I am not looking to antagonize, but figure out what I'm missing. I welcome any and all responses, and look forward to spirited debates. Here goes:

I have watched every single episode of Lost. While considered one of the greatest television shows by many, I've experienced increasingly dwindling enthusiasm since the season 2 finale. You could say I've been, err, lost in a haze of frustration for some time now. I'm sure you've heard this before, but I still feel compelled to state my case and have someone explain what I'm missing. Here are some of my thoughts:

1) Characters:

Lost is a very complex television show, but at the end of the day it's a story about characters. The method and wonderful madness with which the show introduced its characters and their involvement in such unique circumstances, rightfully earned Lost the adjective "ground-breaking." Though the magical island is what initially grabbed our attention, it was the characters that took the show from a science-fiction flash-in-the-pan to a mainstream and culturally relevant story. Based on this fundamental fact, the show's ability to sustain relatable characters is of the utmost importance. While many of the Losties go through familiar life experiences during the flash backwards/forwards/sideways story lines -- triumphs and failures, both extraordinary and mundane -- as the show progressed, these off-island experiences seem to be the only place we can now relate to them. At first, the characters act in a manner that feels, well, human: Where are we? What's going on? Why is #### polar bear over there? But after a few seasons, the Losties' behavior becomes borderline-laughable.

At this point in the series, the characters seem utterly and completely resigned to being thoroughly uninformed. Apparently smoke monsters, polar bears, purple skies, violent indigenous inhabitants, hatches, and miracle cures are all in a day's work. Travel back through time and join the ranks of the Dharma Initiative? They act as if it would be weird not to. Watching Sawyer interact with Flocke, who he even realizes is not the same Locke he once knew and loved/loathed, I could practically see the thought bubble over Sawyer's head, "Whatevs. Just go with the flow man." To add insult to injury, anytime a character gets close to something resembling an answer, or a truth, or even a context for them to process their experiences, their quest for ignorance becomes stronger. It's as if they are allergic to answers. Forget about the audience finding out the answers, don't these poor characters at least give a damn? If Jacob whispered the answers Lost-in-Translation style into their ears, I'd take a great deal of solace in knowing that at least they care enough to know. But they don't. Why? Because they are committed, apparently, to being unrealistic and therefore unlikable. For example, Sawyer has a golden opportunity to demand real answers when he's in the cave with Flocke. Instead it's just another scene of half-baked questions and cryptic responses backed by spooky theme music, which has sadly become Lost's signature. And, somehow, Sawyer is satisfied with this. Actually, his mind is so at ease that joining forces with an entity he doesn't understand (and has taken the form of a dead guy) sounds like a good idea. Go with the flow man.Whatevs.

What happened to the Sawyer I knew and loved? What happened to Dr. Jack Shepherd, a man of reason, a man looking for reason? Remember that, when Jack was the voice of reason? Now, the best we get is him asking "What's in the pill?" "Poison?" "Oh, okay, cool. That's messed up, but cool." The new voice of reason, strangely, is Hurley. Unfortunately, though, his "voice of reason" is played for laughs and is purely rhetorical. He asks the questions I am asking, but he asks them to no one and then tacks on "dude." Hurley is our voice of reason. He also sees dead people. Fantastic.

I was hoping that one of the Losties would break down and plead with Dogen or Lennon, begging them to explain who The Others are and why the island is so important. Just to see this question asked would help Lost make sense. Compare it to The X-Files. The latter definitely kept the viewer in the dark, but Mulder was never comfortable with being uninformed. And his frustration with being uninformed was relatable. At the end of the day, Lost is a show full of questions, many questions, amazing questions at times, but nobody bothers to ask them. Just the audience, apparently alone in our curiosity.

2) Story:

I admit it; I'm an "answer hound." But not by choice. No, not at all. I'm not the kind of guy who bulldozes through the journey to get to the destination. I love the journey. I crave it. The journey is what makes a story work. But the journey has to make sense.

Let's go on a journey together. How about episode 6, "Sundown." FLocke raids the temple. People die. People run for their lives. Something appears to be at stake. The problem is that I have no idea what that something is. I have no idea why FLocke wants to invade the temple, I have no idea why Sayid is helping him (relatedly I have no idea "who" Flocke or Sayid are, because of the whole "they're claimed" thing), I have no idea who these Temple-dwellers are, why they're there, when they got their, if they want to be there, or if I'm supposed to care about anything I am watching. It feels much too much like I'm watching one of those ill-conceived $200 million dollar action movies. One of those over sweetened popcorn flicks that focused way too much on "awesome fight scenes" but forgot to create an actual conflict which would give any meaning to the fight scenes. Watching this we-can't-even-show-you-the-preview fight, I felt as if I had absolutely no more knowledge than someone who had flipped to the show randomly for the first time. Neither the devoted fan nor the channel surfer could explain what the true conflict is between these two opposing groups. That is crazy. (RIP Dogen; we hardly knew ya...seriously).

The above is not the real issue though, it's only a symptom of a much greater illness, that being that the story is sick (not in the slang way). Literally, it's not healthy. For a story to have a pulse, to be alive, to treat the audience to joy, pain, emotion, experience, intrigue, anything, the characters must have goals. That's what made the show great, after all. This was the story of men and women from different walks of life, united for a goal to escape an island. That changed. As the show develops, the story must develop and characters ought to progress. But somewhere along the way, the characters stopped having goals. If they don't have goals, then why am I watching them? We fell in love with Jack because he wanted to save everyone, but now what does he want? We loved to watch the evils and antics of Ben because he was always scheming for something. Now, what does he want? We can go character by character and realize that none of them has either an abstract or tangible goal, neither a short-term or long-term purpose and that's a major problem. We've all heard that great stories and great characters have "depth." Well, I can't seem to find it, this elusive depth. If anything, they seem to be like amorphous blobs, like liquids - simple liquids that take the form of their container and go through the flow of each scene.

Because these characters are no longer real, no longer relatable, and no longer are striving for or against anything whatsoever, how can I do anything other than wonder how the story ends? What was the point of it? I don't want to be an "answer hound," but what choice do I have?

3) The Acting:

No complaints here. The acting on lost is certainly pretty good, might even be some of the best performances on network television. But you know what, the acting performances in "Gigli" were good as well.

4) My favorite show that I never want to see ever again:

I run through my favorite shows in my head -- The Sopranos, Six Feet Under, The Wire, Oz, Seinfeld -- and I remember being almost upset when any one of them came to a close. More Sopranos? Yes please! More Seinfeld? Absolutely. But if you told me Lost would be on for another season, I would give up on the show completely. That's not a good sign.

I agree with everything you say here. Good post and well thought out. I used to be obsessed with Lost before the beginning of Season 6, and now I'm not even excited for the next episode. I know it'll be something pointless and most likely a waste of my time. However I will say that after the series is over I think it'll make a lot more sense to go back and watch all of the episodes again. I think that will be more enjoyable than what I'm watching now.

Well said. I agree particularly about the Characters part. Both Season 5 and this season, it seems like the main characters are walking pieces of cardboard. They might as well be video game characters, engaging in pointless gun battles or fistfights, walking from place to place like they're on King's Quest. Without time devoted to conversation or reflection by the characters, scenes *meant* to be touching, like between Locke/Helen, or Kate/Claire, or Sawyer/Kate by the docks, or Sayid/Nadia - these scenes only feel hollow.

I understand that the writers don't want characters to give answers in exposition. They want to show them to us. If that's the case, they need to make it natural why these characters wouldn't ask anything, or why the "all-knowing" characters don't tell them anything.

Maybe this will all make sense when the finale rolls around, but that doesn't make these last few episodes any less frustrating. It's irritating to watch these characters make mistakes because they don't have the full info... Dogen could have actually told Kate and Sawyer why they needed to stay in the Temple, or about MIB taking on dead people's forms (eg. Richard could have said something to Sawyer); or someone could have actually told Kate about what had happened to Claire (eg. Jack when he learned Kate was looking for her).

And what about having the actors react with a more incredulous expression rather than seeming like they're sleepwalking? Where's the sense of adventure? Where are the heroes who make smart decisions? Every protagonist is following something or other based on faith... Hurley with Jacob, Ben/Sun/Frank with Ilana, Sawyer and Evil Claire/Evil Sayid with Flocke. It's not fun watching people in real life be manipulated, and it's not fun to watch characters I used to love doing the same thing.

I understand that the writers don't want characters to give answers in exposition. They want to show them to us. If that's the case, they need to make it natural why these characters wouldn't ask anything, or why the "all-knowing" characters don't tell them anything.

And what about having the actors react with a more incredulous expression rather than seeming like they're sleepwalking? Where's the sense of adventure? Where are the heroes who make smart decisions? Every protagonist is following something or other based on faith... Hurley with Jacob, Ben/Sun/Frank with Ilana, Sawyer and Evil Claire/Evil Sayid with Flocke. It's not fun watching people in real life be manipulated, and it's not fun to watch characters I used to love doing the same thing.

That's been my one big beef about the show. Un-natural responses and pointless starting into space when a follow-up question should be asked. No one could be that dumb as not to ask after hearing that someone's coming to the Island, "Yeah, who's that?"

It's frustrating having to see favorite characters not express the smallest bit of curiosity or to have a scene end on such a note. Cliffhangers are one thing; not responding in a natural way is another.

I think the biggest problem that people have when they say that the answers aren't coming fast enough, which in your summation of episode 6, you are basically saying (you're seeing action without knowing the cause or result, but it's not something that WON'T be answered, so you feel you should know the motivations beforehand, hence you think the answers aren't coming fast enough) is that while we are 6 weeks into the show, this is only the end of the first day in the story. And the entire crux of the story up to this point was lining up who would be with who and positioning the pieces where they need to be. I think things will begin to heat up tonight.

As for the characters, they've had a pretty tough day. It's not unlikely that they are all still in complete shock. I mean, they've all just had a huge world change, blown up an h-bomb trigger, been in a gunfight, time-traveled, and ended up where they started all the space of 24 hours. Its kind of hard to figure out how anyone would act after all that. As for accepting the weird stuff without question? At the point when the O6 saw the island disappear in front of their eyes, and the non-O6 time jumped around until they landed in 1977, I think they realized that a rational explanation wouldn't be easy to come by. All the people on island were perfectly happy, while the ones off island were miserable. For the most part, they figured the solution to that misery was to return to the island, come what may, and so they have committed themselves to seeing how it all plays out, but Jack is not being inactive like he was in Dharma, he's back in search mode. Hurley is speaking Jacob's will and moving that cause along. Sayid was brought back against his will, and that sure didn't end well. Miles is a go with the flow cat, you'd kind of have to be if you could read the last thoughts of any corpse in the room. Sawyer is ready to punish something, and I'm in agreement with those that think he's joined up with Locke with minimal fuss just to keep your enemies closer, and Kate is likely to go into heat again any minute now that Claire has been located.

I think the writing is great, I just think it's our perspective of how we think a story should be told and how the story is going to be told are two different things. I for one like the new ground lost has broken over its history and I'm onboard, Locke-like, in my belief that this story will end on a grand scale and with much satisfaction all around. And really, you'd think that after 5.333333 seasons of journeying almost every step of the way with these characters, we'd get the message they finally got: go with the flow, let go, and the ANSWERS WILL COME.

well said jimmyjims.


truth is, abc greenlit the most expensive pilot every made. in order for the show to work, it had to have one of the best pilots in the history of tv. JJ and Damon achieved this and it led to some groundbreaking work in season 1.

JJ leaves immediately and Damon and Carlton win an emmy for their work. It's fairly logical that this show is going to be around for a while. Season 2 comes around and they continue their excellent work and introduce Michael Emerson and Henry Ian Cusack to the cast. Two excellent moves.

Then we get into season 3 and you can almost see the production meetings going on.
How long is this going to go on for?
How many plot diversions are we going to be able to take?
We should explain how Jack got his tattoos.
Hurley should spend an entire episode trying to fix a car.

I believe the writers when they said part way through S3 they asked the network to set an enddate.
What also gets forgotten about is that Carlton and Damon both got 8 figure contract extensions for the remaining three years.

So the end date remotivated Carlton and Damon. And the last third of S3 was some of their best work, leading to a finale I could watch over and over again.

Shortly after that, JJ plucked Damon out to cowrite/produce one of the biggest franchise reboots ever in Star Trek.

So Damon has this huge opportunity to branch out into movies.
JJ is completely gone from Lost and has no idea what's going on
and Carlton and Damon both are incredibly rich and have been given every guarantee that the show will get to end on their terms.


At the same time I started to notice:
- the character studies that made this show great started to break down
- we had a lot of people running around back and forth with no real rhyme or reason
- Michael Giaccino's music started to become the biggest character on the show, telling us how to feel with each loud overbearing note
- a million things were going on, with characters asking no logical questions or behaving the way we expected them to.


Now don't get me wrong, every now and then they managed to pull off some greatness. Most of which was in season 4 when it almost seems the end date reinvigorated the cast and crew of the show. The Constant still ranks as probably their best or 2nd best non-finale ep ever. But I notice they only do great work whenever they are under the gun to introduce some major concept that will move the show forward.

In the Constant time shifting became a huge part of the show. They had to sell it to the audience well in order for the last part of the story to be told. And they did. Thus paving the way for season 5. This is pretty much admitted two by Darlton in the S4 commentary of the episode. So when they are motivated, the quality work comes back.

That brings me to s6 - I've come to grips with a few facts:
1. When everything is working, this is the best show on tv
2. When things aren't working, it's still probably in the top 10.
3. If they pull off an amazing final season, it'll be the stuff of legend
4. If they fail, as I'm quite sure they could, I'm still not sorry at devoting 6 years to watching it.

Am I mad that they aren't putting out A+ work every time? Yes.
Am I bothered by the characters sinking down more and more into irrational behaviour? Yes.
Am I frustrated with them introducing new characters without proper explanation this late in the game? Totally.

But the show is still better than 99% of what's out there. So I've learned to accept it. And I hope that pulling off a thrilling series finale is one of the things that motivates Darlton and company to put out that quality work they've so inconsistently shown since season 2.

Im getting the impression that even the people who have been living on this Island prior to our Losties showing up have no idea what's going on either. They've been acting on faith alone...so why would they have any "important" answers?

You can see from Richard's attitude that he really has no clue who or what Jacob is and what he wants from him.

Ben was allowed to do so much harm in the name of Jacob, and he obviously has no clue who Jacob really was.

So sure they could be more inquisitive but it really wouldn't do much good in the long run.

LOST has never been a poorly written show to me!

Jimmyjims makes a good point, and since S3, the show has been spotty, but I think Ikonn really nailed it.

I want to add two things: I've been rewatching S1 over the last month, and it's still great. So I think it will hold up over time. Also, last night's episode, Dr. Linus, was the best since the S3 finale, in my humble Lostgeek opinion. The acting was superb, and it was tightly written, with the kind of parallels the other Sideways-flashes have attempted and missed. So that's an encouragement.

Plus, it's almost over, so I've given up being critical, and I'm happy to once again just be along for the ride.

I've given up being critical, and I'm happy to once again just be along for the ride.

I think we have earned the right to be critical when it's deserved. We've invested a fair amount of time in the show, and we have a right to complain when we see an apparent miscue by the producers. I think feedback is healthy, and necessary. How boring would this forum be if everybody always posted "I just LOVE it ..all the time" and "The best show on TV".

I know it's the best. We don't watch ANY network TV whatsoever, except for Lost. It's the only reason we pay for local HD channels through DirecTV. We wouldn't be doing that if we thought it sucked :biggrin::biggrin: Lost is as good as mainstream TV gets, bar none. I remember watching M*A*S*H, All In The Family and Cheers and thinking those would never be outdone for genius writing. I was wrong ;)

I disagree with the OP's observation about the character's reaction to events on the show. We've had Hurley say "what the heck?!" a bunch of times etc... This is a fictional television show, not a documentary. If they had characters talking to each other about how crazy that thing was that they just saw each episode because that's what we would do, would be incredibly boring.

Well, Hurley and Miles are the only ones who act like normal people. The writers seem to be using them to "represent" the audience, but that's not good enough.

Characters like Jack and Sun were supposed to be intelligent in the earlier seasons (just using these two as an example). But the questions they do ask are so closed-ended and one-off, that it doesn't demonstrate there is any brain activity going on behind their dazed facades. They are probably in shock, yes, but I'd also like to know how they are feeling beneath the surface. Like is Sun thinking about Ji Yeon? Is she trying to formulate a plan to figure out where Jin is? Is Jack worried about Claire? What does he think of Kate trying to find Claire given what he knows from Dogen? What does he know from Dogen about Claire? All it really takes is even one scene in each episode. Look at every conversation that the writers have done with Sun recently... hanging up a tarp with Ben, asking about whether Ilana is feeling alright, musing with Frank - all of it was used for exposition, when it is possible to provide some depth while also giving info to the audience.

Scenes we get rarely dig beneath the surface. Like the one in "Lighthouse" where Jack and Hurley pass Kate while she's drinking water. What exactly was the point? It wasn't an action scene, so it was probably meant to be a character scene. But we did not learn about the emotional mindset of any of those characters. It didn't even establish a functional purpose of telling us why Kate returned to the Temple in "Sundown". It might as well have been a still image.

Scenes we get rarely dig beneath the surface. Like the one in "Lighthouse" where Jack and Hurley pass Kate while she's drinking water. What exactly was the point? It wasn't an action scene, so it was probably meant to be a character scene. But we did not learn about the emotional mindset of any of those characters. It didn't even establish a functional purpose of telling us why Kate returned to the Temple in "Sundown". It might as well have been a still image.

Jack told Kate that the temple dwellers told him that something happened to Claire and she figured that they may know where to find her. Without that scene, the last time Kate is talking about the temple, she said she wasn't going back there so it would make no sense for her to pop in there. I agree the scene isn't good, but it did serve some purpose.

Thorough analysis, but I for one feel that the early episodes had 'cardboard' character development scenes a-plenty. In fact, until they stumbled across the hatch, I really couldn't belive my wife cared about these people at all. now of course, she's on your side and can't wait for it to wrap up while I like this season's character writing as well as any !!

And as for the writing of the 'mystery' plot, I love it when the questions pile on and characters come and go and then - BAM, it's 'Rosebud' going into the fire, credits roll and a lot of things make sense.

An even better example of what I'm expecting is when you find out the astronauts had crash-landed just outside of Vegas or wherever in the classic TZ episode. What some of you 'sidewhiners' (Sideways Whiners ;)) are griping about would be equivalent (IMO) to the writers letting the viewers in on this just before the commercial break instead of just before Rod Serling begins his closing drone.

A lot of the 'big' questions have already been answered, I'm sure. Which one of the existing possibilties (a lot of theories have been eliminated, even to a casual episode-only viewer) that explain Walt's importance - for just one example- probably shouldn't be hard to spell out in the last few hours.

Fantastic thread, and very well-written argument.

I think this part especially deserves highlighting, since it goes towards explaining part of my feeling of immense frustration as a long-time devoted fan:

Watching this we-can't-even-show-you-the-preview fight, I felt as if I had absolutely no more knowledge than someone who had flipped to the show randomly for the first time. Neither the devoted fan nor the channel surfer could explain what the true conflict is between these two opposing groups. That is crazy.

It brings up one of my points, which is, what have these past 5 years I have invested in the show really been good for? I don't think they let me enjoy the final season any more than anyone else, which seems very wrong.

The journey has been great, and maybe it is more important than the destination, but I think the destination should be able to lend even more meaning to the journey, not detract from it.

That's been my one big beef about the show. Un-natural responses and pointless starting into space when a follow-up question should be asked. No one could be that dumb as not to ask after hearing that someone's coming to the Island, "Yeah, who's that?"

It's frustrating having to see favorite characters not express the smallest bit of curiosity or to have a scene end on such a note. Cliffhangers are one thing; not responding in a natural way is another. I can agree with that. For instance, how in God's name could Jack and Hurley see Richard, (especially Jack) and not ask
What the F*** happened when we set off the bomb?

My biggest problem last year as far as unnatural responses was Sayid.
When we saw Sayid at the beginning of the season, he had flipped had severd ties with Ben. I couldn't wait to find out why, like he found something out, something juicy.
The we find out it's simply because he'd finished his task.
What did he expect from Ben, for them to move in together and be The New New Odd Couple. Then Ben tells him to go and kill a guy outside Hurley's hospital, he says no, does it anyway. Once he's sucked back in "protecting" Hugo, and Ben want's him to continue his plan to return to the Island, he threatens to kill him, which once he time travels leads him to his raison d'être to shoot young Ben. Forget that we still don't know why those guys were after them or what the real purpose of Sayid's assainations were.


well said jimmyjims.

truth is, abc greenlit the most expensive pilot every made. ... JJ and Damon achieved this and it led to some groundbreaking work in season 1.

JJ leaves immediately and Damon and Carlton win an emmy for their work. Season 2 comes around and they continue their excellent work and introduce Michael Emerson and Henry Ian Cusack to the cast. Two excellent moves.

Then we get into season 3...
How many plot diversions are we going to be able to take?

... part way through S3 they asked the network to set an enddate.
... Carlton and Damon both got 8 figure contract extensions for the remaining three years.

So the end date remotivated Carlton and Damon. And the last third of S3 was some of their best work, leading to a finale I could watch over and over again.

Shortly after that, JJ plucked Damon out to cowrite/produce one of the biggest franchise reboots ever in Star Trek.

So Damon has this huge opportunity to branch out into movies.
JJ is completely gone from Lost and has no idea what's going on
and Carlton and Damon both are incredibly rich and have been given every guarantee that the show will get to end on their terms.
...
- the character studies that made this show great started to break down
- we had a lot of people running around back and forth with no real rhyme or reason
- Michael Giaccino's music started to become the biggest character on the show, telling us how to feel with each loud overbearing note
- a million things were going on, with characters asking no logical questions or behaving the way we expected them to.

...they managed to pull off some greatness. Most of which was in season 4 when it almost seems the end date reinvigorated the cast and crew of the show. The Constant still ranks as probably their best or 2nd best non-finale ep ever. But I notice they only do great work whenever they are under the gun to introduce some major concept that will move the show forward. ...

...That brings me to s6 - I've come to grips with a few facts:
1. When everything is working, this is the best show on tv
2. When things aren't working, it's still probably in the top 10.
3. If they pull off an amazing final season, it'll be the stuff of legend
4. If they fail, as I'm quite sure they could, I'm still not sorry at devoting 6 years to watching it.

Am I mad that they aren't putting out A+ work every time? Yes.
Am I bothered by the characters sinking down more and more into irrational behaviour? Yes.
Am I frustrated with them introducing new characters without proper explanation this late in the game? Totally.

But the show is still better than 99% of what's out there. So I've learned to accept it. And I hope that pulling off a thrilling series finale is one of the things that motivates Darlton and company to put out that quality work they've so inconsistently shown since season 2.
:hesaid: awesome analysis. I think you really spiked that one, as far as the time management issues, as well as the big bucks factor. Dotting every I and crossing every T is a lot harder when you're busy a beaver working for the Federation and the DI. Plus, buying new houses, and/or redecorating and such can throw your consistency off.

The whole issue about it being better than 99% of other TV is a good point. They've raised our expectations, so now when we're expecting the Ultimate Lost, all our answers revealed, etc. and we get cutesy things like Sayid kills Keamy in the Kitchen , Ethan delivers Claire's baby, Hugo gets Locke a Job.

Dr. Linus was a step up, but the end was a little silly, I mean why not just say, thanks for pointing that out you'll also be writing that letter of recommendation. In any blackmailing tale, the blackmailer always comes back for more, Ben could've referenced something like that, here's a couple options:
BEN
I won't tell the school board for your job,
I won't tell your wife for the letter. [
BEN
Oh, no you will be writing that letter.
I'm taking your job, because of a regrettable choice,
that you already made.
Make the mistake of "killing" Miss Rousseau's future,
and I'll take your life too.

I get that it was to show him making the opposite choice that he made on the Island, but
he already was taking the job for mostly benevolent reasons. The latter above dialogue would also serve as him tapping his adult Island subconscious

It's like David Fincher's Panic Room ; not a bad movie, if anyone else had made it and I saw it on cable or randomly in a theater with no expectations I might've liked it. BUT it was a Fincher film, Seven, Fight Club, The Game the latter two being 2 of my favorite films. Every one of them (Seven least of the three) had a totally "out of left galaxy" ending. Panic Room was just a movie.

RIchard Alpert (the real one) once said something about the reason people have bad LSD trips is the same reason people have bad lives, they go in with expectations and try to force something, when the proper response is to float down the timestream and take it as it comes.

Perhaps we need to visit Beema's fridge.

'sidewhiners' (Sideways Whiners ;)) are griping about would be equivalent (IMO) to the writers letting the viewers in on this just before the commercial break instead of just before Rod Serling begins his closing drone.



Great twilight zone episode and awesome moniker, though I must admit to being a minor one myself.


I think this part especially deserves highlighting, since it goes towards explaining part of my feeling of immense frustration as a long-time devoted fan:

It brings up one of my points, which is, what have these past 5 years I have invested in the show really been good for? I don't think they let me enjoy the final season any more than anyone else, which seems very wrong.
.

Yeah, this is something that got under my skin when the season started and I heard them saying how they were returning to season one style character driven stories.
I for one, (and I do believe it's partially due to starting at the end of S2 at 3 minutes, and then watching all of S1&2 during the hiatus in S3 ) didn't think the first season was the best one, as apparently more than a few do.

The first season was about getting to know the characters, sure, and was dang good, don't get me wrong, but for me; the more mythology the better. By the time S4 and 5 rolled around the off-island stuff was still contributing to the mythology, and for me that's why with the few exceptions last year, (Sayid's lament listed above, or Kate's reason for telling Jack don't ever ask me what happened to Aaron) I feel the show got better and better.

There was a lot of talk in interviews referencing just what you said, that it doesn't matter whether you've been watching the show for years, and that new viewers could join in because you don't need to know the history of the original timeline etc.

I was nearly livid, why in the name of Jacob would an already popular show that doesn't need to be renewed, worry about drawing in new viewers. Sure the network should care($$$) but Darlton certainly doesn't need the dough, those of us who are dedicated should reap some reward.

I have a feeling that tomorrow's episode will be, by far, my favorite episode this season, for all the reasons expressed in this post, or should I say lack there of.


I went back three times, but couldn't find the poster who had said that with other shows, in their last season they would've gladly taken more but they'd quit lost if there were more.

I feel exactly the opposite, though the pacing would be difficult to change, but I feel with only about 420 minutes left, we are bound to miss out on a lot of stories, we'd like to see. The Alvar Hanso Story, Dharma's initial exploration and constrcuction on the Island, the Negotiation of the truce. The Statue Builders, The FDW, scenes from the Orchid when it was in it's glory, WTF with the pearl, Hurleybird, Henry Gale.

So, yeah give me another year.

Longest post ever

Caduceus, with all due respect... THAT dialogue between Dr Linus and the principal WOULD make me hurl over bad writing on Lost.

That said, I've been pushed into the "refuse to complain"-camp (just to balance it out, if nothing else)- but I really, really enjoyed Ikonn's post. And:

That brings me to s6 - I've come to grips with a few facts:
1. When everything is working, this is the best show on tv
2. When things aren't working, it's still probably in the top 10.
3. If they pull off an amazing final season, it'll be the stuff of legend
4. If they fail, as I'm quite sure they could, I'm still not sorry at devoting 6 years to watching it.


YES!

Also, I'm kind of waiting for the end to dig into it, I think. Although there have been a few moments of terrible writing, I'm not sure it's the show or my expectations yet.

I think the biggest problem that people have when they say that the answers aren't coming fast enough, which in your summation of episode 6, you are basically saying (you're seeing action without knowing the cause or result, but it's not something that WON'T be answered, so you feel you should know the motivations beforehand, hence you think the answers aren't coming fast enough) is that while we are 6 weeks into the show, this is only the end of the first day in the story. And the entire crux of the story up to this point was lining up who would be with who and positioning the pieces where they need to be. I think things will begin to heat up tonight.

As for the characters, they've had a pretty tough day. It's not unlikely that they are all still in complete shock. I mean, they've all just had a huge world change, blown up an h-bomb trigger, been in a gunfight, time-traveled, and ended up where they started all the space of 24 hours. Its kind of hard to figure out how anyone would act after all that. As for accepting the weird stuff without question? At the point when the O6 saw the island disappear in front of their eyes, and the non-O6 time jumped around until they landed in 1977, I think they realized that a rational explanation wouldn't be easy to come by. All the people on island were perfectly happy, while the ones off island were miserable. For the most part, they figured the solution to that misery was to return to the island, come what may, and so they have committed themselves to seeing how it all plays out, but Jack is not being inactive like he was in Dharma, he's back in search mode. Hurley is speaking Jacob's will and moving that cause along. Sayid was brought back against his will, and that sure didn't end well. Miles is a go with the flow cat, you'd kind of have to be if you could read the last thoughts of any corpse in the room. Sawyer is ready to punish something, and I'm in agreement with those that think he's joined up with Locke with minimal fuss just to keep your enemies closer, and Kate is likely to go into heat again any minute now that Claire has been located.

I think the writing is great, I just think it's our perspective of how we think a story should be told and how the story is going to be told are two different things. I for one like the new ground lost has broken over its history and I'm onboard, Locke-like, in my belief that this story will end on a grand scale and with much satisfaction all around. And really, you'd think that after 5.333333 seasons of journeying almost every step of the way with these characters, we'd get the message they finally got: go with the flow, let go, and the ANSWERS WILL COME.


A nice post from someone who gets it. To the others, I respect your difference of opinion, but I maintain that being an "answer hound" is taking away from the show for you. It's distracting you, and it's to blame for your lack of enjoyment as the seasons go by.

***mod edit***

I would never say it's overall poorly written. But sometimes the writing has been bad. All scenes in all six seasons can't very well all be stellar, Jack Sawyer.

For instance: Sundown. When Sayid says hello to Nadia and his brother, there's a lot of really blatant plot exposition, and that IS, by definition, poor writing.

Still doesn't make Lost a poorly written show. That scene, however, written by that episode's team, was NOT good.

"Oh hello my dear BROTHER, who is RETURNING FROM ONE OF HIS MANY EXOTIC BUSINESS TRIPS!"
"Hi there, brother, TRANSLATING BUSINESS DOCUMENTS FOR OIL COMPANIES IS HARDLY EXOTIC!"

@OP

There are two types of "answer hounds":

1. People who will only accept an answer that is "official canon" given to them through whatever authority

and,

2. People who use/trust their eyes and their brains to develop perspectives that fit more than not.

The former will be tortured for years to come. The latter will understand the show shortly after it ends.

I keep thinking of the quote that D and C said about making thier mothers proud..

Little D :Mom, someday I will write a TV Show!
Mom :Yes, dear
Little C: and it will be intellegent! With a plot and everything!
Mom : Yes, dear
Little D: And our loyal viewers will have extrodinary debate, and talk to each other...maybe even get to know each other as they THINK!
Mom : oh honeys...time for bed, and don't go filling your heads with that silly nonsense!
Little D and Little C : We'll show her..someday *high fives and putting on thier star wars jammies, dreaming of the future


Ok...Mom would be proud :)

disagree in the most part...
i mean to start with...seriously, consider who runs these forums
you post on these forums because you want the show to be more than a 40 television event in your day
do you think they might draw inspiration from that?
a boiling pot of idears to work with and adapt
they feed on the fact you post on these boards, the idears, the themes
we have helped to shape this show, and you dont like that?

the reason for most of your sorrows as far as i can see....is that realy, you like movies more
you need to see the start middle and end in a resnobly lengthed chain of events
lost isnt that, its for people who want to think about it more than a couple of hours

your going to complain about not knowing the end to a show which is soon comeing to an end?
dont you see thats abit silly
the whole point is the creators knew the lifespan, they had the start middle and end written.
ABC agreed six seasons, they knew there time frame and how they could twist and turn and get more and more people watching
and the people already watching utterly enthralled

the fact you say you will never watch it again says you missed the beat on this........
because i, and i doubt countless others, will enjoy watching it all over again on blu-ray, proboly abit more...as all the pieces will fit

@OP

There are two types of "answer hounds":

1. People who will only accept an answer that is "official canon" given to them through whatever authority

and,

2. People who use/trust their eyes and their brains to develop perspectives that fit more than not.

The former will be tortured for years to come. The latter will understand the show shortly after it ends.


ROFL, 5 posts to your name and you've hit the nail square on the head. Where have you been for the last few seasons? :biggrin:

This is an astute post but you can't say its become a "poorly" written show. For a serial show like this to be successful to the viewer all it really has to achieve is making the viewer want to return next week, to see what happens next. And even though the show just isn't as good as it was in the first season I still want to tune in every week to see what happens. That really is a testament to the quality of writing.

Besides, the writing in season 1/2 wasn't entirely foolproof. Characters still really didn't respond to all the crazy Shit going on all around them and some pretty silly stuff happened. The real difference between S1/2 and later on is in the production values of the show. Seriously, the directing, cinematography and music of the first two seasons simply hasn't been matched in the later seasons and believe it or not that was more important to the show than the writing. The sometimes cheesiness of all three of those aspects in later seasons really reduces the quality of the episode rather than the writing which is still pretty damn good.

@OP

There are two types of "answer hounds":

1. People who will only accept an answer that is "official canon" given to them through whatever authority

and,

2. People who use/trust their eyes and their brains to develop perspectives that fit more than not.

The former will be tortured for years to come. The latter will understand the show shortly after it ends.


I think your breakdown of 'answer hounds' is absolutely correct, but I sometimes get the impression from other posters on this site, that the people who want definitive answers are somehow wrong or that they've missed the point of show.

Why is that?

After 6 years, why would it be unreasonable to want an straight-forward answer rather than an ambiguous one?

I love films that close with ambiguity, but that's because I've only invested 90 minutes in it, after 6 years, I feel a deserve a little more.

I don't want to watch the last episode of the show and have to concede that I can't say for definite that the looney-tunes from Helsinki or Guatemala or wherever, who said that the whole premise of the show was a hallucinatory episode experienced by Vincent brought about by eating a jar of bad mayonnaise, was wrong.

A lot of great stuff in your post jimmyjims.



I am not looking to antagonize, but figure out what I'm missing. I welcome any and all responses, and look forward to spirited debates. Here goes:

I have watched every single episode of Lost. While considered one of the greatest television shows by many, I've experienced increasingly dwindling enthusiasm since the season 2 finale. You could say I've been, err, lost in a haze of frustration for some time now. I'm sure you've heard this before, but I still feel compelled to state my case and have someone explain what I'm missing. Here are some of my thoughts:


The characters were interesting in the beginning because we knew nothing about them. Most of what was interesting was their basic back stories. It was interesting to see what their lives were like before the plane crashed. It was interesting to learn why they were on the plane. They also seemed interesting because the island and their circumstances were mysterious.

But really, how many times were we told that Jack has Daddy issues, Sawyer is a con man, Sayid is haunted by his past because he tortured people, and Kate, well... Kate runs and stuff.


Also, concerning this idea that Lost is one of the greatest TV shows ever... I can't see how anyone can say that without adding "so far". Going in to season 3 of JJ Abrams' Alias, I would have said it was one of the greatest TV shows "so far"... and then I stopped watching going into the last season. Now I would say that Alias was a great TV show but fell apart. I certainly wouldn't suggest it to anyone.

Lost has yet to prove whether is deserves it be to considered "one of the greatest TV shows". Why? They need to wrap up the majority of the plot lines they've created and create some kind of satisfying ending to the mythology. If all they need to do for some people is resolve the characters' stories, then how can they not "succeed"? Obviously, some will be killed off for dramatic effect and some people will be upset no matter who Sawyer/Kate/Jack end up with but how hard is it to give most of these characters satisfying endings?






At first, the characters act in a manner that feels, well, human: Where are we? What's going on? Why is #### polar bear over there? But after a few seasons, the Losties' behavior becomes borderline-laughable.


I disagree that the characters acted rationally early in the series. I think many people overlooked the way the characters behaved because there was a lot of "cool and interesting stuff" going on that distracted them. Also, many fans noticed but tried to explain away their behavior.


Early in the series the characters weren't sharing information, weren't communicating, and weren't organizing and exploring the island. Many fans complained about this early on. Other fans, obviously noticing the characters irrational behavior, said that it would be explained later. Many said they were acting this way because of "the sickness". I heard this over and over. Other explanations were that they didn't know or trust one another or that they were "in shock".


As time went on and the plot progressed, the characters began to get to know each other and bond but still failed to share information, communicate and ask basic common sense questions that people in their situation would. Over time, it become even more obvious the characters were being written to be stupid in order to crow-bar them into contrived scenarios and preserve the mysteries of countless plot lines. The characters don't drive the plots on Lost. The characters are there to be manipulated by Lindelof and Cuse, without regard to motivation or common sense, to set up and awkwardly advance plot lines.







To add insult to injury, anytime a character gets close to something resembling an answer, or a truth, or even a context for them to process their experiences, their quest for ignorance becomes stronger. It's as if they are allergic to answers. Forget about the audience finding out the answers, don't these poor characters at least give a damn? If Jacob whispered the answers Lost-in-Translation style into their ears, I'd take a great deal of solace in knowing that at least they care enough to know. But they don't. Why? Because they are committed, apparently, to being unrealistic and therefore unlikable.



And somehow we're supposed to be rooting for these characters to succeed when they aren't asking questions, sharing info, and doing common sense things to help themselves? We're supposed to care about their situation and circumstances when they don't seem to care? We're supposed to be curious when they often aren't even remotely interested in what's going on? We're supposed to like these people?

Lost is about the characters? Please.





2) Story:

I admit it; I'm an "answer hound." But not by choice. No, not at all. I'm not the kind of guy who bulldozes through the journey to get to the destination. I love the journey. I crave it. The journey is what makes a story work. But the journey has to make sense.


Yes, the journey does have to make sense. It also has to be entertaining. This season they've completely embraced stale TV/movie cliches and cheesey Lifetime Movie/Afterschool Special plot lines. This is ground-breaking TV? What's groundbreaking about Lost is that they've managed to combine mystery, unique storytelling devices, thinly developed characters, and cheesey, cliched plot lines.