All of them were meant to be on 815. Were meant to be on that island.

He touched Kate's nose, Jack's finger, Sun and Jin's shoulders, Locke's shoulder (brought him back to life!), Sawyer's hand, Sayid' something (don't remember). Anyone else?

Note that we saw Juliet as a kid, but no Jacob in that FB.

ETA: Hurley's arm.

We didn't see him with Miles in the past. For the record, we also didn't get to see him with CLAIRE. Or Rose and Bernard. And the others who have died, of course...

Maybe thats where his list comes into play ?

Ya know, Jacob touched each one of them literally and figuratively!

They are all like his children! Just like Jacob's children eventually became the leaders of the tribes of Israel...the promised land! It's like he passed on his blessing just like biblical Jacob did to his children.
And now "they're coming"(our Losties) back to fight on Jacob's side...the side of good and light!

Good catch! I wonder what the difference is between being destined to be on the plane vs. being on his list.

That's a great catch.

I was about to post a thread about how interesting it was that he used the language of blessing several times.... at the Kwon marriage, and w/ Hurley, off the top of my head.

A big part of the biblical narrative of Jacob is the blessing of his children... it takes up like the last 10 chapters of Genesis.

And one of the components of a blessing was the father placing his hands on the children, and invoking the blessing.

I noticed that too about the flashbacks he appeared in. Seems like Jacob was out putting the final "touches" (yea that was bad) on his Island A-Team.

Jacob goads Ben into knifing him, which makes me think that Jacob has a plan in place to out fox Unnamed Beach Companion in the opener. Or else why all the off island visits?

And he did bring Locke back to life. Which at the time I thought meant Locke was revived twice, but apparently this New Locke is just a puppet for Jacob's Beach Buddy. Makes me think CS is/was as well. Locke's job, good Locke's job, seemed to really be to get the other members of Jacob's A-Team back to the island, porbably for whatever final battle is going to take place.

Sis and I noticed that too, that he touched each of them. With Jack we had to rewind to see, but he does touch his hand when handing over the Apollo bar.

With Locke, it's as if he instantly healed him - as if he almost came back to life.

A common thread (note the loom) was that he spoke of free will. He made it very clear to some that it was their choice, their free will.

I continue though, to not take at face value what we are shown. Jacob certainly is presented as a good, almost biblical figure. But is he really the good side?

I noticed that too and the lag just made sure my post didn't get posted.

Looked like Jacob was assembling his Island A-Team. Makes me think that Jacob has a plan already in place to out fox his unnamed Beach Buddy. All the off island visits, specifically touching each Lostie.

Bringing Locke back to life. Locke's purpose, good locke's purpose, may have indeed been to make sure Jacob's A-team returned to the island before the final battle. I wonder if Jacob's touch means Sayid isn't going to die.

Maybe thats where his list comes into play ?

Jack and Kate were not on Jacob's list, I think it's for another reason, although right now I have no idea what that would be.
100%
The thing I found odd was that when Jacob visited Kate, he says "You're not going to steal anymore, are you?" and then "Be good Katie". And we know for a fact that Kate wasn't good. Kate didn't seem to follow Jacob's directives.

he didn't touch Hurley

he also gave him a choice

That's a great catch.

I was about to post a thread about how interesting it was that he used the language of blessing several times.... at the Kwon marriage, and w/ Hurley, off the top of my head.

A big part of the biblical narrative of Jacob is the blessing of his children... it takes up like the last 10 chapters of Genesis.

And one of the components of a blessing was the father placing his hands on the children, and invoking the blessing.
I have always thought Lost's Jacob was to be much like the biblical patriarch,Jacob but I love how it seemed as if he really gave them each his blessing as his "heirs" to the Island.

Ya know, Jacob touched each one of them literally and figuratively!

They are all like his children! Just like Jacob's children eventually became the leaders of the tribes of Israel...the promised land! It's like he passed on his blessing just like biblical Jacob did to his children.
And now "they're coming"(our Losties) back to fight on Jacob's side...the side of good and light!

That, right there, is awesome! I'm glad they bring us back to the biblical reference speculated on back when we first heard of this mystical dude. I really like the guy they cast as Jacob. Not what I expected, but it worked perfectly; he was so calm and had that wisdom in his eyes that I would expect of Jacob. Fitting, I think (even though I woulda expected an older man). I wonder if the ghostly shape we saw in the cabin actually was just Christian's shadow. Sure didnt look like Jacob.

I guess that was the Black Rock in the distance, eh? Interesting then, that Jacob wasn't from the ship...but had summoned it or something.

I guess Ilana will be a regular next year and we'll get her back story. She seems to be the only one who already knew Jacob.

Poor Ben flunked the test, believing Smokey-as-Alex, all anger and no love, while ignoring Jacob's message of love and free will. (The Biblical Jacob--who died in Egypt BTW--loved Benjamin the most of all.)

Cardie

I could have sworn I say him touch Hurley in the cab. Nothing as overt as the others, but still a touch. I'll have to wait for the re-watch.

But did he need to touch Hurley? Everyone else he touched (other than Sayid) he touched before they had gone to the Island. maybe that had something to do with it. Plus, Hurley was given something from Jacob. Which makes me wonder if Hurley has even looked in the guitar case.

Poor Ben flunked the test, believing Smokey-as-Alex, all anger and no love, while ignoring Jacob's message of love and free will.

Yes, that was for me the most tense, intense, poignant, significant moment in the episode.
At first, I really thought that Ben might understand what Jacob was saying. Ben *always* had free will when he chose to follow Jacob's (and fake Alex's) orders. Everything Ben did was by his own choice, he could have at any time opted out.

Ben, not Jacob, is responsible for his misery during all those years he was leader. Then Ben had exactly the same choice about following fake-Locke's instructions. I was all primed for Ben's redemption, that was the moment, the opportunity. But Ben just didn't get it. How tragic.

I guess Ilana will be a regular next year and we'll get her back story. She seems to be the only one who already knew Jacob.

Poor Ben flunked the test, believing Smokey-as-Alex, all anger and no love, while ignoring Jacob's message of love and free will. (The Biblical Jacob--who died in Egypt BTW--loved Benjamin the most of all.)

Cardie

Yeah, we clearly need Ilana's back story. What with her knowing Jacob, and her serious injury (and no other visitors).
Good point about Egypt and Benjamin.

But did he need to touch Hurley? Everyone else he touched (other than Sayid) he touched before they had gone to the Island. maybe that had something to do with it. Plus, Hurley was given something from Jacob. Which makes me wonder if Hurley has even looked in the guitar case.

He did touch Hurley. He reached over the guitar case and put his hand on Hurley's arm just slightly.

I think that Hurley has opened the case. Whatever is in there is what convinced in to go back to the island. He wouldn't be lugging it around still otherwise.

Actually, Jacob loved Joseph most of all, with Benjamin a close second because they both had the same mother.

It is confusing as to what Jacob's "blessing" is.

He actually caused Nadia to be killed by that van by stopping Sayid. Had he not done that, then they both would have already been across the street. So was he saving Sayid or killing Nadia to free up Sayid to return to the island?

His interaction with Jack was most insignificant - just "Is this your candy bar?"

He helps Sawyer write his letter by giving him a pen, setting him on track to land on the island.

Very confusing stuff.

I am 90% sure that Jacob did touch each of the Losties in their relative flashback. Except Sayid and Hurley were both between crashes, the rest pre-first crash, and Miles and Juliet never met him. Significant?

Jacob touch Sayid and Hurley after they had already been on the island. Sayid only wound up on flight 815 because he was going to buried his friend, and Hurley was almost prevent from getting on the plane. So far it seem like Miles and Juliet never met Jacob, could that be significant?

Yeah, we clearly need Ilana's back story. What with her knowing Jacob, and her serious injury (and no other visitors).
Good point about Egypt and Benjamin.



He did touch Hurley. He reached over the guitar case and put his hand on Hurley's arm just slightly.

I think that Hurley has opened the case. Whatever is in there is what convinced in to go back to the island. He wouldn't be lugging it around still otherwise.

Thanks for clarifying LL, I wasn't sure if he had touched Hurley or not.

I'm not sure that Hurley looked in the guitar case. I think he could have been convinced to go back to the Island just by his conversation with Jacob, and possibly the "touch" by Jacob helped him. Hurley I think would have carried the case with him on faith.

Hurley could also have been visited by other "visitors" to help guide him too, but I think Jacob's convo was enough.

He never met Daniel Faraday, or Charlotte. The ones he touched/met were all people who were born off island. Miles is an island baby. That leaves Juliet, who is the odd girl out in this case. Perhaps she is special like Desmond (Who also wasn't touched) and is a variable.

My friend told me Jacob had touched all these people and I didn't even notice it. I seems like it must be significant somehow.

That, right there, is awesome! I'm glad they bring us back to the biblical reference speculated on back when we first heard of this mystical dude. I really like the guy they cast as Jacob. Not what I expected, but it worked perfectly; he was so calm and had that wisdom in his eyes that I would expect of Jacob. Fitting, I think (even though I woulda expected an older man). I wonder if the ghostly shape we saw in the cabin actually was just Christian's shadow. Sure didnt look like Jacob.

I guess that was the Black Rock in the distance, eh? Interesting then, that Jacob wasn't from the ship...but had summoned it or something.

I also love the actor they chose as Jacob.I think that maybe the shadow we saw wasn't Jacob but the other dude( the guy in black aka Smokey appearing as Christian).

And yep, I thought it was the Black Rock! Maybe that is where Richard comes from though!
100%
Yes, that was for me the most tense, intense, poignant, significant moment in the episode.
At first, I really thought that Ben might understand what Jacob was saying. Ben *always* had free will when he chose to follow Jacob's (and fake Alex's) orders. Everything Ben did was by his own choice, he could have at any time opted out.

Ben, not Jacob, is responsible for his misery during all those years he was leader. Then Ben had exactly the same choice about following fake-Locke's instructions. I was all primed for Ben's redemption, that was the moment, the opportunity. But Ben just didn't get it. How tragic.
Nicely stated! Also, Jacob is actually responsible for giving Ben life in a way.....he healed the injured young Ben in the temple.

While watching, I rewound on Hurley to make sure they touched. Jacob did touch him, Hurley's hair moved as Jacob pulled his hand away.

At first I noticed he gave the people OBJECTS. First Kate the lunch box, then Sawyer the pen. Then there was a no object (as I remember it), maybe Jin and Sun or Sayid (the map is iffy), so I followed the touching, which they made sure to show. Then Jack the Apollo candy bar, and Hurley and the guitar case. Locke was just a touch - of life.

Actually, Jacob loved Joseph most of all, with Benjamin a close second because they both had the same mother.

It is confusing as to what Jacob's "blessing" is.

He actually caused Nadia to be killed by that van by stopping Sayid. Had he not done that, then they both would have already been across the street. So was he saving Sayid or killing Nadia to free up Sayid to return to the island?

His interaction with Jack was most insignificant - just "Is this your candy bar?"

He helps Sawyer write his letter by giving him a pen, setting him on track to land on the island.

Very confusing stuff.

Then Jack said something like "yeah, it was stuck" to which Jacob replied,"sometimes it just needs a little push". Maybe Jacob was giving them all a little push? Of course, Christian and Jack's interaction right before Jacob appeared was about CS giving his son a little push in the OR. Either way, that was a very significant moment!

I guess Ilana will be a regular next year and we'll get her back story. She seems to be the only one who already knew Jacob.

Poor Ben flunked the test, believing Smokey-as-Alex, all anger and no love, while ignoring Jacob's message of love and free will. (The Biblical Jacob--who died in Egypt BTW--loved Benjamin the most of all.)

Cardie

Ageed. Poor Ben had it all spelled out for him by Jacob and totally missed the point. He'd been primed to focus on his grievances by Fake Locke in the earlier scene.

....

It is confusing as to what Jacob's "blessing" is.

He actually caused Nadia to be killed by that van by stopping Sayid. Had he not done that, then they both would have already been across the street. So was he saving Sayid or killing Nadia to free up Sayid to return to the island?

His interaction with Jack was most insignificant - just "Is this your candy bar?"

He helps Sawyer write his letter by giving him a pen, setting him on track to land on the island.

Very confusing stuff.

I'm not even sure it's the specific nature of his intervention so much as his blessing and his touch that is significant in these flashbacks.

I thought maybe Jacob saved Sayid; whoever did the hit and run on Nadia intended to hit Sayid or both of them, I thought Jacob detained Sayid in order to save his life because Sayid was suppose to be on the Island, too.

Jacob's touch also preceded fairly significant choices that would be coming up for them to exercise free will. Most of them didn't do too well. Kate did go back to crime, although much later. Sayid's reaction to Nadia's death was to become Ben's assassin. Jack did not get over his daddy issues. James did not take his uncle's advice to move on from his anger at the real Sawyer.

Sun and Jin did battle through and preserve their marriage, and Hurley did decide to get on Ajira 316.

Cardie

I like where this is going however, if his touched saved their lives.. why is Locke (good Locke) still a corpse.. in a box.

Jacob also touched Ben. After Ben stabbed Jacob the second time, Jacob went forward and touched Ben arm.

Jacob also touched Ben. After Ben stabbed Jacob the second time, Jacob went forward and touched Ben arm.

Great catch!

I thought the signifigance of the guitar was that it was Charlies. They needed to bring back as much of the people as possible, Charlies guitar would be to replace Charlie, and would also help convince Hurley to get on the plane.

Genisis 49:27 Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; in the morning he devours the prey, in the evening he divides the plunder.

Benjamin's desendents were noted for their savagery. Those of you who remember Sunday School should remember that King Saul, who tried to kill David 14 times in 7 years, came from the tribe of Benjamin.

Sometimes blessings are actually curses.

He never met Daniel Faraday, or Charlotte. The ones he touched/met were all people who were born off island. Miles is an island baby. That leaves Juliet, who is the odd girl out in this case. Perhaps she is special like Desmond (Who also wasn't touched) and is a variable.

Good catch! the people who he touch was all people who was born off the island. Which would explain why Jacob had to back and touch Hurley, and Sayid . Those was the two people who wasn't going to be on the flight originally. Juliet could be like Desmond. I also wonder about Rose and Bernard ?

For certain significant, but to what end?

I caught the touches and felt it important, I did not recognize until this post that Sayid and Hurley were touched post-crash.

I find it interesting that he touched Locke, now Locke seems to be a possessed betrayer type.

I really don't know. My next big question is who is this other guy that Jacob was with on the beach.

The touches are absolutely meaningful in some way, or they wouldn't have happened.
Don't know what they mean though of course!! But they're important!

I like where this is going however, if his touched saved their lives.. why is Locke (good Locke) still a corpse.. in a box.

Maybe because Dead is Dead. We have been repeatedly told that D is D. I have not been convinced that this is the case. However, Jacob revived (rather than resurrected) Locke once (when Locke fell out of the building) - however, when Ben killed Locke, well Dead is Dead and this might prove it. The reason I waffle about whether this axiom holds true is because of the the cases of Christian and Claire who seem to be dead but are in some kind of liminal state. Well, I suspect much of S6 will be liminal....

He never met Daniel Faraday, or Charlotte.

That we are aware of. Before this episode we did not know he met any of these people.

Could they be the people who survive this explosion?

Also, we don't know WHEN Jacob touched them? Meaning, can Jacob possible travel through time? And once he found them on the island, he went back in time to various point to "mark" them?
100%

In Doc Jensen's video, Damon says the episode is "very touching" and not necessarily in the emotional sense.

http://www.ew.com/ew/package/0,,1550612_20245764,00.html

So i guess this confirms that Juliet is dead then, she didn't get a visit from Jacob what so ever and I found the absence of Jacob from her flashback kind of jarring, but it makes sense in hindsight. What a sad end for her, but she served her purpose and went off like Charilie, a tragic hero.

As for Locke being dead, i agree that dead id dead as someone upthread said...but i wonder what the consequences of the hydrogen bomb are, will the losties wake up in the present and be reunited with the others and Sun?

And if Jacob's side is the good side who is the bad side? The others, Illiana's crew and our losties all seem to follow Jacob...so who would be the other side of the war? Christian and Claire?

So... what does the touching do?? Give one his or her destiny?

Why were Kate and Sawyer visited as children and all the rest visited as adults?

Jacob's gifts to Kate and Sawyer. Giving Kate the lunchbox she was stealing and Sawyer the pen, then promises his uncle he wouldn't finish the letter. Not very good lessons for the young.
http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/f5b6f17b6d856ea4b689fefc4b86a9e7

Jacob also touched Ilana.

That, right there, is awesome! I'm glad they bring us back to the biblical reference speculated on back when we first heard of this mystical dude. I really like the guy they cast as Jacob. Not what I expected, but it worked perfectly; he was so calm and had that wisdom in his eyes that I would expect of Jacob. Fitting, I think (even though I woulda expected an older man). I wonder if the ghostly shape we saw in the cabin actually was just Christian's shadow. Sure didnt look like Jacob.

.

No, it didn't and I'm actually wondering if it was the other dude (Esau for lack of a better name) that he was speaking with in the beginning. I'm kind of along the lines of thinking that Jacob might have actually had him imprisoned in the cabin? That Jacob was in the temple the entire time. When we saw the knife with the temple thing pinned to the wall it was actually put there by whoever that dude was.

Yes, that was for me the most tense, intense, poignant, significant moment in the episode.
At first, I really thought that Ben might understand what Jacob was saying. Ben *always* had free will when he chose to follow Jacob's (and fake Alex's) orders. Everything Ben did was by his own choice, he could have at any time opted out.

Ben, not Jacob, is responsible for his misery during all those years he was leader. Then Ben had exactly the same choice about following fake-Locke's instructions. I was all primed for Ben's redemption, that was the moment, the opportunity. But Ben just didn't get it. How tragic.


True...but remember...If Jacob really is the *hate to even voice this* 'Christ-figure', with Ben being the 'Judas'...Christ did forgive Judas...it was Judas that couldn't forgive himself...unlike Peter that eventually realized he still loved him, even though he denounced him. Christ realized that Judas himself was deceived, by 'the father of lies'....So on that note...it will be interesting to see what happens to Ben when he sees that the corpse of John is laying outside the temple.

Whew..Intense stuff!

So... what does the touching do?? Give one his or her destiny?

I believe I read somewhere that in the Old Testament is says.....
"He who is touched by Jacob can never bring him harm.
He who is touched by Jacob will forever protect him."

But I can't be sure about those quotes :undecide:

I believe I read somewhere that in the Old Testament is says.....
"He who is touched by Jacob can never bring him harm.
He who is touched by Jacob will forever protect him."

But I can't be sure about those quotes :undecide:

Wow, if that's the case, that would totally make sense. Nice thinking JWB!

Jacob also touched Ben. After Ben stabbed Jacob the second time, Jacob went forward and touched Ben arm.

I don't think that we can blindly assume that it WAS Jacob in the temple that saved Ben.

Just sayin'

:drowsy:

I believe I read somewhere that in the Old Testament is says.....
"He who is touched by Jacob can never bring him harm.
He who is touched by Jacob will forever protect him."

But I can't be sure about those quotes :undecide:

JW you're at 777

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob

I guess Ilana will be a regular next year and we'll get her back story. She seems to be the only one who already knew Jacob.

Poor Ben flunked the test, believing Smokey-as-Alex, all anger and no love, while ignoring Jacob's message of love and free will. (The Biblical Jacob--who died in Egypt BTW--loved Benjamin the most of all.)

Cardie

I really like where this is going. The flashbacks in this where done very well, I was worried after seeing Sayid's debacle in HOY, but these were good.

I wonder if Ben is going to realize his mistake. He's still holding a knife in his hands, could he take it to Locke?

But did he need to touch Hurley? Everyone else he touched (other than Sayid) he touched before they had gone to the Island. maybe that had something to do with it. Plus, Hurley was given something from Jacob. Which makes me wonder if Hurley has even looked in the guitar case.

I'm thinking Hurley is going to be apart of something big. Not only does he have a mysterious guitar case, but he did see the cabin with CS and Esau now I'm guessing, in it. He may play as large a part for Jacob's side, as Ben played for Esau's.

I like the impression I got that from this finale on Hurley going forward. Not much of him in this. But we saw almost everyone who Jacob visited have some key part in the finale or events leading up to the finale.

Actually, Jacob loved Joseph most of all, with Benjamin a close second because they both had the same mother.

It is confusing as to what Jacob's "blessing" is.

He actually caused Nadia to be killed by that van by stopping Sayid. Had he not done that, then they both would have already been across the street. So was he saving Sayid or killing Nadia to free up Sayid to return to the island?

His interaction with Jack was most insignificant - just "Is this your candy bar?"

He helps Sawyer write his letter by giving him a pen, setting him on track to land on the island.

Very confusing stuff.

I think Jacob's plan was to ensure that Ben grew up to become a man capable of feeling slighted, and capable of killing him. To do that, he needed Sayid to shoot him on the islandin 1977. imo. I think the hard choices Jacob had to make may have culminated in the possible resetting of events (though I'm not sold on that yet).

Either way, it seemed like Jacob goaded Ben into killing him at the end. That was a prime time moment for Jacob to drop some knowledge on Ben, like maybe Locke isn't Locke. That might have stayed the knife wound. But he didn't. He provoked Ben, almost as if it was part of Jacob's plan.

I think Esau has been so focused on finding his loophole, on finding his Ben, that Easu's overlooked the idea that his parts of his plan, actually served a potential Jacob plan.

Example: Getting Richard to tell gunshot Locke that he was going to have to die. Sure, it gets Locke's body back to the island, and I don't think the Smoke Monster can disguise himself as anyone with out a body on the island (maybe for reference, see Yemi, CS), but Locke's death was also the catalyst for Jack and the others return. And as we saw, Jacob touched them, which again makes me think they're Jacob's A Team for the final conflict.

I think part's of Esau's plan fit into a larger plan by Jacob. We'll see of course. Love where this is heading.

Then Jack said something like "yeah, it was stuck" to which Jacob replied,"sometimes it just needs a little push". Maybe Jacob was giving them all a little push? Of course, Christian and Jack's interaction right before Jacob appeared was about CS giving his son a little push in the OR. Either way, that was a very significant moment!

It was a significant moment. I think Jacob was trying to put the thought in Jack's head that CS was just trying to push him, seeing as the scene came on the heels of Jack and his father in the hall way. CS was right too, Jack didn't believe in himself enough (which was also partly CS's fault for riding him so hard but I digress).

I like how they showed us the story that we've only heard. And that we heard it in the pilot is awesome because it makes me think they had the idea for that scene in the wings for five seasons.

I like where this is going however, if his touched saved their lives.. why is Locke (good Locke) still a corpse.. in a box.

I think Locke's destiny as leader was a misdirection. I think Locke's sole purpose was to ensure that Jacob's A-Team of Losties returned to the island. Locke getting killed by Ben off island made that happen. It got Jack, who got most of the rest of them.

Jacob may have needed Locke to talk about destiny to Jack constantly so that Jack's return to the island would see a different Jack. A Jack capable of detonation a hydrogen bomb perhaps. JohnnyWishbone brought out a potentially key quote. I think Jacob needs this A team as protectors and fighters for his side in whatever final battle is going to take place.

While we most likely will see Terry O'quinn next year as this new version of Locke, I think good, flawed, old Locke is dead on the beach.

So i guess this confirms that Juliet is dead then....

Christian and Claire?

A nuke went off. If it confirms Juliet's dead, then it confirms all the Losties in 1977 are dead.

I don't think Claire is in league with Esau. I think if Esau is using Smokey to assume CS's form and then later, Alex's and Locke's, that it shows you can only use the Smoke Monster to assume one identity, so to speak, at a time. Locke walked away from Ben in Dead is Dead, then Ben met with Smokey and saw Alex. Then Alex left and we saw Locke again.

I don't think CS in the cabin with Claire could have both been the Smoke Monster.

I think Esau as CS, potentially, wanted to get Aaron away from the island, because as Eko's biblical story about Aaron being a great man showed us, Aaron was the voice of Moses. Esau maybe didn't want anyone to grow up and take a position of power on the island, whether Aaron may have become the next RA (he's certainly the voice of Jacob) or Aaron would take over for Jacob, who knows.

I think Esau didn't want anyone be in a position of power on the island that was against his postion. CS tricked Claire into leaving him, and potentially Claire's been imprisoned somewhere. Shamrock pointed out in another thread, we may see Jacob goes back to touch her next year. She is related to Jack. Maybe that has osmething to do with it.

I really like where this is going. The flashbacks in this where done very well, I was worried after seeing Sayid's debacle in HOY, but these were good.

I wonder if Ben is going to realize his mistake. He's still holding a knife in his hands, could he take it to Locke?



I'm thinking Hurley is going to be apart of something big. Not only does he have a mysterious guitar case, but he did see the cabin with CS and Esau now I'm guessing, in it. He may play as large a part for Jacob's side, as Ben played for Esau's.

I like the impression I got that from this finale on Hurley going forward. Not much of him in this. But we saw almost everyone who Jacob visited have some key part in the finale or events leading up to the finale.



I think Jacob's plan was to ensure that Ben grew up to become a man capable of feeling slighted, and capable of killing him. To do that, he needed Sayid to shoot him on the islandin 1977. imo. I think the hard choices Jacob had to make may have culminated in the possible resetting of events (though I'm not sold on that yet).

Either way, it seemed like Jacob goaded Ben into killing him at the end. That was a prime time moment for Jacob to drop some knowledge on Ben, like maybe Locke isn't Locke. That might have stayed the knife wound. But he didn't. He provoked Ben, almost as if it was part of Jacob's plan.

I think Esau has been so focused on finding his loophole, on finding his Ben, that Easu's overlooked the idea that his parts of his plan, actually served a potential Jacob plan.

Example: Getting Richard to tell gunshot Locke that he was going to have to die. Sure, it gets Locke's body back to the island, and I don't think the Smoke Monster can disguise himself as anyone with out a body on the island (maybe for reference, see Yemi, CS), but Locke's death was also the catalyst for Jack and the others return. And as we saw, Jacob touched them, which again makes me think they're Jacob's A Team for the final conflict.

I think part's of Esau's plan fit into a larger plan by Jacob. We'll see of course. Love where this is heading.



It was a significant moment. I think Jacob was trying to put the thought in Jack's head that CS was just trying to push him, seeing as the scene came on the heels of Jack and his father in the hall way. CS was right too, Jack didn't believe in himself enough (which was also partly CS's fault for riding him so hard but I digress).

I like how they showed us the story that we've only heard. And that we heard it in the pilot is awesome because it makes me think they had the idea for that scene in the wings for five seasons.



I think Locke's destiny as leader was a misdirection. I think Locke's sole purpose was to ensure that Jacob's A-Team of Losties returned to the island. Locke getting killed by Ben off island made that happen. It got Jack, who got most of the rest of them.

Jacob may have needed Locke to talk about destiny to Jack constantly so that Jack's return to the island would see a different Jack. A Jack capable of detonation a hydrogen bomb perhaps. JohnnyWishbone brought out a potentially key quote. I think Jacob needs this A team as protectors and fighters for his side in whatever final battle is going to take place.

While we most likely will see Terry O'quinn next year as this new version of Locke, I think good, flawed, old Locke is dead on the beach.



A nuke went off. If it confirms Juliet's dead, then it confirms all the Losties in 1977 are dead.

I don't think Claire is in league with Esau. I think if Esau is using Smokey to assume CS's form and then later, Alex's and Locke's, that it shows you can only use the Smoke Monster to assume one identity, so to speak, at a time. Locke walked away from Ben in Dead is Dead, then Ben met with Smokey and saw Alex. Then Alex left and we saw Locke again.

I don't think CS in the cabin with Claire could have both been the Smoke Monster.

I think Esau as CS, potentially, wanted to get Aaron away from the island, because as Eko's biblical story about Aaron being a great man showed us, Aaron was the voice of Moses. Esau maybe didn't want anyone to grow up and take a position of power on the island, whether Aaron may have become the next RA (he's certainly the voice of Jacob) or Aaron would take over for Jacob, who knows.

I think Esau didn't want anyone be in a position of power on the island that was against his postion. CS tricked Claire into leaving him, and potentially Claire's been imprisoned somewhere. Shamrock pointed out in another thread, we may see Jacob goes back to touch her next year. She is related to Jack. Maybe that has osmething to do with it.

Dang Merch, it was you that crashed the server with these long posts! ;)

Jacob, knowing what Esau might do and Esau getting caught up in "his plan" reminds me of Dumbledore and Voldemort in the HP series. When Voldemort used Harry's blood to create his new body, he thought it would make him extra powerful, yet that little detail is what actually led to his downfall. Seems like Lost may take a page out of the Harry Potter books!

I have to say I feel sorry for the real Locke. He was a poor, manipulated dupe his whole life, even though he desperately wanted to be a mystical leader.

Cardie

Genisis 49:27 Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; in the morning he devours the prey, in the evening he divides the plunder.

Benjamin's desendents were noted for their savagery. Those of you who remember Sunday School should remember that King Saul, who tried to kill David 14 times in 7 years, came from the tribe of Benjamin.

Sometimes blessings are actually curses.

Funny you should mention that. At the marina in LA, before Ben attempts to kill Penny we see one boat name while he is on the phone with Widmore: Savage. Also, at the marina the night before when Ben tries to convince the 05 to return to the island we see one boat name prominantly there as well: Illusion.

This thread is great work of thought... can some of you work out the details of the acient inscription on the wall in Jacobs under the foot temple and the weaving stuff???

There must be a reason that Jacob (if it was him and not the "other beach guy") choose Sawyer and Kate as children. The rest of the group were chosen as adults. It seems there must be a reason for this but I can't figure what it would be.

I'll take responisibility for crashing the 'lage.

One post as long as The Rime of The Ancient Mariner, and a second duplicate as an encore.

If I still wasn't having trouble navigating, I'd check and see if that happened with the three posts that I tried to put in other threads. I'm gonna go re-watch the episode and hope things cool down in a couple hours on here.

...
Either way, it seemed like Jacob goaded Ben into killing him at the end.... He provoked Ben, almost as if it was part of Jacob's plan.

I think Esau has been so focused on finding his loophole, on finding his Ben, that Easu's overlooked the idea that his parts of his plan, actually served a potential Jacob plan.

Example: Getting Richard to tell gunshot Locke that he was going to have to die. Sure, it gets Locke's body back to the island, and I don't think the Smoke Monster can disguise himself as anyone with out a body on the island (maybe for reference, see Yemi, CS), but Locke's death was also the catalyst for Jack and the others return. And as we saw, Jacob touched them, which again makes me think they're Jacob's A Team for the final conflict.

I think part's of Esau's plan fit into a larger plan by Jacob. We'll see of course. Love where this is heading.

Man, Merch, great ideas. Agree that Jacob's got a bigger plan that incorporates Esau's plan and will eventually, hopefully, turn it against Esau.

It was a significant moment. I think Jacob was trying to put the thought in Jack's head that CS was just trying to push him, seeing as the scene came on the heels of Jack and his father in the hall way. CS was right too, Jack didn't believe in himself enough (which was also partly CS's fault for riding him so hard but I digress).

I like how they showed us the story that we've only heard. And that we heard it in the pilot is awesome because it makes me think they had the idea for that scene in the wings for five seasons.

Agree that this was a significant moment for Jack, but I think it was retrofitted. I think as Jack told it to Kate it said something about the type of person he was, which was a person who could acknowledge and conquer his fears. As it played out in the finale, it was not a coping mechanism Jack developed, but one that was laid on him by his father, and in the context of being humiliated, no less. I think that backstory took something away from the character of Jack -- even the way he conquered his fears was second-hand, and in the context of a "time-out."

....


I don't think Claire is in league with Esau. I think if Esau is using Smokey to assume CS's form and then later, Alex's and Locke's, that it shows you can only use the Smoke Monster to assume one identity, so to speak, at a time. Locke walked away from Ben in Dead is Dead, then Ben met with Smokey and saw Alex. Then Alex left and we saw Locke again.

I don't think CS in the cabin with Claire could have both been the Smoke Monster.

I think Esau as CS, potentially, wanted to get Aaron away from the island, because as Eko's biblical story about Aaron being a great man showed us, Aaron was the voice of Moses. Esau maybe didn't want anyone to grow up and take a position of power on the island, whether Aaron may have become the next RA (he's certainly the voice of Jacob) or Aaron would take over for Jacob, who knows.

I think Esau didn't want anyone be in a position of power on the island that was against his postion. CS tricked Claire into leaving him, and potentially Claire's been imprisoned somewhere. Shamrock pointed out in another thread, we may see Jacob goes back to touch her next year. She is related to Jack. Maybe that has osmething to do with it.

Agree that it was pretty obvious that Locke reappeared right after Alex disappeared in Smokey's chamber. That even struck me at the time.

Really great insight that Esau would not want Aaron on the island and therefore CS tricked Claire into leaving him. What about Kate's dream of Claire saying "Don't you dare bring him back?" Do you think she was talking about Aaron or Locke there?

I have to say I feel sorry for the real Locke. He was a poor, manipulated dupe his whole life, even though he desperately wanted to be a mystical leader.

Cardie

Agree totally, Cardie. If that is the way they're going to leave it, and it does appear that dead is indeed dead, it makes me very sad for Locke, who was a dupe to the end. Even if his destiny did consist of bringing the O6 back to the island, that wasn't the destiny he understood or embraced. Although Darlton always emphasized Locke's centrality to Lost, and serving as a method for getting the others in place for the final battle doesn't exactly make him central. Plus, Locke did seem to be in touch with the island, separate from any false ideas Esau-Locke may have had Richard transmit to Locke about a future leadership role...

100%
Dang Merch, it was you that crashed the server with these long posts! ;)

Jacob, knowing what Esau might do and Esau getting caught up in "his plan" reminds me of Dumbledore and Voldemort in the HP series. When Voldemort used Harry's blood to create his new body, he thought it would make him extra powerful, yet that little detail is what actually led to his downfall. Seems like Lost may take a page out of the Harry Potter books!

Exactly!

I have to say I feel sorry for the real Locke. He was a poor, manipulated dupe his whole life, even though he desperately wanted to be a mystical leader.
Cardie

Yeah, this has been the toughest pill for me to swallow from last night's season finale. Locke has basically serve as the puppet for everyone and everything he ever cared about his whole life. As a fan of the "newly-energized, purposeful" Locke , It definitely was not what I was hoping would happen but what I feared would.

mmpd, thank for enjoying and getting thru each post.

As far as Kate's dream of Claire, I'm not sure who she was talking about. Since it was a dream Kate had, I was kinda holding onto the idea that phone call in the dream represented the part of Kate's mind that knew she needed to go back and Claire in Aaron's room telling her not to bring him back, was the motherly side of Kate's mind telling her to protect Aaron by keeping him away.

Both the phone call and Claire as potential manifestations of Kate's own interior desires. It being a dream, I don't know if it has a more direct tie to the island.

I've been able to post with out too much lag, but I'm gonna re-watch again here soon. The Jack CS scene from that stand point, does seem to cheapen it a bit in relooking at it in the pilot. Still, I think a part of Jack may have realized that it was his father trying to show his beliefe in his son's ability. That he was trying to keep the panic rat from running around inside Jack.

I do think Christian could have expressed that better to Jack, maybe with a direct, I have the utmost confidence you can fix her Jack. Just take five seconds and let the fear out. Something like that, but when has Lost given direct answers on a persons motivations.

In retrospect as well, in looking at fake Locke. He knows where to find the Smoke Monster, but conveniently plays dumb on Jacob's whereabouts. That should have been a tip off to us. Playing dumb on where Jacob was keeps any serious red flags from spiking on RA's and Ben's front, and keeps them from uniting again under thier shared suspicion. Esau/Fake Locke needed to goad Ben into killing Jacob.

And he needed RA to still be in Locke's confidence to a degree so that RA wouldn't mount up the others and stop him.

I can't wait to see the continuation of where that half of the story left off. If there is a continuation, depending on what Jughead does.

Biblical Jacob actually gave each of his children individual blessings...
http://www.carelinks.net/doc/biblelives-en/18

More importantly , in the Bible Jacob's blessings were all related to the "kingdom" and eternal life. I would say "the Kingdom" represents the Island. His touch to the Losties signified giving them a part of the Island as their future as well as the promise of new life...physical and spiritual life.

From the above link...

He seems to have perceived the spiritual danger his children were in, living in the luxury of Egypt. Thus Jacob at the end realized the importance of warning God's people against the world, against the temptation of feeling that God's present material blessing of us with a foretaste of His Kingdom means that in fact we lose our enthusiasm for the true Kingdom, in its real, material sense. Like Paul in his final flourish of 2 Tim., Jacob saw the need to warn God's people, to point them away from the world, and towards the future Kingdom. Jacob saw that his people, like him in his earlier life, would be tempted to see God's promises on an altogether too human and material level.

he didn't touch Hurley

he also gave him a choice

Free will seems to be a definite theme for Jacob. Esau/Locke says people are destined to be evil. Jacob says they have a choice. The final showdown, was like the final showdown of the book of Job, but the Esau/Locke/Satan winning the bet. When Ben started ranting about how everything was unfair and he deserved to be special like Locke, Locke had a gleam of victory, and Jacob looked let down.

I'm thinking Hurley is going to be apart of something big. Not only does he have a mysterious guitar case, but he did see the cabin with CS and Esau now I'm guessing, in it.

I agree. Jacob talked to him at greater length than the other, and seemed to like him. Locke could see/hear Jacob and the cabin because he was the reincarnated Esau. But why could Hurley? Hurley must have a very important role. Maybe Hurley is Job -- the one who can loose everything that's important to him and still be good.

I think Locke's destiny as leader was a misdirection. I think Locke's sole purpose was to ensure that Jacob's A-Team of Losties returned to the island. Locke getting killed by Ben off island made that happen. It got Jack, who got most of the rest of them.

While we most likely will see Terry O'quinn next year as this new version of Locke, I think good, flawed, old Locke is dead on the beach.
Locke hasn't gone anywhere. They've done everything possible to bring home the point that this is still the same Locke... talking to Ben about when they first met, about pretending to talk to Jacob, talking to Sun about Jin and their friends. When he was first resurrected, he remembered dying. But he also remembered "lots of things". Like his purpose. His purpose from his life before he was born as John Locke.

I have to say I feel sorry for the real Locke. He was a poor, manipulated dupe his whole life, even though he desperately wanted to be a mystical leader.
But he wasn't. He was miraculously healed by the island. He had a communion with the island, which he understood better than Ben ever did. He knew when the rain would start and stop. He knew that living with houses with running water and refrigerators wasn't the way of the island. And he knew that he had an important purpose. He still has all those things, except now he remembers what that purpose was... to kill Jacob, and then get rid of all the people infesting the island.

See, my impression is that all the more mystical aspects of the island are Esau's bag of tricks, and Locke was the one most receptive to them. Jacob, although obviously a supernatural power, is a humanist. He's all about giving people choices, hoping they will choose the way of blessing and not curse. If you think you must submit yourself to a power greater than yourself, you don't prove Jacob's position in the game, which is that human beings are potentially good and can make right choices by their own free will.

The real John Locke died in that hotel and his body is in the silver box. Esau is able to duplicate and inhabit his body and his Smokey powers have downloaded Locke's life experiences, but it turns out John Locke did die a few months after returning to the real world.

Cardie

There must be a reason that Jacob (if it was him and not the "other beach guy") choose Sawyer and Kate as children. The rest of the group were chosen as adults. It seems there must be a reason for this but I can't figure what it would be.

I know, I'm getting the feeling we were shown Jacob choosing the kids for the 815 flight and the adults for the 316 flight.

still trying to wrap my brain around why?

BTW Loved Lil Katie's "New Kids On the Block" Luch box!

Biblical Jacob actually gave each of his children individual blessings...
http://www.carelinks.net/doc/biblelives-en/18


Interesting link; thanks. It's quite convincing that each of Jacob's personal contacts with the people involved, and the gifts to most of them.

Not Jin and Sun, though? Notice that Jacob came to Jin and Sun's wedding, and now the two are separated. That feels ominous to me.

Jacob's gifts were indeed blessings in a deep sense. Further, each blessing was a kind of "metaphor" pointing to some deeper truth about each individual person.

We have yet to find out exactly what Hurley's was. With Pythagoras99 I am hoping for a most excellent resolution for Hurley. And ITA that Hurley is *very* Job-like; suffering the loss of Libby, and so on, without bitterness. (Ben OTOH is kind of the "anti-Job" - his words to Jacob, after all those years of seeking him, are all "What about me? Me? Me?" I can't see Hurley doing that.)

I really don't know. My next big question is who is this other guy that Jacob was with on the beach.

We do not know who the guys is, nor are we aware of his name. We believe that he's the smoke monster, and the one who went to killed Jacob disguise as Locke. Some people have given him the name " ESAU" like in the Biblical sense . Esau was fraternal twin brother of Jacob.



Esau is the brother of Jacob - the patriarch and founder of the Israelites -- in the biblical Book of Genesis. Esau was the oldest son of Isaac and Rebekah and the grandson of Abraham. Jacob and Esau were fraternal twins. Esau first and Jacob was birthed second, which entitled Esau to inherit the wealth of his father after his death. But Jacob tricked Esau into selling him , his birthright.


I think it very important that we see Jacob offer Esau /black shirt guy food/a fish.

Genesis 25:29-34 shows him willingly selling his birthright to Jacob[1] in exchange for a "mess of pottage" (meal of lentils). Controversy has surrounded this scripture, in that some have noted that Esau may have been in danger of starving to death and was taken advantage of by Jacob in a vulnerable moment. Certainly, Jacob's refusal to share his food without exacting a high price from Esau is in conflict with Biblical principles for moral living such as charity and goodwill. However, others[who?] suggest that among the large entourage of Isaac's wealthy household, death from starvation would not likely have been a genuine danger simply on account of Esau not having caught anything while hunting that day.







Also, we don't know WHEN Jacob touched them? Meaning, can Jacob possible travel through time? And ocne he found them on the island, he went back in time to various point to "mark" them?

Jacob touch Kate when she was a little girl trying to steal a lunch box.
Jacob touch Jack while he was a first year resident at the hospital.
Jacob touch Sun and Jin at their wedding
Jacob touch Locke when he was thrown from the window by his father
Jacob touch Sawyer after his parent funeral.


After the crash:

Jacob touch Sayid "Before" Nadia was hit by the car , and killed. Jacob stop Sayid.
Jacob touch Hurley when he was in the psychiatric hospital .

Interesting link; thanks. It's quite convincing that each of Jacob's personal contacts with the people involved, and the gifts to most of them.

Not Jin and Sun, though? Notice that Jacob came to Jin and Sun's wedding, and now the two are separated. That feels ominous to me.

Jacob's gifts were indeed blessings in a deep sense. Further, each blessing was a kind of "metaphor" pointing to some deeper truth about each individual person.

We have yet to find out exactly what Hurley's was. With Pythagoras99 I am hoping for a most excellent resolution for Hurley. And ITA that Hurley is *very* Job-like; suffering the loss of Libby, and so on, without bitterness. (Ben OTOH is kind of the "anti-Job" - his words to Jacob, after all those years of seeking him, are all "What about me? Me? Me?" I can't see Hurley doing that.)


With Sun and Jin,he did give them a blessing....he blessed their love and their marriage and he touched both of them telling them never to take their marriage fore granted.

Per another site about Moses' blessings in the Bible...this also suggests that Jacob may be "shaping" the Losties' destinies.
Blessing,as used in the Old Testament... It has the idea of enabling or empowering a person, of propelling them forward into their future. It’s an active word, one that suggests that the person doing the blessing is helping to make the future happen. The person giving the blessing is sharing in – and to an extent shaping – the future of the person receiving.

And Moses' blessings of the 12 tribes of Israel is found in Deuteronomy which some consider the Book of Law.


It is interesting how Jacob appeared to only Kate and Sawyer as children,the others were adults. That was def. a pivotal moment in Sawyer's life but not sure how it was a significant moment in Kate's life...unless....we look at Jacob as appearing at moments that are later repeated as each Lostie finally achieves redemption.

Sawyer - Has to let go of his anger and keep in mind,what's done is done.
Young Sawyer is given a choice by Jacob....he chooses to use the pen and basically writes his own life/identity as a man who spends his life full of anger and seeking revenge,

Kate - Has to stop trying to evade her mistakes and take responsibility for her own actions. And she needs to stop looking to men to bail her out.

Sun/Jin - Need to realize what they have is special and not take it for granted.

Sayid - ?
Locke - He needs to have faith???

Jack - Needs to stop with needing control and not believing....he needs a push towards believing?

Hurley - Needs to realize he is not cursed and can make choices.

All of them were meant to be on 815. Were meant to be on that island.

He touched Kate's nose, Jack's finger, Sun and Jin's shoulders, Locke's shoulder (brought him back to life!), Sawyer's hand, Sayid' something (don't remember).
I'm sorry for wasted bandwidth, but I just had to give a shoutout to LostLaura for this: what a great catch! Bravo! :biggrin:

Why were Kate and Sawyer visited as children and all the rest visited as adults?

Jacob's gifts to Kate and Sawyer. Giving Kate the lunchbox she was stealing and Sawyer the pen, then promises his uncle he wouldn't finish the letter. Not very good lessons for the young.
http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/f5b6f17b6d856ea4b689fefc4b86a9e7

Jacob also touched Ilana.

I thought about this as well. Jacob ENABLED Kate and Sawyer to be the people they became. He helped Sawyer to finish that note. If he got the moral lecture with a busted pencil he may really have given it all up. If Kate's mom and the cops were called maybe she would have been scared straight and reformed. He enabled them into the lives they led which led them to Australia and Oceanic 815. Great stuff!

His interaction with Jack was most insignificant - just "Is this your candy bar?"


On the contrary, it was not insignificant. It plays back to the first real thing we learned about Jack: the story of him conquering his fear. Of course, as Jack told it, he did it himself, but in the flashback we learn that it was Christian who told him to count to five and then do what needed to be done. Then, we see Jack confront Christian in the hallway after the candy bar gets stuck. We get Christians chastising of Jack because he doesn't believe in himself and Christian pushed him in the operating room to succeed. Then Jacob ask him if it's his candy bar, Jack says "yeah, it got stuck," and Jacob replies "I guess it just needed a little push," which does a great job of describing both what just happened to Jack, and what has happened to jack throughout the entire series: little pushes that find Jack back in the leadership role. Simple, eloquent, and very symbolic.

Anyone notice that on Jacob's tapestry there appears to be a godlike eye at the top, with lots of hands reaching out to people? Some of them even seem to have been touched by him.

The New Kid on the Block lunch box went on to become Katie and Tom's time capsule.

There are a few things that seem off to me.

I have to find the transcript. Nadia's accident for one, the Apollo candy bar is another.

Could they be the people who survive this explosion?

Also, we don't know WHEN Jacob touched them? Meaning, can Jacob possible travel through time? And ocne he found them on the island, he went back in time to various point to "mark" them?
100%
Could they be the people who survive this explosion?

Also, we don't know WHEN Jacob touched them? Meaning, can Jacob possible travel through time? And ocne he found them on the island, he went back in time to various point to "mark" them?

I agree. I was thinking the same thing. His touch somehow protects them from the bomb going off. He was planning on Locke surviving and not being killed.

I think it's significant, but... I don't know how exactly. My brain hurts.

Jacobs tapestry is Aten http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atenism

Goddess Ma'at with her wings of protection stretched out.

That we are aware of. Before this episode we did not know he met any of these people.

Yep. I suspect we'll see more of Jacob and out Losties in backflashes in S6. This was just a hint of what's to come.

I do think it's important that he touches them. It's almost as if they are marked - for something special? Who knows. We get a hint in the beginning that Jacob keeps trying to find those who can set humanity on the path to peaceful living. Live together, die alone?

No offense to anyone's religious beliefs but I don't believe the writers mean for Jacob and faux Locke to be any literal persons, past or present. There are many myths with similar themes, plus the Egyptian clues are far more telling of what may be the underlying mythos of the island, imo.

Could they be the people who survive this explosion?

Also, we don't know WHEN Jacob touched them? Meaning, can Jacob possible travel through time? And ocne he found them on the island, he went back in time to various point to "mark" them?

I assume he touched them after 1977. I assume Black Shirt (or Esau) created the time loop as an elaborate scheme to kill Jacob. Jacob, however partially recognized Black Shirt's the plan when these people from the future started showing up in 1977. He (who can possibly work outside of Whatever Happened, Happened) goes and finds all these people and touches them, giving them a bit of his spirit.

The each manipulated the time loop from opposite ends.

Now that Black Shirt has succeeded in killing Jacob, Jacob's spirit (through the touched Losties) will come back to kill Black Shirt.

The only part that doesn't make sense is why touch Locke. Locke was duped by Black Shirt, which began the time loop. So he was already in Black Shirt's court. And now he's dead in 2008, so he can't help Jacob's cause.

Jacob touch Kate when she was a little girl trying to steal a lunch box.
Jacob touch Jack while he was a first year resident at the hospital.
Jacob touch Sun and Jin at their wedding
Jacob touch Locke when he was thrown from the window by his father
Jacob touch Sawyer after his parent funeral.


After the crash:

Jacob touch Sayid "Before" Nadia was hit by the car , and killed. Jacob stop Sayid.
Jacob touch Hurley when he was in the psychiatric hospital .

I meant WHEN for Jacob. As in, did he realize what was happening and go back in time to find these people and "recruit" them.



The only part that doesn't make sense is why touch Locke. Locke was duped by Black Shirt, which began the time loop. So he was already in Black Shirt's court. And now he's dead in 2008, so he can't help Jacob's cause.

That's the ONLY part that doesn't make sense?!?! :biggrin:

Just kidding. Good theory, I like it.

I thought about this as well. Jacob ENABLED Kate and Sawyer to be the people they became. He helped Sawyer to finish that note. If he got the moral lecture with a busted pencil he may really have given it all up. If Kate's mom and the cops were called maybe she would have been scared straight and reformed. He enabled them into the lives they led which led them to Australia and Oceanic 815. Great stuff!

Exactly. Also, maybe there was some good luck ju-ju in Jacob's touch. Con man and running from the cops for life with out getting caught or killed for as long as they did was pretty long odds imo.

I was coming to that realization too, that Jacob's visits to them as kids were to ensure things played out on the course that led each to the island. The others didn't need that early push or visit.

i say the touch was a touch of choice. he was choosing whom he wanted on the island. for whatever reason. he didn't go to juliet because ben chose her.

He touched Kate's nose, Jack's finger, Sun and Jin's shoulders, Locke's shoulder (brought him back to life!), Sawyer's hand, Sayid' something (don't remember). Anyone else?


I just rewatched the ep, and I don't see him touching Sayid at all.

Also, with Ilana, he didn't tough her either, just leaned in close to her. They seemed to already know each other.

Also, with Ilana, he didn't tough her either, just leaned in close to her. They seemed to already know each other.

I believe that Jacob is wearing gloves in this scene, so did that mean that he didn't "need" to touch her--she was already part of the "what lies in the shadow of the statue" group?

I believe that Jacob is wearing gloves in this scene, so did that mean that he didn't "need" to touch her--she was already part of the "what lies in the shadow of the statue" group?

yeah, that's what I mean. They already knew each other. She actually says "I'm so happy to see you."

Jacob yanked Sayid out of the crosswalk.

Jacob may not have touched illana, but she seems to be part of a second group jacob may have put together. Maybe he already touched her, she certainly had some island mythology knowledge that the Losties who were touched did not.

Maybe she's part of an Off Island Other's Faction. Seeing her laid up in that hospital bed, do you think we'll get to see how she ended up there?

Jacob's touch also preceded fairly significant choices that would be coming up for them to exercise free will. Most of them didn't do too well. Kate did go back to crime, although much later. Sayid's reaction to Nadia's death was to become Ben's assassin. Jack did not get over his daddy issues. James did not take his uncle's advice to move on from his anger at the real Sawyer.

Sun and Jin did battle through and preserve their marriage, and Hurley did decide to get on Ajira 316.

Cardie

I think that you could possibly say that they all did exactly what needed to happen to get them to the island.

Kate realized that she could steal without any consequences at an early age. She ends up following this path her whole life up until she gets to the island

If Jacob doesn't give Sawyer the pen then he never finishes the letter regardless of what his uncle says. Without that letter I don't think Sawyer spends all that time looking for Cooper and never goes to Australia.

I think Jack and Christians strained relationship directly contributed to Christian being a raging alcoholic which leads to his death.

If Sayid never works for Ben then Ilana has no reason to "arrest" him.

The New Kid on the Block lunch box went on to become Katie and Tom's time capsule.

There are a few things that seem off to me.

I have to find the transcript. Nadia's accident for one, the Apollo candy bar is another.

I agree that some things seem off but I can't put my finger on it. However, I'm wondering if what we think are flashbacks are actually things Jacob is doing now, traveling back in the past to ensure a certain outcome in the present rather than having done these things in the actual past. As Miles tried explaining to Hurley, they traveled back in time but the past is now their present.

Like when Daniel beat on the door of the hatch in the past and told Desmond to go and find his mother, yet Desmond didn't remember it for the rest of his time on the island or off island until suddenly...wham! The memory comes back to him for no reason other than in the other timeline Daniel just told him...

Jacob yanked Sayid out of the crosswalk.



Actually, he just said "Excuse me sir, can you help me?" and Sayid turned around and walked back to him. But I think I just saw Jacob brush Sayid's shoulder when Nadia was hit.

I kept thinking that touch, especially touch on a shoulder, is a classic move in hypnosis. Jacob also has that calm voice.

How hypnosis works (http://science.howstuffworks.com/hypnosis1.htm)

I haven't rewatched the episode yet, but when did Jacob touch Jack? He handed him a candy bar, but I don't remember any physical contact. Same thing with Sayid - Jacob held out a map for him to look at, but was there a touch?

Actually, Jacob loved Joseph most of all, with Benjamin a close second because they both had the same mother.

It is confusing as to what Jacob's "blessing" is.

He actually caused Nadia to be killed by that van by stopping Sayid. Had he not done that, then they both would have already been across the street. So was he saving Sayid or killing Nadia to free up Sayid to return to the island?


What confused me about this scene is that Ben was able to convince Sayid that Nadia was *murdered*. If Sayid was convinced of that, why didn't he suspect the guy who pulled him out of the way to be in on it? Or something. That whole thing seemed a little "off" to me as SamG has noted about other things.

I thought the signifigance of the guitar was that it was Charlies. They needed to bring back as much of the people as possible, Charlies guitar would be to replace Charlie, and would also help convince Hurley to get on the plane.

Right, but I personally find it hard to believe that Hurley would not open the case to see whose it was. Jacob didn't say "it's yours" or "it's yours now". He said "it's not mine." meaning it's someone else's.... recognize it? *That* is what would convince Hurley to go back -- this stranger giving him Charlie's case.

So i guess this confirms that Juliet is dead then, she didn't get a visit from Jacob what so ever and I found the absence of Jacob from her flashback kind of jarring, but it makes sense in hindsight. What a sad end for her, but she served her purpose and went off like Charilie, a tragic hero.

It was extremely jarring. I actually exclaimed, "Where's Jacob??"
As someone says later on upthread, Jules was picked by Ben, of course. That's why she's there. Sigh. If only she'd been selected by Jacob. Maybe she'd be alive.


I like how they showed us the story that we've only heard. And that we heard it in the pilot is awesome because it makes me think they had the idea for that scene in the wings for five seasons. As others said, it cheapened the story for me. Made me more disappointed in Jack. That scene from the Pilot, and then call-back to it at the end of S3 -- those were iconic, pivotal moments in the show, and they were so crucial to Jack-as-hero. And now we see that the moment was actually defining for him in another way -- it was one more brick in the wall of the daddy issues....



Jacob may have needed Locke to talk about destiny to Jack constantly so that Jack's return to the island would see a different Jack. A Jack capable of detonation a hydrogen bomb perhaps. JohnnyWishbone brought out a potentially key quote. I think Jacob needs this A team as protectors and fighters for his side in whatever final battle is going to take place.

While we most likely will see Terry O'quinn next year as this new version of Locke, I think good, flawed, old Locke is dead on the beach.[/qupte] I've never been a Locke fan, so I'm not sure this bothers me. But I feel really bad for anyone who has felt invested in his character. To have him come back to life this season, only to find out that he *was* murdered? That he was, in the end, just a pawn? Awful. So sad.

I am personally excited to see FakeLocke next season though (I hope).

[quote=Merch]

I don't think Claire is in league with Esau. I think if Esau is using Smokey to assume CS's form and then later, Alex's and Locke's, that it shows you can only use the Smoke Monster to assume one identity, so to speak, at a time. Locke walked away from Ben in Dead is Dead, then Ben met with Smokey and saw Alex. Then Alex left and we saw Locke again.

I don't think CS in the cabin with Claire could have both been the Smoke Monster.

I think Esau as CS, potentially, wanted to get Aaron away from the island, because as Eko's biblical story about Aaron being a great man showed us, Aaron was the voice of Moses. Esau maybe didn't want anyone to grow up and take a position of power on the island, whether Aaron may have become the next RA (he's certainly the voice of Jacob) or Aaron would take over for Jacob, who knows.

I think Esau didn't want anyone be in a position of power on the island that was against his postion. CS tricked Claire into leaving him, and potentially Claire's been imprisoned somewhere. Shamrock pointed out in another thread, we may see Jacob goes back to touch her next year. She is related to Jack. Maybe that has osmething to do with it.

I don't think Claire was 'tricked' in a traditional way. I still believe that she died from a head injury in the house explosion. Maybe DeadClaire was "tricked". Either way, I believe that Claire is innocent, always has been, always will be. If she is dead, then she will never be reunited with Aaron. But maybe if time is reset? Who knows... but I don't think she is purposely 'in league' with Esau.

There must be a reason that Jacob (if it was him and not the "other beach guy") choose Sawyer and Kate as children. The rest of the group were chosen as adults. It seems there must be a reason for this but I can't figure what it would be.

I am guessing, based on nothing but my own personal hopes, that others were picked as children, but we didn't see them picked because they died. I would like to believe, for example, that there was a purpose for Shannon, Boone, Charlie, Claire, Eko, Ana, etc. to all be on flight 815. Esau seems to be saying in the opening scene that Jacob keeps bringing peopel to the island, but there continue to be fights and deaths, etc. So I don't think that means that these dead characteres weren't selected or needed or love by Jacob. I think it means that they were unfortunate casualities. And if time resets, and we get to see some of these characters again, I hope we see the time when Jacob visited each of them.


Agree that it was pretty obvious that Locke reappeared right after Alex disappeared in Smokey's chamber. That even struck me at the time.

I have to rewatch so much now! I hadn't thought about that at all. And I hadn't thought about the fact that it's Esau who has been living in Jacob's cabiing. Dur. I guess that is why or partially why Ilana has them torch it.

Oh, and remeber how we learned that the 'eye' in Jacob's cabin that freaks out Hurley last season was Terry O'Quinn's eye? (Cabin Fever? I'm not sure which eppy off-hand). Huh. Talk about some sort of foreshadowing there.


In retrospect as well, in looking at fake Locke. He knows where to find the Smoke Monster, but conveniently plays dumb on Jacob's whereabouts. That should have been a tip off to us. Playing dumb on where Jacob was keeps any serious red flags from spiking on RA's and Ben's front, and keeps them from uniting again under thier shared suspicion. Esau/Fake Locke needed to goad Ben into killing Jacob.

And he needed RA to still be in Locke's confidence to a degree so that RA wouldn't mount up the others and stop him.


Wow.... my mind is kind of blown. I have to say that I was wondering why Locke couldn't just find him on his own. But I didn't put any pieces together, thinking that there was anything suspicious (maybe because I am always a little suspicious of Locke's motives.)

I'm sorry for wasted bandwidth, but I just had to give a shoutout to LostLaura for this: what a great catch! Bravo! :biggrin:

haha thanks. Many people noticed, I just started the thread. In fact jennylee27 pointed it out when we were watching together, but she hasn't had a chance to go on the 'Lage yet.

I thought about this as well. Jacob ENABLED Kate and Sawyer to be the people they became. He helped Sawyer to finish that note. If he got the moral lecture with a busted pencil he may really have given it all up. If Kate's mom and the cops were called maybe she would have been scared straight and reformed. He enabled them into the lives they led which led them to Australia and Oceanic 815. Great stuff!

Really good point.

The New Kid on the Block lunch box went on to become Katie and Tom's time capsule.

There are a few things that seem off to me.

I have to find the transcript. Nadia's accident for one, the Apollo candy bar is another.

I didn't have a problem with Nadia's accent. Sounded normal to me.

Someone at some point said that it was a random time for Jacob to meet up with little Katie. But that moment was sort of defining for her. The time capsule lunchbox. The airplane. Being with her childhood boyfriend. Always with a boy, that Kate. Doing something illegal. All makes sense...

Jacob yanked Sayid out of the crosswalk.

Jacob may not have touched illana, but she seems to be part of a second group jacob may have put together. Maybe he already touched her, she certainly had some island mythology knowledge that the Losties who were touched did not.

Maybe she's part of an Off Island Other's Faction. Seeing her laid up in that hospital bed, do you think we'll get to see how she ended up there?

While I don't really want an episode in the final season to be about a character I don't care about, it looks like we must at least get an episode that partially focuses on her. I mean, they can't give us that scene with her bandaged up, and already knowing Jacob really well, and then tell us nothing else. We need context, Darlton!

I have to say that there is reason to still question Jacob, of course. I mean, we can't take anything at face value on this show, that's for sure. But Ilana's care and respect for him certainly makes me feel pretty confident about him. She looks.... I dunno, devoted I guess is the right word.

I just don't see this as the same Kate.

S2E9 Edward: Nice, corn fed farm girl like yourself... no history of violence, straight A's, no record, couple of speeding tickets... just got to wonder, why'd you kill him now? Oh, right, yeah, don't tell me. You wouldn't want to incriminate yourself, not after you were so smart planning it. That jury back in Iowa sure ain't going to get hung up on pre-meditation. And a gas leak, come on, it's... it's amateur hour from top to bottom.


Haven't we questioned if Apollo bars exist off the isalnd?
S2E4 Hurley: Dharma Initiative Salad Dressing, Ranch composite. Sounds tasty. Apollo bars? Ever hear of these?

Mabye she never did do anything bad or illegal after this flashback until she kills her dad.

Actually, he just said "Excuse me sir, can you help me?" and Sayid turned around and walked back to him. But I think I just saw Jacob brush Sayid's shoulder when Nadia was hit.

Yeah, I was wrong in thinking he was yanked. Here' s the cap of that.

http://i44.tinypic.com/kx6l4.jpg

Also interesting to note that the only clear cut flesh on flesh touches go to sawyer, Jack and Kate. Hurley might have gotten it on the back of the neck or arm, I'm watching the epi again now to see.

Clearly though the Triangle did.

edit: LostLaura, I also looking forward to this new Locke next year, even if he's a bad guy. I love Terry O'quinn's performances in the show. Each Locke was so noticeably different, the guy is good.

edit: though Jacob did touch Locke on the shoulder through his shirt and seemed ot bring him back to life, so skin ain't a prerequisite for any extra specialness I guess.

I just don't see this as the same Kate.

S2E9 Edward: Nice, corn fed farm girl like yourself... no history of violence, straight A's, no record, couple of speeding tickets... just got to wonder, why'd you kill him now? Oh, right, yeah, don't tell me. You wouldn't want to incriminate yourself, not after you were so smart planning it. That jury back in Iowa sure ain't going to get hung up on pre-meditation. And a gas leak, come on, it's... it's amateur hour from top to bottom.


Haven't we questioned if Apollo bars exist off the isalnd?
S2E4 Hurley: Dharma Initiative Salad Dressing, Ranch composite. Sounds tasty. Apollo bars? Ever hear of these?


From The Lost Experience they did....
On August 8, 2006, the Apollo Candy website (formerly apollocandy.com; see note below), a part of The Lost Experience: According to their "official website", the Apollo Candy Company (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Apollo_Candy_Company), which manufactures the Apollo Candy Bars, was founded in San Francisco by M. David Benson (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/M._David_Benson) in 1962. The company ran into hard times in the 1970s, but was rescued by Alvar Hanso (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Alvar_Hanso), the head of the Hanso Foundation (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Hanso_Foundation). Apollo is now the "private purveyor of chocolates for Alvar Hanso and his many companies." The website proclaims that "The Apollo Candy Company (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Apollo_Candy_Company) is a subsidiary of the Hanso Group (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Hanso_Group)."


And the bus that hit Juliet's ex had an Apollo ad on it. So the Apollo bars were around off the Island but it did look so odd in that vending machine.

Yeah, I was wrong in thinking he was yanked. Here' s the cap of that.

http://i44.tinypic.com/kx6l4.jpg

Also interesting to note that the only clear cut flesh on flesh touches go to sawyer, Jack and Kate. Hurley might have gotten it on the back of the neck or arm, I'm watching the epi again now to see.

Clearly though the Triangle did.

edit: LostLaura, I also looking forward to this new Locke next year, even if he's a bad guy. I love Terry O'quinn's performances in the show. Each Locke was so noticeably different, the guy is good.

There's a screen cap of Hurley's touch, I posted it back a couple of pages.

http://getlostpodcast.iimmgg.com/image/f5b6f17b6d856ea4b689fefc4b86a9e7

Always too fast for me Sam :cool:

I'm guilty of one of my own pet peeves, didn't keep up with all progress on the thread

From The Lost Experience they did....
On August 8, 2006, the Apollo Candy website (formerly apollocandy.com; see note below), a part of The Lost Experience: According to their "official website", the Apollo Candy Company (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Apollo_Candy_Company), which manufactures the Apollo Candy Bars, was founded in San Francisco by M. David Benson (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/M._David_Benson) in 1962. The company ran into hard times in the 1970s, but was rescued by Alvar Hanso (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Alvar_Hanso), the head of the Hanso Foundation (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Hanso_Foundation). Apollo is now the "private purveyor of chocolates for Alvar Hanso and his many companies." The website proclaims that "The Apollo Candy Company (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Apollo_Candy_Company) is a subsidiary of the Hanso Group (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Hanso_Group)."


And the bus that hit Juliet's ex had an Apollo ad on it. So the Apollo bars were around off the Island but it did look so odd in that vending machine.

Actually, that write-up is indicating the exact opposite to me: Apollo existed as a regular candy brand through the 70s, but after that was a "private purveyor" of chocolates to Hanso's companies. The major caveat being, of course, that TLE stuff is officially noncanon.

What struck me in these scenes is the number of times the theme of the broken promise occured. Kate swore she wouldn't steal again. James swore he'd let go. And Jin & Sun did their wedding vows. Not sure what's the significance of it or what it says on these specific characters, as it didn't occur with Hurley, Jack and Sayid.

he didn't touch Hurley

he also gave him a choice

He did touch Hurley and Sayid.

What struck me in these scenes is the number of times the theme of the broken promise occured. Kate swore she wouldn't steal again. James swore he'd let go. And Jin & Sun did their wedding vows. .

Maybe we're seeing the corrected timeline, and these people actually kept their promises? Kate didn't become an outlaw, James never wrote his letter, and Sun and Jin settled their problems differently.

He did touch Hurley and Sayid.

Yup, he touched Hurley's shoulder right before he got out of the taxi, and he grabbed Sayid's shoulder right as Nadia got hit by the car, passing it by as an impulse.

i wonder why did Jacob make contact with this special bunch of people ... why them?
i hope to see the answer in season 06.

In Doc Jensen's video, Damon says the episode is "very touching" and not necessarily in the emotional sense.

http://www.ew.com/ew/package/0,,1550612_20245764,00.html


Yes, it means that this "touching" is extremely important

What struck me in these scenes is the number of times the theme of the broken promise occured. Kate swore she wouldn't steal again. James swore he'd let go. And Jin & Sun did their wedding vows. Not sure what's the significance of it or what it says on these specific characters, as it didn't occur with Hurley, Jack and Sayid.

Sun cheated on Jin; she broke her vows.

Don't know if this has any meaning but the only person that Jacob talked to about the island was Hurley. Does that make him special. It's a good thing that Jacob wasn't like my name is Jacob and you should go on this trip. I think if Hurley wouldn't found out his name he wouldn't do anything but maybe roll out of a moving taxi. I think the guitar cases has significant importance to Jacob and now that Hurley has it, it's got to mean something.

Sunder, I beleive when Jacob handed Jack the Apollo candy bar, they very slightly touch hands. It's a bit harder to catch then the others, but you see their pointer fingers brush as he hands him the candy bar. As for Sayid, this is also slightly harder to catch. Right after Nadia gets hit, he puts his hand on Sayids shoulder. The scene cuts back to Nadia, and when it cuts back to Sayid, Jacob's hand is no longer there, but it is definitly there prior to the cut.

. I think the guitar cases has significant importance to Jacob and now that Hurley has it, it's got to mean something.

I wonder if the guitar case belong to Charlie? ...and what exactly is in the guitar case?
:eek2:

So what was the significance of him visiting Ilyana and not touching her?

i wonder why did Jacob make contact with this special bunch of people ... why them?
i hope to see the answer in season 06.

Yes, excellent question. Was it just serendipitous that Jacob chose these jamokes, or was there a reason? Not that it makes much of a difference either other than than things that happen deliberately (especially in story telling) are much different conceptually than things that "just happen" (as in Rummy's classic apologia "in war stuff happens". The fact is many of the O6 (and others) are interconnected throughout their lives, but what is the essence of their "interconnectedness".

So what was the significance of him visiting Ilyana and not touching her?
Lots of strangeness surrounding Illana. She seemed to already know who he is and was willing to help with whatever his unspoken issue was. We don't know why she was in the hospital.

As to the touches and protection et al. I've been pondering the before crash and after crash touches. Now that you guys bring this up...

Kate, Sawyer, Jack touched prior to 815 crash and they are present at the Swan's incident.

Hurley, Sayid touched post crash, and they are at the van, not the Swan as the incident occurs.

And Locke is in the future.

Sun/Jin touched prior to crash and they are separated.

So, nevermind, there's no consistency...thought I had something there....

So what was the significance of him visiting Ilyana and not touching her?

That wasn't Llyana first meeting with Jacob, so he might have touch her once before .

I think all those losties who have been touched by Jacob will retain a form of memory of all that has happened so far in this particular 'game cycle', after the RESET triggered by the nuke countering the 'Incident.' However, even though there might be a reset to 2004, the island will not appear as it was THIS time round, but will be as though the incident and by extension Flight 815 never happened. I can envisage that the touched losties would still make it to the island - for very different reasons - and yet share strange visions, dreams, due to Jacob's touch - his own insurance policy, should Esau prove victorious which is currently the case. I woudn't be to surprised if there are variables such as Des and Juliet who also retain some 'sense' of this cycle of Jacob/Esau's game.

This one is obvious: The people Jacob touches are somehow marked as the "good people" referenced by both Ben (Season 2, 3) and these new guys (Alana, etc).

1) The Others collect lists of newcomers names (Goodwin, Ethan, Mikhail) to give to the Leader and Alpert who then give it to Jacob.

2) Season 2/3 Kate, Jack, Sawyer and Hurley are brought to The Others by Michael, but Hurley gets sent back because he's not on the list/a good person/touched by Jacob. Presumably the Others had Sun (Juliet's attention) and Jin as targets for another kidnapping. Locke is already special/a candidate/resurected/has a connection with the island (walking, crazy talk) and was injured during the kidnapping, but is presumably a target for capture as well.

3) These people get off the island, whatever.

4) Sawyer and Hurley get touched by Jacob post-island. They have been deemed good people.

5) All but Aaron (not touched) make it back to the Island, along with a bunch of other "good guys," including Alana.

6) The Captain is marked in some way Alana recognizes. Perhaps in a way similar to Locke.

Sun cheated on Jin; she broke her vows.

I know, which is why I included it in the list of the broken promises ;) I just wonder what incidence it will have. Only Sawyer, Kate and Sun & Jin have been shown making promises we know they later broke, but it can't just be a coincidence nor can it be meaningless. So why these four, and what's the meaning of it. Since Jack is trying to change the future, maybe it has something to do with Jacob subsequently correcting timelines, indeed.

All of them were meant to be on 815. Were meant to be on that island.

He touched Kate's nose, Jack's finger, Sun and Jin's shoulders, Locke's shoulder (brought him back to life!), Sawyer's hand, Sayid' something (don't remember). Anyone else?

Note that we saw Juliet as a kid, but no Jacob in that FB.

ETA: Hurley's arm.

We didn't see him with Miles in the past. For the record, we also didn't get to see him with CLAIRE. Or Rose and Bernard. And the others who have died, of course...

He touched the characters you mentioned, and he also helped them along towards something evil in their lives! In other words, Jacob appeared to be good, at first, but after watching it again, I have to say, Jacob scares me! He might be the DEVIL or a DEVIL-LIKE being?! If not for Jacob, Kate might have never killed! If not for Jacob, Sawyer might of never became Sawyer! If not for Jacob, Nadia might still be alive and Sayid might never of went on that killing rampage! If not for Jacob, Sun and Jin might never of been seperated!?

Sun and Jin might never of been seperated!?

How did Jacob telling them their love was something special cause Sun to cheat on her husband? Or cause Sun to decide she was going to leave her husband for America?

How do we even know that what we saw in the flashbacks had happened the first time around? Maybe everything that we know Kate, Sawyer, Sun, etc. went on to do was BEFORE Jacob visited them and his visits were an attempt to keep what already happened from happening. Remember, he told Kate NOT to steal. He told Sun and Jin NOT to take their love for granted.

And he left Hurley with the guitar case.

Jacob was pointing them in a direction but he gave them "free-will"...
He believes the good in humanity but gave each of the Losties "a little push".

I suppose, it could also have been a test... To see if they were "candidates" for the Island and/or his "experiment" to prove to black shirt guy that humans can be redeemed.

Dang Merch, it was you that crashed the server with these long posts! ;)
Jacob, knowing what Esau might do and Esau getting caught up in "his plan" reminds me of Dumbledore and Voldemort in the HP series. When Voldemort used Harry's blood to create his new body, he thought it would make him extra powerful, yet that little detail is what actually led to his downfall. Seems like Lost may take a page out of the Harry Potter books!
Todd you might be onto something here but think about it a little more.

Did Jacob give each one of them a part of himself? Like Voldemort split himself then put those parts of himself into the horcruxes.


Sun and Jin,he did give them a blessing....he blessed their love and their marriage and he touched both of them telling them never to take their marriage fore granted.
Sawyer - Has to let go of his anger and keep in mind,what's done is done.
Young Sawyer is given a choice by Jacob....he chooses to use the pen and basically writes his own life/identity as a man who spends his life full of anger and seeking revenge,
Kate - Has to stop trying to evade her mistakes and take responsibility for her own actions. And she needs to stop looking to men to bail her out.
Sun/Jin - Need to realize what they have is special and not take it for granted.
Sayid - ?
Jack - Needs to stop with needing control and not believing....he needs a push towards believing?
Hurley - Needs to realize he is not cursed and can make choices.
Locke - He needs to have faith???
When all of them come together again they will be like one and have the ability to overcome Notlocke.

or

Those parts of Jacob will be restored to Jacob making him live again?

or

Did Jacob take something from each one of them and put them into something and that something is what is in the guitar case?
Sun and Jin the bond that will keep them together
Sawyer the ability for forgiveness.
Kate faithfulness
Sayid hope for a life in can be proud of
Jack belief in himself
Hurley believing he is not cursed
Locke acceptance
When all of them come together those parts of them will be restored and give them the abiltity to overcome Notlocke.

I'm sure there is someone who can word this much better than I did. Too far fetched?

I know, I'm getting the feeling we were shown Jacob choosing the kids for the 815 flight and the adults for the 316 flight.
Kate and Sawyer were the only two children Jin, Sun, Jack and Locke were all adults when Jacob visited them before 815.
Sayid and Hurley were the only two visited by Jacob after 815 but before 316.

Holy Crackers!

From "This Place is Death" where Locke is under the Orchid talking to "Christian."

"CHRISTIAN: Good. Now, on the other side of this column here is a wheel, slipped off its axis. All you have to do is give it a little push. "

This is VERY similar to when Jacob visits Jack and hands him the candy bar saying "Maybe all it needed was a little push."

I'm not sure exactly how this all fits in yet, but it's interesting to think about!

Todd you might be onto something here but think about it a little more.

Did Jacob give each one of them a part of himself? Like Voldemort split himself then put those parts of himself into the horcruxes.


When all of them come together again they will be like one and have the ability to overcome Notlocke.

or

Those parts of Jacob will be restored to Jacob making him live again?

or

Did Jacob take something from each one of them and put them into something and that something is what is in the guitar case?
Sun and Jin the bond that will keep them together
Sawyer the ability for forgiveness.
Kate faithfulness
Sayid hope for a life in can be proud of
Jack belief in himself
Hurley believing he is not cursed
Locke acceptance
When all of them come together those parts of them will be restored and give them the abiltity to overcome Notlocke.

I'm sure there is someone who can word this much better than I did. Too far fetched?


Kate and Sawyer were the only two children Jin, Sun, Jack and Locke were all adults when Jacob visited them before 815.
Sayid and Hurley were the only two visited by Jacob after 815 but before 316.

Hmmmm, nice thinking NBC, I like the idea that all the Losties coming together would give them the power to overcome NotLocke, but I think they need to do it in a non violent way, to prove Jacob right. At first I thought it's too bad there are eight of them, because they don't parallel the "powerfully, magical" number of 7, but then I remembered that there weren't 7 pieces of Voldemort's soul, but 8, because of the piece that went into Harry! It does seem to fit, but I don't know if the writers would think like this.;)

I also think there is a way that Jacob could live, and I posted it on another thread, but I'll copy it over here.


However, back to the parallels with Harry Potter. All that Esau was concerned with was getting someone else to kill Jacob, he wasn't too concerned with who did it, but he thought he could easily manipulate Ben into killing Jacob because of Ben's life on the Island (like Voldemort with using Harry's blood to create his body). This however, was the flaw in his plan or the flaw in his "loophole". I think there is some quality about Ben, whereby, he can't kill Jacob. Maybe it's because he was once a leader of the Island, actually had love in his heart for Alex, or because he turned the FDW and left the Island and returned to the Island, something that supposedly hadn't been done before. But I think there's something about Ben that won't allow him to kill/destroy Jacob. Jacob of course knew this. I agree that Jacob was sad for that entire scene, but I think it was more because he knew he wasn't going to be able to "save" Ben, Ben was always going to be proof fo what Esau had said about humanity always choosing violence.

Another nice little tie in to HP was Jacob being thrown in the fire. There was Fawkes, the phoenix, in the Harry Potter books that would die from turning to fire, and then rise again from the ashes. I also think this may happen with Jacob.

Hmmmm, nice thinking NBC, I like the idea that all the Losties coming together would give them the power to overcome NotLocke, but I think they need to do it in a non violent way, to prove Jacob right. At first I thought it's too bad there are eight of them, because they don't parallel the "powerfully, magical" number of 7, but then I remembered that there weren't 7 pieces of Voldemort's soul, but 8, because of the piece that went into Harry! It does seem to fit, but I don't know if the writers would think like this.;)

I also think there is a way that Jacob could live, and I posted it on another thread, but I'll copy it over here.
I do agree that the Phoenix does seem to work. I thought that one of the birds in the glyphs on the Temple wall looked like it was a phoenix.
Could Sun and Jin be considered one, because Jacob did touch them at the same time not separately, and Ben is the eighth because Jacob gave him a part of himself when he kept him from dying?

Touched by an angel?

It seems to me that both Jacob and Esau are operating under the rules which usually govern both angels and demons...persuasion is permitted, but in the end, the mortal's action must be of his/her own accord. Their methods, however, may help us make the distinction. Jacob has chosen to use a gentle nudge, in the form of encouraging words and a light touch. Esau/Smokey, on the other hand, seems to rely on coercion and deception.

I do agree that the Phoenix does seem to work. I thought that one of the birds in the glyphs on the Temple wall looked like it was a phoenix.
Could Sun and Jin be considered one, because Jacob did touch them at the same time not separately, and Ben is the eighth because Jacob gave him a part of himself when he kept him from dying?

There was what appeared to be a person with wings on the wall in Jacob's room below the statue when Jacob was making the tapestry. I'm not sure what the history of the phoenix is, but was it ever considered to be part man/part bird at one time? If so, that could also tie in.

When I was trying to fit all the Losties into a group of 7, I thought maybe Sun and Jin could be considered one, so if Ben is to be thrown into the mix, it could work with the group of 8. This could have been why Jacob seemed so sad, because he was hoping that Ben would look past his jealousy and revenge and prove him right that humanity doesn't resort to violence, especially since Jacob healed Ben in the Temple. Ben may come around to see what he did was wrong, after he's let in on the long con by Richard and work alongside the Losties in the defeat of Esau. That could be Ben's redemption.

Remember when Kate and Sawyer took young ben to the Others?

RICHARD: You asked my people to bring you to me. Here I am. [Sees Ben in Sawyer's arms.] Is that Benjamin Linus?
SAWYER: You two know each other?
RICHARD: What happened to him?
KATE: He was shot.
RICHARD: And who might you be?
SAWYER: She's with me.
RICHARD: And why are you here?
KATE: 'Cause we need you to save his life. Can you?
RICHARD: If I take him, he's not ever gonna be the same again.
KATE: What do you mean by that?
RICHARD: What I mean is that, he'll forget this ever happened, and that...his innocence will be gone. He will always be one of us. You still want me to take him?
KATE: Yes.
[Richard takes Ben from Sawyer.]
MAN: [Steps forward] Richard...You shouldn't do this without asking Ellie. And if Charles finds out--
RICHARD: Let him find out. I don't answer to either of them
KATE: Where are you taking him? [Steps forward to follow Richard.]
SAWYER: [Grabbing Kate's arm, whispers] Come on.
[Richard carries Ben into the jungle. He comes up to a stone structure and looks down at Ben before pushing back into the wall, making it open. He carries Ben inside.]

I wonder if this ties in with this.

I like the HP references esp. since little Ben looked like Harry Potter! : )
And I do agree that Jacob will rise again just like the Phoenix.

NBC, That's great about them all needing to come together to beat Esau. Many times I have thought throughout Lost that they are like interlocking pieces of puzzle and they all fit together to save mankind and the Island.

Also, Jacob was reading "That which Rises Must Converge"...the Title suggests they all rise and come together as a single force.


But about the 8, I don't think we can count Locke now cuz he's dead. : (

But about the 8, I don't think we can count Locke now cuz he's dead. : (

Well so was Harry, and he was given a choice to come back and he chose to return and help fight, and led to the defeat of Voldemort. I wouldn't count Locke out yet.;)

The phoenix, or phœnix as it is sometimes spelled, has been an enduring mythological (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Myth) symbol.Despite such varieties of societies and times, the phoenix is consistently characterized as a bird with brightly colored plumage, which, after a long life, dies in a fire of its own making only to rise again from the ashes. From religious (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Religion) and naturalistic symbolism in ancient Egypt (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Ancient_Egypt), to a secular symbol for armies, communities, and even societies, as well as an often-used literary symbol, this mythical bird's representation of death and rebirth seems to resonate with humankind's aspirations......



Indeed it fits very well with the themes throughout Lost. Jacob may just rise but as someone else!!!!

Ben??? Was that the plan since Jacob healed young Ben?


FYI,In Egyptian mythology,the Phoenix was represented by a Bennu bird! ;)
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Well so was Harry, and he was given a choice to come back and he chose to return and help fight, and led to the defeat of Voldemort. I wouldn't count Locke out yet.;)
Guess I need to brush up on my Harry Potter. ;)

FYI,In Egyptian mythology,the Phoenix was represented by a Bennu bird! ;)

A-ha!! So the Hurley bird has a name.

A-ha!! So the Hurley bird has a name.
LOL!

But ya know,maybe it was a form of Jacob,seriously.

There was what appeared to be a person with wings on the wall in Jacob's room below the statue when Jacob was making the tapestry. I'm not sure what the history of the phoenix is, but was it ever considered to be part man/part bird at one time? If so, that could also tie in.

The faded image is that of Isis, in fact this image of her (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:%C3%84gyptischer_Maler_um_1360_v._Chr._001.jp g) is literally the exact same on Jacobs wall.

Isis would be the egyptian equivalent of The Virgin Mary only much more godlike from the get-go. With regards the talk of egyptian birds, Walt mentions it in S1s Special when he says "We should be researching egyptian birds".

Horus, as the son of Isis is represented by the falcon image and as in Jacobs Tapestry is represented by the eye of Horus at the top within the sun. The outstretched wings are a symbol of his protection and as the story goes, Isis hid Horus on an Island when Set killed his father Osiris to protect him until he was of age.

Horus battles Set daily and although translations and stories vary over thousands of years it was not only for revenge of Set killing his father but also for dominance and power over lower and upper egypt.

I personally relate the color green to Jacob whom I am working on the theory that he may represent Horus. If you notice the eye in the tapestry is colored green, it is the left eye which definitely is Horus (the right eye is considered the Sun or Eye of Ra and left the moon). The energy was glowing green when the FDW was off its axis and the Hurley bird very falcon like was green.

In anycase my thoughts may all be for the theory board. With regard to Jacob touching them all I find it a little more than coincedence that those he touched as children are still very much alive so far. Maybe the touching of the children passed on an immunity to course correction or something that put their fate outside of being determined. I think more were "touched" which made their destinies "blurry" as Claires psychic put it when he considered something bad.

Thanks for posting that dylan. I hadn't seen an explanation for what that image was before in any of the threads I had gone into. It definitely doesn't provide a tie in to a phoneix then.:ohwell:

Thanks for posting that dylan. I hadn't seen an explanation for what that image was before in any of the threads I had gone into. It definitely doesn't provide a tie in to a phoneix then.:ohwell:

No probs :biggrin:

She is primarily considered the Goddess of Motherhood and fertility. Shes as high up on the pantheon as a God could get and ressurection much like what the phoenix is associated with isnt past her prowess. She was known for bringing Osiris back to life after Set killed him. I certainly wouldnt put the phoenixs abilities past her in anycase.:)

How did Jacob telling them their love was something special cause Sun to cheat on her husband? Or cause Sun to decide she was going to leave her husband for America?

How do we even know that what we saw in the flashbacks had happened the first time around? Maybe everything that we know Kate, Sawyer, Sun, etc. went on to do was BEFORE Jacob visited them and his visits were an attempt to keep what already happened from happening. Remember, he told Kate NOT to steal. He told Sun and Jin NOT to take their love for granted.

Like Addictedfan says below, I think there's a free will element that can't be over looked.

It is though Sun's love for Jin that prompts her to go back to the island. Even leaving their daughter behind to do so. I don't know if I would consider that not taking love for granted, but it does suggest about how strongly Sun still feels for the guy, even after all the cheating and problems they had.

Jacob was pointing them in a direction but he gave them "free-will"...
He believes the good in humanity but gave each of the Losties "a little push".


Exactly. Jacob's not messing with Free will, even his adversary isn't messing with free will. Jacob's trying to help people though, (at least from what we've seen) and his adversary/Esau is trying to manipulate a person's will towards his own ends.

Well so was Harry, and he was given a choice to come back and he chose to return and help fight, and led to the defeat of Voldemort. I wouldn't count Locke out yet.;)

It is an interesting idea that Jacob may be alive in each of the losties he touched, and that he may rise again.

What I find interesting is one touch in particular and it hasn't gotten legs in this thread since I last posted on page ten.

Jacob touched Locke and brought him back to life. That's how that scene played for me. Locke didn't survive the eight story fall. He died. Jacob brought him back to life. It also makes me think that Ben, passing messages along to Jacob via Richard, did indeed have Juliet's sister healed by Jacob.

Back to the point. I think Jacob's touch brought Locke back to life. We haven't seen any of the other characters die. I wonder if this means that each Lostie who was touched is intitled to, or has it within them because of the touch, to be brought back to life? Or survive some death defying odds. Oh, I don't know, like being at ground zero for a nuclear bomb detonation.

Being able to survive that because of Jacob's touch, maybe that allows them to ride some kind of electromagnetic wave from the Swan site forward in time. I think the seventies Losties will physically time travel one last time and that they'll end up on the island in the time frame between 2005 and 2007, potentially.

With Elizabeth Mitchell not a regular next year, but still speculated to have an unspecified number of appearances on the show, I think it's also possible that Lostie's arrive back on the island either after Desmond's failsafe detonation or during 2004 before they even left. Possibly before Desmond even crashed their plane.

I have no basis for that yet. Just a thought at this point. But it's my second scenerio I'm thinking about.

Either way, I think Jacob's touch to Locke was the most important one that we were shown. Jacob, imo, from how I read that scene, has it in him to resurrect people. We never saw him in Juliet's flashback, so even if that touch allows the Losties to cheat death once, she's still dead.

Also, and I found this interesting as well, Jacob, while dying, grabs onto Ben as he falls to the ground.

Given the fact that we saw Jacob's touch bring Locke back to life, and that it seemed to be a key moment in this core group of Lostie's lives, (again, potentially giving them a built in get out of death free card) I think it's reasonable to assume, even likely, that Ben's touch was not coincidental.

I think there's something there. Wild speculation could state that maybe Jacob passed on some knowledge to Ben on the situation in that touch. Going on what we've seen though, maybe all it does is help Ben at some later point.

I'm gonna be curious to know if TPTB will touch upon both cliff hanger endings in the premiere for next season. I'm curious to see if NotLocke is going to try and blame Jacob's death solely on Ben, if Richard or someone else eneters Jacob's place, while still trying to maintain the mantle of being real Locke. Course once he steps outside he's gonna see real locke's corpse, and then it's on like Donkey Kong.

Spoiler season needs to start early this year:cool:

Hi Merch! Glad you Resurrected this thread!!! :biggrin:

I agree with you I think he did bring Locke back to life...which kinda messes with Free-will, I think???
I too have thought that Jacob may very well rise again. I didn't even pay attention to him touching Ben as he fell! That is very significant!! Wouldn't it be wild if Jacob becomes Ben?!! Then we would have fake Locke and Fake Ben! Our poor Losties that eventually flash to 2007 aren't going to know who to believe or what to think!

Maybe that's why Sun had to be in 2007 so she could tell them what really happened.

Just like Lazarus :biggrin: Nineteen pages. I stayed off for four or five days to come back to less threads in this forum, not more. :undecide::cool:

Sun being touched and in 2007 strikes me as odd and significant. She doesn't need any special touch to survive a bomb. Jacob could have just as easily given Jin a hand shake at his wedding and a good luck, honor thy wife line.

I don't know if Jacob will become Ben, but it'd be interesting to see if Jacob's touch somehow transfers so knowledge to Ben on the situation. Or gives him some kind of clairty.

I still think Aaron, and thus Claire, or of key importance here. If we assume that CS was a manifestation or under the control of Jacob's adversary, then Aaron leaving the island was not a good thing. Claire was tricked to into leaving him, and Aaron ended up on that chopper potentially so that Jacob's heir (or even Richards) couldn't rise to a position to give more opposition to Esau/Anti-Locke. So that Aaron couldn't assume the reigns, maybe from either Jacob or Richard.

I think Eko's Bible story to Claire, about Aaron speaking for Moses, because Moses had difficulty speaking and that Aaron was a great man for this, has some significance still.

I think I'm more curious to find out what happens at the end of that Jacob cliff hanger than I am the other one, at this point. I hope spoiler season starts early. :cool:

Just like Lazarus :biggrin: Nineteen pages. I stayed off for four or five days to come back to less threads in this forum, not more. :undecide::cool:

Sun being touched and in 2007 strikes me as odd and significant. She doesn't need any special touch to survive a bomb. Jacob could have just as easily given Jin a hand shake at his wedding and a good luck, honor thy wife line.

I don't know if Jacob will become Ben, but it'd be interesting to see if Jacob's touch somehow transfers so knowledge to Ben on the situation. Or gives him some kind of clairty.

I still think Aaron, and thus Claire, or of key importance here. If we assume that CS was a manifestation or under the control of Jacob's adversary, then Aaron leaving the island was not a good thing. Claire was tricked to into leaving him, and Aaron ended up on that chopper potentially so that Jacob's heir (or even Richards) couldn't rise to a position to give more opposition to Esau/Anti-Locke. So that Aaron couldn't assume the reigns, maybe from either Jacob or Richard.

I think Eko's Bible story to Claire, about Aaron speaking for Moses, because Moses had difficulty speaking and that Aaron was a great man for this, has some significance still.

I think I'm more curious to find out what happens at the end of that Jacob cliff hanger than I am the other one, at this point. I hope spoiler season starts early. :cool:

Funny you should mention Claire and Aaron. I just started a thread about them. I agree their story isn't over!

I'm going to take a big jump here but what if Kate is pregnant with Jack's child. ..it would give some meaning to that night of wild sex pre-Flight 316.;)
In the Bible, Aaron was the older brother of Moses but Aaron was also a prophet who assisted Moses like you said. Maybe our Aaron is needed to stay safe so he can help his little brother who has yet to be born...Jate's baby becomes the new Jacob!
I know just a lot of speculation but I like it! LOL!

Kate could still be pregnant. I think just as we saw Rose and Bernard living peacefully on the island, that in the end, we'll some set, group, couple of Losties doing the same thing. Kate and Jack on island with her being pregnant, expecting child not only would lend some importance to that pre-flight romp, but would be pretty cool, imo.

I'd like to think Claire's still alive too, and that there'll be a reunion of mother and child at some point. I'd be happy to see all the Losties remain on the island, having reached that level of harmony Jacob had wanted. That would be cool.

Two comments.

If being literally touched by Jacob ends up being translated into some sort of Jacob putting a part of himself in each person so that he could be brought back later on, then right now I'm going call "been there, done that" many years ago with Joss Whedon's UberBuffy fighting Adam.

If being literally touched by Jacob ends up being translated as the explanation for why various Losties haven't died a thousand times over yet rather than just chalking up all those missed bullets and other perils to "luck" or suspension of belief for a television show, then did Rose and Bernard get touched as well?

Well, if memory serves, wasn't UberBuffy creaetd by the shared essence of her three freinds? I don't know if would be the same thing as what may happen here.

I do think Jacob's touch is the reason they've seemingly survived as much stuff as they have. Especially Kate and Sawyer, one running for the cops for that long, the other leading a criminal life for that long, and yet both paths didn't end in prison, but still managed to get them on 815.

I don't know if Rose and Bernard were touched, maybe. I'm not sure how much more we'll see them the rest of the way. They've taken the lead for me in being Adam and Eve, but I do think Jacob may have made a couple more visits.

Most notably to Claire, probably a pregnant Claire. I wouldn't be surprised if Rose and Bernard got a visit either though.

It is an interesting idea that Jacob may be alive in each of the losties he touched, and that he may rise again.
Metaphorically, yes. Jacob is/represents Faith in Man. If this group is capable of showing that man is worthy of the Faith, Esau loses.

The "rising again" literally is in IMO overplayed at this point, so I'm hoping that's not it.


Also, and I found this interesting as well, Jacob, while dying, grabs onto Ben as he falls to the ground.

Didn't catch that, but it makes sense. As angry as Ben may be at Jacob, it is true that he was always loyal to him. If Jacob has enough faith, maybe Ben will pull through for him in the end.

....

Also, and I found this interesting as well, Jacob, while dying, grabs onto Ben as he falls to the ground.

Given the fact that we saw Jacob's touch bring Locke back to life, and that it seemed to be a key moment in this core group of Lostie's lives, (again, potentially giving them a built in get out of death free card) I think it's reasonable to assume, even likely, that Ben's touch was not coincidental.

I think there's something there. Wild speculation could state that maybe Jacob passed on some knowledge to Ben on the situation in that touch. Going on what we've seen though, maybe all it does is help Ben at some later point.
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Merch, that is an absolutely great catch about Jacob falling on Ben and thus touching him. I agree that that is no coincidence.

Ben is a smart guy, and he's seen some evidence that NotLocke and Jacob know each other. I think in S6 Ben will become suspicious about NotLocke and will maybe figure out what is going on. I'm not sure the touch from Jacob gives Ben any special knowledge, but maybe it allows him to tap the better side of himself in the future -- the side he couldn't find it in himself to tap when Jacob invoked his free will. Maybe Ben will become "one of the good guys" next season, gradually. And maybe, ironically, no one will believe that for awhile, because lying "is what he does," or has done to this point.

ETA: Although I'm still not sure that NotLocke won't be unmasked right away when he emerges from the Foot to the sight of Locke's body.

Metaphorically, yes. Jacob is/represents Faith in Man. If this group is capable of showing that man is worthy of the Faith, Esau loses.

The "rising again" literally is in IMO overplayed at this point, so I'm hoping that's not it.
....


lostorfound, at this point I agree it'll probably be a symbolic reconstitution of Jacob rather than a literal one, though I'm not 100% sure.

Jacob himself may not rise again, but someone may rise to take hold his mantel. What he represents to the island. If he can be killed, than he's just a man, however long lived, however many island secrets he may know. Whatever plateau of existence he himself may have attained in his countless years on the island, I think he was probably just a regular guy once.

Which makes me think that a regular guy could take his place, as long as they're free of their past attatchments and human follies.
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mmpd, I was having trouble articulating that idea. That Jacob's touch somehow brings out the best in Ben or rather, keeps the dark, emotional side of his nature in check.

It seemed like a lot was made about Ben being a liar in the last few episodes of the season, which if he does become one of the good guys, or privy to some key info, would make him moving forward difficult. That exchange between he and Sun about the statue made me laugh when I saw it, he's finally telling the truth, we the audience can vouche for him, and he's still not believed. Even when it doesn't really matter.

I looking forward to his character arc next year. Where does he go after killing Jacob?

YouTube - I.P.F. LOST Season 6 - "Origins"

Jacob went back and touched the Losties but why did he go back to when Sawyer and Kate were children? Everyone else was an adult.

I noticed this because of the look he gives Sawyer. And he touches Kate's nose. Kind of a sign of affection?

I didn't think of it as Jacob "going back." I was thinking of Jacob's timeline as linear, without a lot of time travel. Or any? I'm not sure.

I thought maybe he knew right away that Sawyer and Kate were special to the island in some way, but it took him a bit longer to decide that with Jack, John, Sun, and Jin.

My primary question is, why did he touch Hurley and Sayid after they returned from the island the first time around?

I didn't think of it as Jacob "going back." I was thinking of Jacob's timeline as linear, without a lot of time travel. Or any? I'm not sure.

I thought maybe he knew right away that Sawyer and Kate were special to the island in some way, but it took him a bit longer to decide that with Jack, John, Sun, and Jin.

My primary question is, why did he touch Hurley and Sayid after they returned from the island the first time around?

I think he decided to meet them at critical points in their lives and with some (Sawyer, Locke, Sayid) the timing is more obvious than others.

But what does the touching mean? I mean, he touched Locke and saved him at that time, but now Locke is dead.

OK, we have been shown that Jacob is ....well, we really don't know what Jacob or the MIB really is. They are extraordinary beings. Why would Jacob know about our off the Island LOSTies or care about them, unless, he knew they were going to play a part that was going to effect the Island in the future? Even if there was no time travel, how or why would he know that these were important mile stones in these peoples lives?

I have mentioned elsewhere that if you search old transcripts,there is a lot of early talk about touching. It usually isn't considered a good thing. No one wants anyone to touch Kate. Jack doesn't want Juliet to touch Ben. Sayid (I think this was in flashback) says something like he would never touch a woman. Kate says that Wayne never touched her. If we look at these instances, everyone seems to be afraid of being touched or touching, like it is a negative thing.

Jacob's touch may or may not be a negative thing, but it seems like "touching" is being universally recognized, even in early dialogue, as something very powerful. Why is Jacob so careful not to touch Ilana--to the point of even wearing gloves? Is it because he would take something from her, and he doesn't want to do that? Or because he would give something to her, and he doesn't want to do that?

I was curious to know what the timeline everyone things is for Jacob touching the losties is.... is it a flashback for Jacob? I mean its probably obvious and i am missing it but I wonder where in the timeline it is for Jacob?

I think it's flashback. It might be correct to say that "The Incident" is a Jacob-centric ep, as far as flashbacks.

Why would Jacob know about our off the Island LOSTies or care about them, unless, he knew they were going to play a part that was going to effect the Island in the future?

Jacob knew about the people he touched because he ALREADY witnessed them them on the Island...1954, 1974-77.....Same way Ms. H knew about Des, Dan etc.

I'm pretty sure that was the major point of S5. These people were brought to the Island because they had to be because they always had.

We wondered for a long time why Richard visited Locke when he was born and again when he was younger. The answer turned out to be because Richard had known Locke since 1954...before he was even born....Same with Jacob.

Still, I don't know what exactly "the touch" does for those who recieved it.

Nice video Sam. Good find.

OK, we have been shown that Jacob is ....well, we really don't know what Jacob or the MIB really is. They are extraordinary beings. Why would Jacob know about our off the Island LOSTies or care about them, unless, he knew they were going to play a part that was going to effect the Island in the future? Even if there was no time travel, how or why would he know that these were important mile stones in these peoples lives?

Like Lostorfound says, Jacob knew of Sawyer and Kate via Richard. Richards conversation with Locke in '54 and subsequent disappearance and Sawyers convo with him on the bench in '74 about Locke had to put Sawyer (and the rest of the island 70s losties) on Richard's report to Jacob.

For story purposes Jacob chose only to touch Sawyer out of that seventies group. We can speculate he atleast started keeping tabs on them all and chose Sawyer. For story purposes it doesn't work for the writers having Jacob high fiving all of them.

As for Kate. Seeing as she was picking up a New Kids On The Block lunch box puts her time frame to atleast the mid-eighties. Maybe even late eigties. I think she becomes a person of interest because of Sawyer saying she's with him when they drop Ben off to Richard.

Richard has to know, up until that point, who Sawyer's posse is. Kate wasn't apart of that posse. Now all of a sudden James is in the woods, with Ben, asking the others to work their mumbo jumbo on him, and Kates with him. By deduction (my own;)) I think Richard would ask himself, what would make James trust this lady so much?

Rich knows Sawyer isn't a salvage boat captain, or that sawyers gang is his crew.

Seeing Sawyer go out on a limb and say, hey, she's with me, when to that point the seventies Losties have built a foundation in Dharma on a lie, would make me curious as to any new faces within that inner circle. If I were Richard. He then passes that info along to Jacob.

Why he chooses her, other than because the writers need it to be so, is beyond me. Why he visits her and James as kids, (after coming to whatever reasoning Jacob has to determine he needs them) is tough to call with out knowing what his touch does.

If we think it's a helpful thing, maybe he knew they would need a bit more of a "divine touch" (read magical there if that's bordering too religious for you:cool:) to get through their lives. Perhaps he's not so much omniscient as he is intuitive. Going with Jacob's gut feeling may be akin to taking a best guess from half human Spock, to put it another way.

That Jack, and Sayid and Hurley were visited as adults suggested to me at the time that they didn't need that extra helping hand. Though I think in Sayid's case, Jacob wasn't helping the man as much as he was helping a set of circumstances. Sayid needed to be in a place emotionally, where he could shoot a ten year old kid, because Jacob, in his linear timeline (imo) had already known those events with young Ben to pass.

That Hurley was the only one Jacob mentioned the island too makes me think Jack may be the catalyst for next year, but Hurley's going to have a pivotal role in the final events.

Jacob again could have been informed about Jack and Sayid by Richard. He could have taken to following their life paths from '77 as well. Perhaps in deducing Sayid shot Ben, or knowing it from some other means, he knew that Sayid wasn't going to need a visit as a kid.

With Jack, and his dad issues and inner turmoil, Jake could have just been picking the best moment. I can think of a couple better, but again, Jacob's intuition is stronger than the average persons imo.

As far as I can recall, Hurley has never met Richard. Richard wasn't on the dock. They didn't show any kind of exchange when Ben told Kate she could take the chopper. 'Course, Hurley was with Sawyer watching Jack and Locke argue in the greenhouse, so he wasn't even with Kate and Sayid and the others.

The only instance Hurley has come into contact with Jacob, potentially, is when he stumbled onto the cabin. We see CS in their and an as of yet unidentified man. That's the only time I can think of where Hurley's path crosses the path of the others/island/richard whatever. There's nothing before that to suggest that he's special or relevent to future events. Stumbling on the cabin seemed to have stumbled him right into view of Jacob. Or whatever island powers there are that Jacob and Jacob's buddy either tap into or have innately.


Still, I don't know what exactly "the touch" does for those who recieved it.

THat is the 64'000 dollar question.
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ETA: Although I'm still not sure that NotLocke won't be unmasked right away when he emerges from the Foot to the sight of Locke's body.



This is my prediction/assumption/whatever :biggrin:. Probably been stated elsewhere, but this is me on the record.

I think the moment that Ben and NotLocke come out Jacob's foot is much closer to the end of the series, time wise for the losties, than some might think. I think when Damon and Carlton say that about a third of the way through the season the Losties re-unite that it's going to be at that moment. And that the lead up to that moment is mostly going to chronicle Jack and the gang, and potentially even some off island arcs like Desmond and Widmore and Hawking.

I can see the end of the series taking place a day or two after whatever confrontation happens on the beach when Ben and unLocke come out. I think the pace of the show this past season, where everything current happened within a week practically (three years later sign not withstanding) is just going to accelerate next year.

I think the reintroduction of claire, what happened to the losties in 70s after the detonation and off island manuevering from widmore and Des is what's going to fill the beginning part of the season. Until the moment all those things draw together. Which, imo, will happen on the beach.

I think wherever Jack and company end up that it's going to be at a point before Jacob's declaration of "they're coming". I don't think they're just going to appear on the beach in a flash. I see them arriving on the island at some point during the others trek to Jacob. Jack and Co have to jump through some hoops and gain their bearings, formulate a plan or have the plan finally told to them before they can arrive as the cavalry, imo.

That point could be a couple days before the furthest time point we've seen. Jacob dying, Sun and others on the beach with Locke's dead body. Or it could be as much as three years, where we see Jack and Company either on island during the time of 815's crash or even during that period between when the flashing stopped and when 316 crashed.

And another long off season to wait before we can see either way.

NBC,

Thanks for posting regarding whether or not Jacob touched Sayid. I tried to reply to the other thread but it's now closed. ?

When I watched the scene where Jacob asks Sayid for help with directions I couldn't actually see Jacob touching him. Thanks for clarifying.
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YouTube - I.P.F. LOST Season 6 - "Origins" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVMZGYJFpxE)

Jacob went back and touched the Losties but why did he go back to when Sawyer and Kate were children? Everyone else was an adult.

I noticed this because of the look he gives Sawyer. And he touches Kate's nose. Kind of a sign of affection?

At first I didn't think it mattered how old they were when Jacob touched them. Perhaps Jacob knew that Sawyer and Kate would hook up on the island. IDK Just a wild guess. ;)

A more rational explanation would be that Jacob touched them at pivotal moments in their lives.

I agree Sam..because if you think of all the others that he touched it was also at pivotal moments in their lives. Although Iliana seems out of place in the mix....

I may be wrong but I don't think Jacob touched Ilana when he went to visit her. I can't find any screencap of him doing so, but if someone can find one please post it.

Yeah I just saw something that said it was unclear that he did touch her...and I could never find a screencap either.

We never saw Jacob touch Ilana.

I think the difference with Illana is that she's supposed to help him while he's supposed to help the ones he touched, no?
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I thought maybe he knew right away that Sawyer and Kate were special to the island in some way, but it took him a bit longer to decide that with Jack, John, Sun, and Jin.

Reading your post makes me think that Kate and Sawyer are responsible for the explosion of the bomb...Jack wanted to erase everything because of Kate (and even more ...it wen wrong when he saw that kate kept his promise to Sawyer and didn't want to share it with him) and idem for Juliet...she wanted to erase everything because of the look Sawyer gave to Kate in the finale....so maybe Jacob wants Kate to be good and not kill his father and Sawyer to be bad by giving him a pencil to write his letter and become Sawyer etc... later. I mean maybe jacob wants to prevent Kate & Sawyer to fall in love in order to prevent the incident???

My primary question is, why did he touch Hurley and Sayid after they returned from the island the first time around?

Actually what bugs me is: is he responsible for Sayid staying alive or for Nadia being dead???

We never saw Jacob touch Ilana.

No sir. THough in the re-airing of last years finale the other night, it does look like Jacob could have touched her, just off screen. He leaned towards her bed, and while not shown, may have gave her hand a squeeze.

Again, that's just how the unshown sequence could have played out. There was a lean in by Jacob.

Why she was needed by Jacob is going to be a curious reveal.

______________________

As far as primary questions go; I think in regards to Sayid, at least, that Jacob touched him after he returned and was experiencing some kind of happiness off island was because he needed Sayid to be angry enough, empty enough, to end up Ben's assassin.

I think Jacob's plan piggy backs on the man in blacks, and that in order for Jacob to get an edge on his counter part, Jake needed to aide MiB's plan. Jacob essentially saves Sayid, he loses Nadia, Ben comes along to tell him that Widmore had her killed (true or false? We don't know definitively), Sayid goes on kill crazy hit man phase and then one day Ben says, okay we're done. Go back to your normal life.

When Sayid ends up back on the island with a chance to kill young Ben, he's trying to prevent the perversion of his own future life, imo. All this plays into the man in blacks hands because young Ben is taken to the Temple, he's healed, he loses his innocence and becomes a bitter adult. The seeds of Ben's future manipulation by MiB are planted in what Sayid did to him in the seventies I think.

Jacob needs all this to happen, so that he can count on the man in black to make certain moves. MiB makes those moves, things play out to his favor, but really Jacob's been counting on those moves too, and has his own counterplan in action.

Potentially.

As to why Hurley was touched so late, I got nothing for. :biggrin: Should prove important, I would guess. Considering Hurley can talk to dead people.

I may be wrong but I don't think Jacob touched Ilana when he went to visit her. I can't find any screencap of him doing so, but if someone can find one please post it.

Thanks for trying to find a screen cap. Jacob did lean towards Ilana when he asked for her help but it's unclear if he actually touched her. I can't recall, but did Jacob take his gloves off when he sat down next to Ilana's hospital bed?

Even if Jacob didn't touch Ilana they have a special connection which we have yet to learn...sister, or relative?

Ex-Girlfriend? :eek2:;)

Ex-Girlfriend? :eek2:;)

:rolleyes::biggrin: I actually thought of that one, too. That might be a little too shallow for the mythology regarding Jacob, which we really don't know anything about yet.

Oh but the answers are a' comin' :)

Less than an hour til tip off on the lead in to the premier.

We might not get big answers on the Jacob ilana connection in the first two hours, but they are coming.

Train's set to leave the station. Gonna be a helluva good ride.