OK - I feel a lot better this morning seeing all of the questions and confusion and knowing I'm not alone...LOL I'm going to have to re-watch again tonight, but I was hoping someone could confirm/explain/clarify the "new" narrative device they are introducing this season?

I notice that in place of the "whoosh" sound we would hear during the scene transition to a flashback/flashfoward we have a new sound that kind of sounds like that "whoosh" mixed in with the warping sound we heard during the time shifts. I'm assuming this is the indication that what we are about to see is from the perspective of the new narrative device....

When these transitions occur, are we seeing a parallel timeline in which 815 never crashed? Are we the viewers the only ones "seeing" it, or are the Losties actually experiencing this phenomenon in both places? (i.e. - are they jumping back and forth like Desmond, but this time instead of backward/forwards they are actually jumping sideways??)

Also - did anyone else notice the purple sky/warping sound in the background when the "Alt-815" flight experienced the heavy turbulence but didn't break apart?

I would love some clarification or someone to share their confusion with me...LOL

I have to admit, it looked a couple times like Jack was a little "dizzy looking" when we flashed to him on the plane. Like he knew about something on the edge of his tongue.
Maybe it was just me.

There are now two narratives.

One chronicles the action on the Island in 2007 with Jack, Kate, Hurley, Jin, Sawyer, Miles and Sayid in the Temple with the Others and Ben, Lapidus, Sun, Illana, Richard and Smokey/Locke at the Foot Statue. In this narrative, Ajira 316 landed, and Jacob has just been killed and the Losties at the temple have just recently returned from their three year stay in 1974-77 with DHARMA and for Kate, Sayid, Jack and Hurley, a three year stay off the Island in 2004-07. This narrative is the continuation of the traditional Island narrative that started on September 22, 2004 with Jack waking up amidst bamboo trees.

Now, the other narrative is taking the place of the traditional flashback/flashforward. Whereas we usually got a glimpse of the past of the characters in Seasons 1-3 as a way to get to know them, and then post S3 finale we got Flashforwards to the future, now we are getting glimpses of "What Might Have Been" if 815 didn't crash.

Since this secondary Alternative narrative was presumably birthed with the detonation of Jughead in 1977, then that is when they began to diverge. Therefore there has been a cascading accumulative effect that changes some things, not just 815 crashing. Therefore Desmond is on the plane because he finished his race and didn't end up on the Island.

There are now two narratives.

One chronicles the action on the Island in 2007 with Jack, Kate, Hurley, Jin, Sawyer, Miles and Sayid in the Temple with the Others and Ben, Lapidus, Sun, Illana, Richard and Smokey/Locke at the Foot Statue. In this narrative, Ajira 316 landed, and Jacob has just been killed and the Losties at the temple have just recently returned from their three year stay in 1974-77 with DHARMA and for Kate, Sayid, Jack and Hurley, a three year stay off the Island in 2004-07. This narrative is the continuation of the traditional Island narrative that started on September 22, 2004 with Jack waking up amidst bamboo trees.

Now, the other narrative is taking the place of the traditional flashback/flashforward. Whereas we usually got a glimpse of the past of the characters in Seasons 1-3 as a way to get to know them, and then post S3 finale we got Flashforwards to the future, now we are getting glimpses of "What Might Have Been" if 815 didn't crash.

Since this secondary Alternative narrative was presumably birthed with the detonation of Jughead in 1977, then that is when they began to diverge. Therefore there has been a cascading accumulative effect that changes some things, not just 815 crashing. Therefore Desmond is on the plane because he finished his race and didn't end up on the Island.

Thanks for explaining this. I, myself have had a hard time following the new narrative so its nice that someone that knows can explain it in a simple way. Also thanks to the OP for starting this thread and asking. I thought I was the one not really getting it.

Nice, concise explanation. I personally didn't have any trouble following it but can see how others would. I believe there was an old Gwyneth Paltrow movie that dealt with the same scenario.

Therefore Desmond is on the plane because he finished his race and didn't end up on the Island.
I think there is more to it than that. They drew attention to the fact that he seemingly vanished when Jack returned to his seat after saving Charlie.

the word we are looking for is flash sideways (what I used to call, incorrectly, fashsides)
It is a logical step in the evolution of their story tellling structure. if you think about it.
The show started with flashbacks to let us know about the characters.
The show introduced flasforwards to show us the future when time travel was introduced.
What is left? Flash sideways!
We now have two parallel universes. One in which 815 crashed (original and UNTOUCHED) and the one that was just created when jughead went off preventing 815 from ever crashing on the island.
I also have no doubt that characters will start to remember things or having dejavu moments in this new timeline. Jack's neck wound is gonna become the first example, probably. At some point, Temple-Jack is gonna get a wound in his neck which will have an impact in Alt Jack...

At some point, Temple-Jack is gonna get a wound in his neck which will have an impact in Alt Jack...

Didn't Jack get a graze on his neck in the season 5 finale?

So would I be correct in saying that this is a kind of "Alt-1985" experience like from Back to the Future Part 2?? :) Where Biff stole the almanac and changed the past by giving it to himself creating the "tangent" 1985 where he was rich and powerful? Is that a good analogy?

Are the Losties experiencing these "shifts" from 1 timeline to the other throughout the episode? Or are they transparent to the Losties and only viewable by us?

I have to admit, it looked a couple times like Jack was a little "dizzy looking" when we flashed to him on the plane. Like he knew about something on the edge of his tongue.
Maybe it was just me.
My first impression when Jack was in the bathroom looking in the mirror was that he recognized how old he looked. I kept getting the sense that he felt something was different, but didn't quite know what was going on.
100%
So would I be correct in saying that this is a kind of "Alt-1985" experience like from Back to the Future Part 2?? :) Where Biff stole the almanac and changed the past by giving it to himself creating the "tangent" 1985 where he was rich and powerful? Is that a good analogy?

Are the Losties experiencing these "shifts" from 1 timeline to the other throughout the episode? Or are they transparent to the Losties and only viewable by us?
I don't believe they "experience" the shifts in that sense. Rather than calling it an alternate timeline, think of it as parallel timelines.

I have to admit, it looked a couple times like Jack was a little "dizzy looking" when we flashed to him on the plane. Like he knew about something on the edge of his tongue.
Maybe it was just me.

nope, I felt that way too

Yes we seem to have two parallel universes due to a side flash - my question is why should I care about a parallel universe. After all there can always be parallel universes in any story or even in our current reality. There is always a "what could have been' scenario in any story that is usually unspoken or at the very least never fully operationalized. But do i care. I care about the O6 et al. in the original timeline. I either like or don't like Locke, Jack, Kate, Desmond and the rest. But in the alt. timeline with the successful Fl. 815 - I don't rally care about these people - Locke, Jack and the rest - and with only 14 more hours to go I doubt they will grow on me.

Here's hoping you guys can give me a reason to care...

Dig, I think the point of the alternate/parallel storylines is to emphasize one of the constant battles portrayed on the show. The fate vs free will debate. These characters are who they are, and while certain things may change, some elements of their character will change, who they are will always be the same. Jack will want to fix things, Kate is a fugitive, Locke is a cripple, Rose and Bernard have a kind of true love the rest of the couples on the show only wish they could find.
My point is, even though with the Island underwater, these people never ended up stranded together, somehow they all come together in some way. Give it time and I'm sure the writers will find a way to make you care what happens. They've gotten you this far, trust them to take you home.

Yes we seem to have two parallel universes due to a side flash - my question is why should I care about a parallel universe. After all there can always be parallel universes in any story or even in our current reality. There is always a "what could have been' scenario in any story that is usually unspoken or at the very least never fully operationalized. But do i care. I care about the O6 et al. in the original timeline. I either like or don't like Locke, Jack, Kate, Desmond and the rest. But in the alt. timeline with the successful Fl. 815 - I don't rally care about these people - Locke, Jack and the rest - and with only 14 more hours to go I doubt they will grow on me.

Here's hoping you guys can give me a reason to care...

I think that the writers and actors gave us enough hints that Jack was catching on to something being not quite right in the parallel no-crash timeline. The first scene he seemed to be thinking about something off in the distance, the look in the mirror, the cut on his neck, the encounter with Desmond. It appears that these two timelines aren't as far apart as we think they are.

Plus, in the no-crash timeline, it's a great comparison to how much the character have actually grown on the island. Sawyer cares about people, not conning...Kate is a person who watches after people instead of escaping from the next spot of trouble...

I do agree with you on the 16 hours left deal and the apprehension that it won't get wrapped...I can understand your worry...but after last night's premiere I'm just going to enjoy the ride.

I am certainly enjoying the ride. I just don't like the side flash as an approach to resolving things. But yes, you guys make a good pint of how some of these guys have changed - Hurley and Sawyer most strongly, not so sure about Kate or Jack, and Charlie changes for the worse which is a shame.

I am also sure not nearly enough will be resolved which is my preference - I mean that is the way it is with real mythology, so I am not concerned with resolution. After all in the Prisoner - which TPTB have noted its influence - we never learn in whose hands #6 was - that was the central mystery of the show but in the end turned out to be superfluous. I suspect here to the journey or process is the main result, not any solution to any part of any possible puzzle (so for instance Walt really isn't all that important - at least up until now) and I don't think he will make a come back in the last 14 hours.

I like the description of the OP. But I too think there is more to it than just that. Jack and Desmond thought that they had met. There also seemed to be some knowing glances from both Jack and Sawyer towards Kate as though they too thought they knew her.

Sabben

But if this is indeed a parallel universe, how could any of the Losties have any sense that something was awry or that they had met before? The idea of this reality being parallel precludes that by definition.

Didn't Jack get a graze on his neck in the season 5 finale?

I thought it was Daniel that was grazed. Jack patched him up and then Daniel ended up getting shot by Hawking.

I really appreciate all of the input and feedback... I feel a lot better about my understanding of things now.

So is the consensus that there is: A.) A slight "bleed over" effect occuring between the 2 timelines and that is what is responsible for Jack's weird deja-vuish behavior on Alt-815?

Or B.) that they are completely independent from one another and the Losties have no interaction at all, we're just seeing the alternate timeline as viewers?

I really appreciate all of the input and feedback... I feel a lot better about my understanding of things now.

So is the consensus that there is: A.) A slight "bleed over" effect occuring between the 2 timelines and that is what is responsible for Jack's weird deja-vuish behavior on Alt-815?

Or B.) that they are completely independent from one another and the Losties have no interaction at all, we're just seeing the alternate timeline as viewers?

I'm going to go with A because B would make the timeline a complete waste of time in my opinion. Sure, there could be two endings to the show and of course I've only seen two hours so there could be some sort of conflict that arises in Los Angeles but I have a feeling actions that occur in the "whatever happened, happened," timeline are going to bleed over and pull the "alternate universe" characters back to the island.

Ok im understanding the alternative timeline thing going on, however are we meant to assume that in 2004 the island was for some reason underwater, or are we meant to assume that it is only underwater because 815 never happened and this impacts on the island? Im not understanding how or why this would happen.

I'm going to go with A because B would make the timeline a complete waste of time in my opinion. Sure, there could be two endings to the show and of course I've only seen two hours so there could be some sort of conflict that arises in Los Angeles but I have a feeling actions that occur in the "whatever happened, happened," timeline are going to bleed over and pull the "alternate universe" characters back to the island.

But the island is underwater. Though they will probably just do something else to undo that because they weren't supposed to leave. Wouldn't be the first time they wasted a whole half season being off island just to return. Unfortunately it would waste a lot of screen time in the final season.

I am with dig. I find this alternate universe to be a waste of time. I don't care about these people, I care about the people I have watched grow for 5 seasons. Besides, they have enough to deal with on island for one season. I want to believe they will do it right, but I don't know that they will.

Nice, concise explanation. I personally didn't have any trouble following it but can see how others would. I believe there was an old Gwyneth Paltrow movie that dealt with the same scenario..

I thought of the movie as soon as we shifted from narrative one to two. The movie was Sliding Doors. The character's life switched between two parallel realities. At the end, we discovered which reality *really* happened.

I have to admit, it looked a couple times like Jack was a little "dizzy looking" when we flashed to him on the plane. Like he knew about something on the edge of his tongue.
Maybe it was just me.

Oh yes, I think this was clearly on purpose. Several of them were having deja vu moments.

Dig, I think the point of the alternate/parallel storylines is to emphasize one of the constant battles portrayed on the show. The fate vs free will debate. These characters are who they are, and while certain things may change, some elements of their character will change, who they are will always be the same. Jack will want to fix things, Kate is a fugitive, Locke is a cripple, Rose and Bernard have a kind of true love the rest of the couples on the show only wish they could find.
My point is, even though with the Island underwater, these people never ended up stranded together, somehow they all come together in some way. Give it time and I'm sure the writers will find a way to make you care what happens. They've gotten you this far, trust them to take you home.

Darlton were on Jimmy Kimmel last night, or was it in the EW article this morning... one or the other: they made it clear that they are very aware that ppl are going to be hesitant to care at all about these Alt versions of our beloved characters. And they said they have this in mind, have a plan, etc. And I am going to for the ride and hope that it pans out. Cause, I agree, right now, I'm like 'why am I seeing these versions of these people? These slightly different versions?" It's weird.

I like the description of the OP. But I too think there is more to it than just that. Jack and Desmond thought that they had met. There also seemed to be some knowing glances from both Jack and Sawyer towards Kate as though they too thought they knew her.

Sabben

Yep, definitely, knowing-confused looks at each other. Of course, Kate with Jack was her stealing his pen, lol.

I thought it was Daniel that was grazed. Jack patched him up and then Daniel ended up getting shot by Hawking.

It was indeed Daniel. Maybe the neck wound is supposed to be related to generalized wounding during the explosion at the Swan, or from being creamed by Sawyer.

I'm going to go with A because B would make the timeline a complete waste of time in my opinion. Sure, there could be two endings to the show and of course I've only seen two hours so there could be some sort of conflict that arises in Los Angeles but I have a feeling actions that occur in the "whatever happened, happened," timeline are going to bleed over and pull the "alternate universe" characters back to the island.

Yes, I don't think the timelines are completely 100% separate either. The deja vu moments. Desmond's suspicious disappearance. There seems to be bleed-over. I like that term.

Ok im understanding the alternative timeline thing going on, however are we meant to assume that in 2004 the island was for some reason underwater, or are we meant to assume that it is only underwater because 815 never happened and this impacts on the island? Im not understanding how or why this would happen.

We are meant to assume (but also question how this is possible) that the H-bomb paired with the EM force caused the island to either immediately or eventually become submerged underwater.

I have a feeling that these two time lines will MERGE back into one timeline. Like Ms.Hawking told Desmond. If you were to save the man with red shoes, course-correction will eventually kill him.

I believe the Losties, that never crashed, will make it back to the island somehow. The two timelines at some point will be indistinguisahble from each other.

...only problem with this theory is that the island is now underwater :(

Darlton has said on TV and on EW.com that they are fully aware of the initial reaction people would give upon seeing these 2 timelines - those recaps this morning really helped me out...LOL

They've basically said "trust us - we're not showing you the alt timeline just for fun or to add bloat to the story" I am very nervous, excited, skeptical and a believer, all at the same time! LOL

What if in order to save one universe from being destroyed (as predicted by the VE), they are forced to send the Black Smoke into this other new universe?

This way, we could witness the end of the world in the hands of Smokie while their original universe is saved.
That would be a bittersweet ending, like it has been promised long ago.

In other words, the creation or bifurcation of the original timeline served as a way to create another 'prison' or playground for Smokie to play with....

Sad, but possible...

Furthermore, the losties might not have the slightest idea that they are sending smokie into another parallel universe full of their happy alter egos, neither might we, the audience!
That might be shown in the last episode...

Imagine Smokie emerging free in some remote part of the Earth ready to start causing chaos all around the world....

LOST

The question of "why should we care about this parallel timeline" is totally valid. I'm not panicking yet: even though I didn't care deeply about the entire O6 story, I still enjoyed the 4th & 5th seasons!

The notion of "these aren't the same characters we've come to follow" is interesting & totally relevant. Especially in light of the S5 finale, where we see how much both Jacob and the MIB have played muckymuck with the Losties' lives & fates, it *would* be interesting to see how exactly our characters would behave if they WEREN'T manipulated in that way. Or, rather, given how the show's supposed to have such a discussion about free will & destiny, it seems relevant to involve some component of "non-superior-being intervention" to our Losties' lives, at least for comparison.

But you're right, at the outset, it does seem hard to connect with at the moment. Either these Alt-815 folks ARE the same, and it looks like the Losties are always supposed to have been the pawns of Jacob & MIB... or the Alt-815 folks AREN'T the same characters, in which case, so what?

Even if our "main" reality starts to seep in... what lasting consequence or change or point can come out of a "what if" storyline? Someone help me!

The only thing I can come up with is that this ISN'T a flashsideways, but a long-con flashforward... that maybe by the end of the season, there will be some other kind of reset that undoes the entire 6 seasons, and this Alt-815 is the result. And I'm not saying I find that concept particularly compelling.

Good points.

I don't think you can infer that this is parallel dimension. Parallel dimension in scientific conjecture means the same characters leading different lives at the same time--and we don't know when they are.

whatever time altering event/flash occurred at the Swan station stopped altogether, or to what degree altered the interactions Jacob had off-island with the main characters. It goes without saying that they're still tied together through fate/Jacob etc. and the magic in the story will be seeing what/when brings them back.

I believe the nuke did not explode, but there was a time event/flash that effected the main characters uniquely (as it has happened before sweeping select individuals through time but not affecting everyone on the island at the moment of the flash).

the nuke didn't explode because:

1) Juliet's proximity to the nuke was closer than anything else. If you think that the nuke going off triggered the flash, then Juliet would've been fried before the blast could've gotten far enough away from the nuke to trigger /effect anything else.

2) even if you're going to take the tact that the time travel was triggered by the nuke, but somehow wrapped it's arms around Juliet and carried her away from the instantaneous destruction, then the contents of the hole Juliet was inside would've been melted/deformed when they rescued her after the "flash". * remember when Locke went down the well and a time travel event moved the people but not necessarily things not on their persons. The well was filled in after the flash, the rope was gone, but the people moved.

3) if the nuke destroyed/neutralized the pocket of energy, then there was no need for the 1977 Dharma folk to continue building the hatch/swan station! and the area would have been toxic to humans to work in for at least a few years, delaying immediate construction. Not to mention needing new drilling rig and equipment lost down the hole which they for some reason didn't recover: tools, beams, etc.. that the gang moved quickly by hand & with the aid of a VW bus...

As a friend said to me as we were watching the premiere:

"Everything That Rises Must Converge"

And while these sideverse characters are a bit different from what we're used to seeing -- they're all still very recognizable. They've had a little different journey through life, that's all.

It's a chance for us to muse on the changes each character has made over the years. Was the island a good or bad influence for them? What about the relationships the island fostered -- could Jack and John have actually been supportive friends if they'd met in a less tense environment? Did Sun and Jin need to be separated in order for them to realize how much they truly love each other? What kind of journey does Charlie's life take if he doesn't get drug counseling from Locke and the tender touch of a maternal Claire?

I think we'll end up with a mixed report card...the island helped some people grow and redeem themselves, but it held back some others from discovering themselves. I don't think there will be any easy emotional answers.

Anyway, finding out What Kate Did or how Jack met his once-wife or how Sayid met and lost Nadia didn't really address anything about the island's mysteries. It was just about character and getting us more invested in these people. The sideverse is the same, we get to see what some of our characters would be like if they'd walked a different road in life, and then we can decide for ourselves whether they gained or lost by being on the island.

Thanks for that observation, gupwalla is it? It actually makes a bit of sense. As different as their paths may seem to have led us all to, by contrast at the end of S5, I would agree that the point the creators are making is for us to compare how much each individual character either has or has not changed, since the pilot, since reaching the island. The idea that it's something WE can observe -- whether or not the characters have "gained or lost by being on the island" -- is a cool thought.

I appreciate your response Gupwalla but I'm not buying. Yes you are quite correct that in most cases the FFs and FBs were about character development. But it was the unified, completely integrated singular character regardless of where they were in time or space. So we learned about what happened to that on individual and could apply it to wherever they were in the story (alive, dead, 1954, 1977, 1845, 2003, present). Now we have a slightly bent version of that individual, that gives us no real insights into the fully integrated but fractured time/space narrative we have been dealing with up to now.

I will say that I now think the Alt. Losties will come to affect the singular story up until now. That the two timelines will bleed into each other and so I will then care about what happens in the AU - so that's good.

Fierro - the idea that smokie will pass into another time / space continuum and wreck havoc is not so satisfying. Sort of the "I'm Back" story solution which I have never been a fan of.

But whatever happens the ride has been great and the solution will be no better or worse than any other solution to great epic myths.

There also seemed to be some knowing glances from both Jack and Sawyer towards Kate as though they too thought they knew her.

that could be due to familiarity, or it could be because she's just ridiculously hot??