In rewatching, it seemed really clear to me that Claire died in the dharmaville explosion, and Smokey-as-Claire is who Sawyer pulled out. It seemed to take Smokey several hours or a day to fully get control over Claire's body.

Depending on the person, it might take some time to get full control over the body, or maybe they are really reanimated (not just apparitions), and Smokey comes-and-goes (i.e. takes over the body) as he pleases. He can also take over multiple bodies, e.g. Christian and Claire in the cabin (telling Locke to move the Island).

It makes think that Smokey 'infusing' himself into someone really is The Sickness.

Last, I believe he tried to take over Locke since S1, but has not been able to - until he was dead in S5.

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The reason I think Claire died, is the way Miles was interacting with her after the explosion. You really need to see the whole episode. Sawyer said something about her barely being alive, but Miles quickly says something like "don't be too sure about that." Later Miles asks to take the baby, as if he knows something. He then stares at her strangely at the river, and Sawyer gives him a 'restraining order'. Later, Miles can recount that she walked off with 'dad' (workboots Christian). To me, it's the interaction with Miles that seals the deal - she's dead/reanimated=undead, but really you need to watch it.

Yes!

I also think Ben was murdered by Widmore after he arrived in Tunisia the first time... his sacrifice ... and Smokey took Ben over as his clone... Eloise was helping Smokey, not Ben Linus.

I think though if you're dead that Smokey clones the body and so you exist but you have to share your body with him thereafter anytime he wants.

I think the eye colors of a Smokey clone change when examined carefully... especially if he/she is deceitful, and I think that's why Richard stared at John after he said in '54, "Jacob sent me"... to see if he were a Smokey clone...

(http://s834.photobucket.com/albums/zz262/simone5p/LOST/?action=view&current=vlcsnap-1461830.png)Here's a SS of Ben (http://s834.photobucket.com/albums/zz262/simone5p/LOST/?action=view&current=benseyes.png) after Hurley ran into the street to purposefully escape Ben by being arrested... as you watch Ben move away from the light, right eye (viewer's left) becomes very dark.

Mikhail was revitalized a few times... BEN to MIKHAIL: I thought you were dead... this may be an example of Claire's state.... infection takes a while to "awaken" the dead.

I agree that Smokey can sort of take-over the dead- I believe that's what happened with Christian, Yemi, and now Locke- I don't think that's what happened with Claire. And I don't really see that with Ben either. I don't have any good evidence to back that up, because it's mostly up to interpretation.

Yeah, I think that Rousseau was definitely on to something with her whole sickness/"they've been infected" thing. And I'll bet you're right that the Smokey 'infusion process' is a gradual thing, MTA. It seems to me that Smokey, or whoever is controlling Smokey, has tried to exert his influence even among the living. "Dave" did his best to get Hurley to throw himself off that cliff, and in a lot of ways, Hurley's battle with insanity/dissociative disorder may parallel the underlying battle which has been brewing between Jacob and MiB/Smokey.

I remember one of the LOST podcasts. Team Darlton said they have a wall with the photos of all the characters and they are divided in 3 columns: "alive", "dead" and "undead". They also said they have just 3 characters in the "undead" column: Christian, Yemi and Kate's horse (a joke, I guess, they can't really explain the dead horse). Since Yemi was confirmed to be the smoke monster, it makes sense to assume that Christian is the smoke monster, too.
I don't think Claire is the smoke monster, because she and Christian are together in one room. However, Claire could be the MIB. Since Hurley's "discovery" of Jacob's cabin I believe that there are two entities who can possess or morph into bodies.

I remember one of the LOST podcasts. Team Darlton said they have a wall with the photos of all the characters and they are divided in 3 columns: "alive", "dead" and "undead". They also said they have just 3 characters in the "undead" column: Christian, Yemi and Kate's horse (a joke, I guess, they can't really explain the dead horse). Since Yemi was confirmed to be the smoke monster, it makes sense to assume that Christian is the smoke monster, too.
I don't think Claire is the smoke monster, because she and Christian are together in one room. However, Claire could be the MIB. Since Hurley's "discovery" of Jacob's cabin I believe that there are two entities who can possess or morph into bodies.

I think that Smokey is a mystical magical (for now) machine that enables this... so I think more than one person can use Smokey... the changing eye color seems to indicate that at various times, different people are peering out of a Smokey infected clone.

Animals have been Smokey controlled too, like the boar that targeted Sawyer and peed on his shirt, wrecked his tent, and had Sawyer tracking Ethan for an hour thinking his tracks were boar prints.

I think that Smokey is a mystical magical (for now) machine that enables this... so I think more than one person can use Smokey... the changing eye color seems to indicate that at various times, different people are peering out of a Smokey infected clone.

Animals have been Smokey controlled too, like the boar that targeted Sawyer and peed on his shirt, wrecked his tent, and had Sawyer tracking Ethan for an hour thinking his tracks were boar prints.

The Boar was not Smokey controlled.

I just posted that portion of the Podcast last night on another thread.

Official Lost Podcast Transcript March 21, 2008 (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast_transcript/March_21,_2008)
Spoiler tagged it for space.


Carlton Cuse: It's from KBlueLinus: "Monster Forms". Um, basically, this person wants to know if you will comment on what the significance is of these certain things that we've seen on the show, whether they're the Monster, whether they're humans, animals, apparitions. What exactly they are.
Damon Lindelof: So, you're gonna say the name, and I say "monster", "apparition"...
Carlton Cuse: You, you can...
Damon Lindelof: ...or...
Carlton Cuse: Human...
Damon Lindelof: ...or "human".
Carlton Cuse: ...dead...
Damon Lindelof: Yeah. Ok. or whatever...
Carlton Cuse: Whatever, whatever. Its significance, ok? So—
Damon Lindelof: It's just word association.
Carlton Cuse: Word association.
Damon Lindelof: Ok.
Carlton Cuse: Ok, you ready?
Damon Lindelof: Yes.
Carlton Cuse: Ben's mother, Emily.
Damon Lindelof: Apparition.
Carlton Cuse: The wild boar of Sawyer.
Damon Lindelof: Animal.
Carlton Cuse: Spider that paralyzed Nikki.
Damon Lindelof: Monster.
Carlton Cuse: Bird of Hurley.
Damon Lindelof: Oh, I'm not gonna comment on that.
Carlton Cuse: [laughs] Dave.
Damon Lindelof: Uhh... figment of imagination-slash-apparition.
Carlton Cuse: Ok. Yemi.
Damon Lindelof: Monster.
Carlton Cuse: Sayid, Mikhail's cat, Nadia.
Damon Lindelof: Woah, wait.
Carlton Cuse: The cat!
Damon Lindelof: The cat.
Carlton Cuse: The cat was named Nadia.
Damon Lindelof: Oh, animal. And coincidence.
Carlton Cuse: Walt.
[Both laughing]
Damon Lindelof: Walt the person is a person.
Carlton Cuse: Right.
Damon Lindelof: But there are, there are apparitions of Walt that may not be Walt.
Carlton Cuse: Ok.
Damon Lindelof: And also Monster-related.
Carlton Cuse: [chuckling] Excellent. Boone.
Damon Lindelof: Boone? Monster... No.
Carlton Cuse: No.
Damon Lindelof: He's just Boone!
Carlton Cuse: Dead person. He's Boone.
Damon Lindelof: Oh! You mean when he appears in Locke's dream?
Carlton Cuse: Well he's just... he's, he's in a dream.
Damon Lindelof: Dream.
Carlton Cuse: He's "dream".
Damon Lindelof: Yes, he's "dream". It's an outside category.
Carlton Cuse: Exactly. Jack.
Damon Lindelof: Heh. Jack is an apparition. [Carlton laughing] That's gonna be the big twist at the end of this season. He's not only in the future, but he's not real.
Carlton Cuse: No, no. He's making a joke!
Damon Lindelof: Yes.
Carlton Cuse: Kate's horse.
[Both laughing]
Damon Lindelof: We have this—this is actually a funny story—we have this board in the um, in the, in the room. With all the actors—
Carlton Cuse: The writer's room.
Damon Lindelof: In the writers room.
Carlton Cuse: Yeah.
Carlton Cuse: With all the actors who are on the show. All the, all of the Oceanic 815ers. But then, all of the sort of recurs, like Penny Widmore, and Charles Widmore, and...
Carlton Cuse: We have their headhosts...
Damon Lindelof: Yeah exactly.
Carlton Cuse: ...so we can keep track of who we have on the show.
Damon Lindelof: And Matthew Abaddon and...
Carlton Cuse: Sawyer.
Damon Lindelof: ...basically, yeah... so everybody. They go onto a door that says "deceased"; once they die, we move them over there. And then there's the door that says "undead".
Carlton Cuse: Yeah.
Damon Lindelof: And on the undead door there's only three pictures. One of them is...
Carlton Cuse: Christian Shephard.
Damon Lindelof: One of them is Christian Shephard, one of them is Yemi, and the other one is...
Carlton Cuse: Kate's horse.
Damon Lindelof: Kate's horse. [both laughing] Just a picture of a horse. So...
Carlton Cuse: So Kate's horse is...
Damon Lindelof: Undead.
Carlton Cuse: Undead. Ok, thank you. That was good. Very well done.

Yes!

I also think Ben was murdered by Widmore after he arrived in Tunisia the first time... his sacrifice ... and Smokey took Ben over as his clone... Eloise was helping Smokey, not Ben Linus.

I think though if you're dead that Smokey clones the body and so you exist but you have to share your body with him thereafter anytime he wants.


I don't think that's it. The orchid station / donkey wheel makes copies of living beings. If one of those dies, then you have a dead Locke and a live Locke. The dead Locke can then be taken over by smokey.

Ditto Ben, etc.



Mikhail was revitalized a few times... BEN to MIKHAIL: I thought you were dead... this may be an example of Claire's state.... infection takes a while to "awaken" the dead.

Mikhail is an example of multiple reuses of the same corpse by smokey... it explains his injuries still being there, etc. Once you're dead you don't get any more dead. Of course, once Mikhail was exploded that probably puts a stop to THAT. :)

I disagree that Locke was being "taken over", or an attempt was being made to take him over. Locke was duplicated. Why do you need to possess him when you can just copy him?

That said, I do agree that spirits of some sort can possess bodies.
I don't attribute it all to the smoke monster. I think one 'head' (or part) of the smoke monster is "Flocke".

And also, IMO, Claire could not have been killed in the house explosion.
If she's the same entity as "Christian" then why did they show her acting surprised when she saw her "dad"? If she's dead (and I don't think she is) then she would have been killed after Zombie Dad lured her away.

IMO, the case with Ben - because his body physically grew up with him, is that he never died.
Something just jumped in for the ride.

Everything marked with an "S" is smoke and mirrors...

IMO, the case with Ben - because his body physically grew up with him, is that he never died.
Something just jumped in for the ride.

Yep, I think it happened when Ben was taken to the Temple and near death. I forget what Richard said but it was to the effect that he would be changed.

I also believe that Ben was never meant to be the leader and that was why Jacob never communicated with him.

Since there are so many biblical references, or should I say what seem to be Biblical references in Lost could Ben be equal to Judas now?

My theory on Smokey is that he is the culmination of all who have died on the Island.

I disagree that Locke was being "taken over", or an attempt was being made to take him over. Locke was duplicated. Why do you need to possess him when you can just copy him?

That said, I do agree that spirits of some sort can possess bodies.
I don't attribute it all to the smoke monster. I think one 'head' (or part) of the smoke monster is "Flocke".
I can't agree with you that NotLocke is part Smokey. As far as we know Smokey can't go to the Hydra so how would Smokey be able to be part of NotLocke when he was already NotLocke on Hydra?

And also, IMO, Claire could not have been killed in the house explosion.
If she's the same entity as "Christian" then why did they show her acting surprised when she saw her "dad"? If she's dead (and I don't think she is) then she would have been killed after Zombie Dad lured her away.

I agree that Claire did not get killed in the house explosion.

The reason I think Claire died, is the way Miles was interacting with her after the explosion. You really need to see the whole episode. Sawyer said something about her barely being alive, but Miles quickly says something like "don't be too sure about that." Later Miles asks to take the baby, as if he knows something. He then stares at her strangely at the river, and Sawyer gives him a 'restraining order'. Later, Miles can recount that she walked off with 'dad' (workboots Christian). To me, it's the interaction with Miles that seals the deal - she's dead/reanimated=undead, but really you need to watch it.

[Back in Ben's house, Sawyer pounds on the closed outer secret door.]
SAWYER: Open the damn door! Son of a bitch just left us here. Open the damn door!
[Hurley emerges with Claire, who's carrying Aaron.]
CLAIRE: What's going on?
LOCKE: Claire?
SAWYER: You all right, sweetheart?
CLAIRE: Yeah, a bit wobbly, but, uh, I'll live.
MILES: Well, I wouldn't be too sure about that.


FYI, the podcast was in March 2008, and Claire was in the exploding house in The Shape of Things to Come, which aired in the US on April 24, 2008. But I often refer to that podcast - to me it is key to understanding Smokey/MiB.

There seems to be a distinction drawn by TPTB between undead and apparition. I take 'undead' mean reanimated (Christian's and Yemi's bodies were missing), whereas apparition is just a projected image.

If Claire was blown to smithereens, then she is undead. If she did survive, and later wandered off to who-knows-where, then Smokey at least created an apparition of her in the cabin.

Maybe the distinction between White shoes - suit wearing - Christian, and rugged-work boots - Christian, is that one is reanimated/undead (white shoes), whereas the other is an apparition (dark work boots). I like this!

In the cabin (when he told Locke to move the Island), Smokey could have been controlling the apparition of Christian (work boots) and undead/reanimated Claire.

We have seen 'little' wisps of smokey flying around, followed by 'big' pillars of smokey. I think Smokey can send off 'little' smokeys to do certain things. Thus, I think Smokey can control multiple people at once.

Later, Miles can recount that she walked off with 'dad' (workboots Christian). To me, it's the interaction with Miles that seals the deal - she's dead/reanimated=undead, but really you need to watch it.


Yep.

Not to mention, how are you going to convince a mom to leave her kid behind? Telling her that she's dead and the kid isn't is a somewhat compelling arguement. Just because she's inhabiting a body now, doesn't mean that it's a permanent thing.



There seems to be a distinction drawn by TPTB between undead and apparition. I take 'undead' mean reanimated (Christian's and Yemi's bodies were missing), whereas apparition is just a projected image.


Yes, and the reason why Richard asked if Ben's mom died on the island. Is there a body?


If Claire was blown to smithereens, then she is undead.


If she was blown to smithereens, then she can't be undead. Damage to the dead lingers. (witness Mikhail and Rouseau's crew)

If she was merely killed, but with an intact body, then she can be undead.



If she did survive, and later wandered off to who-knows-where, then Smokey at least created an apparition of her in the cabin.


Always a possibility. I'm not convinced that they can make apparitions of the living through. Have we ever seen an instance of it definitively?





Maybe the distinction between White shoes - suit wearing - Christian, and rugged-work boots - Christian, is that one is reanimated/undead (white shoes), whereas the other is an apparition (dark work boots). I like this!


I think it's exactly the opposite, actually. The apparition is in white, while the undead is dark. Spirit vs Zombie. That sort of thing.

Always a possibility. I'm not convinced that they can make apparitions of the living through. Have we ever seen an instance of it definitively?

I think it's exactly the opposite, actually. The apparition is in white, while the undead is dark. Spirit vs Zombie. That sort of thing.

Walt was apparition, as confirmed in the podcast. We have dripping wet Walt to Shannon in S2, and Walt to Locke at the pit in S4.

In S5, Jack talks about putting the white tennis shoes on Christian, and he was supposed to be going direct to the funeral, so I'd say that if Christian's body was reanimated, it was the suit/white shoe version of CS.

p.s. you're probably right about the 'smithereens' (I was exaggerating), but Yemi's corpse was pretty degraded, yet somehow TPTB classified him as 'undead'. Smokey can sure bring life to some pretty old dead people.

p.s.s. maybe apparition is not 'projecting an image', but rather is getting inside someone's head to make them see something, i.e. more akin to a hallucination. This would be consistent with the vivid dreams some people like Locke have (e.g. seeing Horace).

The reason I think Claire died, is the way Miles was interacting with her after the explosion. You really need to see the whole episode. Sawyer said something about her barely being alive, but Miles quickly says something like "don't be too sure about that." Later Miles asks to take the baby, as if he knows something. He then stares at her strangely at the river, and Sawyer gives him a 'restraining order'. Later, Miles can recount that she walked off with 'dad' (workboots Christian). To me, it's the interaction with Miles that seals the deal - she's dead/reanimated=undead, but really you need to watch it.

[Back in Ben's house, Sawyer pounds on the closed outer secret door.]
SAWYER: Open the damn door! Son of a vincent just left us here. Open the damn door!
[Hurley emerges with Claire, who's carrying Aaron.]
CLAIRE: What's going on?
LOCKE: Claire?
SAWYER: You all right, sweetheart?
CLAIRE: Yeah, a bit wobbly, but, uh, I'll live.
MILES: Well, I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Sorry but I saw this scene differently. I took it as Claire is still alive, barely, but still alive and Miles could tell that she was on the verge of dying. I also think that Christian took her to the Temple like Richard took Ben to the Temple. So I think Claire is still alive.

I can't agree with you that NotLocke is part Smokey. As far as we know Smokey can't go to the Hydra so how would Smokey be able to be part of NotLocke when he was already NotLocke on Hydra?


I'm still sticking with the idea. Also, it's not "Smokey" as we've seen him it's "Smokey" as a manifestation that can walk around, eat mangoes and apparently trek across the Island with no problem.

But to address the point specifically, who says there isn't an underground tunnel over to Hydra? And if a smoke manifestation like Alex can physically grab Ben and throw him around, then why couldn't it hop in an outrigger and travel across the water? Or walk under a tunnel and get there?

I think it means little that he was on Hydra, personally. Especially if Smokey can do all these other things, I think negotiating it's way to and from Hydra is a minor bump in the road. But of course, I definitely could be wrong.

The reason I think Claire died, is the way Miles was interacting with her after the explosion. You really need to see the whole episode. Sawyer said something about her barely being alive, but Miles quickly says something like "don't be too sure about that." Later Miles asks to take the baby, as if he knows something. He then stares at her strangely at the river, and Sawyer gives him a 'restraining order'. Later, Miles can recount that she walked off with 'dad' (workboots Christian). To me, it's the interaction with Miles that seals the deal - she's dead/reanimated=undead, but really you need to watch it.


I don't think the idea is crazy at all, it's totally plausible, I guess I'm just trying to find ways to disagree. I am biased against the idea because they've fumbled every single character reaction to character deaths since Charlie. And Claire probably has more emotional ties to the rest of the group than anyone. Jin can have a soap opera save and have his fabulous 'mourning' scene in Ji Yeon be undone for the 'big twist'. Locke...don't even get me started with that one. Michael (didn't like him anyway, but he was a S1 character) was a big whopper at the end of an episode like Rousseau, Daniel and Locke (the realization of his actual death). Jack tells Sawyer "doesn't matter" when asking how Locke died...not another word about him is said by Sawyer. I don't like complainers so I'll stop there and just add that I don't think this criticism is ungrounded. I'll just say that I hope I'm right about Claire.

Sorry but I saw this scene differently. I took it as Claire is still alive, barely, but still alive and Miles could tell that she was on the verge of dying. I also think that Christian took her to the Temple like Richard took Ben to the Temple. So I think Claire is still alive.

I took Miles statement as a sarcastic remark regarding their current situation so I agree that Claire is still alive. Christian taking her to the temple is plausible -- as would leaving Aaron behind so that he would not lose his 'innocence'.

Once more into the fray...My feeling is Yemi/J. Bean Christian/Kate's Horse/Christian at the hospital (smoke detector)/ and Dharma Pit Walt were all Smoke/Mib. Alot of help for Locke. Not so much for Eko.

Ben's mom/ Walt in the jungle/Dave at the cliff/Christian in tennis shoes etc. are apparitions created by The Whispers to accomplish THEIR objective which seems to require that they receive some help. The Whispers have comtemplated "revealing" themselves to Sayid or Sawyer one for help, but "that would ruin everything" in their words. They are at cross purposes with Ben because they wanted him tortured more and were disappointed when Jack stopped it. So they probably know that Ben is the MIB's pawn.

It seems they also attempted to run Jack off a cliff and to get Hurley to jump off a cliff via Christian and Dave. After all, it seems the most prevalent form of manipulation on LOST is to, as Ben so succinctly put it, take something you're emotionally invested in and use it against you. Had either one of these ploys worked it breaks the chain of 6 and monkey wrenches somebody. BTW, who came along and saved Jack from the cliff? Why Flocke of course, because "I knew I'd find you here". Right. BTW,are we getting rain today, John? Geez..

Maybe they are trying to protect Jacob from the endgame. Maybe they are trapped Dharmites who are using some technology to "cloak" themselves from the people on the island. EM suits, hidden hatches and scopes anyone? Maybe they are Dharmites who used the pod in the Orchid to accelerate themselves into the future to escape but something is jamming them up and the island isn't "catching up to them in time". Whatever The Whispers are, they are communicating with each other and making plans. Even influencing events. After all, they spooked Ana into shooting Shannon, but they were all gathered to watch anyway because they knew it was going to happen. Eliminate Shannon however, and you get Sayid back on point and back to Nadia. And we all know where that goes...

The meeting at the sonic fence between Ben and his mom is another example. The Whispers are feeding "her" the lines to speak to Ben ("tell him you're his mother/tell him you love him"/tell him to be patient"). But right before the meeting, The Whispers are communicating with each other and the main thrust of the convo is "we need to get through the sonic fence". The reply: "Hold on, we're sending one"(Ben or Mom). Later, Ben opens the fence and their people can now get through. So whatever they are The Whispers still need help getting through the sonic fence like everybody else.

Hippie Richard in the forest. Hmmm...seems to me that he's trying to get some intel on what or who Ben is communicating with (on-island death or off-island death) and I think this was what he was doing-differentiating-the source of the communication.

As for why he looks this way, well I always though that it was probably MIB/Smokey imitating Richard as they last remember him looking. This is why I'm not so sure that "Ricardo Montalban" looking Richard (Welcome...to Fantasy Island) had actually even met Ben before he "smoked" him. He acted more like he was just doing Dharma a solid by saving Ben, but he also laid out the ramifications. Obviously, these ramifications didn't click with the Losties as much as the Dharmites, as it sure was nice to have an "inside man" in Dharma leading right up to the purge. "He'll always be one of us", indeed...And he'll end up helping us "evict" Dharma in the end by "terminating" the lease.

So, Richard in the forest is really what it comes down to. Is it Smokey/MIB intercepting Ben and determining just exactly who Ben is communicating or being used by (The Whispers). If this is the case, then I submit he's appearing as Richard in the way he lasts remembers Richard looking. And since we've never seen it imitate a live person, well maybe Richard once died and as he put it Jacob hooked him up. Like he defibrillated Locke back to life with a touch. He says he owes Jacob everything. But maybe while in death state, Smokey/Mib stored a copy of him for later.

I don't think he's a Whisper apparition, as he seems more interested in just exactly who Ben is communicating with and how, and The Whispers already know this. BTW, this is what makes Ben special in my eyes. He got alot more special when somebody realized that a faction was attempting to communicate with him and move him around some. These same Whispers that were starting to use him end up hating him so it seems obvious who won that recruiting battle. After Ben became, shall we say, "possessed" by the Smokester (as Danielle so aptly put it-murderously possessed as well, it seems)...

Or, maybe Alpert has a literal flesh and blood twin who's got his own agenda (re: Bad Twin) which is at odds with his brother. I'm not sayin' though, I'm just sayin. Either way, shire Richard seemed to echo the same message as The Whispers sent: be patient, it's not time yet...(<>..<>)

Once more into the fray...My feeling is Yemi/J. Bean Christian/Kate's Horse/Christian at the hospital (smoke detector)/ and Dharma Pit Walt were all Smoke/Mib. Alot of help for Locke. Not so much for Eko.

Ben's mom/ Walt in the jungle/Dave at the cliff/Christian in tennis shoes etc. are apparitions created by The Whispers to accomplish THEIR objective which seems to require that they receive some help.

You have Suit Christian as both Whisper/apparition and Smokey/MIB because Christian at the hopital was Suit Christian. What was Black shoed Christian on the Kahana, Holding Aaron and in Jacob's Cabin with Claire? What was Suit Christian in Jacob's cabin that Hurley saw?




As for why he looks this way, well I always though that it was probably MIB/Smokey imitating Richard as they last remember him looking. This is why I'm not so sure that "Ricardo Montalban" looking Richard (Welcome...to Fantasy Island) had actually even met Ben before he "smoked" him. He acted more like he was just doing Dharma a solid by saving Ben, but he also laid out the ramifications. Obviously, these ramifications didn't click with the Losties as much as the Dharmites, as it sure was nice to have an "inside man" in Dharma leading right up to the purge. "He'll always be one of us", indeed...And he'll end up helping us "evict" Dharma in the end by "terminating" the lease.

Did you forget this conversation?
"Whatever Happened, Happened"
[Switch to the island. Sawyer is carrying Ben. Kate is walking along side him. The Hostiles surround them as they walk.]
SAWYER: Don't worry. We got them right where we want them.
MAN: Shut up and keep moving.
SAWYER: What's it look like I'm doin'?
RICHARD: Hello there James.
SAWYER: The hell did you come from?
RICHARD: You asked my people to bring you to me. Here I am. [pauses] Is that Benjamin Linus?
SAWYER: You two know each other?
Richard obviously knew Ben.

The first post in this thread made me think of something a bit tangential to the topic:

It's too bad Miles is stuck in 1977 when all the Flocke business is going down, because he seems like the one character who could really be instrumental in spotting a fake Smokey person. He's never been around in those situations, that we know of, but it would be very interesting how it would play out if he was...
Hope we get to see something like this in S6.

The first post in this thread made me think of something a bit tangential to the topic:

It's too bad Miles is stuck in 1977 when all the Flocke business is going down, because he seems like the one character who could really be instrumental in spotting a fake Smokey person. He's never been around in those situations, that we know of, but it would be very interesting how it would play out if he was...
Hope we get to see something like this in S6.
Miles did see Christian and didn't mention anything about him being undead.
"Somrthing Nice Back Home"
SAWYER: It's way too early for Chinese. (grunts) Where's Claire? Ladies' room?
MILES: Nope... she just walked off into the jungle.
[Sawyer, confused, looks over to Miles.]
SAWYER: What? (looks out at the jungle) When?
MILES: In the middle of the night... just got up and left.
SAWYER: And you let her go alone?
MILES: She wasn't alone.
[Sawyer rises to his feet.]
SAWYER: Well, who was she with?
MILES: She called him Dad. I'd have followed them... but I have a restraining order.

The first post in this thread made me think of something a bit tangential to the topic:

It's too bad Miles is stuck in 1977 when all the Flocke business is going down, because he seems like the one character who could really be instrumental in spotting a fake Smokey person. He's never been around in those situations, that we know of, but it would be very interesting how it would play out if he was...
Hope we get to see something like this in S6.

I agree, very convenient for MiB/Smokey that Miles and Hurley -- the two people that actually do hear/converse with dead people -- ended up in 1977. Part of MiB's plan, no doubt. He really did cover all his bases. ;)

Miles did see Christian and didn't mention anything about him being undead.


And never said a word about supposedly dead Claire either.
Even after she went missing.

NBC001-to answer your questions: It's possible Christian has been both as he didn't die on the island, yet his body did come to the island and wasn't buried. This seems to satisfy the conditions for both sides to manifest him. I'm going with Smokey/MIB as Christian in the hospital mainly because he triggered the smoke detector in the lobby. The suit Christian in the cabin that seemed to be getting VooDoo'ed in the rocker I'm assuming was the actual corpse. Either we were seeing the process for the copy effect, or more likely we were either seeing that body being reversed to a usable and less depreciated state for possession or we were seeing Christian proper actually being restored back to life. Undead. Seems happy to be back. In the pink, so to speak...

Picking up Aaron is another thing, as the Smoke is solid. So when I see this I gotta think that it's either Smoke or a somehow physically restored Christian. He projects himself to places, and that confuses the issue. On the boat, underground with Locke. Doesn't seem to be able to lift anything in this state as he couldn't help Locke up to turn the wheel. So maybe Smokey/MIB can apparition too , but when in that state really is just a projection and not tangible. I'll have to ponder that a little farther...

As for Richard and Ben, all I'm saying is that if hippie Richard and Preppy Richard are not the same entity for whatever reason, then there could be a possibility that prep Richard had never really even met Ben, much as Jacob never did. I'm sure he has a good knowledge of who the people are in the Dharma camp, and it could be possible that he knows of Ben Linus and who Ben is. He just might have not formally met him yet. After all, if he knows Ben so well, why does he have to ask "Is that Ben Linus?" at all? Seems he should recognize him pretty easily. It's not like he was shot in the face. And if he has already co-opted Ben as a junior Other, why would he just blurt out the fact that they know each other right in front of Sawyer and crew and blow Ben's "cover"...But maybe I should have made it more clear that I'm not sayin', I'm just sayin'. It's specualtion more than theory, so just file it under that..But if they do already know each other, could this be how Richard just seemed to walk right through the sonic fence? Because in actuality somebody on the inside let him through? (<>..<>)

Some one is awfully busy taking over and controling bodies. Seems like they might be too busy donig that rather the concentrate on the loophole. Maybe they goofed up somehow.

On the boat, underground with Locke. Doesn't seem to be able to lift anything in this state as he couldn't help Locke up to turn the wheel. So maybe Smokey/MIB can apparition too , but when in that state really is just a projection and not tangible. I'll have to ponder that a little farther...

You're wrong about Christian in the tunnels not being able to lift anything in that state because he was holding a lantern. I think his not helping Locke up and helping him turn the FDW was because Locke had to do it on his own. He was supposed to turn the FDW in the first place and not Ben so he had to clean up his own mess wtihout anyone elses help.

You're wrong about Christian in the tunnels not being able to lift anything in that state because he was holding a lantern. I think his not helping Locke up and helping him turn the FDW was because Locke had to do it on his own. He was supposed to turn the FDW in the first place and not Ben so he had to clean up his own mess wtihout anyone elses help.

I think Smokey is made up of particles that are magnetically attractable - if he gets too close to the EM pocket he'll be sucked in.

MichaelTheAngel (original thread starter) was almost bang on about his thoery.. it all makes perfect sense now... seems so simple yet I could'nt figure it out

You're wrong about Christian in the tunnels not being able to lift anything in that state because he was holding a lantern. I think his not helping Locke up and helping him turn the FDW was because Locke had to do it on his own. He was supposed to turn the FDW in the first place and not Ben so he had to clean up his own mess wtihout anyone elses help.
You mean the "magic lantern" from the "magic cabin" that can break, spread fire and then reassemble and be hung back up on the hook? I realize that he was holding the lantern when talking to Locke, but the fact is that he can't just be stuck underground in another era with Locke if he's human. Just like he can't just teleport to a boat offshore if he's human. So whatever he is in those states, I don't think he's human.

I agree that it could be him making Locke do everything by himself, but that doesn't explain how he can just appear down there in the first place if he's flesh and blood.

As I was saying before, the only thing that confuses the issue for me are these "projections" of Christian being in places that are physically impossible for him to get to as a human...(<>..<>)

As I was saying before, the only thing that confuses the issue for me are these "projections" of Christian being in places that are physically impossible for him to get to as a human...(<>..<>)

The answer is #3 in the 4 forms of 'other others'.

1. Reanimation (aka undead, real body)
2. Apparition (aka Smokey taking a form)
3. Visions (e.g. dreams, hallucinations)
4. Ghosts (Jacob talking to Hurley, Charlie talking to Hurley)

Smokey got inside Locke's head, and made him have a dream about Horace.
Smokey or Jacob got inside Jack's head and made him see Christian.

If Smokey took Claire's form, then who was inhabiting/using Christian? We haven't seen any evidence that Smokey can take on more than one form at a time.