So the story Jack told to Kate paraphrased:

"I told myself I was only going to let the fear in for 5 seconds," whereas we see that Christian tells him this, and it's not a scene of acceptance as Jack painted it, but, from Jack's point of view, a case of his father trying to belittle him just one more time. So what's the dealio on this? Is Jack lying, or is this another example of the ripples of time changing?

I don't think anything changed -- Jack simply relayed the story the way he perceived the experience.

I think Jack just edited his father out of the story. That way, instead of a story about his father belittling him, it became about how Jack persevered.

I think he just used that story to calm Kate so she could stitch him up.

In season one, he tells Kate that he wasn't going to let himself be afraid when he operated on that patient and split the dorsal sac, he counted to 5 and then fixed the patient. I think it is very interesting that it was Christian who told Jack to calm down, count to five and do it, or he would have to .
The one time Jack feels empowered and unafraid, it was because of Christian, the one man he wants to prove wrong and the man he hates.
Funny that it was Christian who actually told Jack that, and that Jack is passing it on as if he was the one in control of the situation.
I think it said a lot about Jack's character, he really is afraid. And his father may have been a jerk and rough on him, but it is what pushed him to do better, sometimes that is the only way you can get people to their potential.

In season one, he tells Kate that he wasn't going to let himself be afraid when he operated on that patient and split the dorsal sac, he counted to 5 and then fixed the patient. I think it is very interesting that it was Christian who told Jack to calm down, count to five and do it, or he would have to .
The one time Jack feels empowered and unafraid, it was because of Christian, the one man he wants to prove wrong and the man he hates.
Funny that it was Christian who actually told Jack that, and that Jack is passing it on as if he was the one in control of the situation.
I think it said a lot about Jack's character, he really is afraid. And his father may have been a jerk and rough on him, but it is what pushed him to do better, sometimes that is the only way you can get people to their potential.

I really enjoyed that scene also shown from a different perspective. Jack not only counted to 5 but then acted like he was 5 afterwards.

Haha...yeah, but I kinda agreed with him. It would've been embarrassing in front of his team, especially given the presumption about how he got the gig in the first place.

With a young patient on the table on verge of being permanently quadraplegic, or dead (all the nerves spilled out like pasta), what was Christian supposed to say? He's a tough head of surgery and I imagine he spoke the same way he'd speak to any other young surgeon in the situation: 'count to five, pull it together, or I'll have to take over from you, for the patient's sake'. When Jack later recounted this experience to Kate, I think he exercised 'selective memory'. It's not a lie to others as much as it's a lie to the self, which is a worse lie because the self can't evolve except in the truth.

Now we're even questioning whether time travel has reordered the universe based solely on Jack supposedly not being "all that"?

boy, wouldn't that be amazing if time was changed. but i say WHH, and it sucks.

I'm not even sure it was selective memory. He had a purpose in telling the story. He told it to Kate so she'd be able to stitch him up. He had to make it motivational, not an entertaining anecdote from his past. For all we know, Christian learned the technique in a similar manner, but relaying that part to Jack wasn't important at the moment.

BTW, I didn't vote. The choices seem irrelevant to the question.

I didn't vote, the choices were limited, it wasn't a time issue it was a Jack's a liar issue. Jack lied to Kate, it was not his idea, it was his fathers, he didn't take it well, he thought he was being put on time out when now it seems he was being given a tool to help him in similar situations, in the future. I was screaming at my tv, when the scene aired, that he is a liar, and wouldn't give credit where it was due.

I think that at the time it happened, he was humiliated by his father, but later on down the line in his life, he learned that it was a very good lesson he learned that day. We learn a lot of big lessons in life the hard way but usually don't relate the struggle in the retelling.

I didn't vote, the choices were limited, it wasn't a time issue it was a Jack's a liar issue. Jack lied to Kate, it was not his idea, it was his fathers, he didn't take it well, he thought he was being put on time out when now it seems he was being given a tool to help him in similar situations, in the future. I was screaming at my tv, when the scene aired, that he is a liar, and wouldn't give credit where it was due.


I think it's the sort of detail you leave out when you're talking to someone you just met after a plane crash. ;) That event was a defining moment for Jack, and he told Kate the basics...the truth - that the counting to five really did calm him down. So, no, I really dont think he lied.

Yeah, I don't think Jack lied to Kate. The fact that it was not his idea doesn't mean that he doesn't believe it was the best way to overcome fear.

I think it's the sort of detail you leave out when you're talking to someone you just met after a plane crash. ;) That event was a defining moment for Jack, and he told Kate the basics...the truth - that the counting to five really did calm him down. So, no, I really dont think he lied.

as much as i understand what you are saying, the story was told in the pilot for a purpose, to bring jack and kate together throughout the series. they blew it when they added christian to the story. it lost it's nuance.

With a young patient on the table on verge of being permanently quadraplegic, or dead (all the nerves spilled out like pasta), what was Christian supposed to say? He's a tough head of surgery and I imagine he spoke the same way he'd speak to any other young surgeon in the situation: 'count to five, pull it together, or I'll have to take over from you, for the patient's sake'. When Jack later recounted this experience to Kate, I think he exercised 'selective memory'. It's not a lie to others as much as it's a lie to the self, which is a worse lie because the self can't evolve except in the truth.



I think that at the time it happened, he was humiliated by his father, but later on down the line in his life, he learned that it was a very good lesson he learned that day. We learn a lot of big lessons in life the hard way but usually don't relate the struggle in the retelling.

:yes: Well said. To me the story wasn't diminished in anyway. It actually showed some growth in the sense that lundi and lostnadream mentioned. Because he told it differently by leaving Christian out, that dosen't mean it didn't leave a mark on Jack himself. It did enough to pass the story down to Kate in a time where it was needed. That said volumes IMO.:shrug:

they blew it when they added christian to the story.completely. The story was JACK getting through it, and we learn his father was right there as always and it changes our perception of Jack ( well, it changes mine at least)

I don't think that Jack lied. I agree with whoever said that Jack may have felt belittled at the time, but looking back on it learned that he did learn how to deal with fear in those momnets. But...I found it completely unnecessary to change the original beautiful story & make it something else entirely.

as much as i understand what you are saying, the story was told in the pilot for a purpose, to bring jack and kate together throughout the series. they blew it when they added christian to the story. it lost it's nuance.

I think it gained nuance. It adds more depth to their relationship and to the fact that Jack is who he is because of Christian. Jack is still brave and stubborn and all those things, but he's only that way because of his father. And even after his death, Jack edited him out of his own stories. What Christian said about sacrificing his relationship with Jack for his sake appears to be true.

I think it was an interesting choice for Jacob's touch with Jack. The common thread in every one of the FB's was showing a pivotal moment that led to that character getting to the Island.

I think Jacob delayed Jack going after his father to finish the conversation enough so that the moment was lost, the resentment continued to build, and a couple years later Christian is in a casket while his son argues with the airlines to bring his dad home.

I think that the point of this story is to show that while Jack was angry and humiliated at the time, he still finished the surgery and became stronger for it.

And it would be bizarre if he had brought this story up with Christian when he first met Kate.

Jack: Hey! can you help me?
Kate: Um sure.
Jack: Can you stitch me up?
Kate: I can't do this.
Jack: Let me tell you this story that will help you sew me up, but then make you run away because of my daddy issues.

The point of that story at the time was to help Kate fix him, get them bonded, etc. I think it also illustrates how adept Jack had become at surgically removing his father from his life when he talked to others.

P.S. It also isn't really a lie per se either. He just distilled the story down into the important elements for the situation at hand. I'm not sure how many guys would have told this story and included their father in it. ;)

I think Jacob delayed Jack going after his father to finish the conversation enough so that the moment was lost, the resentment continued to build, and a couple years later Christian is in a casket while his son argues with the airlines to bring his dad home.

completely agree. Jacob is in some way involved with each characters flaw

I think Jacob delayed Jack going after his father to finish the conversation enough so that the moment was lost, the resentment continued to build, and a couple years later Christian is in a casket while his son argues with the airlines to bring his dad home.

:shocking: You're so right! I hadn't even thought about that scene! What about Hurley and Sun/Jin? Takes on those scenes?

i have a question. when they did the pilot and wrote the story for jack to tell kate, do you think they had the surgery scene with christian in mind? do you think that when kate memorized the story and took it to heart that they thought of the 5th season finale? how about when she told the story back to jack while he was struggling with ben's surgery? do you think the writers thought about the surgery scene and how they could throw christian into the story then?

the "he fixed her" statement mirrored jack fixing kate. saving her so that she and sawyer could get away. the fear was so great for him that she would die if he couldn't save ben, so he needed her to give back the story and help him through the surgery.

gee, how i wish christian had been there to help.

Yeah I was a little harsh earlier, I guess it was better to leave the humiliation part out of it when telling the story to Kate, and we all know how Jack feels about his entire life with his father, so it's safe to assume he wasn't outright lieing, but fudging the truth to fit the situation better, at least it was better than him telling what actually happened and looking like a baby to this woman he just met and was probably trying to impress a little.

Yeah I was a little harsh earlier, I guess it was better to leave the humiliation part out of it when telling the story to Kate, and we all know how Jack feels about his entire life with his father, so it's safe to assume he wasn't outright lieing, but fudging the truth to fit the situation better, at least it was better than him telling what actually happened and looking like a baby to this woman he just met and was probably trying to impress a little.

i hope you're not talking about me, because i agree with you 100%!:biggrin:

i saw the pilot as a heroic doctor taking a break after doing all that he could to save people after the crash. he goes off alone to fix himself when this stranger comes out of the jungle. he asks her to help him sew himself up. when she's afraid, he tells her this story of how he is afraid in his first solo surgery, he lets the fear in and then counts to 5. i envisioned this the way KATE envisioned it. she was mesmerized. their bond was sealed. i flipped when she used it hiding from the monster thinking, wow, these two are really connected already. there is no way in hell that the writers knew that they were going the route of christian at that time. they were just hoping the pilot was going to make it.

the surgery scene, he was afraid and then said suction, before he could mentally count to five, christian was blathering what to do. SHUT UP. :D

Perhaps Jack realized how valuable Christian's timeout was years later.

i hope you're not talking about me, because i agree with you 100%!:biggrin:
Maybe a little, I was thinking about it while at work, shh don't tell my boss I was thinking about LOST when I should've been working, then I decided to come back and repost, with a change of opinion slightly, we have no computer usage monitoring at work, they are so stupid:biggrin: I just think it's odd that he makes no mention of how it was his fathers suggestion to count to five, something that he uses to this day as a way of calming himself down when he gets scared, it is afterall one of the nice things his father actually gave him. I really think for the most part Jack took his father for granted, not that Christian was a really great father or anything but had they acutally talked, things might have been different, huh? where have we heard that before? Seems like a theme.

:shocking: You're so right! I hadn't even thought about that scene! What about Hurley and Sun/Jin? Takes on those scenes?
Sun/Jin one Didn't Jacob mention them having children? Also you could say that Sun's comment that "his Korean is excellent" kind of parallels her learning english. Jin's vows were sort of telling too knowing what was to come for them in the future.
I dunno how much Hurley's FB gives us, also when was it? Sounded like it was after he was part of the O6. The only detail that seems like it may be important is the guitar, due to his being friends with Charlie.

I didn't vote, the choices were limited, it wasn't a time issue it was a Jack's a liar issue.Actually, you are saying Christian was always there in the operating room, that "What happened, happened."

Actually, you are saying Christian was always there in the operating room, that "What happened, happened."
Well I guess, so I put in my vote.

This has become an even more interesting thread as it progressed--'cause of YAE! Some very perceptive remarks from folks. Reading and thinking more on this, I've come to feel that this flashback wasn't really about Jack as much as it was about Christian, whose story I suspect we'll be shown next season. From next season's perspective then, this flashback will become a reflection piece. For now we've been given both Jack's memory of this key episode in his life (in the Pilot, informing us more about who he is), and the reality of it (in this Finale, informing us more about Christian as well as their relationship). This new information, for me, doesn't diminish Jack in any way. It makes him human.

I think he was lying and it was actually more like linguini. ;) No, seriously, I think he told the story as he honestly remembered it, as distorted by time and memory.
100%
Reading and thinking more on this, I've come to feel that this flashback wasn't really about Jack as much as it was about Christian, whose story I suspect we'll be shown next season. From next season's perspective then, this flashback will become a reflection piece. For now we've been given both Jack's memory of this key episode in his life (in the Pilot, informing us more about who he is), and the reality of it (in this Finale, informing us more about Christian as well as their relationship). This new information, for me, doesn't diminish Jack in any way. It makes him human.
I agree with this completely. We've had a lot of Jack talking down about his father, but this seems like the first glimpse into how his father's leadership (whether we agree with the approach or not), was integral to him becoming the positive things he became. It really sheds some positive light on Christian that has been missing. It doesn't really take anything away from Jack... it shows him re-casting memories into an ego-centric view, but that is not new.

I think you're looking too much into this. Jack relaying the story differently than it happened doesn't indicate a change in how the events happened. It just means that Jack didn't want to give his father credit for what happened in the OR. And this makes sense given Jack's daddy issues.

i still think it's because of the writers. the surgery story in the pilot was done probably the way that jack told it. then when it came time to put jacob into jack's life, they used the story and "rewrote" the surgery the way they wanted it interpreted. it doesn't match, but it's how they wanted it to go now.

The man had caused his father to lose his job and ruin his career (albeit deservedly so), and then flee to Australia. He was sent by his mum to get his estranged father back, knowing (or at least believing) that his father wouldn't want to see him, anyway. That's a lot of pain right there.

Upon arriving in Australia, he then discovered his dad had drunk himself to death. A huge blow, I'd reckon, especially considering they'd never reconciled. One can imagine the regret, the conflicted emotion, the anger there.

Then, he had the unenviable task of taking his dead dad's body back home. I'm guessing he's already pretty frazzled. The crash, the chaos, his own wounds... it all adds up. I just can't see him even wanting to refer to his father at that point, for God's sake, much less mention him casually to a stranger! It's perfectly plausible (and real) for him not to have done so. IIRC, he didn't speak of Christian till he had a mini meltdown and confessed some stuff to Locke in WR.

I think we're also perhaps forgetting that Jack isn't really a 'let's share' sort of man, anyway. He's pretty closed up.

Regardless, I also agree with posts saying he may have taken something from that surgery later and adopted it, or that he simply wanted to calm Kate down and help her stitch him up: telling her a story about he freaked out in a surgery and couldn't handle it till Daddy stepped in wouldn't have accomplished the same goal.

The narration wasn't as important as the lesson within: count to 5 and master your fear. I'll bet Jack did that regularly after the FB surgery, anyway. And it's perfectly within his rights to tell an edited or brief version of the story to someone he's just met!

I don't want to sound offensive, but calling him a 'liar' is really grasping at straws, IMO. Seriously. It's actually laughable, trying to turn even this human moment into a gratitutous one. I mean, I know many people don't like him, but how about at least a semblance of some sort of fairness?

but calling him a 'liar' is really grasping at straws,

i, too, think that is a little harsh.

i said earlier in this thread that i thought that once jack landed on the island, he was somewhat free of his father. even though his father was dead before he landed, he had so much to contend with, getting him back, burying him, his mother. but after all that happened with the crash and saving the ones that he could, he had other things on his mind and he was finally free from the problems he had with his dad. if they want to go forward and seriously change the story by adding his dad, then i guess i would have to say that jack made it his own because he didn't have his dad "looming" over him. so, evanesco, i can agree with your post, your point of view.

but i can still not like it.;) at all!

Course you can not like it, max! I hear ya :)

thank you, dear!:D

i still think it's because of the writers. the surgery story in the pilot was done probably the way that jack told it. then when it came time to put jacob into jack's life, they used the story and "rewrote" the surgery the way they wanted it interpreted. it doesn't match, but it's how they wanted it to go now.
The surgery part didn't have anything to do with Jacob. The dynamic between Jack and his father has been a major subject of the show since S1. I don't see any reason to believe that the writers changed their minds about how the key events between them took place. Interpreting that way just seems to take one out of the story. It seems like you're choosing to "not believe" the story being told.

no, i'm not saying i don't believe the story. i'm saying that when they wrote the pilot, i don't think they even knew that the show was going to make it, let alone for 5 seasons. i don't think they wrote it initially to later put christian into the story. i don't care about jacob being put into the story. i think that when they wanted to put jacob into each one of the lostie's lives, they chose the surgery story to intertwine jacob into meeting and "touching" jack.

do you think that when the story was told in the pilot, that the writers, darlton and jj, thought, well, christian needs to be in the surgery with jack and tell him to count to five, but we're going to save that until the 5th season? that is what i'm saying. i don't think that him telling the story in the pilot seems to mirror his actual experience in the operating room with his dad. it may explain jack and christian's relationship now, since we've watched him for 5 seasons, but it didn't seem like he was keeping his father out of the story when he was telling it in the pilot.

The man had caused his father to lose his job and ruin his career (albeit deservedly so), and then flee to Australia. He was sent by his mum to get his estranged father back, knowing (or at least believing) that his father wouldn't want to see him, anyway. That's a lot of pain right there.

Upon arriving in Australia, he then discovered his dad had drunk himself to death. A huge blow, I'd reckon, especially considering they'd never reconciled. One can imagine the regret, the conflicted emotion, the anger there.

Then, he had the unenviable task of taking his dead dad's body back home. I'm guessing he's already pretty frazzled. The crash, the chaos, his own wounds... it all adds up. I just can't see him even wanting to refer to his father at that point, for God's sake, much less mention him casually to a stranger! It's perfectly plausible (and real) for him not to have done so. IIRC, he didn't speak of Christian till he had a mini meltdown and confessed some stuff to Locke in WR.

I think we're also perhaps forgetting that Jack isn't really a 'let's share' sort of man, anyway. He's pretty closed up.

Regardless, I also agree with posts saying he may have taken something from that surgery later and adopted it, or that he simply wanted to calm Kate down and help her stitch him up: telling her a story about he freaked out in a surgery and couldn't handle it till Daddy stepped in wouldn't have accomplished the same goal.

The narration wasn't as important as the lesson within: count to 5 and master your fear. I'll bet Jack did that regularly after the FB surgery, anyway. And it's perfectly within his rights to tell an edited or brief version of the story to someone he's just met!

I don't want to sound offensive, but calling him a 'liar' is really grasping at straws, IMO. Seriously. It's actually laughable, trying to turn even this human moment into a gratitutous one. I mean, I know many people don't like him, but how about at least a semblance of some sort of fairness?

Don't get me wrong at all...I like Jack, though I don't like a lot of his choices, it's evident the type of person he WANTS to be, and he's striving any way he can to get there. He's just not very good at it sometimes, but I think by series end, he'll definitely be one of the heroes. Forgive the terminology, but I'm not really one for political correctness or goodthink. Distorting the truth a little or a lot, regardless of the reason is a lie. It's not an accusation, merely a definition of the word. I'm not calling Jack a LIAR, I'm saying in this instance, either the story he told us in the pilot, and later in season 3 had a bit of a lie in it, in that he was putting himself in the position of his father and removing his father from the story, which IS a bit of a lie, OR that he was telling Kate the story EXACTLY how it happened, but due to the shenanigans that went on in 1977, there are ripples in the time continuum that have CHANGED that story to a degree such that Christian DID end up in the operating room, but was not there before.

This poll was not an attack on Jack, this poll was a question to you fellow Lost-heads whether or not you think that white flaah meant time changed, and a positing that we may have seen hints of that in a story that was major enough to span into 3 seasons now. I find it hard to believe that for five years we get little reminders here and there of this story and then all of a sudden they throw Christian in there out of the blue without addressing the discrepancy at some point. I think this also ties into the 'discrepancies' that people have been pointing out throughout the season, something Lost is generally know to avoid pretty well. I was firmly ensconsed in the WHH group for the entirety of the season, and still think there is a strong argument to be made, but the fact that all of these strange things that we've HEARD of occurring one way seem to be occurring in slightly different ways when we actually see them COULD be attributed to unreliable narrators, or it could be attributed to the fact that these people are relating these things in their personal present, and the detonation of the bomb will cause ripples in the past these people have experienced, making subtle changes here and there that add up to a drastic change somewhere around 2007.

But again, this is not a Jack-bashing thread. Jack's only unforgivable sin in my eyes is to base any of his decisions on Kate. Other than that, I think he's a pretty straight up dood.

I think Jack just edited his father out of the story. That way, instead of a story about his father belittling him, it became about how Jack persevered.

This is how I saw it.

I see no evidence of a timeline change. You guys gotta remember that in season 1 Jack was still dealing with his fathers death, so it makes sense he wouldn't talk about his dad with some woman he just met. He told the story to calm her down, since the count to 5 strategy did work during the surgery.

I hear you, enigma. And while the time ripple idea is certainly interesting (and does have a bit of credence, considering the number of times we've seen slightly altered scenes this season) I don't know whether it will pan out at this stage. I'd rather put an end to the TT, and focus on ending the story in a satisfying way myself.

Apologies if my last post came across accusatory, that wasn't the intent. And I agree with you about not liking Jack basing his decisions purely on Kate. I don't think he does, though. The bomb wasn't all about her, IMO. :)

Originally Posted by What Would Jeff Do
I think Jack just edited his father out of the story. That way, instead of a story about his father belittling him, it became about how Jack persevered.


This is how I saw it.


this isn't how i saw it, but i can certainly learn to understand it that way! thanks!