I am sure this has been covered before, but after this episode, I am buying into the theory that Locke is now the Monster in some form, and that the Monster is Jacob's enemy. This would explain Richard's doubts/concerns about Locke ("John Locke is going to be trouble"), and Locke's desire to "kill" Jacob.

First, it would appear that the Monster probably uses the dead bodies on the Island in order to reappear. We've already seen this with Yemi and Alex, and possibly Christian as well. The Monster's penchant for possessing the dead could be the reason Amy was freaking out about burying the bodies in "LaFleur":
AMY: We have to bury them.
SAWYER: Bury them? We ain't got time to bury nobody.
AMY: We--we--we have to. The truce. Oh, God. We have to bury them.
HORACE: Okay, LaFleur, how well'd you bury those bodies?
This seems, at first glance, like they were concerned with just hiding the bodies from the Others, but... it makes more sense if the Others were concerned with the dead being *buried* in order to prevent the Monster from getting them. -- This could also be the reason that the Others demanded Paul's body.
However, I know this doesn't explain the open mass grave of the DHARMA Initiative. But... this could possibly be the reason Horace appears to Locke in a dream in "Cabin Fever," as a result of the Monster.

This isn't the only time the interest in those dead on the Island has popped up. In "The Man Behind the Curtain"...
RICHARD: Ben? So you wanna tell me what you're doing in the middle of the jungle all by yourself?
BEN: I left home, and...I'm looking for my Mom.
RICHARD: You think she's out here?
BEN: You wouldn't believe me.
RICHARD: Try me.
BEN: She's dead.
RICHARD: Did she die here, on the Island?
The first thing Richard asks is if Ben's mom died there on the Island. Why? If her corpse was around - then it's possible she could, theoretically, rise again.

Based on this, it seems like Richard/the Others are trying to prevent the Monster from taking possession of bodies. -If they're used to the Monster taking on various forms of their dead loved ones, it could be the reason they don't have a name for "it."

The concern about the Monster's ability to possess people could be the reason for Richard's doubts about Locke.
LOCKE: What's wrong?
RICHARD: Something different about you.
LOCKE: I have a purpose now.
Richard automatically picked up that this Locke isn't the one he knew before. Richard was willing to help the old!Locke, as indicated by this similar exchange in "The Brig":
RICHARD: Ben has been wasting our time with novelties like fertility problems. We're looking for someone to remind us that we're here for more important reasons.
LOCKE: What do you want from me?
RICHARD: I want for you to find your purpose. And to do that, your father has to go, John. And since you're not gonna do it, I'm gonna suggest someone else.
Until "Follow the Leader," Richard has shown nothing but concern for Locke and a desire to put him in power.
RICHARD: Ben, what's going on?
BEN: Where's Ryan?
RICHARD: He's at his tent, are you....
BEN: It's time to get them.
RICHARD: [mumbles] But you said tomorrow.
BEN: Jacob wants it to happen now.
RICHARD: Look, what happened out there--did John see...
BEN: John had an accident. Ryan!
In "Greatest Hits," Richard seems extremely curious about whether Locke saw Jacob. Sure, Richard seems to buy that Ben can talk to Jacob, but it seems as though Richard is seeking *confirmation* about Locke's abilities.

In addition, Richard seemed to be in denial about the possibility that Locke was the Monster:
RICHARD: Well, you--you seemed pretty convinced, especially when I said you were gonna die. I'm certainly glad that didn't have to happen.
LOCKE: Actually, Richard, it did.

Although, I believe Richard's doubts about Locke started earlier, in "Cabin Fever," when Locke chooses the knife instead of the Book of Laws. In Richard's eyes, Locke chose correctly, but he's frustrated because this indicates that Locke is going to be a violent/deadly force rather than a lawful/good one - and as we've seen, if there's one thing Richard cares about, it's making sure his people are safe from harm.

Perhaps I'm off target, but I definitely am beginning to think Locke might be our big bad this season - and possibly next. He was resurrected on the Island (possibly possessed), and Richard - who's been monitoring Locke this whole time - is beginning to catch on to the fact that Locke is different - and dangerous to everyone existence on the Island.

Sounds very plausible. I think this could be correct. I also thought one time about this.

The first thing Richard asks is if Ben's mom died there on the Island. Why? If her corpse was around - then it's possible she could, theoretically, rise again.

Based on this, it seems like Richard/the Others are trying to prevent the Monster from taking possession of bodies. -If they're used to the Monster taking on various forms of their dead loved ones, it could be the reason they don't have a name for "it."

The concern about the Monster's ability to possess people could be the reason for Richard's doubts about Locke.

Good call! I believe that could be the reason that the others burn Colleen's body. I also think there was a hint to the smoke monster/something taking over people body back in season 1 when Charlie had killed Ethan. Charlie made a point of burying him, and Hurley was worry about Ethan returning from the dead and chasing him through the jungle.

Good call! I believe that could be the reason that the others burn Colleen's body. I also think there was a hint to the smoke monster/something taking over people body back in season 1 when Charlie had killed Ethan. Charlie made a point of burying him, and Hurley was worry about Ethan returning from the dead and chasing him through the jungle.

I totally forgot about those two incidents, but you're right.

CHARLIE: Hurley, look, I appreciate the help. You don't have to. I killed Ethan, I can bury him.

HURLEY: Yeah, 'til he rises from the dead.

I think there's definitely more to this Monster-resurrection theory. Whether this makes the Monster a negative force or not, though, I'm not entirely sure.

. . . and wasn't it Locke who said in the Nikki and Paulo episode that nothing stays buried on the island?

. . . and wasn't it Locke who said in the Nikki and Paulo episode that nothing stays buried on the island?

You are correct. Here's part of the transcript:
LOCKE: It looks like you're digging a hole. Every man's entitled to his secrets Paulo, but can I give ya a piece of advice?

PAULO: Please John.

LOCKE: You should put the shovel away and save yourself some trouble.

PAULO: Why is that?

LOCKE: Things don't stay buried on this Island. The beach is eroding. Winter's coming, high tide. Whatever it is you're hiding, make sure you pick a spot that won't wash away. See you back at camp.

Hmm... interesting.

Also, when looking at the relationship between the Monster and Locke, it's always been a bit strange. The first time they met, the Monster didn't attack Locke - and Locke even called it "the eye of the Island". However, later, the Monster attacked Locke and tried to drag him underground...
JACK: That thing was taking you down the hole and you asked me to let you go.

LOCKE: It wasn't going to hurt me.

JACK: No, John, it was going to kill you.

LOCKE: I seriously doubt that.

JACK: Look, I need for you -- I need for you to explain to me what the hell's going on inside your head, John. I need to know why you believe that that thing wasn't going to...

LOCKE: I believe that I was being tested.

JACK: Tested?

LOCKE: Yeah, tested.

JACK: I think...

LOCKE: That's why you and I don't see eye-to-eye sometimes, Jack -- because you're a man of science.

JACK: Yeah, and what does that make you?

LOCKE: Me, well, I'm a man of faith. Do you really think all this is an accident -- that we, a group of strangers survived, many of us with just superficial injuries? Do you think we crashed on this place by coincidence -- especially, this place? We were brought here for a purpose, for a reason, all of us. Each one of us was brought here for a reason.

JACK: Brought here? And who brought us here, John?

LOCKE: The Island. The Island brought us here. This is no ordinary place, you've seen that, I know you have. But the Island chose you, too, Jack. It's destiny.

JACK: Did you talk with Boone about destiny, John?

LOCKE: Boone was a sacrifice that the Island demanded. What happened to him at that plane was a part of a chain of events that led us here -- that led us down a path -- that led you and me to this day, to right now.

JACK: And where does that path end, John?

LOCKE: The path ends at the Hatch. The Hatch, Jack -- all of it -- all of it happened so that we could open the Hatch.

JACK: No, no, we're opening the Hatch so that we can survive.

LOCKE: Survival is all relative, Jack.

but if the monster and Jacob are enemies, then why are there smokey vents all around the temple? They both seem to play some role in protecting and guiding, 'the others."

IF

Jacob and Smokey are enemies

AND

Ben Follows Jaccob

THEN

Why would Ben go to the monster to be judged?

THEREFORE

Jacob and Smokey are on the same team.

Ah you posting that s1 finale dialog is bittersweet. Such brilliant dialog, but it reminds me of how poor it is these days.

Such a huge difference in quality :rolleyes:

While I don't agree with this, as I can't see Jacob and smokie being rivals, I'd like to throw a comedy card onto the table. Remember Dead is Dead? Ben fell through the floor, Locke went to get a rope, then Smokie appeared?

It's the case of Superman. They're never both seen in the same place at once! Just a coincidence that as Locke disappeared, Smokie then appeared.

IF

Jacob and Smokey are enemies

AND

Ben Follows Jaccob

THEN

Why would Ben go to the monster to be judged?

THEREFORE

Jacob and Smokey are on the same team.

I don't think Ben ever followed Jacob but instead invoked the name of Jacob to control the Others. I mean Ben just said Jacob told him to do this and that which made him appear "special". Smoke and mirrors! lol

Why would Ben go to the monster to be judged?
I never really got the impression that that was what Ben wanted to do. I know he said that to John, but... Ben lies.

Plus if you disect how Dead is Dead played out, Ben never did anything overtly that would put himself in front of smokey. In fact it wasn't until John led him to that hole in the tunnels that Ben appeared worried about being judged. Remember his sudden request to Sun to tell Desmond he was sorry? Why wait until then? If he really thought smokey was about to come charging out of the jungle, wouldn't he want to get that request out then?

Ben was ready to march off to the temple before John stopped him. What's supposed to be in the temple? Another group of Others. We've been told that twice now.

And here's where I go really crackpot and lose everybody:
Ben hollering, "I'll be outside" down that drain pipe was never shown to produce smokey. He may have been phoning in to the temple. We didn't see what he did to get smokey to go after the mercs. And if you notice how that drain hole scene was shot, there is a whole side of that room that wasn't shown. Saving on budget? Or is there a big red button labeled Smokey Attack over there?


The whole friggen show is slight of hand. It's almost rediculous how hard they try to hide things and give themselves OMG cliffhanger moment opportunities while at the same time trying to keep things honest for the inevitable rewatches people will do once they know the truth of things.


Anyway, now that I've established myself as a crackpot... Moose Wizard, I am down with your theory! :biggrin:

I never really got the impression that that was what Ben wanted to do. I know he said that to John, but... Ben lies.

Plus if you disect how Dead is Dead played out, Ben never did anything overtly that would put himself in front of smokey. In fact it wasn't until John led him to that hole in the tunnels that Ben appeared worried about being judged. Remember his sudden request to Sun to tell Desmond he was sorry? Why wait until then? If he really thought smokey was about to come charging out of the jungle, wouldn't he want to get that request out then?

Ben was ready to march off to the temple before John stopped him. What's supposed to be in the temple? Another group of Others. We've been told that twice now.

And here's where I go really crackpot and lose everybody:
Ben hollering, "I'll be outside" down that drain pipe was never shown to produce smokey. He may have been phoning in to the temple. We didn't see what he did to get smokey to go after the mercs. And if you notice how that drain hole scene was shot, there is a whole side of that room that wasn't shown. Saving on budget? Or is there a big red button labeled Smokey Attack over there?


The whole friggen show is slight of hand. It's almost rediculous how hard they try to hide things and give themselves OMG cliffhanger moment opportunities while at the same time trying to keep things honest for the inevitable rewatches people will do once they know the truth of things.


Anyway, now that I've established myself as a crackpot... Moose Wizard, I am down with your theory! :biggrin:

There was no witness to Ben's summoning smokey... "I'll be outside"... therefore no reason to lie, nobody was being decieved.

If Ben was lying about contacting Smokey then he would have walked into the room, shut the door, sat around for a few minuets and left.

There was no witness to Ben's summoning smokey... "I'll be outside"... therefore no reason to lie, nobody was being decieved.

If Ben was lying about contacting Smokey then he would have walked into the room, shut the door, sat around for a few minuets and left.
Hehe what? I'm not saying he was lying while he was in a room by himself. :laughing:

His "I'll be outside" is just that. He went outside. Ben didn't lie while he was by himself talking to a drain hole! If only the drain hole could get Ben to do an hour long monologue!
:biglaugh:

Sorry. This is just sounding really silly. Anyway, what I meant was that we were lead to believe that Ben went into his secret closet to summon smokey because he wanted to be judged. But he never said that. He didn't pause by the bookshelf like Vanna White and say, "I Will Now Summon the Nameless Smokeyness"! It actually went like this

SUN: How do we find Jin?
LOCKE: Ben has something to do first. Isn't that right, Ben?
BEN: Yes, John. That's right.
LOCKE: Better get to it then.

And then Ben got to drain hole unplugging and so forth.

We all ASSUME that Ben was summoning smokey because
- It's the same room he went into when smokey went after the mercs (room can't have more than one function?)
- Ben said earlier that he wanted to be judged (lie)
- Ben said later that what was coming out of the jungle he had no control over (misdirection)

There was no lie while he was in the room. But the whole setup to make us believe that was what he was doing was quite possibly intentional misdirection. And therefore possibly supports my theory that Ben was lying about wanting to be judged.

Hey! At least I admitted to being a crackpot!
;)

Yet it's the same way he summoned Sumkey in season 4.

Could be a way to communicate with the Temple others, nice idea.

On a side note, could the Temple others be priests?

I've subscribed to this belief since "dead is dead".

Ben tells Sun "something is going to come crashing out of those bushes and you may want to be inside" (or something of this ilk) and what comes crashing out is John Locke.

We have been told over and over that "dead is dead" yet John Locke has "died".

He doesn't seem to have any of the uncertainties or fears of the old John Locke.

Not only does Ben summon smokey but John crashes out of the bushes. He accurately knows where the temple (someplace he had never been is) and that they must go there.

Ben then tries to pass by the declivity (where smokey goes) and John corrects him (once again, how would John Know?)

Then the whole "clark kent/superman" thing takes place.

To suggest that Jacob and Smokey are "on the same team" is to surmise that the ring of ash around Jacob's cabin has nothing to do with Jacob.

That we know that smokey is around the cabin and has the ability to impersonate dead bodies (Yemi, christian etc.)

We know that he is leading Sun (and by proxy Locke) to do things "for the island".

What we don't know... is who is Jacob, what is jacob, when is jacob, how is jacob... and the specifics of him being contained.

I'm believing that John Locke isn't John Locke because "dead is dead". And if its proven otherwise... than things like smokey blowing up the turbine can be true. Smokey being Nanobots can be true. Lost is purgatory can be true etc.

It's always possible that Smokey and Jacob and Richard (and whoever) are on the same team, but aren't always agreeable with each other. Sayid, Kate, and Jack are basically on the same team, but are actually separate most of the time, for one reason or another. They could be like siblings who have a common goal, but have different ways of coming to that goal. Or maybe like siblings who started out with the same goal but have now deviated over however many centuries the Island has been around, to different goals.

About John Locke and death... just some ends i've tied together.

Christian crashes on 815
John crashes on 316

As we know from the mobisode, Christian was alive again on the island before Jack even woke up, i don't think there was time for The Others or Smokey to take christian's body to the temple and back for ressurection (i.e Ben) so it seems resurrection was almost instantaneous.

But as for John Locke... He was not seen immediately after 316 Crashed, even though his coffin was on the plane, 316 Crashed during the day, John was not seen until that night by Illana, on the Beach in the dark (the mango scene was the next day) So where was John in the mean time? If his resurrection was instantaneous then where was he for those hours, and why did nobody see him walk off the plane after it crashed on the island?

The only other Dead/Alive person we have seen on the island is Yemi, but as confirmed by Darlton, he was a manifestation of the smoke monster, unlike Christian and John... The connection i think, is that Christian and John had both been to the island before they died, and, Like John, i believe Christian was "Scanned" by smokey at some point.

How this all pieces together i don't know, we need the constant in this equation, what do all these things have in common?

But as for John Locke... He was not seen immediately after 316 Crashed, even though his coffin was on the plane, 316 Crashed during the day, John was not seen until that night by Illana, on the Beach in the dark (the mango scene was the next day) So where was John in the mean time? If his resurrection was instantaneous then where was he for those hours, and why did nobody see him walk off the plane after it crashed on the island

Maybe Locke was off speaking to the island? Or maybe his resurrection was more important than Christians, and it involved more. Who knows, maybe he was just dealing with coming back to life, and it took him a long time to come to terms with it before he could join the other survivors? Or he was being schooled in the wicked ways of being zombie!Locke by zombie!Christian?

Maybe Locke was off speaking to the island? Or maybe his resurrection was more important than Christians, and it involved more. Who knows, maybe he was just dealing with coming back to life, and it took him a long time to come to terms with it before he could join the other survivors? Or he was being schooled in the wicked ways of being zombie!Locke by zombie!Christian?

I think he and Christian may have both flashed on to the island.

Also, another reason why John and Christian were resurrected... They're both Shephards. Cooper was a con man, what if his real name is Anthony Shephard? That would make John and Jack cousins, tie both of them in with the Jacob/John/Jack naming scheme, explain their affinity to the island too.

I think the whole notion of Locke being something other than John Locke, call it smoke monster, Jacob, the island whatever - is absurd.

We've got a whole season left next year. How could the show realistically continue with locke being the smoke monster? Also that would mean his resurrection would literally mean nothing, it's effect would be devalued due to it being all smoke and mirrors.

I think when addressing Ben, you can introduce smoke and mirrors, deceitfulness, lies, what you see is not necessarily what you get. But Locke is different, he's not that person.

One thing on the short list of the final season, is redemption for all of the main characters arcs, and how could Locke possibly finish his arc and let go of everything if he's a dead old man in a coffin being re-animated by a smoke monster.

Or Locke's mother could be kin to Jack's mother. They're both crazy (Jack's to a slightly lesser extent).

In recent episodes, the writers have made a point to never show Locke and Smokey in the same scene, right? Red herring? or something more?

I think the whole notion of Locke being something other than John Locke, call it smoke monster, Jacob, the island whatever - is absurd.

We've got a whole season left next year. How could the show realistically continue with locke being the smoke monster? Also that would mean his resurrection would literally mean nothing, it's effect would be devalued due to it being all smoke and mirrors.


I've had a slight suspicion that Locke may have been reanimated as the smoke monster for a while now. However, I just finished rewatching S3's "The Man Behind the Curtain," and let me say that I am almost sure that it's the same Locke we've always seen. Locke is as confident as we see him now, especially when he demands to be brought to Jacob (sound familiar?) by Ben, so much so that he knocks Patchy out.

I've had a slight suspicion that Locke may have been reanimated as the smoke monster for a while now. However, I just finished rewatching S3's "The Man Behind the Curtain," and let me say that I am almost sure that it's the same Locke we've always seen. Locke is as confident as we see him now, especially when he demands to be brought to Jacob (sound familiar?) by Ben, so much so that he knocks Patchy out.

Yeah, it's pretty much is the same Locke...I'm just not buying this "I have a purpose now." stuff. Granted, I've never been a Locke fan (though TO is amazing), but "confidence" is not the word I would use.

I just went back and read over this post after the finale. I think a lot of the original points are still on to something - especially the whole "bury the bodies" thing, but now I am not so sure if Smokey and Esau/Jacob's enemy are one in the same; but there is an interesting connection going on nonetheless.

I just went back and read over this post after the finale. I think a lot of the original points are still on to something - especially the whole "bury the bodies" thing, but now I am not so sure if Smokey and Esau/Jacob's enemy are one in the same; but there is an interesting connection going on nonetheless.

I've been bouncing back and forth on this one. I thought Smokey and Esau weren't one in the same...then i thought they were, etc. etc. Then a thought hit me. In S1 when Locke first saw it, he said it was the most beautiful thing he's ever seen. Then later he described it to Eko as a bright white light, to which Eko replied "that is not what i saw". So i'm wondering...are there two "smokies"? A white one (Jacob) and a black one (Esau)?


Thoughts?

I've been bouncing back and forth on this one. I thought Smokey and Esau weren't one in the same...then i thought they were, etc. etc. Then a thought hit me. In S1 when Locke first saw it, he said it was the most beautiful thing he's ever seen. Then later he described it to Eko as a bright white light, to which Eko replied "that is not what i saw". So i'm wondering...are there two "smokies"? A white one (Jacob) and a black one (Esau)?


Thoughts?

This one got me thinking too. If there are two smokeys that would be an excellent twist of the plot.