Hello and happy July 4 to all!

I've been doing more lurking & reading than posting recently, hoping to wait until I have some take on Lost that I haven't addressed already.

I just came across a reference to 17th Century Spanish playwrite Pedro Calderon de la Barca and his drama La vida es sueno [Life Is a Dream], in which the King of Poland imprisons his infant son, under care, immediately after his birth, because an oracle had predicted the son, as heir to the throne. would be calamitous to the future of the country.

Troubled in part by conscience, the King confesses to the court that his son lives [when the young man has reached maturity. The King leavs it to the court to decide whether he shall be heir to the throne. The court votes in the young man's favor; and, upon his release, the young man goes berserk, killing one man and attempting rape. Captured and sedated, he is told that his recollections are but a dream, so he can dedicate his future to ruling without guilt - having been given his second chance.

Sorry for the length of this; but for me it helps clear some cobwebs:

1. Virtually everyone on Lost has considerable father issues;

2. Some issues are real and justified, while others are more clouded, those usually due to the revealed "humanity" of the fathers in question;

3. Killing of the father figure is a repeating theme, much like those revealed in Frazer's anthropological study, The Golden Bough, largely marked by slaying of the god, to be resurrected again at the next harvest;

Aside from father issues, we have major characters who have reached a point in their lives where they need a second chance. Something in life [pre-crash] has placed each at a personal crossroads, where lhealth, life, legal or familial, civil or moral issues have them behind the 8 ball in some fashion. We also seem to have other characters whose dedicated purpose is [has been] to guide people where they need to be.

On top of all that, we have an Island that, for all its lushness and beauty, seems incapable of sustaining native-conceived human reproductio, needing imports and transplanted stock to maintain a human presence. In the presence of two opposing forces, one pro and one anti-human, the potential for horror or bliss become staggering for Season 6.

As of this moment, MiB, Jacob, Locke, Benjamin, Eloise and Richard loom large, along with whatever is to be revealed about the Others. I am now inclined to believe that this Island population segment, rather than being soulless zombies, have been initiated into an atavistic, naturalist cult, perhaps with some preternatural powers.

To support this theory, I suggest that Mittelos Laboratories is more than a front. It is a highly advanced cutting-edge research operation devoted to holographics, sound projection, explotation of the micro-and macro contents of the Island's snow globe enclosed atmospherics. It is this faction that creates elements and projections the "Losties" see as spooky, frightening, and unreal.

I see the Others as having traded a degree of their human essence to dedicate and devote themselves to service of the Island, as protectors from exploitation of outsiders, especially those like the Dharma Initiative.

Dhaarma, I believe, used everybody in experiments dedicated solely to game psychology, propaganda, mind control and the possible exploitation of resources. I am always reminded of those pneumatic chute reports piling up in a remote area of the Island, studied by noone, except for tracing the volume of their collective waste mound.

P.S. MiB rules the atavistic, [I]native, defensive, instinctive and perhaps ruthlessly dedicated reclusive Island interests. Their sense of morality, of right and wrong, is closer to Darwinian, overarched by [I]loyalty to pristine Island "virtue." They are initiates into this secretive, protective culture. MiB prefers these dedicated initiates [perhaps granted very extended lives in exchange for devotion], preferring a humanly barren Island of static sterility to the onnoxious rabble of destructive humanity MiB has experienced to date. The Others are not evil, except in the sense that social mores and humanistic niceties take a back seat to Island Darwinian survival.

Jacob sees humanity, evolution, social and moral growth through inquiry, invention, development and successful human reproduction in a "second chance" Eden, in which humanity can feed on all the apples of knowledge they can possibly consume in shared efforts.

In any event, enjoy the Holiday.

Hey, nwf. Great observations regarding fathers and second chances. It's not easy being a dad on this show. I just re-watched In Translation, and neither Sun's nor Jin's dad caught much of a break, despite the drastic differences in their approach to child rearing. Mr. Paik was understandably in Sun's cross-hairs due to his manipulation of Jin, but even Jin's father was essentially disowned by his son, despite his loving and non-judgmental nature.

In the case of Locke, we've been led to believe that the island itself has become a sort of surrogate father for John, filling in the gaps where his own dad (or his own perception of self) fell short. But I'm thinking it's been the MiB talking to John all along. We've been shown that the MiB, like Mr. Paik, is not above resorting to loopholes in order to get his way. Jacob, on the other hand, reminds me more of Jin's father, subtly touching his 'children', and then stepping aside so he doesn't get in the way of their free will.

So, with the opportunity for a second chance, who will the lostaways turn to, given their individual 'daddy issues', and John's experience with the island as a father figure? My guess is...each other. Live together, or die alone, right?

Thanks, BF .... it may be more a matter of stick together or die alone.

I've set myself a summer-fall reading curriculum to be completed by the end of the year and in time for Season 6. I'm still convinced that our Losties and the Others are part of a grand experiment in which MiB and Jacob are the preternatural activators or guides, but which is part of a grand scheme that may underlie the 5 previous seasons with very natural underpinnings.

I have long been cynical about Desmond's special gifts; and I believe I came across something about Desmond, the sickness, and other orientation issues that underscore Lost.

Part way down the link provided is an illustration of molecular dynamics and the force impact distribution patterns observed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecular_dynamics

I believe Island snow-globe atmospherics exert such forces on certain individuals who have not been immunized for ingress or egress relative to Island travels. More sinister, I believe that some entity fully understands this force and its implications for the future of the Island and its inhabitants; and I'm guessing whatever brains are behind this are more Mittelos than Dharma.

Dharma was all curriculum vitae, elaborate experimentation on mind games, elitist, secretive and self-inflated. Whatever force drives other experimentation is, IMVHO, into much deeper stuff done with more lean & mean efficiencies and in a far more clandestine manner.

I'm hoping the big reveal to come is the identity and plan of The Man [Woman] Behind the Lost curtain ..... a real force, not Frank Morgan.

P.S. MiB rules the atavistic, native, defensive, instinctive and perhaps ruthlessly dedicated reclusive Island interests. Their sense of morality, of right and wrong, is closer to Darwinian, overarched by [I]loyalty to pristine Island "virtue." They are initiates into this secretive, protective culture. MiB prefers these dedicated initiates [perhaps granted very extended lives in exchange for devotion], preferring a humanly barren Island of static sterility to the onnoxious rabble of destructive humanity MiB has experienced to date. The Others are not evil, except in the sense that social mores and humanistic niceties take a back seat to Island Darwinian survival.

Jacob sees humanity, evolution, social and moral growth through inquiry, invention, development and successful human reproduction in a "second chance" Eden, in which humanity can feed on all the apples of knowledge they can possibly consume in shared efforts.

This is key

Protecting the island from outsiders, as the Others would seem to be doing, goes along with the MiB's MO.

Opening the island to exploration and human free will follows Jacob's MO.

I think the Others, unknowingly have been serving MiB this entire time.

Richard is the only flaw in this line of logic. He seems to be the sole person who has had contact with the REAL Jacob. He is also advisor of the Others... gently guiding them and selecting their leadership.
Unless it was Jacob's invitation of human free will that lead the first group of Others to decide on their own to serve the island in the way they do. In that case, they aren't serving anyone's intentions.

How many would wish to take on sacred wounds, to endure suffering, that others may have a happy ending?

How many would wish to take on sacred wounds, to endure suffering, that others may have a happy ending?

Hmmmmm.

In the context of the thread, I can see four classes of human being willing to make such an exchange. Lost, I believe, has characters who may qualify to fill each of these slots, which are in many ways interchangeable:

Fanatic: fixated on self, importance of function, motivation, and somehow expectant of ultimate recognition and reward for sufferings endured ................. Benjamin Linus

Vatic: spiritually anointed or beatified by sublime exposure, more victim than victimizer, sure of calling, perhaps truly gifted [or not] a possible catalyst for good, OR a candidate to become a .... martyr ..................John Locke

"Saint:" a truly selfless individualdevoted to promoting good will and doing good works, putting interests of the society above self-interest ....... Juliet???????

Manipulator: may not be human at all, or may simply be clever enough to use humans as puppets to fulfill an agenda .... does not personally endure hardships, but uses "proxies" to suffer for [its; his; her] agenda. ...... MiB, Jacob, Richard Alpert

The holographic "ghosts" are manifestations of the manipuator[s].

Manipulator: may not be human at all, or may simply be clever enough to use humans as puppets to fulfill an agenda .... does not personally endure hardships, but uses "proxies" to suffer for agenda. ...... MiB, Jacob, Richard Alpert

Jacob takes on his own death, so I'm not sure if he fully applies to this category as described. Those who would not personally endure suffering, but only through proxies, are not who I have in mind. They do not take on sacred wounds at all.


Fanatic : fixated on self, importance of function, motivation, and somehow expectant of ultimate recognition and reward for sufferings endured ................. Benjamin Linus

Ben has not demonstrated any concern for the happiness of others. I now see him as someone who might bring about a happy ending not out of that particular intention, but out of his own need for vengeance, his own pathology of making others suffer as a way of achieving his own sense of communion. He takes on wounds for the Island and for himself, but not for other people.


Vatic: spiritually anointed or beatified by sublime exposure, more victim than victimizer, sure of [I]calling, perhaps truly gifted [or not] a possible catalyst for good, OR a candidate to become a .... martyr ..................John Locke

A martyr no longer suffers. What was really driving John was his need for family. That said, I could certainly see him going back and becoming crippled as a way to oust Ben from the Island.


Saint: a truly selfless individual devoted to promoting good will and doing good works, putting interests of the society above self-interest ....... Juliet???????

Juliet runs away from the pain of her parents' divorce. She explodes the bomb out of despair. She runs to the Island to escape her suffering, not to engage it. Juliet doesn't take on sacred wounds, she runs from them.

Ordinary people take on suffering all the time to further the happiness of others, but this does not mean that they are "truly selfless." Being grounded in Self and Other is the real balancing act.

Great thread, nanwynnfan!

Jane, you seem to be describing Jacob perfectly in your question of "who would be willing to take on sacred wounds...that others would have a happy ending."

I personally am of the mindset that the entire scene within his stronghold was not only expected, but engineered by Jacob, who understood that the fate of "his children"/ the Losties/ humanity is the very prize at stake.

For that matter, John Locke, in his having been told that the only way that he could successfully bring back the O6 was to die, was similarly inclined to participate in these sacred wounds...:)

Jacob takes on his own death, so I'm not sure if he fully applies to this category as described. Those who would not personally endure suffering, but only through proxies, are not who I have in mind. They do not take on sacred wounds at all.

Thanks for the response. I was tossing out some types that seemed to have evolved from the scripts.

As for Jacob, if that Being is at least preternatural as some of us believe, he has sacrificed nothing at all in falling on Ben's "sword." He has fulfilled a segment of a strategy, probably playing mind games with MiB [who himself should be onto such stratagems by now. I'm guessing the 'man" we saw as Jacob was a familiar, a proxy to fullfill part of a greater plan.

The Jacob-as-Christ-sacrificed seems just too ham-handed to me; but if it ties back into Egyptian themes and mythologies, the metaphor is rendered a bit more subtle by being set back a bit from the familiar.

"Ben has not demonstrated any concern for the happiness of others. I now see him as someone who might bring about a happy ending not out of that particular intention, but out of his own need for vengeance, his own pathology of making others suffer as a way of achieving his own sense of communion. He takes on wounds for the Island and for himself, but not for other people."

Oh, I think Ben showed concern for Annie. I'd also grant him some wiggle room with his father issues. Young Ben also exhibited empathy for Sayid, not sharing Sayid's sense of past-present-future, as already lived, which ultimately caused his being whisked off to lose his "innocence."

A martyr no longer suffers. What was really driving John was his need for family. That said, I could certainly see him going back and becoming crippled as a way to oust Ben from the Island.

How true. However, what I wrote was that Locke was at risk of becoming a martyr. Once.

Of all the characters, Locke is the only one to my knowledge who has experienced "a Beatific Vision" during his Smoky encounter.

Whether he has been duped for his gullibility [or not] he has been touched at the core by either a sublime calling, a mad hallucination, or an Island atmosphere induced trip of some sort.

While I'm personally rooting for Locke to come up heroic, he may already have been martyred more times than a devout cat; but then, those later incarnations are proxies while the John Locke many of us have come to love RIPs.

Juliet runs away from the pain of her parents' divorce. She explodes the bomb out of despair. She runs to the Island to escape her suffering, not to engage it. Juliet doesn't take on sacred wounds, she runs from them.

I'm guessing that, at Juliet's age, I probably would have reacted in much the same way; or, opting for a more passive-aggressive regimin, might have acted out in seemingly inappropriate ways. I can forgive her her chilish reactions.

Ordinary people take on suffering all the time to further the happiness of others, but this does not mean that they are "truly selfless." Being grounded in Self and Other is the real balancing act.

No doubt there is truth to this observation, Jane; but driving the highways and watching people multi-tasking behind the wheel; shoppers driving carts through supermarket aisles while phoning and speeding; parking carts mid-aisle while rumps take up the rest; or balancing the checkbook or showing photos of trips or grandchildren at the express checkout diminishes one's powers to observe such selflessness.

God bless the golden-rulers and the gifted listeners in conversation; but I agree, much of our benevolence is based in bartering principles.

It struck me that you have someone in mind for bearing the load on Lost? If so, I'd love to see who it is you have in mind, and for what ultimate purpose.