05-15-2009, 01:54 AM
The idea was touched upon this season indirectly with the time travel paradox. Can human variables change the Past-Present to ultimately change the Future? My theory is not to look at Jacob & Esua as black & white good & evil, but rather look at them in the free will v fate. Jacob may be construed as the proponent of Fate, with some of the interactions with the young Oceanic passengers, but the statement to Ben "you can choose", & the progress statement in the beginning, makes me believe that this is not the case.
A "Loophole" denotes that there are strict rules to story, Esua may abide by them being the proponent of destiny & that is why he is not destined to kill Jacob, the loophole is Ben killing/stabbing Jacob of his own free will. So Jacob making the " you can choose " statement to Ben was him actually sticking it to Esua.
05-15-2009, 02:15 AM
I’m not a regular poster so please don’t beat me up . :rolleyes:
I have long been Iinterested in what the core storyline will turn out to represent since I heard the interviews after season 1 about how the show was conceived and developed in the first place.
If I recall the story correctly,(details are probably not perfect ) JJ Abrams was asked if he would be interested in developing a pilot for ABC around a plane crash and they hired Damon L also to work on a sample script for a pilot. Those 2 went separately over a weekend to flesh out ideas and got together after the weekend. When asked if he had some ideas about the show, JJ Abrams said something like “actually I do” and Damon L brought the idea of “the island itself being a separate character ” - they compared notes and decided to proceed with writing and shooting the pilot.
What this says to me is that the underlying “big picture” or core storyline was pretty much conceived and agreed upon over just a few days. So..it has really got to be something pretty simple like they were in purgatory, they were in an alternate universe, the island was a horrible psych experiment gone wrong, it was all a dream (!), it is all in autistic Aaron’s mind, it is a time loop, they are in an alternative universe, it is an epic battle between two forces - be it good v evil, science v faith, destiny v freewill, or whatever. Once the overlying (underlying?) plot was agreed upon and the big picture story arc was planned, the details on how to unfold that story could be worked out and filled in and could allow adjustment for any tangents, dare I say variables, or additional developments that come about as the result of a 5 year creative process. That said ---
My personal 2 cents is that the “big picture” is presenting the question of “is the future a product of destiny or is it made as a result of freewill decisions”. If TPTB later decide to further quantify destiny and freewill with further values of good and evil and/or have science and faith also serve as examples of destiny or freewill in action, that works too.
I came back to this idea after the first scene in the finale last night:
Jacob and Black Shirt Dude (BSD) are in white and black shirts - like the backgammon pieces. They are the forces of destiny vs freewill. In the first scene, Jacob summoned and wanted the Black Rock to come to the island so that he could demonstrate what people do with freewill and Black Shirt Dude stated that they always blow it so there is no point in bringing them to the island because it is always man’s destiny to muck it up with ego and violence.
It I had to choose, although there are arguments for and against, I'm thinking Jacob is freewill and BSD is destiny. Examples:
BSD set up the ultimate Destiny believer (LOCKE) for his "loophole" of using his body or energy to get out of being somehow entrapped (was Black Shirt in cabin saying "help me", not Jacob? He needed Locke to help him by using his body as a vessel to get out of his imprisoned state)
Major ramifications of the episode come from Juliet "changing her mind" - Freewill
Jacob told Hurley that he didn’t have to go back but should/could go back to the island if he chose to-Freewill
Jack told Kate that whatever happens to Aaron would be ok b/c it would be the product of Clair's choice - Destiny
"what's done is done” as illustrated by Daniel F have had major life changes, including getting killed, when they realize that choices do impact or alter the course of the future - choices are the variables. Before he believed that you had to have a Constant – something that doesn’t change - (destiny) to set the future, but the new thinking is that the future can be changed bc of variables (choices)
Rose and Bernard make the point that no matter what the timeline is, people will still/always want to shoot each other (as if it is inevitable) Destiny
Ironically, Rose and Bernard also survived because they defied destiny by not joining the group and living successfully as the result of their choice to not follow the rest – Freewill
Also ironically, Rose and Bernard say “if we die, we die” - Destiny
Sawyer says "a man does what he does bc he wants something for himself" - Freewill
Jack is willing to change the past and never meet Kate post crash bc he now believes that "it was meant to be" - Destiny
· Jacob's last breath was to tell Ben he had a choice to stab him or not - Freewill
In the opening scene conversation BSD says that men always “come, fight, corrupt and destroy” so future is always going to be the same – Destiny
· Daniel makes some comment about if they have thought through their plans to see if “doing nothing was what is supposed to happen” setting off the bomb could cause victory or defeat to either the destiny or the freewill argument. Jack feels that he needs to detonate the bomb to fulfill his destiny or purpose regardless of the consequences but also the mere act of detonating the bomb and not abiding by “whatever happens, happens” and “dead is dead” creates a new variable, and therefore Jack’s freewill decision has altered destiny – perhaps forever.
Could the future be a product of the outcomes not just destiny or just freewill but rather a combination of the choices we make within our destines?
he titles of all or most of the shows indicate that they are showing something to do with consequences of destiny or freewill.
Dead is Dead – destiny
Follow the Leader – destiny
Whatever Happened Happened - destiny
The Variable – freewill
Because you Left – consequence of freewill choices
The Lie – consequence of freewill choice to lie which were right after episode of
]The Constant – destiny
Sacrifice – is a sacrifice someone’s destiny or freewill? Charlies’ sacrifice was his choice but also “no matter what I do brother, you are gonna die” his destiny. Same as Jack’s decision to blow the bomb, same as Bernard and Rose’s sacrifice to live apart from everyone and not leave the island. ]Jacob and BSD can't kill each other bc that would be cheating and not prove that the final outcome (and no, I have no idea what that is) was either from destiny or as the result of specific choices.
We could go on and ask if the larger question is if the writers are purposely attributing destiny and freewill with the values of Good and Evil and/or having science and faith represent one side of the argument.
Examples of Jacob/Freewill as “good
He’s in white
Ben – follower of Jacob always says “we are the good guys”
Examples of Jacob/Freewill as “bad”
Where do we start?
Examples of BSD as “good”
BSD chose Christian as another "vessel"
The new group with BSD – wearing black shirts too say “we are the good guys”
Examples of BSD as “bad”
Frank says to BSD followers “those who usually say they are the good guys are usually actually the bad guys”
]Ok, that’s my 318 worth………………
]Let me have it! :redface:
FYI: in case you saw this post in science v faith thread:
I put this originally in a different thread - I thought it belonged here - don't worry that I'm gonna post this long post in other threads :lipsseal:
05-15-2009, 02:40 AM
Cool thanks !
I was going to incorporate Jack's decision in this episode also, but you summed it up, He wanted to fulfill his destiny by making a decision to change his fate.
Also Ben's choice was directed by John/Esua when he said do what I told you to do.
As you say the whole show is about decisions I remember several people John Hugo all saying the Island wants us to.. They are not masters of their own Destiny.
05-15-2009, 03:45 AM
I think that the answer will ultimately be that the future is a convergence of destiny and free will as outlined in the book Jacob was reading while waiting for Locke to fall out the window. People have listed links to the article that explains the doctrine that outlines this philosophy as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin
Also - duh
The end promo says