Okay, where do we stand after tonight. Kate was wicked uncomfortable in the cafeteria scene. But she handled pretty well, on the whole. James and Jules are very much together, but worried about it falling apart. Jack has stepped back a bit and certainly doesn't seem to be putting pressure on Kate. In fact, I'd say he seems to understand that she's uncomfortable about James with Jules.

I really liked how Juliet said that she was glad she didn't have to tell Kate, because she wasn't sure how to say it without it sounding like she was asking her to back off. Which is cool... b/c she got to tell her to back off ;) but in a different way. But make it clear that James and Kate can still be friends.

Without too much shippery annoyingness, I hope we can debate the interesting scenes from tonight's episode!

Sawyer seems all in when it comes to Dharmaville and his life with Juliet, tonight's episode made that very clear. We started with Juliet expressing concern that it was over and the whole remainder of the episode was Sawyer trying to do whatever it took to hold it together.

I think the overall word I would use is "awkward." Sawyer is definitely committed to his life with Juliet, which is nice to see. But it's understandable why both Sawyer and Juliet are very wary about everything falling apart around them. Kate's awkward, but like Jack, she's sort of sitting back and letting things happen around her. She's certainly not making any moves or anything.

Their interactions are relatively awkward, but it's not some huge drama either (which is a relief!) Sawyer and Juliet are trying to hold on to their life, Jack and Kate are just trying to figure out what they're supposed to be doing now.

Yeah, that's what I saw too, Zoe. Certainly the conversation with Sawyer and Kate could have been very interesting, but it was cut short. Needless to say, I think it'll be awhile (maybe the next Kate episode?) before we find out what Kate's reason for returning to the island was. I'm a Skater, and I don't think it was Sawyer, but I'm sure some people think that... it's really hard to know what she would have said, or if she would have even told him.

I think it'll be awhile (maybe the next Kate episode?) before we find out what Kate's reason for returning to the island was. I'm a Skater, and I don't think it was Sawyer, but I'm sure some people think that...

I'm putting my money on her reason being Aaron. I think he is way too much on her mind for Kate to be worried about her love life right now.

Needless to say, I think it'll be awhile (maybe the next Kate episode?) before we find out what Kate's reason for returning to the island was.Yeah, that was one of the biggest things I was looking forward to in this episode. :rolleyes: Who knows if / when they'll get back to that.

I agree that she was talking about Aaron, actually. Even though she clearly felt awkward about the James/Juliet thing, she seems pretty distracted and distanced from everyone there. I think it mainly has to do with whatever happened with Aaron.

I think Juliet was waiting for Sawyer to say, "It doesn't change us." or something like that after she says:

"So this is over. All this. Us. Playing house." to paraphrase.

Sawyer said he's going to take care of it, but he didn't say, "Hey Juliet (or whatever pet name he has for her. Kate is freckles...or has Juliet warranted a pet name?) whatever changes cause they're back, we deal with it. We." And then he gives her a knowing, reassuring look.

That would define the relationships a bit more and it looks like they want to keep the quadrangle/triangle final pairings still up in the air, but that's what it seemed like she was looking for in that moment. Reassurance on them, as a couple.

One of few worthwhile scenes in the episode in my opinion.

Sorry to disagree with ya ladies, but it doesn't look to me like Sawyer was "all in" with Juliet at all...I'd say that he just said that, but he's feeling the inevitable pull, towards Kate, already. But I doubt anyone was denying that. :)

As for the Sayid scene...I thought Sawyer was hoping for the best at that point, probably quite relieved that Oldham went with the truth syrum rather than some form of torture? I doubt he was about to let him die.

Sawyer seems all in when it comes to Dharmaville and his life with Juliet, tonight's episode made that very clear. We started with Juliet expressing concern that it was over and the whole remainder of the episode was Sawyer trying to do whatever it took to hold it together.

Yeah, Sawyer seemed all in, for sure. In fact, he was SO "all in," that he was willing to sacrifice Sayid's safety to protect his life there with Juliet. I think anyone still questioning Sawyer's feeling for Juliet are grasping at straws in a major way.

I also think Juliet's concern was more about their whole existence being compromised with the re-appearance of four of the O6, not so much that Sawyer was going to leave her now that Kate was back.

Yeah, Sawyer seemed all in, for sure. In fact, he was SO "all in," that he was willing to sacrifice Sayid's safety to protect his life there with Juliet. I think anyone still questioning Sawyer's feeling for Juliet are grasping at straws in a major way.

I also think Juliet's concern was more about their whole existence being compromised with the re-appearance of four of the O6, not so much that Sawyer was going to leave her now that Kate was back.

True. Juliet certainly didn't seem threatened by Kate in their scene together. It's kind of awkward for all of them, and Sawyer does care about Kate to some extent, but his loyalty this episode was to the past three years and Juliet. When he said that line to Jack about them being back one day and buses are on fire, I think he was wishing they hadn't come back at all.

I also think Juliet's concern was more about their whole existence being compromised with the re-appearance of four of the O6, not so much that Sawyer was going to leave her now that Kate was back.

Oh, I think Juliet's sadness at the window was all about her and Sawyer - after all, they are watching Jack and Kate walk out of a cabin (and what's up with that? They aren't bunking in together already are they?), and her words pretty much said that. Sawyer's response, while gently holding her face was nice, but could be interpreted as addressing only their overall life here with Dharma and not specifically them as a couple. And Juliet goes with that flow and talks about what if Sayid tells them who he is. So it's ambiguous, like every other triangle scene.

So between this scene and last episode's conversation between them as Sawyer's gathering clothes, they're sort of keeping their worries general and not about Kate, even though I'm sure that's what Juliet is really sad about.

Sorry to disagree with ya ladies, but it doesn't look to me like Sawyer was "all in" with Juliet at all...I'd say that he just said that, but he's feeling the inevitable pull, towards Kate, already.

Are you talking about him going to her house?

I'm probably wrong, but I thought he was going to Jack's house.
It seemed to me he debated going to Kate's house, only to change his mind and walk in the opposite direction, to the house across the way (Jack's).

Didn't he seem surprised when Kate answered the door?
And she looked behind her and closed the door behind her.

Did Jack come out of the house after her?
Ahhh, must go re-watch.

I think Sawyer's worried about it slipping all away on him. They managed to slip in another prolonged look at Kate in this episode. We heard Juliet voice concern over it, she has an idea what Kate meant to Sawyer.

Sawyer may be kidding himself at this point that seeing Kate again didn't stir some old embers, but I feel like that's implied with the different looks exchanged, putting the lei on her and then handing the other two off to Jack and Hurley.

While I would like to hope for the sack of believabilty that Sawyer will work through seeing Kate again and come to the confirmation that he does, infact, love Juliet more, these romances have been mishandled by the writers in the past.

To have Sawyer say in that scene with Juliet looking out the window, "hey we're not going to change", or "It's still me and you. I got your back." is what I think Juliet was looking for. To that from a creative standpoint would take the tension and mystery out of the quadrangle, so I can see why they didn't. It would have given the quadrangle a pretty defined pairing.

I'm hoping Sawyer and Kate realize they're different people than when they knew each other last, and take seeing each other again as a way to say goodbye to the romantic past they had.

Sure feelings are going to be stirred up again when the man/woman you thought was dead/gone returns into your world, but after three years and growing as a person, are either of them the same people that loved each other? I think they have to work that out that they are not.

Oh, and what a misleading promo! ABC spliced Juliet into saying "I'm telling you to stay away" with cat claws almost showing, and it was just the opposite! She actually very sweetly said, "That’s a relief. I wasn’t sure how to do it without sounding like I was telling you to stay away." And I think Kate's smile was genuine. Thank God for no catfights, mud wrestling, or snipping off each other's pigtails. I was so expecting the writers to go there.

Oh, and what a misleading promo! ABC spliced Juliet into saying "I'm telling you to stay away" with cat claws almost showing, and it was just the opposite! She actually very sweetly said, "That’s a relief. I wasn’t sure how to do it without sounding like I was telling you to stay away." And I think Kate's smile was genuine. Thank God for no catfights, mud wrestling, or snipping off each other's pigtails. I was so expecting the writers to go there.

Haha, I know! It's amazing how they can take a completely innocent line like that and twist it to mean the exact opposite. Just another lesson to never trust promos!

But I was really glad they didn't go the cat fight route either.

Oh, and what a misleading promo! ABC spliced Juliet into saying "I'm telling you to stay away" with cat claws almost showing, and it was just the opposite! She actually very sweetly said, "That’s a relief. I wasn’t sure how to do it without sounding like I was telling you to stay away." And I think Kate's smile was genuine. Thank God for no catfights, mud wrestling, or snipping off each other's pigtails. I was so expecting the writers to go there.

Agreed! I was relieved as well.
I was really disappointed after week's promo seemed to predict mudfight round 2.

Did anyone else find Sayid's childhood flashback as Eko 2.0?

Here's hoping the writers don't start recycling storylines. Especially with the blasted quadrangle!
Enough, please.

While I would like to hope for the sack of believabilty that Sawyer will work through seeing Kate again and come to the confirmation that he does, infact, love Juliet more, these romances have been mishandled by the writers in the past.

To have Sawyer say in that scene with Juliet looking out the window, "hey we're not going to change", or "It's still me and you. I got your back." is what I think Juliet was looking for. To that from a creative standpoint would take the tension and mystery out of the quadrangle, so I can see why they didn't. It would have given the quadrangle a pretty defined pairing.

True - the writers always seem to rewrite expected scenes to be purposefully ambiguous or interrupted. It makes for a lot of letdowns when people do just want some resolution.


I'm hoping Sawyer and Kate realize they're different people than when they knew each other last, and take seeing each other again as a way to say goodbye to the romantic past they had.

Sure feelings are going to be stirred up again when the man/woman you thought was dead/gone returns into your world, but after three years and growing as a person, are either of them the same people that loved each other? I think they have to work that out that they are not.

I hope so too. I think that could make for some interesting angsty and even emotionally romantic scenes (but short of spoon licking or cage sex) for Kate and Sawyer without destroying Juliet and Sawyer.

Stupid fiery van! I wanted to hear what Kate was going to say! I think she was actually going to tell him why she came back (Aaron, I'm assuming), but maybe that's my own wishful thinking. Stupid, stupid van!

Oh, I think Juliet's sadness at the window was all about her and Sawyer - after all, they are watching Jack and Kate walk out of a cabin (and what's up with that? They aren't bunking in together already are they?), and her words pretty much said that. Sawyer's response, while gently holding her face was nice, but could be interpreted as addressing only their overall life here with Dharma and not specifically them as a couple. And Juliet goes with that flow and talks about what if Sayid tells them who he is. So it's ambiguous, like every other triangle scene.

So between this scene and last episode's conversation between them as Sawyer's gathering clothes, they're sort of keeping their worries general and not about Kate, even though I'm sure that's what Juliet is really sad about.

See, I thought it was more of, "We're going to make you think this is about her and Sawyer, but if you let her finish her thought, you'll see it's not."

But I'm all over the idea that maybe Jack and Kate are already shacking up. It hadn't occurred to me, but everyone on LJ is discussing it.

Did anyone else find Sayid's childhood flashback as Eko 2.0?



Oh, definitely, this was a shoutout to the Eko-and-Yemi storyline. Except this time it was the LITTLE brother who "saved" his big brother. As a look into Sayid's mysterious childhood it was maddeningly minimal, but it did provide an interesting insight.

I didn't get the impression that Jack and Kate were shacking up together at all. In fact she still seems distant to him. I also feel that Kate is baffled by her reaction to Sawyer, but will respect his relationship with Juliet, partly because she has her own agenda, and partly to show us that she has matured. I think taking care of whatever is going on with her and Aaron is foremost in her thoughts. And I think Juliet is precious to Sawyer and he will try very hard to honor her because she is so wonderful and he knows it. She is the best thing that ever happened to him and he really loves her, even with his confusion about Kate's return. And Jack, well to me Jack doesnt seem to be a part of the quadrangle at all. He seems to be very contemplative and waiting for whatever his destiny is to happen. He's been really pretty much in the background lately, with an occassional foray into action.

And, as torn as I am by this, a part of me still, even though I love Juliet and Sawyer together, wants Sawyer and Kate to start kissing passionately and fall to the ground making mad passionate love and bringing back that wonderful chemistry they had together. I really am mixed-up about the triangle right now. Darn writers.

While I would like to hope for the sack of believabilty that Sawyer will work through seeing Kate again and come to the confirmation that he does, infact, love Juliet more, these romances have been mishandled by the writers in the past.This would not be believable to me, I have watched 4 plus seasons of Sawyer and Kate's love, not just regular love, they have written a time and space kind of love as far as I'm concerned.

I'm hoping Sawyer and Kate realize they're different people than when they knew each other last, and take seeing each other again as a way to say goodbye to the romantic past they had.
She has already done this with Jack. She settled for Jack because Sawyer was lost to her. This is now Kate and Sawyer's chance, they had years with other people they settled on, now they are being given a second chance finally with each other after some maturity.


Sure feelings are going to be stirred up again when the man/woman you thought was dead/gone returns into your world, but after three years and growing as a person, are either of them the same people that loved each other? I think they have to work that out that they are not. You hope they won't. I hope they will, especially after all the investment in them by the writer's as the main romance on this show.

ETA:

To have Sawyer and Juliet as an item, clearly defined for future episodes, would allow them to show Juliet or Sawyer going to the extreme for the other. Or allow them to portray a very heartfelt death or tragedy. By keeping up with the ambiguity and smoldering romantic tension, they lose out on that Love will find a way/All I need is love drama they could bring to the table, for lack of better terms.

They're doing this with Kate and Sawyer.

Agreed! I was relieved as well.


Did anyone else find Sayid's childhood flashback as Eko 2.0?


I don't know about Eko 2.0. Seemed more like the pilot idea for Eko's brother episode. While Eko's episode was good and moving, Sayid's was brief and a waste of minutes.

Nothing too poignant about Sayid stepping in to save his brother from having to kill....a chicken. Sorry I didn't feel it.

To keep this post on topic :biggrin:, the flaming van was one of the few surprises in the episode. Not a welcomed surprise either. I thought we were finally going to get an answer on motivation, at least from Kate. Hurley's motivation is still in the dark as well.

I agree it would have been Claire/Aaron related, but it led you to believe it was about her possibly still having feelings for Sawyer.

Would he have professed his love back if she had initiated? We'll never know.

What's disappointing is that TPTB are missing out on potential drama/tension/emotion by not defining the quadrangles pairings.

To know who loves who and to then put half of each partnership in danger, while the other half struggles to save or help their mate, that could pack some emotional wallop. To have the characters running around with their hearts on their sleaves.

To have Sawyer and Juliet as an item, clearly defined for future episodes, would allow them to show Juliet or Sawyer going to the extreme for the other. Or allow them to portray a very heartfelt death or tragedy. By keeping up with the ambiguity and smoldering romantic tension, they lose out on that Love will find a way/All I need is love drama they could bring to the table, for lack of better terms.

You can't show Sawyer in a bad situation, overcoming survial/escape odds by using his love for Juliet as motivation. And that goes for Juliet and Kate and Jack. And I think those are scenes that could be great.

Whatever the pairings will end up, get there already and focus on show the feelings between those two people. I think there's good and deeper story telling to be found in doing that.

I think Kate's reaction to what Juliet has to say about each of the men is pretty telling. It shows who she's really in love with and the intensity of those feelings.

Kate was fine with the Juliet/Sawyer relationship just as she told Juliet. Comparing two scenarios: when Juliet talks to her about her relationship with Sawyer, Kate smiles and says that it's fine. When Juliet talked to Kate about her relationship with Jack in Season 3 and how Kate had broken Jack's heart and not to go back for him because he didn't want her, Kate proceeded to whip the snot out of Juliet and ended up dislocating her shoulder. See the difference? :biggrin:

i know i'm opening a can of worms, but what else am i good for?:rolleyes:

the thing that struck me most about the juliet at the window scene, which i must admit, she did beautifully and looked beautiful as well, was the fact that the bacon was frying up and when sawyer brought it to her attention, she said,"oh, i forgot". now if anyone has been or knows someone that's preggers, that's one of the symptoms. trailing off, forgetting things, spacing out. i know, i know, i'm not saying that she IS pregnant, i'm saying that it was the first thing i thought of. of course, then they went into the scene and i understood what she was worried about and what she was thinking. i've kind of pushed it to the back of my mind, but we are discussing the scene.

merch, i agree that it was a sweet scene, but sawyer was one step away from being convincing that his love is for juliet and only.

i think that next week we will get more conversation between sawyer and kate regarding why she's back because this is her episode. kate centric, baby!
hopefully, finally, some answers. but i doubt fullfilling enough, right?

I think Kate's reaction to what Juliet has to say about each of the men is pretty telling. It shows who she's really in love with and the intensity of those feelings.

Kate was fine with the Juliet/Sawyer relationship just as she told Juliet. Comparing two scenarios: when Juliet talks to her about her relationship with Sawyer, Kate smiles and says that it's fine. When Juliet talked to Kate about her relationship with Jack in Season 3 and how Kate had broken Jack's heart and not to go back for him because he didn't want her, Kate proceeded to whip the snot out of Juliet and ended up dislocating her shoulder. See the difference? :biggrin:

The difference is two very different Kate's, one immature and the other one matured. It has nothing to do with who she loves more, it's all about how Kate has matured since her last conversation in season three with Juliet.

i know i'm opening a can of worms, but what else am i good for?:rolleyes:

the thing that struck me most about the juliet at the window scene, which i must admit, she did beautifully and looked beautiful as well, was the fact that the bacon was frying up and when sawyer brought it to her attention, she said,"oh, i forgot". now if anyone has been or knows someone that's preggers, that's one of the symptoms. trailing off, forgetting things, spacing out. i know, i know, i'm not saying that she IS pregnant, i'm saying that it was the first thing i thought of. of course, then they went into the scene and i understood what she was worried about and what she was thinking. i've kind of pushed it to the back of my mind, but we are discussing the scene.

merch, i agree that it was a sweet scene, but sawyer was one step away from being convincing that his love is for juliet and only.

i think that next week we will get more conversation between sawyer and kate regarding why she's back because this is her episode. kate centric, baby!
hopefully, finally, some answers. but i doubt fullfilling enough, right?

I lost track of this thread. Thought I was going to click on it and be seven pages behind.

Interesting first take on that. Never been pregnant myself, so it wasn't my first thought :cool:

I think Sawyer may love Juliet too, I just think he's confused about it now. He, and she (after her comments this episode) may think they're love is a product of being comfy in Dharma, when it may have very well developed anyway had they been living in the jungle for three years.

I hope there's no more flopping around of pairs, at this point. Especially with Kate sleeping with Jack before they left and not having seen Sawyer for three years. Her and Jack don't have to end up together for them both to be happy. If they leave things like that to the viewers, implying it in the show, with out going into detail, I'm okay with that.

The end is getting closer. And that goes for any future pairings. No need to hash out a romantic arc over multiple episodes. I think at this point, we know there's four people who care about each other and some care about specific members more than the rest.

They've established a romantic line for each pairing (though the Juliet/Jack connection may have gotten short changed a bit in the strike season).

I'm hoping for some upcoming answers too max. I really hope they don't keep the quadrangle unresolved until the end.

Oh, and what a misleading promo! ABC spliced Juliet into saying "I'm telling you to stay away" with cat claws almost showing, and it was just the opposite! She actually very sweetly said, "That’s a relief. I wasn’t sure how to do it without sounding like I was telling you to stay away." And I think Kate's smile was genuine. Thank God for no catfights, mud wrestling, or snipping off each other's pigtails. I was so expecting the writers to go there.

The promo was so misleading, I feel like they must have used a discarded take or something... ? I mean, it wasn't even the same formation of the sentence!

Honestly, I'm about at the point of turning the off before the promo airs. It's my only spoiler fix, but it just thee next episode when they twist it all up.... sigh.

I don't think Kate and Jack are living together. I'm pretty sure James knocked on the door next to his house, which is where Kate is living. I don't think we've seen Jack's house yet.

it's all very confusing......what am i talking about, lost is always confusing. i think you're right, merch, that sawyer and juliet think they need dharmaville to have a relationship that works, but i think they're wrong. i saw it coming before they entered the compound. i think, seriously, that the writers have dragged this triangle/quad along way too long. it's worse that a soap opera, and we know that that is not what lost was initially about. and what's worse, is that the real shippers are wishing each episode away just to see who kate wants to be with. and that's just wrong. we have very little left to enjoy and why waste it on angsting for our ships. the writers should be ashamed of themselves. it's sad to see juliet, kate and jack moping around hardly able to recognize any of them. juliet's sad blue eyes killed me. a side i hadn't seen before! jack's just like a limp rag waiting around for something to do. holding a hose to put out a fire. just not my jack! sawyer is the only one with life in him, aside from hurley. working with food, now that's the life for hugo! sawyer must love him!

Yea, Jack with the hose, infact the whole fire brigade there with the losties manning stations, Kate helping someone away from the burning house, what was that?

I get that they've grown as people, but it's like the show around them has changed. I saw Sawyer tell Jack to get that hose and I'm like are you kidding me? We're giving one of the central male leads (and female in Kate), maybe six minutes in this episode and two of them are putting out a fire with no speaking lines. It's like TPTB took a turn into Bizarro World. Give the shippers something new to root for, like the continued happiness of their ship.

I'm know shippers are tired of just rooting for the ambiguity to end. And I know I'm tired of reading all the posts from character bashers and posters who dog shippers and clog threads with repetitive baiting and sarcasm. Saying this one or that one is ruining the show. I think 95% of the actors have done a great in their roles, but sometimes the writers give them junk to act.

There will always be sesaons one and two to go back too. :grin:

I hope there's no more flopping around of pairs, at this point. Especially with Kate sleeping with Jack before they left and not having seen Sawyer for three years. Her and Jack don't have to end up together for them both to be happy. If they leave things like that to the viewers, implying it in the show, with out going into detail, I'm okay with that.

The end is getting closer. And that goes for any future pairings. No need to hash out a romantic arc over multiple episodes. I think at this point, we know there's four people who care about each other and some care about specific members more than the rest.



Kate is being reunited with her lost love. Really it's no different than Sun reuniting with Jin, except the writer's have thrown Juliet into the middle of Kate and Sawyer love story to boost up the angst and prolong their separation. I don't see flopping around, I see two loves finally reuniting after being tragically separated. What happened while apart is the peripherals to their love story.

I would say that they're not the same people they were, when they were in a relationship. That they've both grown and changed. I can understand a re-uniting stirring up old feelings, and memories of the people they were, but to bring them back together, imo, would negate the personal growth they each had in the three years they thought the other was gone.

Either way, that's just my feeling on it. My hope is that whatever final pairing the writers decide on, it's not drawn out across season six. Make a decision on it, show us and then the relationships can move forward. The writers can show the bond between the couple(s) and the good feelings that exist on the inside of a relationship.

I think they're missing out on potentially good plot points by keeping up the ambiguity.

Okay, where do we stand after tonight. Kate was wicked uncomfortable in the cafeteria scene. But she handled pretty well, on the whole. James and Jules are very much together, but worried about it falling apart. Jack has stepped back a bit and certainly doesn't seem to be putting pressure on Kate. In fact, I'd say he seems to understand that she's uncomfortable about James with Jules.

I really liked how Juliet said that she was glad she didn't have to tell Kate, because she wasn't sure how to say it without it sounding like she was asking her to back off. Which is cool... b/c she got to tell her to back off ;) but in a different way. But make it clear that James and Kate can still be friends.

Without too much shippery annoyingness, I hope we can debate the interesting scenes from tonight's episode!

Aside from the normal awkwardness of seeing someone after so long...I was actually wondering if she was more uncomfortable due to whatever conversation it was that she might have had with Cassidy, regarding Clementine. I wondered if she learned some new things about Sawyer... (?) :confused:

The other day I saw that someone on here had in their signature:

TEAM STICK WITH WHOEVER THE HELL YOU'RE WITH NOW!

:D!!!!!!!!!! I think that speaks volumes.

Give the shippers something new to root for, like the continued happiness of their ship.


ta da!. and so it begins!



Kate is being reunited with her lost love.
and i think she's already doing it with the man she loves.;)

they are both opinions, not fact.....yet.


TEAM STICK WITH WHOEVER THE HELL YOU'RE WITH NOW!

:D!!!!!!!!!! I think that speaks volumes.


BUT LADYBIRD....kate isn't with anyone right now!!!!!!!!!:hug:

Okay, where do we stand after tonight. Kate was wicked uncomfortable in the cafeteria scene. But she handled pretty well, on the whole. James and Jules are very much together, but worried about it falling apart. Jack has stepped back a bit and certainly doesn't seem to be putting pressure on Kate. In fact, I'd say he seems to understand that she's uncomfortable about James with Jules.
Hmmmm...
I also thought Kate was a little uncomfortable & I wanted to know if it was because she didn't expect James to have moved on, or if it was that he'd moved on with Juliet? Really, she can't have expected him to be alone for 3 years while she got on with her own life so even though I've been a Skater since this show got going & root for them to be together, I did feel like she doesn't really have a right to be uncomfortable about this piece of news if that makes any sense?

I liked Jack in this scene which surprised me...I think he felt her discomfort not only with the James/Juliet revelation but also with the reference to their relationship...he shut Hurley up & he didn't try to make it any more awkward which I thought that was pretty decent of him considering their encounter before the flight - he could've acted put out by her expression.

I really liked how Juliet said that she was glad she didn't have to tell Kate, because she wasn't sure how to say it without it sounding like she was asking her to back off. Which is cool... b/c she got to tell her to back off ;) but in a different way. But make it clear that James and Kate can still be friends.I thought that whole conversation was funny. Juliet rocks IMO & she was subtle, but at the same time ensuring that she got her message across. She has that whole "I'm smiling, but I would totally shoot you" thing down pat & I love it:biggrin:

I was really pleased to see in the spoiler photos thatshe is armed again & so is James. I've never been gun crazy, but I do love them as a kick*ss team

She has already done this with Jack. She settled for Jack because Sawyer was lost to her. This is now Kate and Sawyer's chance, they had years with other people they settled on, now they are being given a second chance finally with each other after some maturity.I only agree with this to a certain extent TBH. It's true that because Sawyer didn't make it home, she was never forced to choose between them so in effect got Jack by default however...it doesn't take away from the face that she loved him & was happy to be engaged to him. If she'd made some attempt to gain knowledge about the island/whether it could be found but failed, then I would say you were right that "She settled for Jack because Sawyer was lost to her" . It's definitely true that we may see more about her deeper feelings towards the man she had to leave behind especially as we will get to see flashbacks off-island & her carrying out the promise/meeting Clementine:biggrin: , but for know I'm just going with what's been shown so far.

The difference is two very different Kate's, one immature and the other one matured. It has nothing to do with who she loves more, it's all about how Kate has matured since her last conversation in season three with Juliet.TBH I think it's all to do with her agenda. I could be wrong but I believe that shippy drama with either Jack or Sawyer is not her priority right now & I know it's probably futile, but I want her to be less ambiguous & not knowingly give either man the wrong idea.

Another thing is she used Jack for sexual comfort in 316 & did the same with Sawyer in C22...same behaviour 3 years apart, so I'm in the camp that's not yet convinced she's matured when it comes to relationships. I do believe being a mother has meant she learned to love unconditionally & put someone elses needs above hers, but there was an element of selfishness in her keeping Aaron...it meant she wasn't alone in the world & also by concentrating on him she continued to run from (her theme)/didn't have to fully address her own grief/feelings of loss. I think her current pain stems from actually having to be truly selfless by returning Aaron - a child she loves more than anyone, to his rightful family (if that's indeed what she's done with him) & finally allowing the emotions she suppressed for three years to emerge.

Kate is being reunited with her lost love. Really it's no different than Sun reuniting with Jin, except the writer's have thrown Juliet into the middle of Kate and Sawyer love story to boost up the angst and prolong their separation. I don't see flopping around, I see two loves finally reuniting after being tragically separated. What happened while apart is the peripherals to their love story.The glaringly obvious difference for me is that Sun hasn't been shown having a substantial relationship with another man even though she believed Jin was dead. She had absolutely no hope whatsoever or any reason to believe he would make it back to her...even against the crazy moving island odds. By the same token we don't see Jin with anyone/making declarations of love to anyone other than Sun though he's been without her for 3 years.



Even though still I want them to end up together (though I reserve the right to change my mind), I hope TPTB will continue with the path they've taken this year & not to have any romantic interaction between SawyerKate the remainder of the season. If James has really grown & the change in him isn't superficial then he won't just ditch Juliet like that on a whim which is what I think we're seeing. He's been with her for 3 years & regardless of how much of that time was as a couple, she deserves better than to be cast aside for a romance that never quite took flight. If it isn't meant to be it will fizzle out eventually.

Likewise if Kate really has matured then she will respect that Sawyer is with someone & won't make any romantic overtures towards him either...instead she will first face her issues with Jack head on, put a proper end to that relationship (if that's the way the story is headed) & be sure of her feelings before she makes any more moves. If she flirts with James whilst still keeping Jack on a string or vice versa, I will develop a very very deep dislike for her.

Suliet is relatively new, but has been well executed thus far - Des & Pen are proof positive that you can have a good portion of the audience really take to a couple even if they haven't featured in a large number of episodes & whether or not it's my cup o' tea, Kate & Jack have had an emotional bond since early S1. So.......if TPTB have decided that Kate is to be with Jack, & James is to remain happy with Juliet, then I've reached a point where I could be happy with that ending.

Shippiness is anathema to me, but I'm puzzled that anyone can say Kate "settled for Jack" because Sawyer was lost to her. I thought they'd pretty much burned that bridge before she left the island. If he hadn't jumped (say, Hurley did instead), it's hard for me to see the two of them staying together. Just MHO, of course. Even though she ping ponged between the two of them for 100 days, Jack was always her hero; and even though she might have physical desire and even some love for Sawyer, she wanted to be with and be more like Jack.

We've seen Jack and Kate living together as a couple and now James and Juliet, every pairing in the quadrangle except Kate and Sawyer, maybe they're saving that until season 6? They never had a real chance of being a couple three years ago, because there were so much else going on at the time, first Kate went back to save Jack, James killing Cooper and then Kate left the island. And while their feelings was right, the timing just wasn't, with Kate hero worshipping Jack and all their issues. Also, Jate/Suliet has both been used as WTF-moments, like we aren't supposed to expect them to be together, unlike Kate and James, who we've seen progress from friends to lovers. That can't be a coincidence. And after these 10 episodes from season five, I'm more convinced than ever, that Kate and James belong together.

We've seen Jack and Kate living together as a couple and now James and Juliet, every pairing in the quadrangle except Kate and Sawyer, maybe they're saving that until season 6? They never had a real chance of being a couple three years ago, because there were so much else going on at the time, first Kate went back to save Jack, James killing Cooper and then Kate left the island. And while their feelings was right, the timing just wasn't, with Kate hero worshipping Jack and all their issues. Also, Jate/Suliet has both been used as WTF-moments, like we aren't supposed to expect them to be together, unlike Kate and James, who we've seen progress from friends to lovers. That can't be a coincidence. And after these 10 episodes from season five, I'm more convinced than ever, that Kate and James belong together.
Good point & it's one of the things that makes me think they have a real chance of being together at the end of it all:biggrin: It wasn't purely circumstance that kept them apart though...their own issues did much of the dividing work.

ETA:
As a result of the shifts in the quadrangle, Sawyer has experienced a solid relationship in which he isn't insecure about whether the love is mutual. This is no doubt the closest he's come to having a family or a home since his parents died & seems to be someting he craved deep down, but never felt he deserved or was even capable of & I don't want to underestimate what this time with Juliet means to him. Assuming for a moment that these 4 make it to the end of S6 alive, he may not want to be with Kate even if Kate chooses him. TPTB would likely enjoy such a twist.:)

I would say that they're not the same people they were, when they were in a relationship. That they've both grown and changed. I can understand a re-uniting stirring up old feelings, and memories of the people they were, but to bring them back together, imo, would negate the personal growth they each had in the three years they thought the other was gone.

Either way, that's just my feeling on it. My hope is that whatever final pairing the writers decide on, it's not drawn out across season six. Make a decision on it, show us and then the relationships can move forward. The writers can show the bond between the couple(s) and the good feelings that exist on the inside of a relationship.

I think they're missing out on potentially good plot points by keeping up the ambiguity.

No, they aren't the same people but some of their personal growth has made them the people that each other wanted them to be. Sawyer wanted Kate to commit, play house. Check. Kate wanted Sawyer to be the good guy and respected leader.Check. I'm curious to see how James reacts to the news of Jack and Kate's relationship. I think he will be a little bit jealous just like Kate is.

I'm going to feel cheated if they wait til the last show to put an end to this love story.

Yea, I'll be disappointed too. The ships ain't the end all be all for me, I like the tapestry of the peoples interactions as whole. The shipper side is part of that. Just settle the issue already and lets roll with it. I don't want this shadowing over the remainder of the show. It'd be like an umbrella when it's not raining. Doing nothing but blocking out some good sunshine.

Part of what makes a fictional romance emotionally satisfying is the journey. Which is why I can never get invested in the speeddialed couple relationships of Jack/Kate (off island hook up happened off screen), and Sawyer/Juliet (happened offscreen again)

Is it any wonder that many stories don't resolve or have the couples who seem to be in love (but don't see it or are in denial about it - despite everyone around them knowing it) truly make an unambiguous choice until the story is at its end. It's just how most romantic narratives are structured. To milk the tension, the angst, the frustration, the separations, the misunderstandings, the anticipation, the desire for them to finally realise they were meant for each other all along.

The 'just pick a person to love, who cares which and stick to it' idea, is pretty much IMO not what a romance is about.

However, the writers do have a difficult balancing act between not wanting something to become stale and boring aka the Moonlighting effect, which Darlton said they wanted to avoid with S/K, and making the triangle so convoluted and ambiguous that people begin to be disinvested in seeing it play through to its conclusion.

I didn't mean it to come out as flippant as it may have read.

I just feel like they stalled the romance, most notably through out season 3, while they could have brought the situation to a head then. The tension, in my opinion, is so far wrung out that it's gone limp. I think TPTB are missing out on good romantic story telling by not settling the pairings.

They can't do stories where Juliet is in a hopeless situation. Cut off from Sawyer. And it's her love of him that allows her to get through and overcome. They can't do stories where Sawyer knows Juliet is in danger, all hell is stacked infront of him and the odds are bleak, but he overcomes it because he needs to see her again, needs to try and save.

You can sub in Kate and Jack's names and even flip flop them in the order. I'd like them to finalize the quadrangle and then touch upon the depth of the feelings these people have for each other.

It ends next year. I don't know how much depth you can bring out of any finalized 'ship with a season left to go. A season that's going to wrap up the loose ends. Especially when at this point, they're still teasing the audience with ambiguity in the matter.

I'm a romantic Zo, and the journey is the best part. I just feel like they haven't put any of them on that journey yet. No, that's not true. It seems to me like the quadrangle has started on the yellowbrick road, but they're stuck at the crossroads where they meet the Scarecrow. TPTB haven't moved them forward from there.

In reading over these past few episodes there seems to be a lot of aggravation from the shipper community that the issue isn't settled at this point. Just from what I've come across.

I didn't mean just pick and move on, push the whole thing to the side. Just think that that aspect of the story isn't getting done justice by keeping up the uncertainty, at this late a date.

I understand where you are coming from Merch. Believe me, I share the frustration too. It does feel like they are stalling, and also mixing things up simply to construct more obstacles rather than truly explore how these people feel about each other (obviously within the confines of the dramatic, mytharc heavy plot). As I said, it's a difficult balancing act, and right now, I think they may have misstepped a little in the pacing. Especially when, for me, the mini arc seemed to really push things forward. Then from mid S3, through season 4, and now this season, it just seems like we're getting so much ambiguity/WTF gotcha moments (which IMO is not be how a romance should be written) that it's making it less engaging for many people to watch.

I just feel like they stalled the romance, most notably through out season 3, while they could have brought the situation to a head then. The tension, in my opinion, is so far wrung out that it's gone limp. I think TPTB are missing out on good romantic story telling by not settling the pairings.I think you hit the nail on the head there. Certainly for Sawyer & Kate S3 was their high point & they never really had anything as momentous after that. The scene in Eggtown ended badly & whilst the S4 Finale kiss was awesome (for me anyway), it only highlighted wasted chemistry. Jack & Kate fared no better...again no real romantic moment most of the season, then comes SNBH they got engaged & went up in smoke in one epi. Neither of these couples are currently screaming OTP to me & whether hardcore shippers want to acknowedge it or not, both sides of the original triangle have been short-changed which has only contributed to people becoming more frustrated & really wanting to have these final parings take their positions.

They can't do stories where Juliet is in a hopeless situation. Cut off from Sawyer. And it's her love of him that allows her to get through and overcome. They can't do stories where Sawyer knows Juliet is in danger, all hell is stacked infront of him and the odds are bleak, but he overcomes it because he needs to see her again, needs to try and save.
Maybe this is the direction they're going to take this couple now? It doesn't seem like TPTB plan to have them give up on each other/bail out on their relationship. Regarding the shows couples, Kristin's info says Suliet will be going strong to the end of the season so maybe we'll see the kind of scenarios you mention. Similarly where the focus has been on Suliet this season, Jack & Kate could be headed in the same direction for a final reconciliaton/have more focus S6? I'm not ruling anything out just yet.

I'm a romantic Zo, and the journey is the best part. I just feel like they haven't put any of them on that journey yet. No, that's not true. It seems to me like the quadrangle has started on the yellowbrick road, but they're stuck at the crossroads where they meet the Scarecrow. TPTB haven't moved them forward from there.
Yep...I feel like they're on the cusp of something great here...it can either evolve into epic romances with nice ties to the mythology or be an epic fail.

I understand where you are coming from Merch. Believe me, I share the frustration too. It does feel like they are stalling, and also mixing things up simply to construct more obstacles rather than truly explore how these people feel about each other (obviously within the confines of the dramatic, mytharc heavy plot). As I said, it's a difficult balancing act, and right now, I think they may have misstepped a little in the pacing. Especially when, for me, the mini arc seemed to really push things forward. Then from mid S3, through season 4, and now this season, it just seems like we're getting so much ambiguity/WTF gotcha moments (which IMO is not be how a romance should be written) that it's making it less engaging for many people to watch.

Ditto. Pacing. That's the word. While other arcs/mysteries are benefitting from the increased tempo, these aren't. Too bad they didn't negotiate the end before season three started filming.

I'm liking the Suliet pairing and hope it works out. I believe Sawyer feels he exorcised his demons when he had his "encounter" with Cooper. And Juliet appears very comfortable in Dharmaville. Maybe it's resignation. Hard to tell since we don't know why she and Sawyer (and Jin, Miles and Dan) didn't get on that sub, although I think Dan had a hand in that.

But Kate still seems to be dealing with her past. Here's the transcript from What Kate Did when she thinks Wayne may be speaking through Sawyer:

[Kate and Sawyer in the hatch.]
KATE: Can you hear me? Sawyer? Wayne? [Sawyer stirs] I'm probably crazy and this doesn't matter, but maybe you're in there somehow. But you asked me a question. You asked me why I -- why I did it. It wasn't because you drove my father away, or the way you looked at me, or because you beat her. It's because I hated that you were a part of me -- that I would never be good. That I would never have anything good. And every time that I look at Sawyer -- every time I feel something for him -- I see you, Wayne. It makes me sick.

Damaged goods? I think this has something to do with why Kate is back on the island, although she may not have an awareness of it yet, just as Sayid didn't immediately know why he had to go back. I really like Kate so I'll be content if the writers just get her emotional head on straight again, which seemed to be happening when she was parenting Aaron for Claire. If she ends up with Jack, that's fine but I'd really like to see her emerge as a strong, confident woman who doesn't need to kiss or be kissed to feel better about herself or who doesn't need to follow others into dangerous situations to feel she's worthy of being alive.

They can't do stories where Juliet is in a hopeless situation. Cut off from Sawyer. And it's her love of him that allows her to get through and overcome. They can't do stories where Sawyer knows Juliet is in danger, all hell is stacked infront of him and the odds are bleak, but he overcomes it because he needs to see her again, needs to try and save.

That depends on what kind of hopeless situation. Imagine Sawyer entertaining the idea of dallying with Kate... getting ready to get busy, when Juliet pings him on the walkie and tells him she's pregnant. And that this happens right after the first mother and baby are lost in the same fashion as all those lost in 2004.

If the pairs were set, there wouldn't be dallying with someone else.

I'm saying the writers are missing out on investigating the depths of a set relationship. The power of love. The extremes a person would go to in maintaining that. Whatever the final ships are. I just plugged in Sawyer and Juliet, but read any names you want there.

she didn't expect James to have moved on, or if it was that he'd moved on with Juliet?


i agree with this. even if kate wouldn't want to be with sawyer, she may have a problem with it being with juliet.
100%
Shippiness is anathema to me, but I'm puzzled that anyone can say Kate "settled for Jack" because Sawyer was lost to her. I thought they'd pretty much burned that bridge before she left the island. If he hadn't jumped (say, Hurley did instead), it's hard for me to see the two of them staying together. Just MHO, of course. Even though she ping ponged between the two of them for 100 days, Jack was always her hero; and even though she might have physical desire and even some love for Sawyer, she wanted to be with and be more like Jack.

i thought the same thing that if sawyer had made it home with the o6, she wouldn't have ended up with him. she still would have wanted to keep aaron, and i don't think much would have changed.
However, the writers do have a difficult balancing act between not wanting something to become stale and boring aka the Moonlighting effect, which Darlton said they wanted to avoid with S/K, and making the triangle so convoluted and ambiguous that people begin to be disinvested in seeing it play through to its conclusion

and don't you think that they have to see that the fans are tired of this. the shippers are tired and the nonshippers are tired. it is so ridiculous that we are pushing and pulling between each other. i still say that they sit back and laugh at all teh speculations we have. they are making this a game. each week we look forward to a little crumb and little sign and we pick each scene apart to the point of exhaustion. i just don't find it fun anymore!

a the end of lafleur, i was sure that they would axe the suliet pairing since kate came back. fortunately or unfortunately they haven't. fortunately because she deserves to be respected and unfortunately because she needs to be respected. to have her with sawyer longer makes us like the relationship more and hope that they stay together. if he leaves her later on in the season, it will be hard. so no matter what, we/they're screwed. unless they keep them together. this episode showed her vulnerability. those blue eyes! goodness!

Where do we stand on the quadrangle? Where the writers want us to stand. Confused. I do not buy the Sawyer and Juliet pairing. I do not think the writers cared if we bought it or not either. After LaFleur which established the pairing, what have we seen? I know Kristin says they will be going strong till the end of the season but what does that mean? Are Namaste and "He's our you" them going strong? If so, all Skaters rejoice.

Where do we stand on the quadrangle?

In the midst of establishing Sawyer/Juliet the writers have taken the time-

To visually present Sawyer somehow witnessing a scene from season 1 of Kate helping to bring Aaron into the world. The same Aaron he saved from Keamy's gang and handed over to Kate. The same Aaron Kate went on to raise for 3 years in season 5. The same Aaron that most likely plays a huge part in Kate's purpose for returning to the Island. (This just being only one example of where these characters arcs intertwine in the overall story of this show. This just being one example of how far ahead in the writing the writers are. Season 1 dvd, Damon in the commentary says, "they will never get off this Island, except in season 4) this is commentary from the FIRST season! Lost has it's ending and nothing we can say is going to change that and it makes me happy that we do not control the story.
To visually present a poignant reunion for Sawyer and Kate.
To visually present a Lei scene between Sawyer and Kate(and we know how Darlton like their symbolism)
To visually present a longing/pining porch scene between Kate and Sawyer.
To visually present Kate being upset by the news that Sawyer and Juliet were living together "not as room mates"(if you doubt her reaction please head to youtube and watch just that scene and pause the minute after Hurley spells it out to her) also, watch carefully and listen carefully when Jack confirms that he did know. Kate was upset.
To visually present Juliet confirming it to Kate and Kates entire posture in that scene was discomfort. In fact, Evangeline Lilly is playing this phase of Kate, brilliantly. She is saying very little but with her eyes and body she is expressing a whole lot. She looks like she has the weight of the world on her shoulders and that includes Aaron.
To visually present Sawyer stopping and looking shocked to see Kate and Juliet together and this can be argued either way but it seems like he was looking at Kate anfd Kate was looking at him. When she realised this, she had a quick look at Juliet and then moved away from Sawyers view point behind Juliet.
To visually present Sawyer and Kate being uncomfortable and tense but still with happy warm looks in their eyes in the 2nd porch scene they have shared.

They have left nothing to fanwanking which is more than can be said for the other potential pairings of the quad.

Now, I don't know about anyone else but this does not show me that Sawyer and Juliet are the pairing and Sawyer is hopelessly inlove with Juliet. Juliet is not unaware of what Kate means to Sawyer. The audience whether they wish to admit it or not are not unaware. Kate and Sawyer are not unaware. I do not know how the writers are going to play it out but what I do know is that it has already been done so no amount of fanwanking is going to change it. Our job is to watch it happen. Would I have preferred for couples to be sorted out by now? Maybe. However, if that happened, we would be bored by now.

If Sawyer and Juliet were presented as they are for more than a season, boredom would have killed us all. The reason some are able to appreciate their relationship is because it is a marked difference from the troubles of either Skate or Jate. So, we have the original triangle to thank for anyone enjoying Suliet because Suliet on it's own, in my opinion, is boring. It is what Suliet prevents and causes that is interesting.

I like this new Jack. Not that I hated the old one but the old one preferred to feel sorry for himself and cry his eyes out while Sawyer comforted Kate. The old one got off island and did not think to introduce Kate to his mom, while Hurley carried Sayid to his people. Kate was on her own. This new Jack(and this is something people might need to reflect on) seems intune to Kates feelings for Sawyer. We saw his look at the reunion. We saw his behaviour at the brekkie table. Jack seems to be fully aware of the depth of Kates feelings for Sawyer. Maybe her FB will enlighten us.

Jack loves Kate but he is calmer now and ready to let things fall where they can for now.
Sawyer is completely torn. He has a woman who represents everything that he should want and everything that he should need to get the family life he never had but deep down he is still drawn and connected to Kate and the guilt will finally do him in because you can con yourself when there is no one to call you out, but how long can you con yourself when the real you starts threatening to come out. Sawyer will do his darndest to remain with Juliet but eventually something is gonna give and as EM said, let's see who breaks the loyalty. In my opinion it is only a matter of time. Sawyer, ironically enough, finds himself in the position Kate found herself in previous seasons. Flipflopping is not just a female disease.

Kate-It's all about Aaron. Jack she does not want to to deal with. Closure will have to happen there at some point but that is not her focus now. It would have been good to have Sawyer to talk to but he is taken so that is also not her focus but it is an added strain and she is showing that.

Juliet-Well, what can she do? She is doing laundry, cooking for the man, believing in him. That's all she can do. She is fully aware he has feelings for another woman. She was hoping that woman would never show up. The woman has and now Juliet has to live in constant fear of having history repeat itself. Finding herself as "the other woman" and this time in her own house. Will this lead her to do something that breaks the relationship off due to her own fears and insecurities? Possibly. EM did say her dark side might show, but whatever it is, be it Kate, be it Sawyer, be it Juliet, the Sawyer/Juliet pairing will implode simply because it is not meant to be. As one recapper put it, Juliet is not Sawyers mythological match.

Very sorry for the extremely long post. I do not post often. Maybe I should so that my posts are not so long. Sorry.

The old one got off island and did not think to introduce Kate to his mom


we actually don't know that since in 316 we found out that jack's grandpa had met kate, and we never saw that. i don't think we can speculate everything they did and didn't do over the 3 year span off the island just like we cannot with sawyer and juliet.

i thought for sure suliet would be done after lafleur, but like what i said in my earlier post, the longer they keep them together the harder and sadder the break up would be.:frown:

we actually don't know that since in 316 we found out that jack's grandpa had met kate, and we never saw that. i don't think we can speculate everything they did and didn't do over the 3 year span off the island just like we cannot with sawyer and juliet.

i thought for sure suliet would be done after lafleur, but like what i said in my earlier post, the longer they keep them together the harder and sadder the break up would be.:frown:


No, we saw it actually. It was actually given decent screen time. Jack comes out and hugs mom. Hurley comes out and hugs his own people. Sayid comes out looking around. Kate comes out with Aaron, looking around. Hurley goes off and drags Sayid to introduce to his parents. They show Jack with his mom. Then the camera ends with Kate holding Aaron close and standing looking around all by herself. I think that scene was to show that Kate was indeed, all by herself. So, it's not speculation. They showed us that.

Later on in the years, they revealed to us that at some point, Kate had met Jack's grandfather but that was not my point.

My point is, when they all came off the plane, no one thought to go to Kate and Jack of all people knew she had no one. If anything, it would be the cops waiting with cuffs to take her away. The writers made the point of showing us Hurley getting Sayid but did not show us Jack getting Kate.

It all reflects back on what the writers are trying to tell us about all these relationships. Does anyone, be you Jater, Skater, or Suliet, Jacket, whatever the ship, think that if Sawyer was on that plane, Kate would be standing there alone like that? Even if Sawyer had someone come and greet him? I do not think so. Sawyer would be with Kate. The old Jack was all about himself and Kate was just to follow him blindly. Just like when he found the caves and he was going "We" have to convince them and Kate had to remind him that he had not convinced her yet. He turned back and looked at her like she was crazy. Like he did not need to convince her because she is supposed to always believe him and have his back. He knew she idol worshipped him even that early on.

That scene with Kate standing there by herself for me, is one of the saddest scenes in this entire series.

GOCP Kate wasn't standing there by herself, she was standing with Aaron, and that was the point of the scene. The airport scene was, imo, intended to show the beginning of the bond between Kate and Aaron and how important a role he was gonna play in her life. Jack, Sawyer or any other man may or not be there but Aaron was hers, they were going to be in it together. I think this underlies a fundamenal difference in how many women view their children and men these days (I'm sure they will correct me if I'm wrong :biggrin:) I don't think the writers were intending viewers to come away from that scene thinking "wow Jack treated her like a piece of *****" We later saw that Kate attended Christian's service, met grandpa...I think it's safe to say Jack wasn't hiding Kate in the closet. The airport scene had little to do with Jack or Sawyer and everything to do with Aaron.

:JC_goodpost: wish i'd said that. maybe we should add aaron to the quad!

just joking. that was a very good point, freighter! aaron is her's there, standing alone, two against the new world. and you are right, a child, for most mothers, is number one in their heart. kate chose aaron over jack when he was beligerent and now that we're on the subject, diane chose wayne over her child.

my high school boyfriend was shot and killed recently by his step son that he had known since he was a small boy. i always wondered how his mother felt. she lost both a son and husband and the same time, but who did she blame? did she forgive her son because he is her son, or did she not forgive him for taking her husband away from him? funny, i blamed her! kind of mirrors kate, wayne and diane except for the reasons behind the killings.

I don't like to toot my own horn but still would like to take this moment to mention that, if I can take credit for one thing in all my time on these boards, it is that I am the one who way back when coined the phrase, "love quadrangle", for Lost.

The weird thing is I used the phrase "love quadrangle" in a totally speculative, but highly tongue-in-cheek, posting. I never imagined the love quadrangle would actually come to fruition! :eek2:

One more thing:

Rumors are abound that the Lost producers are toying with the idea of love parallelograms, loopty-loops and figure eights for the sixth and final season. Stay tuned....

I don't like to toot my own horn but still would like to take this moment to mention that, if I can take credit for one thing in all my time on these boards, it is that I am the one who way back when coined the phrase, "love quadrangle", for Lost.

The weird thing is I used the phrase "love quadrangle" in a totally speculative, but highly tongue-in-cheek, posting. I never imagined the love quadrangle would actually come to fruition! :eek2:

One more thing:

Rumors are abound that the Lost producers are toying with the idea of love parallelograms, loopty-loops and figure eights for the sixth and final season. Stay tuned....


I can appreciate you're getting ahead of the game in terms of coining the phrase for next season but I only can only respond by saying

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH

Th writers don't even seem to know what to do with what they have on their plate now, I can only imagine if they complicate it further.

The weird thing is I used the phrase "love quadrangle" in a totally speculative, but highly tongue-in-cheek, posting. I never imagined the love quadrangle would actually come to fruition! :eek2:


then, can we blame you??????

just joking. :laugh: it was inevitable, wasn't it. throw a monkey wrench into the mix.

gocp, those are good posts. Presented like that, it's pretty thought provoking, at least for me.

I do think one of the important aspects of the airport arrival scene was to show us Kate back in the world with no one there for her. She had Aaron and that's it. Sayid was in the same boat initially getting off the plane, but Hurley scooped him up and introduced him to his family.

I'm don't know if the scene was meant to imply anything Kate and Jack feelings (or non-feelings, as it were) but it is a little odd that Jack didn't do the same thing for Kate, that Hurley did for Sayid.

Especially after seeing the boat scene between the two, where Kate agrees to lie and tells Jack she's always been with him. Maybe the writers didn't know that far ahead.

Either way, that particle scene illustrated, for me, Kate's first and last step. First step on a new and unknown life as Aaron's mom, potentially facing that alone, and her last step as the Kate we came to know on the island.

Again, nice post gocp. A switching of the relationships at his point would be aggravating, whether or not this is the best chemistry or the mythological match for the quadrangle, because with so little time left in the show, they'd have to use to time, again, to re-establish those old pairings.

I have to leave that door open a little more though, you made a good arguement.

By all means, post more.

gocp, great posts, very thought-provoking...you need to chime in more often!

I do think one of the important aspects of the airport arrival scene was to show us Kate back in the world with no one there for her. She had Aaron and that's it. Sayid was in the same boat initially getting off the plane, but Hurley scooped him up and introduced him to his family.

I'm don't know if the scene was meant to imply anything Kate and Jack feelings (or non-feelings, as it were) but it is a little odd that Jack didn't do the same thing for Kate, that Hurley did for Sayid.
That scene was two-fold, and I agree, it was one of the saddest scenes of the show, for me. It was meant to illustrate how Kate would become so desperate to hold on to Aaron, to make him "hers", at any cost. He was all she had. But I think it was also meant to illustrate how her relationship with Jack was doomed from the get-go. Hurley had the thought to introduce Sayid to his family, to bring him in as part of something...but Jack and Kate are nowhere close to that point. And won't ever be. Even their future attempt at "something nice back home" was painted in darkness and lies, and less stable than a house of cards. Which came tumbling down at the merest mention of Sawyer's name.
100%

Especially after seeing the boat scene between the two, where Kate agrees to lie and tells Jack she's always been with him. Maybe the writers didn't know that far ahead.


That scene was used as dramatic irony in that episode. Kate's words were not in any romantic context...she tells Jack that she's always been with him, meaning she's always "had his back" on the Island. However, in contrast, we see in the future how Jack does not return that sentiment...he has no problem in betraying Kate and Aaron over to Ben.

i admit i would love to see Juliets chest on Kate, but the characters I don't really like either, not sure if I enjoyed any female character on the show :(. However Juliet and Jack will end up together but it won't be right, Sawyer will end up with Kate but they will be dysfunctional to say the least. I don't think Jack and Kate have or ever will be compatible

gocp, great posts, very thought-provoking...you need to chime in more often!


That scene was two-fold, and I agree, it was one of the saddest scenes of the show, for me. It was meant to illustrate how Kate would become so desperate to hold on to Aaron, to make him "hers", at any cost. He was all she had. But I think it was also meant to illustrate how her relationship with Jack was doomed from the get-go. Hurley had the thought to introduce Sayid to his family, to bring him in as part of something...but Jack and Kate are nowhere close to that point. And won't ever be. Even their future attempt at "something nice back home" was painted in darkness and lies, and less stable than a house of cards. Which came tumbling down at the merest mention of Sawyer's name.
100%


That scene was used as dramatic irony in that episode. Kate's words were not in any romantic context...she tells Jack that she's always been with him, meaning she's always "had his back" on the Island. However, in contrast, we see in the future how Jack does not return that sentiment...he has no problem in betraying Kate and Aaron over to Ben.

I agree they didn't come off as romantic in that scene. But they were was still a feeling of comraderie between them, at the very least, I thought. Course if Jack introduces her to his mom after they got off the plane, they couldn't have that Kate moment.

I wouldn't characterize Jack as betraying Aaron and Kate to Ben. Jack didn't know it was Ben behind it. Ben doesn't tell anyone what his plans are, only that he has them. That was my take on it. It was easy to see how Kate could think thatthough , with Jack sticking up for Ben initially.

I can appreciate you're getting ahead of the game in terms of coining the phrase for next season but I only can only respond by saying

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ENOUGH IS ENOUGH


freighter hater: I understand what you are saying, but do you feel strongly about it???

;)

then, can we blame you??????

just joking. :laugh: it was inevitable, wasn't it. throw a monkey wrench into the mix.

maxaholic: The mere thought of the Lost writers fishing these boards for story ideas frankly scare me. :eek:

I, for one, am still waiting for Ben to get into the mix. A fire still burns in the heart of this Romeo for Juliet. Romliets everywhere are eagerly awaiting the moment when he springs the ring! :)

I wouldn't characterize Jack as betraying Aaron and Kate to Ben. Jack didn't know it was Ben behind it. Ben doesn't tell anyone what his plans are, only that he has them. That was my take on it. It was easy to see how Kate could think thatthough , with Jack sticking up for Ben initially


merch! you never cease to amaze me!:give_rose:
maxaholic: The mere thought of the Lost writers fishing these boards for story ideas frankly scare me. :eek:


no, i think they're drinking while reading and having a hell of a time! i'm sure they think we're all nuts!


I, for one, am still waiting for Ben to get into the mix. A fire still burns in the heart of this Romeo for Juliet. Romliets everywhere are eagerly awaiting the moment when he springs the ring! :)



:rotflmao2: i look forward to that. btw, i love ben in the mix!

Hmmmm...
I also thought Kate was a little uncomfortable & I wanted to know if it was because she didn't expect James to have moved on, or if it was that he'd moved on with Juliet? Really, she can't have expected him to be alone for 3 years while she got on with her own life so even though I've been a Skater since this show got going & root for them to be together, I did feel like she doesn't really have a right to be uncomfortable about this piece of news if that makes any sense?

I liked Jack in this scene which surprised me...I think he felt her discomfort not only with the James/Juliet revelation but also with the reference to their relationship...he shut Hurley up & he didn't try to make it any more awkward which I thought that was pretty decent of him considering their encounter before the flight - he could've acted put out by her expression.

I thought that whole conversation was funny. Juliet rocks IMO & she was subtle, but at the same time ensuring that she got her message across. She has that whole "I'm smiling, but I would totally shoot you" thing down pat & I love it:biggrin:

I was really pleased to see in the spoiler photos thatshe is armed again & so is James. I've never been gun crazy, but I do love them as a kick*ss team

I only agree with this to a certain extent TBH. It's true that because Sawyer didn't make it home, she was never forced to choose between them so in effect got Jack by default however...it doesn't take away from the face that she loved him & was happy to be engaged to him. If she'd made some attempt to gain knowledge about the island/whether it could be found but failed, then I would say you were right that "She settled for Jack because Sawyer was lost to her" . It's definitely true that we may see more about her deeper feelings towards the man she had to leave behind especially as we will get to see flashbacks off-island & her carrying out the promise/meeting Clementine:biggrin: , but for know I'm just going with what's been shown so far.

TBH I think it's all to do with her agenda. I could be wrong but I believe that shippy drama with either Jack or Sawyer is not her priority right now & I know it's probably futile, but I want her to be less ambiguous & not knowingly give either man the wrong idea.

Another thing is she used Jack for sexual comfort in 316 & did the same with Sawyer in C22...same behaviour 3 years apart, so I'm in the camp that's not yet convinced she's matured when it comes to relationships. I do believe being a mother has meant she learned to love unconditionally & put someone elses needs above hers, but there was an element of selfishness in her keeping Aaron...it meant she wasn't alone in the world & also by concentrating on him she continued to run from (her theme)/didn't have to fully address her own grief/feelings of loss. I think her current pain stems from actually having to be truly selfless by returning Aaron - a child she loves more than anyone, to his rightful family (if that's indeed what she's done with him) & finally allowing the emotions she suppressed for three years to emerge.

The glaringly obvious difference for me is that Sun hasn't been shown having a substantial relationship with another man even though she believed Jin was dead. She had absolutely no hope whatsoever or any reason to believe he would make it back to her...even against the crazy moving island odds. By the same token we don't see Jin with anyone/making declarations of love to anyone other than Sun though he's been without her for 3 years.



Even though still I want them to end up together (though I reserve the right to change my mind), I hope TPTB will continue with the path they've taken this year & not to have any romantic interaction between SawyerKate the remainder of the season. If James has really grown & the change in him isn't superficial then he won't just ditch Juliet like that on a whim which is what I think we're seeing. He's been with her for 3 years & regardless of how much of that time was as a couple, she deserves better than to be cast aside for a romance that never quite took flight. If it isn't meant to be it will fizzle out eventually.

Likewise if Kate really has matured then she will respect that Sawyer is with someone & won't make any romantic overtures towards him either...instead she will first face her issues with Jack head on, put a proper end to that relationship (if that's the way the story is headed) & be sure of her feelings before she makes any more moves. If she flirts with James whilst still keeping Jack on a string or vice versa, I will develop a very very deep dislike for her.

Suliet is relatively new, but has been well executed thus far - Des & Pen are proof positive that you can have a good portion of the audience really take to a couple even if they haven't featured in a large number of episodes & whether or not it's my cup o' tea, Kate & Jack have had an emotional bond since early S1. So.......if TPTB have decided that Kate is to be with Jack, & James is to remain happy with Juliet, then I've reached a point where I could be happy with that ending.

Kate_Austen: You really have summed up exactly how I feel. Jack and Kate have been set up since the beginning, so if that's the path the writers go, fine. And I'll be okay with it, because I'm huge James fan and a huge Juliet fan, and they are great together. So I prefer Skate to Jate. I'd like it resolved and all parties happy together, weathering whatever storms come their way for the last season and a half.

We shall see....

i agree that her issue stems from it being with juliet.

i agree that her issue stems from it being with juliet.

Could be some negative feelings for Kate still, because of the whole, handcuffed-to-juliet-and-dragged-in-the-jungle-lie that almost got them eaten by the Smoke Monster. :cool:

Or it could be the amazon move Juliet executed on Kate, when Kate tried to surprise her with the pool stick in the rec room when she was bringing Kate a sandwhich.

I might find it a little hard to see my ex lover shacking up with a person my first impression told me not to like. :cool:

Gocp you nailed!. Perfect post :thumbup:!.

Thank you guys. Just dropping my two cents.

Freighter, I did not say they wanted us to think Jack a wanker. My point is, the scene illustrated all those things you said and more. I do not think if they were ignoring what I said, they would have made the point of showing Hurley embracing Sayid into his fold. That scene was to show, Kate is all alone and all she has is Aaron and to show what we eventually saw, which is the unhealthy dynamics of Jack and Kate. It mirrors back to the hatch scene, When Kate got emotional, it was Sawyer who sought her out to comfort her. Jack went to the bathroom and cried. Jack was always about himself. Kate was just to follow idol worshipping behind. He seems to have changed. We will find out.

I do not think the writers have run out of time. When they do end the Suliet relationship, they have done enough with Skate as I posted, to lay a foundation to develop it. Same thing with Jate. After the catastrophe off Island, they have a foundation should that be the path, to try and rebuild the relationship. They have kept their original triangle alive in the midst of creating another relationship. That is the brilliance of the writers of this show.

My only complaint is that being a huge fan of the chemistry that only Holloway and Lilly can bring to the table, hours are being wasted. The banana scene alone, between Sawyer and Kate, had more chemistry than anything Mitchell and Holloway have managed. My only complaint is that in the season of Sawyer we are not using and seeing all the best of Sawyer that made him the guy the fans loved to hate but I know they have a bigger scene to set and story to tell so I have to suck it up.

Could be some negative feelings for Kate still, because of the whole, handcuffed-to-juliet-and-dragged-in-the-jungle-lie that almost got them eaten by the Smoke Monster.


can you blame her?;) i know that it's taken me until the 5th season to like her!


I might find it a little hard to see my ex lover shacking up with a person my first impression told me not to like. :cool:


very much so. she didn't like her with jack because of it, and the memory serves her well to feel that way about sawyer. she cannot imagine that juliet could be the sweet, demure and loving woman that she is. if she truly has changed for the good then kate will figure that out and feel good about the relationship. not that it's up to kate or to sawyer if they like either's significant other. it's their personal problems.


That scene was to show, Kate is all alone and all she has is Aaron and to show what we eventually saw, which is the unhealthy dynamics of Jack and Kate


i felt sad for kate as well when they had that scene. i also see where jack was swept up in seeing his mother, thinking that he'd never see her again, knowing that she lost her husband, not to mention his body and so happy to be reunited with her. the scene was very quick and they had to cover each one that got off the island. kate was all alone, but she had her aaron.

but to say that it proved an unhealthy dynamic of kate and jack, i don't agree with that.

in the hatch when ana and libby were killed, sawyer was closest to kate, wasn't he? was jack suppose to push sawyer out of the way to comfort her? was comforting kate the most important issue at large? two women were just murdered. jack's a doctor. the first thing on a doctor's mind is to decide if anyone can be saved. i can't remember, but if jack did go into the bathroom to cry, shame on him!

in the hatch when ana and libby were killed, sawyer was closest to kate, wasn't he? was jack suppose to push sawyer out of the way to comfort her? was comforting kate the most important issue at large? two women were just murdered. jack's a doctor. the first thing on a doctor's mind is to decide if anyone can be saved. i can't remember, but if jack did go into the bathroom to cry, shame on him!

Max we disagree on if the scene showed the dynamics of Jack and Kate. I think it just showed Jack for who he was which affects the relationship with Kate. They had time to show Hurley getting Sayid but did not have time to show Jack getting Kate? Did they spend much time showing us Hurley and sayid having any particular bond that they would pick that over a second to show Jack getting Kate? I think they eliminated that for a reason. Exactly to show what we eventually saw. Jacks discomfort with being a daddy to Aaron and so on and so forth.

I am not aware of Sawyer being closest to Kate. Kate went to a little corner to cry. Jack went to the bathroom to cry. I was very irritated by that scene and did say shame on Jack. Sawyer sought Kate out and consoled her. Jack was feeling sorry for himself as usual, that he could not "fix" this one. I am not saying consoling Kate was the paramount issue at the time. I am showing the difference in approach of both relationships. Jack needs Kate to always believe in him and have his back whether she agrees with him or not. He insists on it. Relies on it. Kate feels obligated to provide that crutch for him. It makes her feel better about herself. He found the cave and did not bother to convince Kate or ask her if she agreed that they should bring the rest of the losties there. For one of the few times, Kate actually questioned his decision- "We? You haven't convinced me yet". Jack turned back and gave her a look that read like surprise because he had taken it for granted that Kate would do whatever he says. That was the dynamic of that relationship., Hero and do-gooder and the woman who worshipped and idolised him and felt this is the kind of man I must be around. Not like Wayne. The new Jack, asked Kate's opinion when Sawyer pitched his plan and Kate said "I think we should listen to Sawyer".

The new Jack is, so far, okay with Sawyer captaining the ship even to Hurley's surprise. No one can deny that there is a new Jack in town and maybe if this change had taken place off Island, Jate may have solidified their relationship enough but I am not a fan of relationships that evolve in the absence of pre-existing options. It is always better for the choice to be clear. Now Sawyer is around again. Yes, he is taken, but he is around. Same for Juliet. She has been "playing house" with Jim La Fleur. Now, the house of Suliet is about to come crashing down. Just like the bubble burst with Jack and Kate. The bubble will burst with Sawyer and Juliet. I do not know who will end up with who. I know what it seems like the writers are leading us to but I can not be sure. All I know is that I like that all the affected are back in the same place so whenever a choice is made, that choice will be clear because all the options were on the table.

I wouldn't characterize Jack as betraying Aaron and Kate to Ben. Jack didn't know it was Ben behind it. Ben doesn't tell anyone what his plans are, only that he has them. That was my take on it. It was easy to see how Kate could think thatthough , with Jack sticking up for Ben initially.

It was absolutely a betrayal to Kate, no matter Jack's intentions. He betrayed her the moment he steered her towards the marina without telling her who they were going to meet. Kate had no chance to make her own decisions about it. Jack and Kate both are aware of Ben's past, his capabilities, his skills at manipulations...and Jack led her straight into the Lion's Den without a single word of warning.
100%

in the hatch when ana and libby were killed, sawyer was closest to kate, wasn't he? was jack suppose to push sawyer out of the way to comfort her? was comforting kate the most important issue at large? two women were just murdered. jack's a doctor. the first thing on a doctor's mind is to decide if anyone can be saved. i can't remember, but if jack did go into the bathroom to cry, shame on him!

Jack did go into the bathroom (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season2/2x21-qmark/6a/normal_questionmark555.jpg), but I don't think he was crying. He was just looking into the mirror, probably silently berating himself (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season2/2x21-qmark/6a/normal_questionmark558.jpg) for failing to save Libby. I believe that scene helped to illustrate the two very different places that Jack and Sawyer were. Sawyer's priority was Kate. Even though he thought that she was with Jack at that point, he comforted her. Jack's priority seemed to be his own ego.

My only complaint is that being a huge fan of the chemistry that only Holloway and Lilly can bring to the table, hours are being wasted. The banana scene alone, between Sawyer and Kate, had more chemistry than anything Mitchell and Holloway have managed. My only complaint is that in the season of Sawyer we are not using and seeing all the best of Sawyer that made him the guy the fans loved to hate but I know they have a bigger scene to set and story to tell so I have to suck it up.

Jack needs Kate to always believe in him and have his back whether she agrees with him or not. He insists on it. Relies on it. Kate feels obligated to provide that crutch for him. It makes her feel better about herself. He found the cave and did not bother to convince Kate or ask her if she agreed that they should bring the rest of the losties there. For one of the few times, Kate actually questioned his decision- "We? You haven't convinced me yet". Jack turned back and gave her a look that read like surprise because he had taken it for granted that Kate would do whatever he says. That was the dynamic of that relationship., Hero and do-gooder and the woman who worshipped and idolised him and felt this is the kind of man I must be around. Not like Wayne. The new Jack, asked Kate's opinion when Sawyer pitched his plan and Kate said "I think we should listen to Sawyer".

Hi all, first-timer here but I would like to say that you really nailed it, gocp. It's the amazing chemistry between those two actors (although I believe a wooden door would react to Josh Holloway :biggrin:) that made Skate so much more real.

As a Skater from Season 1, I really REALLY want to believe there's still hope for them but IMHO it's not going to happen. I didn't see Kate's reaction on the brekkie table as you guys did. I believe she was actually annoyed to be the last one to know and, yes, probably a bit grumpy to see Juliet again crossing her romantic ways. But... Kate DOES NOT CARE if Sawyer is with Juliet because she never loved him in the same way he loved her. She reacted to him out of fear, threats, jealousy but she has always yearned for Jack, as you pointed out, in an unhealthy hero-worshipping manner. I do believe she likes Sawyer because she knows what happened to him as a child and she sees him as "damaged goods" like herself, she has seen the inner Sawyer and liked him, that's why she was so sweet to him in the hatch when he was ill. But the writers are playing with us with lines like the ones they exchange before the flaming bus appears. She was not going to say, "...I just know why I did and it was to be with you again". More likely it would be, "...I just know why I did and it was because (i.e.) Ben has got Aaron and said I needed to come back or I'd never see him again". :frown:

I so wish I were wrong...

The new Jack is, so far, okay with Sawyer captaining the ship even to Hurley's surprise. No one can deny that there is a new Jack in town and maybe if this change had taken place off Island, Jate may have solidified their relationship enough but I am not a fan of relationships that evolve in the absence of pre-existing options. It is always better for the choice to be clear. Now Sawyer is around again. Yes, he is taken, but he is around. Same for Juliet. She has been "playing house" with Jim La Fleur. Now, the house of Suliet is about to come crashing down. Just like the bubble burst with Jack and Kate. The bubble will burst with Sawyer and Juliet. I do not know who will end up with who. I know what it seems like the writers are leading us to but I can not be sure. All I know is that I like that all the affected are back in the same place so whenever a choice is made, that choice will be clear because all the options were on the table.

In my opinion your posts have been spot on in this thread. Personally I don't think anything has changed since 'I do' when it comes to who has Kate's heart.

Jack has always known that there was something between Kate and Sawyer and it started way back in 'Solitary'. He has watched them slowly fall in love over the course of the show and has never wanted to acknowledge it. Now I see a Jack that is acknowledging it and I won't be surprised if he helps them in the future in some way.

I was really shocked when Juliet was looking out the window at Jack and Kate and said, "It's over isn't it?" I was like woah that was fast!

But then James doesn't even think for a minute that she means their love. He assumes they are talking about the whole Dharma set up. I do think he could have been a bit more sensitive and said something like, "You and I are going to be together no matter what. I don't have feelings for Kate anymore." Maybe that speech is coming or maybe it's not true and he doesn't want to lie to her.

The storming to the door scene was also two-fold imo. First, Sawyer thinks that there may be some other plot with Sayid, Jack, Kate and Hurley. He wonders if there is another agenda he isn't up on. But I think when he was questioning why she came back, it became heart breakingly personal. It was almost like he was asking, "Did you come back for me?"

If he really was asking that, we still don't know why he wants to know. here are a couple reasons I can think of. He might be afraid that Kate is still hung up on him. If that is true he might be thinking....

" I'm in love with Juliet. I'm sorry but I just can't betray her and we're over. We can be friends but that's all."

OR

" I still have feelings for you too and it's driving me crazy since I just spent the last 3 years getting over you. Now I'm with Juliet and it's complicated. Damnit why did you come back?"

We have no idea what Kate thinks although she is clearly uncomfortable talking about Juliet and Sawyer. this might be for a couple reasons, both which have been stated by other posters:

1. She doesn't trust Juliet and is afraid that her friend James is going to get hurt. But her feelings for James are over. She is just concerned as a friend.

2. She really is still in love with James and it's breaking her heart to see him with someone else.

These writers are very smart. They will not let either ship sink until the last episode. Here's why. This triangle/ quadrangle or whatever it is gives the show a portion of the ratings. They might have in mind what the final pairing is but they will leave breadcrumbs for both sides.

spoils for BSG finale below in case you havent seen it!!!!

I am a HUGE Battlestar Gallactica fan, thankfully I never shipped Kara and Lee. The Kara and Lee ship had a mass following and every reason to believe they were THE couple. In the end they waiting til the last episode to say their love was never meant to be. It came down to one person's interpretation, and that was the writer RDM I thought the last episode was fantastic, but for shippers it was devastating.

END BSG spoilers

Right now it feels like we are seeing everything through James and Juliet's eyes. but I think something is going on with Jack that we don't know and it may or may not involove Kate. Maybe he is being visited by Christian in his bungalo and he is working on another plan entirely.

Just to throw this out there.

Everything seems to be getting looked at from the perspective of who will Sawyer choose? Is Kate pinning for him?

What about Juliet? She had feelings for Jack before Sawyer. The whoel Juliet/Jack thing got cut short because of the strike. Her line in the Other Woman:

"JULIET: Because he thinks that I'm his. (Crying) And he knows how I feel about you."

It's not just Sawyer that's gone three years with out the person they use to care about. Juliet did tell Kate Jack kissed her, and it was to prove to himself that he didn't love someone else. Regardless of if Jack does or not, Juliet had some feelings for the guy, and maybe we would have seen more of that had the season not been interrupted.

Maybe she's the one who breaks Sawyer's heart? Could be she's the one who opts out of the relationship. I think things should stay as they are so the couples can build toward something, but who knows what wacky idea's the writers will throw out there.

I thought it was interesting that even in the forums Juliet's getting treated like the other woman :biggrin: She's a big girl, maybe there's some latent feelings for Jack that have sprung back up. The focus has been on Sawyer and Kate, we haven't seen any indication about a smoldering Jacket, but again, the writers seem to pull the quadrangle story out a hat with ideas listed in it on scraps of paper.

As much as I hate to accept it, I don't believe they're going to re-visit the Jack/Juliet romance. Which is a real shame, because Jack was always at his best in his scenes with Juliet...she was his one chance at becoming a likable character for me. Anyway, I believe Jack's romantic arc is finished. They'll gloss over his former relationship with Juliet, just as they fast-forwarded his off-Island relationship with Kate. IMO, his purpose is tied to the overall mythology of the show, and his destiny lies with the Island. (I also don't expect him to survive the series).

My hope for Juliet is that she gets home, somehow, to her sister. That's all she ever wanted, and being the strongest female character Lost has ever had, I think she MORE than deserves her happy ending. I believe her feelings for James are genuine, she does love him, but she may be more invested in their relationship than he is. It's clear that his heart is still with Kate, and these next several episodes are going to be torture for him as he tries to ignore that. However, it'll all boil over soon enough. His feelings for Kate will be the end of him and Juliet...I just hope she doesn't get all vengeful, or end up dying, before her chance to get home.

I thought it was interesting that even in the forums Juliet's getting treated like the other woman :biggrin: She's a big girl, maybe there's some latent feelings for Jack that have sprung back up. The focus has been on Sawyer and Kate, we haven't seen any indication about a smoldering Jacket, but again, the writers seem to pull the quadrangle story out a hat with ideas listed in it on scraps of paper.


I don't see Jack as part of any romance actually. I feel Juliet is still capable of surprises and I don't trust her. I still haven't forgotten Sawyer's comment to Kate back in 'Glass Ballarina' when he said that the blonde woman would have shot her, no problem. That woman is still there and I think we may just see some of that coldness come out of Juliet at some point, that part of her is just lying dormant in the 70's. I believe she is more capable of cold killings than Kate is. If they some how make it back to present time I can see Juliet doing anything to get off that island....anything.

Which is a real shame, because Jack was always at his best in his scenes with Juliet...
:eek2:sorry!

My hope for Juliet is that she gets home, somehow, to her sister.
i must agree with this. i think that everyone that wants to leave the island should be able to IF they don't die beforehand. and the ones who would like to stay, please raise your hands and......stay.

Long term -

Could Kate be pregnant from her liaison with Jack ? Without going into too much detail, i think there are definite possibilities where that could lead to, tieing in with things we know already about the island.

absolutely! and i think that juliet could be as well. you have two different women getting preggers at the same time except one was on the island and the other off.

Long term -

Could Kate be pregnant from her liaison with Jack ? Without going into too much detail, i think there are definite possibilities where that could lead to, tieing in with things we know already about the island.



One scenario I can see playing out is after finding her way back to Sawyer either at the end of this season or the beginning of next season, the timing would be right for Kate to find out she's pregnant later in the season (this is assuming the writer's go with a pregnancy) and then not know who's child she is carrying. It could be particularly poignant if one of the guys dies at the end of the series.

I don't think they will have Kate settling on any one guy because he impregnates her, especially in the case of Jack and her a one night stand with him.

One scenario I can see playing out is after finding her way back to Sawyer either at the end of this season or the beginning of next season, the timing would be right for Kate to find out she's pregnant later in the season (this is assuming the writer's go with a pregnancy) and then not know who's child she is carrying. It could be particularly poignant if one of the guys dies at the end of the series.

I don't think they will have Kate settling on any one guy because he impregnates her, especially in the case of Jack and her a one night stand with him.

I personally intensely dislike the "who's the daddy" dramas and I really hope they don't go there with Kate especially. Of course I don't think she'll find her way back to Sawyer but rather back to Jack and I don't agree that its fair to characterize her time with Jack as one night stand although I understand why there are those who hope that's what it turns out to be...

I do think a pregnacy for Kate is likely in the offing and I wouldn't be surprised if one was planned for Juliet as well given the foreshadowing of her conversation with Ethan's mom about when the time is right.

I'm strongly of the opinion the pregnancy and conception and death issues won't be addressed until next season but I think they'll be at the core of the mythology of the show and one of the last reveals and thats part of the reason the quadrangle has been created and carried as far as it has

squid

I don't think they will have Kate settling on any one guy because he impregnates her, especially in the case of Jack and her a one night stand with him.

Skaters this one night stand thing is heavy handed and goofy. I get that you want to minimize the fact that Kate and Jack had sex before returning to the island and, fair enough, whatever, but Jack and Kate didn't have a one night stand. If I go to a bar, buy a girl a few drinks, we have a few laughs, I take her home and do her, then proceed to never call her or see her again, that's a one night stand. If I get together with my ex fiance and we do it that's ex sex. Jack and Kate had ex sex, not a one night stand. Why not call it what it was because calling it anything else doesn't make it that and it's not like calling it ex sex is so great anyway.

I personally intensely dislike the "who's the daddy" dramas and I really hope they don't go there with Kate especially. Of course I don't think she'll find her way back to Sawyer but rather back to Jack and I don't agree that its fair to characterize her time with Jack as one night stand although I understand why there are those who hope that's what it turns out to be...

I do think a pregnacy for Kate is likely in the offing and I wouldn't be surprised if one was planned for Juliet as well given the foreshadowing of her conversation with Ethan's mom about when the time is right.

I'm strongly of the opinion the pregnancy and conception and death issues won't be addressed until next season but I think they'll be at the core of the mythology of the show and one of the last reveals and thats part of the reason the quadrangle has been created and carried as far as it has

squid

I agree that a whose the daddy storyline would be boring. Didn't we already do that with Sun? I agree that pregnancy is core to the island mythology but can't we have other people pregnant, like Amy? I just don't want to see either of the main ladies pregnant with anyone's baby.

The only clue as to why I could see Kate getting pregnant at some point during the series would only be due to the emphasis to her questionable fertility. She had one false alarm with Kevin, and the other was a near fluke, given the prognosis that even impotent men create super swimmers. The other clue that makes me accept the possibility that Kate could become pregnant is the complete randomness of her encounter with Jack. Maybe the next episode will shed some light on her state of mind there, but the whole thing just screamed "window of opportunity" for the writers to time it in a way that would work for S6, and tie the implications of it with the whole "pregnant women die" plot they still need to address.

And I wholeheartedly agree that a "who's the baby daddy" storyline would be frustrating and sad...as in 'pathetic'. :drowsy:

If I go to a bar, buy a girl a few drinks, we have a few laughs, I take her home and do her, then proceed to never call her or see her again, that's a one night stand


FREIGHTER!!!! :blush:you're making me blush!

If I get together with my ex fiance and we do it that's ex sex. Jack and Kate had ex sex, not a one night stand

:don-t_mention:i've had ex-sex. it is definitely not a one night stand.


And I wholeheartedly agree that a "who's the baby daddy" storyline would be frustrating and sad...as in 'pathetic'


not to mention, sl*tty.

Considering Kate's behaviour after that night of 'weird depressed' sex (TM Evi), I think it's about as close as we've ever seen Kate have a one night stand on the show. In Outlaws she said she'd never had one, and yes, it's possible to have one night stands with ex lovers and wind up with the morning after regrets. It happens all the time, in reality, and in fiction.

Maybe we are just warring over semantics. *shrug*.

I do like how Juliet's talk with Kate was handled. I'd prefer no silly high school mudfights anymore, now that Kate's matured over the past few years. Interesting though, how not fine with it Kate appears to be, even though she's trying to be cool about it. :biggrin:

Yeah, I was dreading a full on spat between these two, which would have seriously detracted from both characters. So, whew!

I do hope no one's pregnant though. Seems to me it'd slow things down. I want more action, damn it! :D And I don't mean of the bedroom kind!

juliet and kate were troopers. juliet knowing how sawyer feels about kate even though he says things are fine. kate knowing that she's walked into "their" world and pretty much is like a guest. if she loves sawyer, then she needed to step back and have it develop naturally.

If you are broken up with your ex and you have sex with him/her after a while. It is a one night stand with your ex. So, we are arguing semantics. The thing is, Kate had sex with her ex and seemed to regret and/or be uncomfortable about it the next morning. It was not even a drunken after-the-bar kind of sex. It was depressed sex. I need this to make me feel alive. It was desperate and Evangeline acted it out very well.

In Catch 22, she had sex with Sawyer because she was jealous seeing Jack with another woman. Jack had another woman in his "club". The difference here is, she did not seem to regret that one because she went back for more a couple of nights later, visually presented by the " I gotta take a pee, oh you are so romantic and the cute nose twitch good night kiss".

Bottomline-when Kate is upset, she is not above using sex to make her feel better.

In Catch 22, she had sex with Sawyer because she was jealous seeing Jack with another woman. Jack had another woman in his "club". The difference here is, she did not seem to regret that one because she went back for more a couple of nights later, visually presented by the " I gotta take a pee, oh you are so romantic and the cute nose twitch good night kiss".

Bottomline-when Kate is upset, she is not above using sex to make her feel better.

so you are admitting that she could still be having sex with jack since she's still depressed about aaron, seeing that it's only been a few days. she used sawyer to feel better, so now she's using jack to feel better, right?

so you are admitting that she could still be having sex with jack since she's still depressed about aaron, seeing that it's only been a few days. she used sawyer to feel better, so now she's using jack to feel better, right?

N0. She had sex with Jack before they came to the Island. That is all they have shown and implied. They have done absolutely nothing to imply that they are still having sex and judging by Kate's reaction the morning after and on the plane, I doubt they are having sex. I think we should stick to discussing what we have been shown rather than what we imagine/wish :)

i don't think so. we can speculate all we want. you are speculating that kate wants sawyer and that she will end up him. i am speculating that she's with jack because i am speculating that she is at his house. she may be at his house for other reasons pertaining to other threads. the quadrangle is a speculation other than sawyer and juliet being together. they have said their ILY's and that is the only concrete evidence that we have. everything else is our own opinions.

in fact, saying that kate slept with jack out of desperation is yours and other's opinions. mine and others are different.

when and if kate says i love you to jack or sawyer, then that is when we will have the concrete evidence.

i don't think so. we can speculate all we want. you are speculating that kate wants sawyer and that she will end up him. i am speculating that she's with jack because i am speculating that she is at his house. she may be at his house for other reasons pertaining to other threads. the quadrangle is a speculation other than sawyer and juliet being together. they have said their ILY's and that is the only concrete evidence that we have. everything else is our own opinions.

in fact, saying that kate slept with jack out of desperation is yours and other's opinions. mine and others are different.

when and if kate says i love you to jack or sawyer, then that is when we will have the concrete evidence.

I am not speculating that Kate wants Sawyer. Kate wants Sawyer. That is what we have been shown.

I am speculating from what we have been shown through out the series, she will end up with Sawyer. Some others speculate that she will end up with Jack. I have said I do not know.

You can speculate that she is currently with Jack but they have not shown you anything to lead to that speculation. If you want to see the 3.16 sex as a romantic make-up sex that reunited them, that is fine. The lead up, the make-up, the darkness, the dialogue and everything they visually presented described anything but loving romantic reunification sex.

The sex in catch22 was depicted lighter even with the reason behind the jealousy sex.


The quadrangle is not a speculation. Kate and Sawyer had a relationship before they were separated without ENDING that relationship. Jack and Kate had a relationship off the Island which ENDED but the sex before the return, whatever the circumstances may lead Jack to believe that he can make it work again. Sawyer and Juliet are having a relationship but Sawyer's ex is back and so is Juliet's old crush. The quadrangle is very much alive. It is not a speculation. It has been shown to be alive. At least the Kate/Sawyer/Juliet part of it. I am sure Jack will be thrown in soon.

There is a lot to talk about from what we are shown that can lead to speculation. I am only saying that I prefer not to engage in discussion about things that were not shown or implied.

That is what we have been shown.


how?
3.16 sex as a romantic make-up sex that reunited them

nope. i don't think for a moment that it is make up sex. i think she turned to him because she loves him and needed to be with him, but i don't agree that they are together in a relationship. yes, i am speculating that they are still having sex. i think that in a relationship, a real one, that they will need to further delve into what caused them to fall apart, trust. if and when they feel that they can trust each other, then they will reunite. but that, again, is what i think.

i know that the other ship thinks that she loves sawyer, and i'm ready for the answers along with all of them.

when she answers whomever why she came back, and she doesn't say sawyer, then i will think that sawyer and kate are over. but she won't answer the right way, no matter what. then the writers wouldn't be having another hayday yanking the ships along!

zoriah put it well last week that right when kate says, i don't know why they came back, but i know why i did" that something would happen to keep her from answering. and she was right! the writers love to do this to us, and why would they ever stop now!;)

how?


nope. i don't think for a moment that it is make up sex. i think she turned to him because she loves him and needed to be with him, but i don't agree that they are together in a relationship. yes, i am speculating that they are still having sex. i think that in a relationship, a real one, that they will need to further delve into what caused them to fall apart, trust. if and when they feel that they can trust each other, then they will reunite. but that, again, is what i think.

i know that the other ship thinks that she loves sawyer, and i'm ready for the answers along with all of them.

when she answers whomever why she came back, and she doesn't say sawyer, then i will think that sawyer and kate are over. but she won't answer the right way, no matter what. then the writers wouldn't be having another hayday yanking the ships along!

zoriah put it well last week that right when kate says, i don't know why they came back, but i know why i did" that something would happen to keep her from answering. and she was right! the writers love to do this to us, and why would they ever stop now!;)


I am not going to start a shipping war by detailing exactly how they have shown that Kate wants Sawyer. You watch the show. You know.

You have speculated from the 3.16 sex that she loves and trusts Jack and they are still having sex and they will work it out. That is fine. I think different.

We are all speculating on why Kate came back and I do not think it has anything to do with Sawyer because we have been shown that she thought Sawyer was dead. Locke may have told her he was not dead but since when did she start trusting Locke? Or Ben? Jack told her he is not dead. She said but he is "gone". Just like Sawyer said "she is just gone". All Kate knows is that he jumped out of the plane into an ocean to swim to an Island which she later saw disappear. He was gone. Dead. Gone. He had disappeared.

Even Hurley thought he was dead. They made sure they panned to Kate to show her smile when Hurley said "You are alive". They did not pan to Jack. The camera focused on Kate's reaction to that comment.

If you want to conclude that Kate not returning for Sawyer means they are over, that is fine too. I do not think so because she can not be returning for someone she believed dead but hoped alive. She has seen him now and they have taken time to show us that she still has feelings for him. What those feelings are, I am sure we will soon find out. I think it will be very telling if Kate tells Sawyer about Aaron which she refused to tell Jack. She has not told anyone anything, yet.

Once again, I prefer to focus on what they are showing me rather than fanfiction.

They have done absolutely nothing to imply that they are still having sex and judging by Kate's reaction the morning after and on the plane, I doubt they are having sex. I think we should stick to discussing what we have been shown rather than what we imagine/wish :)
Precisely. Kate was quite clear to Jack: "We're on the same plane...that doesn't make us 'together'." IMO, Jate is on the backburner for the remainder of this season...and perhaps even the remainder of the series, considering how few episodes there are left. We know from Darlton that Kate will become part of the "new triangle" with Sawyer and Juliet. We also know that she was "still pining" for Sawyer while she was off-Island, and we should begin to see that in the coming episodes, as she keeps her promise to him and visits Cass & Clem.

Jack's romantic storyline seems to be ended. He failed with Sarah, he failed with Kate, he failed with Juliet...he failed with every woman we've ever seen him with. I just don't believe Jack is meant to be viewed as a "romantic hero". His destiny is tied to the bigger picture, to the mythology of the Island...not to any romantic entanglements or women. We've seen Jack finally learning to let go of his control issues, leaving the Dharma reins in Sawyer's hands, and he's now a man of Faith, waiting for his destiny to steer him. Therefore, I'd actually be surprised if the writers try & ramp the Jate or Jacket relationships back up before the end of the show. I think they'll be given adequate closure of feelings for all 3 characters (certainly Jacket, since it has yet to be addressed)...and I also think Jack will die in the end.

So that leaves Sawyer as the "romantic hero" of Lost, and he is now torn between two women. His soulmate has pretty much been illustrated as Kate, along the course of the entire series...but his feelings for Juliet are strong and genuine. That will likely play out through the remainder of the series, with Sawyer/Kate together in the end (providing they both survive) and Juliet either dying (as her name suggests) or finally making it off the Island and back to her sister.

in fact, saying that kate slept with jack out of desperation is yours and other's opinions. mine and others are different.

We also have Evi's comments about it being "weird" sex, which I don't think supports a reconciliation.

We also have Evi's comments about it being "weird" sex, which I don't think supports a reconciliation.

Didn't she use the word "depressed" as well?

I am not going to start a shipping war by detailing exactly how they have shown that Kate wants Sawyer. You watch the show. You know.


i am not starting a shipping war. i am asking you a question. i would not ask you if i knew. so when you say i know, you are wrong. i do not. i know that kate had deep feelings for sawyer. but you're saying that she loves him NOW. and that we have seen this in this season, season 5.


I don't think supports a reconciliation


;)and i said that:


but i don't agree that they are together in a relationship.

Didn't she use the word "depressed" as well?

Sorry, I don't recall. In any event, her depression was evident as she was visibly devastated by whatever happened concerning Aaron.

I don't understand why anyone would be enthusiastic about that sex scene in the first place.. Sawyer was trashed for having sex with her when she was crying, in spite of showing concern and asking her several times about what was wrong. Jack showed no concern - he just jumped right in like a high-schooler figuring he just got lucky. Ugh.

A one-night stand with an ex, followed by an awkward and hasty exit, and a statement about being in the same place not being the same as being "together". That seems a long way from signaling a reconciliation to me.

Maybe the next episode will shed some light on her state of mind there, but the whole thing just screamed "window of opportunity" for the writers to time it in a way that would work for S6, and tie the implications of it with the whole "pregnant women die" plot they still need to address.



To address the killer pregnancies Kate would have to get pregnant on the island, not off.

One thing I was just thinking about is the whole whatever happened happened, could mean that Kate will get pregnant from Jack because that is what always happened. I see a lot of angst in that because she is in love with Sawyer and chose Sawyer on the island but because of the whole whatever happened happened situation she wasn't able to become pregnant by Sawyer, I don't think she is infertile. She was always meant to get pregnant during her one night stand with Jack. Kate wanted a baby with Sawyer, we saw this in 'Eggtown', she has never been shown wanting anyone else's baby. She can't change the fact that no matter what she does Sawyer won't be the father of her baby, at least her first one, even though she wanted him to be. You can't go back and change the father of your baby, because that conception happened whether you want it or not.

I'm still not sure I buy the argument for "Kate is pregnant!" At first it seemed obvious that that would be the purpose of the implied sex-scene with Jack...but now, it seems so trite. She becomes pregnant on the very night she loses her son? Is that supposed to be some compensation for losing Aaron? :shrug: No, I think it makes more sense that the "weird" sex was simply a final hurrah for that particular pairing...one more example of their relationship painted in darkness, wrapped in lies, and completely unhealthy for both of them.

And really, the killer pregnancy storyline wouldn't be applicable to either Kate or Juliet at this point, since they're in the 70's, pre-killer pregnancies. Amy carried Ethan to term with no difficulty, and he was born fine. So even if Juliet or Kate are pregnant...what would be the purpose? Unless Juliet is pregnant now and they make it back to present time before too long...then her pregnancy would be in danger.

I'm still not sure I buy the argument for "Kate is pregnant!" At first it seemed obvious that that would be the purpose of the implied sex-scene with Jack...but now, it seems so trite. She becomes pregnant on the very night she loses her son? Is that supposed to be some compensation for losing Aaron? :shrug: No, I think it makes more sense that the "weird" sex was simply a final hurrah for that particular pairing...one more example of their relationship painted in darkness, wrapped in lies, and completely unhealthy for both of them.



I agree. I've never really thought she would be pregnant, but a lot do so I can see something along the lines of my previous post if the writer's go with a pregnancy.

I really liked how Juliet said that she was glad she didn't have to tell Kate, because she wasn't sure how to say it without it sounding like she was asking her to back off. Which is cool... b/c she got to tell her to back off ;) but in a different way. But make it clear that James and Kate can still be friends.


i thought it was a good scene between kate and juliet. juliet didn't get nasty and actually looked like she was very uncomfortable. but she did have to broach the subject. she tried it out on sawyer and he was trying to make her feel better, but i couldn't shake the feeling that he was worried about the DI scene falling apart, not their relationship. i don't think he's reading juliet right, or he doesn't want to go there yet. poor juliet. i really felt sorry for her at the window. and with the look that sawyer gave the gals while talking, it looked like he was uncomfortable. i think he needs to deal with the subject. even if he's lying, he needs to tell juliet everything between them is OK, until he truly figures what is what with kate. there's nothing worse than uncertainty in a relationship, especially with someone you love. and juliet seems to really love sawyer.


Without too much shippery annoyingness, I hope we can debate the interesting scenes from tonight's episode

i just read this! impossible!:wink1:

Jack's romantic storyline seems to be ended. He failed with Sarah, he failed with Kate, he failed with Juliet...he failed with every woman we've ever seen him with. I just don't believe Jack is meant to be viewed as a "romantic hero". His destiny is tied to the bigger picture, to the mythology of the Island...not to any romantic entanglements or women. We've seen Jack finally learning to let go of his control issues, leaving the Dharma reins in Sawyer's hands, and he's now a man of Faith, waiting for his destiny to steer him.

I definitely agree, Sawyer is the romantic hero on the show. Jack's relationships, romantic or not, continued to crash because of his issues. He is only now starting to work through them so could he finally get it right when he succeeds and becomes a better man? That might be what the writers are going for. You never know. I strongly believe both Skate and Jate will come back in season 6 with a vengeance.
This season we are going to get little teasing moments between Skate just like we've had in the past few episodes but nothing major until S6. Mark my words :P

I'm not sure if Kate is pregnant or not. If she is, it would explain and give a purpose to the 3.16 sex scene which was really strange all around to the point that Evi went to the writers to get it deleted. It's one of those "huh?" head scratching moments. Taking into consideration Evi's surprise when Kimmel brought it up, I think the discovery it will happen next season (If she indeed is preg).

To address the killer pregnancies Kate would have to get pregnant on the island, not off.

One thing I was just thinking about is the whole whatever happened happened, could mean that Kate will get pregnant from Jack because that is what always happened. I see a lot of angst in that because she is in love with Sawyer and chose Sawyer on the island but because of the whole whatever happened happened situation she wasn't able to become pregnant by Sawyer, I don't think she is infertile. She was always meant to get pregnant during her one night stand with Jack. Kate wanted a baby with Sawyer, we saw this in 'Eggtown', she has never been shown wanting anyone else's baby. She can't change the fact that no matter what she does Sawyer won't be the father of her baby, at least her first one, even though she wanted him to be. You can't go back and change the father of your baby, because that conception happened whether you want it or not.

An egg can live in the fallopian tube for up to 48 hours while sperm can survive inside a woman for up to 7 days. She could've been impregnated in the last dying gasps of that 48-hour window, and she was on the island within those 48 hours. All's I'm saying is that it's not wholly impossible for her to have gotten pregnant while on the island, if she turns out to be pregnant at all.

You may be taking the whole "whatever happened, happened" line a bit too far in applying it with Kate's false alarm with Sawyer. It's speculative whether she even wanted a baby, or whether she even wanted a baby with Sawyer. If anything, I think the plot line was solely meant for the audience to question whether Kate is able to conceive in the first place. The fact that she didn't, even with Sawyer's super sperm, makes us doubt whether she truly can. Jin, who was deemed impotent, magically grew a bunch...that's saying something.

The fact that she didn't, even with Sawyer's super sperm, makes us doubt whether she truly can. Jin, who was deemed impotent, magically grew a bunch...that's saying something.

remember, girl scout, that previews of lost sometmes show the word DESTINY across the screen. since this show's theme is destiny and fate, it probably was fate and destiny that jin became fertile while on the island. so, it would seem that even though sawyer and kate had sex quite a bit, it wasn't their destiny for her to become pregnant at that time, if at all. not to mention that it doesn't matter how many times you have sex, if it's not the right time for the woman, it ain't gonna happen! i have a friend that has a son and has been trying to get preggers for 20 months for her second time. if it happens, it happens, if not, it won't.;)

This is all still speculation right? I hope there is no spoiler truth in all this pregnancy stuff. I try to stay spoiler free except for the previews.

If we are just speculating, then what about the idea that Kate needed to be Claire's proxy, or there needed to be a pregnant woman on the plane? Once again, ugh I hope not.

I do not think that the one night stand/ ex sex scene with Jack and Kate is the close of their romantic relationship. Even if the writers choose to let Jack out of the triangle to go on to other plots, I think they need to at least have a conversation. Right now I never saw any form of closure in their relationship, everything just seems to be hanging.

remember, girl scout, that previews of lost sometmes show the word DESTINY across the screen. since this show's theme is destiny and fate, it probably was fate and destiny that jin became fertile while on the island. so, it would seem that even though sawyer and kate had sex quite a bit, it wasn't their destiny for her to become pregnant at that time, if at all. not to mention that it doesn't matter how many times you have sex, if it's not the right time for the woman, it ain't gonna happen! .;)

All it takes is one time. ;) Yeah, and the kicker is that Jack's swimmers didn't have to be "enabled" or anything. Nope...quite ordinary, in fact. :D

TP - purely just speculation, don't worry. I can't 100% say I want Kate to be pregnant either. If she is though, there will probably be a good reason behind it. Er...hopefully, you know? Not just for soap opera kicks. :drowsy:

I agree with your Jack/Kate scenario. They're definitely in some sort of limbo. But I think a lot of that could be due to both of them having their own reasons for being on the island and both just wanting to get on the ball with that. The writers aren't gonna give their original pairing such a bizarre, unfulfilling closure such as that...no way. :cool:

All this talk about original pairing. Have we all forgotten that Jack was supposed to die in the pilot? He was supposed to be the one hanging in the tree. Therefore, when Lost was conceived, Jack and Kate were not the so called original pairing. The way the first season pans out, Sawyer was always in the picture as it seemed Sayid and/or Charlie for Kate. I remember in the commentary, Damon saying they had to add the scene of Jack trying to save the Marshall because in the original script, he had died already, while the rest had gone off on the hike and had set up camp for the night. So that interaction b/w Sawyer and Kate on that hike was always in the original script. So, they always meant some kind of triangle or quadrangle and Jack was not originally part of it. When the network asked the writers to change it around, Jack lived. What do they cut to during the stitching scene when Kate first meets Jack? Sawyer. Smoking a cigarette. Either in that episode or pilot part 2, we get the first signs of Sawyer and Kate, when they go on that hike with Sayid. I think we are all aware of their interaction on that journey. In my opinion, there was/is no such thing as Lost's original pairing. Everything points to the fact that they always intended a tri/quad/octagon or whatever. If Kate had been left the hero, she would have been in the middle. OH, wait a minute, just like she is now :) They just changed the guys around.

i do agree with that. they didn't think that jack would be on for long, making kate the lead. jj likes to have females lead his show, felicity, alias and fringe. but someone watched the pilot with him and said OMG you cannot kill jack. he's the hero. but when i started the show, fresh, just like everyone else, i thought i saw the chemistry between jack and kate whether they were going to kill jack or not. i did see the interaction between her and sawyer, sparring, if you will. they are both from similar backgrounds and she has known and been with men like sawyer. so, i'm not saying that they were not fun to watch together, but like you said, he was not the one they originally wanted her to be paired with. it was sayid. there is chemistry between jack and kate and kate and sawyer. there wouldn't be this strong triangle without it. she's been with both men. and now, we wait to see whom she wants for the rest of her life.

Even if the writers choose to let Jack out of the triangle to go on to other plots, I think they need to at least have a conversation. Right now I never saw any form of closure in their relationship, everything just seems to be hanging.

They kinda had one on the plane. Kate informed him that they're not together. She couldn't be bothered to sit with him during the big, scary plane crash. Hell, she could barely look him in the eye, and was clearly uncomfortable about having jumped him for "weird" sex the night before.

If the writers want to re-visit the Jate "romance", then I'm sure they'll manage. But after everything we've been shown to date, I don't see how they could make it believable. They were engaged and somewhat happy in their little glass-house-built-on-lies, but the mere mention of Sawyer's name brought it crashing down. Kate chose keeping Sawyer's secret, and Aaron's well-being, over Jack. She couldn't even be bothered to try and help Jack clean himself up & face his demons. They've been shown as not really having each others' backs when it matters most (her abandoning Jack to his drug addiction, him betraying Kate & Aaron to Ben at the marina.)

we'll see with this episode.


jack refuses to help ben, but in a spoiler long ago, i read that he does at the last moment. i don't think anyone could convince jack to see the light other than kate.

Kate has never been able to get Jack to see the light of any situation. From moving to the caves up to his decision to go back to the Island he has done the opposite of Kates advise. She was not even able to get her own fiance to trust her when she asked and begged for it.

wellllll, as much as i love kate, and i adore her, i didn't agree with her not telling jack about sawyer's promise. she said, he wouldn't want me to tell. sawyer didn't say to kate not to tell. there wasn't that much time in the whisper. anyway, keeping a secret like she's very good at, is a total trust issue, and i agree that they needed to part ways if sawyer was still going to come between them.

now, the next step is to end the tirangle. go with sawyer or go with jack. let's end it all so that we can enjoy the rest of the show with the fabulous story telling!

now, the next step is to end the tirangle. go with sawyer or go with jack. let's end it all so that we can enjoy the rest of the show with the fabulous story telling!

Yup. Let's move a relationship forward, whichever it ends up; lets not just show progression of characters. There's been good growth on an individual basis for a lot of the losties, why can't they do that with one of these romantic pairings? Or both?

it seems that everything just started up as soon as the hugs were over, no? sawyer and jack are STILL fighting each other. they have both grown while apart, but get those two kids together and a battle of the best insues. kate's grieving, which i sure am glad she is. makes it more believable. so, her walking around like a zombie and uttering sentences here and there seems probable. but with this episode coming up, i'm hoping she gets some action and pulls out of her funk. she needs to snap to and tell these two boys to pull out of their drama and work together. they didn't come back to the island for this.

This should be Kate's episode to showcase her change. We have to learn at some point what she did with Aaron.

exactly. and i'm betting on it that he's safe and sound....for now. with ben running around all over the place, aaron may pop up on the island someday.

exactly. and i'm betting on it that he's safe and sound....for now. with ben running around all over the place, aaron may pop up on the island someday.Yeah, and w/ the time travel stuff, I keep thinking about how when Aaron was an infant only Sawyer's voice could calm him down. Did he "recognize" Sawyer's voice from the future? And if so what will Sawyer's involvement be? (I don't want Sawyer & Kate together raising him...btw...let's think of some other explanation!!! :rolleyes:)

that is a very good theory, bunnies. who knows what's going to happen in the future on this show. i do know that if it was so urgent to have the o6 return, then why was it OK that aaron didn't come? i'm just thinking that ben will make sure that he appears down the road. big boy or little boy. it has always been my hope that dear aaron is reunited with dear dead or alive claire, at least one more time!

and sawyer does have a distincive voice. i loved it when charlie wanted him to read so that the baby would stop crying. i always liked the theory that "they all raised aaron". that's why i always thought it understandable that the o5/kate would want to keep aaron with them/her.