Working on the premise that The Smoke Monster is actually Esau and that he is capable of taking the form of people that have died on the island....

It is very interesting to think that Esau, as smokie, let Ben live so he could threat him, as Alex, to kill him if he didn't do what Locke told him to. And just happens that that Locke was also Esau, who wanted to kill Jacob so badly!!!

Brilliant!

This guy is even a better manipulator than Ben!!!

I agree that Esau is Smoky. But that means Smoky acts on-island and off-island at the same time. We've already see that it can separate into several pieces, but this sure does extend its known powers.

And along these lines, it was Esau/Smokey who told Richard to tell real Locke he had to die to bring the Losties back...

And along these lines, it was Esau/Smokey who told Richard to tell real Locke he had to die to bring the Losties back...

yeah!

If Locke hadn't died, Esau wouldn't have been able to take his form in order to convince Ben to kill Jacob.

I actually feel very sorry for Locke. Don't you guys????:frown:


Now the word 'substitute', as Eloise put it, takes a whole new meaning....

Working on the premise that The Smoke Monster is actually Esau and that he is capable of taking the form of people that have died on the island....

It is very interesting to think that Esau, as smokie, let Ben live so he could threat him, as Alex, to kill him if he didn't do what Locke told him to. And just happens that that Locke was also Esau, who wanted to kill Jacob so badly!!!

Brilliant!

This guy is even a better manipulator than Ben!!!

I would amend the bold part to be "dead bodies on the island"...Locke died off island, but the body was brought back. Yemi off island, but body reached the island. Christian Sheppard as well (if you believe that's been Smokey as well).

Yeah, the whole Esau reveal makes me look back through everything to see where his influence was felt. With the above amendment, now it makes sense why Locke's body had to come back...so Esau could take his form. But who gave those instructions to Ben?

you are right about Locke dying off the island, though.....


mmmm


Perhaps it is people that are now dead but have been on the island at some point and 'scanned' by Smokie?

I believe that the Smokie is waaaay older than Jabob or Esau. But Esau learned how to take over Smokie and use him (it) at his favour.

Here comes 100% disagreement, based on the following.

If Esau is Locke & Smokey...then why is he so very surprised when Ben tells him that he will do whatever he asks because Alex told him to or else?

If Locke = Esau = Smokey, there should be no surprise there. Locke should have already known that's what he (As Alex) told Ben.

Ergo: Esau Locke is not Smokey

Here comes 100% disagreement, based on the following.

If Esau is Locke & Smokey...then why is he so very surprised when Ben tells him that he will do whatever he asks because Alex told him to or else?

If Locke = Esau = Smokey, there should be no surprise there. Locke should have already known that's what he (As Alex) told Ben.

Ergo: Esau Locke is not Smokey
Esau was playing a role. He needed to act surprise so Ben woudln't suspect. Ben doesn't know that Locke knew about his conversation with 'ALex'.

Is Esau really smokey ?
I don't know. I mean we did see Ben summon the smoke monster to fight off Kimmy and his commandos. And it's not intelligent enough to get over that sonic fence ?

Esau was playing a role. He needed to act surprise so Ben woudln't suspect. Ben doesn't know that Locke knew about his conversation with 'ALex'.
I'm still going to disagree. There is no need to act surprised. Ben is gonna do what Locke says regardless.

If Locke had simply come up in that conversation and said, BTW Ben..you're going to kill Jacob because (the list the reasons he did) the outcome would be the same. Ben is going to do what Locke says there is no need to pretend not to know.

Alternative theory here: Esau is not Smokey. Smokey is part of or a manifestation of The Island. A protector of the Island, if you will. Now, obviously Smokey was on Esau's side here, or at least against Jacob. What does that say for Jacob? Maybe Smokey's insistance that Ben help "Locke" is less proof that Smokey=Esau and more proof that Jacob is not working towards the good of the Island, and the Island is trying to correct this. I think the dynamic of "Jacob is Good, Esau is Bad" that we've been presented with is not that simple, if not straight wrong. Things very rarely are that simple on the Island.

Plus, assuming that Esau and the Smoke monster are one and the same is kind of a stretch, considering the lack of evidence.

The lack of evidence? Let's see... we've theorized for seasons now that smokie can take the shape of dead bodies on the island (Christian, Yemi, etc) and we're introduced to 'Esau' in the beginning of this episode only to discover it was in fact him taking the shape of Locke (whose dead body is also on the island) -- gee, just like the smoke monster. The smoke monster that has been there to manipulate circumstances towards the scene where Jacob is stabbed, through the entire series. I'd say it's clear that Esau is at the very least controlling smokie, but unless we're supposed to believe the smoke monster was just hiding out while Yemi, Alex, etc all made their appearances, I think it makes more sense that they are one and the same rather than master and dog.

Don't forget all of "Locke's" convenient disappearances whenever the smoke monster appeared in the latter half of this season. We know Locke is 'Esau'. Why else would he vanish unless he had to become the smoke monster and ditch the Locke facade to do so?

[quote=Krys Nyteshade;2186021I think the dynamic of "Jacob is Good, Esau is Bad" that we've been presented with is not that simple, if not straight wrong. Things very rarely are that simple on the Island.[/quote]
I agree with this. I'm having trouble seeing Jacob as a good guy... When I saw him he didn't come off as a good guy in the least bit, kind of a jerk, really.

The lack of evidence? Let's see... we've theorized for seasons now that smokie can take the shape of dead bodies on the island (Christian, Yemi, etc) and we're introduced to 'Esau' in the beginning of this episode only to discover it was in fact him taking the shape of Locke (whose dead body is also on the island) -- gee, just like the smoke monster. The smoke monster that has been there to manipulate circumstances towards the scene where Jacob is stabbed, through the entire series. I'd say it's clear that Esau is at the very least controlling smokie, but unless we're supposed to believe the smoke monster was just hiding out while Yemi, Alex, etc all made their appearances, I think it makes more sense that they are one and the same rather than master and dog.

Don't forget all of "Locke's" convenient disappearances whenever the smoke monster appeared in the latter half of this season. We know Locke is 'Esau'. Why else would he vanish unless he had to become the smoke monster and ditch the Locke facade to do so?

I was thinking about this today (away from the internet, but your post pretty much covers the points) and it does seem more plausable the more I think about it. It didn't really come together for me until I realized that "Locke" walked away before Ben saw Alex/Smokey under the Temple.

I still think it's equally likely that Smokey and Esau are two seperate entities working towards the same goal, and personally I'd prefer it that way, but I can definately see where this theory comes from now. Very interesting.

That was one of the first things I noticed when I started piecing everything together, Fierro. Is Ben now expendable, or does he still have another role to be a part of?

man in black=smokey = fake alex who tells ben to follow fake locke/man in black i.e himself=ben following fake locke and killing jacob. i 100% believe this.

I'm still going to disagree. There is no need to act surprised. Ben is gonna do what Locke says regardless.

If Locke had simply come up in that conversation and said, BTW Ben..you're going to kill Jacob because (the list the reasons he did) the outcome would be the same. Ben is going to do what Locke says there is no need to pretend not to know.


Although I agree with Fierro's responce, I'll add this as well: We the audience still had to think that Locke didnt know anything about Ben and Alex's meeting.

It's interesting to see the different arguments in this, but I believe there was necessity for Pseudo-Locke to act as though he didn't know about the Alex/ Smokey apparition.

Ben, as we have proved time and time again, is a very smart man. Esau/ Smokey needed to fool Ben completely because if anything was off about Locke, Ben would see it straight away.

I hope to re-watch this season to note how many times Locke disappeared and Smokey appeared and also if any ghostly apparitions of Christian or anyone else was present when Pseudo-Locke was present.

In the temple just before Ben sees smokey, he looks at an old drawing of the crocodile faced guy beckoning smokey. I reckon it is his pet/emissary/assistant.
http://www.getlostpodcastmedia.com/wp-content/gallery/5x12-glyphs/c-users-thad-pictures-lost-season-5-5x12-5x1200001.jpg

Working on the premise that The Smoke Monster is actually Esau and that he is capable of taking the form of people that have died on the island....

This seems to leave Emily Linus' appearance unexplained.

This seems to leave Emily Linus' appearance unexplained.
that's a good point MJ. Her vision was the beginning of the manipulation of Ben, and she neither died on, was buried in, or ever alive on the island to our knowledge. It's possible her ashes were there. Her picture was in Ben's room and certainly in his mind, maybe that was enough. Kate's horse was not buried on the island, nor was Dave. (Do you guys think Anti-Jacob or possibly Jacob caused Emily's early birth and subsequent death? How early did the fucking up of Ben's life start?)

I think this explains the white shoe/black shoe Christians too. The mobisode where Christian tells Vincent that Jack has work to do, I'm thinking that might have been Jacob at work. What color were the shoes of the Christian that almost ran Jack off the cliff before Locke saved him? What about the Christian that showed Jack the water when they were running out?

that's a good point MJ. Her vision was the beginning of the manipulation of Ben, and she neither died on, was buried in, or ever alive on the island to our knowledge. It's possible her ashes were there. Her picture was in Ben's room and certainly in his mind, maybe that was enough. Kate's horse was not buried on the island, nor was Dave. (Do you guys think Anti-Jacob or possibly Jacob caused Emily's early birth and subsequent death? How early did the clucking up of Ben's life start?)

I think this explains the white shoe/black shoe Christians too. The mobisode where Christian tells Vincent that Jack has work to do, I'm thinking that might have been Jacob at work. What color were the shoes of the Christian that almost ran Jack off the cliff before Locke saved him? What about the Christian that showed Jack the water when they were running out?

Multiple Christians? I hadn't thought of that.

Multiple Christians? I hadn't thought of that.
Yes, the Christian that lured Claire away, convinced Locke to turn the wheel, visited Jack back in the real world and spoke to Sun and Frank, he had dark shoes.

But the early appearances of Christian had him wearing those trademark white shoes. Considering the interplay of black and white on the show, it may be significant.

Yes, the Christian that lured Claire away, convinced Locke to turn the wheel, visited Jack back in the real world and spoke to Sun and Frank, he had dark shoes.

But the early appearances of Christian had him wearing those trademark white shoes. Considering the interplay of black and white on the show, it may be significant.

you know? that might be VERY significant...

Not long ago I posted a theory saying that when flight 815 crashed, 2 smoke monsters rushed to the scene trying to get to Christian's corpse to possess it....

Evidence?

The fact that all the survivors where looking left to right and right to left when they heard the monster that first night.

Now, we might theorize that those two smoke monster were Jacob (WSM=white smoke monster) and Esau (BSM=Black Smoke Monster).

Jacob got to him first that night. That is why Crhistian was wearing WHITE shoes.

This might also explain Locke's first encounter with the monster...

Remember that he said that he had looked into the eyes of the island and he had seen something beautiful?
Well, I am proposing that what he saw was not the Black Smoke Monster, but the White Smoke Monster, in other words, Jacob.

He later described it to Ecko as a white bright light, right?;)

Then at some point, Jacob stopped impersonating Christian and Esau took his place.

When and Why? I don't know...

But I think that scene from cabin fever in which Hurley sees Christian AND another person in the room holds the key.

That Christian might have been already Esau and the eye might have been Jacob's.