Since we saw Alt-Ethan in this episode living off-Island as a "good" doctor, will we also see an alternate Ben at some point? And how/what will he be in the alternate timeline? Will he be the essentially same lying, manipulative Ben we've come to know and love, the result of his unloving father's emotional abuse over Ben's mother dying giving birth to Ben? Or will he be the shy, sensitive Ben we saw as a young boy when he first came to the Island with Dharma, connecting with little Annie? In the Alt timeline, Sayid never went back to the 1970's Island to shoot little Ben, which means Kate and Sawyer never brought little Ben to Richard who never brought little Ben to the Temple to heal him and little Ben then never lost his "innocence." So assuming little Ben got off the Island when he was a child, maybe adult Ben in the Alt-timeline will be married to Annie and a loving father of 10 childen, or maybe the head of a do-gooder non-profit organization like Feed the Children (which would be a flip on the child-abductions that Ben had ordered in the original timeline).

Well, going off the assumption that the Island has been out of commission since 1977, I don't think there would be an "alt-ben."

He was a kid on the Island living with the Others in 1977. If the Island sunk any time before his maturity (and thus his ability to leave the island) I think Ben would be dead in this universe.

Pretty sure there is no "Alt-Ben". In the alt timeline, he would have sunk with the island. Also, I am pretty sure that the whole "Sayid going back and shooting him and Ben becoming an other thing still happened". Why do you say that would not have happened?? I am confused.

Well..let's look at Ben's qualifications in an off island light. He's sneaky, manipulative, lies CONSTANTLY, is always playing multiple sides against each other so he can achieve his true agenda, an agenda that is never known, but can only be supposed by looking at the destruction he causes.

I'd say Ben is president in the new reality.

:JC_goodpost:
lol

Even if Ben got off the island with the other kids, it is completely unclear whether or not Sayid shot Alt-Ben. The paradox that has yet to be resolved is that if 815 never crashed then they didn't go back in time (and shoot Ben) to prevent 815 from crashing. Presumably the group were on the island in 1977, because Juliet delivered Ethan and he's obviously alive in the ALT.

Pretty sure there is no "Alt-Ben". In the alt timeline, he would have sunk with the island. Also, I am pretty sure that the whole "Sayid going back and shooting him and Ben becoming an other thing still happened". Why do you say that would not have happened?? I am confused.

Well, if in the Alt-timeline the plane never crashes on the Island, then the whole chain of events that resulted in the Losties traveling back in time never happened in the Alt-timeline, which means Sayid never shot little Ben in 1977 in the Alt-timeline.

Well, going off the assumption that the Island has been out of commission since 1977, I don't think there would be an "alt-ben."

He was a kid on the Island living with the Others in 1977. If the Island sunk any time before his maturity (and thus his ability to leave the island) I think Ben would be dead in this universe.

Well, then how did Ethan get off the Island? Ethan was an infant on the Island in 1977 and he apparently made if off before the Island sunk in the Alt-timeline. And as of now we don't know for sure exactly how or when the Island sunk in the Alt-universe.

So given that TPTB gave us a nice unexpected WTF moment with
Alt-Ethan, I think they are going to drop a mega-WTF moment with an Alt-Ben.
100%

Even if Ben got off the island with the other kids, it is completely unclear whether or not Sayid shot Alt-Ben. The paradox that has yet to be resolved is that if 815 never crashed then they didn't go back in time (and shoot Ben) to prevent 815 from crashing. Presumably the group were on the island in 1977, because Juliet delivered Ethan and he's obviously alive in the ALT.

In a parallel/multiverse, there is no paradox since "what ever happened, happened" doesn't apply. There is no need for any self-consistency principle like in a single timeline/universe since a new timeline/universe branches off and avoids the paradox.

Check out this short vid with Michio Kaku talking about time travel and parallel universes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnkE2yQPw6s&feature=PlayList&p=1B829DF36754F91C&index=1

Well, then how did Ethan get off the Island? Ethan was an infant on the Island in 1977 and he apparently made if off before the Island sunk in the Alt-timeline. And as of now we don't know for sure exactly how or when the Island sunk in the Alt-universe.

The kids living in Dharmaville got on subs and boats with their Mother's and escaped.

Ben wasn't in Dharmaville, he was with the Others, recovering.

.
100%

The kids living in Dharmaville got on subs and boats with their Mother's and escaped.

Ben wasn't in Dharmaville, he was with the Others, recovering.

Yes in the original timeline Ben was with the Others in 1977, but only because he was shot by Sayid. But since Sayid never goes back in time to shoot little Ben in the Alt-timeline/universe, little Ben in the Alt-tiimeline/universe would not have been brought to the Others to save his life and he still would have been living been in Dharmaville when the other childen departed.

I'd say Ben is president in the new reality.

Or more likely, a Fox News pundit.
100%
Yes in the original timeline Ben was with the Others in 1977, but only because he was shot by Sayid. But since Sayid never goes back in time to shoot little Ben in the Alt-timeline/universe, little Ben in the Alt-tiimeline/universe would not have been brought to the Others to save his life and he still would have been living been in Dharmaville when the other childen departed.

hmm, good point there.
I expect we might see him pop up then, since everyone in the universe randomly lives in LA now for no reason.

Since we don't know when or why the island sank, any number of possibilities exist.

The DI could have done the logical thing after an employee's kid set a VW on fire, sent it crashing into a building, stole his father's keys and released a hostile -- sent Roger Linus and his kid as far away from the island as they could with the island sinking at a later time, after Ben was long gone.

The island may not have sank like a boulder, allowing time to evacuate.

I like the president idea a lot. Claire's artist boyfriend looked a lot like Ben. He is Claire's boyfriend in this universe, making Aaron his son. Its sort of like the surreal image of that woman that looked like Claire taking Aaron. Similar looking people giving the audience Deja Vu. Ben fathering and abandoning a child is also the opposite mirror image of him stealing a child as he did with Alex. Probably wont happen, but I think we will get a big reveal with who Ben is.

Yes in the original timeline Ben was with the Others in 1977, but only because he was shot by Sayid. But since Sayid never goes back in time to shoot little Ben in the Alt-timeline/universe, little Ben in the Alt-tiimeline/universe would not have been brought to the Others to save his life and he still would have been living been in Dharmaville when the other childen departed.

I don't think so. The alt universe created after Jack detonated the H-bomb.
In that universe, Ben didn't escape and was shot by Sayid.

If you're going to say them not going back causes the island stuff to happen all over again, that'd be a 3rd alt universe.

There will be an alt Ben. There's an alt of practically everyone so far. Where would the alt part be with our a Ben to do all those wonderful performances. The island sinking is the only thing I really don't understand and won't till they tell us.

I don't think so. The alt universe created after Jack detonated the H-bomb.
In that universe, Ben didn't escape and was shot by Sayid.

If you're going to say them not going back causes the island stuff to happen all over again, that'd be a 3rd alt universe.

If that is the case, then all of the time traveling Losties would have memories of their 1970's Island experiences, which could only happen if the plane crashes in 2004, which it doesn't in the Alt-timeline/universe--this would therefore create a paradox in the Alt-timeline/universe. And if the Alt Losties' were on the Island in the 1970's, there would be no need for TPTB to create parallel universes in the storytelling--there would need to be only one timeline ("whatever happened, happened") with the current Losties simply remembering via flashbacks what had previously happened in the 1970's.

I think where TPTB are going with the Alt/parallel universe plot device is that although in the Alt/parallel universe the Losties never were on the Island and live within a distinct timeline, there is/will continue to be some sort of increasing synergistic interaction between the Losties in each timeline that will culminate with them resolving their personal conflicts while fulfilling their higher purposes/destinies ("Everything that rises must converge").
One Lost blog I've read has even tied this to "quantum entanglement" in quantum physics (I'll insert the links here because I won't even attempt to explain it myself):

http://blog.zap2it.com/ithappenedlastnight/2010/02/lost.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

Hello all, I'm new here and this is my 1st post. Here goes.

Regarding the impact of the 1977 Incident on the newly exposed timelines, it occurs to me that the events leading to the detonation of the H-bomb would have some validity in the alt timeline as they were instrumental in its creation, if we look at it in terms of the alt-timeline not existing without the Incident events. I don't think that the alt timeline that we are presented with is anything like the 'business as usual' timeline that would have existed had the plane not crashed the 1st time around (ie. without the intervention of the h-bomb in 1977). Therefore the 1977 events must have some kind of influence on the alt-timeline that we are seeing now, including Sayid shooting little Ben and Ben being healed by the Others.

I think a lot will become clear once we see the alt versions of big players like Charles Widmore, Eloise Hawking and of course, Ben Linus.

Hello all, I'm new here and this is my 1st post. Here goes.

Regarding the impact of the 1977 Incident on the newly exposed timelines, it occurs to me that the events leading to the detonation of the H-bomb would have some validity in the alt timeline as they were instrumental in its creation, if we look at it in terms of the alt-timeline not existing without the Incident events. I don't think that the alt timeline that we are presented with is anything like the 'business as usual' timeline that would have existed had the plane not crashed the 1st time around (ie. without the intervention of the h-bomb in 1977). Therefore the 1977 events must have some kind of influence on the alt-timeline that we are seeing now, including Sayid shooting little Ben and Ben being healed by the Others.

I think a lot will become clear once we see the alt versions of big players like Charles Widmore, Eloise Hawking and of course, Ben Linus.

Welcome SmMat. I joined this site about a year ago and it has become quite an addictive (and luckily legal, unlike some other addictions) experience that greatly enhances the show. Part of the enjoyment of the show is extrapolating theories and insights from the cryptic story lines doled out each week and sharing and debating them with others who are similarly "lost" as to what is happening.

In any event, I agree that the 1977 events in the original timeline have "some kind of influence on the alt-timeline that we are seeing now", I just don't think that the events in the alt-timeline have a linear progression from 1977 when the H-bomb detonated. In the original timeline a time loop was created when Ben moved the frozen donkey wheel where future events changed reality as much as past events. However, by exploding the H-bomb in 1977, while the time loop remained intact in the original timeline so that the plane always crashed in 2004 on the Island ("whatever happened, happened"), it simultaneously created the distinct Alt/parallel timeline/universe that branched out in another direction rather than continue the time loop. Since TPTB have given Desmond "special" abilities with time traveling conciousness, he probably will be the key to linking the two timelines. . .but I guess we'll see.

If that is the case, then all of the time traveling Losties would have memories of their 1970's Island experiences, which could only happen if the plane crashes in 2004, which it doesn't in the Alt-timeline/universe--this would therefore create a paradox in the Alt-timeline/universe. And if the Alt Losties' were on the Island in the 1970's, there would be no need for TPTB to create parallel universes in the storytelling--there would need to be only one timeline ("whatever happened, happened") with the current Losties simply remembering via flashbacks what had previously happened in the 1970's.

Noooo... The Losties in alt.2004 wouldn't remember anything, because they never went to the Island. They were born, they lived their lives, and one day they landed on a plane in Los Angeles. You're getting confused, like Hurley talking to Miles. In both timelines, some people appeared on the island in the 70s, which led to them setting off a bomb next to an energy pocket. Now, true, the cause of those people appearing in the 70s was ultimately from a future that doesn't happen in one timeline, but that doesn't change the fact that they appeared in the 70s in the root timeline of both timelines (alt and original, which split from the root in 1977).

All this to say that original.Sayid really did shoot Ben in the 70s, in both timelines.

My money is on Ben being Mr. Baskum....the missing husband.

Noooo... The Losties in alt.2004 wouldn't remember anything, because they never went to the Island. They were born, they lived their lives, and one day they landed on a plane in Los Angeles. You're getting confused, like Hurley talking to Miles. In both timelines, some people appeared on the island in the 70s, which led to them setting off a bomb next to an energy pocket. Now, true, the cause of those people appearing in the 70s was ultimately from a future that doesn't happen in one timeline, but that doesn't change the fact that they appeared in the 70s in the root timeline of both timelines (alt and original, which split from the root in 1977).

All this to say that original.Sayid really did shoot Ben in the 70s, in both timelines.

Pretty confident in that fact huh?
Here's the problem (and the problem I had with Faraday's plan to begin with)
If 815 never crashes and the freighter is never sent, how are there people from the freighter and 815 on the Island in 1977 to detonate Jughead. For that matter in the 1950s to tell them to bury it.

The Alt. reality being a complete timeline (extending in reverse at least until the earliest time of influence of the time traveling Losties) is the only way this makes sense.

Perhaps it was the influence of their timetripping, that spun the energies of the Island to the point of "Incident" .

I'm just guessing, cause this whole sidewasy deal makes no sense and I know vague spoilers all the way up to Ep 13 and still have no clue how it will tie in.

Here are a couple related ones, which are pretty small

We WILL see Ben in alt. For one in TV guide Darlton said, imagine a Ben who lived an average normal life. We will see a Ben who is only in the smallest way like the one we know.
His centric is 4 eps away. Called Dr. Linus.

Tonights episode: "The Substitute" is Locke-centric and much like the previous ones IMNSHO the on island stuff sounds awesome and the alt stuff seems cutesy and irrellevant:46:. A teaser said Locke finally meets the man upstairs. I don't know this, but I suspect Ben will be Locke's boss/superior in the Alt. Also, somehow; I think Ben still has Alex? Weird, huh?


Sorry, if I provided a temptation you'd have rather have not had.:19:

I know, I'm not loving the "what if" timeline, but honestly, the spoilers have at least given me time to to prepare, and get used to the idea. I thnk if I was totally surprised by it all, I'd have been even more disappointed.

Just saw him as a teacher in 'the substitute' awsome episode LOL

Well, didn't take long to answer my question. . .

I'm guessing by episode 4.

I hope never. I'm tired of Ben eclipsing the rest of the main cast. He needs to go back to being a supporting character. I think the story is now about Jacob and the MIB and how the Losties (not Ben) tie into that final story.

The death of Ben would be good news. He deserves to die because he, himself, has murdered so many people. I don't see any "goodness" in Ben at all. He's evil.

In any event, I agree that the 1977 events in the original timeline have "some kind of influence on the alt-timeline that we are seeing now", I just don't think that the events in the alt-timeline have a linear progression from 1977 when the H-bomb detonated. In the original timeline a time loop was created when Ben moved the frozen donkey wheel where future events changed reality as much as past events. However, by exploding the H-bomb in 1977, while the time loop remained intact in the original timeline so that the plane always crashed in 2004 on the Island ("whatever happened, happened"), it simultaneously created the distinct Alt/parallel timeline/universe that branched out in another direction rather than continue the time loop. Since TPTB have given Desmond "special" abilities with time traveling conciousness, he probably will be the key to linking the two timelines. . .but I guess we'll see.

Thanks for the warm welcome!

After last week's episode, I totally see the alt-timeline differently. I think you are right that it has nothing to do with the H-bomb detonating in 1977 and that we are being shown how despite a different outcome, things will ultimately end up the same. Alt-Kate and Alt-Claire connecting the way they do kind of points to that. The balance of power may be shifted in some cases (Locke is still with his girl and Hurley all self-confident, etc.) but things seem to want to lean towards the same ultimate situations... Even Alt-Ben seems to have retained his cynicism... The next few episodes look very promising!