Till the last epi, we were debating (rather hotly, if I recall) that Sayid and Jack played a huge, pivotal role in Ben's character development etc. That they were responsible to an extent in making Ben the man he is today.

However, after last night, we saw that little Ben clearly didn't remember being shot. It supported Richard's claim in WHH that he wouldnt, but we saw clear evidence when he was speaking to younger Charles.

So, what does that imply? If Ben never remembered that Sayid shot him, then Sayid isn't responsible for how he turned out, because Ben won't hold a grudge, won't feel bitter and negative and mad about being shot by someone he was helping. That entire course seems to have been settled, in fact, down to 'did big Ben know who Sayid was when he met him in OOT?' I'm guessing little Ben won't run into Sayid in the 70s again, and hence Big Ben won't know him later.

The other line of thinking is: by merely healing Ben, they 'turned' him. It wasn't being shot per se, but by needing to be healed that he became 'bad'. This would have potential to lay some blame at Jack's feet, since he could have theoretically prevented Ben from being taken to Richard by operating on him.
However, I find it hard to believe, since little Ben wasn't exactly a saint prior to the healing.
Besides, Rose and Locke have been healed by the Island (albeit not taken into the Temple) too, and they're not all evil and twisted (especially Rose).

I'm a touch confused, and would love some perspective.
Was it taking boy Ben into the Temple that caused a 'loss of innocence'?
Was it the healing itself?
Or was Ben simply not such a stellar character, ever?

My money's on the last option.

Oh, and apologies if this thread topic is already up; I couldn't find it. :)

What I can't understand is why would the Others want to make Ben evil? Who wants an evil leader?

I think you're missing the "his innocence will be gone" line.
Sayid didn't shape him. It was BECAUSE of Sayid that he was taken to the temple where his innocence was taken, (which sounds really creepy).
I think Widmore taught him to be more evil than Jack and Co. considering Widmore wanted him to kill a baby and an innocent woman.
Who KNOWS what else Widmore had him do?

What I can't understand is why would the Others want to make Ben evil? Who wants an evil leader?

Ben isn't really EVIL, per say.
He just believes in doing everything he can to protect the island and he got lost (pardon the pun) along the way.

What's strange is that, even young man Ben wasn't "evil." He didn't kill Rouseau or Alex....he truly loved Alex and raised her as his own. Granted, he did kidnap her and that doesn't exactly prove a saintly character, but he wasn't "evil." The Ben we now know wouldn't hesitate to kill someone, so something must have happened still after he became the leader.

Yeah, I don't think Ben's really evil. His methods sometimes leave alot to be desired from *our* moral viewpoint, but he does appear to be acting in the Island's best interest. I think the main problem is it's dawning on him that he's not really "the man." Does he have the humility to accept a secondary role? Not sure.

I think there is a confusion between "losing innocence" and "becoming evil". I believe that "losing innocence" means acquiring knowledge (like when Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil"). What knowledge did Ben acquire? Could be knowledge of how the Island works, or knowledge of future events. But whatever it is, it would have to be knowlege of which the rest of us are ignorant, thus losing his innocence.

Remember, Charles wanted to kill Alex and Danielle. Ben didn't. That was after his resurrection/healing in the Temple.

I don't think Ben forgot what happened with Sayid. He certainly didn't forget what happened with his dad. Why would he forget one but not the other?

I also don't think Ben has had the island's best interest at heart. I think he's always had his own, with a little bit of leveraging the island to his own gains. In a way, I think his own interests have usually coincided with the island's, or vice-versa. I think the island has been using him for its own purpose, and that Ben has been enjoying that, and now that his usefulness is ending, he's trying to work the system and maintain control. But after Dead Is Dead, we'll have to wait and see if he has a change of heart.

I also don't think Ben has had the island's best interest at heart. I think he's always had his own, with a little bit of leveraging the island to his own gains.

You are probably right. But here is one thing in Ben's favor. He turned the wheel. I don't think this was in his own best interest at all. And he could of easily convinced Locke to turn it. After all Locke was told to move the Island. Ben volunteered and willingly handed leadership over to Locke.

What's strange is that, even young man Ben wasn't "evil." He didn't kill Rouseau or Alex....he truly loved Alex and raised her as his own. Granted, he did kidnap her and that doesn't exactly prove a saintly character, but he wasn't "evil."


I thought Ben kidnapping Alex was an act of mercy. He saved her from an insane woman and even told Danielle how to stay alive (stay away from the whispers).

Thanks for bringing this up, evanesco. I've been thinking that Ben's character has been formed by what happened to him after trusting and freeing Sayid. You're right, that can't be true.

So I guess ruthless, cunning Ben will emerge from other experiences yet to come. Something we've not seen yet.

I don't like to think Ben just has been born "not such a stellar character". I really don't see him as an evil kid, more as an unhappy and scared one. He wasn't exactly a saint, true, but which kid is? Children are still learning what's supposed to be "right" or "wrong". How Ben did turn out, doesn't exactly advertise the Other's parenting skills, imo. That fits in of what we've seen with teenage Charles' behaviour. And look at Ethan, eager to kill at age 11. Good heavens, the Others should never be allowed to raise children!

What I can't understand is why would the Others want to make Ben evil? Who wants an evil leader?

I don't think the others see themselves as evil, in fact they have often referred to themselves as the "good guys". I think Ben losing his innocence involves becoming aware of the Island and it's secrets, or perhaps becoming indebted to the Island by receiving it's healing properties.

I thought Ben kidnapping Alex was an act of mercy. He saved her from an insane woman and even told Danielle how to stay alive (stay away from the whispers).


I agree that it was "sorta" an act of mercy. The "right" thing to do would be to stand up to his people about kidnapping and murder. However that would have probably led to him being ousted and them just sending someone else to kill Danielle and Alex. So I do think Ben saved both their lives. Which makes me think Ben is not evil. I do think he believes that anything the island wants done cannot be immoral. Its the ol Nixon line "if the president does it, its not illegal" or something like that.

Off topic a bit, I dont know why everyone still thinks Danielle is insane. 1st season I get it, she's a recluse living in the jungle, claiming to hear whispers and talking about a sickness that caused her to kill all her people. We now know that the whispers are real and the sickness is real (or least that her people came back from the temple different and trying to kill her). So other than her strange behavior in Season 1, what do we really have that points to her being crazy?

You are absolutely right Bears. We do first think of her as crazy because of stuff that she says. Everything turns out to be true. I agree that she isn't crazy at the end. She's just broken down and despondent. There is nothing to live for, but she's too tough to die. Ironically she bites it just after she finds out there is something to live for.

But the young Danielle sure is a little spun. Everyone she sees she accuses them of infecting her team. I fully expect, if she ever comes across Vincent, for her to say "YOU! You infected them!"

You are absolutely right Bears. We do first think of her as crazy because of stuff that she says. Everything turns out to be true. I agree that she isn't crazy at the end. She's just broken down and despondent. There is nothing to live for, but she's too tough to die. Ironically she bites it just after she finds out there is something to live for.

But the young Danielle sure is a little spun. Everyone she sees she accuses them of infecting her team. I fully expect, if she ever comes across Vincent, for her to say "YOU! You infected them!"

Yeah YD is a little spun but if I arrived on LOST island saw a smoke monster rip my friends arm off, then had my friends go all crazy and try to kill me (forcing me to kill them), I think I would be spun out too. Not to mention seeing Jin disappear before her eyes.

Yeah YD is a little spun but if I arrived on LOST island saw a smoke monster rip my friends arm off, then had my friends go all crazy and try to kill me (forcing me to kill them), I think I would be spun out too. Not to mention seeing Jin disappear before her eyes.

Twice.

I think that after Ben leaves Templeland and goes back to Dharmaville he is never truly excepted back as Dharma.
I think that he is shunned by the adults and the Dharma children because they don't know if they can really trust him anymore.
He spends the next fifteen years undercover as an Other yet he has to live with people that don't like him. He learns his manipulative ways because he has to hide his true feelings toward the Dharma people and try and convince them that he is one of them while he actually despises them.

I think NBC makes a great point. I've been wondering how the DI will react, knowing Ben's been taken (and likely knowing where and why).

As it is, daddy Workman doesn't seem to be the most well liked guy; add that to Ben springing Sayid from his cell (not sure yet whether other people besides Sawyer and Kate know that part) and being healed by Richard and co, and I'd think Ben would be the target of suspicion and dislike when he returned.

Lest we forget, Ben too was a janitor like his da. And we all know Ben isn't really suitable for such a job (unless it entails cleaning up his own mess!) Seems he might've been shunned to a degree.

Thanks for bringing this up, evanesco. I've been thinking that Ben's character has been formed by what happened to him after trusting and freeing Sayid. You're right, that can't be true.

So I guess ruthless, cunning Ben will emerge from other experiences yet to come. Something we've not seen yet.

I don't like to think Ben just has been born "not such a stellar character". I really don't see him as an evil kid, more as an unhappy and scared one. He wasn't exactly a saint, true, but which kid is? Children are still learning what's supposed to be "right" or "wrong". How Ben did turn out, doesn't exactly advertise the Other's parenting skills, imo. That fits in of what we've seen with teenage Charles' behaviour. And look at Ethan, eager to kill at age 11. Good heavens, the Others should never be allowed to raise children!

Ben could be the anomally amongst the group and the Others have been punished by their children being taken away. It would explain why they steal kids. But who is doing the punishing, the island, Or a higher power? Losing a child is always used in storytelling, evil people doing evil things, payback so to speak, karma.

I like your point about the Others not raising kids or not having a great view of kids, Calliope. Certainly, Charles' complete lack of caring was chilling, and he was the Leader at that point. I had a feeling Richard disagreed with him though, and that this may have strengthened his affinity for Ben as leader at that time.

I often wondered how much of a leader Ben was supposed to be. They did say a few episodes back that if the island wants someone dead, they will die. Maybe it was wrong that Ben was saved as a child? It seems interesting when in comparison with Charles wanting Danielle and Alex dead, and saying it was the island wanting it. Hmm, does that make sense? I believe as well that in a way taking Alex was a mercy on Danielle. Sure, he was essentially stealing a child, but he could have easily killed them both, something i don't think Charles would have hesitated to do. For this reason I don't think Ben in evil, although his morals are always inquestion. Does he have any? I think there is more to this than just Bne losing his innocence once he was healed at the temple.

I really want that to be true, GidgetGirl. I've begun to feel it's a combination of many things: Ben's own innate nature (complete with flaws and virtues), neglect and trauma as a child, coupled with feelings of being unwanted and lonely, his getting shot, his induction into the Others and then getting immersed in their code and rules and way of life.

Certainly, the Others had a huge influence. However, at times he seems to surpass every other character in terms of cleverness, deciet and ingenuity: I'd say these are his own characteristics. Again, we still don't know his real intentions, his true heart. We've been given glimpses only, so far. We at least know he isn't a complete monster, due to his attitude towards kids and Alex.

If it's simply: oh, the Temple did it! I'd find it a cop-out. Gah! :)

I think too many people are saying that Alex died because the island wanted her dead The island wanted Charlie dead and he continually dealt with ordeal after ordeal until he was dead within the month. Alex had 16 years of waiting until course correction finally nabbed her? I dont think so. The island didnt want her dead. She died because Keamy shot her. It was a tactic of war, it was malicious, it was tragic but it wasnt the island.

I too don't think the island wanted her dead. I think Widmore wanted Ben to think that, and if you look at their convo in TSOTTC, we can even see this:

Ben accuses Widmore of killing Alex. Widmore says Ben himself is to blame. In the context of DID, you could say Widmore meant 'you killed her now by letting her survive then.'

But I don't think Ben believes that one bit. He blames himself for not walking out to Keamy and hence getting her shot. I don't believe he feels letting her live and becoming her 'dad' was a bad thing, ever.

What's strange is that, even young man Ben wasn't "evil." He didn't kill Rouseau or Alex....he truly loved Alex and raised her as his own. Granted, he did kidnap her and that doesn't exactly prove a saintly character, but he wasn't "evil." The Ben we now know wouldn't hesitate to kill someone, so something must have happened still after he became the leader.
I don't agree on that.
I think considering his past, Ben can't kill a mother....he suffers enough the death of his mother and he's unable to kill one. THat's why he didn't kill Rousseau...and that's why he was unable to kill Penelope when he saw little charlie. At least that's my way of seing all this.

For the easiness he has to kill people....remember Juliet killing pickhet in cold blood...i don't know but the others seems to kill easily....i hope we'll understand why someday!??

Something tells me that Ben knew how Alex should or would die, and the reason why Keamy's murder of her shocked him is because he thought he knew that's not how it was supposed to happen.

Widmore told Ben that night Ben came a-callin' that Ben murdered her. Widmore could not have been referring to Keamy calling Ben's bluff, because there's no way Widmore could have known that. Ben says Widmore broke the rules when Keamy killed her. There's something here I can't quite put my finger on, but I believe both men knew she would die, and both men knew a version of her death where Ben did it or was, at least, undeniably responsible. Herein lies the rules, I believe. Something changed that wasn't supposed to change.