In "What Happened, Happened" Miles and Hurley have a time debate. The debate ends with Hurley asking "If Sayid shot Ben here in the past, why wouldn't he remember Sayid in the future" It stumps Miles.

Then, at the end, Richard says that if he takes the shot Ben and heals him, Ben will be different and won't remember anything, seemingly answering the paradox for good.

Great!

But in this episode, Young Ben seems to remember everything. He is still afraid of his father, still seems to know and remember his life in Dharma. So the paradox remains, doesn't it?

I have to believe that just because people verbalize these "rules" that they can be wrong or misinformed. Can someone tell me how I am incorrect here?

D

well, then we fall back on the 'ben can control his reactions, so may remember but not show it' argument.

He didn't remember getting shot apparently, as he asked Widmore what had happened. I'm wondering now if all of our future friends will be out of the picture by the time he returns to D-ville.

What I found to be of significance was when Kate asks Richard if he can save Ben's life. The scene plays out as:

Richard: "If I take him, he's not ever gonna be the same again."
Kate: "What do you mean by that?"
Richard: "What I mean is that, he'll forget THIS ever happened, and that, his innocence will be gone."
(Sawyer gets bad taste in mouth)
Richard: "He will always be one of us"

It seems as though Richard chooses his words carefully and leaves it vague. He'll forget this ever happened, I think implies that Ben will not be aware of the specific details surrounding the events that pertain to his indoctrination with the others. He will always be one of us, helps to explain why Ben can justify his words and actions as he walks among the others.

IMO, Ben does remember everything and even if he doesn't he would have the opportunity to learn about that which he has forgotten from his new family. Ben is a manipulator and a liar, knowledge is how he obtains power. Even though Miles is stumped with Hurley's question, there is not much else showing that Ben does not recall the day he almost died. Besides, there is a good possibility that Jacob (or someone else) could of told Ben what happened on that fateful day.

Didn't Ben tell Locke and Sun right before going down Smokey's rabbit hole that he had been brought there as a child to heal?

Didn't Ben tell Locke and Sun right before going down Smokey's rabbit hole that he had been brought there as a child to heal?

Ben: "I think I know where were going now John."
John: "Oh, do ya?"
Ben: "It's the same place they brought me as a child. It's where the Island's healed me."

When Sun asks what the wall is, Ben replies that it surrounds OUR temple (which lies approx. 1/2 mile in from the wall). Either Ben is once again manipulating the truth or he truly believes that the only way to confront smokey is via the temple. I highly doubt Ben knew of the exact location where the judgement would take place, but was definitely familiar with the area as he admitted to being there before.

The writers on this show have been so impressive (in relation to the other "shows" on television) that I just can't bring myself to believe they'd rely on such an ad hoc way of explaining away events in the first few seasons. Based on that and on Ben's character development as a master manipulator, I think he did, in fact, remember some, if not all, of the losties.

For the veiwers of the show that can grasp how Ben could have known Sayid all along, Richard's answer can be dismissed.
For viewers who were as stumped as Miles, they get Richard's answer.

For the veiwers of the show that can grasp how Ben could have known Sayid all along, Richard's answer can be dismissed.
For viewers who were as stumped as Miles, they get Richard's answer.

Reminds me of those chose your own adventure books. :cool:

I guess the question is how much or little does he remember of the Losties? He may not remember Jack, Hurley or even Kate (if he doesn't remember anything around the shooting) because he may have had limited contact with them prior to the shooting. You would think though that he would remember Lafleur and Juliet, he had been around them several years before the shooting and you would think everybody would know who the head of security was. I just watched "The Other Woman" from season four and, as many people have argued, his crush on Juliet may have started as a child. Either he thought 2004 Juliet was just a look-alike with the same name as '77 Juliet, or he was aware (in 2004) that Juliet was going to travel back to 1977, or he somehow doesn't remember and or never met the head of security's wife who usually fixed the VW's but occasionally performed a C-section. Then there's Sayid, he may not remember getting shot, but does he remember bringing him sandwiches or lending him his favorite book?

It also struck me that in the same scene, when Sun shows Ben the Dharma picture with the Losties in it, and he claims he never knew they were part of Dharma, he also claims that dead is dead and he didn't know John was going to come back to life. This contradicts what he told Locke earlier in the episode, so even on his way to be judged he has no problem lying through his teeth. So can we accept the claim that he doesn't remember the Losties being part of Dharma?

That's a good point. LaFleur was even using a name Ben would not recognize from the flight manifest. Juliet, however, was using her real name, and Juliet is the one Ben went out of his way to pretty much abduct. I would like to go back and look at a scene where Ben sees James Ford for the first time. Was there recognition there?

One thing about Sawyer/James that has always troubled me: How did the others know that he had killed a man in cold blood? How could they know that? Did they orchestrate it? Did Sawyer tell someone in '77 who could use it against him later? Was he being followed? The cops didn't even know that Sawyer committed that crime.

I guess the question is how much or little does he remember of the Losties? He may not remember Jack, Hurley or even Kate (if he doesn't remember anything around the shooting) because he may have had limited contact with them prior to the shooting. You would think though that he would remember Lafleur and Juliet, he had been around them several years before the shooting and you would think everybody would know who the head of security was. I just watched "The Other Woman" from season four and, as many people have argued, his crush on Juliet may have started as a child. Either he thought 2004 Juliet was just a look-alike with the same name as '77 Juliet, or he was aware (in 2004) that Juliet was going to travel back to 1977, or he somehow doesn't remember and or never met the head of security's wife who usually fixed the VW's but occasionally performed a C-section. Then there's Sayid, he may not remember getting shot, but does he remember bringing him sandwiches or lending him his favorite book?

It also struck me that in the same scene, when Sun shows Ben the Dharma picture with the Losties in it, and he claims he never knew they were part of Dharma, he also claims that dead is dead and he didn't know John was going to come back to life. This contradicts what he told Locke earlier in the episode, so even on his way to be judged he has no problem lying through his teeth. So can we accept the claim that he doesn't remember the Losties being part of Dharma?



MAN: Hello Benjamin.
YOUNG BEN: What happened?
MAN: You were injured.
YOUNG BEN: How?
MAN: You don't remember.
YOUNG BEN: Where am I?
MAN: You're among friends. We're going to take care of you.
YOUNG BEN: My dad. Is he here?
MAN: You'll be back to him soon enough.
YOUNG BEN: No. No, I don't want to go…
[Ben tries to sit up. A pain in his chest and coughs stops him. He slowly lies back.]
MAN: Shhh. Okay, Easy, easy
YOUNG BEN: [in pain] I don't wanna go back. I want to stay. I want to be one of you.
MAN: [smiles] Just because you are living with them doesn't mean you can't be one of us. You should be dead Benjamin. But this island, [pause] it saved your life.

We know he doesn't remember how he got injured, we also know he remembers his father and some of his life on the Island. We just don't know how much of that life on the Island he has forgotten.

Widmore is the one who told him that the Island saved his life and it was after being healed that Ben heard that so he wouldn't have forgotten that memory. He would most likely recognize the Temple walls because he had to have gone through them at least once more to go back to Dharma but I would imagine that he has gone through them many times. It is not at all out of the realm of possibilities that Richard or someone else told Ben that he was brought to the Temple by Richard to be healed.

I do believe that Ben was extremely surprised to see Locke alive but Ben is such an extremely adept liar and as Ben has said "I always have a plan", it was just so easy for him to say:

BEN: [sits up] I knew it. I knew that this would happen.
LOCKE: Then why are you so surprised to see me?
BEN: Because it is one thing to believe it John. It's another thing to see it.

He was already planning how he could kill Locke and this time make sure that "Dead is Dead".


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ETA
Sorry if some of this was posted but while I was writing this my key board and mouse froze and I had to reset it.

But in this episode, Young Ben seems to remember everything. He is still afraid of his father, still seems to know and remember his life in Dharma. So the paradox remains, doesn't it?


I think Ben didn't remember Sayid shoot him but he remembers everything else....it's like people having accidents....they often don't remember the accident probably because it's too painfull but they didn't lose memory of what happened before in their life, who they are etc... i suppose it's the same for Ben.

I agree that Ben seemed to be lying when he told John that he expected him to come back from the dead, it's another example of Ben being out of the loop with the island's plans now. I'm wondering if he is going to follow John now that he's been told to, or is he going to try to regain control by getting rid of Locke again?

We haven't been shown just how much / how little young Ben remembers yet. My guess is, he remembers just enough for his other flashbacks to make sense from season 3, and not enough for it to screw up his interactions with the 815ers in season 2. That's just a guess, and what a coincidence that would be. Just those pieces of information get lost in the process. Handy.