So you took the death from last season that kicked *** and ruined it by bringing her back for 5 minutes just so she could kiss James. WTF? Really? Why? Pointless. So she could say some secret...UGH. This season so far sucks and it's a shame it's the last one. I sort of knew I would be disappointed. The fact I already have how it ends figured out sucks too. LAME!

So Jacob is God, the guy in Black is the Devil, the Devil claims the people are crap and can be easily swayed, God challenges him to prove him wrong, sort of like the book of Job right? The island is the playing field and the people the guinea pigs. The mysterious properties of the island can be explained if you consider the island an in between. As like the Catholic view of purgatory, close enough to see Earth and the light of Heaven but to far away to get to either of them. You can't kill God or the Devil because then the balance is lost. Then everyone will be damned, so they must co exist.

That's the direction I really think they are going with this.

Well, I would point out that the "death" at the end of last season could not really happen and leave the other losties alive as well. The bomb could not go off and kill Juliet without killing others that were around the area, which would mess up the WTT aspect of things.

I agree that killing her off twice (sort of) does suck. And I'm very disappointed that her story is over without her having the chance to spill the beans on what she knew. If I told you what I knew, you'd kill me. Um... ok. Do we ever get to hear it??? :rolleyes:
A cool character cut down too soon in my opinion.


As for your overall theory, I sort of agree. Fallen angels maybe.

We don't actually know that she died at the end of last season. The heartwrenching part was when she let go of Sawyer & his heartbreak at ASSUMING she was dead. The last we saw, she was hammering on the bomb & there was a flash. WE made the assumption that the bomb exploded - but did it really? Kate, Jack, Sawyer, et al survived when they flashed out- why wouldn't Juliet?

Due to public demand, they decided to bring bac Jules for an episode or two. For fans of them, this week gave them a TRUE goodbye moment. Other than her time traveling in her head saing something about coffee and "it worked", nothing happened. I guess ladies luv dem some crying Sawyer.
100%
I don't know if HIM is pure evil or anything. Seems more like a grumpy land lord or school president ala Animal House.
100%
Just me, or is Jake a prick?
100%
Just me, or is Jake a prick?

It was heart-wrenching to have to say goodbye to her twice, but it was nice to see her, and let her and James have a real goodbye. She'll be missed.

The amount of whining about Juliet's death is a bit over the top. The woman did not die twice...she died once. Clearly she was fully alive and well in the final moments of last season's premiere. To have started S6 without a proper send-off would have caused outrage with many of the fans. TPTB just cant win.

My first reaction was the same...why am I watching her die twice? But upon reflection, I think there was a reason for it. Do we know for sure she'll never be back? In the sideways story? There may be more of a payoff to this then we know now...

The "secret" was revealed that Juliet realized the plan "worked," in other words, the existence of an alternate timeline. It might prove to be a crucial bit of info for the island losties to work off of later on, you never know.

But if Juliet's death reprisal was pretty much in response to a contingent of fans who never wanted to her to die in the first place, tptb should just accept that some of their plans aren't going to mesh with 100% of the fans, and move on. I suspect part of it was abc executives wanting to cross-promote V as well. That, to me, was the most insulting aspect of the whole thing about bringing EM back. Also, Sawyer's "you did this!!!" line was cringe-worthy.

So you took the death from last season that kicked *** and ruined it by bringing her back for 5 minutes just so she could kiss James. WTF? Really? Why? Pointless. So she could say some secret...UGH. This season so far sucks and it's a shame it's the last one. I sort of knew I would be disappointed. The fact I already have how it ends figured out sucks too. LAME!

So Jacob is God, the guy in Black is the Devil, the Devil claims the people are crap and can be easily swayed, God challenges him to prove him wrong, sort of like the book of Job right? The island is the playing field and the people the guinea pigs. The mysterious properties of the island can be explained if you consider the island an in between. As like the Catholic view of purgatory, close enough to see Earth and the light of Heaven but to far away to get to either of them. You can't kill God or the Devil because then the balance is lost. Then everyone will be damned, so they must co exist.

That's the direction I really think they are going with this.

Would you rather her have died alone? Or in the arms of the person she loved? They had to have their last moment together people. If she would have just been dead already you'd probably be griping about that instead.:rolleyes:

My first reaction was the same...why am I watching her die twice?

But we didn't watch her die twice. We only watched her die once. She wasn't dead at the end of last season.

But we didn't watch her die twice. We only watched her die once. She wasn't dead at the end of last season.
Exactly!

Exactly!

Yeah, I think folks assumed she died with the white light but really she was just transported with the rest, to be found later and then die. And that was such a sweet scene, how can you get mad at it? I much prefer that then her just blowing up alone at the bottom of a hole.

But we didn't watch her die twice. We only watched her die once. She wasn't dead at the end of last season.

I realize that. I realized that when I was watching. I think my initial reaction was that we'd already had one super moving Juliet death scene...it felt like overkill to see another, like the writers were milking the Juliet/Sawyer farewell. But as I said, I now realize there was more to it than just milking her death.

They had to give fans their closure with Juliet. A time to mourn. At first I didn't like it much because it seemed like a contrivence, but once I got past that point it was sweet. I wonder where she went that she's asking someone to go for coffee? Dutch,yet!

Just be thankful she got buried. Locke's carcass has been getting dragged around for a couple of seasons now. One version of Weekend At Bernies is enough.

They had to give fans their closure with Juliet. A time to mourn. At first I didn't like it much because it seemed like a contrivence, but once I got past that point it was sweet. I wonder where she went that she's asking someone to go for coffee? Dutch,yet!
Yep, it was very much like Desmond, Charlotte and all the others that had been affected by the electromagnetic energy. I'm sure you noticed that Sawyer had to reassure her that it was him there with her. Sure, he may have just been consoling because she was all banged and hurt but it seemed more that like he could tell that she wasn't with him; like she was somewhere else. The scene was bittersweet and intriguing, can't wait to find out where she went.

Just be thankful she got buried. Locke's carcass has been getting dragged around for a couple of seasons now. One version of Weekend At Bernies is enough.
Good point, it was sad to see Sawyer take on that task; such a hard thing to do for sure.

If they didn't show her die for sure (buried and everything) then there would be all sorts of speculation as to where she was and if she was really dead etc.

Just be thankful she got buried. Locke's carcass has been getting dragged around for a couple of seasons now. One version of Weekend At Bernies is enough.
I spent the last eight months disturbed by the idea that she ended up encased in the cement wall of the Swan hatch. I'm glad they got her out.

And if anyone is thankful she's buried, it's Kate. She couldn't WAIT to help Sawyer with that!

Well I agree with what others have said here - we only saw Juliet die once.

And I was totally gutted by the idea that Juliet might die alone and in pain at the bottom of a shaft last season. Plus, she was the one to bring up Jack's "live together, die alone" saying before they all went to help Jack. If she were to then die alone after that...it would be totally in contradiction to the whole "live together, die alone" theme! I hate that she died but I'm glad she at least went while Sawyer was hugging her.

The amount of whining about Juliet's death is a bit over the top. The woman did not die twice...she died once. Clearly she was fully alive and well in the final moments of last season's premiere. To have started S6 without a proper send-off would have caused outrage with many of the fans. TPTB just cant win.

exactly

Would you rather her have died alone? Or in the arms of the person she loved? They had to have their last moment together people. If she would have just been dead already you'd probably be griping about that instead.:rolleyes:

yes!

As a huge Juliette fan, sure it pained me to see here "die" all over again, but I was quite thankful that she, unlike so many other characters who have kicked the bucket on this show, at least got to have one last kiss, be together with her loved one in her final moments, have a proper and respectful sendoff from the show, etc, etc.
Leaving her ambiguously bleeding out at the bottom of a shaft by herself would have been a horrible way to leave things, imo.
Yes, the scene in LA X felt a tad contrived to me, and also left me yelling "Why don't you haul her out and rush her to the Temple with Sayid?" (although I guess jacob wouldn't have allowed that, the jerk), but whatever. Overall, it left me feeling more at peace and satisfied with the show. I already feel robbed over Locke's death, but not dead, but oh yeah he really is dead scenario. Didn't need another one.

Just be thankful she got buried. Locke's carcass has been getting dragged around for a couple of seasons now. One version of Weekend At Bernies is enough.

LOL
so true

Just be thankful she got buried. Locke's carcass has been getting dragged around for a couple of seasons now. One version of Weekend At Bernies is enough.
LOL! Indeed!

Yeah, she only died once. The end of last season broke my heart thinking of her alone, in pain, terrified and wanting to make it all count for something by trying to detonate the bomb. I hated seeing that scene played over several times but am glad she wasn't alone at the end.

So Jacob is God, the guy in Black is the Devil, the Devil claims the people are crap and can be easily swayed, God challenges him to prove him wrong, sort of like the book of Job right? The island is the playing field and the people the guinea pigs. The mysterious properties of the island can be explained if you consider the island an in between. As like the Catholic view of purgatory, close enough to see Earth and the light of Heaven but to far away to get to either of them. You can't kill God or the Devil because then the balance is lost. Then everyone will be damned, so they must co exist.

That's the direction I really think they are going with this.

And as far as Jacob: Good and MIB: Bad, wellllll, I'm not so convinced about this. I think you're wrapping things up way too soon. Jacob may seem the good one in the short term, but in terms of the whole picture he may not come off so great. I think we need to keep watching him.

And as far as Jacob: Good and MIB: Bad, wellllll, I'm not so convinced about this. I think you're wrapping things up way too soon. Jacob may seem the good one in the short term, but in terms of the whole picture he may not come off so great. I think we need to keep watching him.

I found myself watching this as if Jacob were the bad guy as well. Nothing is ever as it seems on this show.

So you took the death from last season that kicked *** and ruined it by bringing her back for 5 minutes just so she could kiss James. WTF? Really? Why? Pointless. So she could say some secret...UGH. This season so far sucks and it's a shame it's the last one. I sort of knew I would be disappointed. The fact I already have how it ends figured out sucks too. LAME!

So Jacob is God, the guy in Black is the Devil, the Devil claims the people are crap and can be easily swayed, God challenges him to prove him wrong, sort of like the book of Job right? The island is the playing field and the people the guinea pigs. The mysterious properties of the island can be explained if you consider the island an in between. As like the Catholic view of purgatory, close enough to see Earth and the light of Heaven but to far away to get to either of them. You can't kill God or the Devil because then the balance is lost. Then everyone will be damned, so they must co exist.

That's the direction I really think they are going with this.


I totally agree with the second part of your statement about the God and the devil. But I definitely don't believe this season sucks!

I found myself watching this as if Jacob were the bad guy as well. Nothing is ever as it seems on this show.

Ditto.

Jacob gave Sawyer a pen so he could write a letter that allowed him to hold onto his anger; he taught Kate that she could get away with stealing; I personally think he distracted Sayid so Nadia would be killed, thus creating a tremendous need for revenge in Sayid.

His motivations seem suspect, at the very least.

To be honest, they could have found her body already dead and Miles could have gleaned all the info she said to Sawyer by communicating with her corpse . That would have saved some time - which is at a premium as there's only 15 hours left!

However, I do believe that her comment about Coffee will become important. We'll probably see her drinking some with Sawyer in the alt-timeline.

To be honest, they could have found her body already dead and Miles could have gleaned all the info she said to Sawyer by communicating with her corpse . That would have saved some time - which is at a premium as there's only 15 hours left!
Agree completely with this. I really felt they spent too much time on the digging out of Juliet's body, only to draw out her goodbye scene with Sawyer one more time. It really took away some of the powerful emotion of the scene where she let go at the end of 'The Incident'.

However, I do believe that her comment about Coffee will become important. We'll probably see her drinking some with Sawyer in the alt-timeline.

I sincerely doubt it'll be Sawyer. Way too obvious, and it was pretty clear to me that she wasn't speaking to him in her alternate conversation, because she was surprised to see him when he roused her back on the Island.

TPTB don't do obvious, and everyone is automatically assuming she was speaking to Sideways!James. They do love their mind-:censored:, so I'm betting it'll be the last person we expect having coffee with Juliet. I'm hoping it's either Jack or her sister Rachel, but it could also end up being Ben! :eek2:

So you took the death from last season that kicked *** and ruined it by bringing her back for 5 minutes just so she could kiss James. WTF? Really? Why? Pointless. So she could say some secret...UGH. This season so far sucks and it's a shame it's the last one. I sort of knew I would be disappointed. The fact I already have how it ends figured out sucks too. LAME!

Actually, Juliet never died last season. All we saw was her pounding on the bomb and then a flash of white light. There was no death scene, which in my opinion, explains why they gave her a "death scene" with James.

I don't see how Sawyer losing hold of Juliet's hand is a great "death" scene. It was an emotional scene, but there was no final moment of actual conversation and saying goodbye between them until the season six premiere.

I didn't think it was ruined at all, and in fact, it actually gave gravitas to Sawyer's grief. Of course Sawyer takes his grief and anger out on others and doesn't seem to acknowledge that his own actions contributed to her death, but that's another discussion.

Bottom line: It was a great scene, and I felt it was necessary.

I think you got it. Plain and simple.

I don't see how Sawyer losing hold of Juliet's hand is a great "death" scene. It was an emotional scene, but there was no final moment of actual conversation and saying goodbye between them until the season six premiere.


Sometimes, that's how it is. Hell, that's usually how it is in real life. We don't always get to say goodbye.

One of the most spectacular death scenes I've ever seen is when Joss Whedon killed Wash in the movie 'Serenity'. He went out a hero, but it was just WHAM!BAM! and over. He was gone, without a whisper. And his wife was sitting three feet away from him watching, and she had no time to get a "goodbye" scene with him, she had to get moving, she was in a life or death situation and she had to keep fighting. It was, IMO, one of the best on-screen deaths any character has ever gotten, because it damn near destroyed me, as well as Zoe.

That was how her "death" scene felt to me at the end of the Incident. The tragedy of it all, she realized that she couldn't get herself free, and if she didn't let go of Sawyer, he'd die too. So she made the sacrifice and let him go.

They didn't name her Juliet for nothing. :cry:

Agree completely with this. I really felt they spent too much time on the digging out of Juliet's body, only to draw out her goodbye scene with Sawyer one more time. It really took away some of the powerful emotion of the scene where she let go at the end of 'The Incident'.

Die already...right?

Juliet didn't die because the bomb didn't go off. They flashed. None of them died. So why, when she was alive in the last moments of season 5 would she be dead in the premiere? If she had just kicked the bucket from her injuries from the fall, it would never have been explained. Eventually someone would have said, "well...what about Juliet?" Why did she die and no one else did. For 8 long months of the hiatus everyone was wondering if everyone was going to die. So, I guess they wanted to answer that burning question.

Taking all that miserable time digging her out was for storyline purposes. Sawyer needed to dig her out to hear her say that cryptic coffee remark, tell him that she wanted to tell him something and then have Miles relay it to Sawyer. It Worked is part of the storyline. That's why they wasted time digging her out. oh, and the fact that it was an epic scene. Thanks to JH and EM for giving real closure to the storyline that was important to them.

And finally, the coffee remark. Let's go dutch with Rachel? yeah, maybe. With Jack? maybe. Could maybe be Hurley or Sayid too. Maybe even Kate. But I'm going to go with the girlish way that she said it that she was talking to Sawyer. Because after all, we just watched a love story between the two of them. Who else would she be referring to.

One episode down, the rest of the season to go.

I dont think either of Jacob or MiB are necessarily good or evil. These are human concepts which might not apply to either of them. One could be considered as good or bad as the other.. why does one have to be bad or good. What if its just too dudes having a disagreement and doing whatever it takes to beat the other..

I think it was doubly heartwrenching because we had to cry over Juliet twice, but yes technically, she only died once.

I too am glad they made it so she didn't have to die alone (even better, she got to die in the arms of the man she loved). She lost her life helping others, she was a great character, and she deserved it. I'm glad this character at least got a nice send off, and that based on the coffee line, it looks as if we'll be fortunate enough to see her again. Hopefully getting coffee with Sawyer. I really grew to love those two together last season.

I think most people felt like it was a fake-out, or that we had to watch Juliet die twice, because of the way they wrote and filmed it. She screamed, she cried, she fell down a 300 foot shaft into a twisted pile of very dangerous and sharp metal. We saw her lying lifeless at the bottom, only to have the GOTCHA! moment where she began breathing and coughing. So no, technically, she wasn't dead then, but it was most certainly presented to the audience that way. The writers do love their GOTCHA!s, though. ;)

Juliet did only die once, but it felt entirely too dragged out by the point she did. And as much as I adored her character, I was to the point of "enough already!" by the time she actually did kick it.

It thought it was sweet. He got to hold her while she passed on. Certainly better than being alone all twisted up in the metal after trying to set off the bomb that kept her from her safe and happy life with James off the island.

If it's meant to be......

Everyone keeps "correcting" those saying we saw Juliet die twice. No one means that we literally saw her die twice. The problem is that the whole thing was dragged on and on.

In the finale she was dragged into the hole by those magic grabbing chains and had her sappy moment with Sawyer holding her by her hand while they declare their love and Sawyer delivers the line every fictional character gets to say in this type of overdone, contrived situation... "Don't you let go!". So she falls to her death.. no wait she somehow survived that huge fall into a pit of debris... and she seemingly uses her last ounce of life to noblely smack the nuke with a rock. Fade to white. We assume she's dead from the blast or at the very least from her fall and injuries.

But no, she's still not dead. In fact, after waiting over a year for the new season, we're going to spend the first hour of the premiere dealing with Juliet still dying. Who is she Rasputin?

So what we do get during that long drawn out hour? More cheese like this horrible dialogue...

Juliet: James, kiss me.
Sawyer: You got it Blondie.

Agh. I wouldn't be surprised if Juliet crawled out of her grave for one last melodramatic moment with Sawyer





The "secret" was revealed that Juliet realized the plan "worked," in other words, the existence of an alternate timeline. It might prove to be a crucial bit of info for the island losties to work off of later on, you never know.



Juliet tells Miles "it worked". Great. Now are Sawyer and/or Miles going to actually share this seemingly important bit of info with everyone else? Somehow I doubt it. The characters are written like imbeciles and rarely share info despite being in life and death situations where they seem to want to find solutions and discover what is going on.

So what we do get during that long drawn out hour? More cheese like this horrible dialogue...

Juliet: James, kiss me.
Sawyer: You got it Blondie.

Agh. I wouldn't be surprised if Juliet crawled out of her grave for one last melodramatic moment with Sawyer
:biglaugh:

Reminds me of a line I saw in a blogger's review - - "One half expected a polar bear to spring up behind the couple and serenade them with a violin." LMAO, so true!

Juliet tells Miles "it worked". Great. Now are Sawyer and/or Miles going to actually share this seemingly important bit of info with everyone else? Somehow I doubt it. The characters are written like imbeciles and rarely share info despite being in life and death situations where they seem to want to find solutions and discover what is going on.

I doubt it as well. Because they had no idea what she was talking about, it made no sense, and they could never in a zillion years know whether she had traveled briefly to the Sideways universe, or that such a place even exists. I think Jack may end up being the key between the 'verses, since he seemed to have some deja vu-ish stuff going on in the premiere, and seemed to recognize Desmond. So Juliet's final thought may end up meaning something to Jack, eventually. But I doubt Sawyer will ever know, or care, what "it worked" means. He don't speak destiny, whereas Jack will be all over it. ;)

....So she falls to her death.... We assume she's dead from the blast or at the very least from her fall and injuries....



There's the difference. There seem to be many of us who never ASSUMED she was dead at any of those points. It seems that only those who thought at some point she was dead think it was overdone.

There's the difference. There seem to be many of us who never ASSUMED she was dead at any of those points. It seems that only those who thought at some point she was dead think it was overdone.


No, the difference isn't merely in the assumption she's dead.

Thinking her death was overdone has more to do with the sappy chain of melodramatic events I detailed combined with the whole thing dragging into the season 6 premiere... and... d r a g g i n g... o n...... a n d...... o n...... d u r i n g....... t h e....... f i r s t...... h o u r.

No, the difference isn't merely in the assumption she's dead.

Thinking her death was overdone has more to do with the sappy chain of melodramatic events I detailed combined with the whole thing dragging into the season 6 premiere... and... d r a g g i n g... o n...... a n d...... o n...... d u r i n g....... t h e....... f i r s t...... h o u r.
Yes, this is the problem I had with it. The entire first hour of the episode was devoted to digging metal off of Juliet's head, then we had to endure the predictable and sappy "I'm here, I'll get you out of here"/"kiss me, I have to tell you something important, *FINALLY dies*". It was just...too much. It was overkill, and really detracted from the heartbreaking emotion of Juliet's S5 "exit." IMO, that sequence in the premiere should have been wrapped up in half the time, if not 15 minutes tops, in order to get the rest of the story moving on to the Temple. I would prefer this last handful of episodes to move. Juliet's Endless Death ate up too much screentime.

:twocents:

Just because IslandJuliet is dead doesn't mean that Juliet is dead in Alt Timeline. LOL You may see her die a third time! Woot!

Seriously, the part where she was having coffee with someone and offering to go dutch I'm 99% sure we'll see somewhere this season. So we'll know where she popped into after "dying" on the island. I'm starting to think that dying on the island is the only TRUE way off, and it's not a bad thing... not an ending, only a beginning. The have a new life some other time/place.

So, Smokey is really saving people when he kills them off and rips them to bits. ;)

Just because IslandJuliet is dead doesn't mean that Juliet is dead in Alt Timeline. LOL You may see her die a third time! Woot!

Seriously, the part where she was having coffee with someone and offering to go dutch I'm 99% sure we'll see somewhere this season. So we'll know where she popped into after "dying" on the island. I'm starting to think that dying on the island is the only TRUE way off, and it's not a bad thing... not an ending, only a beginning. The have a new life some other time/place.

So, Smokey is really saving people when he kills them off and rips them to bits. ;)

I had a similiar thought. Like, contrary to some theories saying they might each have to die in the Alt universe, perhaps it's quite the other way around; maybe all our guys and gals have got to die on the island before the end!!! Crazy I know, but I couldnt avoid the thought...

tally me a mark in the 'unnecessary' column.

Jules' season 5 exit was freaking awesome - that's bold and italic there - smashed at the bottom of a super villains lair the woman hit a hydrogen bomb with a bloody ROCK!

whistles! hooting! applause! ...dig her up in a desperate race for her life if you will, have James howl then cradle her in his arms and quietly weep - then bury the girl and you still get to have Miles do his coffee the De Groot route piece.

wasn't all bad, the Charlotte time amble was nicely done and genuinely affecting, and this being LOST, we are at least spared beautifully pallid ladies coughing daintily into discretely consumption spotted lacy handkerchiefs while having their husbands swear an oath they'll remarry for the sake of the children.

...we are done with the Des and Penny reunions now aren't we?

tally me a mark in the 'unnecessary' column.

Jules' season 5 exit was freaking awesome - that's bold and italic there - smashed at the bottom of a super villains lair the woman hit a hydrogen bomb with a bloody ROCK!

whistles! hooting! applause! ...dig her up in a desperate race for her life if you will, have James howl then cradle her in his arms and quietly weep - then bury the girl and you still get to have Miles do his coffee the De Groot route piece.

wasn't all bad, the Charlotte time amble was nicely done and genuinely affecting, and this being LOST, we are at least spared beautifully pallid ladies coughing daintily into discretely consumption spotted lacy handkerchiefs while having their husbands swear an oath they'll remarry for the sake of the children.

...we are done with the Des and Penny reunions now aren't we?

I can never tire of a Des/Penny reunion. Bring 'em on and stretch them out as much as you'd like. I'm good with it. :)

No, the difference isn't merely in the assumption she's dead.

Thinking her death was overdone has more to do with the sappy chain of melodramatic events I detailed combined with the whole thing dragging into the season 6 premiere... and... d r a g g i n g... o n...... a n d...... o n...... d u r i n g....... t h e....... f i r s t...... h o u r.

That's your take on it. I didn't think it was overdone at all, considering the only portion of time she died was a few seconds in the 1st episode of this season. Otherwise, she was just as alive as Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Jin, et.al. What you call "melodramatic", I call necessary to highlight several things 1) that whatever they did at the construction site caused something to happen 2) the depth of Sawyer's love for Juliet 3) to redraw the battlelines between Sawyer & Jack 4) to pinpoint that they were at the Swan hatch at some point after Desmond turned the failsafe key (and that's just 4 off the top of my head).
100%
I can never tire of a Des/Penny reunion. Bring 'em on and stretch them out as much as you'd like. I'm good with it. :)

I agree.
100%
I can never tire of a Des/Penny reunion. Bring 'em on and stretch them out as much as you'd like. I'm good with it. :)

I agree.

If they didn't show her die for sure (buried and everything) then there would be all sorts of speculation as to where she was and if she was really dead etc.


thats sounds about right.


remember how important it is to be buried in LOST, seems to have some meaning to allowing you to move on...... ah la Egyptian beliefs.


Yeah....I thought the same thing....why spend so much time bringer her back ..digging her out...and then having her die?

Maybe they will show us Juliets Flashbacks after the white light. maybe that was the reason to show her alive, so we could see her Flashbacks


--- we are not left with, what happened to Juliets body, is she alive? we are shown she was transfered to 2007 as well.
--- Possibly some "Flashes" will be shown of Juliets ( much like Desmonds) and will now make sense , possibly shown in a future episode.
--- Juliet tells Sawyer (through Miles) "It Worked" ... this knowledge might pay off somewhere?
--- Sawyer crawls down the hole to reach Juliet and they have a goodbye moment. was Sawyer a White Rabbit ?
--- Juliet is now buried. she can now move on in the afterlife.

That's your take on it.

Obviously. But I'm also trying to explain why many others feel the same way.



I didn't think it was overdone at all, considering the only portion of time she died was a few seconds in the 1st episode of this season. Otherwise, she was just as alive as Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Jin, et.al.


The only portion of time she died was a few seconds and yet somehow her death was stretched through the first hour of the premiere. First she falls into the hole (but not before a melodramstic good-bye with Sawyer)... but she's not dead... then she smacks the nuke... but she's not dead...she smacks it again... but she's not dead... finally the screen goes white. Fans wait nearly a year for the premiere and guess what.. she's not dead... she's yelling under the debris, they clear debris, she stops yelling... but she's not dead...then we have ANOTHER good-bye with Sawyer. Finally, she's dead and we're an hour into the premiere.



What you call "melodramatic", I call necessary to highlight several things...

What I call melodramatic is the whole scenario during which Juliet died, the hackey, cheesey dialogue, and the way it dragged on and on.




1) that whatever they did at the construction site caused something to happen 2) the depth of Sawyer's love for Juliet 3) to redraw the battlelines between Sawyer & Jack 4) to pinpoint that they were at the Swan hatch at some point after Desmond turned the failsafe key (and that's just 4 off the top of my head).



1) Could have been accomplished without hackey, cheesey dialogue, and dragging the whole scenario with Juliet on and on.

2) Did anyone doubt Sawyers love for Juliet after last season's finale? Did we need more hackey, cheesey dialogue and another declaration of love?

3) This didn't need dragged on and on to remind the audience Sawyer is angry with Jack. That could easily be accomplished with a line or two.

4) I don't get this one at all. Again, the whole thing didn't need dragged on.

Well it's subjective. What one finds tedious and repetative others find enjoyable to watch. Neither are right or wrong, it's all perception.

Well it's subjective. What one finds tedious and repetative others find enjoyable to watch. Neither are right or wrong, it's all perception.

This is very true. Personally, I didn't find the dragging out enjoyable at all, and I certainly didn't enjoy seeing Juliet, looking like road-kill, having to ask to be kissed before she died. She was once one of my favorite characters, a strong, intriguing female. Until the writers threw her under the bus.

Literally, from the looks of her blood-stained face. :frown:

"yet somehow her death was stretched through the first hour of the premiere. "

That's because you assumed she was dying. Take away that assumption & it didn't stretch at all.
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4) I don't get this one at all. Again, the whole thing didn't need dragged on.

They had to have a reason to go to the hole where the hatch had been - so we could see Desmond's exercise bike - to show what time period they were in.

As to the "two deaths/not two deaths" thing. Even Elizabeth Mitchell notes that viewers are treated to two deaths from her character in an interview in TVGuide. Sure there's wiggle room to say she really didn't die in the fall. But there were two death scenes. Big drawn out goodbyes with people emoting all over the place. So, there's that.

So Juliet survives to die again. That's what the creators wanted, so we get that, fine. But it was such a protracted scene getting to her, and then the van, and the climbing past stuff. What did we get out of this? Going dutch, and coffee?

We're rattling towards an end here, and there is much to cover. Why did they decide to chew up this amount of screen time on a character that we already assume is dead? Everyone got moved around in the timeshift, why couldn't they have just put her outside the hole with all the fake tin debris on her? She moans, Sawyer gets to do his anguished routine, she says her seemingly useless blather, and they kiss. I get that the scene is a paean to people who love that kind of melodrama, but they could have tightened it up. So much wasted time just to get to the plot point. "It worked"

So Juliet survives to die again. That's what the creators wanted, so we get that, fine. But it was such a protracted scene getting to her, and then the van, and the climbing past stuff. What did we get out of this? Going dutch, and coffee?

We're rattling towards an end here, and there is much to cover. Why did they decide to chew up this amount of screen time on a character that we already assume is dead? Everyone got moved around in the timeshift, why couldn't they have just put her outside the hole with all the fake tin debris on her? She moans, Sawyer gets to do his anguished routine, she says her seemingly useless blather, and they kiss. I get that the scene is a paean to people who love that kind of melodrama, but they could have tightened it up. So much wasted time just to get to the plot point. "It worked"

I would love answers to every single question you asked here. Hopefully Darlton will address it some day. I know Juliet was a much-beloved character to many fans, but even I, as a huge Juliet fan from her very first moment on screen, was very disappointed with how her dying/actual death scene(s) were handled.

Less than 20 hours to go, I don't want to watch Sawyer wrenching on a metal beam or chaining it to a van for an entire ONE of those precious remaining hours.

"yet somehow her death was stretched through the first hour of the premiere. "

That's because you assumed she was dying. Take away that assumption & it didn't stretch at all.


Her death stretched the first hour of the premiere because I assumed she was dying? That doesn't make sense. 1) She was dying. 2) No matter what I thought, her death still stretched the first hour. No matter what I thought, the scenes involving Juliet took up a lot of time and stretched the first hour.



They had to have a reason to go to the hole where the hatch had been - so we could see Desmond's exercise bike - to show what time period they were in.

And we needed all the Juliet melodrama and everything to be dragged on for that to happen?

why couldn't they have just put her outside the hole with all the fake tin debris on her?

Because she was down in the hole. I didn't find it to be that drawn out. There was a lot of important stuff that happened during that time.
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. 1) She was dying.

We didn't know that for sure. It was an assumption people made.

2) No matter what I thought, her death still stretched the first hour. No matter what I thought, the scenes involving Juliet took up a lot of time and stretched the first hour.

No. Her death took a matter of seconds. And so what if those scenes took up a lot of time - there was some important stuff in them - probably more than we know at this time.

No. Her death took a matter of seconds. And so what if those scenes took up a lot of time - there was some important stuff in them - probably more than we know at this time.

I think the problem most people had with the "drawn out" scene was that...it took up the entire first hour of the episode for them to do very little. They tried to lift heavy metal off of Juliet. It wouldn't budge. They pushed and pulled and Sawyer yelled and yelled. Then they went to get the van. They tied a chain to the metal and pushed and pulled some more. Finally it budged. Then the scene where Sawyer got to Juliet was (IMO) complete overkill. "I'm here", "kiss me", all of that was completely unnecessary in order to get to the heart of the issue.

I think the scene could have been consolidated into 2 segments, 10 minutes tops. Sawyer :censored:-slaps Jack a bit, Kate hears Juliet. They start ripping metal aside, Sawyer jumps down into the hole. Commercial. Next segment, Sawyer gets to her just as she was coughing up some final blood and gasping her last breath, and absolutely all she needed to say to him was "we should go get coffee. We can go dutch! James, I need to tell you...it's important..." *dies*

None of the other "*sobs* oh noes, it didn't work" and "I wanted you to be able to go home" stuff was remotely necessary. Sawyer and Juliet already had their goodbye at the end of S5. He knew she loved him, great. She knew he was loyal to her, fantastic. She had to ask for a final, bloody kiss, really? The only purpose of delaying the actual moment of her death was to get to the "coffee" talk. I absolutely agree with everyone who says it ate up entirely too much screentime, wasting Sawyer and Kate's first hour in the final season. At least Hurley, Miles, Jin and Jack got to deal with Sayid. Cut the Juliet Dies arc in half even, and they could have been at the Temple 30 minutes sooner.

We didn't know that for sure. It was an assumption people made.


I said she was dying because she is now dead. So before she was dead, she was dying. You keep wanting to argue something that doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter if people assumed she was dying. My criticisms still apply. The point is that the whole situation with Juliet was melodramatic and dragged on and on. Is that better that I say Juliet's situation instead of Juliet dying? I realize that you're trying to imply that those who "assumed" she was dying are the ones with criticisms but that's not the case and it's irrelevant anyway.




2) No matter what I thought, her death still stretched the first hour. No matter what I thought, the scenes involving Juliet took up a lot of time and stretched the first hour.





No. Her death took a matter of seconds.

You're really stuck on the idea that her death took a matter of seconds huh? Do you think that makes some kind of a point that invalidates my criticisms? It doesn't. If it will help put this issue to rest- I agree with you. A person's death happens in a second. We saw Juliet die in a second in Sawyer's arms. Unfortunately, everything leading up to that second involving Juliet dragged on and on and is the subject of my criticisms.

So, again I'll say it this way... Juliet's situation stretched the first hour. Juliet's situation dragged on and on. Juliet's situation was melodramatic, cheesey, and hackey. Juliet's situation dragged from last season's finale into the premiere and then for another hour.




And so what if those scenes took up a lot of time - there was some important stuff in them - probably more than we know at this time.

So what if those scenes took up a lot of time? I've already answered that. But it's nice to see you finally acknowledge that her scenes took up a lot of time. That's a point I've been trying to make again and again.

Important stuff in those scenes? You already listed 4 "important" things and I pointed out the problems with each and why we didn't need Juliet's "situation" dragged out and all the BS melodrama for any of those important things.
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I think the problem most people had with the "drawn out" scene was that...it took up the entire first hour of the episode for them to do very little. They tried to lift heavy metal off of Juliet. It wouldn't budge. They pushed and pulled and Sawyer yelled and yelled. Then they went to get the van. They tied a chain to the metal and pushed and pulled some more. Finally it budged. Then the scene where Sawyer got to Juliet was (IMO) complete overkill. "I'm here", "kiss me", all of that was completely unnecessary in order to get to the heart of the issue.

I think the scene could have been consolidated into 2 segments, 10 minutes tops. Sawyer :censored:-slaps Jack a bit, Kate hears Juliet. They start ripping metal aside, Sawyer jumps down into the hole. Commercial. Next segment, Sawyer gets to her just as she was coughing up some final blood and gasping her last breath, and absolutely all she needed to say to him was "we should go get coffee. We can go dutch! James, I need to tell you...it's important..." *dies*

None of the other "*sobs* oh noes, it didn't work" and "I wanted you to be able to go home" stuff was remotely necessary. Sawyer and Juliet already had their goodbye at the end of S5. He knew she loved him, great. She knew he was loyal to her, fantastic. She had to ask for a final, bloody kiss, really? The only purpose of delaying the actual moment of her death was to get to the "coffee" talk. I absolutely agree with everyone who says it ate up entirely too much screentime, wasting Sawyer and Kate's first hour in the final season. At least Hurley, Miles, Jin and Jack got to deal with Sayid. Cut the Juliet Dies arc in half even, and they could have been at the Temple 30 minutes sooner.



EXACTLY.

It's as though the whole situation with Juliet was padding for the premiere. Don't they have more important stuff to get to? We only have 17 episodes in this season, countless plot points to resolve, and a large part of one episode was spent on this situation with Juliet? Please.

..... Unfortunately, everything leading up to that second involving Juliet dragged on and on and is the subject of my criticisms.....

.... Juliet's situation dragged from last season's finale into the premiere and then for another hour......

And how many times has everyone thought something was a time-waster in the last 5 seasons & it turns out that something everyone thought was minor ended up being important?





But it's nice to see you finally acknowledge that her scenes took up a lot of time. That's a point I've been trying to make again and again.

I never said that her scenes didn't take up a lot of time, just that her death didn't take up a lot of time. The difference is that I don't think they were irrelevant. I think there is a whole lot more there than any of us realizes.. therefore they were important.

Important stuff in those scenes? You already listed 4 "important" things and I pointed out the problems with each and why we didn't need Juliet's "situation" dragged out and all the BS melodrama for any of those important things.

And I don't agree with you. My points were all valid. If you don't agree that's your problem, not mine. I don't think it was melodramatic. And you don't know if the scenes were unimportant or not.

.

Die already...right?

Juliet didn't die because the bomb didn't go off. They flashed. None of them died. So why, when she was alive in the last moments of season 5 would she be dead in the premiere? If she had just kicked the bucket from her injuries from the fall, it would never have been explained. Eventually someone would have said, "well...what about Juliet?" Why did she die and no one else did. For 8 long months of the hiatus everyone was wondering if everyone was going to die. So, I guess they wanted to answer that burning question.

Taking all that miserable time digging her out was for storyline purposes. Sawyer needed to dig her out to hear her say that cryptic coffee remark, tell him that she wanted to tell him something and then have Miles relay it to Sawyer. It Worked is part of the storyline. That's why they wasted time digging her out. oh, and the fact that it was an epic scene. Thanks to JH and EM for giving real closure to the storyline that was important to them.

And finally, the coffee remark. Let's go dutch with Rachel? yeah, maybe. With Jack? maybe. Could maybe be Hurley or Sayid too. Maybe even Kate. But I'm going to go with the girlish way that she said it that she was talking to Sawyer. Because after all, we just watched a love story between the two of them. Who else would she be referring to.

One episode down, the rest of the season to go.

Very well stated. And I so hope it's James that she has coffee with but I could see the writers making it Jack. Both doctors, Jules comes out to CA. for some reason (not now - our weather sucks!), gets introduced to Jack at the hospital. But wait, Sawyer could come in on a medical emergency! Jules fixes him up, James gives her that irresistible smile . . . ah, a girl can dream.

There's the difference. There seem to be many of us who never ASSUMED she was dead at any of those points. It seems that only those who thought at some point she was dead think it was overdone.

Agree. I remember last season when some of us dared to propose she was still alive. We were thought nuts, she couldn't survive the bomb, which was another assumption - the bomb really going off. Someone suggested if they flashed at the same time as the "bomb" going off she might still be alive if they ended up in '07. But he was ridiculed, too. I so enjoyed shouting out "she didn't die!" :biggrin:

I had a similiar thought. Like, contrary to some theories saying they might each have to die in the Alt universe, perhaps it's quite the other way around; maybe all our guys and gals have got to die on the island before the end!!! Crazy I know, but I couldnt avoid the thought...

Not crazy at all!

Well it's subjective. What one finds tedious and repetative others find enjoyable to watch. Neither are right or wrong, it's all perception.

Now that's the spirit. :polite:

I absolutely agree with everyone who says it ate up entirely too much screentime, wasting Sawyer and Kate's first hour in the final season.


Given that Kate hasn't had anything relevant or necessary to advance the plot for about 3 seasons now i'd say her scenes in the premiere were finally worthwhile. Even though her beating up of the marshall in a crowded airpot (WTF! After the catastrophic court case in Eggtown the writers think we're stupid) was completely pointless. And trying to break off her handcuffs with a pen was laughable (for another thread anyway).

Plus, the writers have said Juliet's death will resonate in and dictate the direction of Sawyer's story this season and also that "Juliet is responsible for the end game of the show", therefore these scenes were necessary. May not seem to gel with the flow of the second hour with the temple and stuff but it will affect the long term story of the season, so we have to wait for the pay off when we get answers (fingers crossed) on this supposed ALT timeline and Sawyer's fate etc.

Plus the fact that you say it wasted Sawyer and Kate's screentime (i'm guessing you mean screentime as a duo as opposed to individual scenes) then you should have just said that in your first post then we'd all be a lot clearer: You're a skater who hates it when Kate or Sawyer have screentime with other characters that may indicate they love other people. We get it. ;)

IMO, Sawyer should spend the majority of the season in scenes with Locke and Richard because he'd be far more interesting than the usual triangle drama. And Kate should stick with Clare and Aaron or die a horrible death after being forced to watch reruns of her own centrics on a loop.