The Loophole to what?

Is The Loophole an exception to the rule that the the guy from the beginning who is not Jacob (tgftbwinj) can't kill Jacob unless he gets someone else to do it?

Or only the leader can kill Jacob? Maybe Ben is still the real leader, and fake Locke just had everyone thinking he is the leader?

Reminds me of what Ben said to Widmore, when Widmore asked if Ben was there to kill him - "You know I can't do that, Charles."

The Loophole to what?

Is The Loophole an exception to the rule that the the guy from the beginning who is not Jacob (tgftbwinj) can't kill Jacob unless he gets someone else to do it?

Or only the leader can kill Jacob? Maybe Ben is still the real leader, and fake Locke just had everyone thinking he is the leader?

I think it's definitely the first and possibly both reasons. I really need to rewatch to listen to that conversation on the beach again. But since I had the TV for 3 hours, my daughter needed to watch NOGGIN for awhile.....<sigh>:rolleyes:

We've seen these "rules" in action before-between Widmore and Ben. Neither was supposed to harm the other person or their family. Of course, that didn't stop Widmore's goon Keamy from making a CHOICE and killing Alex, but that was his personal choice, and I think that's the key here. Ben was given a choice by Jacob: Be a killer, or walk away. He chose (under a certain amount of manipulation) to stab Jacob,

Reminds me of what Ben said to Widmore, when Widmore asked if Ben was there to kill him - "You know I can't do that, Charles."
Ben and Widmore. Jacob and Not Jacob. And some strange rule or force the prevents one from killing the other?

Killing by proxy....

is it what is ALLOWED or what is POSSIBLE?

And yet Jacob almost goaded Ben to kill him. All Ben needed was answers to his questions. And all he got was a snarky Ben-like reply - "What about you?"

"They're coming..." Is that Jacob indicating that our Losties are going back to the future?

Clearly, 19th century Fish Man and Resurrected Locke were both Smoky. Smoky is certainly capable of killing any living person at will. Yet when Ben stabbed Jacob, he died (I think) just like any mortal would. Does Ben have a unique power? That would explain why Jacob was so coy about revealing himself to Ben over the years. Or is Jacob vulnerable to any mortal that Smoky could trick into doing the deed for him?

And yet Jacob almost goaded Ben to kill him. All Ben needed was answers to his questions. And all he got was a snarky Ben-like reply - "What about you?"

"They're coming..." Is that Jacob indicating that our Losties are going back to the future?


I disagree about the "goading" ...what Jacob said was true...it is not ABOUT him...he told him the truth..that he had free will and did not have to do it.

Clearly, 19th century Fish Man and Resurrected Locke were both Smoky. Smoky is certainly capable of killing any living person at will. Yet when Ben stabbed Jacob, he died (I think) just like any mortal would. Does Ben have a unique power? That would explain why Jacob was so coy about revealing himself to Ben over the years. Or is Jacob vulnerable to any mortal that Smoky could trick into doing the deed for him?

Jacob could very well be like Richard. Which could be the reason why he was living in the temple. Ben might have been the only person who could kill Jacob, since he is the only person we know who been reborn in the temple.


Originally Posted by LilMissRabbit
Reminds me of what Ben said to Widmore, when Widmore asked if Ben was there to kill him - "You know I can't do that, Charles."

It also reminds me of what Charles Widmore said to Locke. He told Locke that he must go back , or the wrong side will win. Who exactly is the wrong side?

Has Ben been given the role of Judas?

I was really expecting Evil Locke to all of a sudden start talking in a British accent and reveal himself to actually be Charles Widmore.

Reminds me of what Ben said to Widmore, when Widmore asked if Ben was there to kill him - "You know I can't do that, Charles."
Thats exactly what i was thinking, the guy couldn't kill jacob because of the same reason ben couldn;t kill charles, it was frustrating how we didn;t learn his name, i think the writers did that on purpose

And yet Jacob almost goaded Ben to kill him. All Ben needed was answers to his questions. And all he got was a snarky Ben-like reply - "What about you?"

"They're coming..." Is that Jacob indicating that our Losties are going back to the future?
You are correct. It really seemed like Jacob was trying to irritate Ben knowing it would cause Ben to kill him. It was like Jacob wanted to die.

And yet Jacob almost goaded Ben to kill him.

I thought that as well. It is like it is all part of the plan. Jacob didn't put up much of a defense. I also thought it was interesting that Jacob was pushed into the fire after being stabbed. A funeral pyre like ending to Jacob. If it is an ending for Jacob. Will we see Jacob be Jacob resurrected in three days?

So does this keep translating down? Will we reach a point where Jack and Locke won't be able to kill each other?

When "Esau/Moses/Locke2" said he wanted to kill Jacob, he also said, "We'll find a loophole." I got the impression there was a group of people on the island from which Esau/Moses had come and to which he would go back after his talk with Jacob about the coming of the ship. Did anyone else think this?

There also seemed to be a hierarchy of power. Jacob brings the ship. How does he accomplish this? By will alone? Or does he have to get people to take what he offers them....
Kate-lunchbox; Sun and Jin-good blessings; Locke-life; Hurley-advice; Sawyer-pen; Jack-Apollo bar.

And who is Ilana? Jacob asks her to do something. He could have asked her to get Sayid back to the Island, or to watch John Locke. Or does she bring Locke's body to him because Jacob asks her to?

There is definitely some sort of rule...from Richard's Book of Laws?... about killing.

I'm still trying to figure out the debate between them... Jacob brings another group of people to the Island to prove Esau/Moses/Locke2 wrong that it [the civilization they create?] always ends with corruption and destruction? Jacob comments that it [the world] only ends once and everything up til then is progress. How does this relate to the loophole Esau/Moses/Locke2 is looking for and obviously finds?

Everyone has pointed out the similarities with this scene and the Ben-Widmore "you changed the rules" scene. A loophole in the law. Locke2 found a way around one of the rules.

Jacob doesn't represent good; he represents free will. The other guy represents destiny.

I like how the Jacob/Esau conversation about not being able to kill each other mirrors the Ben/Widmore one, but I'm curious to see if it at all relates to Ben saying he lied all along about seeing Jacob. I wonder if Widmore, being leader, was able to see Jacob, only to have Ben make up an elaborate lie to usurp his power, and lead everyone to believe that Widmore was the liar. It would make sense that the person able to speak to Jacob would be under some sort of protection, hence Widmore thinking he can't kill Ben.

Just a thought.

Me and my friend were jus talking and realized....What if Ben stabbing Jacob didnt kill him and "Locke" kicking him into the fire did? Isnt that breaking the rules?

We don't really know what, if any rules, there are. All we know is that there needed to be some sort of loophole so Esau could kill Jacob. We don't why or what that loophole really is.

Why did the Locke impostor want Ben to kill him when he just did the job himself by kicking a still living Jacob into the fire? As far as the scene plays out, this is what actually kills Jacob.

Maybe he's not even dead after all and we'll see him banging on another H-bomb in the season premier.

Well... kicking someone into the fire doesn't really kill him either. Having him stabbed allows EvilLocke to kick him into the fire... hmmm... that doesn't sound right either. Maybe the stabbing was so going to be his demise, it was over when Ben stabbed.

Well... kicking someone into the fire doesn't really kill him either. Having him stabbed allows EvilLocke to kick him into the fire... hmmm... that doesn't sound right either. Maybe the stabbing was so going to be his demise, it was over when Ben stabbed.

What? After Ben stabs the man, he is still alive. If he is indeed dead, it wouldn't be the stab wounds that killed him, but the 3rd degree burns covering 100% of his body.

I've said it before. I think it's writers version of Star was.

"If you strike me down, I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine."

Opening scene of the episode, Jacob's enemy says he wishes there was a loophole so he could kill him.
Cut to scene with Locke, Ben, and Jacob, Jacob says to John Locke, "I guess you found your loophole" - stab in the heart.

So, John Locke isn't really John Locke, he's the enemy dude, who took on Locke's image, to persuade Ben to kill Jacob.

Cool.
And not that exciting when you think about it like that.

What was the enemy's name anyway?

Yeah, Locke is definitely the enemy/smoke monster/whatever you want to believe he is.

And we don't know what his name is

I'm pretty sure that two stab wounds to the chest directly above the heart would have proven fatal. Jacob had already collapsed to his knees and could barely speak. Not Locke just got in the last blow as a final insult. Or so he thinks (i hope!).

When Sayid shot Ben and Ben was taken to Richard, Richard said somehthing to the effect of 'if we take him he will never be the same'. Perhaps the only way Ben could be saved was by him being made 'immortal' (for lack of a better word) by either Jacob or Esau (as Richard may have been made in the past, this being the reason that Richard doesnt age). So could the 'Loophole' be that Jacob can only be killed by someone whom he had made one of his own or 'immortal'? Perhaps Jacob saying 'what about you?' is a reference to the fact that Ben was saved in this manner but took the path of lying and deceit anyway? And maybe Jacob tried to reverse this by giving Ben Cancer?

If Ben was made 'immortal' like Jacob and Richard I would assume Ben would not age (just as Jacob and Richard don't age).

Alright, I'm thinkin' here, why is it that Ben seemingly HAS to kill Jacob, not "Locke". It's established that "The Rules" say that "Locke" (or are we calling him Esau now?) can't kill Jacob. This isn't the first time we've heard about "The Rules". Ben referenced them with Widmore. "Locke" didn't shoot the fleeing Widmore because he's "one of my people". So it's a logical assumption that "The Rules" state that one of Jacob's people (The Others, for lack of a better term) can't kill another Other.

But that begs the question, why CAN Ben? I see two options.

Option A is that Ben no longer qualifies as an Other. He said that once he moved the Island, he was not allowed to come back, that he was effectively "banished". Yet he returned. Does this negate his "Other-hood" and put him on par with the other survivors of Flights 815 and 616? Is he no longer subject to the "laws" that govern the Island or at least the Island's "native" inhabitants?

Or there's Option B, which I'm leaning to more and more: Ben was never subject to them at all. He wasn't born on the Island. He came to the Island as part of the DI. He only defected to The Others. Even though he rose to a position of power within the group, he obviously was never a "Chosen" member of the group (See Jacob's "What ABOUT you, Ben?") so it's not that far of a stretch to ask, was he ever really a member of the group at all?

Just a thought.

If Ben was made 'immortal' like Jacob and Richard I would assume Ben would not age (just as Jacob and Richard don't age).


I know the accepted premise is that 'Richard doesnt age' and it would seem that Jacob doesnt age. However, perhaps the real premise is that 'Richard doesn't grow old'. It would seem to me that Richard, Jacob and Ben are about the same age, probably late 30's just before 40 or 'mid-life', when a person is considered to have started 'growing old'. It just seems to me that a lot of emphasis has been put on the fact that Ben would be somehow changed if Richard took him to be healed by Jacob presumably. Richard knew this because it was the same thing that happened to him. So in a way Richard is the 'good son', Ben is the 'bad son'. The loophole was that Jacob could only be killed by one of his own.

Anybody could 'kill' Jacob's current vessel, except for his nemesis Esau, represented by cloned Locke.

Why is that? I don't know. But I think it has to do with some 'rules' that these two entities are subjected to as part of a game they are playing with human beings.

Esau's plan was to convince Locke that he was special so everybody else on the island believed it too. He was the one who (just like Jacob did it off the island) 'healed' his paralysis.
His final plan was to make someone else WANT TO KILL JACOB.
In this case, it was Ben.
Notice that Ben did it because his daughter (Esau) told him to do anything Locke told him to do.

I don't think the "Rules" have to do with a "game" they are playing, because rules of games can be broken freely, I think the rules are something inherent to the Island. I agree that the rules probably originated with Jacob and "Esau" and that they have been passed on to the native inhabitants of the Island, who are probably descended from the two. Hence why Ben can't kill Widmore himself.

I don't think the "Rules" have to do with a "game" they are playing, because rules of games can be broken freely, I think the rules are something inherent to the Island. I agree that the rules probably originated with Jacob and "Esau" and that they have been passed on to the native inhabitants of the Island, who are probably descended from the two. Hence why Ben can't kill Widmore himself.

the rules can be broken, of course. But you can get punished by breaking a rule. In their case that might mean being banished from the island for ever or losing their 'powers' or aging all of a sudden or being deprived of using human bodies as vessels, etc.

You can find loopholes to 'cheat' or bend these rules wwithout actually 'breakinng' them.

That is what these two players have been trying to do for ages.

Who came up with these rules?

That comes down to the origin of these two entities and to WHAT the island really is.

I am a very new fan to lost. i started at the end of Feb, and watched the entire series, and caught up just in time for the season finale!

In doing so, alot of the story is still fresh in my mind.

I know there is something Special about Locke. The Island has been testing him since day one. And from the beginning I got the impression he has been there before. He had that feeling like he was familiar, but it had been a really long time. i could be wrong.

Anyway, i read the threads about the compass that seemingly has no origin.

In the looping event's of the exchange of the compass, Locke realised there were two of himself.

My original theory is that Locke found himself and said he had to kill himself. But that would be too much for the human mind to comprehend.

so he sends Richard to tell the other Locke he had to die. Why? Because there cannot be two Lockes. He knew this would throw everyone off.

Somehow Locke stayed on the island. He dies in an alternate timeline, and is brought back to the island.

Locke then waits for the plane to crash, and tries to play off being UNdead. His old body is discarded, but still found in the plane wreckage.
I remember a scene where they focus on Locke's shoes, and thought nothing of it then. Now, i wonder if those were christian's shoes, or his own?

This is a bit of a stretch.

Locke came into contact with Esau at some point, perhaps the voice in the cabin. I wouldn't say Locke was possessed, but guided by Esau.

Esau uses Locke, who in turn uses Ben to kill Jacob.

This is probably a far fetched idea...but this is a far fetched show which obviously has no rules or boundries, and i love how it makes my brain swell!
:biggrin:

I remember a scene where they focus on Locke's shoes, and thought nothing of it then. Now, i wonder if those were christian's shoes, or his own?
Whoa! :eek2: That's a hell of a call back! Didn't even think about that. They did make a big deal about his shoes in... what was it? Walkabout?


Anyway, yeah. I'm on board with this a bit. Since the Esau and Jacob scene, I'm a little suspicious of any line that includes "the island". I don't think the island told anybody anything. I think the island is just a rock.

Because, really, how would Locke know what or who was speaking to him? It's not like his visions were proceded by, "Hello, John. This is the island". It could have been one of the two game players all along. Or different ones pulling him one way then another. And if so, no wonder he was confused!

I only say "the island" because of what Locke says. for all he knew, it was the island.

Obviously, he figured things out. and for the sake of arguement from Ben and Richard, he kept to "the Island" as the sorce.
100%
Whoa! :eek2: That's a hell of a call back! Didn't even think about that. They did make a big deal about his shoes in... what was it? Walkabout?


Hmm.... I think they were refering to his innability to walk, i will have to research that.

But i am refering to when Jack visited dead Locke for the last time, Jack put Christian's shoes on Locke, as to simlulate a place for Christian on the plane.

Eloise said to simulate the original plane as much as possible.

thats something totally different.

I was just curious if Living Locke was wearing his old shoes, or Christian's shoes. I will rewatch the epi tonight!

I'm thinking that real Locke is not being resurrected because he's wearing Christian's shoes and you're thinking why Christian because he's seem to me he's not on good side.

That's a very interesting theory.. when Ilana dumped Locke's dead body in front of Richard, I replayed it purposely to see what shoes he was wearing, but only the top part of his body was shown.. They showed two angles of his body, but both excluded his feet. perhaps deliberately.

You really may have something here. Remember when Chang accidentally had two versions of the same rabbit in the same room during a taped demonstration? He really reacted to it and said that it could be catastrophic if they were allowed to be together. Two Lockes would explain how the possessed Locke has a full memory of all the happenings that the dead Locke experienced. He recognized their old camp, he basically fooled everyone because he was Locke as well!
Very clever idea!

That's a very interesting theory.. when Ilana dumped Locke's dead body in front of Richard, I replayed it purposely to see what shoes he was wearing, but only the top part of his body was shown.. They showed two angles of his body, but both excluded his feet. perhaps deliberately.

You really may have something here. Remember when Chang accidentally had two versions of the same rabbit in the same room during a taped demonstration? He really reacted to it and said that it could be catastrophic if they were allowed to be together. Two Lockes would explain how the possessed Locke has a full memory of all the happenings that the dead Locke experienced. He recognized their old camp, he basically fooled everyone because he was Locke as well!
Very clever idea!

I went back and watched it again, and i noticed that too! but i need to go back and look at Locke's old shoes, and christian's shoes.

but in Abrams' Star Trek:


Young Spock runs into Old Spock, and it was almost like they both knew it was going to happen


I dont remember this Chang video. what episode?

I'm telling you now! Episode one should be called "The Tale Of Two Lockes!" :biggrin:

there are not 2 locke's. easu appeared as locke, just as smoky appeared as yemi. there is only one john locke, the other one was easu.

I went back and watched it again, and i noticed that too! but i need to go back and look at Locke's old shoes, and christian's shoes.

but in Abrams' Star Trek:


Young Spock runs into Old Spock, and it was almost like they both knew it was going to happen


I dont remember this Chang video. what episode?

I'm telling you now! Episode one should be called "The Tale Of Two Lockes!" :biggrin:

I don't know the name but I think it's from season 3. It's from one of the "Orientation films" when Chang/Hallowax/I forget his name in this video :P has the white bunny and is in the room with the vault down the orchid.

Then like another white bunny zapps on screen and it's the same bunny as the one is holding but it time traveled and apparently they can't see each other (I think it was seeing, not so much touching/being together) but I could be wrong.

I definitly remember what he is talking about though.

I don't know the name but I think it's from season 3. It's from one of the "Orientation films" when Chang/Hallowax/I forget his name in this video :P has the white bunny and is in the room with the vault down the orchid.

Then like another white bunny zapps on screen and it's the same bunny as the one is holding but it time traveled and apparently they can't see each other (I think it was seeing, not so much touching/being together) but I could be wrong.

I definitely remember what he is talking about though.
It is from the orientation video for the orchid. . . specifically the "outtakes".
I'm pretty sure he never says anything about them seeing each other, but he does make a big deal about them being near each other. In all honesty I completely forgot about that video. . .

Now what if the "not locke" really is/was locke and the dead locke will be locke.
In other words, the man in the box is locke, from the future. The man on the island has not left the island yet, even though we are led to believe he has. After all he knew when and where he would poof into the island so Richard could treat his leg, what would keep him from knowing when the plane crashed?

I went back and watched it again, and i noticed that too! but i need to go back and look at Locke's old shoes, and christian's shoes.

but in Abrams' Star Trek:


Young Spock runs into Old Spock, and it was almost like they both knew it was going to happen


I dont remember this Chang video. what episode?

I'm telling you now! Episode one should be called "The Tale Of Two Lockes!" :biggrin:

Nah, I've seen Trek 5 times (LOL), and Spock just randomly comes up on Spock Prime (old spock), and thinks he's his dad. When Spock Prime turns around, Spock knew who he was because he had found Spock Prime's ship and figured out that there was another Spock running around beforehand.

However, there is a nice nod to Lost in Trek where, two different times in the movie, a character says, "I might throw up on you," just like Kate said to Jack in episode 1.

Also, you have the entire story centered around time travel.

Notice that in Trek, we allow for alternate universes, thus you CAN change the past, because the second you arrive in the past, a new timeline/universe is born. Perhaps this will eventually apply to Lost as well - though I doubt it.

Nah, I've seen Trek 5 times (LOL), and Spock just randomly comes up on Spock Prime (old spock), and thinks he's his dad. When Spock Prime turns around, Spock knew who he was because he had found Spock Prime's ship and figured out that there was another Spock running around beforehand.

However, there is a nice nod to Lost in Trek where, two different times in the movie, a character says, "I might throw up on you," just like Kate said to Jack in episode 1.

Also, you have the entire story centered around time travel.

Notice that in Trek, we allow for alternate universes, thus you CAN change the past, because the second you arrive in the past, a new timeline/universe is born. Perhaps this will eventually apply to Lost as well - though I doubt it.
Why do you doubt it? I think the past is definitely changing on Lost. The Loophole probably has something to do with it.

The Loophole and Jacob's Nature.

Jacob / Esau are not HUMANS, they are concepts, Jacob is "free will and choice" and Esau is "People are corrupt concept, which is the instinct to survive concept".

Furthermore I assume that the Guy in the in the Black shirt (Esau) is Smokey and not a tool of Esau as some people suggest. It is reasonable to assume that he is Smokey since Smokey has the ability to appear in any form, and moreover when Ben Summons the Smoke Monster and says to sun that what comes out of that jungle he cannot control there appears John Locke coming and then Locke takes Ben to "be judged" and when they go under the temple Locke goes away when Smokey appears to "Judge Ben". There are more clues hinting that Esau is taking the Form of Locke, but this is not the subject of this post.

Moreover, Smokey is the "security system of the island", in a way he is protecting the island itself from not being found and protecting in that way Jacob (free will) - hence free will is protected by instinct to survive concept", some see this as Jacob being some sort of a prisoner on the island, so Smokey can only "end his mandate", and free himself also if Jacob is Dead. But The RULE of the Game is that is that Smokey can't kill Jacob but only a human being Can, and not any human being but the LEADER since only the Leader can Request to see Jacob (Only the leader has free will). That is why Locke/Smokey uses Ben to kill him Jacob. So essentially when Ben asks Jacob, "what about me" he is asking the question what about US humans and do we have free will and choice or not?

Finally the LOOPHOLE is Leading a person who is believed to be THE LEADER** to kill the very concept of free will and choice.

**Ben is still the leader since Richard was only lead to believe that John was the Leader because John told Richard he was their leader in 1954, the same applies to the John (Smokey) telling Richard to tell John that he must die so he can be brought back on the island and used by Smokey to manipulate Ben to kill Jacob. This is consistent with the ability of Ben to summon Smokey to Protect Jacob - protect the island and kill Keamy and his men. So now the Concept of free will is KILLED and Ben is still the LEADER of the others, initially Jacobs people but they are now in a way Esau's people, since Esau Proved his point that people are corrupt, by making Ben kill Jacob.

Hopefully this makes sense, i wrote this in one run, if you have any questions or you think there are any inconsistencies please feel free to post them and i will answer them ASAP.

---------------
Do what thou wilt, shalt be the whole of the law.
Love is the law, love under will.
or
Jacob in Esau's service, and not the other way around :)

The Loophole to what?

Is The Loophole an exception to the rule that the the guy from the beginning who is not Jacob (tgftbwinj) can't kill Jacob unless he gets someone else to do it?

Or only the leader can kill Jacob? Maybe Ben is still the real leader, and fake Locke just had everyone thinking he is the leader?

True, thats what i ponder.

1. The Leader can't really see Jacob because the very concept of Jacob is Religion and faith. (Ben follows orders written on slips of paper)
2. Jacob can be killed/seen only in presence of Esau and killed by the leader.
3. Locke is "special" because he will unite the concepts of Esau and Jacob. *Claire's dream with Locke having one black and one white eye.

Esau - humans have no free will.
Jacob - free will, but limited choice (which is no free will, i remember a quote from devil's advocate here: "I only set the stage, and you pull your own strings" - Al Pacino, as Satan. - which is i think very hypocritical.

and what pisses me off is people using words like who is good and who is evil loosely, what does that mean anyway!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
Love is the law Love under Will.
100%
Killing by proxy....

is it what is ALLOWED or what is POSSIBLE?

possible
and not any proxy but the chosen leader
100%
Ben and Widmore. Jacob and Not Jacob. And some strange rule or force the prevents one from killing the other?

precisely, something like chess, you cant really kill the king, you have to trap him untill he has nowehre to go.. so he has to stay in the cabin ;)
100%
Clearly, 19th century Fish Man and Resurrected Locke were both Smoky. Smoky is certainly capable of killing any living person at will. Yet when Ben stabbed Jacob, he died (I think) just like any mortal would. Does Ben have a unique power? That would explain why Jacob was so coy about revealing himself to Ben over the years. Or is Jacob vulnerable to any mortal that Smoky could trick into doing the deed for him?

Not any mortal, but the leader of the others (you can easily make an analogy of the others as the human race), and the leader as its "purest" Representative, purest in a sense reflecting the "true" nature. i think at the end we will have Locke killing Esau ;) or maybe Esau is in a way allready "dead" since he incarnated as Locke.

*one random thought i just got.. the Dark side or Esau is contracting force, hindering progress and light as expanding, they are not black and white sides! Esau does not believe in progress obviously :)but Jacob is hypocrit they both suck :)

Jacob could very well be like Richard. Which could be the reason why he was living in the temple. Ben might have been the only person who could kill Jacob, since he is the only person we know who been reborn in the temple.

As far as we know Ben never died.


Locke then waits for the plane to crash, and tries to play off being UNdead. His old body is discarded, but still found in the plane wreckage.
I remember a scene where they focus on Locke's shoes, and thought nothing of it then. Now, i wonder if those were christian's shoes, or his own?

I was just curious if Living Locke was wearing his old shoes, or Christian's shoes. I will rewatch the epi tonight!
:biggrin:
Christian's shoes
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=124057&fullsize=1
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=124060&fullsize=1

Locke's shoes
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=124187&fullsize=1

Locke with Christian's shoes
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=124198&fullsize=1

Notlocke with Christian's shoes
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=127883&fullsize=1

Notlocke wearing boots which is what I believe he had on when he spoke with Jacob.
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pid=129398&fullsize=1

Hope this helps. ;)

Clearly, 19th century Fish Man and Resurrected Locke were both Smoky. Smoky is certainly capable of killing any living person at will. Yet when Ben stabbed Jacob, he died (I think) just like any mortal would. Does Ben have a unique power? That would explain why Jacob was so coy about revealing himself to Ben over the years. Or is Jacob vulnerable to any mortal that Smoky could trick into doing the deed for him?

Now that makes me wonder what really happened when Richard took dying Ben

My thoughts:

Perhaps the rule is "Your people can't kill my people, and vice-versa." The loophole, then, could be one of three things, as far as I'm concerned:

1. By taking Locke's body, he has become one of Jacob's people, which means his ability to kill is available. But if that were it, he wouldn't need Ben, so. . .onto number 2. . .

2. By convincing Ben to do it, he got the same accomplished--a member of Jacob's order did the backstabbing. That, or. . .

3. This is my favorite option. Modify the above rule to "Neither team can kill anybody on either team". . .but since Ben was banished, he's no longer on anyone's team, thus, he is the loophole.

No one can see Jacob except through Richard.
Richard does not let anyone see Jacob except the leader, and even then, he never wants to.
And Richard, being the go between, is the one who selects the leader.

Richard chose Locke as the leader. Locke, as leader, demands to see Jacob. Locke, as leader, demands that Ben come visit as well.. Richard vehemently objects now being faced with a situation he has not encountered before. "There can only be one leader!" Locke, as leader, does not back down. Ergo, Richard lets Locke into the chamber. That is the loophole. Richard chooses the leader. Only the leader can enter. Richard is subserviant to the leader. NotLocke cannot kill Jacob, but Ben can. Richard, not aware that Locke is actually NotLocke, allows the "leader" his audience.

I think the loophole is Richard choosing Locke to be the leader of the Others. Richard was led to believe that Locke is supposed to be their leader in part by the time-travelling Locke and Jack's recommendation. I don't think Locke was ever meant to be the leader of the Others. Richard allowed the fake Locke to meet Jacob based on his belief that Locke is the leader. Richard mentioned that only the leader is allowed to meet Jacob. Does that exclude himself as well? If there was communication between Richard and Jacob, wouldn't Richard just know who's the next leader is supposed to be?

Sess:

Richard was led to believe that Locke was the leader by NotLocke sending Locke to introduce himself to Richard in 1954.

Takl about your long con

No one can see Jacob except through Richard.
Richard does not let anyone see Jacob except the leader, and even then, he never wants to.
And Richard, being the go between, is the one who selects the leader.

Richard chose Locke as the leader. Locke, as leader, demands to see Jacob. Locke, as leader, demands that Ben come visit as well.. Richard vehemently objects now being faced with a situation he has not encountered before. "There can only be one leader!" Locke, as leader, does not back down. Ergo, Richard lets Locke into the chamber. That is the loophole. Richard chooses the leader. Only the leader can enter. Richard is subserviant to the leader. NotLocke cannot kill Jacob, but Ben can. Richard, not aware that Locke is actually NotLocke, allows the "leader" his audience.

I think this is spot on. What's interesting is that a loophole is needed in the first place. There are clearly defined rules that have been established amongst their"kind."

The loophole is time travel - by demonstrating that WHH, UnJacob has proved there is no free will.

Maybe :)

The loophole is time travel - by demonstrating that WHH, UnJacob has proved there is no free will.

Maybe :)


WHH is not the same as fate. You can have WHH and free will together. I'd expound more on it, but I'm really tired and should probably get to bed. If you're interested, you might be able to find some of my previous posts through my profile. There should be plenty of 'em.

Jacob doesn't represent good; he represents free will. The other guy represents destiny.


I agree. I just don't know how to follow up anything else we've discovered into a theory around this idea. *but I do agree, totally, nonetheless. :)

At the moment Locke asks Richard to give the other Locke the compass... there are 3 Lockes on the Island. The one who is flashing, the one who is dead in the crate with Ilana, and the one (Esau-Locke) who is telling Richard to go give flashing Locke the compass.

On the beach when Ilana is talking to Locke the morning after he has appeared to them, he is wearing the funeral clothes, and Christian's shoes are on the beach.

Christian is Esau.

hurray for irony!!!!!!! i think newly killed jacob will rise like a phoenix and enter
LOCKE's BODY IN THE BOX as his solution to the Loophole problem.

hurray for irony!!!!!!! i think newly killed jacob will rise like a phoenix and enter
LOCKE's BODY IN THE BOX as his solution to the Loophole problem.

Paving the way for the doppelgangers we have been promised for years!

I think Richard has already told us what the loophole is.


Richard: Wha what are you doing?
Ben: John wants me to join him.
Richard: You can't bring him in.
Notlocke: Why not?
Richard: Because only our leader can request an audience with Jacob and there can
only be one leader on the Island at a time John.
Notlocke: I'm beginnng to think you just make these rules up as you go along Richard.
Ben is coming in wih me and if that's a problem I'm sure Jacob I can work it out.
Jacob knew that having two leaders on the Island would enable one to kill him so he made the rule to protect himself. He knew that The Man-In-Black would eventually figure it out. I definitely think Jacob has a plan and it involves all of those that were touched by him.

Did Esau/Locke need to go through all he did just to convince Ben to kill Jacob?

I just thought of something:

Widmore became leader after Eloise left the Island (why Eloise left is still unknown).
Ben did not become leader until after Widmore left the Island.
Locke did not become leader until after Ben left the Island.

The reason Widmore did not go on the Kahana to the Island, after he finally found out how to get back to it, was because of the rule "there can only be one leader on the Island at a time".

Widmore sent the Kahana with orders to get Ben off the Island so he could go back.

I just thought of something:

Widmore became leader after Eloise left the Island (why Eloise left is still unknown).
Ben did not become leader until after Widmore left the Island.
Locke did not become leader until after Ben left the Island.

The reason Widmore did not go on the Kahana to the Island, after he finally found out how to get back to it, was because of the rule "there can only be one leader on the Island at a time".

Widmore sent the Kahana with orders to get Ben off the Island so he could go back.


I do like this theory - but I think if it were so there would be more of an uproar from the others about Ben even being there.

I do like this theory - but I think if it were so there would be more of an uproar from the others about Ben even being there.
Notlocke was the leader so if he brought Ben back they figured he knew what he was doing. The were also leaving it to Richard and Notlocke to deal with.

well I just re-watched the pilot and have been researching the Backgammon Rules.. and there is a rule....The Jacoby Rule. Gammons and backgammons count only as a single game if neither player has offered a double during the course of the game. This rule speeds up play by eliminating situations where a player avoids doubling so he can play on for a gammon. Could this be the loophole? I don't know how it specifically applies....help!!!!!!

Jacobs nemesis has been forcing the pieces in this game the whole way. If Ben followed MIB posing as his mother into the jungle then Richard was decieved. Locke and the compass another deception played out by MIB.

Jacob doesnt push, he offers choices and we all know deep down that Jacob foresaw all of this and his death at the hands of his nemesis and Ben was not un anticipated. His plans must involve the ones he touched and we shall see that play out. Jacob may have realised to prove his point would require his sacrifice.

Thats my guess so far anyways.

I just thought of something:

Widmore became leader after Eloise left the Island (why Eloise left is still unknown).
Ben did not become leader until after Widmore left the Island.
Locke did not become leader until after Ben left the Island.

The reason Widmore did not go on the Kahana to the Island, after he finally found out how to get back to it, was because of the rule "there can only be one leader on the Island at a time".

Widmore sent the Kahana with orders to get Ben off the Island so he could go back.
This is an interesting observation. Since Locke died back in the real world it could be that he never actually became the leader and Ben retained the title the whole time. Maybe only the Leader can kill Jacob and Not-Jacob/MIB became Locke so everyone would think Ben was no longer the leader when actually he still was.