You would think after all her has done that Ben was a goner with Smokey. While Ben didn't cause Alex's death directly, I think his words of abandonment and saying that she means nothing to him would make Smokey judge him more harshly. Also he would have killed Penny be it not for Desmond.

Could it be that making Ben listen to Locke is worse punishment than death for Ben??

I think Ben is paying for the sin of letting his daughter die every day that he lives. Thats why his response to Ben "It let me live" didn't sound very happy. I don't know if following John is a worse punishment, but I think living with his memories is.

I believe Ben showed geniune remorse during his "judgement" and therefore, was given a stay of execution.

I also don't believe he would have gone through with his promise to kill Penny; it seemed to me he hesitated momentarily when little Charlie popped out of the boat's cabin and I was reminded of the scene when he spared Danielle's life. Desmond jumped him during his brief contemplation.

I honestly have no idea. As I just said in another thread, smokey got on Eko's case just for doing some gray-area things that were ultimately for the greater good. Ben blasts a guy in the chest on the way to be judged but the monster seems to focus on Alex's death above all else. Why? I would almost think that Ben/Eko/anyone only see what they personally feel guilty over, but if that were the case Eko would have seen nothing, as ultimately he felt zero guilt over his killings.

Confuses the hell out of me.

Simply, the island isn't done with him yet. On the other hand, I think it was a nice contrast from Eko. Eko was not sorry for what he had done and smokey killed him. Ben was sorry and the island let him live.

I thought it was just the opposite. When Eko was judged, he said he did not apologize for what he had done and he became dog food. Ben apologized (repented) and was spared. As for all the other things he has done, they were in service of the island. At least that's my simplistic take on it.

ETA: jedimaster and I must have been posting at the same time :-)

Yes, Ben hesitated, then was jumped by Des. I don't think he could have gone through with it.
He saved Danielle, spared the baby, but why did he take the baby in the first place? And he did warn Danielle to stay away from the whispers.
He seemed truly remorseful...
We'll see...

Simply, the island isn't done with him yet. On the other hand, I think it was a nice contrast from Eko. Eko was not sorry for what he had done and smokey killed him. Ben was sorry and the island let him live.


I couldn't have said it better myself. i was thinking the same exact thing. Ben has bigger fish to fry in episodes to come.

Ben seemed truly remorseful about Alex' death, which is why he lived unlike Eko, who wasn't remorseful. Also a good possibility is that the Island simply isn't done with him yet.

I highly doubt he would have killed Penny if it wasn't for Des, he already had his gun down after little Charlie appeared and before Des jumped him.

i think this episode finally answered the question of who is the good guy between Widmore and Ben, in preparation for the upcoming battle between the two sides. Ben was very sympathetic here, in both scenes where he couldn't murder because of the children. although he probably became jaded along the way because of the position of power, at a younger age he really seemed like an idealist, and that he really did have the islands best interest at heart throughout all of his decisions.

i think this episode finally answered the question of who is the good guy between Widmore and Ben, in preparation for the upcoming battle between the two sides. Ben was very sympathetic here, in both scenes where he couldn't murder because of the children. although he probably became jaded along the way because of the position of power, at a younger age he really seemed like an idealist, and that he really did have the islands best interest at heart throughout all of his decisions.

Yes, we saw that twice Widmore advocated the killing of children, first Ben then Alex. Ben spared Rousseau, warned her of future danger (while giving us a clue about the whispers preceding danger), and would have likely spared Penny. So Ben is partial to young mothers and children, which makes the fertility thing make more sense. Probably to do with his own mom and his momless childhood.

I thought the faces in the black smoke were kind of cheesy, the answers were a little ham-handed in this episode, in my opinion, dumbed down. Maybe my expectations were just too high. Maybe I got accustomed to being allowed to think and piece things together when the show was moving at a more casual pace before an end date was established, but I don't know, I was pretty disappointed by this episode. And I love the character of Ben SO much.

I agree with much of what has already been stated. Ben felt regret for what he had done in the past, and was sorry for the death of Alex. Because of this he was allowed to live by the Smoke Monster. Eko was killed because he did not feel any regret for all of the terrible things he had done, and the Smoke Monster punished him for this.

Yes, we saw that twice Widmore advocated the killing of children, first Ben then Alex. Ben spared Rousseau, warned her of future danger (while giving us a clue about the whispers preceding danger), and would have likely spared Penny. So Ben is partial to young mothers and children, which makes the fertility thing make more sense. Probably to do with his own mom and his momless childhood.

I thought the faces in the black smoke were kind of cheesy, the answers were a little ham-handed in this episode, in my opinion, dumbed down. Maybe my expectations were just too high. Maybe I got accustomed to being allowed to think and piece things together when the show was moving at a more casual pace before an end date was established, but I don't know, I was pretty disappointed by this episode. And I love the character of Ben SO much.

I liked the episode overall and thought it was very well-acted but do agree that the smoky images were cheesy and the answers ham-handed.

Could it be that making Ben listen to Locke is worse punishment than death for Ben?? This is kinda what I am thinking.:undecide:

im in the 'the island knows he can help locke boat' so..

So why did Smokey kill the pilot of 815? Was there anyone else?

So why did Smokey kill the pilot of 815? Was there anyone else?Judgment is not Cerberus' only function. It is also for the purposes of protection and course correction. The hieroglyphics on the outside of Ben's door read "to summon protection" and that function is clearly demonstrated in 4x09. The course correction part is when it kills the pilot because Frank was supposed to be on the plane that day.

Judgment is not Cerberus' only function. It is also for the purposes of protection and course correction. The hieroglyphics on the outside of Ben's door read "to summon protection" and that function is clearly demonstrated in 4x09. The course correction part is when it kills the pilot because Frank was supposed to be on the plane that day.

Anything smokey is, is totally theoretical. We know some of the things it does but apart from that we know sweet bugger all. We cant assume just because Alex showed up shes smokey either. From what I saw smokey left and Alex showed up. Much like Yemi did with Eko albiet in reverse. It could be the island itself as the manifestations and smokey is merely the tool it uses to act as judge and executioner.

The hieroglyphics simply represent to me the translation of the island and smokey into something that civilisation in that period of time could understand. So they related smokey to their God of the underworld, and the island prob to the god of the sun. If the islands been around for millions of years I dont think itd mind the loose interpretations from a primitive race.

I agree with the idea that Ben was saved because he was remorseful unlike Eko. I also think that Ben is now in Michael's position: hestill has something to do to redeem himself. Michael had to go on the boat, Locke will end up needing Ben for a crucial event. then I'm afraid "You can go now, Ben."

I agree with the idea that Ben was saved because he was remorseful unlike Eko. I also think that Ben is now in Michael's position: hestill has something to do to redeem himself. Michael had to go on the boat, Locke will end up needing Ben for a crucial event. then I'm afraid "You can go now, Ben."

Eko was also afraid of it the second time around, Locke showed fear when it went to drag him down the pit. Keamys men were certainly afraid when they were getting the smokey slam treatment, Im pretty sure the pilot was terrified when it gave him a free ride to the top of that tree.

We dont know if Locke saw smokey the first time he mentioned to Eko that all he saw was a bright light. Eko said to Charlie he was not afraid of it when he saw it the first time, and although Bens initial reaction was to step back, he stood his ground as smokey played out his trial.

Eko was right, he did what he had to do to survive. If smokey is some form of omnipotent judge then its system is flawed. Eko showed fear the second time smokey approached him and i would rather believe that had more to do with his death than smokey executing him for lack of remorse over events to do with his brother.

This writers better have a damn good reason for the island being judge and executioner because I really liked Eko, and if his life as sad as it was wasnt a good enough reason Im going to find it hard to believe the island is any better.

I'm kind of wondering if the island, in judgment of Ben, was trying to say something like "I took you as my 'child' and protected you. You took Alex as your child, then you denied her and allowed her to be killed; Now John is my 'child'. You know how powerful I am, so in repentance, accept and protect 'your brother' "

Maybe it's another family type thing?

It should be added that Smokey apparently only judged Ben on island events. Those events surrounding Alex were mostly positive. He did allow Alex to be killed, but I think he truly didn't think that was going to happen. And he has regretted it ever since.

Primarily though, island events appeared to be the center of judgement. So he gets off with a stern warning.

It'll be interesting to see if he heeds said warning.

Smokey chased down Juliet and Kate as well. Didn't Juliet tell Kate not to look at it? Smokey also did a number on the mercenaries as well.