Jack, however, has a ton of guilt over all those dead bodies he's not been able to save. He can easily shift into "erase" mode because his heart wouldn't have to carry the guilt any longer. that's actually selfish on Jack's part--he can't bear the pain any longer, so he'll "undo" things.

Kate points out that to "undo" things means erasing the good with the bad--the joy along with the pain. She came back to the Island when she could have chosen to erase the pain--she chose to give up Aaron and embrace the pain rather than run from it.

Is Jack trying right--this is their destiny to change the past--or is Kate right--reminding Jack that all things work together the way they do for a reason, and pain is PART of the way things work together?

I think Kate's right. You do have to go through pain to get to the good stuff, to improve, to learn lessons.

I think ultimately Kate is right, that you can't cancel the past and that their time together wasn't all misery. That part is just where Jack's heart is at right now, and that's understandable, since Kate pretty much told him to stay away a couple days ago. It's built up to where he's not going to sit back and be her doormat anymore.

But that aside, there's also the not small matter of the 200+ people who died in the crash and the dozen of their friends who died afterwards on the island. I don't see it selfish to want to save those lives. Their families have had a world of pain since the crash and he sees a way to right that. Tying it to a personal wish to mitigate his own failure is missing the point - he talked first about how those people would be alive.

It's one of those things that they both make good points and ultimately, both make valid points. Who is right, who is wrong I really don't know. But is the sacrifice worth the outcome? I think it is, however heartbreaking it may be to erase all the wonderful moments that Jack and Kate have shared.

I myself prefer kate's perspective.

Jack's a weenie. I bet he was an emo kid growing up.

I understand where Jack is coming from and their conversation in the tent is one of those destination vs. coincidence themes central to Lost. Kate wasn't just referring to she and Jack she was talking about all of the relationships they formed on the island. And I understand what Jack has been through that would make him want to change the future but as Sawyer told him he is reacting and not thinking. He isn't thinking of the consequences of preventing the 815 crash. But then Daniel may not have been either, he was trying to come up with a way to change the future so Charlotte would live. If Jack did preven the crash, he and Kate never would meet. But Kate would go to jail, Ji Yeon would never have been conceived, among other things.

I think Kates right - you cant just erase 3 years of your life. good or bad

I agree with Kate even though she could be also thinking of herself knowing she was on her way to jail, I dont think that is her main motivation behind going against Jack.

But that aside, there's also the not small matter of the 200+ people who died in the crash and the dozen of their friends who died afterwards on the island. I don't see it selfish to want to save those lives. Their families have had a world of pain since the crash and he sees a way to right that. Tying it to a personal wish to mitigate his own failure is missing the point - he talked first about how those people would be alive.

Agreed. I don't think Jack was being selfish at all - he was trying to save all those people. As Kate pointed out, it would mean sacrificing the past three years of their lives though. I think from our perspective, knowing whatever happened, happened and being invested in the events of the past few years, Kate's argument makes sense. But I think Jack's actions are appropriate and make sense for his character. He's thinking of what's best for 300+ people, not just the remaining 815 survivors.

But I think Jack's actions are appropriate and make sense for his character.

i agree. Jack has always been the "fixer"

And what kind of lives would those survivors have lived?

Jack will still be a control freak with a bend towards addiction.
Kate will go on trial for murder.
Sawyer will still hunt down "Sawyer."
Hugo will still feel cursed by the numbers.
Charlie will still be a heroine addict.
Claire will not learn to forgive herself for her mother's accident.
Shannon will still be a spoiled brat.
Boone will still be obsessed with Shannon.
Sayid will not get to be reunitd with Nadia, even for a brief time.
Walt will still be emotionally unattached to Michael.
Locke will still be in a wheelchair.

I've not listed all of the things Jack is forgetting to consider, but it seems that Kate is thinking along these lines. Jack wants to fix things, and for him fixing things is beginning to look like undoing things. He needs to read MacBeth--what's done is done; what's done cannot be undone.

Just like in the classroom, Jack is trying to erase things.

And what kind of lives would those survivors have lived?

Jack will still be a control freak with a bend towards addiction.
Kate will go on trial for murder.
Sawyer will still hunt down "Sawyer."
Hugo will still feel cursed by the numbers.
Charlie will still be a heroine addict.
Claire will not learn to forgive herself for her mother's accident.
Shannon will still be a spoiled brat.
Boone will still be obsessed with Shannon.
Sayid will not get to be reunitd with Nadia, even for a brief time.
Walt will still be emotionally unattached to Michael.
Locke will still be in a wheelchair.


Things would be worse for the main characters, but what about the other 300 or so people on the plane? The pilot would still be alive, Zach and Emma would be able to meet their parents, Scott and Steve and Joanna would still be alive, Ana Lucia would get to reunite with her mother, etc. It would be worse for the people we know, who were able to grow and change on the island, but it would better for all the other people on the plane. I think that's where Jack's coming from.

I think Kate is right on the larger point. It is the two basic flavors of morality. Kate's flavor is also the one endorsed by all religions in existence, to the best of my knowledge: Some things are just bad; you don't do them. You don't murder 12-year-olds. You don't blow up an island full of people with an H-bomb. Those are bad things. Jack and Sayid's flavor (which is not what their religions, Catholicism and Islam teach) is that you do what you think will lead to the best outcome in the end, i.e., the ends justify the means. But since neither of them is God, regardless of their personal ends, they have no idea of the actual long-term consequences that would result from their actions. So they are committing attrocities without any real certain knowledge that some good is going to outweigh what they're doing. In short, they're playing God, and Kate is right that they're morally off base.

But that aside, there's also the not small matter of the 200+ people who died in the crash and the dozen of their friends who died afterwards on the island. I don't see it selfish to want to save those lives. Their families have had a world of pain since the crash and he sees a way to right that. Tying it to a personal wish to mitigate his own failure is missing the point - he talked first about how those people would be alive.
I have to disagree a bit, I think it is selfish on Jack's part. He isn't thinking of the 200+ people who died. When he said all this misery never happened and enough of it was in response to Kate he wasn't thinking of those people, or even the misery all of the losties endured on the island he is thinking of the pain he endured and nobody elses. The pain emotional and physical was horrible for him, but what about Locke and James who seem to think the pain they endured was transformative? It could also be argued that Jack's pathological need to fix things is in itself rather selfish.

maybe this will turn out to belong on a different thread, but I think what Kate was really asking was about her and Jack. He is supposed to love her, how can he turn his back on that, just to be the hero?

but also I think Kate is right. I'm feeling like a WHH'er here, but the island was there destiny, healing, judgement, birth, death.

As Mr. Spock has stated many times: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one (or few). Jack may include himself and Kate when he said misery, but as much as people see Jack in the negative light, he has always put the welfare of the Losties in front. It sounds selfish, but he's thinking of the rest of the people that were on 815 and their families. They've had their chance to live, so why not let those who originally didn't make it have theirs? Again, it's a matter of perspective, so I don't know if there is a right or wrong way to view this, just as the glass being half empty or half full.

maybe this will turn out to belong on a different thread, but I think what Kate was really asking was about her and Jack. He is supposed to love her, how can he turn his back on that, just to be the hero?


I certainly think that's part of it too. The way she said 'we would never have met' (paraphrase) was specifically referring to her and Jack, as opposed to all the survivors. She and Jack have known each other and been a big part of each other's lives for three years now. I do think she is hurt that he is willing to just erase everything that happened between them, even if some of it was painful.

As Mr. Spock has stated many times: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one (or few). Jack may include himself and Kate when he said misery, but as much as people see Jack in the negative light, he has always put the welfare of the Losties in front. It sounds selfish, but he's thinking of the rest of the people that were on 815 and their families. They've had their chance to live, so why not let those who originally didn't make it have theirs? Again, it's a matter of perspective, so I don't know if there is a right or wrong way to view this, just as the glass being half empty or half full.

Agreed! We see it as "Charlie would still be an addict and Locke would still be paralyzed" if the plane didn't crash. But if the plane didn't crash, hundreds of other people would get to live and save their families the grief and pain.

Agreed! We see it as "Charlie would still be an addict and Locke would still be paralyzed" if the plane didn't crash. But if the plane didn't crash, hundreds of other people would get to live and save their families the grief and pain.

We are not sure that Faraday was right and that his plan will work... so let's not take for granded that flight 815 will not crash and the passengers will be saved...
but even if Faraday and Jack are right...
what about all the people on the island that may die if jack finally detonates that bomb!!!!!

I want to see Jack explain to Jin why his baby shouldn't be conceived. Let's see how that works.

I think Kate's right but I see Jack's point. Neither of them are thinking of the passengers who died in the crash. Like Pink Human pointed out, for all the misery, the Losties had good times, learned to accept different kinds of people, they had personal growth they otherwise wouldn't have had. Claire got the experience the joys of motherhood. She wouldn't have had that if she had gotten to LA. Jack would have never learned to forgive himself or his father. He never would have learned about his sister. Kate would have been in prison and I don't think that's ever crossed Jack's mind.

Or the possibility that she is pregnant with Jack's child could be swaying her emotionally.. I've felt for a while she is pregnant.. If that's the case, on some sub-conscious level she could be feeling that Jack not only doesn't want her, but he doesn't want their baby.

maybe this will turn out to belong on a different thread, but I think what Kate was really asking was about her and Jack. He is supposed to love her, how can he turn his back on that, just to be the hero?
Jack does love Kate, but she's always been expendable. This wouldn't be the first time he's turned his back on her, left her behind for "the greater good". Jack has become the man of destiny that he was always meant to be. That's not going to include Kate, in the bigger scheme of things. Jack knows that, which is why it's so easy for him to wash his hands of everything, including his 10 minutes of happiness with her.

but also I think Kate is right. I'm feeling like a WHH'er here, but the island was there destiny, healing, judgement, birth, death.

I agree with you, I think Kate is right. She's right in that it wasn't all misery. Many good things happened because of their plane crashing. Claire was on her way to Los Angeles to give up Aaron. After he was born, she wouldn't have even known him. If you gave Claire that choice now, after spending the first three months of his life with her son, do you think she'd be jazzed for Jack to "reset" that?

Kate spent three years playing surrogate mommy to Aaron. She managed to get herself free from that laundry list of crimes, she managed to create a stable home for her and her "son". Of course she's not going to be excited about Jack wiping all that away!

Jack met Sawyer, who informed him of a conversation with Christian in Australia where Christian revealed that he was proud of his son. He didn't blame Jack for what happened, and he loved him. Jack wants to forget that?

Sawyer has become a good person, he's reconciled with his past and has turned from "every man for himself" to a "live together, die alone" mentality (and I mean Sawyer, I don't mean LaFleur, who has somehow misplaced his testosterone.) Erase all that, and he goes back to the self-loathing con man, ruining more womens' lives and stealing their money.

Desmond and Penny may never be reunited.

The list goes on and on. Yes, if Jack succeeds, 200 people will be saved...but at what cost? How many other lives may be ruined?

I think Kate's right. You do have to go through pain to get to the good stuff, to improve, to learn lessons.
No way, think of all the people who suffered and died needlessly as a result of the crash (including those killed in the crash itself!) Incredibly selfish thing for Kate to say, I didn't think it was great writing. You might in some dark recess of your mind think something like that, but I don't believe anyone would be tactless enough to say it.

No way, think of all the people who suffered and died needlessly as a result of the crash (including those killed in the crash itself!) Incredibly selfish thing for Kate to say, I didn't think it was great writing. You might in some dark recess of your mind think something like that, but I don't believe anyone would be tactless enough to say it.

I agree, for everyone who died it was horrible. I'm guess what I'm talking about is how Kate is thinking about all of the Losties who have improved their lives as a result of dying. Taking Lost as a show, I couldn't care less about the 200 people that died on the plane, as we know nothing of their story and it means nothing to the show. If it were real life it would be completely different...

No way, think of all the people who suffered and died needlessly as a result of the crash (including those killed in the crash itself!) Incredibly selfish thing for Kate to say, I didn't think it was great writing. You might in some dark recess of your mind think something like that, but I don't believe anyone would be tactless enough to say it.

I don't think it was selfish...I think it was human. Look at it from Kate's POV. She loved Aaron with all her heart. She fell in love with Sawyer on the Island, finally found someone she wanted to fight and stay for. Jack wants to make that all go away?

And if you look at it from other POVs, you'll get mixed reactions. If Jack could ask AnaLucia or Libby or Boone or Shannon, then I'm sure they'd be all for Jack succeeding. Would that not be selfish, knowing what would happen to the people who had survived and grown during the three years?

But then what about Charlie? He chose to die. He believed that by sacrificing his own life, he'd save Claire and Aaron. Had the plane never crashed, he'd possibly have just drugged himself to death. If Jack could give him the choice, what do you think Charlie would choose? A couple of months of happiness with Claire and Aaron, and a heroic death to save them? Or a return to the real world as a loser, heroin-addicted, washed up street musician?

And what about Claire? Would she choose to crash on the Island so she can keep her baby and get to know her son, as well as Charlie? Or would she want to carry on to LA and give Aaron up?

What would Rose & Bernard choose? Had the plane not crashed, then Rose would possibly be dead of her cancer by now. She wanted to stay on the Island, she told Bernard as much in 'S.O.S.'. They got more time together, Rose's cancer was cured, and they were happy enough because they were together.

What about Desmond? He got away from the accursed button, and away from the Island. He got Penny back. They built a wonderful life together, had a beautiful son...would Des want all that erased?

So to call Kate selfish may not be entirely accurate. :twocents:

And what kind of lives would those survivors have lived?

Jack will still be a control freak with a bend towards addiction.
Kate will go on trial for murder.
Sawyer will still hunt down "Sawyer."
Hugo will still feel cursed by the numbers.
Charlie will still be a heroine addict.
Claire will not learn to forgive herself for her mother's accident.
Shannon will still be a spoiled brat.
Boone will still be obsessed with Shannon.
Sayid will not get to be reunitd with Nadia, even for a brief time.
Walt will still be emotionally unattached to Michael.
Locke will still be in a wheelchair.

I've not listed all of the things Jack is forgetting to consider, but it seems that Kate is thinking along these lines. Jack wants to fix things, and for him fixing things is beginning to look like undoing things. He needs to read MacBeth--what's done is done; what's done cannot be undone.

Just like in the classroom, Jack is trying to erase things. First of all - cool catch on "Jack erasing things" from that previous ep on the blackboard.

I just can't see that extending any of those large and small personal problems in your list trumps the lives of 250 people. I dunno, maybe I'm dense. I cling to the idea that where there's life, there's hope, and some of the growth that our favorite Losties experienced after crashing on the island might have come about in another way, and the 200+ people that died might have gone on to have children, buy the new U2 album, make up with their estranged father, or kicked a bad habit or two themselves.

All in all I think it's a mistake to try and turn back time - it tempts fate in a serious way - but I think his motives are good.

maybe this will turn out to belong on a different thread, but I think what Kate was really asking was about her and Jack. He is supposed to love her, how can he turn his back on that, just to be the hero?


I agree - Kate was asking about "us" and what if they never had met. Each other.

I don't think it was selfish...I think it was human. Look at it from Kate's POV. She loved Aaron with all her heart. She fell in love with Sawyer on the Island, finally found someone she wanted to fight and stay for. Jack wants to make that all go away?
Somehow, I didn't get the vibe that she was thinking about Sawyer in that moment. Her tears were coming from the thought of erasing time so that she and Jack had never met. Can she be allowed this one moment?

From the perspective of the 200+ people who died in the initial crash--we have no guarantee that ANY of them would have had wonderful lives if there had been no crash. Some of them could have gone on to live lives that were filled with pain (emotional, physical, mental) and inflicted others with pain. The families of the 200+ people also are not guaranteed a "better" life just because the plane doesn't crash.

Existence alone does not guarantee anything. Just because those people would have survived and their families not faced THAT moment of grief does not automatically mean that there wouldn't have been suffering, perhaps even WORSE suffering--the passengers on Flight 815 did not linger for too long in their physical suffering once the plane broke apart--or that the survivors wouldn't have caused others to suffer. Perhaps BECAUSE of the pain the families of the 200+ passengers endured OTHER things happened or didn't happen.

Jack's is the short view;.Kate's perspective is the long view

Jack's in the moment perspective (his "moment" is the last three years) is reactionary. He is in pain and wants the pain to stop. He sees erasing the last three years as the means to that end. Kate seems to recognize that things work together a certain way, and I'd wager that somewhere in her psyche she has started to put together how her childhood, while not something she labeled "good" actually was "good" since it prepared her for her Destiny.

For all of Jack's new talk of embracing Destiny, he seems to still want to control it.

I definitely see where Jack is coming from. I mean, I understand that to get to where you need to be in life, you have to go through a lot of bad things; that's why Locke didn't try to contact himself while time jumping earlier on in the season. But maybe Jack believes that they were never supposed to be on the island in the first place, and all the people who died weren't supposed to die. And maybe even Kate would have been happier without ever knowing him. He sees enough perversion with everything on the island, even the good things, like relationships, and believes it would be better that none of those things ever happened.

Personally though, I believe Kate. If they never landed on the island, Rose would probably be dead by now. Sawyer would still be carrying his letter around, in complete agony about everything. Jack would be wandering around aimlessly, every once in a while spying on Sarah. Charlie would have died from complications from drugs, instead of getting clean and dying a hero. Desmond would have never seen Penny again, and would have probably killed himself like he was meaning to do. Juliet would have been Ben's slave until God knows what happened. Sun and Jin would have been on the run from her father for the rest of their lives, and they would never have conceived a child. Boone would have gone on saving Shannon from men who abused her, and Shannon would have let it happen, instead of finally finding a man who treated her right (Sayid, ironically a torturer). Hurley would have spent the rest of his life in an insane asylum.

And worst of all, Nikki and Paolo would have lived.

But who knows? Nobody has brought up course correction yet. Charlie was going to die, so he died. Even though it was on the island, it is very possible that course correction is universal. What if they never crashed on the island? They might have crashed somewhere else and everyone who died would have died in another way. Plus, we have no way to know that everybody else on the plane besides the ones we knew well were having wonderful lives. They might have been all as miserable as Jack and Kate.

From the perspective of the 200+ people who died in the initial crash--we have no guarantee that ANY of them would have had wonderful lives if there had been no crash. Some of them could have gone on to live lives that were filled with pain (emotional, physical, mental) and inflicted others with pain. The families of the 200+ people also are not guaranteed a "better" life just because the plane doesn't crash.

Wow. I hope none of our public health or national security officials have that outlook.

Wow. I hope none of our public health or national security officials have that outlook.

Oh, they may. They may have a "the needs of the one outweigh the needs of the few or even the many" Kirk reply. :rolleyes:
100%
And worst of all, Nikki and Paolo would have lived.

No kidding!!!!!!

She came back to the Island when she could have chosen to erase the pain--she chose to give up Aaron and embrace the pain rather than run from it.



How exactly could she have chosen to "erase the pain"?

of course she's right. it wasn't all misery. although the island was hell, she made new friends, she took care of aaron for almost 3 years, and she had a great relationship with jack until he fell apart. the shining moment in her life is aaron and to erase all those memories as if they would never have happened would be a great loss to her, whether she would know it or not.

Agreed. I don't think Jack was being selfish at all - he was trying to save all those people. As Kate pointed out, it would mean sacrificing the past three years of their lives though. I think from our perspective, knowing whatever happened, happened and being invested in the events of the past few years, Kate's argument makes sense. But I think Jack's actions are appropriate and make sense for his character. He's thinking of what's best for 300+ people, not just the remaining 815 survivors.


:eek2:

I have to be honest here. When he was taking care of the wounded on the beach, I would agree. When he helped them to survive in general, I would agree. Even when things were getting insane and he was fighting with the Others, I would agree. I can even to a point see where his mind was with the Freighter situation.

But saying that one person and one person alone should be able to make that decision for everyone is just...well. No. Man of Faith...means having Faith. Not control. This has nothing to do with shipping, this has nothing to do with any romance factor what-so-ever. It seems like there is more concern for the people that are already dead, than the ones that have become the most important to him.


I think Kate is right on the larger point. It is the two basic flavors of morality. Kate's flavor is also the one endorsed by all religions in existence, to the best of my knowledge: Some things are just bad; you don't do them. You don't murder 12-year-olds. You don't blow up an island full of people with an H-bomb. Those are bad things. Jack and Sayid's flavor (which is not what their religions, Catholicism and Islam teach) is that you do what you think will lead to the best outcome in the end, i.e., the ends justify the means. But since neither of them is God, regardless of their personal ends, they have no idea of the actual long-term consequences that would result from their actions. So they are committing attrocities without any real certain knowledge that some good is going to outweigh what they're doing. In short, they're playing God, and Kate is right that they're morally off base.

As always...:yes:

How exactly could she have chosen to "erase the pain"?

Well, that's actually part of Kate's point--you cannot erase the pain. She could, however, have denied that the past did, in fact, happen, which is exactly what she was trying to do off-Island. She tried to forget about all of it and live a fantasy--that's why O6 Kate could tell wheelchair Locke that she knew that all the ones left behind on the Island and didn't care what happened to them if she didn't return. She didn't want to endure the pain, and that's Jack's line of thinking at this point. He doesn't want the pain to continue BECAUSE he isn't looking beyond the now (or the next thirty years of now or however the timeline for them currently works.) His life off-Island, too, was about denial--a way to erase the pain. But denial doesn't really erase anything.

Kate seems more able to grasp that pain is a gift. The only way to understand how the pain is a gift is to NOT erase it. It doesn't FEEL like a gift until AFTER, and then you can reflect on what came WITH the pain. To focus on the pain (which is what happens DURING the pain) is to have Jack's short-sightedness. Kate's ability to endure pain--remember, she learned some of this in her childhood--has shaped her so that she can have a bigger perspective. Kate has already tried (and failed) in her many attempts to run from pain or to undo the past. She has learned (her Destiny is to learn this) that she cannot fight this battle and win. Jack still believes that he can save everyone via HIS actions. He has yet to unlearn that.

Kate stopped denying the past (she said that she came back to find Claire) and got on the plane. Her comment to Jack about them all being on the plane but that not meaning that they were thus together is coming true.

Jack took a leap of faith and so did she. After arriving in Dharmaville, he's been trying to figure out what his Destiny is since Juliet told him to figure it out, but Kate figured out that her Destiny was connected to finding Claire before getting on the plane. Jack THINKS that the bomb is his Destiny.

Destiny is a fickle female Vincent.

I think it's pathetic how she just changes from Sawyer to Jack simply because the plot demands some tension.

As an actress, i'm sure she's delighted the character will soon be finished.

As Actors I'm sure that the guys that can't seem to make up their own minds feel the same.

As Mr. Spock has stated many times: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one (or few). Jack may include himself and Kate when he said misery, but as much as people see Jack in the negative light, he has always put the welfare of the Losties in front. It sounds selfish, but he's thinking of the rest of the people that were on 815 and their families. They've had their chance to live, so why not let those who originally didn't make it have theirs?
I think that moral logic only holds water if it's your own life you're sacrificing. Jack and his friends will be alive and well in the future, and all the Hostiles and Dharma folks will have been murdered by Jack via H-Bomb in 1977. (At least it appears that's what he's thinking will be the result.) Somehow I think Anubis and St. Peter aren't going to swallow the Spock argument.

I think that moral logic only holds water if it's your own life you're sacrificing. Jack and his friends will be alive and well in the future, and all the Hostiles and Dharma folks will have been murdered by Jack via H-Bomb in 1977. (At least it appears that's what he's thinking will be the result.) Somehow I think Anubis and St. Peter aren't going to swallow the Spock argument.

Another excellent point. Like Kate told him, everyone on the Island will die. The Hostiles, the DI folks...how many of them will be wiped out by Jack's actions?

I have a feeling that his impulsiveness on this is gonna be quite a mess to behold. :drowsy:

[quote=IceKat55;2176998
I have a feeling that his impulsiveness on this is gonna be quite a mess to behold. :drowsy:[/quote]
Yes, it will result in death and destruction a morass of the worst sort, much more than the end result of Jack's plans.

Kate was wrong. Its been complete and total misery. Especially the triangle. I'm all for hitting the reset button..whatever it takes for Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet to have never crossed paths. I think the world would be a much better for that!;)