughts as well

I am really loving this topic!

Okay..now lets see...the mirror that Jack had in Dues Ex Machina, could that just be a pointless thing put in..OR could it actually mean something...hmm

I cant stop going back to the past and future with boone and shannon as well, I keep getting this thought that perhaps Boone was looking at the future of himself on the island in his hullucination when he found Shannon, rather than seeing Shannon...seeing himself dead, but we as viewers dont see it, we are tricked by the image of Shannon, but in Boone's mind, he sees himself, and then Shannon seeing Boone dead, is a past vision of her seeing herself dead in Boone's hullucination, maybe thats why her breaking down into tears was taking longer, she kept looking at him, turning her head, maybe she was seeing herself in the PAST vision of herself being dead in Boone's hullucination

LOL okay that may be a bit off..but its interesting, and it wont seem to leave my head!

There's also all the graphic references to the eyes, especially in the opening shots of some of the episodes.
Don't we say "The eyes are the mirror of the soul ?"

Locke : I've looked into the eye of this Island, and what I saw.....was beautiful.

Very interesting....so WHOS soul is he looking into? the islands?

I don't know if this ties into your theory, but I'm a list collector and I thought I'd post it anyway.

List of (literal) mirrors:
On the island: Locke looking into a mirror shaving in HOTRS, Jack looking into a mirror shaving (DEM)
On the plane in flashback: Charlie looks at himself in the bathroom mirror as he's doing drugs.
In a flashback prior to the flight:
Tabula Rasa: Ray looks in the rear view mirror of the truck and sees the Marshal approaching.
HOTRS and IT: The bathroom scene where Sun finds Jin washing blood off his hands.
Homecomming: Charlie and Lucy looking into a mirror as Charlie is getting ready to start his sales job.
DEM: Locke hits the rear view mirror in his car as he is leaving Cooper's house after his surgery.
DNH: Jack and Mark Silverman look into a mirror in the tux shop.

I haven't gone back to check all episodes, these are just ones I remembered and I had the last few on tape.
Interesting that on the island Jack and Locke have both looked into mirrors and both for the same purpose. (Although there is no profound implication at the time, they aren't doing it in a moment of soul searching for example.)

Enjoy!

Very interesting....so WHOS soul is he looking into? the islands?

I would think that, if it's a reflection he is seeing, that it would be his own soul. *However, a mirror image would be a reversal of the truth, wouldn't it? *He may be seeing something that is beautiful, but in reality it is not.

There's also all the graphic references to the eyes, especially in the opening shots of some of the episodes.


That's kind of what I was thinking, Crash. *Good point about looking into the eye of the island.

On the island: Locke looking into a mirror shaving in HOTRS, Jack looking into a mirror shaving (DEM)


I think it's pretty interesting that the only lostaways we see looking into mirrors on the island just happen to be Jack and Locke.

Here's a comment from Terry O'Quinn himself :

Q : Do you think there is significance in the names of some of the characters? (examples John Locke shares his name with the philosopher, Shepard can be referenced to the shepherd leading a herd, etc)
A : I think the creators of the show thought about every single aspect very carefully. Jack (John) Shepard?
Of course, some things happen by coincidence...........don't they?

It seems they both share the same first name...

Another funny reference that might be relevant :
"Mirror, Mirror, on the wall, now, who is the fairest of us all?"
Don't we all know a mirror always tell the truth ?

Don't we all know a mirror always tell the truth ?

Here's something that may interest you. I found it, incidentally, on a site that explores virtual images. http://www.riverdeep.net/current/2000/04/front.180400.mirrors.jhtml

Who's the Fairest One of All
Nature provides mirrors in the form of smooth water surfaces. Consider this story from Greek mythology:

Narcissus, tired from hunting and the heat, lies down. He stoops to quench his thirst in the glassy spring. While drinking he beholds himself reflected in the mirrored pool--and a new thirst appears: he loves an imagined body which contains no substance, for he believes the mirrored image a thing of life to love...

Oh, how he kisses the deceitful fount and thrusts his arms to catch the neck that's pictured in the middle of the stream! Yet never may he hold his arms around that image of himself. ..Avert your gaze and you will lose your love, for this that holds your eyes is nothing save the image of yourself reflected back to you. It comes and waits with you; it has no life; it will depart if you will only go. (adapted from Metamorphoses, by Ovid)

How can you explain to Narcissus that his love must remain unrequited?


What contribution did Narcissus make to the English language?

Of course ! How could I have missed the very first historical reference to mirrors !
But, tell me, how do you think narcissism is involved in the show ?

Well, Crash, I have heard more than one person arguing that Locke's teaching of the other lostaways was a clear example of narcissism.* The idea that someone who's life hasn't been going very well up to now, suddenly is so wise that he can help fix the flaws in everyone else's character, seemed to back up their claims.* Of course, I don't have a hard and fast opinion of Locke, but I do get the point of those arguments.* Sure, he thinks he is doing what is best for everyone, but who is he to determine what is right for everyone without their input?* When you think about it, wasn't it kind of his idea not to clue everyone in on some of the mysteries of the island?* Wasn't he the one who wanted to keep the hatch a secret?* Wasn't he the one who decided that Boone needed to have a vision quest?* Anyway, that was the way I took those arguments, and they do seem to make a lot of sense.

Edited: Remember also that Jack is a doctor. Wouldn't having a God-complex, not saying he does but, if he did, wouldn't that also be narcissism? What makes him think that just because Locke didn't tell him the whole truth about the accident, that that is why Boone died? Maybe Jack couldn't have saved him anyway, but he can't see that.

Has anyone explored the link I posted earlier? Under the section labeled, It's All Done With Mirrors, there is an experiment. My kingdom for two portable mirrors!!! I want to do that! I wonder if that is what is meant by the line in La Mer about blue infinity?

I read it, and I'd like to try that out too.* Blue infinity, reflections, prisms, mirrors, colors, light... something in there.*

Locke : And if I came to you and said the same thing, then what would your explanation be, as a doctor.

Jack : I'd call it a hallucination. A result of dehydration, post traumatic stress, not getting more than 2 hours of sleep a night for the past week. All of the above.

Locke : All right, then. You're hallucinating. But what if you're not?

Jack : Then we're all in a lot of trouble.

WE're all in a lot of trouble ?

I think you're right, this is another characteristic they share, narcissism.
But while Locke reaches achievement, Jack keeps failing.
And the other Lostaways are somehow touched by each one's struggle, wether it brings to them benefit or loss.
There's a term for it in the economic lingo : externalities.
It represents the unintended consequences of a transaction between two parties on a third.
In this case, I prefer this term to "collateral damages", because the consequences aren't necessary bad.

Has anyone explored the link I posted earlier? Under the section labeled, It's All Done With Mirrors, there is an experiment. My kingdom for two portable mirrors!!! I want to do that! I wonder if that is what is meant by the line in La Mer about blue infinity?

I took a look at it, but couldn't find myself a portable mirror neither. However, it's interesting to see how this virtual image is close to a mirage : you can see it, but never catch it.
About La Mer, well, since I'm French, I can help you on this one. Do you read French ?

La mer
Au ciel d'été confond
Ses blancs moutons
Avec les anges si purs
La mer bergère d'azur
Infinie

Basically, it means : The sea and the summer sky mix white sheeps and pure angels, The sea, blue shepherdess, is infinite.

It's about the reflection of the white clouds on the sea which evoke white pure angels.

About La Mer, well, since I'm French, I can help you on this one. Do you read French ?

No, Crash, I don't read French. I'm certainly glad you do. Now we have another reflection reference relating to the sea, a natural mirror.


However, it's interesting to see how this virtual image is close to a mirage : you can see it, but never catch it.


Yes, the image of yourself that you see but cannot obtain?

Yes, the image of yourself that you see but cannot obtain?

Or hide ?

Or hide ?

I think it works equally well with either interpretation. Good point.

Well, I've just come back from visiting the lists thread, and it seems there are more mirrors on the island.* Isabellove mentions that the DW has a signal mirror in her dive bag.* Now, I remember reading that too.* It seems we can also add to Ducky's list that Sun was looking at herself in her wedding dress in the mirror.* Interesting that so many people were captured looking into mirrors prior to the crash.

Now, I'm going to have to go back and watch special again and see if I can catch Michael or Walt looking in a mirror.

This is a little off topic, but....did anyone ever figure out what the "Kato" nickname Sawyer used was all about?* It may just be good for a giggle, but....what if it was a nod from the writers that it is all done with mirrors??? :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

*braces self for inevitable crazy comments*


kato was Bruce Lee's character in the Green Hornet

Thanks Bears, I'll probably sleep better tonight. :laugh:

Two plane mirrors set parallel to one another will generate an infinite number of virtual images, but you would not be able to see them because of a point of view problem would you? That's what I'm pondering this morning.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec97/876404187.Ph.r.html (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec97/876404187.Ph.r.html)

Was the mirror mentioned above in Charlie's 'Homecoming' Flashback the same one that was over the table as he ate dinner with Lucy and her dad?

Was the mirror mentioned above in Charlie's 'Homecoming' Flashback the same one that was over the table as he ate dinner with Lucy and her dad?


I don't think it was elfdream, but I don't have this episode to rewatch. I completely missed a mirror over the dining table. Crash? Feel like watching Homecoming? I know you have a lot of epis at your disposal. I plan to watch Special again today to see if I can catch Walt or Michael with a mirror. ;)

Thanks Bears, I'll probably sleep better tonight. :laugh:

Two plane mirrors set parallel to one another will generate an infinite number of virtual images, but you would not be able to see them because of a point of view problem would you? That's what I'm pondering this morning.

http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec97/876404187.Ph.r.html (http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/dec97/876404187.Ph.r.html)




LOL Did you see the date of the email in your link ? Look at the first 3 numbers :D
Don't see where you're going with the facing mirrors, but it looks interesting.

Homecoming : mirror confirmed. ;)

I did the experiment! I had a fairly large round mirror which really added to the tunnel effect. I forgot I had those in a closet. Now, I'm trying to figure out how one might use mirrors to project an augmented reality image. Augmented reality would allow one to project an image superimposed on the natural environment. I have read about how emerging technology would allow you to take a photograph of someone and manipulate it into interacting with you, complete with shadows and all. I know, really weird. ::) I just can't help myself.

Well, I'm going somewhere with these thoughts.* I just haven't got a clear enough idea of what I want to say yet.* It has to do with the properties of light and reflection.* You know, color is visible only because of light.* The object doesn't hold the color.* The light does, it has all the colors of the visible spectrum.* It is because of the ability of an object to absorb light of specific frequencies and reflect others that make things appear to be a certain color.* So.....when something absorbs or reflects light, it alters our perception of it.* If an object reflects all light, then it appears white.* The absence of light appears black to us.* That brings us back to black and white.* I know it sounds crazy, but I think an idea is beginning to form.


Your discussion of color also reminds me of another thread in general theories I think about the color red. The post is about how the color red seems to be used to foreshadow future events. Sorry I don't have the link, but try a search for red.

The meteor issue really stuck out to me in this article, as well as not being able to see the mirror world.

http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20000909/bob10.asp (http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20000909/bob10.asp)

The dark matter thing also struck me as particularly interesting.
In fact, couldn't aberrations in the laws of physics on the island actually explain some of the wonky stuff about the crash?

I went back and checked some screen caps and the mirror over the dining table in Charlie's Homecomming flashback is not the same one as the scene where he is getting ready to go on his sales job, so its an additional mirror, nice catch whoever brought that one up.

There is a scene in IT where Sun is putting on a dress in front of a mirror.

Also I'm told there is a scene somewhere in Con man where Sawyer adjusts his tie in front of a mirror. I can't find a screen cap to confirm it and I don't have it on tape.

That's an interesting link, Shootfire.

Just adding this more mundane thing to all the mirror information:* in addition to the regular reflecting mirrors, there are the kind of mirrors used on buildings sometimes: the ones that look like a mirror from the outside but if look out of them from inside the building you just see through it as if it were plain glass.

And, there are those windows that are coated with something so that you see out of them normally, but from the street they look dark brown/black... although in that case, the effect only works in daylight.* At night if you have a lamp on it'll show from the street.

I spent a lot of time last night looking up illusions done with mirrors, they all seemed to boil down to a variation of this one:

Pepper''s Ghost

http://www.hauntworld.com/Uncle_Timmy_Zombie/peppers2003.html

Remember the comic book? In it is shows a city that is under some sort of dome. Now it's been theorized that our island could be under the very same type of thing, be it electromagnetic or whatever. When I was reading this great thread, that is the first thing I thought of. The dome would be a concaved shape over the island, and concaved shapes produce mirror images, don't they?

So maybe the dome is acting as a spherical mirror and what we are seeing are the results of that.

Great thread. A lot of interesting theories her. I'll just throw a few musings out to see if they stimulate anything.

There has been a lot mentioned here about black/white and light/dark in keeping with the theme of mirrors. We all have a light/dark or good/bad side to our persona's. Could this be telling us that each individual on the Island can both be good or bad at any given moment? Take Jack, his light/good side is healing people and trying to create as save an environment as possible. His dark or bad side is flying off the handle, as shown in his participation in the torture of Sawyer. I think we can see the same thing in most other characters.

When Locke says he has seen the eye of the Island and it is beautiful, could he be referring to the good in everyone that he is trying to bring out. I don't believe that Locke thinks he is actually responsible for the changes that occur in his fellow Lostaways but rather that the Island is giving him insight to help in uncovering the good within them.

As someone mentioned earlier even though Locke perceives the beauty and goodness it could end but being a mirror and end up bad or evil.

It also is begin to seem like there is going to be some type of reversal between the land and the sea.
This could just mean those trying to leave to Island vs. those who are staying. I'm not completely sure at this point.

LBL that's a great addition to this topic!* I knew I was going to see intersting things, glad I found it!* So in essence* *On one side we have "our" lostaways* *and on the other side the "others" lostaways* *that could be the sickness Danielle is talking about* *her crew went to black rock and they came across the Others* *they tried to take their place maybe or something like that and she picked up on it that they were different* *in her mind "sick" so she shot them all.* Oh the mind reels at this thought!* So our dearly departed Boone could have heard a message from the "other" lostaways.* the bad-sick- others.....

ok, reading your thread i kind of went of track with that idea didn't I? Your not saying there's a seperate group but them at one point or another being either good/light or dark/bad. I guess my mind when a bit haywire there with the idea. :laugh:

Even though you took my theory in a different direction, I like your thought that the Other's are a mirror opposite of our Lostaways. HMMM Very Interesting.

I just found this on a different thread and it kind of fits into this* get this: Javi interview
BM: What’s coming up the rest of this season, leading up to the finale?

JG-M: There’s so much going on. They have a raft that they’ve built and they’re going to try to escape from the island. That’s a pretty HUGE deal. What happens with the raft, who goes on it, who gets on, when does it leave, how does it leave? All of that stuff is going to be addressed. We all know that there are other people on the island and we have an insane Frenchwoman running around. We have a hatch that we have to try to open. The island is not without many mysteries, and what’s going to happen by the end of this season is that all of these things are going to come to a confluence. The mysteries we’ve been building throughout the whole first year all come to a head at the end of the season. In these remaining episodes, you’ll get a lot of character-related jeopardy, a lot of answers and more mysteries that are going to come out of those answers. It’s really going to be about bringing every mystery that we’ve set up to a really explosive place at the worst possible time.

I think it’s going to be very interesting, because the characters have not had an easy life on the island, but it’s about to get a lot worse. At the risk of sounding extremely arrogant, I think we have a season finale that’s going to be one for the books. It’s “Best of Both Worlds” good. And if you understand that metaphor, good. Other people need to get an education. [laughs]
well, what do you think???

car88win and lostbylost,

I've had thoughts that have ventured in both directions. *I don't think the one precludes the other. *Who is to say that if there are others that mirror the lostaways, that they are necessarily bad. *They could just be different, like you say car, different enough to appear seem sick to Danielle. *

Whether there are or are not other lostaways, I still think lostbylost is right on the money when she says none of the lostaways are all good or all bad. *They're just people with a dark side, like everyone else. *said with an evil *:laugh:* *I think their good/light sides are more dominant. *It could be that if there are other lostaways, their dark/bad sides are more dominant. *hmmmmm........Now, Walt may be another story all together.... ;)

CAR,

Since we are on a spoiler free general theories board, it may be wise to spoiler font just in case.

sorry i was just so wrapped up in the thought....my bad. :angel:

I have to say in all honesty this is the most interesting topic i think i've read in well since i came here.

OH COOL! Car, thanks for posting that! *That's really interesting. *I didn't get a chance to read it before I hit that post button. *I was distracted. *

Kato,
I have thought about concave and convex mirrors. *It just seems like the mirrors we have seen up to now have been plane mirrors IIRC. *Doesn't mean I won't be exploring them. *I can just imagine some kind of funhouse effect that the lostaways could get "Lost" in at some point. *

Contos,
At some point I read that if you had a mirrored ball and were able to put a light source inside it, the light/heat *would increase with every reflection until it melted or exploded. *If I find it again in my wanderings I'll post a link. *I've read much mirror information in the last day or two, but I hope to come across it again. *Imagine if someone figured out how to harness that kind of energy.

I posted a similar idea on the NERD thread about this last Thursday.


Great post, Luv. I think that would also fit nicely with the radio transmition Boone heard. What if when the plane crashed, everyone was split into two? He might of really been communicating with himself. Thus the "We are the survivors" comment (if you chose to interpret that way, rather than "No survivors"). Maybe they are copies of themselves on a different part of the island.


I wasn't thinking in terms of mirrors when I wrote it, but it does fit together. What if when they crashed something happened and now there are duplicates of themselves in other parts of the island? It also goes with what I posted up thread about the concave mirror effect. If you have ever seen how a concave mirror works the reflection would be directed back to different locations. The parallel beam becomes divergent, so you the relection would be somewhere else on the island.

You can play with that idea here on this site:
http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~phy3054/light/mirror/applets/cavemir/Welcome.html

Also lenses can be used with electromagnetic radition. Still have to research that a little more but it was just touched upon in this link. Doesn't go into detail on how it's used, I'll keep looking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lens_%28optics%29#Spherical_aberration

Contos,

I remember reading your post in the N.E.R.D. thread.* I think yours and Luv's posts have been part of the inspiration for that particular offshoot of the mirror idea.* It's one of the reasons I posted the link about a mirror world.* That's the great thing about this forum.* There are so many interesting ideas that seem to build on one another.* *

Edited to say: I really liked the lense information. It's especially interesting since Sawyer just got glasses! Who knows what he may be seeing soon?

Argh, Kato, I was just rereading your illusion link and realized I had completely missed your point about the different kinds of mirrors. I hate it when I do that. I see what you are saying now. Good information all the way around.

Regarding the spoiler-fonted info....

I hope the season finale Javi mentioned is the Star Trek one. *Is there another by that name? *Man, it's been years and years since I was so excited by a finale. *I think the last one was ST:V and I was really let down by that one. *

I came across that mirror experiment too, Shootfire -- I think I was googling the words: mirror light *(if that helps).

I don't think the characters are all good or bad either, they shift too much for that. *I'm sure that even Rose will turn out to have a dark side.

Some of the characters have unexpected "light" elements that you wouldn't expect in them. *Sawyer the con man tells the truth, *for example -- so far as I can remember anyway. *At least, I can not remember him making a false statement so far (that was proven to be). *Conversely, Sayid the Good Guy initiated the lie about the French transmission (and then griped about having to lie about it later), Good Kate lies like a rug in general, Walt lied by omission, Locke lied deliberately to hide something, (and what was the point of this? *I don't think I had one. *Nope, no mirror analogy involved here. Never mind! * :laugh:)

Anyway, I wish I could wrench something out of all this great information. *Polar opposites (no pun intended) of light and dark, mirror images, light reflection, light refraction, light waves we can't see, sounds we can't hear, positive and negative magnets, all the mirrored elements in the characters, predominant colors in some scenes (red lamps... is the significance light or color?) ... *on the other hand, it will probably be more fun to be surprised, so it might be a good thing that I'm clueless. * :laugh:

P.S.* no problem Shootfire, I often don't have a point, I can see where people might miss it when I do.* *:laugh:

Some of the characters have unexpected "light" elements that you wouldn't expect in them.* Sawyer the con man tells the truth,* for example -- so far as I can remember anyway.* At least, I can not remember him making a false statement so far (that was proven to be)

Hiding in the light.....oh wait....that was X-files wasn't it?* *:lol2

Oops: Forgot Kato is not an X-phile. Sorry. It's kind of a joke about hiding in plain sight. You don't expect someone like Sawyer to tell the truth, so when he does you don't believe him.

* That's the great thing about this forum.* There are so many interesting ideas that seem to build on one another.* *
*


Here, here! Good job on this thread, it's SO interesting.

Problem....I was rewatching Special, but my recording didn't start soon enough. I don't have anything before the scene with Locke teaching Walt to throw knives. What I did get didn't reveal any mirrors that I noticed. If anyone has a few spare minutes and a recording, I would appreciate it if you could check the scene with Michael and Susan at the baby store. It seems like there should be a mirror, maybe part of a toy, that Michael might spot.

Kato,

Here's another kind of illusion that might interest you.

http://www.grand-illusions.com/magicmirror/magmir1.htm

Hiding in the light.....oh wait....that was X-files wasn't it?* *:lol2

Oops:* Forgot Kato is not an X-phile.* Sorry.* It's kind of a joke about hiding in plain sight.* You don't expect someone like Sawyer to tell the truth, so when he does you don't believe him.


Hey, I finally got the Mulder/Scully thing down, now you throw a new one at me. *:laugh: * HIding in plain sight -- right, I get that. *Did you watch Buffy? *I remember a good example of that with the Key. *

One of the mirror illusions was how to make a candle look like it was lit when it wasn't. *And if you stuck your hand in the "flame" it would appear that you really did, when you didn't. *Kind of the reverse of hiding something in plain sight -- something appears to be in plain sight but it doesn't exist.

(And on Preview re the new post -- great, thanks!* Clicking after I post this...)

OH!* I just remembered something.* It gave me a lot of trouble a while back.* Locke and Rose gave Charlie reversed advice.* Locke told Charlie in The Moth that he could help the moth emerge from it's cocoon, but that the struggle was what made the moth strong.* Rose told Charlie he needed to ask for help in dealing with Claire's disappearance and his near-death encounter.

BTW, Crash, just wanted to say that that was a funny observation you made a while back about the link I posted. ;)*

Kato,
I did watch Buffy some.* I'm sorry to say my viewing was sporadic.* I seemed to have trouble finding it for some reason, or maybe it was just trouble getting control of the t.v.* *:laugh:* I remember watching it when Buffy went off to college and it had been a while since I had seen an episode.* I was completely lost.* Actually, I had the same problem with Angel.* I liked what I saw of it though.* I don't have so much trouble getting the t.v. anymore.* I've gotten mean in my old age.

:laugh:

I didn't watch it in the obsessed way I watch Lost, and I probably won't get this explanation exactly right (maybe someone more up on Buffy can correct me) but....

....at some point, Buffy suddenly had a new little sister.* And everyone on the show carried on like she had been there the whole time, which made me think that the writers were either raving lunatics or really really gutsy, because they didn't bother to explain it in any way whatsoever.* And around that same time, some kind of Forces of Evil were looking for a key, which had been hidden by the Forces of Good.* Nobody but the hider knew what it looked like, they only knew that it existed.* (I'm murky on the details of that part but that's the general concept anyway.)*

As it turned out, the key was Buffy's new little sister.* Memories had been given to all of them so that they'd accept that she had always been there, and so she didn't stand out in any way and nobody noticed anything unusual about her or suspected that she was the Key.*

That's a lousy explanation, but I remember how truly awed I was by the genius of it.* What looked like the sheer gutsy total ignoring of any continuity rules or logic in general -- turned out to BE the logic.

And I expect LOST to turn out kind of that way -- only with science, not magic.

OH!* I just remembered something.* It gave me a lot of trouble a while back.* Locke and Rose gave Charlie reversed advice.* Locke told Charlie in The Moth that he could help the moth emerge from it's cocoon, but that the struggle was what made the moth strong.* Rose told Charlie he needed to ask for help in dealing with Claire's disappearance and his near-death encounter.




That's a good catch.

Someone else mentioned how the conversation between Charlie in the cave with Jack was similar to his conversation with Kate concerning delivering the baby. It was a "I can't do it/Yes you can' debate that ended with the person who doubted themselves coming through.

More on Buffy and the key...

The little sister was on two or three episodes before they even explained where she came from. There was some forshadowing of her arrival in the previous season, but her existence was not explained at first.

Glory, a hell dimension Goddess, was banished to our reality to co-exist in a human, live out a human life span and die. She started to gain control of the human's body she was sharing (Ben), and started to look for her "key" with the help of her minions. The "key" was a mystical energy that could open a porthole to her world, but in doing so would open the fabric holding all dimensions together. Therefore, if she ever used the "key" all the dimensions would be exposed to each other and ooze into each other and would cause utter chaos and the end of the world.

The monks decided to hide the "key" from Glory, so they transformed the key into a teenage girl, Dawn. They knew that if they did this the slayer would protect her with her life, which in the end she did. Only people with altered realities (insane people) could see Dawn for what she really was. When they looked at her they said that she was light and shiny, that she didn't belong here, etc.

OK, Sorry I'm a big Buffy fan and I just re-watched Season 5 during the hiatus to pass the time.

Oh, now that you describe it, I did see that! Thanks guys. :)

Problem....I was rewatching Special, but my recording didn't start soon enough. I don't have anything before the scene with Locke teaching Walt to throw knives. What I did get didn't reveal any mirrors that I noticed. If anyone has a few spare minutes and a recording, I would appreciate it if you could check the scene with Michael and Susan at the baby store. It seems like there should be a mirror, maybe part of a toy, that Michael might spot.


I'm on it.
Already have a few ideas.
Coming back to you soon.

(Did I sound like a telegram ? :laugh:)

OK, no mirror in the part you missed Shootifre, but the scene with Walt where the bird hits itself against the window is interesting, don't you think ?

OK, no mirror in the part you missed Shootifre, but the scene with Walt where the bird hits itself against the window is interesting, don't you think ?

Crash, that did interest me quite alot. I kept thinking about what Locke was telling Walt when he was teaching him to throw knives. He kept saying "see it, see it." I wonder if the thing about Walt that is special is what he sees. Maybe he sees through the reflections, maybe for him the glass is more of a window than a mirror.

Yes, Locke said "use your mind's eye".
But I'd rather stick to rational explanations, I don't think Walt has special powers.

Re-watching Hearts and Minds, I found another "mirror" scene with Do No Harm :

Hearts and Minds
Shannon : Are you sure we're going in the right direction?

Boone : If you don't want to follow me, don't.

Shannon : I wouldn't have to follow you if you weren't best friends with the nut case who brought us out here. You and Locke weren't hunting, were you? You were doing something else.

Do No Harm
Shannon : Where are we going?

Sayid : This way.

Shannon : Oh, okay. Are you lost?

Sayid : No, absolutely not. Those trees look really familiar. It's this way - I think.

Shannon : Did you just say: I think?

While Boone leads Shannon to her (virtual) death, Sayid leads her to love.

But I'd rather stick to rational explanations, I don't think Walt has special powers.


Well, I wasn't thinking of it really in a special powers kind of sense. I was actually thinking of it like how an artist sees things, with perspective/depth. Most people look at things on a 2D plane, not really looking for depth. I'm thinking Walt and Michael are both special. Didn't the part at the baby store start out with Michael and Susan looking in the store window? Just working off memory here, and you know, that's flawed.

Good catch on that Shannon thing. I thought there was something odd about Shannon and Sayid's conversation, but I didn't remember the one with Boone. What I do remember about Shannon was that she thought the raft idea was way out there, yet she tried to convince Boone to help her help Michael with it.

Oh, ok, I see what you mean now.
Actually, the part at the baby store started with Micheal and Susan looking at a high expensive cradle, and they were inside the store.

What I do remember about Shannon was that she thought the raft idea was way out there, yet she tried to convince Boone to help her help Michael with it.


A little off the mirror topic, but I think her reasoning was psychological. She knew that Boone had become distant toward her and I think it was her way of reeling him back in. I think she wanted Boone to be in love with her and to be her lap dog, even if she didn't want him back. I still think we need more of their story.

Actually, the part at the baby store started with Micheal and Susan looking at a high expensive cradle, and they were inside the store.

Whoops!* My bad!* I knew my memory was not my strongest point.
I can see them in my "mind's eye" walking into the store from the street after looking in the window, but I guess that's just the way I wanted to remember it.* *;)

Anyway, one of the reasons I was thinking that Special was about Michael and Walt both being special, is that I remember something funny happening with the flashbacks.* Most of the time the camera is on the person having the flashback just prior to having it.* At one point in special, the camera was on Walt prior to the flashback.* It seems, the way I remember it, that Walt was running from whatever he was hearing in the jungle, then we get the flashback of Michael telling Walt that Brian loves him but that it isn't his choice.* I was thinking, whoa, Walt knows that's not true.* He sees through it.* Then we're barely finished with that flashback, when we see Michael and Locke ever so briefly before the next part of the flashback takes place.* It was a timing thing.* The flashbacks are also usually spaced out more than that.


In other words, I think part of that epi did show at least something from Walt's perspective.


Jerseygirl, absolutely!

Well, from the words of the writers in some interviews, the flashbacks regarding Boone and Shannon in one hand, and Micheal and Walt on the other hand, were presented from the perspective of both the characters, so I guess you're right.

Crash,

I think , though I didn't mention it before, there's definitely a psychological aspect to it too. I think there's a deeper reason to Walt not wanting to leave the island than just being tired of moving around a lot. The two people Walt has depended on all of his life have both left him. I think he wants to stay partly because as long as they are on the island, Michael can't leave him.

I think he wants to stay partly because as long as they are on the island, Michael can't leave him.


That's true, but I think the other part is that he may finally feel like he belongs to a family. I think he doesn't want to lose the other survivirs either, especially Locke. Look at how he was treated by his mother and Bryan, practically ignored. Now he is a part of a larger family group (the survivors) and I don't think he wants to lose them either.

JerseyGirl2873 , thanks for the Buffy key elaboration! *

But I'd rather stick to rational explanations, I don't think Walt has special powers.

I understand that, but there are fictional special powers and then there are the real "powers," like the idiot savant* who can do complicated math in his head in a matter of seconds... maybe whatever is special about Walt doesn't have to be irrational, just unusual. *

*I forget what the new PC term is for that now, sorry.

Autism ?

Ah right, autism. Thanks!

I get what you're saying, Kato. *That's very much what I'm thinking without the idiot part. *:laugh:
I think they just call them savant skills now. *There is another term I can't remember from my Child Psych days, multi-something...I think....Blast my memory!

I just really think art is going to have an important role somewhere down the line. *It wasn't lost on me that the father of Claire's baby is an artist. *Michael is a self-taught artist. *Walt likes the pictures. *The mark of an artist is not what he paints, sculpts, writes, and so-on. *It's the way he sees things. *If it was the product that mattered so much, we wouldn't think of the Impressionists as artists at all, just a bunch of flakes. *

Maybe it has to do with right brain and left brain thinkers? *That's kind of a mirror image also.

Multiple intelligences!* That's it!

Good point, Jerseygirl!

I had completely forgotten about the artists they've had so far. *But you're right. *And when I was Googling around with light, mirrors, color... I ran into that whole controversy about whether the Old Masters used a mirror to paint things so realistically. * I'll quote instead of link...

Hockney's theory is that Ingres secretly used a camera lucida to obtain his amazingly lifelike portrait images (and no doubt his complex fabric renderings as well).

You all know what a camera lucida is, right? It's a small prism on the end of a horizontal rod through which an artist may peer at his subject and see the illusion of his image cast upon the paper below it. He can then draw that image in pencil. It's an old drawing gadget, dating back to 1807.

It wasn't lost on me that the father of Claire's baby is an artist. Michael is a self-taught artist.

Aha! Here's another figurative mirror image. Michael, the artist, wanted to be a father. Thomas, the artist, did not.

I had completely forgotten about the artists they've had so far.* But you're right.* And when I was Googling around with light, mirrors, color... I ran into that whole controversy about whether the Old Masters used a mirror to paint things so realistically.* *I'll quote instead of link...


Kato, I just sat through art lectures for two weeks where the Old Master's were contrasted with the Impressionists and that subject was covered.* I cannot believe I forgot that!

Whoa, prisms again. *Colors!

On the Javi interview referenced above,

[if he is referring to the ST:TNG episode linked here: http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/library/episodes/TNG/detail/68454.html what could the cliffhanger be? *We see Locke apparently shot by Sayid in the trailer as Sayid says "No more lies!" *In the Star
Trek episode, the strongest warrior for good: Picard is captured by the forces of evil, the Borg, and transformed into the strongest warrior for evil by overcoming his individuality. *It is a good/light to bad/darkness transformation which left the question unanswered over the summer hiatus: who will survive, Picard or Riker? *Are we being set up for a Jack/Locke showdown with a cliffhanger for months? *

I for one would spend the summer deeply sedated staring into mirrors and prisms, clutching a stuffed Woobie to my breast. *Locke and Picard, two balding shaved headed old farts, not a successful romance between them, Locke in a wheelchair, Picard with an artificial heart. *both with lousy relationships with not-so-dear-old-Dad. *HHHhhhmmmm.....Think I'll drink a martini and stare at my reflection.......

Well, Redemption, I guess now we all have something to reflect on, don't we? :lol2:

And the Impressionists worked with light and shadow... *

(Good points, Redemption! *And evidently the writers are Trek fans.)

And the Impressionists worked with light and shadow...*

Light and dark are any artist's bread and butter.

True, I was just coming back here to say... duh Kato, all artists work with light and shadow.* *:laugh:*

This Hockney thing is pretty interesting, I was following up on it and came across a lot of heated exchanges not unlike the bickering in the PE thread.*

This Hockney thing is pretty interesting, I was following up on it and came across a lot of heated exchanges not unlike the bickering in the PE thread.

Artists and scientists, they are a temperamental lot, eh?

I just keep thinking we're missing the duh point.* The mirror images just pummel us.* The colors/light, the dark/absence of light, mirrors/poles, division/unity, opposites attract?* *:lol2:
Maybe all this boils down to is that conflict is inevitable?* I don't think that's it.* I hope that's not it.* I will have disappointed myself.

I keep thinking about something one of the writers said too. I can't remember which one, I'm afraid, but someone said that a part of the monster would be revealed in the finale. He also said that we might or might not see it. Maybe we can only see it if we know what to look for?

As an aside, the Impressionists were the first to focus on a particular kind of light.* An Impressionist would choose a particular time of the day to paint.* The artist would set up and paint for a set period of time, then stop.* The next day the artist would set up in the same place at the same time and continue.* That's what I mean by artists having "special" sight.* The artist portrays his perception of light.

Artists and scientists, they are a temperamental lot, eh?

They are indeed.* *:roflmao:

I just keep thinking we're missing the duh point.

Me too.* And I think that if I just babble on about it long enough, something will occur to me eventually.* The "serendipity" method of deduction.* *:laugh:

The whole camera-obscura, camera-lucida deal uses light, darkness (the room has to be divided between the two), mirrors, reflection... it sounds like something should be in there, but if it is I don't see it.* And although a lot of amazing illusions can be done with mirrors, I don't see any that relate to the show.

But I do also hope that whatever it is, it isn't just going to boil down to a battle between dark and light.* (How did that theory get started, anyway -- that they'd face off at some point?)

Re what you spoiler-fonted:

I think that sounds about right -- we'd recognize it if we were looking for it.* That sounds like something the devious fiendish writers of this show would do to us.*

And as an aside, the Impressionists are my favorites.* Nobody did light like they did -- to me anyway.*

I keep coming back to your, "It's all done with mirrors," phrase. In the real world, magic is synonymous with mirrors. There are so many seemingly magical elements to this show, yet we know there is supposed to be a scientific explanation. I think the figurative mirrors are a heavy-handed hint to look for the literal mirrors. Going back to the premise of the show, all these people are on this island and nobody can find them because they don't know where to look. It's slight of hand. Slight of hand has been a recurring theme of the show also. Kate is a prime example. I think there must be some kind of mirror effect hiding the island. Planes overhead wouldn't be able to see it. The mirror would be reflecting the sky, just like the ocean, hence La Mer. Does that make sense?

I ran into that whole controversy about whether the Old Masters used a mirror to paint things so realistically. *



That's interesting.* I just watched "Girl with a Pearl Earring" this weekend and I remember at one point the painter was using a mirror to look at the scene he was paining.


I keep coming back to your, "It's all done with mirrors," phrase. In the real world, magic is synonymous with mirrors. There are so many seemingly magical elements to this show, yet we know there is supposed to be a scientific explanation. I think the figurative mirrors are a heavy-handed hint to look for the literal mirrors. Going back to the premise of the show, all these people are on this island and nobody can find them because they don't know where to look. It's slight of hand. Slight of hand has been a recurring theme of the show also. Kate is a prime example. I think there must be some kind of mirror effect hiding the island. Planes overhead wouldn't be able to see it. The mirror would be reflecting the sky, just like the ocean, hence La Mer. Does that make sense?


The whole time I've been coming back and reading this thread I've been thinking about* "smoke and mirrors."* How brilliant would that be?* I really hope there is a logical explanation for what is going on and not some bizare partially scientific explanation.

Also, think back to old time when people believed in magic and witches and other mystical forces.* They believed in these things because they could not understand what they were seeing or what was happening.* For example in the 19th century they believed in spontaneous life because they did not understand how things reproduced.* Magic is just what is misunderstood.

It makes sense to me, Shootfire, keeping in mind that I have no background in science. *If it's a literal mirror -- it would just reflect what it was angled to reflect.

And if it's a figurative mirror... I still wonder about Flight 815. *If the only way to identify a plane once it's airborn is by the radar, and they lost radar, could a mirror flight be possible? *Two flight 815s? *

If what Boone heard was "there were no survivors," that also might be why nobody is looking for them. *Because people think they found them already. *(I've always thought that was the more interesting option of what Boone said -- because the crash hadn't happened that long ago, and yet the answer was immediate and final, like there was no possibility that a survivor could turn up.)

And here's something that just occured to me... how did the Marshal know to put up posters about Kate in Nowhere, Australia? *(Didn't the farmer see a poster in town or something?) *Not that that's on topic or anything, I'm just pursuing the serendipity as it comes along.

I should probably start a thread that has no topic, so that I quit messing up everyone else's. * :laugh:

(The entire knock-down, drag-out fight about it is interesting, JerseyGirl -- just Google "Hockney theory" and you'll get pages of bickering and refuting!)

Magic is just what is misunderstood.

Oh, I like that. :)

Kato, let's back up to your one-way mirror idea for a minute. There has been kind of a big deal made out of the suntan lotion with Boone and Shannon, right? So....why are we not seeing more sunburns in those who don't have suntan lotion?

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/encyclopedia/m/mi/mirror.htm

Would it be possible to put a dome like that on a land mass that big?* (Without some kind of supporting structure?)* Although... if mirrors were used to hide the island, I guess they wouldn't have to be a dome, they could be smaller mirrors placed at strategic angles.* But the mirrors would still be big enough for people to notice them... unless they didn't look like mirrors.

(What about floating mirrors, out beyond where anyone is likely to swim?* Nobody would notice a mirror there.)

Ah I've got nothin' Shootfire... and I suppose I had better tear myself away from fictional mirrors and get cracking on real life stuff.** :laugh:

Ah I've got nothin' Shootfire... and I suppose I had better tear myself away from fictional mirrors and get cracking on real life stuff.* *

Real life stuff?* What's that?* :lol2:

I'm thinking we're not going to get a tangible substrate.* I think it has to be something maybe electromagnetic.* Otherwise, when the plane crashed, a tangible mirror would have been shattered.

I think it just has to be something electromagnetic. There's something funny going on with waves in general on the island. I remember when Locke made the dog whistle and Boone said he didn't think it was working. Locke told Boone, "You can't hear everything." Then we have mysterious radio waves being transmitted on top of everything else.

You can't hear everything, and you can't see everything. I can't explain anything!!!! :lol2:

I'm a firm believer in the electromagnetic and radio wave theory. There being different types of radio waves IE; Microwave, RF, ELF. I've wondered if the number's aren't actually different frequency radio waves that may be the key to opening the hatch. To give an example(definitely not saying aliens are involved) in close encounters, the mystery ended up being solved with musical notes. What if the frequency of the radio transmission Boone made on the plane prior to it falling was the signal to open the hatch?

What if the frequency of the radio transmission Boone made on the plane prior to it falling was the signal to open the hatch?

I think that is as good a theory as I've heard yet on the hatch. I just want someone to explain one thing to me, though. Why did Claire come when Locke blew the dog whistle. :laugh:

Is she Vincent in disguise?

Or is like Freaky Friday and Claire and Vincent bumped into each other and switched bodies.

I agree that if there is a dome over the island it has to be electromagnetic, would there be a way for something like that to take on similar properties as a mirror or lens?

Contos,

I've been searching and searching for something like that on the web. Right now I'm reading everything I can find on stealth technology. Maybe the answer is there somewhere.

Hey folks,

I don't know what, if anything, we can do with this little bit of info. I just thought it was kind of interesting. The first mirror on record is an artificial mirror. It was made from black obsidian,
volcanic rock. Hmmm.....

Excuse me. Did you say Black Rock?

What would be the purpose of making such a dome ?
Just think about the amount of energy it would require, and the consequences of it on people, nature, and the water that's surrounding the island. Such a technology, with the knowledge and control of all the features it implies, is just not possible in our days. And a dome has a permanent quality which I don't see the utility.

We don't even know if someone has trapped them on the island, nor if someone don't want them to leave.
All we know is :
Someone (one of the lostaways, or one of the others, or anyone else) didn't want Sayid to locate the source of the transmission.
Ethan just wanted Claire's baby.
Someone spoke to Boone and the words that were said are questionned.

Now, I don't rule out this kind of technology, we know there is a communication device, it's possible that there are some detection, interception and jamming devices.
Even stealth technology as you're thinking of Shoot.
But maybe we should think smaller.
It's hard to make a plane disappear, ok, and even more curious that no one, as far as we know, is looking for them.
But think about it, who did anyone of the lostaways leave behind who would look after them ?

Locke : His Dad made clear he's not really attached to his son, and God knows what his Mum is doing.
Jack : Did his Mum know he and his father were on flight 815 ? Or is she still waiting for news from Jack's searches about his father ? By the way, what happened between him and Sarah ?
Kate : She's on the run, made sure to erase her tracks, and the only one who knew where to find her is dead.
Sawyer : On the run too.
Sayid : Well here's the thing, we don't know much about him, not even why he was in Sydney.
Hurley : We saw how privacy is important to him, and he made that clear to his Mum too.
Charlie : We saw how he left his brother.
Claire : I'm pretty sure she didn't want anyone to know about what she was going to do with her child, the only one who knows is the psychic, and we know the rest.
Micheal and Walt : Susan is dead and Brian doesn't want to hear about them anymore.
Boone and Shannon : Well Boone wanted to be considered as a grown up man, so we can assume he didn't let his mother stick her nose in his private life, and we know about Shannon.
Jin and Sun : Jin's Dad must be thinking his son has followed his advice, and Sun was supposed to run away, and we know her Dad is a really busy man.

So, what's left ?
Oceanic officials ? Federal agencies ? Army ? They're looking in the wrong place, if they're still looking after a month.

That was a little off topic, sorry, just babbling like Kato. :D
Sorry if I seemed to be a little rude, that's how I am when I come across ideas that suggest a conspiracy (like the dome), because not only I don't see the purpose of it, but there is a lot of evidences that a conspiracy isn't possible here.

But if it happens to be actually a conspiracy, I will eat my tongue. :D

BTW, I have a theory regarding the place they are and the compass not pointing north.
In short, Rousseau's map indicates they are on a volcanic island, and after some googling, I learned that volcanic activity can deviate the needle of a compass.
Sayid said a minor anomaly could explain a variation of 2 or 3 degrees, but a volcanic activity involves major electromagnetic anomalies.

Jack : Did his Mum know he and his father were on flight 815 ?

Damn, of course she knew, a hearse was expecting Jack at LAX.
Sorry for that one.
But I'm still convinced that no one really cares about where they are now.

Well then, I guess that answers my question, namely, would a dome even be possible.

Just a point: there were other people on the plane besides the Lostaways. *

I think it's a given that nobody wants them to leave the island, if there is a "nobody" i.e. if someone brought them there in the first place. *Because if people left the island, they'd talk about it, and eventually it would be swarmed with scientists and journalists and such. *

Sorry if I seemed to be a little rude, that's how I am when I come across ideas that suggest a conspiracy (like the dome), because not only I don't see the purpose of it, but there is a lot of evidences that a conspiracy isn't possible here.

Yes, I do realize that these brainstorming tangents like domes and such drive you (and others) up the wall, but in my experience, sometimes the best ideas are a spin-off of the ridiculous. *Domes do seem impossible, however, that doesn't mean that some other good idea won't emerge while discussing them. *The aforementioned serendipity factor, if you will. *

Yes, I do realize that these brainstorming tangents like domes and such drive you (and others) up the wall, but in my experience, sometimes the best ideas are a spin-off of the ridiculous. Domes do seem impossible, however, that doesn't mean that some other good idea won't emerge while discussing them. The aforementioned serendipity factor, if you will.

I agree, that's why I try to keep an open mind. And even if we can't bound those ideas to Lost, it's always good to learn something, and wise to know that you can learn from anyone.

Very true, I've already learned more just chasing down dead ends in the 8 months since the show started, than I probably learned in the last four years put together.* *:laugh:*

Sorry if I seemed to be a little rude, that's how I am when I come across ideas that suggest a conspiracy (like the dome), because not only I don't see the purpose of it, but there is a lot of evidences that a conspiracy isn't possible here.


Not rude, just frustrated. *I'm not sure I ever mentioned a man-made dome specifically, though I have considered it. * I just think I would have to understand a man-made dome before I could really get a grip on how one might come about in nature.

Actually, I wasn't really going for a techie/conspiracy answer, though I'm not going to dismiss one out of hand. *I was hoping to find something that would point to something in nature. *I would love, like I said before, for this to be about natural science/earth science. *I had actually seen something in my mirror searches about using mirrors in stealth technology, which is what the effect of a mirror effect over the island would amount to. *That's why I went there to explore it. *I also believe it's possible for there to be an electromagnetic explanation from an earth science perspective. *If natural nuclear reactors are possible, I think a great many things are possible. *I had never heard of one until I visited this forum.

About the volcanic thing.....I'm spoiler fonting because I'm not sure how this would be taken...

Didn't Javi say something about the finale and explosive??? *;)I'm thinking that might fit.


In conjunction with the volcanic idea, can anyone think of how obsidian might act as a mirror casting a large enough reflection or many reflections of the sky to obscure the island? *I don't think it's a case of nobody looking. *I think it's possibly a case of nobody being able to see them. *When a flight goes down, search and recovery efforts go forward regardless of who's waiting for news.


Oops!* New posts.* Gonna post this one and try to catch up.

Yes! LBL, black rock!!!

But think about it, who did anyone of the lostaways leave behind who would look after them ?


I think there might be people looking for them but they would be looking in the wrong places.

Boone's mom would be looking in Australia. I doubt she would be looking for Shannon but it would be a thing of where you find one you might find the other.

Charlie MIGHT have someone waiting for him in LA in connection with the music biz (remember Driveshaft was supposed to go on tour for EIGHT weeks) but once again if he didn't show they MIGHT assume he decided to stay with Liam.

Sun's dad would probably look for her but if he found Jin's dad they would be more than likely be looking in the US.

We don't know if Sawyer is 'on the run' because we don't know yet if they have connected the murder of the shrimp man with him. I think he was probably picked up for a minor infraction and kicked out of the country. However I doubt anyone would be looking for him except maybe the lottery woman.

I agree with your spoiler fonted comment, and I must add I would really love this !

In 16 years, no one has rescued Danielle, if we admit that the iterations are right and nobody has hijacked it.
So yes, the problem might come from the island, or something around the island, which prevents them from being detected, disturbing devices enough to keep planes, choppers and ships to get closer to the island, thus keeping the lostaways out of sight.

Is there some sort of coral that would have some magnetic properties ?

Elfdream, thank you for your corrections, I realize it makes more sense. :D

I know it's just fiction, but wouldn't the fictional victims of the crash have fictional families who might miss them?* I'm unclear on why we're not including them.

I love the spoiler-fonted comment as well.* And thanks for always making clear whether it's something the writers said or an actual spoiler -- it makes it easier to decide whether to highlight.* :)

Crashover, I like the coral idea.* If coral doesn't have those properties, maybe something else that rings the island... maybe that ties in with what drowned Joanna?

If coral doesn't have those properties, maybe something else that rings the island... maybe that ties in with what drowned Joanna?

That's it ! They've fallen right in the middle of the Annual Congress of Electric Eels ! :lol2:
Just joking.

Too funny! :lol2:

I agree Kato. Hurley's family would most certainly be looking for him! The news agencies would have a field day, especially if recovery efforts were cut short of the norm.

Hmmm...after re-reading the aforementioned spoiler-fonted statement, I'm glad it was clear to you. It's not that clear to me. I will try to make it a point to do that in the future.

Elfdream, good points.

Eels... *:laugh:

If they're hiding an entire island in plain sight, maybe it's not that it's invisible (literally or figuratively)... maybe something about it gives you the wrong information when you're in its vicinity? *So that you think you're looking at something else entirely?

I remembered some early Google search or another turning up the information that polar bears can not be detected with infra-red because they don't give out any heat, so I thought I'd look them up again and see if there was any more to that...

Because polar bears give off no detectable heat, they do not show up in infrared photographs. (Infrared film measures heat.) When a scientist attempted to photograph a bear with such film, he produced a print with a single spot--the puff of air caused by the animal's breath.


And turned up this in the process....

Despite what our eyes tell us, a polar bear's fur is not white. Each hair shaft is pigment-free and transparent with a hollow core.

Polar bears look white because the hollow core scatters and reflects visible light, much like ice and snow does.

When photographed with film sensitive to ultraviolet light, polar bears appear black

So there's another interesting little light reflection factor, not to mention the black/white theme again. *

Shootfire -- you know, I think I was thinking of a different spoiler-fonted writers-said thing.* *:laugh:* But you don't post spoiler-spoilers, so you're usually safe to read anyway.

Obsidian is of low significance as a material for gemstones, but the so-called volcanic glasses provide interest for the many uses to which they have been put by aboriginal man and by the enigma of their genesis. Obsidian is formed by the rapid cooling of volcanic lava which, had it been allowed to cool slowly, would have developed a crystalline structure and assumed the character of granitic rocks. There can be no exact chemical composition given for obsidian, for it may vary greatly, but all obsidian has from 66 to 72 per cent of silica and is an extreme modification of rhyolite and dacite rocks.



Now, isn't this interesting. Obsidian is volcanic GLASS!

Oh Kato! Polar bears are awesome!

Kato and Shoot, that's amazing !
What's the use to watch National Geographic now ? :laugh:

Definition: A representation of a physical object formed by a lens, mirror or other optical instrument. If the rays of light actually pass through the image, it is called a real image. If a screen is placed in the plane of a real image it will generally become visible. If the image is seen at a point from which the rays appear to come to the observer, but do not actually do so, the image is called a virtual image. No image will be formed on a screen placed at this point. Images may be upright or inverted and they may be magnified or diminished.


Examples: A convex mirror forms a virtual image that appears to lie behind the glass, whereas a concave mirror can form a real image which appears to lie in the space between the glass and the observer.



Sooo...to anyone above the glass it might look like the sky?

But what about the vegetation, the beaches, the shorebreak ?

Crash, I would think the vegetation element would depend on the elevation and terrain where the black rock is located. Not sure about the rest, I have to research this more.

Kato, here's a camera lucida reference for you.

Similarly, Michael D. Coe, in "Mexico", writes: Certain Olmec sculptures and figurines show persons wearing pectorals of concave shape around the neck, and such have actually come to light in offerings, These oddly enough turned out to be concave mirrors of magnetite and ilmenite, the reflecting surfaces polished to optical specifications. What were they used for? Experiments have shown that they can not only start fires, but also throw images on flat surfaces like a camera lucida. They were pierced for suspension, and one can imagine the hocus-pocus which some mighty Olmec preist was able to perform with one of these.

(Making a mental note to search for those on eBay.)* *:laugh:* Gee I'd sure like to tinker with a camera lucida right now, I wish I had one laying around the house.

So if there were any natural concave shapes to the black rock it might act as a mirror?* (Or would it have to be convex?)

Or hell, why would it have to be natural, the black rock could be man-made -- the hatch is after all.* Or, it could be a hunk of black rock that was carved a certain way.

(Can't wait to see this nefarious black rock!)

Well, if it's obsidian, it's certainly there by natural means. If the island is indeed volcanic, there is no further need to explain its existence on the island. As for the shape of the black rock, well, I think it's important, but I haven't gotten that far. I'm trying to wrap my head around angle of incidence matters first. ::) :laugh:

So if there were any natural concave shapes to the black rock it might act as a mirror? (Or would it have to be convex?)


For that matter it could be faceted and in effect be multiple plane mirrors.
I wonder if I'm not just stuck on the plane or something. :lol2:

Hmmm, did they say we get to know what the black rock is this season?

Hey, I wonder where the island might be in relation to the ring of fire?

I know you are looking for everything to be natural but not everything can be, because the Hatch is definitely man made and was put there by man and not nature. We don't have to go with government conspiracy theories because a privately funded scientific experiment is more feasible and doesn't have to involve governments of any country.

Let's say the Island's location is far away from normal shipping lanes and aircraft routes, so there wouldn't be the necessity for it to be invisible to the naked eye. Let's also say that the island is volcanic and there is a natural electromagnetic source that makes it appear as an underwater volcano to satellite pictures. The high source of electromagnetic waves that are emanating also cause instrumentation to go haywire and heavy air turbulence in the area. Maybe the pilot of Flight 815 heard the transmission from the island and went off course to investigate just like Danielle's team did and once they were close enough their instruments were affected. The people surviving is just one of those freak things that happen, it can't really be explained. Just like some car accident's where the car is demolished yet the driver walks away without so much as a scratch, it does happen. No logical explanation.

I'm still hoping they'll have a logical explanation for the survival rate.* They did kind of hit on the point that some of them were supposed to have been sitting somewhere else... Charlie should have been back in the tail, Boone and Shannon should have been in first class, and Rose's husband should have been sitting next to her.

(Gee, it just struck me that Charlie, Shannon and Boone were all killed at some point, although it was just a fakeout with Shannon and Charlie.* And... Rose thinks her husband is still alive.)

But anyway.* A privately funded conspiracy... I like that.* *Someone... some group discovered its strange properties and is using them for (whatever)?

And something else that just struck me -- if the island has a natural invisibility that destroys planes and ships, and anyone who gets trapped on it is stuck there for all time..... who built the hatch?* At some point, someone had to go there armed with hatch-building materials, which means they were able to see the island and get the materials to it.*

The hatch and the radio tower do pose problems. As you said Kato someone at some point in time was able to come and go from the island.

So if start with a privately funded secret scientific experiment because of the high level of electromagnetic power and the Volcanic activity including large amounts of obsidian that were found here. So the science team that was originally there was responsible for installing the hatch and the radio tower. They also were able to harness the electromagnetic power and utilize it to make the island appear invisible to satellite pictures from advancements through experiments on the polar bears. What if the Black Rock is literally just that, an extremely large deposit of obsidian. The cables comming in from the sea is tapping into the electromagnetic power source under the water and they are able to combine the two to cause the island to avoid detection, it also causes the problems with the instrumentation and the heavy air turbulence.

Is there a way to combine the obsidian and electromagnetic fields?

I don't know enough about electromagnetic fields to know, but here's some more stuff about obsidian:

(from http://volcanoes.usgs.gov/Products/Pglossary/obsidian.html)

Obsidian is dense volcanic glass, usually rhyolite in composition and typically black in color. Compared with window glass, obsidian is rich in iron and magnesium; tiny (<.005 mm) crystals of iron oxide within the glass cause its dark color.*

The colors in obsidian result from the oxidation state of the chemical elements within the tiny minerals that are finely dispersed in the glass. Black color results chiefly from magnetite, Fe304.

I wonder if a vast hunk of it would be enough to throw off a compass?

Guys,

I'm just coming up empty on how a mirror image could be projected from the obsidian that would be large enough to camoflage the island anyway. It would have to be directed at some kind of particles in the atmosphere over the island, particles that reflect. Anyway, I've got nothing. :laugh: I absolutely get what you are saying lbl. I just don't want all the mysteries of island explained by some stupid think people have done. :laugh: I do think it would be hysterical if the hatch was actually a cold-war era bomb shelter and Alex was living inside it. Robert could have put Alex there and said "stay here until I get back." Since Danielle was killing everybody, Robert was trying to protect Alex. ;D

Anyway, I've got 2 classes this morning. I can't wait to get back here and check out what else you all come up with in my absence.

Ok, I've found a site that has to do with particles reflecting a laser beam. I know a laser beam is different from sunlight. I'm just toying with the idea that particles in the atmosphere could be reflecting light from the sky. This link has an experiment that might support something of that nature.

http://phun.physics.virginia.edu/demos/laser.html

I really liked this part.

Step 2: When the chalkdust is added to the air, the laser beams reflect off the tiny particles of chalk which are in the air. The chalk dust particles reflect the laser beam, spreading the light in all directions. The laser beam can therefore be seen.



LBL, I'm looking for the natural explanations, but I'm not holding my breathe. You have some really good thoughts there. Yes, that hatch and the radio tower need to be explained also. So does the Civil Defense emblem under the cot/hammock that Sayid was on at Danielle's place.

The key is Danielle.
In 16 years, no one has responded to her distress call, why that ?
Has it been really 16 years ? Even she is surprised it's been so long.
If you were in such a case of isolation, wouldn't you measure the time, as prisoners and hostages do ?

I keep coming back to her distress call. If the others really controlled the transmission tower, what would be the purpose to them for letting the transmission being broadcasted ?

I just thought of another reason that people might not be able to find the lostaways.* The USGS warns aviators to stay away from certain areas when there is volcanic activity/ash in the area.* I frequent the USGS site quite a bit and just remembered that little tidbit.

Similarly, the complexity of the physics and chemistry of atmospheric aerosols, and the lack of observations of them over the globe, has meant that aerosols, which can cool the Earth by reflection of sunlight, are also poorly simulated in climate models.


Next question, what kinds of gases are emitted from volcanoes?

I just thought of another reason that people might not be able to find the lostaways. The USGS warns aviators to stay away from certain areas when there is volcanic activity/ash in the area. I frequent the USGS site quite a bit and just remembered that little tidbit.


But it doesn't include ships, does it ?

No, that doesn't include ships.* However, the Pacific is huge.* There's very little chance that* ships could cover enough territory for a thorough search and recovery mission on their own.* The best way to search would be from the air, then directing ships to possible crash sites, don't you think?

No, that doesn't include ships. However, the Pacific is huge. There's very little chance that ships could cover enough territory for a thorough search and recovery mission on their own. The best way to search would be from the air, then directing ships to possible crash sites, don't you think?


Sounds logical.
But it doesn't explain why no one has responded to Danielle's transmission, broadcasted from a radio tower, which we can assume was made for long distance communications.

Now that you mention it Crashover, I guess we don't really know if the island affects ships. * According to Danielle, theirs crashed in a storm. *Unless electromagnetic fields can manipulate the weather, there is nothing in common with the plane crash there. *Maybe the island can be seen by and reached by boats. *But like Shootfire said, there isn't much hope of a boat just happening upon them.

I keep coming back to her distress call. If the others really controlled the transmission tower, what would be the purpose to them for letting the transmission being broadcasted ?

I keep coming back to it too, but my question is, if it was a distress call as in she was hoping some passing ship would pick it up and respond, why was it worded the way it was? *It always sounded to me like she expected the receiver to know what she was talking about. *"Brennan has the key. *I'll try to make it to the Black Rock." *But that's another (long dead) thread. * :laugh:

Possible reasons it's still running:

1. *They can't change it back for some reason.
2. *To block outgoing signals and scare anyone who hears it.
3. *They don't know it's running.
4. *It's not still running -- they just pulled it out and played it so the Lostaways wouldn't pick up what's usually running.
5. *They're hoping it attracts someone who knows why Danielle is there and who is looking for her... they're using it as a trap.

1.* They can't change it back for some reason.

Does anyone remember where the radio tower was in relation to the crater?* An active crater would emit noxious gasses.* Maybe the others are just trying to keep people away from that area because they know it is dangerous?* That could also explain why the writers said:

For some reason the lostaways would not be able to map the island/know how large it is.[quote]Maybe the sickness is caused by noxious gasses?

Well hmmm.... it would have to be a disease that's passed along by some means, since she shot them all to keep it from spreading.* It must not have any really overt symptoms ("what them closely"),* and yet she knew Sayid didn't have it, so whatever the symptoms are they're easy to spot if you know what to look for?* And for some reason she's immune.* (Taking things at face value and assuming she's not sick herself.)*

I don't know enough about diseases and physiology to get anything out of that.* But if something about or around the Black Rock is spreading the disease, it doesn't make sense that Danielle would return to it to change the message to a distress call.* Unless she knew she was immune, and she knew why.

Look what I found at the Australian Airforce site.

Another approach would be to make a mirror out of thin air. When warm air lies on top of cold air, the difference in density is enough to bend light. At higher altitudes, a mirage can make whole landscapes appear in the sky. An artificial mirage could in theory be made by heating the atmosphere with radio waves or microwaves.

Maybe it's something as simple as reducing the level of O2 in blood enough to cause poor judgement/hypoxia? Maybe the closer you get to where emissions of noxious gasses are, the worse your symptoms become? A run-in with the others may have been mere coincidence and Danielle is suffering from poor judgement herself? ;) It's just a guess.

I just don't know how a virus is going to effect behavior (watch them closely) as a first sign. Seems like there would be other things that would show more prominently first. Maybe they didn't feel well, but it just seemed like she never saw it coming.

Very nice find about the mirage.* I'm going to put my Google finds in this post...

http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Beach/7002/mirage.htm* --* Atmospheric Optical Mirages* (I like the double-sunset one.)

http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/13646/92077 -- Superior Mirages (the sun on the horizon is one of them)... has diagrams.

----
Adding for the hell of it... what if the sickness is visual?* And those who have it see something they shouldn't be seeing.

But if something about or around the Black Rock is spreading the disease, it doesn't make sense that Danielle would return to it to change the message to a distress call. Unless she knew she was immune, and she knew why.

Precisely.
We don't know if she was the only woman of her team, but let's say she was.
Maybe the sickness affects only males ?

Shoot - Makes me think of Solar wind, but it's unlikely.

Interesting theory, Crashover!

Great find on those atmospheric optical illusions. Very interesting. When I was talking about the dome earlier, I didn't mean an actual dome over the island. Just some sort of electromagnetic radiation acting like a sort of dome. Not sure if it would be natural or man made, but it seems like it's possible to me. It could have been set up *to protect people from seeing the island. Maybe they have something in the hatch or else where they don't the world to know about, that they are trying to hide. It could be that it was set up long ago, so that the secret or experiment or whatever else wouldn't fall into the wrong hands. As an unintended side effect, it's actually bringing people to the island in the form of plane crashes because it somehow messes with their equipment. Or, "others" that have been on the island for a while have figured out how to manipulate it for their own use.

Just thoughts....stream of consciousness really...

This is something I researched earlier that may link to your thinking Shootfire. *It's a project called HAARP.


http://www.haarp.alaska.edu/

Below is a link to an article that is highly controversial. *There are many who feel that HAARP's uses may be developed for military usages. *There are a lot of articles on the internet about. *But just thought I'd add this. *

http://www.crystalinks.com/haarp.html

ADDED
Here is information on Nicola Tesla and about his vision of an electromagnetic dome.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/doug_teslat.htm

Stream of consciousness here too.... so if these mirages are created by cold air lying beneath relatively warmer air, and the island temperature is warm, for this to be happening on the island there has to be a cold layer under the island/water? *Or.... a cold layer over the island and then a warm layer over that? * Okay, I'm not making sense to myself, but essentially... if these things can be recreated in some way, then somewhere over or under the island there would have to be a layer of cold air, right?

(Off to read LBL's links.)

Stream of consciousness here too.... so if these mirages are created by cold air lying beneath relatively warmer air, and the island temperature is warm, for this to be happening on the island there has to be a cold layer under the island/water? Or.... a cold layer over the island and then a warm layer over that? Okay, I'm not making sense to myself, but essentially... if these things can be recreated in some way, then somewhere over or under the island there would have to be a layer of cold air, right?

(Off to read LBL's links.)


According to Shoot's quote, it couldn't work, because the phenomenon appears only in high altitude.

I'm not seeing where that high altitude limitation comes in? Could you elaborate?

I'm not seeing where that high altitude limitation comes in? Could you elaborate?



Here, Shoot's quote :

Another approach would be to make a mirror out of thin air. When warm air lies on top of cold air, the difference in density is enough to bend light. At higher altitudes, a mirage can make whole landscapes appear in the sky. An artificial mirage could in theory be made by heating the atmosphere with radio waves or microwaves.

Lots of great thoughts from all of you. *I haven't explored all the links yet, but give me a minute or two... :laugh:

Crash kind of caught my fancy with the solar wind idea. *Solar wind is related to polar auroras, another atmospheric illusion. *The way I read it, Solar wind carries a solar magnetic field that interacts with earth's magnetic field. *
Quote from Wikipedia:

These particles will create dayside aurora. Nightside auroras are created from particles accelerated from the magnetopheric tail towards the Earth. These particles will be trapped on the closed field line. Electrons trapped in the Earth's magnetic field (the magnetic mirror effect) are accelerated along the magnetic field toward the polar regions and then strike the atmosphere to form the aurora. Auroras are most intense at times of intense magnetic storms caused by sunspot activity. The distribution of auroral intensity with altitude shows a pronounced maximum near 100 km above the Earth.


Obviously there are atmospheric magnetic mirrors. *I'm back to thinking a mirror/optical illusion/mirage is within the realm of possibility.....whatever the source :lol2:

Edited: OOps sorry LBL, Crash, actually, I don't think that's what the link says, exactly.
The way I read, it says at higher altitudes whole landscapes can appear in the sky. *The mirror wouldn't be at low altitude, as in on earth, at sea level. *It would be in the atmosphere. *Is that what you were saying? *Maybe I misunderstand. ??? :)

Contos,

I understood you. I also don't think we can rule anything out as far as conspiracy/manmade problems. Just because I may not want to believe it, doesn't mean that's not the way it is written. :laugh:

Okay, so is it that the mirage could only be seen at a high altitude (which is what they'd need for planes to see it) and the warm/cold layers of air themselves would need to be at a high altitude? (Sorry to be dense.)

(Take your time explaining it to me, I have to leave anyway!)

There must be some sort of high thermal amplitude condition for these phenomenons to occur, because the observations and experiences are made around the polar regions.
And the island is located close to the equator, where the temperature doesn't vary much along the year.
That's why I said Solar wind is an unlikely cause.

Where I'm going is that the HAARP project is designed to heat the Ionosphere. *Tying that in with your mirror theory. *Warm air over cold air. *Also read the article about Tesla, he is not some crackpot but actually was responsible for AC current, the harnessing of Niagara falls as well as many other patents that have proven useful to this day. *Just some food for thought.

I'm not trying to take this into wild theories, but maybe logical little jumps from today's technology. *Remember we have been told by the creators that there will be both a logical and "SciFi" explanation to every mystery. *I enjoy posting with everyone on this thread because there seems to be the common goal of explaining the mysteries instead of just defending one's own point of view. *Please just take the above information and use it in any way you see fit or not.

LBL,

Sorry if there was any confusion. I directed a reply to the wrong person in a previous post. It's edited now. I'm going through your links and they are fascinating. I'm also seeing some possibility for why communications were lost on flight 815.

LBL,

Sorry if there was any confusion. I directed a reply to the wrong person in a previous post. It's edited now. I'm going through your links and they are fascinating. I'm also seeing some possibility for why communications were lost on flight 815.


Exactly. Don't worry about the confusion. I just like to clarify so that we continue on the happy road you have provided. Thank You.

Shoot,

Yes, that's what I was saying, those phenomenons can be observed only at high altitude.

So the mirror could be at a lower altitude so long as the observer is at a high altitude, airplane.* What am I not seeing? ??? :-\

Uh, me too... what am I not connecting?* I ran across lots of phenomenon that were seen from ground level at various altitudes, the most common one being the setting sun.* The mirages weren't limited to any one geographical area.

Thanks for explaining HAARP LBL, I see where you're going with that.* (I hadn't quite plowed through all the information on the link pages.)

Edit -- oh, solar wind, sorry!* I was still on the superior mirages.* Okay I see -- solar wind couldn't occur at the equator.*

Unless they had some means of superheating or supercooling air, anyway.* (I think that's where LBL's HAARP comes in, right?)

(I realize things get pretty complicated at that point and we're now leaving behind a natural occurrence -- but still, those polar bears; how are they surviving in the tropics? Maybe they have a source of cold air somewhere.)
*

Unless they had some means of superheating or supercooling air, anyway.

Like HAARP, or like a volcano?* *:laugh:

Edit -- oh, solar wind, sorry! I was still on the superior mirages. Okay I see -- solar wind couldn't occur at the equator.


Argh! Ok, now I get it. Bear with me, sometimes it takes me a while to catch on::)

Ah right, volcanos :)

So we have a non-paranormal, non-pseudo science possibility for why the island could be "cloaked," and potentially both the natural means and the technology to recreate that phenomenon.* And it's not a complicated phenomenon, everyone is already familiar with the mirage of water on the highway (although that's an inferior mirage people still understand the concept and have most likely seen it).* Cool!

(Or, a similar phenomenon with solar winds, which I don't understand as well so I'll read up.)

I enjoy posting with everyone on this thread because there seems to be the common goal of explaining the mysteries instead of just defending one's own point of view.

ME too, LBL!

The HAARP is real they do have the means to heat the Ionosphere. What is debatable is the far reaching uses of the technology. I have done quite a bit of research and according to the patents that were issued, there were plans of testing it for communications & changing weather among other things. We haven't seen the radio tower at the Black Rock, so there is the possibility that it is more than just a radio tower.

Alright Shootfire, If they have the ability to heat the Ionosphere, creating warm air above the cool air then the Island could be invisible to satellites, therefore un-mapped. If the Island is away from normal shipping and air routes, it is possible that nothing much passes this way. As far as we know, the Ship and 2 planes that came close enough crashed. The instruments and communications having gone haywire.

changing weather

Well now that's interesting, because if it could be done, they could keep ships from getting to the island in one piece as well.

Well now that's interesting, because if it could be done, they could keep ships from getting to the island in one piece as well.


And, the continuing apperance of rain at the most oportune times.

I have done quite a bit of research and according to the patents that were issued, there were plans of testing it for communications & changing weather among other things. *We haven't seen the radio tower at the Black Rock, so there is the possibility that it is more than just a radio tower.



I had actually read something about manipulating the weather, but I really didn't get it until I read your HAARP stuff. *Interestingly enough, I found it while I was looking into magnetic mirrors. * ;D

You know, even if this doesn't turn out to be what's going on, I think it's really cool that the mirror discussion let to a totally plausible explanation for how the island could be "cloaked," that is pure science.* And that could potentially even explain the compass, the polar bears, the radio tower and the rain on demand, using existing science and its potential.*

You know, even if this doesn't turn out to be what's going on, I think it's really cool that the mirror discussion let to a totally plausible explanation for how the island could be "cloaked," that is pure science. And that could potentially even explain the compass, the polar bears, the radio tower and the rain on demand, using existing science and its potential.

Kato,

I like it too. You know, I really hoped this thread could be a meeting of minds. I always learn more when I listen to other people's perspectives. This group of posters has been awesome with giving respect to everyone's opinions, even if they didn't agree. I think a lot of us have similar ideas, we just approach them differently. Even if it doesn't turn out to be what IS going on, I know I have enjoyed the discussion. I can't wait to watch the show tonight and see if there is anything else we have missed in the mirror discussion. It's almost time Signing off for now.....

I totally agree.* I hope we can do more of this.* :)

Just throwing in one more interesting link about superior mirages before I watch the show....* I'm still plowing through the Google results just for the heck of it now, since this concept actually interests me beyond the scope of its Lost usefulness.* *:laugh:

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/196805/mirages.htm

Excerpt:


One summer a few years ago a pilot flying a seaplane from the Gulf of Mexico to the West Coast developed engine trouble over Arizona. When a quick check of his maps revealed that he was in range of Cochise County's Hado Flats, he breathed a sigh of relief: only the winter before he had passed this way on the Southern Pacific railroad, and he remembered seeing along the right-of-way a lake about 10 miles long, with an island in the middle, and the surrounding mountains clearly reflected in its waters. Sure enough, when he altered course and let down through the bumpy air, there was the same lake, beckoning him toward the safety of its smooth, glistening waters. He swung the nose of his plane into the wind, throttled back, and touched down, completely demolishing his plane on the brick-hard surface of a lake that had abruptly disappeared.


A split second too late, the pilot discovered that an optical illusion had induced him to land in the middle of a bone-dry lake bed. As an example of nature's whimsy, this particular mirage would be hard to improve upon, for ironically enough when the pilot had observed the same area from his train window the winter before, it had been a lake and the water in it had been real. Brimming with water from mountain runoff following winter rains, the lake regularly dries up under the hot summer sun, but the smooth baked-mud bottom provides a perfect reflector above which the sun's shimmering rays create a fictitious lake, complete with upside-down images of adjacent mountains mirrored in its surface.

Late, I should be reading this.

http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=6487.0 We covered light all through this thread
http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=6230.0 Infrared

Heating the atmosphere (via the ionosphere) poses a few problems, especially in the place where the island is located.
I don't question the HAARP, they do have means to do such things, however, they aren't able to control the consequences of their experiences.

1st : The amount of energy and the logistic that would be required.
2nd : The risks of such an installation. As I and a few others said, hanging around such an amount of electromagnetic energy is really unsafe. Most of the first radiologists who have worked on EM waves have died of cancer and such. And nowadays we still question the effects of a cellphone, for example, which is on its way a kind of tiny EM generator.
3rd : The location of the island. Heating the atmosphere and keep control of what happens implies to contain the portion you're heating in a restrained area to prevent dispersion, which is impossible. Besides, the equator is the spot of convergence of all the winds, because this is where Earth runs the faster (932 Mph)
4th : The island itself. Why would one set such an installation on a volcanic island, subject by nature to EM perturbations ?

However, I do agree there must be something more at the radio tower, maybe a science lab or a military post.
It's just me, I think smaller ! :D

As I and a few others said, hanging around such an amount of electromagnetic energy is really unsafe.

Maybe that's what the hatch is about?


2nd : The risks of such an installation. As I and a few others said, hanging around such an amount of electromagnetic energy is really unsafe. Most of the first radiologists who have worked on EM waves have died of cancer and such. And nowadays we still question the effects of a cellphone, for example, which is on its way a kind of tiny EM generator.


Maybe that's why it's in the middle of the Pacific on an uninhabited island?

3rd : The location of the island. Heating the atmosphere and keep control of what happens implies to contain the portion you're heating in a restrained area to prevent dispersion, which is impossible. Besides, the equator is the spot of convergence of all the winds, because this is where Earth runs the faster (932 Mph)


I'd say they're doing it somewhere. Maybe the equator is a good place to test because it becomes self-limiting with the winds.

4th : The island itself. Why would one set such an installation on a volcanic island, subject by nature to EM perturbations ?



Maybe they are taking advantage of the volcanic nature of the island in some way. You definitely wouldn't get a lot of nosy visitors..... :lol2:

OH, gosh, did anyone happen to notice the most obvious of mirror images?
Sawyer is the mirror image of the real Sawyer. Also Jack saying the same thing as Christian, that's why the Red Sox will never win the series.... OH, and Locke said something about the dog letting his mother off the hook. OH, and the gun dealer said something about looking into the eyes of a man you're about to kill and seeing the kind of man you really are. ;D

Maybe that's what the hatch is about?
Maybe that's why it's in the middle of the Pacific on an uninhabited island?

Isn't it made of metal ? Would be a poor shelter don't you think ?

I'd say they're doing it somewhere. Maybe the equator is a good place to test because it becomes self-limiting with the winds.

If they're doing it somewhere, it would be over a cold ground, to avoid the waste of energy. And the winds are just too much versatile to rely on them.

Maybe they are taking advantage of the volcanic nature of the island in some way. You definitely wouldn't get a lot of nosy visitors....

LOL, for sure !
But, same thing as the winds, it requires constancy.

Edited : Good catch on the previous mirror images !

I did notice the dog-sister mirror. *(Letting mom off the hook.) *I was looking for the color red this time around, but I only remember a big red shrimp now. *And kind of dull red furnishings in Sawyer's room.

I still wonder if that was a double con... he not only conned Sawyer into shooting Ducket, Ducket was in on the con. *A friend of Hibbs gave Sawyer the gun after all... and it was a strange thing to say after you're shot, "it'll come back around." *But as I have said before, I've read way too many murder mysteries and I trust nothing. * :laugh:

Crashover, I take your point about the heating part, but what about cooling? *They already have hot air, maybe they only need to cool a layer of air. *Or water. *(I also read up on some mirage experiments involving salt water and tap water, the density required was achieved that way.) *Maybe the hatch is a big old fridge. * :laugh: (I'm kidding.)

I had mentioned somewhere that I didn't recall Sawyer ever telling a lie, but he did in this episode -- he said he didn't wear cologne. *He doesn't lie about STDs, hookers or one-night stands, but he tries to lie about wearing cologne. * :laugh: *(Although he didn't dispute it when she said "yes you do!") *I thought that was funny. *(Off-topic, but funny.)

Crashover, I take your point about the heating part, but what about cooling?

Well it's the same problem, because of the winds. And the Earth is heating naturally (that's why it's a lovely place to live ;)), so you would need even more energy.

Maybe the hatch is a big old fridge.

:laugh:
Reminds me of a good joke I've just read on another thread :
What will happen when Locke opens the hatch ?
Locke looks into the hatch and sees some guy looking in a fridge, wearing a t-shirt and boxers. He pulls out a beer and closes the fridge door. The light goes out. Locke screams.

:roflmao:

I agree about Crash's point. I was just kind of thinking along the lines of nuclear testing I guess, and it may not be the same principle at all. Let the winds carry it/disperse it. It wasn't a smart thing with nuclear weapons either, but it was done. I guess they figured it was better not to have it all in one place. They never really figured out how to get rid of nuclear waste either. They still conducted the tests.

It wasn't a smart thing with nuclear weapons either, but it was done. I guess they figured it was better not to have it all in one place. They never really figured out how to get rid of nuclear waste either. They still conducted the tests.

Sadly true.
But we French can also do good things ! ;)

Am I talking about the wrong thing once again, Crashover? * :laugh: * Did you mean the solar wind theory? *(I meant the superior mirage theory.) * Anyway, they do occur on islands naturally, I came across a lot of photos on that, but I can see where it would be difficult to reproduce the effect *-- it would take a lot of energy to cool the water or air. *They'd have to be using some other way of bending light. *Well, I guess that's that then. *

Fridge door.... *:roflmao:

Oh, by the way, Kato, I loved the lake mirage post!

I think I keep getting mixed up on point as well, Kato.*

Crash the fridge door. :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:

Edited: It was me who was all mixed up about the point. I just confused you, I think, Kato.

Am I talking about the wrong thing once again, Crashover? :laugh: Did you mean the solar wind theory? (I meant the superior mirage theory.) Anyway, they do occur on islands naturally, I came across a lot of photos on that, but I can see where it would be difficult to reproduce the effect -- it would take a lot of energy to cool the water or air. They'd have to be using some other way of bending light. Well, I guess that's that then.

Fridge door.... :roflmao:


Well, the Solar wind theory and the HAARP work basically on the same principle, which is heating the atmosphere with particles. The difference is that HAARP is man made, and Solar wind is natural. So there's not really a confusion. ;)
Superior mirages that big, as you understood it, can only be made by nature so far.
There are several ways to bend the light :
- the optical approach, which we have discussed first
- the electric / magnetic approach, which we have just discussed
- the astro-physics approach, which the best examples are black holes : they are faster than light, thus they bend it, til absorbtion.

But none of these can be obtained by man's hand at a large scale.

Here's a handy link to understand the behavior of light :

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/light/u12l2c.html

Well, the Solar wind theory and the HAARP work basically on the same principle, which is heating the atmosphere with particles.

Well, that changes things for me, Crash. *The site that I was talking about, the Australian Air Force site, they weren't saying anything about doing tests in cold regions. *It was the same or similar technology unless I am mistaken. *There was a Sydney newspaper article about it too, and from what that article said, the plan was not to use it in a cold climate, but in a hot climate. *I believe it was actually not that far from the equator.

Maybe I miss the point again. I'm thinking it's time for me to go to bed! The way I've been burning the candle at both ends, it's a wonder I can construct an intelligible sentence. Then again, maybe I'm not and I'm just so tired I can't see it. :laugh:

It was about using radio waves or microwaves, so it must be pretty much the same technology. Could you post that link ? I guess I'm missing something.
It must have something to do with particles acceleration though, so I guess the climate only matters for the result.

Superior mirages that big, as you understood it, can only be made by nature so far.

Large ones like that, sure -- I understand that, and I understand that it would take a huge amount of energy to cool a layer of air, but the effects can be reproduced on a smaller scale in an aquarium using two solutions having different densities -- so, it's possible that (in TV land) someone could hit on a method of creating a deliberate mirage. *

Or, it's possible that the island has a natural mirage, but in that case someone would have had to figure that out in order to get to the island and then return with the hatch materials. *

But anyway, abandoning that for now... is there any other element of mystery to which we can apply mirrors -- or illusion, or a trick of the light, or anything to do with their light/color/mirrors theme? *

Now that you mention it Crashover, I guess we don't really know if the island affects ships. * According to Danielle, theirs crashed in a storm. *Unless electromagnetic fields can manipulate the weather, there is nothing in common with the plane crash there. *Maybe the island can be seen by and reached by boats. *But like Shootfire said, there isn't much hope of a boat just happening upon them.

I keep coming back to it too, but my question is, if it was a distress call as in she was hoping some passing ship would pick it up and respond, why was it worded the way it was? *It always sounded to me like she expected the receiver to know what she was talking about. *"Brennan has the key. *I'll try to make it to the Black Rock." *But that's another (long dead) thread. * :laugh:

Possible reasons it's still running:

1. *They can't change it back for some reason.
2. *To block outgoing signals and scare anyone who hears it.
3. *They don't know it's running.
4. *It's not still running -- they just pulled it out and played it so the Lostaways wouldn't pick up what's usually running.
5. *They're hoping it attracts someone who knows why Danielle is there and who is looking for her... they're using it as a trap.


It wasn't just that they were in a storm. Instruments failed. They didn't see the island it was dark.

DANIELLE ROUSSEAU: Our vessel was three days out of Tahiti when our instruments
malfunctioned. It was night. The storm ... the sounds ... the ship slammed
into rocks, ran aground, the hull breached beyond repair. So ... we made camp.
Dug out this temporary shelter. Temporary. Nearly two months we survived here.
Two months before --


The distress call. Danielle changed the numbers to her distress call. Maybe that is what whoever was in control of the radio tower wanted. A human distress call. She knows "The Others" control the tower, so she must have thought about turning her distress call off or changing it. What I get from Danielle is she realizes that she should not be rescued from the island neither should the Lostaways.

Ah right, I forgot about the instruments failing.* But if there was no storm to wreck the ship, they'd have either kept on cruising or made it to the island with a way to get off of it again, so the storm is a key factor.* So was it just bad luck, or some kind of pseudo-science weather manipulation?* *

What I get from Danielle is she realizes that she should not be rescued from the island neither should the Lostaways.

But she did beg for help in her distress call, so she'd had to have realized it after she recorded that and changed the message.* And there was still someone else alive at least at the point when she recorded it -- Brennan with the key.*

But that aside, I don't think she wants them to get off the island either.*

Ok, for some time it has been bothering me that Jack has used Locke's mantra, "Don't tell me what I can't do."* It also bothered me that Boone used Rose's line "I'm letting you off the hook."* Then there's the fact that Jack told Kate "everybody gets a new life on the island," and Locke said the same to Shannon.* Then, I got to thinking about White Rabbit.* When Locke is going out to look for water, Jack wants to go too.* Locke, however, tells Jack he needs to stay and finish what he started.* A leader has to know where he is going in order to lead.* In the end it is Jack who finds the water.* Same thing happened when they were looking for Charlie and Claire.* Locke wanted Jack to go back and be the doctor and let him be the tracker.* In the end it was Jack who found Charlie.* I guess what I'm getting at is, isn't this just a figurative mirror image?*

There have been an awful lot of references to mirror images within the context of the show.* There was Kate finding the pilot's wings and seeing the reflection of his body in the water.* There is, of course the song, La Mer which refers to silver reflections and changing reflections.* There is, of course, the reference to Alice in Wonderland/ Through the Looking Glass by way of White Rabbit.* I'm not sure if this is a spoiler so just to be on the safe side:

We know that one of the writers described the monster as a kind of reflection of yourself.


I have read in other threads that Ursa Major appeared to be the mirror image of itself in one episode.* I've read things about Jack's moving tatoo.* Wasn't there also something about the scar under Locke's eye appearing on one side of his face and then the other?* * It just seems to me we've been hit over the head with mirror image references, and those are just the literal ones.

Edited:* Oops.* Thanks Kato.
Edited:* Just wanted to give Sam Grant credit for pointing out some of the mirror images in that last paragraph.



Here's the big image that SO connects the Boone/Shannon image for me. An proves to me that it was on error. In Hearts & Minds there appears to be another one of the Continunity gliches. Boone is talking to Shannon before he goes off with Locke and his t-shirt has the chinese characters on it and then it doesn't. It is the same Chinese character shirt he has on in Locke's Dream. I got the standard "It's just a mistake." I think not.
http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=10055.0

Kato,

I can't wait to watch the show tonight and see if there is anything else we have missed in the mirror discussion.* It's almost time* Signing off for now.....


Actually I did see something and it reminded me of this post. Figurative mirrors:

Jack buried the marshal because he "needed to bury him".

Charlie buried Ethan. I thought I remembered him saying that he needed to do it, but I didn't catch it last night.

OK, they aren't exact mirror images, but I thought I'd bring it up.

The site that I was talking about, the Australian Air Force site, they weren't saying anything about doing tests in cold regions. *It was the same or similar technology unless I am mistaken.

I'm still trying to locate the newspaper article for you. *I've done so much googling that it's not in my history anymore. * ;) *Still, I don't understand what the purpose would be of developing such technology when the geographical limitations would seem to make it pointless. *On top of that, wouldn't superheating the ionosphere lead to extreme melting incidents at the polar ice caps? * Just trying to imagine the big picture here. * *:-\

OK, they aren't exact mirror images, but I thought I'd bring it up.

Jerseygirl, didn't Jack do it alone? Charlie let Hurley help, right? There's the with help/alone thing again. Perhaps it is an exact mirror image.


I think not.


Sam Grant, obviously, I think you are right. *There are just too many incidents for all of this to be continuity errors. *It just doesn't add up....or it does add up....another mirror image! *:o *Whoever was in charge of such things would surely lose their job.

In fact, it occured to me that maybe the whole locke/compass issue was about mirror images rather than magnetism, one day he doesn't need the compass, another day he does. *Or, the compass working one day, another day it's not. *Did we ever actually hear the degree of the discrepancy? *Could we tell from the directions they were looking/pointing? *Perhaps the poles were reversed.

But anyway, abandoning that for now... is there any other element of mystery to which we can apply mirrors -- or illusion, or a trick of the light, or anything to do with their light/color/mirrors theme?

Kato, there's still the mirror world idea. I think you read the N.E.R.D. post about being in two places at once?

Also, the effect of mirrors on light...I keep thinking about that experiment with the mirrored sphere. If you could put a light source inside it, the light would intensify with each reflection. Now, think about all the times color has seemed to be intensified in the show, Hurley's yellow SUV, Locke's red car, the red folder, Claire's flashbacks being brightly lit, Boone and Shannon in their tryst, half dark/half light.....is there something in there? I dunno, it's something to discuss, I think. I read something about a theory that things that happen in the mirror world happen first, and are reflected back to this world. Maybe something is wrong in one world or the other. Things are happening that are supposed to happen, and things are happening that are not. Say, Locke is supposed to find Anthony Cooper and all. That would explain all the destiny references....but in the scenes where the colors seem muted or dimly lit, these are things that have not happened in the mirror world. In effect, the things that are going wrong are causing unintended consequences. Maybe Boone wasn't supposed to die, and now the world is in chaos? Not trying to go to chaos theory here... :laugh:

After rereading the mirror paragraph I have a question -- wasn't the White Rabbit in Alice in Wonderland, not Through the Looking Glass?* Or was it in both?* I loved those books but they have kind of blurred together in my mind.*

Mirror worlds... hmmm.* (Great finds, Sam Grant!)* It drives me nuts that we have to wonder if something is a continuity error or deliberate.* I think that any and all continuity errors ought to be pointed out as such right away by the show, to save us the headache.* *:w00t:* *It's not like we don't have enough mind-bending stuff going on already.* *:laugh:* The main thing that makes me think the reversed stars are an error is that none of the characters have mentioned it.* *And I realize they're pretty accepting of whatever information is presented to them, but you'd think that would at least get Sayid's attention.* ("The stars are reversed in the sky."/ "What are you getting at?"/* "My eyes are defective.")

Have we ever seen exactly how Sayid knows they're on the equator?* Because I would assume it's easy to figure out -- the sunset would be at the same every day -- but you'd need a few weeks of careful watching and timing to confirm that, I'd think.* Is there some other way of telling?*

After rereading the mirror paragraph I have a question -- wasn't the White Rabbit in Alice in Wonderland, not Through the Looking Glass? Or was it in both? I loved those books but they have kind of blurred together in my mind.


Through the Looking Glass was a sequel to Alice in Wonderland, a continuation of the dream. Hence the blurring of the two stories... ;) In that way, yes the White Rabbit was in the story. Literally, no, the White Rabbit was not IN Through the Looking Glass. It is my opinion/recollection that it opened with a voice saying to accept this tale as a remembrance of times past....not quoting here. My perception was that it was the voice of the White Rabbit, but perceptions vary. :) I read both in childhood, so perhaps someone with a more recent experience will chime in here.

The main thing that makes me think the reversed stars are an error is that none of the characters have mentioned it.

I don't think it's a constant state. Like all the other mirror moments, I think it was a moment. I hope that makes sense. :) I don't think the lostaways gaze at the stars every night and see reversed constellations. In fact, if I were sitting on the beach with a million things running through my mind, would I notice a reversed constellation? I doubt it. I see it as remarkably like this forum. We're all watching the exact same thing, but getting different things from it depending on what we are focused on.


Have we ever seen exactly how Sayid knows they're on the equator? Because I would assume it's easy to figure out -- the sunset would be at the same every day -- but you'd need a few weeks of careful watching and timing to confirm that, I'd think. Is there some other way of telling?

There's another thread that may or may not answer that for you. I'll try to find it again and post a link. Actually it's a fairly new thread, shouldn't be hard to find. I think it may be Locke and directions, or something to that effect.

Ah, thanks for all the info.* :)

In the first book she went down the rabbit hole, so I just wondered if there was anything more relevant about that than there was about going through a looking glass.* (They said there would be several mysteries, so it's possible that not all things tie together.* It would be really clever to have a mirror theme going and then throw in something that would seem to fit the mirror theme, but doesn't actually.)

So there might be some visual-distortion factor to the island that makes the stars appear to be reversed, and (does it follow?) makes the sun appear to be in a different place in the sky than it actually is?* (Much the way it does every single night at sunset, since its appearance on the horizon line is -- at one point -- actually a mirage?)*

I wonder if we'll ever find out whether it's actually an island.*

And off topic, but I don't want to start a new thread for it since it's just one question -- what would it take to build that hatch, do you think?* Heavy construction equipment, or could a thing that big be lowered into the hole some other way?* I'm just wondering how many people would have had to be involved.*

And off topic, but I don't want to start a new thread for it since it's just one question -- what would it take to build that hatch, do you think? Heavy construction equipment, or could a thing that big be lowered into the hole some other way? I'm just wondering how many people would have had to be involved.

Hmmm...it is a good question. Naturally, heavy equipment would be the best way to do it. One or two people to operate the equipment, though, is all I think would be required. The question for me, is how would you get the equipment onto the island. Is there a harbor? Maybe it's just the limits of my knowledge, but, you can't bring heavy equipment in with a small boat.... :) Can you airlift equipment like that? It would have to be a mighty big plane. Is there an airport? Is it really an island? You just opened a can of worms, I think, Kato. I suppose it could be lowered into the hole by less efficient means, but it still begs the question....How did it get on the island?

I just read a post by Isabellove in the lists thread. Thought some of you might be interested. I'll just quote it here.

Quote from: duckyislost on Today at 09:28:49 AM
I can keep it going offline if people still think it is trivial. But frankly I don't think its any less relevant than the box list.

I have totally revised my opinion, after reading the plot of the comic book Walt was reading. It is all about changing into the other person: "The younger pair of the quartet decide to go back through one of the portals and fight the aliens on their home turf. When they arrive, something weird happened, they end up in each other's costumes, thinking they're the other."

Now you went and started it Kato. *You opened the box.

There are quite a few questions that cannot be answered at this time. *We don't know what it is made out of but we do know that the window is not ordinary glass or it would have broken. *Is this an individual pod or does it lead to an underground network? *Where does it lead to? *Is there a connection with the cable that comes from the sea? *How long has it been on the Island?

As you can see, if you didn't open the box you definitely opened a can of worms :lol2:.

As far as mirror images was Jin's mentioned. *He beats a man in front of his family in Korea to save his life and then takes a beating in front of his wife for something he didn't do.

Oh, nice catch LBL!* The mirrors are stacking up.

They're still holding back further information on Rose, do you get the feeling that her backstory will be a lynchpin?* There must be some reason that she's one of the featured survivors but we get almost nothing about her.* *:laugh:

The question for me, is how would you get the equipment onto the island.* Is there a harbor?* Maybe it's just the limits of my knowledge, but, you can't bring heavy equipment in with a small boat....

Gee, I didn't even think of that part.* The hatch itself is big enough that somebody didn't just send it over on a raft.* And it had to be moved across rough terrain, and then the hole dug, and the hatch put into position...* assuming it has solid sides, and it looked like it did (I mean, it was't just a lid on a dirt hole).*

I have totally revised my opinion, after reading the plot of the comic book Walt was reading.

Can someone tell me where to find this?

Isabellove's post was in the Lists thread. She provided a link about the comic book as well. Here's a link to that thread.\

http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=13717.0

I really see Rose being important at some point, maybe not a main character, but a pivotal one.

Question, what are the differences between magnetic mirror machines. I know that at some point in history, scientists were trying to use them to discover a means for creating cold fusion. I think that was abandoned in the 50's right? Still I think there's another kind of magnetic mirror machine, or that it is used for a different purpose. Anybody?

Thanks for the link, Shootfire!* *Very interesting!

Do you know what this means --

These issues take place around the time of GL #83.

(I mean, the GL #83 part.)* *I'm just asking as a grasping-straws thing... thinking about Locke's partner, GL-12.* * :laugh:

Can't help you with the magnetic mirror machines, that's over my point head.* :/

GL = Green Lantern?

Magnetic mirror machine is kind of a moot point, as I finally get what Crashover has been talking about.....duh!!!! :lol2:

Anyway, from what I'm getting, the mirror would have to be at the pole, in the cold climate. The effect, however, could take place elsewhere. From what I have read, and I do remember this, in November 1991 the aurora borealis was visible as far south as Texas. Some say this had some relationship to tests/HAARP. I don't think there's indesputable proof, but the theory is compelling.

*smacking myself** Duh... Green Lantern.* :laugh:* Well, now I wonder what Green Lantern #12 was about.* (Because I'm insane.)

I don't totally rule it out that there isn't some way of creating cold air on that island, because those polar bears looked mighty healthy.* Although technically, according to what I read about them, running like that in the heat would pretty much kill them.* So are they special heat-resistant polar bears or do they have a cold habitat somewhere?* It could go either way, I guess.* Or... neither way.

I am not still getting why the superior mirage can only happen in a very cold climate -- isn't it based on a cooler layer of air below a warmer one?* Cooler is a relative term, 75 degrees is cooler than 90 degrees, but 75 degrees isn't cool. Oh well, don't do my work for me, I'll bust out of lazy mode and Google it further.*

If GL-83 is the reference the the series number, then maybe GL-12 refers to another in the series. * I see the GL-12 would be the comic entitled The Master Plan. * :)

I am not still getting why the superior mirage can only happen in a very cold climate -- isn't it based on a cooler layer of air below a warmer one?

I, at least, am not talking about the superior mirage. I don't think anyone has any argument with that one. It's good.

Nice catch on the GL-12. Thanks for the comic book reference, I did a search on the site and there is a lot of discussion.

I may be seeing things or just plain crazy but when Walt and Michael are trapped in the tree branches and the Polar Bear keeps lunging at them, I could swear I saw cold breath comming out of the Polar Bear's mouth.* You know how you can see your breath when it's really cold.

Can someone tell me if I'm crazy and should get that referral to the therapist now or hold off till later.

Crash, maybe that's your green in the breakroom scene of Walkabout.

Nice catch on the GL-12.* Thanks for the comic book reference, I did a search on the site and there is a lot of discussion.

I may be seeing things or just plain crazy but when Walt and Michael are trapped in the tree branches and the Polar Bear keeps lunging at them, I could swear I saw cold breath comming out of the Polar Bear's mouth.* You know how you can see your breath when it's really cold.

Can someone tell me if I'm crazy and should get that referral to the therapist now or hold off till later.

No, you're not crazy. I think I remember seeing that too. Another fimiliar thing. The trees that Walt was hiding in looked an awful lot like the trees Shannon and Boone were hiding in. I wanted to say that for awhile but kept forgetting.

Mirrors in Jack's Dad's room ,Isabellove, VoodoTV WR Part 2 Jack's Dad's room starts at 050605. Here's something strange.
The hotel manager said the maid said that Jack's dad hadn't slept in his room for 3 days. The maids come in and clean. Why are there 4 dirty glasses around the room? The broken cigarette, she would have cleaned that, even if she didn't touch anything else and the Newspaper is on the bed. She probably would have folded that up. Put that together with the fact that Jack's Dad was clean shaven when Jack finds goes to see him in the morgue, there are cigarettes in Jack's dads room and we have never seen him smoke, I've said before that I think Jack's Dad met up with Sawyer again, maybe ladies were involved? 4 glasses? A thought.

I've had a feeling that there was more to the Sawyer Christian connection than what we were shown. For a while I even thought that Sawyer had hit Christian with a bottle causing his death but they say he died of a heart attack. Maybe too much partying Sawyer style.

Shootfire, You got me thinking on that comic book. It seems odd that things in the comic book are materializing on the Island. Polar Bears, Hatch etc. Now was the comic book there before Flight 815 crashed or was it debris from the crash. Do we have to put all the reading material together? Lord of the flies, Alice in wonderland, A wrinkle in time, Watership Down, The comic Book. Is there a common thread in them or a mirror image?

It was been too many years for me to remember.

walt says he just found it

we don't really know if it's from the plane or not

Michael

The comic's in Spanish. Do you read Spanish?

Walt

No. I found it.

Hi CAR,

Nice to see you on the thread, my friend. Yes they do find it on the beach, yet we don't know how it got there. It has to much significance to just be a coincidence.

Well, call me crazy, but.....Locke had a flag in his room, the Spanish Burgundy Cross? *What if he's a big Green Lantern fan. *If he speaks Spanish, or has been somewhere that Spanish is spoken, mightn't he have picked up a comic in Spanish? *Perhaps the fact that Walt is identifying with the comic, studying it in relation to his surroundings, is the reason Locke thinks he is different. *Walt sees things that others are oblivious to?

Hey! ***waves** how ya doing! *This is true, leans in that direction big time.

Great point, Shootfire.

Locke also worked in a toy store.

You're right, all that debris shouldn't be in a room cleaned by a maid. *A maid might leave behind an unsmoked cigarette -- or one smoked halfway, or a broken one -- but she'd clean the ashtray and put it back in the clean ashtray. And the glasses definitely would have been picked up and replaced with new ones. *I'm not sure about the newspaper, but no maid would leave a room littered with dirty glasses. *So good catch -- he was in there after the maids cleaned, presumably after they cleaned the room and before Jack got there.

Re the comic book: *I don't understand their numbering system, I've dredged up different titles for the same number?

Like:

Green Lantern No. 83
April-May 1971
Story: “And a Child Shall Destroy Them”

(That wasn't the title of Walt's comic book, was it? *I thought it was "Faster Friends.")

He knows so much it wouldn't surprise me he knows a bit of Spanish and who knows what else. *He looks like he has such a varied background with all kinds of cultural experiences or else he spent a lot of time reading during a possible rehab? *:)

it was faster friends

Not to get to far off topic and I promise to end with something on topic.

Michael has twice been told that Walt is different, by Brian and Locke, *He was surprised and angered by it both times. *Is it possible that Michael was different when he was younger?

Okay back on topic. *During my searches today I found what could be another mirror. *Michael burns Walt's comic book, Walt burns Michael's raft.

*waves back to Car*

It did look like it angered him. Could be that he was different or maybe he thinks it's malarky and doesn't want walt to be considered different/special because of the sterotype that comes with that label

Or maybe Walt was strange as a baby too. There's that "after all we've been through" line or something like that (that's not verbatim).

that's right creepy line that was

You're right, all that debris shouldn't be in a room cleaned by a maid. *A maid might leave behind an unsmoked cigarette -- or one smoked halfway, or a broken one -- but she'd clean the ashtray and put it back in the clean ashtray. And the glasses definitely would have been picked up and replaced with new ones. *I'm not sure about the newspaper, but no maid would leave a room littered with dirty glasses. *So good catch -- he was in there after the maids cleaned, presumably after they cleaned the room and before Jack got there.

Re the comic book: *I don't understand their numbering system, I've dredged up different titles for the same number?

Like:

Green Lantern No. 83
April-May 1971
Story: “And a Child Shall Destroy Them”

(That wasn't the title of Walt's comic book, was it? *I thought it was "Faster Friends.")



Back a long time ago there was a thread with all the comic book stuff in it. What it said in Spanish, everything. Some dead thread somewhere I guess I'll go looking.

http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=2378.msg78216#msg78216* Good to read through.

http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=4287.0 All to do with the comic
http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=1736.0
http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=4788.0

Look at the Long Lost List for all the books. There's Willie Wonka and A Little Princess which are dvd's but also books. The golden ticket (Hurley)

Great point, Shootfire. *


Thanks LBL, I'm just trying to flesh out the idea that the GL -12 codename (Walkabout) may be related to green lantern. *Crashover has already pointed out the dominance of the color green in that breakroom scene long ago. *It seems to fit.


Sam Grant, this is just stream of consciousness, but it's all juvenile literature. *Many of the characters have been shown in, or made reference to events in their childhoods. *Walt is a child. *There is now a new child on the island. *Alex went missing as a child. *I think there may have been something about a mirror in A Wrinkle in Time, not sure. *Doesn't Meg look into a mirror and call herself a monster? *

Re the comic book: *I don't understand their numbering system, I've dredged up different titles for the same number?



Aren't there different volumes? *I think Walt's comic was from Volume 3 but I could be wrong. *I'm pretty sure it's a more recent one than the 70s. *I think I read Walt's was from the 90s forward. *Interesting thought though, what if we were to look for one that Locke might have read as a child....e-viiiil ;D......Depending on how old Locke is, may that's the right one....I dunno.....

Thanks LBL, I'm just trying to flesh out the idea that the GL -12 codename (Walkabout) may be related to green lantern. *Crashover has already pointed out the dominance of the color green in that breakroom scene long ago. *It seems to fit.


Sam Grant, this is just stream of consciousness, but it's all juvenile literature. *Many of the characters have been shown in, or made reference to events in their childhoods. *Walt is a child. *There is now a new child on the island. *Alex went missing as a child. *I think there may have been something about a mirror in A Wrinkle in Time, not sure. *Doesn't Meg look into a mirror and call herself a monster? *

Aren't there different volumes? *I think Walt's comic was from Volume 3 but I could be wrong. *I'm pretty sure it's a more recent one than the 70s. *I think I read Walt's was from the 90s forward. *Interesting thought though, what if we were to look for one that Locke might have read as a child....e-viiiil ;D......Depending on how old Locke is, may that's the right one....I dunno.....



Major things happend in their adolescence. Alot had to do with death. Prepuberty.

OK another thought. I keep coming back to the games and books we have in the episodes. All Young adult.
Could something very traumatic have happened to all the Lostaways prepuberty? We know a few have.
Sawyer
Locke
Walt

We don't know what happened to Shannon's mother, because her dad married Boone's Mother. We don't know what happened to Boone's father.

http://www.thefuselage.com/threaded/index.php?topic=11688.0 Primary connection has to do with color but all the toy are the same colors, all the books young adult. It's right there......just out of reach

Crash, maybe that's your green in the breakroom scene of Walkabout.


Yes, it's another green stuff, when it comes to Locke's flashbacks, all is about green and red (can or can't do)

About the comic, I tend to believe it's Hurley's, because he's latino.

About the comic, I tend to believe it's Hurely's, because he's latino.

Also quite possible, good one Crash. Wasn't Hurley watching cartoons in Numbers?

The Lord of the Flies mirrors society. Watership Down mirrors the lostaways. These are figurative mirrors, but maybe......

Wasn't Hurley watching cartoons in Numbers?

He was zapping to find the lotto program.
But he likes superheroes, so he might like comics.
"Wow, it was like......a Jedi moment !"

My goof -- I thought that was the issue # but I misread the sentence, which was,

These issues take place around the time of GL #83.