Watching tonight's episode I was struck by the themes in Lost that are echoes of Milton's "Paradise Lost, emphasis on the "Lost".

I am far from an expert on this epic poem, but I do know that it begins with the ultimate battle between good and evil, with God expelling Satan from Heaven.

The main theme, I believe, relates to the relationship of free will and destiny, especially as it applies to Satan's efforts to manipulate Adam and Eve into losing Paradise (read our Losties island).

Are there any Milton experts out there who can comment? Is "Paradise Lost" the key to unlocking Lost?

Here's the link to the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost).

I'd watch out for the idea that most great works of fiction are archetypical, and so, parallels can be drawn between them. I'd still maintain, as I have in the past, that LOST is not a parable of good and evil.

Haha. God did not withhold as much information as Jacob did. He wanted to give Adam a "chance" by sending Raphael down to answer all his questions about creation and who exactly Satan is and what he is capable. Although, Eve was not included in this information sharing, and she is the one that ended up taking the apple.

I think it's possible the writer's may be having a conversation with Paradise to some extent. But it's really unclear who Milton thinks the good guys are in Paradise Lost as at the least he seems to sympathize and write himself into both Satan and Eve.

the whole episode that was at the front of my mind too... and this text does make us empathize with the villans, just as Milton does... the Byronic hero

I'd still maintain, as I have in the past, that LOST is not a parable of good and evil.

I really hope you're right about this. If it turns out to be nothing more than that I will be very disappointed. Darlton have indicated lately in their podcasts that the show comes down to good vs evil though, which is bogus.

I really hope you're right about this. If it turns out to be nothing more than that I will be very disappointed. Darlton have indicated lately in their podcasts that the show comes down to good vs evil though, which is bogus.


are ya'll joking!?! I mean "good vs. evil" is THE story of all stories, the ultimate, what could be better than that!?! or more important? and you have to remember this entire plot was birthed in response to 911 and everything the world was questioning in those following months... it ALL boils down to good vs. evil and where that line blurs... that's what makes these characters so interesting and multi-layered, they aren't black and white, it's difficult to pin them down, but at their core, when faced with helping a pregnant woman or not, they do, etc.... it all comes down to our deepest motives - good or evil... selfless or selfish

and all good fiction (which has been referenced throughout this text) in every genre and medium is about the same thing... symbolizes something deeper... and the deepest it goes, for every religion or world view, is the battle of good vs. evil.... if it's good enough for Star Wars, then...

Milton did a wonderful job of showing the "hero's" fall from grace (Satan is nothing if not a wonderful figure who step by step becomes what he is) and also the loss of Paradise.

I dusted off my John Milton: Complete Poems and Major Prose (it's been decades) because I remembered something. This is how it begins. From pg. 211:

"The first Book proposes, first in brief, the whole Subject, Man's disobedience, and the lost thereupon of Paradise wherein he was plac't: Then touches the prime cause of his fall, the Serpent, or rather Satan in the Serpent; who revolting from God, and drawing to his side many Legions of Angels, was by the command of God driven out of Heaven with all his Crew into the great Deep. Which action past over, the Poem hastes into the midst of things, presenting Satan with his Angles now fallen into Hell, descib'd here, not in the Center (for Heaven and Earth may be suppos'd as yet not made, certainly not yet accurst) but in a place of utter darkness, fitliest call'd Chaos: Here Satan with his Angels lying on the burning Lake, thunder-struck and astonisht, after a certain space recovers, as from confusion, calls up him who next in Order and Dignity lay by him; they confer of thir miserable fall. Satan awakens all his legions, who lay till then in the same manner confounded; They rise, thir Numbers, array of Battle, thir chief Leaders nam'd, according to the Idols know afterwards in Canaan and the Countries adjoining. To these Satan directs his Speech, conforts them with hope yet of regaining Heaven, but tells them lastly of a new World and a new kind of Creature to be created, according to an ancient Prophecy or report in Heaven; for that Angels were long before this visible Creation, was the opinion of many ancient Fathers. To find out the truth of this Prophecy, and what to determine theron he refers to a full Council. What his Associates thence attempt. Pandemonium the Palace of Satan rises, suddenly built out of the Deep; The infernal Peers there sit in Council.

Of Man's First Disobedience, and the Fruit/Of that Foprbidden Tree, whose mortal taste/Brought Death into the World,and all our woe,/With loss of Eden, till one greater Man/Restore us, and regain the blissful Seat,/Sing Heav'nly Muse, that on the secret top/ Of Oreb, or of Sinai, didst inspire/That Shepherd, sho first taught the chosen Seed,/In the Beginning how the Heav'ns and Earth/Rose out of Chaos;Or if Sion Hill/Delight thee more, and Siloa's Brook that flow'd/Fast by the Oracle of God; I thence/Invoke thy aid to my advent'rous Song,/That with no middle flight intends to soar/Above the' Aonian Mount, while it pursues/Things unattempted yet in Prose or Rhyme./And chiefly Thou O Spirit, that does prefer/Before all Temples th'e upright heart and pure,/Instruct me, for Thou know'st; Thou from the first/Wast present, and with might wings outspread/Dove-like satst brooding on the vast Abyss/And mad'st it pregnant; What in me is dark/Illumine, what is low raise and support;/That to the highth of this great Argument/I may assert Eternal Providence,?And justify the ways of God to men.

Anybody else see more than a few parallels--the word choice alone should make one wonder, yes? :rolleyes:

Just to get you started:

1. Milton connects the Shepherd to Moses: hmmmmm, Naomi made that connection for us.
2. Milton goes on to evoke Homer: Accorking to Homer's epic poem, when he asks who is was that brought discord among the Greeks and instantly answers that it was ... Apollo. Hmmmm, candy anyone?
3. Milton has Satan's first words recall Aeneas' vision of the ghost of Hector on the night of Troy's fall. Besides Locke/Flocke being, to quote Sawyer, a ghost of Christmas Past, the character of Ilana--her name is connected to Troy, I believe.
4. Milton has Satan deal with the idea of Free Will--"All is not lost; the unconquerable Will,/And study of revenge, immortal hate,/And courage never to submit or yield;/And what is else not to be overcome?" Hmmmm, don't tell me what I can't do!

are ya'll joking!?! I mean "good vs. evil" is THE story of all stories, the ultimate, what could be better than that!?! or more important?That might be true in fiction, but it's also unrealistic. The dualism of good and evil is a dichotomy projected by human perception onto a far more nuanced universe, due to our need to believe we can mold reality to suit our limited ability to understand it. In essence, good vs. evil is only the ultimate (actually, a pair of ultimates) because we want it to be, we require it to be, so we decide that it is.

How's that for a philosophy? :71:

But LOST has shown us over and over again that good and evil are in the eye of the beholder, starting at least with "We're the good guys, Michael."

it ALL boils down to good vs. evil and where that line blurs...That statement contains an internal contradiction, though: is it about good vs. evil, or is it about the blur? Good and evil are the extreme ends of a continuum. Everything actually in existence is in the "blur."

and all good fiction (which has been referenced throughout this text) in every genre and medium is about the same thing... That's not true...not true at all. There's plenty of fine fiction that isn't about a supposed battle between good and evil. Perhaps the best example is the story of Don Quixote. He thinks he represents the forces of good battling evil, but in reality, he's just a madman.

...symbolizes something deeper... and the deepest it goes, for every religion or world view, is the battle of good vs. evil....That's also not true. I could rattle off a list of religions and world views that are not based on the opposition of good and evil. Taoism and Zen, for instance. And even in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim spectrum, there's the grand American tradition of Universalist theology.

Anybody else see more than a few parallelsGreat stuff, there, Pink! The word in your post that really attracted my attention and reminded me of my post above was "parallels." Inherent in parallelism is the idea that parallel lines never intersect. So neither is the source of the other, though they are inherently similar. So the topic of the thread is whether or not Paradise Lost is the "key text." Is it the source of the plot of the show, or does the show just exhibit some parallels? Or is it a contributing source of the show, along with others, rather than being "the key" (for my part, I'll take door number 3, Monty)?

You've sure posted some striking evidence, and taken as a whole, it seems to describe a relationship. But for instance, the mention of the name Apollo in the show doesn't really ascribe a function for the Apollo Bars in the plot. In essence, in what way does an Apollo Bar "bring discord among the Greeks?" Perhaps if Apollo Candy is seen as symbolic of the DHARMA Initiative bringing discord to the island, there's something there.... Not finding any connection between Ilana and Troy (though I'm not expert), but Helen, certainly....

What I'm saying is that it might behoove us to be careful in our thought processes not to impose perceptions and connections in such a way that we cling so fast to them that we believe that they must be there. We can then present enough evidence to convince ourselves and eachother of the truth of our suppositions (anyone wanna talk about the numbers? :lol2:).

Just being the "devil's advocate"... :devil:

:71:

So the topic of the thread is whether or not Paradise Lost is the "key text." Is it the source of the plot of the show, or does the show just exhibit some parallels? Or is it a contributing source of the show, along with others, rather than being "the key" (for my part, I'll take door number 3, Monty)?:71:

Oh, I think it's a given that LOST's story is built around the same structure as PL--Milton makes a gazillion references to various other literary stories that would have been known to his audience, and TPTB have done the same. And Milton wrote an epic story, and that may have been the idea TPTB were going for, too. Heck, Milton even threw in the idea that the Egyptian gods could manifest (try Book 1, lines 420 -430?) plus the idea that Satan could shape-shift (Book4, lines 390? - 410?) and we've got Egyptian gods and a manifesting Smoke Monster in LOST. Somewhere in Book 4 I remember Heavenly Scales, a reference to Zeus measuring the Greeks and Trojans or some other Homer nod. Then there's the whole Free Will verses Destiny idea also in Milton's complete work (PL was only part). And, hello, Adam and Eve are an idea in both. Besides, catching A&E "alone" is a big theme in PL.

So if Milton's work isn't the story of LOST there are more than a few parallels to the story. From just a structural point, one has to give Milton a nod, but thre are also plot elements that deserve a nod as well, IMHO. :rolleyes:

I LOVE Paradise Lost. And I'm sure the writers are very familiar with it. I think we may find that it intersects thematically most especially in free will vs. fate and/or predestination, and maybe in that the bad guy turns out to be somewhat sympathetic and more human than the God-figure, depending on how the rest of this season develops.

I remember the reference to the scales - the libra constellation that appeared in the sky, after Michael's angels had caught Satan whispering into Eve's ear. Satan was about to fight Michael there and his small army, when God made the scales appear in the sky. God was telling Satan here that if he fought, he would die, so Satan decides to leave Eden, only to sneak back in later as a snake. (We must ask ourselves why God is helping Satan along? Is Satan fall so instrumental to God's plan that he was made to fall? That he essentially did not have the choice?) This may/may not be an allusion to Greek mythology by Milton, but I mean all great literary works make allusions, so I don't really see that as being a strong connection between Milton and LOST.

So I think it may be a story that has really influenced LOST, as it has influenced a lot of other works, especially in regards to questions of good and evil and free will vs. fate, but I don't believe it is the key text. I would be surprised if there was a key text to for this show.
100%
And I just realized you were connecting the scales in PL to the scales in Jacob's cave. That's interesting. The scales in PL were a warning and showed Satan with a clear disadvantage. I don't remember what position the scales were in in LOST before smokie removed the white rock - probably balances evenly, I'm guessing.

Free will and choice is what defines us. The Adam and Eve story is a simple one at best to describe the very beginnings, the foundations of what makes us who we are in terms of religion.

Lost parallels a lot of things but 2 very important parts of our mythology were given in the adam and eve scene in the cave and given with 2 very important characters. One part was the Adam and Eve reference, integral in terms of free will and fate and Two was the black and white stones held by Jack with Locke in the background.

The Anagram to shed light on that scene spelt "Time Lost" or "Lost Time" . But that whole episode "House of the rising sun" revolved around time. The mythology references the Sun in heiroglyphics, use of lamps, tapestrys...and if you watch the episode the amount of "time" themes is insane.

Time, Black and White, Adam and Eve, Good and Evil. I just cant wait for the final curtain.

I don't think that Paradise Lost is the key text for Lost, but it clearly is a reference point as is the Bible itself. This week's episode not only reminded me of Paradise Lost, but also reminded me of the temptations of Christ. The MiB attempts to recruit, as Ilana put it, Richard and then Sawyer by offering them something if they join him. Sawyer's offer was to get off of the island and go back home. Satan offered Christ the world, more or less, if He would accept his offer. Power, riches, control- not what Jesus was about. Did anyone besides me notice that in that first shot of the boy in the jungle, the boy had his hands out and they were all bloody? Definitely a crucified Christ image as was Jacob allowing Ben to kill him. I kept thinking that the third day he would raise from the dead. I think we are seeing more and more that Jacob is good and the MiB is evil. Sorry if that's a little off of the Paradise Lost topic, but I think they are related ideas. In Paradise Lost, Satan's idea to get back at God is to tamper with and pervert God's finest creation . . . man. Isn't that exactly what the MiB is trying to do?

So I think it may be a story that has really influenced LOST, as it has influenced a lot of other works, especially in regards to questions of good and evil and free will vs. fate, but I don't believe it is the key text. I would be surprised if there was a key text to for this show.

Agreed, I also don't think that TPTB simply took Paradise Lost and dressed it up in modern clothes for a 21st century audience except in the sense that Milton took his story from another source. Epics always have cultural nods within the structure (Milton uses all sorts of literary nods--wow, you trip over them because they're everywhere) and epics are almost always based on earlier literary works. LOST has done this from the beginning. TPTB have shown a distinct literary bent to their tv writing, so it's not much of a leap to find nods to various other works of literature throughout the show.

Book 9? has Adam comment to Eve something along the lines of "only stay if you do so willingly" which I'm sure we'll see somewhere in this season (or was that Jack and Kate with the bomb and again in The Temple?) since it is so connected to the Free Will v Destiny plot. And Adam blames Eve for the whole Fall business (even going so far as to blame God for creating Eve in the first place, so of course it's all God's fault :rolleyes: ) which I wouldn't be shocked to see show up, too. That is if we haven't gotten the nod already considering the dock scene between Sawyer and Kate: "Why come not Death/Said he ...." and then "Whom thus afflicted when sad Eve beheld,/Desolate where she sat, approaching nigh,/Soft words to his fierce passion she assay'd:/But her with stern regard he thus repell'd. ..." and then "I had persisted happy, had not thy pride/And wand'ring vanity, when least was safe,/Rejected my forewarning, ...." (Book 10, lines 850? - 880?).

Book 10, line 480, also has Satan "[p]rotesting Fate supreme" and we clearly got a scene with Flocke taking on the "Don't tell me what I can't do" attitude as well. And a nod to the idea of Satan being transformed into the snake as punishment may be Ilana's comment about Flocke not being able to transform into any other image.

It's just hilarious how many nods one can find, however. The whole "battle" between the various angels (semi-immortals--even if they don't age and die, they had a beginning point) may be another nod if it turns out to be the Widmore and Ben war we've heard about. And we know that Richard is old but doesn't seem to age. :rolleyes: