We all picked this one up, yes?

We all picked this one up, yes?

Um... We did? :confused:

-G

ew no. doubt incest will be a LOST storyline

Coming off the quote with Richard saying something about love being complicated, I'm guessing he was talking about them being in a relationship.

uh
what?

Coming off the quote with Richard saying something about love being complicated, I'm guessing he was talking about them being in a relationship.

I have a feeling that they are siblings- it would explain why Hawking reacted so badly with a slap....and it's complicated...and the music they played afterwards....sounded like they were hinting at something much greater.

I think saying "We all picked up on this" was a bit of a stretch.

Whiskey.Tango.Foxtrot.

Richard says something about love being a complicated thing sometimes, and your mind immediately turns to incest?:ermm:

I think saying "We all picked up on this" was a bit of a stretch.

Alright...well, if that isnt the case....i reckon they over-dramatized that scene....listen to the music, it is very intense....at a moment where we already know they are lovers- it is either hinting at something crazy [like they are siblings], or is an over-use of the music IMHO....using the music for the scene like John Saying "Its Me", is fine...but if they are just using it to confirm what we already know- lame.

We all picked this one up, yes?


What in the $!&# are you talking about????

You got that from him saying something about 'love being complicated'??
100%
Whiskey.Tango.Foxtrot.

:ermm:


lol.....

As I said in the post above- the use of the music made me believe something crazy.....trust me guys there is something going on with these two....its complicated, then that music....unless it was a nod to the non- die hard fans......just seemed to me like they were suggesting something else going on here.

no incest. just a complicated sexual relationship. remember, he was with her and then philandering off the island, getting penny's mum preggers. i think that's why he's banned from the island.

LOL what!?

Does the OP realize that Widmore and Eloise have had coitus?

I can see the Dan childhood flashback now:

Dan, to Widmore: "Dad, you've always been my favorite uncle!"

I admit before "The Variable" when Charles said Daniel was his son too, I thought they would turn out to be siblings. But they aren't siblings...."Love is complicated" means they have a complicated,messy relationship....look at Jack/Kate and Sawyer/Juliet.

Charles and Eloise aren't siblings. Wasn't Widmore referred to as Daniel's father?

lol...alright guys, you have totally pwned me...i agree it is probably not incest

New statement: The use of music was melodramatic considering we already knew they were lovers

IMHO, of course. This is the way i took the scene in the first time.

Everyone can go tell me to see Dr Freud if that was the first thing i thought of...but it seemed like he was going to say they are lovers...then he thought 'they are also siblings'....which is why he said 'its complicated'..then the music came on and i was like...whoa

Flame on. ;)

lol...alright guys, you have totally pwned me...i agree it is probably not incest

New statement: The use of music was melodramatic considering we already knew they were lovers

IMHO, of course. This is the way i took the scene in the first time.

;)

Haha, nice.

I think the music was for her pregnancy

and for the possible parallels to jack and kate

ew no. doubt incest will be a LOST storyline
Shannon and Boone may not have been blood, but they were raised as brother and sister.

lol...alright guys, you have totally pwned me...i agree it is probably not incest

New statement: The use of music was melodramatic considering we already knew they were lovers

IMHO, of course.

Flame on. ;)

Wasn't trying to flame ya,Jack! I thought the music was more to put with the looks on Jack and Kate's faces. They were just putting it all together,hearing that was Charles Widmore and they were in a relationship....meaning Dan was their son and the connection to Penny and on and on....it would blow my mind too! LOL!

Everyone needs to cut Jack Bauer a little slack; he hasn't slept or used the bathroom in 24 hours.

In defense of the original idea of this thread, I also got the impression that they are either siblings or cousins. The way Richard started to explain their relationship with each other and than said "it's complicated," the music, the whole thing...it really made me think that maybe we weren't incorrect in thinking that they are related.

As pointed out, it isn't like there isn't precedent. No one could agree originally whether Boone and Shannon were siblings or lovers. It turns out, they were both...mostly. I also believe that Boone and Shannon's story will prove central as a foreshadowing element to the whole story of lost. Incest...or "almost incest"...is a theme in LOST. It's also a major theme in many classic mythological storylines.

What time does Lost come on in Mississippi?

I read or heard Damon in an interview say the original plan for shannon and boone were for them to be actual brother and sister not step-brother and step-sister, but ABC's S&P would not let them at the time.

Well, there has been precedent....although I certainly didn't get THAT theory out of the exchange in this ep....I have harboured a secret theory that Daniel and Charlotte were siblings, which is why , though he loved her, he never kissed her or even really touched her.....So I concede it's possible.....but unlikely

In support of Agent Bauer who has done sterling work defending this country (apparently while wearing a catheter), I got that immediate impression as well. I suspect not only are Charles and Eloise siblings, but they are the parents of Daniel, Penny AND Desmond, and that baby Charlie, product of at least 2 generations of incest, will be left in the past to become THE Charles Widmore. Dun dun dun.

When Charlie Hume goes back in time and has a kid with Ellie, that will really mess up the timeline. But, you know, WHH.

As I said in the post above- the use of the music made me believe something crazy.....trust me guys there is something going on with these two....its complicated, then that music....unless it was a nod to the non- die hard fans......just seemed to me like they were suggesting something else going on here.

I think everyone would agree that there is something strange about these two. But I don't think most people's minds went straight to "hey, they're playing really crazy music, these two MUST be brother and sister".

No incest on a major network in prime time.

I think the music was for her pregnancy

and for the possible parallels to jack and kate

Nailed it! Right & right. IMHO
Siblings...:7:

We all picked this one up, yes?

Maybe Charles kidnapped Ellie and she fell in love with him.

lol...alright guys, you have totally pwned me...i agree it is probably not incest


Everyone can go tell me to see Dr Freud if that was the first thing i thought of...but it seemed like he was going to say they are lovers...then he thought 'they are also siblings'....which is why he said 'its complicated'..then the music came on and i was like...whoa

Flame on. ;)

At least you have a good sense of humor about it.....;)

umm. no. and ew...

I think what Richard was implying was that Charles (at this point) is not the sole leader of the Hostiles. In fact, I think it's Ellie in 1977 (and Charles was exaggerating or sharing power with her). Richard is the advisor...who does he go with? Ellie.

I have to admit that this sibling idea crossed my mind during the episode, too, but I'm not sure if it was because of the same scene. Eloise said she was 17 when she met Daniel in the 1950's, the same age as Widmore, which made me think they might be twins. Then I remembered that Widmore was supposed to be Daniel's father...and I decided that it would be too weird, even for Lost. But who knows.

I thought it was emphasized with music, because Jack and Kate were also going through a rough patch and it was the usual "so their situation is kind of like ours, wow incredible" moment. If there is something more to it, I don't see why it's necessarily incest. Though that would explain why Daniel turned out to be such a buttmunch

Hi
Long time lurker, first time poster...
Umm, just another angle- I know we are supposed to assume that Charles is Daniel's dad, but the only clue to that was Charles saying so (and getting a slap for it...) I think they are siblings, and Charles is not Daniel's father (just calls him his son, or took the place of his dad in raising or something?)

Anyway, this is all based on the fact that Ellie and Charles both have blue eyes, which makes it impossible for Daniel (brown eyed) to be Charles' son as 2 blue eyed parents cannot have a brown eyed child. I know they are actors, but I don't think the writers of Lost would make that kind of mistake???

No they didn't. The actress that played Alex wore contacts.

I thought all along that Eloise & Charles were siblings,until last week. Since then, I've been hoping that Charles wasn't being literal when he said that Daniel was his son too. (Like Kate being Aaron's mom).

Hi
Long time lurker, first time poster...
Umm, just another angle- I know we are supposed to assume that Charles is Daniel's dad, but the only clue to that was Charles saying so (and getting a slap for it...) I think they are siblings, and Charles is not Daniel's father (just calls him his son, or took the place of his dad in raising or something?)

Anyway, this is all based on the fact that Ellie and Charles both have blue eyes, which makes it impossible for Daniel (brown eyed) to be Charles' son as 2 blue eyed parents cannot have a brown eyed child. I know they are actors, but I don't think the writers of Lost would make that kind of mistake???
It is not impossible for two blue-eyed parents to have a brown-eyed child. There is an entire thread on that subject in the Variable.
http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=112701

If they were siblings shouldn't the dramatic music have been some kind of "dueling banjos" or something?

We all picked this one up, yes?
lol i doubt that Richard meant it was complicated in that way
every lost relationship is complicated
plus they have different last names anyway

She is just pregnant with his baby - Faraday.

The music was dramatic because Jack and Kate probably just realized that Widmore is Daniel's father. Or the fact that Widmore was looking at his own dead son and did not know.

fair enough. all good points

i still think the music was used inappropriately. as said, it was used well when John said 'me'

but in that context- erm, ok..yeah, we know its complicated....yeah, we know they are in relationships....so?

imho, it should be used only for reveals that we havent heard of before...it was over emphasied....anyway, im repeating myself.

There is def. something with those 2 tho, mark my words.

fair enough. all good points

i still think the music was used inappropriately. as said, it was used well when John said 'me'

but in that context- erm, ok..yeah, we know its complicated....yeah, we know they are in relationships....so?

imho, it should be used only for reveals that we havent heard of before...it was over emphasied....anyway, im repeating myself.

There is def. something with those 2 tho, mark my words.


we all know how things and events repeat themselves on the island.....we have seen this before, right? Hawking and Widmore are step brother and sister, just like Rutherford and Carlysle.

Jacob brought Bonne and Shannon to the island as the stand ins for Charles and Eloise.

I thought its complicated was a facebook reference!

I thought its complicated was a facebook reference!

Thankfully, it wasnt though.

The comp;icated relationship thing made me think that either one or both of them is in a serious relationship with another person. Incest-eww

I think the weirdness comes from the fact that they are romantically/sexually involved, but also sharing a leadership role on the island. That makes things very complicated indeed, especially when we have seen that they don't always see eye-to-eye on leadership decisions.

everyone needs to cut jack bauer a little slack; he hasn't slept or used the bathroom in 24 hours.


that's a good one!!

The scene was overly dramatized. We knew or could surmise that they were lovers for ages now. No surprise at all. That's why the music stood out to you as odd, but it wasnt meant to imply anything THAT odd.

2 blue eyed parents cannot have a brown eyed child. I know they are actors, but I don't think the writers of Lost would make that kind of mistake???

It is not impossible for two blue-eyed parents to have a brown-eyed child.Yeah, I am SO tired of this argument.

If they were siblings shouldn't the dramatic music have been some kind of "dueling banjos" or something?:biglaugh:

Honestly though, I watched a program recently and with genetic councelling it is possible these days for relatives to breed and even produce "superior" results than was once thought. Gross, I know, but wasn't a lot of the heirarchies in ancient civilizations determined by this? Anyone know how the Egyptians were concerning this?

If they were siblings shouldn't the dramatic music have been some kind of "dueling banjos" or something?

HaHaHa

Maybe Richard is the real father.

I do not think they know who the father is..

Dan was conceived during the annual Others Orgy at the Beach.

as for the dramatic music, I think that was due to Jacks reaction/realization that the long haired wanker who knocked him on his but was the Charles Widmore.

Whiskey.Tango.Foxtrot.

Richard says something about love being a complicated thing sometimes, and your mind immediately turns to incest?:ermm:

I read this and giggled out loud in the middle of a silent classroom. TOO funny!

Hi
Long time lurker, first time poster...
Umm, just another angle- I know we are supposed to assume that Charles is Daniel's dad, but the only clue to that was Charles saying so (and getting a slap for it...) I think they are siblings, and Charles is not Daniel's father (just calls him his son, or took the place of his dad in raising or something?)

Anyway, this is all based on the fact that Ellie and Charles both have blue eyes, which makes it impossible for Daniel (brown eyed) to be Charles' son as 2 blue eyed parents cannot have a brown eyed child. I know they are actors, but I don't think the writers of Lost would make that kind of mistake???


I have brown eyes and both of my parents had blue eyes. And yes...they are both my biological parents.
I should tell you that my dad is a Cherokee with a 'white' blue eyed mother and I suppose that somehow he got her eyes......but I always chuckle when I read these statements..

Incest didn't even cross my mind in that scene. Perhaps the leaders of the others are fobidden to be in any kind of romantic relationship and that's what makes it complicated...just an idea.

Maybe Richard is the real father.

Perhaps, haha, cuz my first though when Widmore said Dan looked familiar was 'really, he looks nothing like you, or Eloise...'

I guess "love [can be] complicated."

I agree I consider myself to be a fairly smart man and didn't once think of them being brother and sister. To say it was obvious feels like we are watching two different shows. If it is true I'll give you all the credit, but love being complicated can mean a variety of things. How about it was an arrainged marriage so their love was forced. How about the leader of the others (Widmore) gets his pick of the litter with the women. It could mean anything.

If they were siblings shouldn't the dramatic music have been some kind of "dueling banjos" or something?
That was FUNNY!!!!!!:biggrin:
100%
fair enough. all good points

i still think the music was used inappropriately. as said, it was used well when John said 'me'

but in that context- erm, ok..yeah, we know its complicated....yeah, we know they are in relationships....so?

imho, it should be used only for reveals that we havent heard of before...it was over emphasied....anyway, im repeating myself.

There is def. something with those 2 tho, mark my words.
Just want to say I love Jack Bauer!

BrothuJefe:I can see the Dan childhood flashback now:

Dan, to Widmore: "Dad, you've always been my favorite uncle!"[/quote]


*** mod edit ***

I just read Doc Jensen's recap over at EW and he said he thought Eloise and Charles had a brother and sister vibe. Maybe you are on to something but I hope not.

umm. no. and ew...

I think what Richard was implying was that Charles (at this point) is not the sole leader of the Hostiles. In fact, I think it's Ellie in 1977 (and Charles was exaggerating or sharing power with her). Richard is the advisor...who does he go with? Ellie.


I think there is a power struggle... In the first scene that we see the two of them together, Charles is telling Ellie to "Shut up"... Seems like Ellie is in charge now... Im sure that is what has made it Complicated. I do agree that something is fishy though. Charles says Dan is his son too and gets a slap... is that a normal "you weren't ever around to raise him" slap or a hint to a more complicated and twisted plot line?

This thread totally caught my eye, not because i'm a fan of incest, mind you, but because WAY back on the epi where young Charles and ellie are in 1954, and charles tells ellie to “shut up”, it SO sounded to me like a bro/sis comment. and that has stuck with me, but then i assumed i'd been wrong. so, who knows....maybe i was just over-analyzing....or maybe not.:)

BOONE: It's what she does. She postures.
SHANNON: You don't know what the hell I do!
BOONE: Makes really bad decisions to upset her family, which, at the moment, is me.
SHANNON: Shut up, and stop trying to be charming. [to Kate and Sayid] I'm coming with you.

BOONE: It's what she does. She postures.
SHANNON: You don't know what the hell I do!
BOONE: Makes really bad decisions to upset her family, which, at the moment, is me.
SHANNON: Shut up, and stop trying to be charming. [to Kate and Sayid] I'm coming with you.


Thank you. :)

I said before that Widmore and Hawking were step brother and step sister just like Boone and Shannon but it got buried under all the speculation of incest.:confused:

I think we're on the same wavelength. :cool:

I think so, too. Although I wouldn't be surprised if they are full on siblings, considering the writers originally wanted to make Boone and Shannon real siblings. I definitely agree with you that there are Shannon/Boone parallels...and I've always believed that Shannon and Boone provided major foreshadowing for something deeper going on in the storyline of the show.

ew no. doubt incest will be a LOST storyline

Boone & Shannon would like to have a word with you.

Boone & Shannon would like to have a word with you.

There's no incest if there's no blood relation.

Don't feel bad Jack_Bauer - even Doc Jensen mentioned this in his recap today.

CREEPY OBSERVATION OF THE WEEK! Was it just me, or did you, too, get a brother/sister vibe from these two, too? I like to think they were once akin to the Narnia/Pan/Potter kids, who fell into this enchanted world and never wanted to leave...but not only did that not work out, staying as long they did came at a spiritually corrupting cost.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,1550612_20245769_20277373,00.html

There's no incest if there's no blood relation.


There might not incest, but there definately is philth. :rolleyes:

We have already seen Boon and Shannon hook up , so there is incest #1 and people thought earlier this season that young widmore and eloise acted like brother and sister . And i thought the same thing when richard said it's complicated:undecide:

We have already seen Boon and Shannon hook up , so there is incest #1 and people thought earlier this season that young widmore and eloise acted like brother and sister . And i thought the same thing when richard said it's complicated:undecide:

Shannon and Bonne where step-siblings,not blood relatives so there was no incest involved.
Traditional definition of incest: sexual intercourse between blood relatives.

Legal definition of incest.: The crime of sexual contact with a blood relative usually including a parent, child, sibling, grandparent or grandchild.

We have already seen Boon and Shannon hook up , so there is incest #1 and people thought earlier this season that young widmore and eloise acted like brother and sister . And i thought the same thing when richard said it's complicated:undecide:


I just thought it was a parallel to Jack and Kate's complicated relationship and a much better line of dialogue than having Richard say "they're dating, but it's SOOO on and off. What about you two? Anybody special?"

BUT where there's smoke (no pun intended) there's sometimes fire. Maybe they are siblings and it's not as nasty as sleeping together but some sort of Island-decreed insemination? Or maybe, a la Boone-Shannon, they're step-siblings. We initially thought of them as siblings but, while it may have seemed icky (and slightly was), they didn't share blood. So maybe that's what Richard was hinting at.

While scientifically it might not be considered incest, anthropologically it depends on what culture you are in. Relationships between adopted or step-family members are usually considered incestuous, at the very least, if not actual incest.

On the incest taboo by Sam Vaknin (http://www.globalpolitician.com/2987-sex)

Quote from this article:
Many types of relationships, which are defined as incestuous, are between genetically unrelated parties (a stepfather and a daughter), or between fictive kin or between classificatory kin (that belong to the same matriline or patriline). In certain societies (the Native American or the Chinese) it is sufficient to carry the same family name (=to belong to the same clan) and marriage is forbidden.

Some incest prohibitions relate to sexual acts - others to marriage. In some societies, incest is mandatory or prohibited, according to the social class (Bali, Papua New Guinea, Polynesian and Melanesian islands). In others, the Royal House started a tradition of incestuous marriages, which was later imitated by lower classes (Ancient Egypt, Hawaii, Pre-Columbian Mixtec). Some societies are more tolerant of consensual incest than others (Japan, India until the 1930's, Australia).

Also, this quote touches on some other major LOST themes -- mirrors, narcissism, the ability to have nor not have empathy for others:

"Having sex with a first-degree blood relative is like having sex with oneself. It is a Narcissistic act and like all acts Narcissistic, it involves the objectification of the partner. The incestuous Narcissist over-values and then devalues his sexual partner. He is devoid of empathy (cannot see the other's point of view or put himself in her shoes)."

The author also has some interesting comments about possible future apocalyptic scenarios which might force incest to become the norm.

Glad to see I am not the only one who is getting into incest (ok, that came out wrong)

It would totally explain the massive 'slap' that Widmore got from Eloise.....in hind-sight it was a slap of 'How dare you bring up the day that happened...how dare you!"

Brb, terrorist.

Glad to see I am not the only one who is getting into incest (ok, that came out wrong):105:

on a serious note - incest is in mythology and we've all read it at one point. This is ABC primetime television. If they ARE siblings, then Dan is NOT his son, and when he called him that he maybe meant he was a "father figure" or he saw himself as one

As I said in the post above- the use of the music made me believe something crazy.....trust me guys there is something going on with these two....its complicated, then that music....unless it was a nod to the non- die hard fans......just seemed to me like they were suggesting something else going on here.

I know. I was sitting there watching the episode with my wife and we had this conversation:

Me: Wow. Dramatic Music.
Wife: Yep. What could that mean?
Me: Some thing's up with those two, I mean, did you hear that music?
Wife: Tell me about it, what's with that dramatic music?
Me: I think there is something crazy going on.
Wife: You mean with Widmore and Eloise?
Me: Absolutely, I mean the music and the . . .
Wife: What could it be.
Me: I'm pretty sure they're brother and sister.
Wife: I know, I was just thinking the same thing.
Me: Because of the music?
Wife: Yep.

^^Yep, that is exactly what i was saying...

I love the music in lost and how it drops a mind-screw in there...and then the music builds up and it cuts to a commercial or the end of the episode- just think of the feeling you got when Locke said that he was going to kill Jacob and you get that rush of emotions as Ben's eye starts popping out.

That is what the music did in that scene......build up build up build up build up...."It's complicated"..

People saying it is complicated in lost always, that is why the music was there. Jack and Kate didnt know about it. That is why the music was there. I disagree. It was one of those build up the moments then cut away at the climax, that could not be justified by one of these minor implications. They were hinting at something.....perhaps we will never find out, but i reckon they threw some kind of spanner in the works there in that scene. Alpert did not want to talk about it.

Maybe the island wanted them to have incest. Is there a God of incest?

Rock on, JB aka Jack "Non-Incest Condoning" Bauer.

:105:

on a serious note - incest is in mythology and we've all read it at one point. This is ABC primetime television. If they ARE siblings, then Dan is NOT his son, and when he called him that he maybe meant he was a "father figure" or he saw himself as one

Yes, Incest is in Mythology....it's also in religion, and we all know that LOST has a whole buncha religious overtones.

The story that always comes to my mind is about "Lot", who was advised to leave the city of Sodom (as God viewed it as wicked) by 2 angels. Lot left with his daughters and wife, all told not to look back. Lots wife turned around to see fire and brimstone rain upon their city. Because of her sin of "looking back", Lots wife was turned to a pillar of salt. Lot and his daughters found refuge in a cave. His daughters incorrectly assumed they were the only survivors on Earth and they needed to repopulate mankind. On two different nights they got Lot drunk on wine and, well........ Got all Shannon on his Boone.

Before Eloise and Charles found a way off the island, perhaps they also thought they needed to.....uh, "repopulate the Hostiles".:eek2:

Well, unless you read the Genesis text from some romantic position where Eve is brought to Adam as a bride (sans the white gown and veil as her father walks her down an aisle) rather than as an older brother who is presented with a baby sister, we might want to see how A&E fit into this mix since, as someone else pointed out, LOST throws in various relligious allusions all the time.

In the Genesis text, Adam is la la la-ing it until the Creator steps in and says, "It is not good for man to be alone." Adam is the one making all the decisions, the one having sole dominion over everything. In response to this, along comes the creation of a Help Meet, one whom Adam must learn to joyfully share power with since being made in the image of a Creator requires somehow reflecting the Creator's attributes a la parent/child--you may not look like your parent, especially if you are adopted, but there are things about you that reflect that you have a relationship with your parent such as mannerisms, outlooks, preferences, etc.

This "Help Meet" as the she is called (her original "name" as it were) is created AFTER Adam (meaning from the ground) has been commanded to name all the other animals. Adam doesn't go searching for a companion--the text doesn't say that he is lonely, but rather he is ALONE, like an only child. And he names the animals indicating his dominion over them.

If one understands this about the narrative, it makes sense to see why the Genesis text makes such a big deal about "bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh." Adam, after coming up with names for other things based on something he understands about them, grasps that this "Help Meet" is to be an equal since she is OF him, He grasps that she is of the same substance as he is rather than of some other substance, meaning the Creator designed it so that he can't eventually claim that one substance is "greater than" or "more valuable" than another substance.

But the text has something interesting in it that most people don't see. Based on when this "bone of my bone" comment is made, it also highlights by omission that Adam has not NOT been given the command to name this new creature compared to what he is commanded to do with the other animals. It would seem that he makes this decision ALONE. He doesn't look at this "Help Meet" and ask, "Uh, Creator, what is this one to be named since I cannot name this one 'cause I didn't name myself, so I cannot name this one?" or even, "Uh, Creator, do I have permission to name this one?" He just ASSUMES that he has the authority to act on his own to name her, which is actually doing the very thing that was previous said was "not good."

Many people translate this part of the narrative to mean that both genders were to share dominion, not have him have dominion over her. By actually choosing to name her, however, Adam oversteps his dominion. It would also appear that the whole "serpant" event which follows is a direct result of the wrong use of power since the both of them EACH chooses to act ALONE in their decision-making processes. She doesn't ask Adam anything when the serpent spins his comments laced with half-truths, even though Adam is right there. And Adam doesn't interject when she utters a false statement about what the boundaries were connected to this Tree of Knowledge, even though Adam was the one to have originally received the information about boundaries and knew that her comment to the serpent was wrong.

So, assuming that the Genesis text is about siblings who love each other, yet included the idea of sibling relations being "complicated" we don't have to go any further than Adam and Eve, and we already know that those two are on our LOST Island. :rolleyes:

^ beautiful man. I love it.....Adam and Eve from the caves are .....well, Adam and Eve. Charles and Eloise.

^ beautiful man. I love it.....Adam and Eve from the caves are .....well, Adam and Eve. Charles and Eloise.

And since Jack is with Eloise and Charles in 1977, he could easily pass along the black and white stones.

I, too, was firmly in the $%##@!!! camp when JB suggested Eloise and Charles were siblings.

However, if we stick to the Egyptian motif, there ya go ... historical incestuous matings of brothers and sisters.

The progeny of Adam & Eve would also have had quite limited social options.

I do not believe that the two are siblings. I figure them to have been bright, aggressive, self-assured and egocentric personalities that got sexually involved; and shared emotional intimacies and a pregnancy from such a collision of egos could indeed get quite messy.

I can also see them as having parented Penelope.

Who do you think Cain and Abel fathered their children with to keep the human race going.....?

Just read through all this and Pibk Human beat me to the Adam and Eve thing!

I also agree with those saying that ancient civilizations and religions and mythologies have a bloodline passed on from generation to generation sometimes with relatives involved.
Hell, even the British Royal family's lineage is kinds, err, interspliced!
If we are dealing with an ancient race here, it could be true-I have to admit I felt similar to Jack Bauer after that music and Richards complicated comment. I was maybe subconciously thinking it was a possibility too cos of them shouting at each other when younger, the slap last week, etc

I think JB's original tone in his post is why he is being laughed at a little, bit I have a similar hunch to him !

I got the siblings vibe from Richard's 'complicated' comment too.

I've read and sympathise with the whole 'two parents with blue eyes don't produce a brown eyed child' thing, but the Egyptology makes me think Charles and Ellie - who appears to be the actual leader - are a royal house type of deal where 'keeping it in the family' has taken on the tone for which the Ancients marital arrangements are notorious.

Ellie and Charles both have a lovely head of curls too. :biggrin:

Richard I think holds a priestly position - but as he's most often suggested as the probable actual father of Dan, the less said about that the better!