To start this off I'd like to say that I really don't consider myself either a Skater or Jater. I just like to see Kate, Jack and Sawyer all happy, and right now it seems that them all being haappy is Jack with Kate and Juliet with Sawyer. That Being said it is really ticking me off that Jack is deciding to hurt Kate this way. Not only is he throwing Away the past three years or so, he's forcing everyone else to too. People have changed, People have grown up, relationship's have blossomed and live's have been changed - Some for Bad but also many for the better. He got the one person on the island that would agree with him on his side last night so he feels that he is somehow vindicated in his decision.

This doesn't even mention the fact that many of these people had horrible exhistances they were about to face. For enstance Kate was going to prison. (Jack now want's to send her there.) John is apparently going to spend the rest of his life in a wheelchair, Hurley probably in a nut house, claire giving up Aarron (not sure if this one would be better or worse). Think of how Sun and Jin have gotten much closer in their 100 day's on the island together, That doesn't look like that would have happened in the real world.

Jack just seem's to be thinking of only himself here, not anyone else. I am not a Jack hater, I actually really like the character but in this instance he's being a *****!

I couldn't disagree more. I believe that though Jack may have some of his own self-interest at heart, basically he is trying to bring people back from the dead and undo all of the misery that has happened to so many people. And though Jack doesn't know it, Faraday and Desmond have shown that you can retain memories from mulitple timelines, so it is possible to undo the physical events, but that the Losties may actually retain the memories and experiences of what has happened.

i don't think jack's thinking about himself at all. i think that he's thinking about that if there is a chance to erase all the pain everyone went through on the island, who died and who was tortured, that he should do it. he's not thinking about the whole picture and what everyone would want. i don't think he realizes that jin couldn't get sun preggers off the island. no one ever told him that. locke never told him he was paralyzed before he landed on the island, and rose never told him she had cancer. no one shares anything with anyone on that island!

the only thing he's guilty of is making the decision without the input of anyone else.

i don't think he's being selfish. he's giving up his whole relationship with kate. she told him she didn't like the new jack and he said she didn't like the old without her denying it.

I agree with the OP, to a point, Jack is about to reset everyone's life without consulting with them, true the 200+ people who died in the 815 crash will be alive, and everyone who died on the Island will be alive, which is a good thing, but look at the growth of the 815 survivors, Jack, as is his mo, is acting without really thinking, Kate is going to go to jail, Charlie will remain a heroine junkie, Sawyer will never have changed, Hurley will probably wind up back in Santa Rosa, Rose will die, etc. The people who survived 815, and then survived the Island, have changed for the better, and resetting the events that followed the crash is a bad mistake.


Oh and Claire, I doubt there was ever a couple in LA that was going to meet her.

i agree about claire!

I'm a Jack fan, but I think I'm able to see things without a bias. Jack is being guided by the island or at least he thinks so. If he makes it so they never crashed, he'll never get to fall in love with Kate, that's a huge loss for him!

the only way jack may be thinking of himself is that he wants to erase the guilt for messing so much stuff up
he is trying to heal the wounds he has opened.

but talk about a leap of faith-
to detinate a bomb, obviously killing oneself....

but talk about a leap of faith-
to detinate a bomb, obviously killing oneself....

I agree it's a bit of an extreme, especially since you have no idea if it will actually work, Dan did say in relation to his talk with Chang, that he was just trying to make sure he "did what he's supposed to do" who's to say Dan is trying to change anything, maybe the whole idea is that Jughead is/was detonated, and that whatever happened, happened, and who better than Jack to get something done, so you feed him this idea, that you know he will love, and he runs with it all the way to the bank.

I think that Jack should have consulted with everyone else before making such a big decision. Maybe it is a throwback to the "everyone wants me to be a leader but when I do they question me" (something like that). Jack is used to thinking for other people. It is hard to realize that people do not look to you as a leader anymore. Jack probably has not realized that yet.

However, I think that in his head, he is doing it for everyone. He is thinking about Boone and Shannon and AL and Libby and Charlie and all the others that died and whose deaths he can prevent. His reasoning is noble, in it's way, but he is not really thinking about the whole picture here.

Cooper would still be alive too. :sick:

i am guessing eloise (in the future old lady) knows it will work? because it happened-
therefore, she pretty much ensured that all things happened the way they did (are happening)?
does that make sense

We could say that' he/she only thinks about him/herself' about all the characters at one time or another....right now I think Jack is an 'island convert' and you know what they say about converts. They are the loudest singers in the choir and he's absolutely convinced that this is what he is supposed to do. His 'calling' is to reset time. I think it goes above and beyond what the desires and wants of the individuals. There is a bigger picture with great things at stake...or so he will think.

Personally I hope it works because the triangles has inflicted more misery than I can say....I think all the characters involved are better off not ever meeting or meeting in much different circumstances.

Although I'm sure he is looking out for all of the Losties, I agree with the OP, at least the way we have seen Jack so far. I feel a selfish vibe.

I'm guessing Charlie, Ana-Lucia, Libby, Mr. Eko, Boone, Shannon, etc. don't think Jack is being too selfish. Sure some of them might have done some growing on the island, but I'll bet they'd rather be alive.

Realistically, how can Jack "check" with everyone to see what they want? And even if he could by some miracle, he is bound to get conflicting answers. It isn't a democratic decision he has to make, it is constrained by the circumstances he is in. I am with Maxaholic, he isn't being selfish, he is just trying to go with his gut and serve the greater good. If you asked someone one the street what is better, to prevent a plane crash and the death of hundreds of people or allow it to happen because a select few people "grew" from the experience or ended up in better situations, I think most people would say save the plane. We fans, who have lived through the growth and pain with these select few, might say different.

I am conflicted myselft as to what Jack should do, because I went through all that pain and growth with each character and can see Kate's point. But Jack has always looked at the big picture and struggled with what is the "right" thing to do.

Jack will never be able to the "right" thing, it is not a right/wrong scenario. There will be unfortunate consequences no matter what.

I'm a Jack fan, but I think I'm able to see things without a bias. Jack is being guided by the island or at least he thinks so. If he makes it so they never crashed, he'll never get to fall in love with Kate, that's a huge loss for him!

not sure he feels it would be a loss at this point - the relaionship in 2008/9 was basically over...it caused him a lot of pain.

Cooper would still be alive too. :sick:
Omg, are Locke and Sawyer aware of Jacks actions?:biggrin:

Molly, Jack said "everyone wants me to be the leader, until I make a decision that they don't like"


Plain and simple Jack is making a big mistake, and he will live to regret his decision, thankfuly we just get to sit back and watch him fall apart all over again, but I do see his point of view, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few.

After reading this thread I'm actually worried that this may actually happen. Who better to send in to do this job than Jack. Of course he's going to get it done. I can see the season ending with a bright flash and Jack opens his eyes and they are aboard Flight 815 again, the camera will pan around showing all the 815ers as the plane prepares for landing at LAX. Boom! LOST.

I'm guessing Charlie, Ana-Lucia, Libby, Mr. Eko, Boone, Shannon, etc. don't think Jack is being too selfish. Sure some of them might have done some growing on the island, but I'll bet they'd rather be alive.

Ji Yeon might have a few issues with it.

Ji Yeon might have a few issues with it.

You're right. There is a new baby. I guess Jack feels the lives of the dozens of people that died are more important.

I don't really WANT Jack to stop the crash, cuz then none of this happened (woudl I ever have typed this... whoa) But I just think calling Jack selfish is a little off-base.

not sure he feels it would be a loss at this point - the relaionship in 2008/9 was basically over...it caused him a lot of pain.

I disagree that it was over for good and if nothing else, he'd have amazing memories.

Jack clearly isn't thinking only of himself. I'd say his actions are in line with all his previous decisions, with a slight twist. Sure, he may be trying to erase some of the pains he personally has experienced because of the 815 crash, but I think he's thinking most of all of all the lives that could be saved, and the "miseries" avoided.

I won't agree that Jack is guided only by self-interest - purely from a utilitarian point of view, more people would've benefited if Flight 815 would've landed in LA than them crashing on the island - as attached as we may be to the characters at the center and their journey on the island - it doesn't outweigh the interests of those people who would've just preferred to live, with or without their issues.

Practically though, according to the show's set rules for time travel Jack's plan is destined to fail and at best him setting off the bomb might minimize the impact of the 'incident' - at worst him setting the bomb might be the incident itself. Thus by pursuing his sense of destiny he will fulfill his role, but not achieve the above scenario.

I won't agree that Jack is guided only by self-interest - purely from a utilitarian point of view, more people would've benefited if Flight 815 would've landed in LA than them crashing on the island - as attached as we may be to the characters at the center and their journey on the island - it doesn't outweigh the interests of those people who would've just preferred to live, with or without their issues.
With everyone in the DI and all the Hostiles being killed? That doesn't seem like necessarily less people dying to me. Even if it were, what gives him the right to decide who lives and who dies? He seems to be saying "enough of it was misery for me, so I'm going to blow up this island full of people to undo it." Not cool.

Realistically, how can Jack "check" with everyone to see what they want? And even if he could by some miracle, he is bound to get conflicting answers. It isn't a democratic decision he has to make, it is constrained by the circumstances he is in. I am with Maxaholic, he isn't being selfish, he is just trying to go with his gut and serve the greater good. If you asked someone one the street what is better, to prevent a plane crash and the death of hundreds of people or allow it to happen because a select few people "grew" from the experience or ended up in better situations, I think most people would say save the plane. We fans, who have lived through the growth and pain with these select few, might say different.

I am conflicted myselft as to what Jack should do, because I went through all that pain and growth with each character and can see Kate's point. But Jack has always looked at the big picture and struggled with what is the "right" thing to do.

Jack will never be able to the "right" thing, it is not a right/wrong scenario. There will be unfortunate consequences no matter what.


This is such a good post, I agree with it completely. IMO Jack is the one seeing the big picture and we are the ones lost in detail. He sees it as if the island interrupted their lives violently, sure it had some good consequences among the bad ones, but it was still an intervention into the normal course of things.

That being said I don't think it will work... or at least not in the way of resetting time and deleting everything that happened in the last 5 seasons. That would be very unproductive and it would bring along the wrath of the angry fans.

In the end they might not even have a choice. According to Richard they all die... so if they don't change anything we are about to get the zombie season next year.

How can an "I don't want the last three years to be erased because I like my life now" Kate be less selfish than "There were 324 people on that plane, most of them died, so I'm going to undo it" Jack?
With the Dharma folks being the ones who caused the plane to crash (due to their researches), I don't think it's a good comparison that they would lose their lives instead through Jughead.

Yes, it's somehow playing God. But I don't think that anyone on Oceanic815 had deserved to die.

I couldn't disagree more. I believe that though Jack may have some of his own self-interest at heart, basically he is trying to bring people back from the dead and undo all of the misery that has happened to so many people. And though Jack doesn't know it, Faraday and Desmond have shown that you can retain memories from mulitple timelines, so it is possible to undo the physical events, but that the Losties may actually retain the memories and experiences of what has happened.

But to quote Kate, Not all of it was misery. Also think about it, What happens to Desmond and Penny? If he is never pushed by Eloise to do the Boat race then they probably wouldve never ended up together.

And Desmond didn't remember things from a different time line, it was his linear time when he remember Daniel telling him to find his mom, it just hadn't happened yet.

I don't recall when Daniel might have remembered something from a different timeline so I can't comment on that one.

No, Jack is only thinking of himself, when he said all the pain would go away he was thinking of his own pain, he is also projecting his pain onto everyone else and believing they feel the same as him, but as Kate's reaction showed they don't. And yes, there has been a lot of pain. Jack's entire plan to change the future is an example of Jack reacting and not thinking as Sawyer said. He hasn't stopped to think of the consequences of preventing the crash, Kate goes to jail, Ji Yeon isn't born, and Charlie would be alive, possibly but given his heroin addiction pre crash he would either still be drug addled or possibly even dead. And when Jack says it was all misery not everyone is going to agree with Locke seems to view all of the pain he endured on the island as transformative, and James does to to a certain extent. All that having been said, I understand where Jack is coming from and why he wants to change the future.

I think that Jack should have consulted with everyone else before making such a big decision. Maybe it is a throwback to the "everyone wants me to be a leader but when I do they question me" (something like that). Jack is used to thinking for other people. It is hard to realize that people do not look to you as a leader anymore. Jack probably has not realized that yet.

However, I think that in his head, he is doing it for everyone. He is thinking about Boone and Shannon and AL and Libby and Charlie and all the others that died and whose deaths he can prevent. His reasoning is noble, in it's way, but he is not really thinking about the whole picture here.


Actually I think Jack has completely come to grips with the thought that no one looks to him as a leader anymore. He let Sawyer lead in Dharmaville, He let Kate leave, he even told Sayid that he would understand if he didnt' want to come. So I think he is taking the lone ranger approach. It's his way or the highway and no body is going to stop him.

I do agree that their is some nobility to his reasonings but basically everybodies life that has gotten better since coming to the island he is willing to forfiet without considering their viewpoint (and yes I know he could be happy with Kate) just because he wants to make himself feel better about those that he lost along the way.

I am a Jack fan, not a Jack hater but I have to say I am disapointed in his actions this week. He never thought twice about it even when Kate brought up an objection.
100%
I'm guessing Charlie, Ana-Lucia, Libby, Mr. Eko, Boone, Shannon, etc. don't think Jack is being too selfish. Sure some of them might have done some growing on the island, but I'll bet they'd rather be alive.


Actually.... I don't think their thinking anything at all, cause thier all Dead! So Im pretty sure they don't think Jack is selfish or unselfish. lol
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After reading this thread I'm actually worried that this may actually happen. Who better to send in to do this job than Jack. Of course he's going to get it done. I can see the season ending with a bright flash and Jack opens his eyes and they are aboard Flight 815 again, the camera will pan around showing all the 815ers as the plane prepares for landing at LAX. Boom! LOST.


Oh please No! that would suck. That would mean that we'd get no more answers about the island/Dharma/jacob/smokey or any of the thousands of questions that we still have that aren't answered yet.:frown: The whole next season would be about one person, probably Daniel trying to get everything back together again. Or about how they all meet in the REAL world in some coincidental happen chance. It'd be like a lllloooonnnnggggg Serindipity, in which case I think I would kill myself.
100%
This is such a good post, I agree with it completely. IMO Jack is the one seeing the big picture and we are the ones lost in detail. He sees it as if the island interrupted their lives violently, sure it had some good consequences among the bad ones, but it was still an intervention into the normal course of things.

That being said I don't think it will work... or at least not in the way of resetting time and deleting everything that happened in the last 5 seasons. That would be very unproductive and it would bring along the wrath of the angry fans.

In the end they might not even have a choice. According to Richard they all die... so if they don't change anything we are about to get the zombie season next year.


Here's the thing, The Plane crash was horrible, it caused a lot of pain, death and suffering. Had you said Day one, or week one that there is a way to redo everything to make it not happen, Im sure everyone of them would have said yes. Even with the bad things they would have to endure cause they knew that a lot of people died. BUT it being more than three years later, people have moved on with their lives, relationships are formed, experiences are gained and to give all that up is stupid. Time changes things and just like time is valuable in a monatary since, it is also valuable in a morality since. It's not thier going to get to know each other down the road, many of them will exit that plane and never know who was sitting behind them, accross from them or next to them, people they have just spent three years getting to know, love, hate and Cherrish. Time is certainly worth it.

I just can't see that Jack is being selfish. He is trying to do the right thing for everyone, at least in my opinion.

I just can't see that Jack is being selfish. He is trying to do the right thing for everyone, at least in my opinion.

I don't think Jack is currently considering that. "The right thing for everyone"? How would it be the right thing for Jin/Sun? They reconciled on the Island, and they conceived their daughter there. If Jack succeeds and they land in LA, then Ji Yeon...? Won't exist. And their marriage may end as well.

How would it be right for Rose/Bernard? If they land in LA, Rose dies of cancer a few weeks/months later.

What about Claire? If she lands in LA, she has baby Aaron and gives him away.

Kate? Goes straight to prison.

Sawyer? Finds another pretty lady with a dumb husband and ruins another marriage/more lives. Continues to drown in self-loathing.

Ben will die on the Island from a tumor in his back. Locke will be a lonely old man stuck in a wheelchair. Charlie will continue to be a loser heroin-addict. Jack will be a budding alcoholic with insufferable "fix it" and daddy issues, perhaps continuing to stalk his ex-wife. Desmond will never be reunited with Penny.

There are arguments for and against Jack's selfishness/selflessness, but I really don't see how he's acting on behalf of everyone here. He simply hasn't had time to stop and consider every detail of the potential repercussions of preventing the 815 crash.

What about Claire? If she lands in LA, she has baby Aaron and gives him away.


Claire's a bad example, no one knows if she's even alive or not. But you make good points.

I think there's two different topics here. A) Who's best interests does Jack have? and B) Is he being selfish?

Clearly he's not thinking of EVERYONE, but I think he's (hopefully) thinking of the majority (of course if that includes all the people living on the island, than that's probably not the case anymore).

So on the surface if we believe Jack, that he's doing this to save other people, than I still don't think he's being selfish. He's being pretty impulsive, but not selfish.

[quote=IceKat55;2176866]
Desmond will never be reunited with Penny.
quote]

And little Charlie will never be born nor Ji Yeon so Jack would be retroactively killing two children.

From White Rabbit
CHRISTIAN SHEPHARD: Don't choose, Jack, don't decide. You don't want to be a hero, you don't try and save everyone because when you fail … you just don't have what it takes.
Foreshadowing if there ever was one. When Jack's dad said that, it just sounded so... wrong. A terrible thing to say to a kid.

But Jack has pretty much lived up to that summation. He can't stand to fail. When he does fail in some way (even if it's just in his head) he goes into Jack-Overdrive mode to fix things. Jack considers every death, every bad thing that happened since 815 crashed, to be his responsibility. He doesn't have what it takes to just. let. things. go. To just accept that bad things happen and it isn't necessarily anyones fault.


Jack is being selfish. He wants to fix his mistakes. He has to. It's just the way he's wired. It is what we've seen for 4 seasons. Season 5 he's taken a bit of a break. Guess what. Jack's back.

It's what cost him his relationship with Sarah. It's what tore him and Kate apart. He's still breaking Kate's heart with his willingness to throw all of their history away just so he can fix things. He may sound like Locke, but he certainly is not Locke. John would never agree to such a stupid idea of just erasing the past. Hell, John said it himself in The Little Prince

SAWYER: So why'd you turn us around then? Don't you wanna go back there?
LOCKE: Why would I wanna do that?
SAWYER: So you could tell yourself to do things different, save yourself a world of pain.
LOCKE: No, I needed that pain to get to where I am now.



Jack is at an all time low in my opinion. I was really hoping he would come out of that redemption period a new man, but all he has done is adopted this Man of Faith thing for his own selfish purposes. Looking for an excuse to relieve his feelings of guilt. Guilt he put underservingly on himself.

It really makes me worried for the character. :frown:

Well Matthew Fox and Damon and Carlton have said that

Jack has a destiny on the island. He's come back to fullfil it. For all we know resetting time might well be 'that destiny'.

Here's the thing...I am a Jack fan...but who is this man to make the decision to alter everyone else's existence? If he is growing in character, and truely becoming a 'man of faith' than maybe he should start having some. While there might have been pain...there is growth in pain. The main difference that I'm seeing here is that all of the other characters have accepted exactly that.

What if he blows it all up, to change it and they all crash into the ocean anyway? There is no guarantee to the outcome, and why he's trusting (as Sayid tried to explain) Eloise based soley on the fact that she got them back to the island to begin with I will never understand.

She just shot her own son in the back. He knows this. Why is it no one questioning this woman's motives?

i think that part of the problem with jack is that he doesn't know why he's needed on the island. the first bad thing that happens on the island, jack jumps to it thinking that this is what he's here for. i can't blame him for that. locke, christian, ben or richard aren't around to give him an idea of what he is suppose to do. ben should know since he's told him he may never return.

jack is unaware of what the island's true powers are and what he's suppose to do. i don't agree with what he's doing, but i understand his confusion and need to be doing something.
Jack is at an all time low in my opinion. I was really hoping he would come out of that redemption period a new man, but all he has done is adopted this Man of Faith thing for his own selfish purposes. Looking for an excuse to relieve his feelings of guilt. Guilt he put underservingly on himself.

i agree with this. but don't you think it's because he has absolutely no guidance? for a while he had his dead dad stalking him, locke telling him he needed to go back to save his friends and charlie sending him messages via crazy hurley. he finally gets some degree of calm because he's finally going back and then as soon as he's landed on the island, he has no idea WTF he's suppose to do. he's rebuffed by his fellow losties telling him he shouldn't have come back and reduced to doing janitorial duties. YUK! i think the man is desperate to have something to do.

Here's the thing...I am a Jack fan...but who is this man to make the decision to alter everyone else's existence? If he is growing in character, and truely becoming a 'man of faith' than maybe he should start having some. While there might have been pain...there is growth in pain. The main difference that I'm seeing here is that all of the other characters have accepted exactly that.

What if he blows it all up, to change it and they all crash into the ocean anyway? There is no guarantee to the outcome, and why he's trusting (as Sayid tried to explain) Eloise based soley on the fact that she got them back to the island to begin with I will never understand.

She just shot her own son in the back. He knows this. Why is it no one questioning this woman's motives?
In Eloise defense she didn't know that Daniel was her son, but Sayid was right they should question her motives. And shouldn't they be questioning Faraday a little? Not in his motives but his thinking. The reason Daniel wanted to change the future was to save Charlotte. But his desire to that may have colored his reasoning in doing what ever calculations he did to determine they could change the future. Perhaps he was so determined to change the future he convinced himself he could change the future. Perhaps the whole point of the disagreement between Jack and Kate over changing the future is our experiences, positive and negative make us who we are.

Well Matthew Fox and Damon and Carlton have said that

Jack has a destiny on the island. He's come back to fullfil it. For all we know resetting time might well be 'that destiny'.


Actually, I was...


Hoping for a more heroic destiny for him. This really makes him look like a villian and I just alway's pictured him in the Hero's role. That will be sad if it's true, which it looks like it will be.

i think that part of the problem with jack is that he doesn't know why he's needed on the island. the first bad thing that happens on the island, jack jumps to it thinking that this is what he's here for. i can't blame him for that. locke, christian, ben or richard aren't around to give him an idea of what he is suppose to do. ben should know since he's told him he may never return.

jack is unaware of what the island's true powers are and what he's suppose to do. i don't agree with what he's doing, but i understand his confusion and need to be doing something. i agree with this. but don't you think it's because he has absolutely no guidance? for a while he had his dead dad stalking him, locke telling him he needed to go back to save his friends and charlie sending him messages via crazy hurley. he finally gets some degree of calm because he's finally going back and then as soon as he's landed on the island, he has no idea WTF he's suppose to do. he's rebuffed by his fellow losties telling him he shouldn't have come back and reduced to doing janitorial duties. YUK! i think the man is desperate to have something to do.

You know what Max? When I was 10, one day I was bored and played with matches. That dosen't make it right.

He isn't the only one to suffer, to learn, to see and hear weird things on that island... Or even before he got there. Locke's Dad pushed him out of an 8 story window after stealing his kidney...James' Dad shot his Mom and himself...Kate's Dad (oye vay)...Sun's Dad was no winner either. That dosen't give them the right to go setting off hydrogen bombs, and alter everyone else's past and future.

Should we now change the motto to :

Live together...screw you anyway?

Why do people keep saying Ji Yeon would never be born? Sun and Jin kind of made up before boarding the flight - remember how he held up the white flower and it melted her so she couldn't run off to her escape rendezvous? And they had Jin's father telling him to start a new life with her in L.A. away from her father. They might have done just that, one way or another - despite the warning of the guy in the rest room.

they had the test before they got on the plane and he couldn't father a child. that's why it was in dispute of who the father of the baby was. she conceived on the island so she knew it was jin's baby.

After reading this post the only way I could see this decision to be redeeming is if somehow the detonation of the bomb allows for Flight 815 to land in LA but somehow everyone retains their memories of the island. That way everyone would be alive and could continue on with the relationships they had. A few outcomes would be sad, Rose dying be one but for the most part if they retained their memories then it wouldn't be such a bad thing.

I can already see a scene where 815 lands, Kate goes to jail and then a message on a screen informs us (3-5 years later) and we see Kate getting out of jail to an awaiting Sawyer/Jack/Both/Everyone.

Honestly that would be the "it was all a dream" way of ending the series but its one that may actually leave me happy. In the end the island was so special because it was a place lost in space and time and a place that wasn' meant to exist. Our losties existance on the island would be a tangent in time that was never meant to be and that is why so many things occured there that weren't definable by reason.

As for Jack though, yeah he shouldn't blow up the bomb with more consensus from the group. Sure Sayid seems to be on board but he hasn't proven himself to be in the greatest mental state as of late.

Should we now change the motto to :

Live together...screw you anyway?

LBK as a Jack fan all I can say is OUCH!!!! but don't know that I can argue with you much. I think Pythagoras99 has this one right...the decision is soo big and has such far reaching and unknown consequences that Jack is stepping into the area of playing God (a surgeon with a God complex,,,who would of thought) Regardless of whether Jack's motivation is selfish or benificent I think he needs to leave this one the hell alone. I'm hoping ultimately he changes his mind but don't think so.

Also think Max is right...some guidance would be really useful for him at this point. He knows he's supposed to be back on the island and that he's supposed to do something but he's floundering. Where's Christian or Locke or Jacob when you need em?

LBK as a Jack fan all I can say is OUCH!!!! but don't know that I can argue with you much. I think Pythagoras99 has this one right...the decision is soo big and has such far reaching and unknown consequences that Jack is stepping into the area of playing God (a surgeon with a God complex,,,who would of thought) Regardless of whether Jack's motivation is selfish or benificent I think he needs to leave this one the hell alone. I'm hoping ultimately he changes his mind but don't think so.

Also think Max is right...some guidance would be really useful for him at this point. He knows he's supposed to be back on the island and that he's supposed to do something but he's floundering. Where's Christian or Locke or Jacob when you need em?


:71: I know...it's not easy to say when a character that you (we) like is doing something this...how shall I say..".:excl:"

To be fair if any character did what he is about to do...I'd be saying the same words.

;)

Also think Max is right...some guidance would be really useful for him at this point. He knows he's supposed to be back on the island and that he's supposed to do something but he's floundering. Where's Christian or Locke or Jacob when you need em?

THANK YOU, freighter!!!

LBK:harhar1:

I don't think Jack is only thinking of himself. I don't agree with what he's doing, but I can understand how he got to that point. I think it's very telling that he and Sayid are on the same page. Both of them appear to hate what they've become/experienced and are willing to sacrifice their current lives, and to 'kill' everyone on the island to get a reset (assuming it works). They may even go into this final phase assuming it's alright to use deadly force to achieve that goal because they're going to reset anyway and technically the people they hurt/kill won't have died. If that makes sense. They are men with a mission. I don't doubt that they are also thinking it will save lives and some people a lot of grief if they succeed. I agree though, that their reasons are also very personal, and that they're not really considering how their decision to nuke an island will negatively affect everyone else (apart from the obvious death by incineration and radiation). Plus they have no guarantees that this will work. This situation is definitely what one would call a moral dilemma.

Jack's playing god, but he's still thinking he's fixing the problem, not exacerbating it. And I do think it will be pretty darn tragic for him to find out he may have caused the incident. I've criticized him heaps before, and am not thrilled with what he's doing, but it IS consistent for his character. And I am finding him more watchable in deciding this is where his destiny is at. I find it better than him waiting around making sandwiches.

I am now seeing Eloise as a person who also thinks she can save her son. But..she obviously lived through it, and perhaps whatever happens informs her later fatalistic approach concerning Daniel's life. Maybe these upcoming events cause her to form her universe course correcting theories. That trying to change things just makes matters worse. It would explain a lot of her later actions.

I think we have loads of tragic irony ahead of us. It reminds me of when Locke was so sure he had to stop the button being pushed in the S2 finale. The hatch starts to implode and Locke realises he was wrong. I really do think they are showing that Jack is stepping into Locke's shoes and then some.

nice post, zoriah!

Why do people keep saying Ji Yeon would never be born? Sun and Jin kind of made up before boarding the flight - remember how he held up the white flower and it melted her so she couldn't run off to her escape rendezvous? And they had Jin's father telling him to start a new life with her in L.A. away from her father. They might have done just that, one way or another - despite the warning of the guy in the rest room.
People keep saying Ji Yeon would never be born because Jin was infertile before coming to the island, so like Rose's cancer, Locke's spinal injury, and Daniel's memory condition the island healed him. Therefore if the plane doesn't crash Jin might still be infertile and Ji Yeon would never be born.

And presumably Dan's brain would be fried. But then Ellie pushed him to excel in science because she knew he would, because she'd met him in the past and shot him. Arrrgh my head hurts.

Essentially Jack's trying to create a paradox. I don't think the universe will let him.

I'm certain Kate doesn't want to lose her memories of Aaron, the only thing that was ever worthwhile in her life.

After reading this post the only way I could see this decision to be redeeming is if somehow the detonation of the bomb allows for Flight 815 to land in LA but somehow everyone retains their memories of the island. That way everyone would be alive and could continue on with the relationships they had.Yeah, Sayid, Shannon & Nadia can live happily ever after...

Jack is trying to create a paradox, it won't happen. They wouldn't ever simply erase everything and THEN give us the final season...if this was all happening next year I might give it some though, but I think it's pretty obvious that Jack is going to tragically fail and create the incident.

Despite this, I agree with his decision. In his shoes, I would probably do it (if I had the same mental strength he has).

PROS: He's saving the lives of hundreds on oceanic 815. This is including several children (walt obviously wasn't the only one). He is erasing all the pain and torment they've gone through on the island.

CONS: Obviously the "relationships" built will be destroyed...but since when do we judge those as worth more than hundreds of other people's lives? Some of the characters "problems" will not be resolved

But on a scale of worthiness, innocent lives take precedent of a heroin addiction, jail time or paralysis. No children are being "killed" by not being born...with that reasoning you could say that contraceptives are murder. Utilitarian-wise, Jack is making the right choice. Daniel explained (or I assume he did off camera) that he is urging the Dharma's to evacuate. What Jack is doing is selfish (because nothing isn't in some form) in that he is trying to fix his own mistakes and pain associated with them, but in no way is he thinking only of himself.

If the viewers of the show weren't so emotionally attached to the characters who survived the crash than this wouldn't even be a debate...it's simply "Crash a plane" or "Don't crash a plane". Perhaps if this show had focused on the 200 or so dead in the crash we would have more sympathy, but instead we are selfishly focusing on those we feel "connected" to.

If 200 people in Africa were shot down by some guerrilla force right now, we probably wouldn't put much thought into it. We'd probably grieve more over the death of a single person we know. THIS is selfishness and it exists in all of us, which is why so many of us don't "get" why Jack is doing this. It's because he is stronger and less selfish than any of us could ever be.


But it's not going to work....and good riddance too, the show would suck if it did.

Watchin it again, for the umpteenth time, Jack is thinking about it from exactly the same frame of mind as Sawyer. As Jim boards the sub and turns to look at the hills saying "Good Ridance..", that is EXACTLY how Jack feels about the whole past 3 or 4 years of the Island dominating his life.
Let history unfold, without the lsland, Locke, the others, the DI or any of the dozens of deaths he feels accountable for... Jeezus... what would anyone in that position do...
Oh, hang on... The Sainted Kate might go to prison and never have sex with Swayer... Bad Jack!

Here's what I posted on the "Is Kate annoying?" thread. I can't see any way that it would be moral for Jack NOT to attempt to change time by setting off the bomb.



According to Lostpedia, 324 people were on Flight 815, of which 70 originally survived. We're now down to fewer than a dozen (the O5, Locke, Walt, possibly Claire and possibly Rose and Bernard--plus Aaron, of course, who was in utero during the crash). So that's at least 314 dead from Flight 815 alone. (That's in addition to the Danielle's science crew, Henry Gale, Ajira 316, etc., plus the people who died after 1977 in the Incident and the Purge.) I believe the number of Flight 815 dead alone is larger than the current population of both Dharmaville and Hostileville. So even if everyone currently on the island in 1977 dies, successfully setting off the bomb would be "the greater good." And for Kate or anyone else to resist taking such an action because of anything good that's happened to THEM due to the crash is just pathological.

What Jack is doing is selfish (because nothing isn't in some form) in that he is trying to fix his own mistakes and pain associated with them, but in no way is he thinking only of himself.

Jack is only thinking of himself. He is projecting his misery onto everyone else and assuming they would agree with his decision. I don't think the 200+ people who died in the crash are on his mind. He wants to erase his pain. Maybe he has convinced himself that he wants to help everyone but he doesn't. This is a man who very recently wanted to kill himself, his description of his time on the island as misery show he has still some lingering pain. Maybe on some level he wants to detonate the bomb to end all his pain. But, yes he is only thinking of himself. It comes from his need to fix things, whenever he tried to fix something or help someone because of the need within himself( like his marriage to Sarah) it wasn't a genuine to desire to help the other person or persons it was to fill something absent in himself or alleviate some pain he felt. All that having been said, I can understand his decision and I can't say that in his shoes I wouldn't do the same.

On Jack being "selfish" -- I think there is also the view that people can be selfish precisely because they ARE looking out for "everyone."

Telling people what to do, even in the name of positive guidance, is still telling them what to do. Of course, it is also up to other people to resist when someone edges in. That's one thing I do like about this show -- there are strong leaders telling people what they should be doing, but also a lot of other characters that are strong enough to do what they think is best for themselves anyhow.

Jack is only thinking of himself. He is projecting his misery onto everyone else and assuming they would agree with his decision. I don't think the 200+ people who died in the crash are on his mind. He wants to erase his pain. Maybe he has convinced himself that he wants to help everyone but he doesn't. This is a man who very recently wanted to kill himself, his description of his time on the island as misery show he has still some lingering pain. Maybe on some level he wants to detonate the bomb to end all his pain. But, yes he is only thinking of himself. Jack must have SOME thought about all the pain they've ALL gone through.

With your logic no one ever does anything for others, but simply always "convinces themself" that they want to help. Selfish desires power all of our actions, even those that we would consider as "selfless". But if we assume that we are simply deceiving ourselves completely and that "selflessness" is COMPLETELY powered by selfish desires than the topic of this thread is basically null and void.

If selflessness doesn't exist at all and is simply something we fabricate in order for our selfish desires to get what they want then we are ALL "thinking ONLY of ourselves". But as thinking humans we instead decide to weigh a person's morals on their decisions. Admitting that we are all simply decieving ourselves makes morality itself another fabrication.
:undecide:
...and people complain about the time travel being confusing :drowsy:

Jack must have SOME thought about all the pain they've ALL gone through.

With your logic no one ever does anything for others, but simply always "convinces themself" that they want to help. Selfish desires power all of our actions, even those that we would consider as "selfless". But if we assume that we are simply deceiving ourselves completely and that "selflessness" is COMPLETELY powered by selfish desires than the topic of this thread is basically null and void.

If selflessness doesn't exist at all and is simply something we fabricate in order for our selfish desires to get what they want then we are ALL "thinking ONLY of ourselves". But as thinking humans we instead decide to weigh a person's morals on their decisions. Admitting that we are all simply decieving ourselves makes morality itself another fabrication.
:undecide:
...and people complain about the time travel being confusing :drowsy:
Actually I wasn't talking about everyone I was talking about the character. I haven't met everyone so I can't say that selfish desires power all of our actions.But when I do get around to meeting everyone I'll let you know how I feel. Although I'm inclined not to make a blanket statement like selfish desires power all of our actions. Because if you say selfishness desires power all of our actions it depends on your definition of the word selfish.

I'm certain Kate doesn't want to lose her memories of Aaron, the only thing that was ever worthwhile in her life.

Yeah, Sayid, Shannon & Nadia can live happily ever after...

Wow, I hadn't thought about that triangle before:redface: In fact I haven't thought about the Shannon/Sayid relationship in quite awhile, thanks.
100%
Here's what I posted on the "Is Kate annoying?" thread. I can't see any way that it would be moral for Jack NOT to attempt to change time by setting off the bomb.



According to Lostpedia, 324 people were on Flight 815, of which 70 originally survived. We're now down to fewer than a dozen (the O5, Locke, Walt, possibly Claire and possibly Rose and Bernard--plus Aaron, of course, who was in utero during the crash). So that's at least 314 dead from Flight 815 alone. (That's in addition to the Danielle's science crew, Henry Gale, Ajira 316, etc., plus the people who died after 1977 in the Incident and the Purge.) I believe the number of Flight 815 dead alone is larger than the current population of both Dharmaville and Hostileville. So even if everyone currently on the island in 1977 dies, successfully setting off the bomb would be "the greater good." And for Kate or anyone else to resist taking such an action because of anything good that's happened to THEM due to the crash is just pathological.


But what right does he have for making that decision on his own? This will effect everyone involved, not just him. When I said he was being selfish, it was from this point of view, he's only considering his viewpoint, not anyone elses.

Jack is only thinking of himself. He is projecting his misery onto everyone else and assuming they would agree with his decision. I don't think the 200+ people who died in the crash are on his mind. He wants to erase his pain. Maybe he has convinced himself that he wants to help everyone but he doesn't. This is a man who very recently wanted to kill himself, his description of his time on the island as misery show he has still some lingering pain. Maybe on some level he wants to detonate the bomb to end all his pain. But, yes he is only thinking of himself. It comes from his need to fix things, whenever he tried to fix something or help someone because of the need within himself( like his marriage to Sarah) it wasn't a genuine to desire to help the other person or persons it was to fill something absent in himself or alleviate some pain he felt. All that having been said, I can understand his decision and I can't say that in his shoes I wouldn't do the same.

i'm sorry. seriously?

jack was suicidal so he's willing to blow the whole place up and kill everyone.

when i watched the show, i saw jack ready to kill himself because he wanted to return to the island but he couldn't. matthew fox described it on regis and kelly as jack slowly dying. whether he was trying to kill himself or not, jack was dying because he wasn't suppose to leave the island. so as soon as he knew he was going back he seemed to change right away. when he returned, he was waiting to find out what his purpose was. i can't believe that him trying to follow through with what daniel wanted to do, trying to erase all the misery they had gone through on the island, try to bring back the lives of all those lost in the crash and just trying to do the right thing that it has anything to do with him once being suicidal.

i dont' think it's a great idea for jack to blow the place up and go back to the plane landing in LA, but how in the world is doing any of this "helping himself"?

but how in the world is doing any of this "helping himself"?
Because it would erase the mistakes he feels responsible for. Like we have seen him do over and over in previous seasons. Remember his madman drive through the jungle because he didn't believe Claire? Staring down Locke because he wasn't going fast enough? Tearing along, not even giving Kate a chance to track? Same sort of thing. He feels responsible and he needs to set things right.

I'm totally in tune with LBK's take on it. Jack may think he's trying to do the right thing, but I really think it's the same old Jack stuff. He needs to feel righteous about things and that drive isn't letting him stop and think about everyone elses particular perspectives.


The long and short of it is, Jack doesn't have the right to make that decision. So why is he? He's suffered and he wants to erase it.

The island is evil. That's what I think, and anyone who goes to that island is tormented or killed or they end up in eternal service to the island. Jack blowing it up is smart, and since it's Daniel's theory, even better. Like Miles said, Daniel's been right about everything so far, so why not this too?

As for those people who are better off since being on the island, I don't agree. The only two people who will certainly suffer is Locke and Rose, but everyone must meet their end at some time, and trying to prolong life on a mystical island is unnatural.



Jack would still be a successful surgeon with an alcoholic father who died. Yes, he would still be racked with guilt but not the kind of guilt he carries now.
Sawyer murdered one person, destroyed countless lives, and stole money. He's lucky he gets a pass on the other two people he will murder on the island so he should be happy about that one. He's guilty of so many crimes and pain, and he should answer for them. Why should he get happily ever after? He still hasn't even visited his own daughter.
Kate needs to face charges for her crimes too. She IS guilty of them.
Sun and Jin can still work out their problems. It's their choice.
Charlie can still get off drugs. It's his choice.
Boone and Shannon can find common ground. Their choice.
Claire can keep her baby or give it up for adoption to a good family. Her choice. She can also find out about her family. Her mother DOES eventually come out of the coma, and she can ultimately meet her father and then Jack.
Hurley may be rid of the number curse if the island is destroyed, which means he gets millions of dollars to enjoy
Sayid was looking for his long lost love, and we know she's alive, so he will ultimately find her.
Michael and Walt will be able to bond hopefully, as opposed to the horrible way their relationship ended
Ana Lucia was already making up with her mother and was looking forward to seeing her.
Artz would not be an island pizza either
Daniel and Charlotte would also be alive
Ben might still be alive too, but he'd be someone else's problem
Desmond and Penny would be together, I have no doubt
Libby would also be alive
the rest of the 815ers would be alive
Danielle would never get to the island to lose her friends and her life
Alex would never be born on the island and would grow up with loving parents
The Dharma Initiative won't be created and no mass murder or incidents

I think Jack should nuke the island.

Watchin it again, for the umpteenth time, Jack is thinking about it from exactly the same frame of mind as Sawyer. As Jim boards the sub and turns to look at the hills saying "Good Ridance..", that is EXACTLY how Jack feels about the whole past 3 or 4 years of the Island dominating his life.
Let history unfold, without the lsland, Locke, the others, the DI or any of the dozens of deaths he feels accountable for... Jeezus... what would anyone in that position do...
Oh, hang on... The Sainted Kate might go to prison and never have sex with Swayer... Bad Jack!

And if you kill a couple hundred people in the process, so what?

Both of them appear to hate what they've become/experienced and are willing to sacrifice their current lives, and to 'kill' everyone on the island to get a reset (assuming it works). They may even go into this final phase assuming it's alright to use deadly force to achieve that goal because they're going to reset anyway and technically the people they hurt/kill won't have died.

He won't have killed the handful of people who are there from the future; what about the other couple hundred?

Maybe these upcoming events cause her to form her universe course correcting theories. That trying to change things just makes matters worse. It would explain a lot of her later actions.
That makes a lot of sense. I bet you're right. Right now, I have no idea what she's thinking. How does she save her son if he's vaporized in utero by an H-bomb?

I think we have loads of tragic irony ahead of us. It reminds me of when Locke was so sure he had to stop the button being pushed in the S2 finale. The hatch starts to implode and Locke realises he was wrong. I really do think they are showing that Jack is stepping into Locke's shoes and then some.

I agree. Jacks's certainty now is highly reminiscent of Locke's certainty then.

Here's what I posted on the "Is Kate annoying?" thread. I can't see any way that it would be moral for Jack NOT to attempt to change time by setting off the bomb.

According to Lostpedia, 324 people were on Flight 815, of which 70 originally survived. We're now down to fewer than a dozen (the O5, Locke, Walt, possibly Claire and possibly Rose and Bernard--plus Aaron, of course, who was in utero during the crash). So that's at least 314 dead from Flight 815 alone. (That's in addition to the Danielle's science crew, Henry Gale, Ajira 316, etc., plus the people who died after 1977 in the Incident and the Purge.) I believe the number of Flight 815 dead alone is larger than the current population of both Dharmaville and Hostileville. So even if everyone currently on the island in 1977 dies, successfully setting off the bomb would be "the greater good." And for Kate or anyone else to resist taking such an action because of anything good that's happened to THEM due to the crash is just pathological.
You're saying that the moral action is to kill 200 people for the purpose of saving the lives of 300 people. I understand that logic, but it goes against the moral framework of every religion I know of, eastern or western. I hope he's looking forward to the karma of being "a mass murderer, but for a good cause." I hope he's confident in his ability to not only predict the future, but judge the greater good. Historically, most "mass murderers, but for a good cause" have been judged by the rest of us as just "mass murderers."
100%
I think Jack should nuke the island.
Here's a wacky idea. How about wait around till 2004, and call in a bomb threat to flight 815, so the flight is delayed? WOW, you'd save all the people on the plane WITHOUT murdering a couple hundred other people.

Here's a wacky idea. How about wait around till 2004, and call in a bomb threat to flight 815, so the flight is delayed? WOW, you'd save all the people on the plane WITHOUT murdering a couple hundred other people.

If he erases the time line, no one dies. He also saves all the other lives that are about to crash on the island and those people who get murdered, kidnapped, tortured, etc. by God knows how many generations of island worshippers. How about that?

And what of Boone, Shannon, Ana Lucia, Libby, Mr. Eko, Charlie, Michael, Charlotte, Faraday or the many others who have died as a direct result of Flight 815 crashing? I mean I don't know the exact count, but counting all the socks, others, and freighter folks, we're talking at least over 50 people who have died due to flight 815 crashing. Now factor in all the people like Walt who's lives have most certainly been made worse due to flight 815 crashing. Ultimately what Jack is doing as a character is completely justified and the most selfless thing to do given the situation.

Kate, at this point, has really just overall become the most annoying and selfish character in the show.

Michael and Walt will be able to bond hopefully, as opposed to the horrible way their relationship ended

I think Jack should nuke the island.

Walt and Vincent get to live together like they were meant to.

But I can't help but feel that Jack won't be able to stop WHH, and his actions are precisely what causes the Incident to take place. I hope the show is less predictable than that.

I'm not even saying that Jack is 100% correct, but I find it amusing that when Locke does crazy crap, it's perfectly logical to people. For the past four years, people have been griping that Jack won't listen to Locke or Ben even though I have NEVER felt that Jack should listen to either of them because they never explained anything to Jack or anyone else. They love to keep their secrets and expect Jack and company to act on faith. Does Jack even know about Locke's paralysis? Has he ever shared that fact with Jack?

Maybe Daniel's idea is wrong, but what's more amusing is that if this was Locke doing it, it would definitely be the right choice. If it's Jack doing it, it must be wrong. You gotta laugh at this stuff.

Considering that Kate has killed and gotten other people killed, she shouldn't be passing any moral judgments on Jack. Yes, the plan sounds nuts, but they were zapped back in time to 1977. Anything is possible.

Maybe Daniel's idea is wrong, but what's more amusing is that if this was Locke doing it, it would definitely be the right choice. If it's Jack doing it, it must be wrong. You gotta laugh at this stuff.
your completely right. In general most are far too critical of Jack

Jack is doing what he believes is his "destiny". Most likely it wont work, and maybe its not the right choice but he thinks this is WHY he had to come back.

your completely right. In general most are far too critical of Jack

Jack is doing what he believes is his "destiny". Most likely it wont work, and maybe its not the right choice but he thinks this is WHY he had to come back.

Not to mention that everyone and their dog has been telling him to go back. You have Christian telling Locke to go bring them back. You have Ben telling Jack to go back. You have the island haunting him to go back. So yeah, it's not a stretch for Jack to think there's a reason for him to return. So when Daniel TELLS Jack what can be done to prevent death and disaster and will most likely reset the time line so that no one dies on the island, I can see why Jack would be open to it.

Some great posts!

It's such a difficult premise, really. On the one hand, unilaterally making such a huge decision is an overwhelming thought, and doesn't seem right: you can't tamper with other people's lives without even asking them. However, this isn't an ordinary situation. Jack specifically mentioned the deaths that would be reversed to Kate: everyone we lost since we got here would still be alive. You could, of course, argue that he was lying to conceal his own selfishness, but given what we've seen of the character thus far (good and bad), I don't see that as true.

Kate's reservations were also perfectly understandable: some of them have grown, matured during this time. However, we're referring to a handful of people, as opposed to many. As others have stated, so many more people died in the crash and after, so what's the comparison here? Growth for a dozen doesn't surpass the lives of hundreds, certainly.

Also, we can't really place the onus for Locke being paralysed, Rose having cancer on Jack, since he never knew about those facts. Locke never told him, Rose never told him, Jin (or Sun) never told him about their inability to concieve.

So, in Jack's head the downside would be Kate going to prison, mostly. Charlie would be a druggie but guess what, at least he'd be, period. He'd be alive. And again, factors like Des and Penny (while I adore them) aren't big enough in the overall scheme of things to excuse maintaining the status quo.

I think Maxum summed it up brilliantly a few posts ago: if 815 landed, the problems being faced by our Losties (those of a more personal nature at any rate, including Claire and Aaron, Charlie and heroin, Jin and Sun) could have been resolved. They're all adults, and could have fixed such human, life issues for themselves. I don't think counting on the magical island experience to make things better is that mature, personally.

That said, the way Jack is diving head first into this scheme is unsettling, definitely. His savior complex is still going strong; he still thinks it's up to him to do something to fix stuff. He doesn't have much info, either. The perplexed look on his face when Ellie said 'now what?', while being rather amusing, also demonstrated that emphatically.

I liked Sayid working with Jack and as Zoriah said, they're both men of action on a mission. I'm also relieved Sayid's there, because he can secondguess Jack if needed, or at least try and talk sense into him!

Jack isn't being selfish though, IMO. His life wasn't all dandy before 815, or after. It isn't like he'll be going back to a loving wife or a family. He'll be lonely, miserable over Christian's death and wracked with guilt at having been partially responsible as he was in S1 (I wish we could see him happy for once!)

Re: the dead Dharma folks, Daniel advised Chang to evacuate, and might have communicated that info to Jack. So they'd be fine. And I think the more important aspect is that if the plan works, the entire thing would be erased, so they wouldn't die in any case.

However, I hope it doesn't work. I'd love Charlie back, and even Shannon. But to negate everything we've seen? Hells, no! :)

If the bomb blows up in 1977 everyone who was on the island at that point will die, and stay dead (except for our TT folk). But it will supposedly stop the magnetic energy accident, no Swan, no button needing to be pushed, and no causing of said crash. Isn't that Daniel's reasoning?

So yes, Jack seems to be willing to sacrifice those 1977ers who are unlucky enough to still be on the island. There is no evidence that the Others are being warned. There's no evidence to suggest that Jack knows that Chang finally believed Daniel and ordered a general evacuation, or that it's being carried out.

But he is focused on fixing the crash, and fixing the deaths and lives of those people he feels responsible for. Dharma and the Hostiles? Not so much.

If he erases the time line, no one dies. He also saves all the other lives that are about to crash on the island and those people who get murdered, kidnapped, tortured, etc. by God knows how many generations of island worshippers. How about that?
What do you mean he erases the timeline? Daniel was going to detonate the H-Bomb, so there would be no incident, no swan hatch, no flight 815 crash, and therefore Charlotte is alive and well off the island. But there is still an H-bomb explosion in 1977 that kills everyone living on the island at that time. Maybe Jack/Daniel think they're going to suddenly disappear since 815 will not crash there in the future, but the rest of the people on the island, who aren't time travelers, aren't going to suddenly disappear!
100%
Maybe Daniel's idea is wrong, but what's more amusing is that if this was Locke doing it, it would definitely be the right choice. If it's Jack doing it, it must be wrong. You gotta laugh at this stuff.

Considering that Kate has killed and gotten other people killed, she shouldn't be passing any moral judgments on Jack. Yes, the plan sounds nuts, but they were zapped back in time to 1977. Anything is possible.
As soon as Locke tries to blow up an island full of innocent people, I'll be the first to call him a murderer. It's wrong. It's mentally unhinged. It's mass murder. And Kate should go along with it because she killed someone once?

Jack is doing what he believes is his "destiny". Most likely it wont work, and maybe its not the right choice but he thinks this is WHY he had to come back.
So what? Hitler did what he thought was his "destiny", which also involved killing a bunch of people. Doesn't excuse it. I'm just sayin'. Don't flame me. :biggrin:

But he is focused on fixing the crash, and fixing the deaths and lives of those people he feels responsible for. Dharma and the Hostiles? Not so much.
Exactly. That's what's so crazy.

I bet Jack is all ready and set to detonate the bomb when Christian finally appears to him!! That would be awesome!

That would rock, Selene! I think Jack desperately needs some Island style guidance, ala Locke.

Jack was the one who wanted to get everyone off the Island, and basically got pushed into the role of leader.
Apparently, according to some, that was wrong, and he should have immediately defered to the paraplegic, loonatic who spent most of his days hunting boar and deprograming junkies... Occaisionally returning from the woods to spout some heebeejeebee nonsense that any sane person would have dismissed as the ramblings of a mad man...

Jack gets some of the remaining survivors off the Island, and pretty soon regrets it...
LOCKE, BEN,AND ELOISE all tell him he has to go back to "save them". Whuh? Sawyer has already got most of those left behind killed, so when he finally agrees, despite himself, and goes back... Who else is there to save... Well here's a chance to save EVERYBODY...

Dont talk about numbers of people Island vs Plane and greater good etc...
He wants to save the lives of those he felt responible for...

Now he above everyone on the show should know that helping them live again aint necessarily saving them...

I chuckled over your Locke description, Sandman! Right on the mark, in terms of how utterly bizarre he must've seemed to Jack et al in S1.

To be fair, Sawyer getting some LBers killed wasn't any different from the earlier 815 deaths Jack wasn't able to prevent. Sawyer couldn't do much with the time hopping, and the mad Others shooting arrows deal. He did the best he could in that scenario.

I think sometimes we tend to judge these characters (especially the ones who pose as leaders) too harshly. I know the final outcome is what matters, but the person's intent, and the circumstances he had to work with at the time should count too, whether we're talking about Jack, Sawyer or anyone else.

Re Jack and Jughead, one person no matter how well intentioned, can't make decisions for everyone else. That just isn't right, no matter how you cut it. If this works, Jack would be vindicated, but the fact that he 'played god' would still be there.

I love Jack, but it seems he still hasn't gotten over the whole fixing thing. He's rushing headlong into this situation, and despite the fact that there isn't much time for him to do it what with the impending swan accident, I still feel there's way too much risk involved here. I'd love for him to succeed in terms of him as a character, but I'd be disappointed if the show reverts to 'none of this happened' mode. It'd be a letdown. If that paradox even makes sense! :D

i don't think jack's thinking about himself at all. i think that he's thinking about that if there is a chance to erase all the pain everyone went through on the island, who died and who was tortured, that he should do it. he's not thinking about the whole picture and what everyone would want. i don't think he realizes that jin couldn't get sun preggers off the island. no one ever told him that. locke never told him he was paralyzed before he landed on the island, and rose never told him she had cancer. no one shares anything with anyone on that island!

the only thing he's guilty of is making the decision without the input of anyone else.

i don't think he's being selfish. he's giving up his whole relationship with kate. she told him she didn't like the new jack and he said she didn't like the old without her denying it.

Max I'm with you, I don't think that Jack is being selfish but more thoughtless...

I don't think Jack is being selfish either. I admit, though, that I have a real problem putting myself in Jack's place on this one. I can't imagine having that much faith in something that I have no concrete proof is probable or even possible. And, unlike Locke, I'm not even sure Jack is really convinced. I think he believes or, at least, is willing to believe, but he's not sure.

His attitude, I think, is very much the same as Sayid's. If it works, great - if it doesn't, at least you'll put us out of our misery. I'm not enjoying this development for my favourite character. A balance of science and faith is fine - but this particular action requires so much faith based on so little evidence with the consequences potentially being the death of everyone on the island - it's hard to support.

There's one small problem with Jack's and Daniel's plan (a plan which might have been thought up under the influence of Jack Daniels, but I digress;)): whether the bomb goes off or not, 815 is NOT landing in LA. It's been a few years, but both Jack and Kate were there when the pilot of 815 told them that the plane had experienced technical difficulties and he had deviated from the flight plan in the hope of making an emergency landing in Bali. This was at least an hour before the whole Desmond/turbulence/whatever caused the crash. So, even if the bomb goes off and everyone on the Island dies, there's still a good chance 815 will crash in the ocean short of Bali and everyone on it die anyway. How does that change the "good of the many" equation?

And, while we're at it--WHY is the timeline so short? Maybe there's good dramatic reasons, but really, with everything going on, workers dying, spies popping out of the woodwork, isn't it likely the testing at the Swan could be delayed, which would give more people time to get out of range of potential atomic-magnetic blasts?

Jack, Sayid, and Eloise are trying to stop the plane crash AND the incident, each for his/her own individual reasons.
Presumably the incident poses as big a danger to the island and its inhabitants as an h-bomb detonation. I'm not qualified to argue all the points of what a detonation of that genre bomb would have done to an island that size, it's been covered by many Lost bloggers.

Daniel's journal seems to be the primary authoritative (or psuedo-authoritative) source for the danger the incident poses to the island. My impression is it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. At any rate, they're not evacuating the Dharmite women and children because of the bomb, they're evacuating them because of the incident.

So the island isn't the issue.
Rather the issue here is does Jack want to stop the plane crash for selfish reasons? I'm going with the simple answer: anyone who could go back in time and stop a commercial airliner crash has a big decision to make. Either way, there are consequences. Most folks would decide based upon their own moral values, and IMO that's what Jack did. I'd probably do the same, given the chance.

Kate and Sayid have weighed in on opposite sides. Sayid decisively, Kate less so. I tend to think almost everyone on the plane would want to avoid the crash and the island experience, given the opportunity. That includes Claire, Jin, Sun, Charlie, Boone, Shannon, Walt, Michael, Hurley,and all the Tailies. Rose, probably. Locke, never. Certainly the crew and all those that perished in the first couple of days.

Each for his/her own selfish reasons. Nothing wrong with that.

Originally Posted by Hunkyhurley http://forum.thefuselage.com/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?p=2177559#post2177559)
Jack is doing what he believes is his "destiny". Most likely it wont work, and maybe its not the right choice but he thinks this is WHY he had to come back.

So what? Hitler did what he thought was his "destiny", which also involved killing a bunch of people. Doesn't excuse it. I'm just sayin'. Don't flame me. :biggrin:

I agree that its not the right decision, but he wholeheartedly believes in it. In a way you cant blame him- he flashed off a plane and ended up in 1977. Why is he there? He thinks he knows why, and hes taking action.
Dont worry - not gonna flame ya :msn-wink: lol

After watching the episode I don't know if Jack is being selfish, perhaps he is. But he is being incredibly shortsighted. As Sawyer told him when he first arrived back in 1977 he is reacting instead of thinking. He isn't thinking of the consequences if he actually succeeds in changing the future that have been laid out in this thread or others. He isn't thinking of the immediate consequences if he is unsuccessful which is killing hundreds of people on the island. I think what is also fueling his decision is his unconscious desire for suicide, Jack very recently wanted to jump off of a bridge. Those feelings don't just go away.

He isn't thinking of the immediate consequences if he is unsuccessful which is killing hundreds of people on the island.
If they don't detonate the bomb, then "The Incident" will happen. Daniel's journal seems to indicate it's as deadly as the bomb. That's why they're evacuating the island, because the incident's getting ready to happen.
Right? If I'm missing something, someone please set me straight because that's my understanding

If the bomb blows up in 1977 everyone who was on the island at that point will die, and stay dead (except for our TT folk). But it will supposedly stop the magnetic energy accident, no Swan, no button needing to be pushed, and no causing of said crash. Isn't that Daniel's reasoning?

So yes, Jack seems to be willing to sacrifice those 1977ers who are unlucky enough to still be on the island. There is no evidence that the Others are being warned. There's no evidence to suggest that Jack knows that Chang finally believed Daniel and ordered a general evacuation, or that it's being carried out.

But he is focused on fixing the crash, and fixing the deaths and lives of those people he feels responsible for. Dharma and the Hostiles? Not so much.

I agree. I also agree that Faraday and Jack should have consulted with the other losties.

They are giving no consideration to the fact that Jin and Sun, and Desmond and Penny, both gave birth to children as a direct or indirect result of that crash. This goes beyond the obvious consequences for Kate (prison), Locke (continued paralysis) and Sawyer (no redemption on the island), among others.

Also, by changing history, they will be indirectly causing the deaths of god knows how many people over the years that follow. Someone who arrives in LAX on Oceanic 815 causes the death of a family 3 years later in a car crash. Changing history would cause a domino effect that could go on forever.

Other problem's with Faraday's and Jack's logic. Flight 815 was way off course when it flew over the island and was hit by the Swan's energy. It wouldn't have made it to LAX anyway. At best it would have made an emergency landing on Fiji if not crashing into the ocean.

This is where Sawyer's you pretty much reacted and didn't think speech really rings true.

He is reacting to Faraday's plan and not thinking it through.

I tell you what. If he were to ask Jin what he thought of the plan and Jin were to give him his blessing (knowing his child would never be born), I say go for it Jack.

He and Faraday are playing god and they have no right to do that.

I don't think Jack is thinking only of himself or that he's doing the wrong thing necessarily. Jack doesn't belive this is HIS destiny, he believes it's EVERYONE'S destiny. At first, it does sound crazy, but when you think about it.... the major theme running through the narrative of the show from the beggining was the theme of second chances. Do overs. New beginnings. Tabula rasa. So isn't that what Jack is talking about? One more giant do over that maybe allows for an option doesn't result in half of his friends dead and gone? What if he's right and the island is saying...okay, you all have proven you deserve to start over. Let's see if you have the cajones to take me up on my offer in the form of crazy Faraday's far out theory...

I mean, what did they all learn about themselves on the island that they couldn't relearn without all the loss of life? Sun and Jin learned that their love could survive anything. Well, the island didn't create that bond. It was already there. It might have prevailed regardless, and as for the baby, miracle conceptions sometimes do happen without freaky island voo doo. Kate learned that she can stop running. She was about to stop running anyway. and who's to say her trial still wouldn't take a surprising turn in her favor? Sawyer learned that he could let go of his childhood grudge and let himself love a woman without any pretense or con when he let himself build a life with Juliet. Maybe Saywer would find closure anyway someday even without the island, and maybe he Juliet will still meet another way. Etc etc etc...yada yada...Who's to say Jack robs these people of the good things if he takes away the bad with a giant reboot? I mean, when you consider Charlie, Boone, Shannon...all the people who died in the crash...Sayid's Nadia...so many people might still be alive. Course, changing the past is unpredictable, and so Jack has to take a leap of faith and trust that he won't be changing it for the worse. He could be doing the wrong thing, and it could be disastrous....but what if it's not the wrong thing? I mean, the fact that half of them are now trapped in the 70s could be a pretty big neon sign that says this is not the way it is supposed to be. Should he maybe poll everyone to see if they agree to risk it? It would be the ideal way to go about it, for sure. But I don't know if that's feasible given the circumstances with the incident impending and Dharma peeps acting all freaky and the sub leaving and..... I'm not saying there aren't any cons, because there are, but I'm not so quick to discount this choice as a bad one when it does have merits.

If they don't detonate the bomb, then "The Incident" will happen. Daniel's journal seems to indicate it's as deadly as the bomb. That's why they're evacuating the island, because the incident's getting ready to happen.
Right? If I'm missing something, someone please set me straight because that's my understanding
We don't exactly know the nature of "The Incident" whether it is as deadly as the bomb or not we have yet to see. Daniel said the incident was as deadly as the bomb and nobody on the island has ever stretched the truth or lied in any way. Yes, they're evacuating the island, hundreds of people and there isn't a guarantee that they can get everyone off the island in time to avoid the disaster. Detonating an atomic device is something that should give him pause, he should definitely think about it. What if Daniel was lying about the events at the Swan? What if Daniel's information about the Incident is wrong? I'm not saying he is, but there are just too many factors at play that could cause a massive disaster that he should be thinking about.

I just don't think Jack has stopped to think at all. He may have all the good reasoning in the world for trying to change the past and save lives, but the fact is, he's about to mess with a H-Bomb, something I assume he doesn't know too much about. I would have felt a lot safer if it was Daniel mucking around with it.

I think Jack may be thinking about all the deaths he feels responsible for, Boone, Charlie (He'd better feel bloody responsible for Charlie - I blame him), but essentially this is still a selfish decision, because I think it's more to make him feel better - so he doesn't have to live with it.

Whatever, I think he's being stupid

I think that they are going to cause the Incident, not prevent it. It's their meddling which becomes catastrophic and eventually leads to people dying, the pregnancy curse and need to vent the Swan. It will be related to the H-bomb as well. I think Daniel doesn't have all the facts and he's making assumptions as to what really happened in 1977.

Perhaps what Dan knows (of the event as of 2005) is only the 'official' Dharma explanation for what happened.

Jack is trying to create a paradox, it won't happen. They wouldn't ever simply erase everything and THEN give us the final season...if this was all happening next year I might give it some though, but I think it's pretty obvious that Jack is going to tragically fail and create the incident.

Despite this, I agree with his decision. In his shoes, I would probably do it (if I had the same mental strength he has).

PROS: He's saving the lives of hundreds on oceanic 815. This is including several children (walt obviously wasn't the only one). He is erasing all the pain and torment they've gone through on the island.

CONS: Obviously the "relationships" built will be destroyed...but since when do we judge those as worth more than hundreds of other people's lives? Some of the characters "problems" will not be resolved

But on a scale of worthiness, innocent lives take precedent of a heroin addiction, jail time or paralysis. No children are being "killed" by not being born...with that reasoning you could say that contraceptives are murder. Utilitarian-wise, Jack is making the right choice. Daniel explained (or I assume he did off camera) that he is urging the Dharma's to evacuate. What Jack is doing is selfish (because nothing isn't in some form) in that he is trying to fix his own mistakes and pain associated with them, but in no way is he thinking only of himself.

If the viewers of the show weren't so emotionally attached to the characters who survived the crash than this wouldn't even be a debate...it's simply "Crash a plane" or "Don't crash a plane". Perhaps if this show had focused on the 200 or so dead in the crash we would have more sympathy, but instead we are selfishly focusing on those we feel "connected" to.

If 200 people in Africa were shot down by some guerrilla force right now, we probably wouldn't put much thought into it. We'd probably grieve more over the death of a single person we know. THIS is selfishness and it exists in all of us, which is why so many of us don't "get" why Jack is doing this. It's because he is stronger and less selfish than any of us could ever be.


But it's not going to work....and good riddance too, the show would suck if it did.
Well said, I agree with all of this.
100%
But there is still an H-bomb explosion in 1977 that kills everyone living on the island at that time.
100%

.
But they don't expect it to kill everyone, it is the opposite. Daniel actually says to little Charlotte that he expects Chang to evacuate the island incase what he is about to do doesn't work, not because of what he is about to do.

I'm sure whatever they do will kill lots of people and be the incident, proving WHH, but Daniel obviously thought that what he was going to do would stop everyone on the island being killed.

If the bomb blows up in 1977 everyone who was on the island at that point will die, and stay dead (except for our TT folk). But it will supposedly stop the magnetic energy accident, no Swan, no button needing to be pushed, and no causing of said crash. Isn't that Daniel's reasoning?

So yes, Jack seems to be willing to sacrifice those 1977ers who are unlucky enough to still be on the island. There is no evidence that the Others are being warned. There's no evidence to suggest that Jack knows that Chang finally believed Daniel and ordered a general evacuation, or that it's being carried out.

But he is focused on fixing the crash, and fixing the deaths and lives of those people he feels responsible for. Dharma and the Hostiles? Not so much.


Agreed 100%.

Not only that ...but everyone on here (for the most part) that is agreeing with this plan, is running under the assumption that Flight 815 will be landing and people will continue on their merry little way.

What if you're wrong?

What if the plane dosen't land...and it crashes and instead of the fake Frank in the cockpit on the news...we see the real one? All because Jack decided to reset things. The erasing of everyone in Dharma, the Hostiles, and everyone we cared about might die anyway.

This would be the equivelent of someone now saying....I don't like the world, lemme blow it up so that I can create a new future... It's insanity. Sci-Fi or not, he dosen't have the right. He isn't the only one to have felt guilt or pain around the deaths that occured. The choice isn't his alone.

If he dosen't blow it up...and causes the incident (as I believe). It wouldn't surprise me in the least if half the people (including our Losties) get the sickness...

Then won't season 6 be interesting?

Who's still sane and who isn't?

(think Robert)

Way to go, Doc.

Who's to say that by blowing up the h-bomb, that Jack will kill all the people in 1977?

There's this weird presumption that if Jack's plan works, he'll save flight 815 and the hundreds on board, but he'll sacrifice the 1977 dharma and hostiles crew.

Not necessarily, maybe the h-bomb detonates but negates the EM energy, the Dharma people find a way to control it, and then Jack saves the Dharma people AND Flight 815.

Ahhh, it doesn't matter anyway, it's a hypothetical argument. I know it's really interesting to think about the future if Jack resets the timeline, but it's not going to happen.

TPTB wouldn't do that to us, they'd be effectively wiping the slate clean and ruining the previous 101 episodes of LOST.

I think Jack will fail in his plan to reset the timeline, but his actions will indirectly save everyone, and bring the survivors back into the present with Locke and company, to set up the last season.

I'm not even saying that Jack is 100% correct, but I find it amusing that when Locke does crazy crap, it's perfectly logical to people. For the past four years, people have been griping that Jack won't listen to Locke or Ben even though I have NEVER felt that Jack should listen to either of them because they never explained anything to Jack or anyone else. They love to keep their secrets and expect Jack and company to act on faith. Does Jack even know about Locke's paralysis? Has he ever shared that fact with Jack?

Maybe Daniel's idea is wrong, but what's more amusing is that if this was Locke doing it, it would definitely be the right choice. If it's Jack doing it, it must be wrong. You gotta laugh at this stuff.

Considering that Kate has killed and gotten other people killed, she shouldn't be passing any moral judgments on Jack. Yes, the plan sounds nuts, but they were zapped back in time to 1977. Anything is possible.


I am not saying that Jack is wrong simply because it is Jack. He is wrong cuz this is the wrong decision. I do agree with you however about Locke, I feel that many people let him slide too much because he is viewed as a spiritual advisory of sorts "Just gotta have faith!" And since that line of reasoning cannot be explained and you have to Have faith to understand it, most just let it go so that they don't end up looking like Jack who has debated the issue of Faith/Science throughout the series and has gotton no where but frustraited and looking like an ***.

Locke does a TON of crazy things too, Im not saying he isn't wrong. But Jack is wrong here too.

I think that they are going to cause the Incident, not prevent it. It's their meddling which becomes catastrophic and eventually leads to people dying, the pregnancy curse and need to vent the Swan. It will be related to the H-bomb as well. I think Daniel doesn't have all the facts and he's making assumptions as to what really happened in 1977.

Perhaps what Dan knows (of the event as of 2005) is only the 'official' Dharma explanation for what happened.

i see what you mean, but if you think about that what supposedly happened, they are changing it up to prevent the incident because of what dan told jack. he told him that his mother lied, that jack was not suppose to be there. so in the past, jack was not there after dan died. they continued the drilling and the incident occurred. hawking sent jack there on purpose hoping that he'd be there to pick up the pieces after dan was shot, which of course, he was.

so whether he is successful or not, that remains to be seen. but i think this was a plan laid out neatly by ms. hawking herself.;)

I don't think Jack is being selfish either. I admit, though, that I have a real problem putting myself in Jack's place on this one. I can't imagine having that much faith in something that I have no concrete proof is probable or even possible. And, unlike Locke, I'm not even sure Jack is really convinced. I think he believes or, at least, is willing to believe, but he's not sure.

His attitude, I think, is very much the same as Sayid's. If it works, great - if it doesn't, at least you'll put us out of our misery. I'm not enjoying this development for my favourite character. A balance of science and faith is fine - but this particular action requires so much faith based on so little evidence with the consequences potentially being the death of everyone on the island - it's hard to support.
I seem to be agreeing with you quite a bit today. :biggrin:

I think you've laid it out very reasonably. What makes it a bit difficult to judge Jack's motives is the fact that the promised outcome would give him something he would personally like, i.e. to wipe out all the misery of his last three years. If he and Kate were together and happy, if he hadn't sunken into misery, would he still feel the same about this choice? If Sayid had not lost Nadia, become an assassin and lost his soul, would he feel the same about this choice? The two people supporting this position are susceptible to personal bias, as was the originator of the plan. Daniel was desperate to find a way to save Charlotte's life. If we were to remove all those personal motives, would these three men be making the same choice?

I think Jack has found himself in a no win situation. Perhaps he does change events and saves many people from dying but in doing so changes many of the losties fate we have come to know and love. Jack has always been an interesting character because people see him as a control freak but yet many losties look for him to cotrol whatever situation there in. When you're in a power posistion like Jack has been from the start your going to be loved or hated which seems to be the way most fans feel about Jack. Ask yourself what would you do? TOUGH CALL!

I think Jack has found himself in a no win situation. Perhaps he does change events and saves many people from dying but in doing so changes many of the losties fate we have come to know and love. Jack has always been an interesting character because people see him as a control freak but yet many losties look for him to cotrol whatever situation there in. When you're in a power posistion like Jack has been from the start your going to be loved or hated which seems to be the way most fans feel about Jack. Ask yourself what would you do? TOUGH CALL! I would never try to resurrect the dead by exploding a Hydrogen bomb, that's for sure. That feels like hubris to me - too much like playing god. Daniel believed that the drilling would cause the incident, so I'd be concentrating on stopping the drilling. JMO, of course.

Jack is definitely rushing into things, but if by some miracle we were able to 'reverse' some disaster, like Flight 800 or the like, wouldn't people do it?

Jack's thinking of himself? He's thinking like he used to, trying to fix things, but what does he get out of it? A return to a life with a minor obsession over an ungrateful, harpy ex-wife? A marriage with his work? What?

In any case, I hope he does it, because if nothing else, it will be more interesting than the adventures of Dharmaville.

So what? Hitler did what he thought was his "destiny", which also involved killing a bunch of people. Doesn't excuse it. I'm just sayin'. Don't flame me

And Moses talked to burning bushes and believed he could part the red sea and walk all of his people across it to safety. Rumor has it, that it worked out pretty well for him. We can't say yet if Jack is Moses or Hitler, the dude from the Fly whose experiment goes awfully wrong or Willie Wonka with glass elevator that really does end up being able to fly. We just don't know.

I seem to be agreeing with you quite a bit today. :biggrin:

I think you've laid it out very reasonably. What makes it a bit difficult to judge Jack's motives is the fact that the promised outcome would give him something he would personally like, i.e. to wipe out all the misery of his last three years. If he and Kate were together and happy, if he hadn't sunken into misery, would he still feel the same about this choice? If Sayid had not lost Nadia, become an assassin and lost his soul, would he feel the same about this choice? The two people supporting this position are susceptible to personal bias, as was the originator of the plan. Daniel was desperate to find a way to save Charlotte's life. If we were to remove all those personal motives, would these three men be making the same choice?

This is a very good post and point. The three who have been pushing this plan along have very serious issues and some could and should questio thier sanity at this point.

Daniel believed that the drilling would cause the incident, so I'd be concentrating on stopping the drilling. JMO, of course.


but daniel was the one who said that the hatch would not be built; therefore their plane would not crash. he put the idea in jack's head hoping that he would help him.

This is a very good post and point. The three who have been pushing this plan along have very serious issues and some could and should questio thier sanity at this point.
I definitely question their sanity at this point... all three of them. Daniel hasn't been right in the head since Charlotte died. As evidence, there's the behavior we witnessed right after Charlotte's death and the exchange between Sawyer and Miles about whether he's still crazy. He had obviously spent his time in Ann Arbor looking for a way to undo Charlotte's death, and this is what he came up with.

Sayid went from depression after Nadia's death, to assassin for Ben, to humanitarian, only to be hi-jacked and put on Ajira Flight 316 and whooshed back to this cursed island. He thought he killed Ben, only to learn he failed at that. He's at least nihilistic if not overtly suicidal.

Then there's Jack, who came around to believing Locke's assertion that he has some kind of destiny on the island... but he had no idea what it was. Off the island, Jack had sunk to the depths and was suicidal after losing his relationship with Kate and his ability to practice medicine due to his booze and drug addiction. He was overtly suicidal. Daniel tells him two things, the first being that Jack is not even supposed to be on the island and that his mother made a mistake sending him there. The second is his plan to detonate the H-bomb to deal with this supposed EM incident brought about by drilling. Jack is choosing to completely ignore the first thing, i.e. that he's not supposed to be there, but he's all gung ho with the plan to detonate the H-bomb.... which came from the same source as the first thing that he's choosing to ignore.

If the problem is the drilling at the Swan, then why not concentrate his efforts on getting that stopped? That never even occurs to him because he's obsessed with the possibility of erasing the last three years of his life. All his failures, gone, just like magic. Poof! He can go back to being a successful, self-respecting surgeon. That is what he wants. The fact that he'll also get to be a hero and save the passengers on Flight 815 is a bonus that he can use to rationalize the insanity of his choice. He can fool himself that his intentions are good. He doesn't think about any of the other survivors of 815, or the Dharma peeps and Others on the island because he doesn't care about them. If they die, so what? He'll won't remember any of it so he'll never have to feel guilty about it.

Jack and Locke have often been opposites. Where Locke and the group were time jumping all over the place, Locke told Sawyer than he wouldn't warn his past self about anything because going through the pain is how one learns and grows. Jack refuses to do the kind of self-evaluative work that takes. He just wants a short cut to take away the pain. Kate was being the voice of reason in those scenes with Jack and Sayid, but it simply suits both men to ignore her because neither of them really cares if they live or die at this point.

Yeah but the big difference between Locke and Jack, all along, has been that Locke's first loyalty is to the serving the island. Some may say Jack's first loyalty is to himself, but I think more often than not it's been about serving the people he promised to rescue/protect way back in Season 1, even if he didn't always come up with the best way to go about it. Kate is his achilles heel, though, and occasionally his feelings for her get in the way of fufilling his promise to help all these people. I personally think Jack fell apart off island because he was so focused on Kate when the freighter plan went awry he lost track of the greater good and the way it shook down all just felt wrong no matter how much he tried to convince himself otherwise. His last name is Shephard, you know? I see the most recent Jack/Kate scenes as Jack's way of putting his feelings for Kate aside and saying..this time, I'm not going to make that mistake. Kinda ironic that Sawyer has swapped places with Jack, and is all about getting his chick to safety and kissing the island goodbye when last season's finale he was jumping for the greater good. Sawyer's sacrifice last season was easy to understand and digest, but Jack's sacrifice this season is convoluted and murky and thus not widely embraced.

In this eppy you had the parallel between Jack and Locke both putting a shocking plan into motion and the contrast of their motives. Locke was revealing he didn't care about being reunited with his people and his mission was to kill Jacob for some mysterious purpose while Jack was explaining that he believed following through on Daniel's idea was the best way to help all the people who suffered and died. He'd also be helping Jin and Sun who right now are separated and trying to find a way back together, something Locke promised Sun. I also find this contrast very interesting and I think it was definitely purposeful. I wonder if their actions will kind of converge across time and impact each other in some way? Though I may be in the minority, my instinct is to trust Jack. Should be interesting.

Also fascinated by Sayid's reveal that he hoped that they wouldn't be stuck in the 70s anymore once he killed Ben, and his reaction to Kate saving Lil Benji was kind of one of betrayal. I don't think Sayid has definitively proven to be nihilistic and acting irrationally, though it's possible.

I would never try to resurrect the dead by exploding a Hydrogen bomb, that's for sure.

:lol: Dez, I initially read this out-of-context. I had visions of the h-bomb causing all the dead folks on the island to rise and walk... and my immediate reaction was ~ that sounds exactly like something Darlton might try to pull, or make us think they're trying to pull ~
zombie season!
100%
In any case, I hope he does it, because if nothing else, it will be more interesting than the adventures of Dharmaville. Yes, I'm sick of that place and those people. If Jack doesn't nuke it, I will...

Sawyer's sacrifice last season was easy to understand and digest, but Jack's sacrifice this season is convoluted and murky and thus not widely embraced.
Jack isn't making a sacrifice, that's the point. He has nothing to sacrifice. That's what makes his motives suspect. As he sees it, his only way to regain any of what he's lost is to wipe out the past three years. He doesn't lose, personally, he gains. He gets back his successful medical career and his cushy life as a respected surgeon.

Though I may be in the minority, my instinct is to trust Jack. Should be interesting.
I found it amusing that Richard took a dislike to Jack so quickly. Of course, that only made me love Richard more. :biggrin:

Richard seemed extremely worried about the entire thing, and I can't blame him. He doesn't even know these people, and he was told how dangerous the bomb was. From where he stands, this is possibly the worst plan ever.

I still trust Jack's intentions, because I do believe he has looked out for people since S1. He is flawed and messed up, but he isn't evil reincarnated. He has a positive side too, and I think he truly believes he's doing the right thing. I'm not sure he is and I definitely feel he's going about it the wrong way (half cocked, taking decisions on his own about the fate of other people), but I can see what he feels.
This isn't just about him, no more than Kate's opposition is all about her own fate. After seeing these characters over 4 seasons, relegating their motives to such stark black and white boxes seems hasty, JMO.

Jack isn't making a sacrifice, that's the point. He has nothing to sacrifice. That's what makes his motives suspect. As he sees it, his only way to regain any of what he's lost is to wipe out the past three years. He doesn't lose, personally, he gains. He gets back his successful medical career and his cushy life as a respected surgeon.


I found it amusing that Richard took a dislike to Jack so quickly. Of course, that only made me love Richard more. :biggrin:

That IS amusing. For all his immortality and stuff, Richard's track record picking his new BFF/island leader (Widmore, Ben, ReanimatedLocke) is not so hot.

Jack has nothing to sacrifice? Matter of perception and mileage varies big time there. Pre-island Jack was hung up on his ex wife who didn't return his feelings, estranged with his alcoholic father, and not exactly walking on sunshine. For all the crap that went down, he DID find brief but real happiness and love with Kate and Aaron, until the residual guilt and mistrust wrecked it. And he made peace with Christian in his own way before he left if the story about the shoes is any indication. He made his decision, but I don't think those memories are ones that he is parting with lightly. Looking at his face in the scene with Kate when she says not all of it was painful, I'd say he doesn't exactly relish giving up his ties to her.

I found it amusing that Richard took a dislike to Jack so quickly. Of course, that only made me love Richard more. :biggrin:

I think Richard is awesome too, but where was it that he took a dislike to Jack?

He gets back his successful medical career and his cushy life as a respected surgeon.
:biggrin:

Rofl. Cushy? Did you watch any of the S1-2 Jack flashbacks?