When Richard took Ben into the temple last night, and made the comment about "lost innocence", it reminded me of the biblical Garden of Eden, when Adam and Eve, in a quest to transcend what they were, ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and thus knew both good and evil, i.e. "lost their innocence."

Furthermore, we already know there is an "Adam and Eve" on the Island.

Also, I think we can agree that it's becoming more apparent, that the Island is a significant place in regards to afterlife. (I think that claim is valid, but nothing more specific can be asserted at this point.) And it's interesting that in the Judeo-Christian eschatological imagination (in the biblical canon, at least... thereafter people start to run wild with speculation about heaven that has more to do with Hellenistic ideas than the Bible) the end is portrayed as being like the beginning in certain ways (you could even say that history is a time loop of sorts. Or maybe that it's cyclical, would be a better way to put it.), that is, Edenic imagery is used to describe the eschatological paradise.

Now, before people run away with this take it literally, I'm *NOT* saying that the Island is *literally* the Garden of Eden!!!!! I merely think it's interesting and insightful to the narrative imagination of the writers that this Edenic imagery is present.

Thoughts?

When Richard took Ben into the temple last night, and made the comment about "lost innocence", it reminded me of the biblical Garden of Eden, when Adam and Eve, in a quest to transcend what they were, ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and thus knew both good and evil, i.e. "lost their innocence."
Furthermore, we already know there is an "Adam and Eve" on the Island....Edenic imagery is used to describe the eschatological paradise...
I merely think it's interesting and insightful to the narrative imagination of the writers that this Edenic imagery is present.

Very interesting thought. I like the idea of how knowledge/experience of both good and evil tarnishes innocence.
There's another thread comparing the effect of the Temple/Smokey on Rousseau's team - they certainly had knowledge of the island and Smokey too.

yea well remembered. and guess what lives in the temple, smoky, the big smoke snake. does this mean smoky is gunna be the devil in disguise or whatever the snake was in the garden of eden?

I believe that I posted a similar comment in another thread shortly after the discovery of "Adam and Eve". When God cast Adam and Eve from the garden, He placed a guardian to prevent them from ever returning to the garden. I think that Smokie would fit this role nicely. As stated by the thread orginator, "Edenic imagery" is everywhere and may be a possible reason for the mysteries of the island.

In the words of Bob Dylan:

"As friends and other strangers
From their fates try to resign
Leaving men wholly, totally free
To do anything they wish to do but die
And there are no trials inside the Gates of Eden"

I'm a firm believer that the island is literally the Garden of Eden -- the birthplace of humanity. I'm not sure whether Smokie is the serpent or the angel guarding the garden from man's return; he could fit both roles to some degree.

I like the Garden theory, but as far as I'm concerned if the garden does exist, it exists on a plane completely inaccessible to mortal humans. Maybe God specifically allowed the Oceanic dudes etc into the Garden, but that would really just raise more questions than it would answer.

Why them? Why allow them to come and then kill a load of them? Why allow the likes of Ben to come? Why would a divine angelic guardian or a demonic serpent be repulsed by a sonic fence? (to name but a select few)

Also, the statue...where would that fit in? The statue looked Egyptian, like a statue of Ra or something, in any case it most certainly didn't look like the works of any sort of Abrahamic religions...so why would God allow the statue of a false god built in his own back yard? (Even if he does knock it down later)

I like the Garden theory, but as far as I'm concerned if the garden does exist, it exists on a plane completely inaccessible to mortal humans. Maybe God specifically allowed the Oceanic dudes etc into the Garden, but that would really just raise more questions than it would answer.

Why them? Why allow them to come and then kill a load of them? Why allow the likes of Ben to come? Why would a divine angelic guardian or a demonic serpent be repulsed by a sonic fence? (to name but a select few)

Also, the statue...where would that fit in? The statue looked Egyptian, like a statue of Ra or something, in any case it most certainly didn't look like the works of any sort of Abrahamic religions...so why would God allow the statue of a false god built in his own back yard? (Even if he does knock it down later)

Well, I think the idea would be that the Genesis account of the Garden of Eden would be just one of many possible perspectives on the factual place. It describes the guardian of Eden as "cherubim"; but what that word was originally envisioned as is anyone's guess. It wouldn't necessarily have to be something supernatural.

I've been on the same page as P99 for a while now. I think Smokey is Melchizedek

- Claimed to be immortal. Melchizedek (18th century BC), a priest. According to some translations of Hebrews 7 "Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he (Melchizedek) remains a priest forever."

- According to the Dead Sea Scrolls, "Melchizedek will proclaim the "Day of Atonement" and he will atone for the people who are predestined to him. He also will judge the peoples."

- Melchizedek was taken by the archangel Gabriel (Michael in some manuscripts) to the Garden of Eden and was thus preserved from the Deluge without having to be in Noah's Ark.

- The burial place of four Biblical couples: (1) Adam and Eve; (2) Abraham and Sarah; (3) Isaac and Rebekah; (4) Jacob and Leah, is supposedly the Cave of Patriarchs.

- In Judaism, according to the midrash, the Patriarchs were buried in the cave because the cave is the threshold to the Garden of Eden.

- God loves you as he loved Jacob.


This theory with some links, and a wild stab at tying Alpert to Smokey can be found HERE (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=111051)

When Richard took Ben into the temple last night, and made the comment about "lost innocence", it reminded me of the biblical Garden of Eden, when Adam and Eve, in a quest to transcend what they were, ate of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and thus knew both good and evil, i.e. "lost their innocence."
In this logic, the Island would not be the Garden of Eden, but rather, it would be the land "East of Eden", where Adam and Eve were banished after breaking their contract with God. Here are some interesting verses from the KJV of Genesis that I find quite appropriate to this situation. I've edited out some of the material that wasn't really pertinent:

Genesis 3:16-19, 22-24:

16: Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children...
17: And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18: Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19: In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
22: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23: Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24: So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.