I'm confused for the first time in Lost history. If whatever happened happened and Desmond tried time and time again to save Charlie, but he kept dying, then how can they now change what happened if the universe course corrects itself? If people are the variable's then why couldn't Desmond save Charlie? Or does that just mean the paths can be changed? You can go down a different street so to speak, but you'll still arrive at the same destination? Like if 815 doesn't crash does that mean Charlie will still die of a car accident or something else at the same time he died before because it's his time to go?:confused::confused::confused:

I'm confused for the first time in Lost history. If whatever happened happened and Desmond tried time and time again to save Charlie, but he kept dying, then how can they now change what happened if the universe course corrects itself? If people are the variable's then why couldn't Desmond save Charlie? Or does that just mean the paths can be changed? You can go down a different street so to speak, but you'll still arrive at the same destination? Like if 815 doesn't crash does that mean Charlie will still die of a car accident or something else at the same time he died before because it's his time to go?:confused::confused::confused:

Well, Daniel thinks they are all variables because they aren't supposed to be in the 70's. This is according to his new theory. There was nothing variable about Charlie as far as his place in time goes. The only variable there would be Desmond who kept trying to change what was "supposed" to happen.

Well, Daniel thinks they are all variables because they aren't supposed to be in the 70's. This is according to his new theory. There was nothing variable about Charlie as far as his place in time goes. The only variable there would be Desmond who kept trying to change what was "supposed" to happen.
So basically charlie would die no matter what at that given point in time wheather they crashed or not.
Did Ben change events by moving the island because Hawkings knew Daniel was going to die. She just didn't know about Desmond getting shot, and I don't get why she didn't seem to know that either.

I think at the end of the episode, we are supposed to draw the conclusion that Dan was right the first time -- you can't change anything

Think about an equation. You can have x+y=10. x and y are the variables. x could be 5 and y could be 5 or x could be 8 and y could be 2. The end result is the same but the values are different. I think this is what Daniel meant. However, the ending suggests he was wrong and his initial theory of whatever happened, happened, was indeed correct. At the same time, maybe both philosophies will be accurate to a certain degree. It's back to that whole free-will versus destiny debate :)

WHH- was further proof this episode. You can NOT change the past. It was proved again this episode because Daniel was not able to change the past.

Charlie was different. Charlie's death happened in his present and the island's present. That had nothing to do with WHH. What that had to do with waas fate. It was Charlie's fate to die. Death was coming for him. Desmond just put off the inevitable.

So if Hawking and Widmore don't know what's going to happen anymore, that means variables can come into place at this point correct?
they seem to only know everything up to this point, but from now on it's a free for all as to what's going to happen?
Thanks for explaining guys, I think I'm kinda following at this point.

So if Hawking and Widmore don't know what's going to happen anymore, that means variables can come into place at this point correct?
they seem to only know everything up to this point, but from now on it's a free for all as to what's going to happen?
Thanks for explaining guys, I think I'm kinda following at this point.


From this point on, nothing needs to be manipulated in the past for everything to happen. From this point on, they have no clue of the future. They did before because they knew certain things had to happen for us to get to this point. Desmond had to get to the island, not push the button, bring the plane down, Faraday had to come on the frieghter, the 815's had to go back in time to the 70's, the O6 had to go back in time to the 70's also, Faraday had to come back to the island in the 70's and finally ellie had to kill her own son so her past would stay intact. From this point on, her past is preserved and from this point on, everything else will happen in the present/future.

So if Hawking and Widmore don't know what's going to happen anymore, that means variables can come into place at this point correct?
they seem to only know everything up to this point, but from now on it's a free for all as to what's going to happen?
Thanks for explaining guys, I think I'm kinda following at this point.

That's a good question. I don't think we yet know how or why Hawking and Widmore knew what was going to happen. And why suddenly in 2008 they don't know what is going to happen next. I suspect we will learn a lot more of those two over the next 20 episodes.
100%
From this point on, nothing needs to be manipulated in the past for everything to happen. From this point on, they have no clue of the future. They did before because they knew certain things had to happen for us to get to this point. Desmond had to get to the island, not push the button, bring the plane down, Faraday had to come on the frieghter, the 815's had to go back in time to the 70's, the O6 had to go back in time to the 70's also, Faraday had to come back to the island in the 70's and finally ellie had to kill her own son so her past would stay intact. From this point on, her past is preserved and from this point on, everything else will happen in the present/future.

Great explanation, thanks!

Like if 815 doesn't crash does that mean Charlie will still die of a car accident or something else at the same time he died before because it's his time to go?

So basically charlie would die no matter what at that given point in time wheather they crashed or not.

This episode and your posts get me thinking that yes, he very well may have to die anyway. Now if 815 doesn't crash on the Island with everyone miraculously safe, does that mean they land safely or does it mean they crash anyway? Maybe somewhere else where planes crash more realistically and fatally? Maybe somewhere like the Sunda Trench?

So if Hawking and Widmore don't know what's going to happen anymore, that means variables can come into place at this point correct?
they seem to only know everything up to this point, but from now on it's a free for all as to what's going to happen?.

It is strange that these two are at a point where they are no longer "in the Know" of the future, which differently stated would be .....they no longer know if the Lostie Time Travelers were able to make a change or not?

I also now want to know why they so desperately wanted all those events to fall into place. What was so important they needed to manipulate the past, so to speak?

I also now want to know why they so desperately wanted all those events to fall into place. What was so important they needed to manipulate the past, so to speak?
The still impending war?

I also now want to know why they so desperately wanted all those events to fall into place. What was so important they needed to manipulate the past, so to speak?


If they did not manipulate everything to happen how it did, thier pasts would not exists. They would become anomolies and their very existance would be wiped from existance. The world would implode from the paradox. Ellie said to Desmond that if he never made it to the island, everyone on earth would die and she was right. It would create a paradox which would cause existance to suddenly stop and not exist anymore. Ellie and Charles can not exist in the here and now if suddenly certain events from their past are changed. Also same goes for anyone who interacted with them and anyone who interacted with thos people. Essentially the entire world population.

I'm confused for the first time in Lost history. If whatever happened happened and Desmond tried time and time again to save Charlie, but he kept dying, then how can they now change what happened if the universe course corrects itself? If people are the variable's then why couldn't Desmond save Charlie? Or does that just mean the paths can be changed? You can go down a different street so to speak, but you'll still arrive at the same destination? Like if 815 doesn't crash does that mean Charlie will still die of a car accident or something else at the same time he died before because it's his time to go?:confused::confused::confused:

Charlie died because he chose to. He made a decision 'not to save' himself from what I remember. I will have to watch the episode again, but it seemed to me that he was willingly 'letting go'.

Charlie died because he chose to. He made a decision 'not to save' himself from what I remember. I will have to watch the episode again, but it seemed to me that he was willingly 'letting go'.


he chose to save desmond and sacrifice himself so desmond could live.

he chose to save desmond and sacrifice himself so desmond could live.

Yea but Charlie still would have died. Desmond saved him from death at least three times.
If they did not manipulate everything to happen how it did, thier pasts would not exists. They would become anomolies and their very existance would be wiped from existance. The world would implode from the paradox. Ellie said to Desmond that if he never made it to the island, everyone on earth would die and she was right. It would create a paradox which would cause existance to suddenly stop and not exist anymore. Ellie and Charles can not exist in the here and now if suddenly certain events from their past are changed. Also same goes for anyone who interacted with them and anyone who interacted with thos people. Essentially the entire world population.
You are way too good at this stuff. So it seems everything was happening the way it should have happened until Desmond didn't hit the button.

Yea but Charlie still would have died. Desmond saved him from death at least three times.

You are way too good at this stuff. So it seems everything was happening the way it should have happened until Desmond didn't hit the button.


1. Your right Charlie would have died eventually, he just chose how he would go out. He chose to die sacrificing himself to save Desmond. He chose to die a hero.

2. Actually Desmond not hitting the button is exaclty how it was supposed to happen and it was going according to plan. That was Ellie's entire point of being in the jewlry store and the entire point of Charles treating Desmond like crap. So he would not marry Penny, race around the world, end up on the island, not push the button, the 815 plane would crash, Charles would find the island again and send Faraday and so on and so on. Basically until they get back to their own time, everything is happening according to plan. Once they get back to their own time, then everything is a free for all. Cause it will no longer be anyone's past, then, really, anything can happen.

I'm confused for the first time in Lost history. :confused::confused::confused:

I think you are the only person to EVER utter those words.

1. Your right Charlie would have died eventually, he just chose how he would go out. He chose to die sacrificing himself to save Desmond. He chose to die a hero.

2. Actually Desmond not hitting the button is exaclty how it was supposed to happen and it was going according to plan. That was Ellie's entire point of being in the jewlry store and the entire point of Charles treating Desmond like crap. So he would not marry Penny, race around the world, end up on the island, not push the button, the 815 plane would crash, Charles would find the island again and send Faraday and so on and so on. Basically until they get back to their own time, everything is happening according to plan. Once they get back to their own time, then everything is a free for all. Cause it will no longer be anyone's past, then, really, anything can happen.






So what if Desmond time travels onto the island like the 06 and pushes the button and 815 doesnt crash...Widmore would be happy!

I'm confused for the first time in Lost history

wow. You must be the only one.I envy you...

So what if Desmond time travels onto the island like the 06 and pushes the button and 815 doesnt crash...Widmore would be happy!


Widmore would not exists and the world would end, thus widmore would not be happy at all. Desmond pushing the button and the plane crashing would negate Widmore's own past and the world would end.

I actually think we are supposed to be asking the question you posed in the topic line, and there aren't any definitive answers. At the time of Charlie's death, the writers played into the inevitability of it so heavily that I think we were supposed to be a bit bothered by what happened, and wonder, "Did Charlie reallly have to die?" Was there another way?"

All evidence presented thus far has pointed to yes, Charlie had to die, you can't escape fate. The universe will always course correct no matter what you choose. And that could seem comforting, knowing there's a grand plan at work and all you have to do is fufill your part. It all depends on how you look at it. I personally found the futility of trying to save Charlie kinda depressing, so Faraday coming along and saying "No so fast. It's not that simple...." kinda gives me hope that they are ready to explore the possibility that everything isn't predetermined and set in stone.

Past vs. Present vs. Future. It was his destiny to die.

So basically charlie would die no matter what at that given point in time wheather they crashed or not.
Did Ben change events by moving the island because Hawkings knew Daniel was going to die. She just didn't know about Desmond getting shot, and I don't get why she didn't seem to know that either.

I believe the variable for Charlie went like this: He's gonna die, the variable is HOW he dies.
The show's time travel rules and such really are getting confusing, can't blame ya.

but........ if Daniel is shot and spends the next 6 or so hours going to the temple to live and stuff, that temporarily gets him out of the way so the Incident can indeed happen. The Universe course correcting by way of hot lead.

If they did not manipulate everything to happen how it did, thier pasts would not exists. They would become anomolies and their very existance would be wiped from existance. The world would implode from the paradox. Ellie said to Desmond that if he never made it to the island, everyone on earth would die and she was right. It would create a paradox which would cause existance to suddenly stop and not exist anymore. Ellie and Charles can not exist in the here and now if suddenly certain events from their past are changed. Also same goes for anyone who interacted with them and anyone who interacted with thos people. Essentially the entire world population.

Do they really KNOW this would happen though? The way it's been presented is that things are meant to play out a certain way no matter what... if Ellie had chosen to sit idly by and not actively motivate Daniel to make the choices he had made his entire life, would the universe have course corrected and gotten him there anyway?

Of course, perhaps it is impossible for this scenario to happen as well, because it is in Ellie's nature to do what she did no matter what, and that is why her destiny is fulfilled.

We can go in circles for hours on this...

Freakin time travel :biggrin:

So if Hawking and Widmore don't know what's going to happen anymore, that means variables can come into place at this point correct?
they seem to only know everything up to this point, but from now on it's a free for all as to what's going to happen?
Thanks for explaining guys, I think I'm kinda following at this point.

They can only know what was going to happen by being told by someone who experienced it. Likely they learn of the upcoming incident and its consequences via Jack and Kate. The fact that they don’t know what happens after that indicates that they become separated from Jack et al shortly after expressing this information and don’t meet up again. I think Hawking didn’t know what happened to Desmond because he either doesn’t go back to the Island in 1977 or, if he does, he just doesn’t run into Hawking for her to have any knowledge of his presence and its results.

From this point on, nothing needs to be manipulated in the past for everything to happen. From this point on, they have no clue of the future. They did before because they knew certain things had to happen for us to get to this point. Desmond had to get to the island, not push the button, bring the plane down, Faraday had to come on the frieghter, the 815's had to go back in time to the 70's, the O6 had to go back in time to the 70's also, Faraday had to come back to the island in the 70's and finally ellie had to kill her own son so her past would stay intact. From this point on, her past is preserved and from this point on, everything else will happen in the present/future.

Why is her past preserved? Like nothing happened anymore in her past after killing her own son...sure a lot of other things with other people has happened past that point in her past.

On every moment in her past everything happens in the present/futurefor her.

Why is her past preserved? Like nothing happened anymore in her past after killing her own son...sure a lot of other things with other people has happened past that point in her past.

On every moment in her past everything happens in the present/futurefor her.

Her past is preserved because she manipulated the time-travellers (O6 and her son) from 21st century into her past to carry out the events that always happened. I would assume that other moments in her life aren't interfered with by time-travellers so they occur how her nature and perceived free-will would have them - which are as they would always be. She doesn't know any more of the future because because she hasn't come into contact with any time-travellers who come from further forward than the current ones, so she has nowhere to get new knowledge from.

Maybe I'm being forgetful - but how did she know Desmond was destined to push the button? Maybe Kate and Jack tell her in '77. But then how did she know the man who dies, in that scene with Desmond, dies? - if we're going with the theory that they have knowledge of the future because of time-travellers from the future telling them so...