Jacob is the Interventionist. He provides a gentle nudge, here or there, to manipulate certain outcomes. Those who are nudged are unaware at the time of the intervention. The intervention may have positive or negative entailments (or both) for those who are bumped. The intervention is like making sure that the Mousetrap game continues to work.

Esau is the Confidence Man. He speaks with a forked tongue... and through those who speak ambiguously. In that ambiguity, the Message speaks to the heart of the listener, while still preserving a choice in interpretation. Esau loves Ben, because he's always mixing truths and falsehoods, allowing listeners to hear what they want to hear.

Neither is good, neither is bad. But how would you feel if you ran into either? Getting secret messages, or a nudge here or there. Would you feel manipulated? Conned? If your life fell apart for a greater good, such as the salvation of humanity, would it make a difference?

Yes. Awesome. Thank you.I like this. Now we just need to know why.

Jacob is the Interventionist. He provides a gentle nudge, here or there, to manipulate certain outcomes. Those who are nudged are unaware at the time of the intervention. The intervention may have positive or negative entailments (or both) for those who are bumped. The intervention is like making sure that the Mousetrap game continues to work.

Esau is the Confidence Man. He speaks with a forked tongue... and through those who speak ambiguously. In that ambiguity, the Message speaks to the heart of the listener, while still preserving a choice in interpretation. Esau loves Ben, because he's always mixing truths and falsehoods, allowing listeners to hear what they want to hear.

jane, i really like this view of Jacob and 'Esau'. Very insightful as usual :)

I think you're right on... but I wonder that Jacob may be conning the confidence man?

Neither is good, neither is bad. But how would you feel if you ran into either? Getting secret messages, or a nudge here or there. Would you feel manipulated? Conned? If your life fell apart for a greater good, such as the salvation of humanity, would it make a difference?

I'm ok with sacrifice for the greater good (at least on paper;)). But I'd like some Revelation about that purpose, and I'd like to know the person behind this purpose... both the purpose and the person have to be worth it.

That's what bothers me about Locke's demise... is Jacob's purpose worth it? is Jacob worth it? Or is there a higher cause beyond Jacob's? Hoping this is the case.

Now we just need to know why.

Why has the Goddess statue been desecrated, and removed from Jacob's tapestry? Perhaps it's time to consult the Oracle of Delphi...


I wonder that Jacob may be conning the confidence man?

The Confidence-Man now thinks there won't be any more interventions. Finally, the face of humanity will be revealed to itself, a face without beauty.

Jacob's tapestry shows the Eye connected to a number of dedicants, a reception of illumination. His plan is to have the Losties take on the role as interventionists? Hmmm, and what about the Whispers?


I'm ok with sacrifice for the greater good (at least on paper;)). But I'd like some Revelation about that purpose, and I'd like to know the person behind this purpose... both the purpose and the person have to be worth it.

There are problems with a Revelation. For the one who receives it, it kind of takes away the Choice; at the very least, it strikes an existential dagger to the core. For those who don't receive it, it's completely unreliable. Perhaps that's why sacrifices are asked for, because they ameliorate (though not entirely solve) the problem of lying. If Jacob is willing to sacrifice himself for a Revelation, would that be more convincing?

God loves You as He loved Jacob.

A lot of people are okay with sacrifice on paper, and especially when it's the sacrifice of other people.

Great thread, Jane!


I'm ok with sacrifice for the greater good (at least on paper;)). But I'd like some Revelation about that purpose, and I'd like to know the person behind this purpose... both the purpose and the person have to be worth it.

That's what bothers me about Locke's demise... is Jacob's purpose worth it? is Jacob worth it? Or is there a higher cause beyond Jacob's? Hoping this is the case.


Nadia's death was disturbing to me. Jacob left the scene in a way that seemed like he didn't care.

On this assessment I prefer the Man in Black.

His game allows that you make your own stuff ups - and I for one am unafraid to fess up to them; my interpretation: mea culpa.

But this Jacob ...poking about in your life to suit an outcome he's determined?

I feel no romance or grandeur - way to tell an epic tale for sure; big sweeping themes, very nice ...but outside of fairy tales?

No thanks.

Mankind should be able to live - or die - having come out from under the yolk of the gods tyranny.

On this assessment I prefer the Man in Black.

His game allows that you make your own stuff ups - and I for one am unafraid to fess up to them; my interpretation: mea culpa.

But this Jacob ...poking about in your life to suit an outcome he's determined?

Well, before you go picking one over the other, consider that MiB tries to deceive with an intention. Specifically, an intention to uncover everything ugly and distorted in your life. MiB wants you to fail, wants you to suffer, and doesn't want you making connections to other people. The nature of his game interferes with developing relationships, you aren't seeing the other, only yourself. There is something of value here, but you're playing with fire.

Jacob wants you to have bliss and beauty. Jacob favors character interconnectedness, too... for there is a kind of power in the domino/butterfly effect. He's less sympathetic to the likes of Ben and Sayid, partly because of the attitudes those characters have had towards other people. In a way, he's a bit of gamble. He throws the dice, and if your number doesn't come up, it doesn't come up. And sometimes the number that comes up may not be to your liking. There is something of value here, but you may be in danger of drowning.


Mankind should be able to live - or die - having come out from under the yolk of the gods tyranny.Juliet runs away from her parents, yelling that she doesn't want to know... and this helps Juliet to have the despair necessary to trigger Jughead. Jacob does not intervene; he knows this is necessary to Desmond's becoming.

Consider James T. Kirk and the Kobayashi Maru, a training program designed to put the trainee into a no-win situation. Kirk plays both sides, loses both times, and decides that a rigged game is no game. He cheats, going behind the scenes to fix the computer in his favor. Kirk doesn't believe in the no-win scenario. Kirk is an interventionist.

The possibility exists that the "nudges" are that Jacob chose the people he did because they were going to die anyhow. What if he chose based on knowledge that flight 815 was going to end up in the Sunda Trench or that each of them was destined to die.

It's possible that was the reason they all ended up on the flight. Remember Hurley's mad dash, it was like someone or thing wanted to keep him off that plane. He's the only one Jacob hinted at he wasn't cursed but blessed.

As far as nudges and cons......I want to think that I would make the choice based on what would be best for the most but until faced with the situation I can't be sure.

The possibility exists that the "nudges" are that Jacob chose the people he did because they were going to die anyhow. What if he chose based on knowledge that flight 815 was going to end up in the Sunda Trench or that each of them was destined to die.

We are all destined to die. So is the Universe, through the magic of entropy. In the Lostverse, though, dead may be dead, but it's also more than dead. In death there is the Return, the opportunity to go back and do it again, and perhaps with the opportunity to reach a more meaningful conclusion. The numbers, the odds, they remain the same, but there's room to rearrange the threads. Perhaps to live the life we've always wanted, we have to die the death we want as well?


It's possible that was the reason they all ended up on the flight. Remember Hurley's mad dash, it was like someone or thing wanted to keep him off that plane. He's the only one Jacob hinted at he wasn't cursed but blessed.

There's always a crash of 815, with no one surviving the cockpit, 23 surviving the tail section, and some forty-odd people surviving the fuselage. Some on that flight would always want to make that flight, like John Locke. There are others, like Liam Pace, that would prefer an exchange of fates, and exchange which Charlie is more than willing to take on, in the end.


As far as nudges and cons......I want to think that I would make the choice based on what would be best for the most but until faced with the situation I can't be sure.

You can't know what's best for most, yet a Choice must always be made. A Choice is a Leap of Faith.

The Confidence-Man now thinks there won't be any more interventions. Finally, the face of humanity will be revealed to itself, a face without beauty.

Jacob's tapestry shows the Eye connected to a number of dedicants, a reception of illumination. His plan is to have the Losties take on the role as interventionists?
I like this. But I can't help but feel Confidence-Man is gonna get taken down directly as well. (by Jack or Sawyer?)


There are problems with a Revelation. For the one who receives it, it kind of takes away the Choice; at the very least, it strikes an existential dagger to the core. For those who don't receive it, it's completely unreliable. Perhaps that's why sacrifices are asked for, because they ameliorate (though not entirely solve) the problem of lying. If Jacob is willing to sacrifice himself for a Revelation, would that be more convincing?

God loves You as He loved Jacob.

Yes, revelation can come in the form of word, action, or a Person. The choice remains.

But God demonstrates his own love for us in this...

A lot of people are okay with sacrifice on paper, and especially when it's the sacrifice of other people.

i'm ok with the idea of sacrificing myself for the greater good on paper... when the rubber meets the road it gets tougher... hm, now this is getting personal ;)

Jane, that final statement is the whole picture of LOST. Faith based on truth would be the easest answer, but then truth can be many things to many people. My faith does not make it true or the best choice, only my best assumption of best. Faith can be placed on the wrong information. I still can not be sure that anyone can say for sure that they will make the heroicchoice over self. We haven't reached that pinnacle yet imo.

I can't help but feel Confidence-Man is gonna get taken down directly as well. (by Jack or Sawyer?)

Jacob's death may presage CM's, for everything on Lost recurs. Ah, but what of the mirror? Both CM and Jacob may be resurrected, if the Island has Her way.

Why does the Confidence Man want to show us our shadows, our dark sides? Besides finding value in the shadow itself, it shows that for all his duplicity and deception, the Confidence Man actually values honesty. Look in the mirror...


i'm ok with the idea of sacrificing myself for the greater good on paper... when the rubber meets the road it gets tougher... hm, now this is getting personal ;)It is tough, and it is personal. It's a Leap of Faith, to catch a falling star by the tail and riding it back to the beginning, without guarantee. Charlie's done it more than once, and he keeps doing it because he has Faith in the power of Love.


Jane, that final statement is the whole picture of LOST. Faith based on truth would be the easest answer, but then truth can be many things to many people. My faith does not make it true or the best choice, only my best assumption of best. Faith can be placed on the wrong information. I still can not be sure that anyone can say for sure that they will make the heroicchoice over self. We haven't reached that pinnacle yet imo.

You can't even say that you would make that Choice until faced with that opportunity yourself, and such opportunities usually come unbidden.

What would be the greatest good? Would it not come from everyone having the opportunity to have a Happy Ending?

Jacob's death may presage CM's, for everything on Lost recurs. Ah, but what of the mirror? Both CM and Jacob may be resurrected, if the Island has Her way.

I've thrown this out there once before, just for kicks....

Last scene of Lost: Ben and Jack sitting on the beach by the fire.
BEN: Do you know how badly I want to kill you?
JACK: Yes.
BEN: One of these days, I'll find a loophole.
JACK: When you do, I'll be right here.
<LOST *Bong*>

Why does the Confidence Man want to show us our shadows, our dark sides? Besides finding value in the shadow itself, it shows that for all his duplicity and deception, the Confidence Man actually values honesty. Look in the mirror...

seeing our shadows is necessary. as is hope for change. they need to converge.

does he value honesty? or does he want to blow it all to....


It's a Leap of Faith, to catch a falling star by the tail and riding it back to the beginning, without guarantee. Charlie's done it more than once, and he keeps doing it because he has Faith in the power of Love.

i think you Lost me on this one Jane. :) it only ends once...

Well, before you go picking one over the other, consider that MiB tries to deceive with an intention. Specifically, an intention to uncover everything ugly and distorted in your life. You think? all I saw so far was his intention to kill Jacob. Our pains - although exploited - are (perhaps :biggrin: ) mere tools in his hands, not an end in their own right.

Jacob wants you to have bliss and beauty. Yet he draws us (as represented by our players) into situations of conflict over recourses, fear, mistrust and despair. I didn't see MIB call no boat.

Consider James T. Kirk and the Kobayashi Maru, a training program designed to put the trainee into a no-win situation. Kirk plays both sides, loses both times, and decides that a rigged game is no game. He cheats, going behind the scenes to fix the computer in his favor. Kirk doesn't believe in the no-win scenario. Kirk is an interventionist.I've seen this scene; but Kirk - much as I dislike the gung-ho, up-himself, holier-than-thou, oops!-there-goes-my-shirt, toss-pot - is a man. A person.

And I laud him his inventiveness, never say die attitude and refusal to accept the inevitable. He defied

..and found a way. Hallelujah! (I dig acceptance too :biggrin: I have no difficulty whatever holding seemingly opposing beliefs simultaneously - all stops on the spectrum as far as I'm concerned)

And to hell with the gods.

They can all go join their dead brethren in Inrrelevantville up Forgotten Lane. I'll make my own way in this wonderful mess of opportunities we humans call the World, ta.

It's a Leap of Faith, to catch a falling star by the tail and riding it back to the beginning, without guarantee. Charlie's done it more than once, and he keeps doing it because he has Faith in the power of Love.i think you Lost me on this one Jane. :) it only ends once...

Tell that to Charlie after he died on the Hanging Tree.


You think? all I saw so far was his intention to kill Jacob. Our pains - although exploited - are (perhaps :biggrin: ) mere tools in his hands, not an end in their own right.

Regardless of the intentions of the Confidence Man, there is something of value here. Dangerous, but valuable. Trust, fidelity, confidence, faith... where do you put yours?

Suppose you found yourself on that strange Island. You get visions, signs, see people who shouldn't be there... how would you react? And then your dreams start coming true. What's up with that? It's a mystery...

There's more than one way to see.


[Jacob] draws us (as represented by our players) into situations of conflict over recourses, fear, mistrust and despair. I didn't see MIB call no boat.

In a stochastic universe, the boat will come sooner or later, and those who step on the boat do so of their own free will, with no more impingement than a bump in the hallway. Perhaps everyone on that boat, and on that plane, is grateful for the opportunity, and those who were not managed not to make the trip. Jacob's tapestry says, May the gods grant you your bliss... Do not the people themselves bring their own fears, mistrusts, despairs?


I've seen this scene; but Kirk - much as I dislike the gung-ho, up-himself, holier-than-thou, oops!-there-goes-my-shirt, toss-pot - is a man. A person.

So, it's okay for people to cheat, but not the gods?


I'll make my own way in this wonderful mess of opportunities we humans call the World, ta.

Wise words, but we are born much too young in this world. No one makes their own way without assistance nor some deception from time to time. We have so much to learn, and so many who know so much to teach. That said, some ways require less help than others.

The way of the Island is not for the feint of heart, but may be more amendable to those who humble themselves in the arms of the Wild, only to join hands and lift each other up. Sometimes it takes a conspiracy...

The way of the Island is not for the feint of heart, but may be more amendable to those who humble themselves in the arms of the Wild, only to join hands and lift each other up. Sometimes it takes a conspiracy...

Avatars. Always trying to be so Human...

Avatars. Always trying to be so Human...

People reaching for the Divine, and the Divine striving to manifest...