Ben and Roger left the island?? [Archive] - { Flicks N Shows | Fringe Division | Red Panda Resources

lostorfound

03-10-2010, 12:45 AM

I agree with the timing - they left well after Jughead. However, something clearly changed Roger's attitude problem. He didn't seem like a weakened abuser to me, but someone who actually loved and valued his son.
As many seem to do after they've almost lost them ....because they were shot by a time traveler from another universe!
But Roger had an attitude problem concerning Ben killing his mom during childbirth well before they. joined Dharma. Wth happened to change that?
Sayid shot him and Roger went crazy, realizing just how much his son meant to him.
I'm in favor of what you stated. It makes sense that Ben and his dad left long before the Purge and of course the Incident..
They were both still on the Island for the Incident. We saw that.
In the LAX time line, the plane never crashed so the losties were never there to time travel back to 1977 to blow jughead.
2004 Original Universe-System Failure at the Swan-815 crashes to Island
2004-Original Universe- Losties are flashed through time and wind up in 1977
1977-The ORIGINAL LOSTIES are TIME TRAVELERS FROM ORIG. UNIVERSE 2004
1977-Losties YOUNGER selves (or not even born yet selves) have never crashed.
1977-ORIGINAL UNIVERSE and ALT. UNIVERSE SPLIT

POST SPLIT 1977-2004- ORIGINAL UNIVERSE- The Losties grow up, Crash, TT to 1977 PRE-INCIDENT, are returned to ORIG. UNIV POST SPLIT -2007, in which they've always crashed in 2004, always TTed to 1977 etc.. WHH.

POST SPLIT 1977-2004- ALTERNATE UNIVERSE - The Losties grow up in a universe where TTer's from ANOTHER UNIVERSE 2004 prevented the Swan from having to be built. In ALT 2004 they don't crash and don't time travel to 1977. They don't have to because THEY never did. Their TTing counterparts from another universe took care of it all....WHH.

Mulder

03-10-2010, 12:45 AM

lostorfound

03-10-2010, 02:07 AM

I am amazed! The moment I heard Roger and Ben talk about life on the Island with Dharma I thought "finally!" For sure this was a nice piece of evidence showing that two parallels had split off from the Incident.....Ben always came to the Island 1973. Yet here we are and the ALT and ORIG being parallel universes is still being doubted.

ORIG: Ben comes to the Island in 1973. Ben gets shot by Sayid the TTer, but survives (WHH) Ben is taken and "saved" by Richard. Ben stays on the Island, grows up there, is part of the Purge, becomes leader of the Others, and watches 815 crash to the Island in 2004. Whatever happened, happened. The ORIG universe is the one we've been watching on screen S1-5 and via FB's.

ALT: Ben comes to the Island in 1973. Ben gets shot by Sayid the TTer, but survives (WHH). Post-Incident, Roger and Ben leave the Island.

It may not be the ONLY thing that makes sense, but it does indeed make sense. Not only that, but it includes everything that's been handed to us. I'm not sure what the problem with two equally real universes is????

No one can change the past. Wasn't that a pretty major message that was repeated over and over again??

KittyKatz

03-10-2010, 02:18 AM

NBC001

03-10-2010, 02:31 AM

lostorfound

03-10-2010, 02:45 AM

I know people have been tossing around the idea that in the sideways universe, the Losties never time traveled to the 1970s... or the 1950s. Them not appearing to Richard and Co in the 1950s changed everything from that point on, therefore (somehow) enabling things like Roger being a totally different person.
Correct, the ALT Losties who landed at LAX never Time Traveled to the 70's. In 1977 they were all thirty years younger than their ORIG counterparts from 2007. Miles was a baby who Chang made leave the Island, Charlotte was a little girl who also left the Island, Dan was a fetus living inside his mother (who had just killed his older, TTing self), Sawyer was a little boy living off the Island, Locke was about 20 living of the Island etc. They were never TTer in 1977, but the Losties from the crash of 815 in ORIG 2007 were.

By the time 2004 comes around for these ALT Losties, their ORIG counterparts have already been to 1977 and prevented the Swan from being built. No Swan, no crash for the ALT Losties.

I think that since the Losties never went back in time, Ben was never shot, and so he was still in the company of Dharma when the Island was evacuated.
The ORIG crashed Losties always went back in time to 1977. They always prevented the Swan from having to be built in the ALT. No Swan in ALT means no crash in ALT. No crash in ALT means no ALTLosties in ORIG Crash Universe. The ALT Losties never go back in time, the ORIG always have.

1. Some other event BEFORE Jughead created the LA timeline.What could that event be?

2. The LA timeline is going to be created by an event that has not yet happened.If an ALT exists where 815 does not crash in 2004, wouldn't it have had to be created beforehand? The ORIG Losties are now on the Island in 2007. Without another round of Time Travel, how can they change 2004?

In the LAX time line, the plane never crashed so the losties were never there to time travel back to 1977 to blow jughead.
The ALT plane with the ALTLosties never crashes. The ALTLosties never TT back to 1977....Because the ORIGLosties already TTed back to 1977from the ORIG CrashUniverse, prevented the Swan from having to be built in the ALT. ORIGLosties =No ALTSwan = No ALTcrash.

I think that one of the consequences of the plane not crashing is that the time travel back in time does not occur
See above

Or that the LA timeline isn't parallel to the original at all, rather the continuation of an already changed past that we're going to see changed.
.You can't change the past.

UnderAlienControl

03-10-2010, 02:55 AM

It might have been the skirmishes that made them leave. Roger didn't like getting shot at so he might have felt it was too dangerous to stay. Especially since he wasn't getting hazard pay.

lostorfound

03-10-2010, 02:56 AM

I am almost sure Roger or Ben said maybe if we had stayed on the Island things would have been different. (or something to that effect) So it seemed like it was their choice to leave the Island and they weren't forced to leave. It would also seem like they didn't know the Island had sunk.
Maybe it was their choice. Apparently a good one since we know the Island is sunk in the ALT from which Ben and Roger are now safely in.

Doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not there are two realities or whether or not two universes branched off from the Incident. It certainly doesn't negate either one.

TheCHIMP

03-10-2010, 02:58 AM

Faraday's S4 Experiment with the incoming Rocket. Time was "off".
Dr. washing up on shore dead...

Did Faraday's rocket and the dead doc cross between different timelines that already existed in Freighter era 2004?

NBC001

03-10-2010, 02:59 AM

Maybe it was their choice. Apparently a good one since we know the Island is sunk in the ALT from which Ben and Roger are now safely in.

Doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not there are two realities or whether or not two universes branched off from the Incident. It certainly doesn't negate either one.
But it also doesn't prove your point of view.

mrain01

03-10-2010, 06:53 AM

elfdream

03-10-2010, 08:03 AM

While its interesting to hear Roger talk about the Dharma days on the island...the island is underwater at this time. Don't you think something like that would be known? I mean unless its still invisible and floating around and magical this sort of thing would have at the very least shown up on the Discover Channel or National Geographic or something.:confused:

lostorfound

03-10-2010, 10:18 AM

I think that the alt-verse goes back pre-1977 because original Locke from the crashed flight 815 went back to the early 1950s and spoke with Richard. If 815 never crashed, the left-behind Losties didn't flash back and forth, they never went to live with Dharma for three years--then Locke didn't meet Richard prior to his own birth. So the alternate time line could easily have begun that far back.
Yes. ORIGLocke who crashed on ORIG815 always crashed, flashed, went to 1954, and met Richard. Do did Juliet, Sawyer, Dan and Miles.

There IS no ORIG815 that never crashed, there is only a ALT815 that never crashed.
ORIG815 always crashed in ORIG2004 and therefore always has.
ALT815 never crashed in ALT 2004 and therefore never will.

ALT815 with ALTLosties does not crash in ALT2004 BECAUSE ORIG815 with ORIGLosties always crashed in ORIG2004. The ORIGLosties prevent the Swan from having to be built in the ALT. That is why the ALT815 does not crash in ALT2004.

But it also doesn't prove your point of view.

But it doesn't disprove it. I have no personal love for the Jughead/Incident/Split theory and won't care less if next week we see some event that is equally as probable to have caused parallel universes. I have no problem seeing that these two "versions" of 815 are part of one single worldline....provided that everything we have been told is first negated and a means of this being true is hinted at.

What bothers me most is that for five and a half seasons a story was set up. This story did not first begin in S5. TPTB wrote episodes, created events, repeated "rules" that reinforced themselves time and again. Now we are 92% through the story and instead of appreciating and believing all that has been carefully set up to lead to this point and theorizing based on what we have......some prefer to disqualify the set up and believe that so and so was really "lying," Dan was really "wrong," the past really "can" be changed. It's a preference to believe what is not there as opposed to accepting and enjoying what is.

Anyone can make a theory "possible" based on what's not there or what might first come to be in the final 8% of the story. Possible does not mean Probable. IMO it is more "probable" that the 92% we've already seen is actually the story.

Damon: Just a quick sort of side note in terms of the way that we deal with time travel on the show - we are very paradox averse; that is to say, when our characters are time traveling, nothing that they do can change the present or the future that you have seen. Which is different than you know, the conventional Back to the Future time travel story telling.
(http://forum.thefuselage.com/wiki/Damon_Lindelof)Carlton Cuse: For us, what we don't want is for the audience to not be invested in the flash-forwards. When you see that, it would be pretty meaningless if they were a changeable reality-
(http://forum.thefuselage.com/wiki/Damon_Lindelof)Damon : Well, as far as time travel goes.
(http://forum.thefuselage.com/wiki/Damon_Lindelof)Carlton : As far as time travel goes, yes.
(http://forum.thefuselage.com/wiki/Damon_Lindelof)Damon : As far as time travel goes, definitely not changeable.
(http://forum.thefuselage.com/wiki/Damon_Lindelof)Damon : Right. That stuff is all really cool, I mean, the Heroes - case in point for all those who watch both shows, we certainly do and are big fans of Heroes - but if Hiro moves back to the past and says "There's a catastrophe that's gonna happen unless you guys save the cheerleader," if they do save the cheerleader, then theoretically future Hiro never exists to come back and warn them. But you know, that's paradox.
(http://forum.thefuselage.com/wiki/Damon_Lindelof)Damon : Yeah, and Ms. Hawking basically explained those rules in the first episode,Flashes Before Your Eyes where she basically said that the universe has a way of course correcting, so even if you did something in the past that you didn't do before, somehow the sort of fabric of time like swoops in around you and fixes everything so things don't go off the rails.
(http://forum.thefuselage.com/wiki/Damon_Lindelof)

Can't change the past. Can't go back to the past and change the future. Whatever happened, happened. The universe has a way a course correcting should a change to the past be attempted.
All valid points in physics recognized by theories like Novikov's Self-Consistency Theory and Hawking's Chronology Protection Conjecture.

Then we move onto Parallels, Alternates, Multiverses. Different worlds branching off from a common quantum event where more than one outcome is possible. Bell's Theorum, Schrodinger's cat, Everett's MWI, Copenhagen etc.

It's all in what we've already seen, it's what TPTB confirm, and it's cross referenced in physics. When I see or hear elsewise, I'll consider that too.
While its interesting to hear Roger talk about the Dharma days on the island...the island is underwater at this time. Don't you think something like that would be known?

Not to anyone who wasn't there to witness it. The Island is not a point on the map. The media does not know about it. The outside world does not know about it. They never have.

MichaelTheAngel

03-10-2010, 11:59 AM

I agree with lostorfound

Though, in my opinion, the only other 'event' that could have created the new universe (Universe B) was the time travel itself. That is, the losties time travelling created a Universe B from the first flash, including the 50s travel (since that included interacting with other people). If that is the case, then some of the flashbacks (e.g. Richards visiting kid Locke after older Locke visited him in the 50s) might be from Universe B, but otherwise all we know about Universe B is what we've seen in the sideways this season.

Since Richard in Universe A said that he visited Locke and he didn't seem particularly special, it seems detonating Jughead in 1977 was THE 'change'.

lostorfound

03-10-2010, 12:28 PM

I agree with lostorfound. Though, in my opinion, the only other 'event' that could have created the new universe (Universe B) was the time travel itself. That is, the losties time travelling created a Universe B from the first flash, including the 50s travel (since that included interacting with other people). If that is the case, then some of the flashbacks (e.g. Richards visiting kid Locke after older Locke visited him in the 50s) might be from Universe B, but otherwise all we know about Universe B is what we've seen in the sideways this season.
I think I see what you're saying. That's kind of one of problems that a 1977 split takes care of. Any scene, flashback, TT that happened before the split in 1977 would exist in A and B.

ORIG Locke meets Richard in 1954. Richard visits Locke at birth in 1956, again in 1961, and invites him to Mitelos camp in 1972. All happened before the split so we can assume that even though it was ORIGLocke who TTed to 1954, ALTLocke's history AND ORIGLocke's history include Richard's 1956, 1961 and 1972 visits.

redpepper

03-10-2010, 02:08 PM

somebody already posted this in the thread, but no one responded to it, and I think it's really important.

For those of you saying that Ben and Roger left the island because of the children and women evacuation prior to/during the incident, how could Ben have made it to the sub? We don't know the exact timing, but we know that Richard took Ben to the temple to heal him or whatever. Meanwhile Roger is in the DHARMA camp shooting Sayid. So if the temple did in fact heal Ben, how likely is it that he would be returned safe and sound to the DHARMA camp and Roger in the short time between him entering the temple and the incident occurring?

This makes me think that they left after the incident for sure. Why did they leave? Who knows, but they definitely left after the incident.

7heSleeplessDreamer

03-10-2010, 02:46 PM

This makes me think that they left after the incident for sure. Why did they leave? Who knows, but they definitely left after the incident.

If they did in fact leave the island after the incident, I can't imagine a better reason. If a nuclear explosion killed everyone in MY neighborhood and I somehow managed to survive, I'd probably start looking for a new neighborhood. One that's far, far away where everyone isn't DEAD.

I'm sure they could have stayed and just waited it out until the next Dharma sub showed up figure out what the he%% happened and who's left... but having just survived something that traumatic I doubt Roger would have chosen that alternative for himself or for Ben.

You could argue that Roger never gave a crap about Ben's well-being, but that's not true. We don't know what changes may have occurred in their lives before the incident as a result of the timelines splitting... in the alternate reality, Roger may have been just as drunk and crappy a father as he was in Dud-World. Roger seemed to genuinely hate Ben and even blame him for his mother's death as a child. We know better than that, though. Despite everything, somewhere deep down inside Roger did care for Ben or he never would have shot Sayid for shooting and potentially killing Ben in the first place.

elfdream

03-10-2010, 02:54 PM

Not to anyone who wasn't there to witness it. The Island is not a point on the map. The media does not know about it. The outside world does not know about it. They never have.

But in the alt timeline the characters are different. Same problems, different outlooks on life, different dispositions, different priorities. There is apparently no Jacob meddling with their lives. Why are we to assume that the island is the same? This time around, if there is no Jacob,it may well be really just an island with a place on the map.

lostorfound

03-10-2010, 03:23 PM

But in the alt timeline the characters are different. Same problems, different outlooks on life, different dispositions, different priorities. There is apparently no Jacob meddling with their lives. Why are we to assume that the island is the same? This time around, if there is no Jacob,it may well be really just an island with a place on the map.
Roger confirmed that the Dharma Initiative had been there. That's reason enough to keep it secret.

NBC001

03-10-2010, 05:05 PM

As many seem to do after they've almost lost them ....because they were shot by a time traveler from another universe!

Sayid shot him and Roger went crazy, realizing just how much his son meant to him.

They were both still on the Island for the Incident. We saw that.

2004 Original Universe-System Failure at the Swan-815 crashes to Island
2004-Original Universe- Losties are flashed through time and wind up in 1977
1977-The ORIGINAL LOSTIES are TIME TRAVELERS FROM ORIG. UNIVERSE 2004
1977-Losties YOUNGER selves (or not even born yet selves) have never crashed.
1977-ORIGINAL UNIVERSE and ALT. UNIVERSE SPLIT

POST SPLIT 1977-2004- ORIGINAL UNIVERSE- The Losties grow up, Crash, TT to 1977 PRE-INCIDENT, are returned to ORIG. UNIV POST SPLIT -2007, in which they've always crashed in 2004, always TTed to 1977 etc.. WHH.

POST SPLIT 1977-2004- ALTERNATE UNIVERSE - The Losties grow up in a universe where TTer's from ANOTHER UNIVERSE 2004 prevented the Swan from having to be built. In ALT 2004 they don't crash and don't time travel to 1977. They don't have to because THEY never did. Their TTing counterparts from another universe took care of it all....WHH.
I would like to say that this is your theory and has not been proven as fact and your posts should state that this your theory because not every one believes your theory is the only way things have happened.

Fierro

03-10-2010, 05:40 PM

But in the alt timeline the characters are different. Same problems, different outlooks on life, different dispositions, different priorities. There is apparently no Jacob meddling with their lives. Why are we to assume that the island is the same? This time around, if there is no Jacob,it may well be really just an island with a place on the map.

Dharma still found the island because it was special and they thought they could still exploit it.I think the island is special regardless of Jacob and MiB.

lundi

03-10-2010, 06:46 PM

Fierro

03-10-2010, 06:48 PM

BoogaFrito

03-10-2010, 06:50 PM

I mean I have always had this idea that it could have rippled backwards and forwards... That is the only reasonable explanation I can think of. If it can ripple forward...SURELY it can ripple back...I don't think it makes sense that setting off the bomb in 1977 would retroactively change the past in another universe (though this wouldn't be the first time TPTB made no sense). Either there was a split caused by the bomb going off, where they share the same past (as lostorfound is arguing here), or there is an entirely different timeline (parallel universe) altogether that has nothing to do with the Incident.

ORIG: Ben comes to the Island in 1973. Ben gets shot by Sayid the TTer, but survives (WHH) [...] The ORIG universe is the one we've been watching on screen S1-5 and via FB's.

ALT: Ben comes to the Island in 1973. Ben gets shot by Sayid the TTer, but survives (WHH). Post-Incident, Roger and Ben leave the Island.

It may not be the ONLY thing that makes sense, but it does indeed make sense. Not only that, but it includes everything that's been handed to us. I'm not sure what the problem with two equally real universes is????The only problem I see is Roger waxing nostalgic about his island days. Are these the days he was an unhappy janitor and his kid was shot by island natives?

NBC001

03-10-2010, 07:08 PM

Everyone is presuming that the Dharma Initiative in the Sideways world, was on the island. Maybe it was at the University, or somewhere else.
In the Sideways world Jack has a son.. that wasn't the case in any other world to date
"Dr. Linus"
ROGER: This isn't the life I wanted for you, Ben. I wanted so much more.
BEN: I know.
ROGER: That's why I signed up for that damn Dharma Initiative and took you to the island, and... they were decent people. Smarter than I'll ever be. Imagine how different our lives would have been if we'd stayed.
BEN: Yes, we'd have both lived happily ever after...
ROGER: No, I'm serious, Ben! Who knows what you would have become?

Cardielost

03-10-2010, 07:10 PM

The ripples into the past are not a literal changing of the past in the same universe but the creation of a parallel universe whose main difference from the original is that no 815er ever set foot on the island and so nothing they did in the original ever happened there.

I'd feel better if in fact it were just a parallel universe or a reset altogether but tptb seem to be saying that the Jughead explosion was the triggering mechanism.

Cardie

lundi

03-10-2010, 07:57 PM

Lundi, we saw the ruins of Dharma underwater...
You're right.. my mind is spaghetti.. and I also replayed that scene and Roger clearly states 'the island'... so pretend I'm not here. sorry.

UnderAlienControl

03-10-2010, 08:44 PM

On the Alt-island they may have not even had to deal with The Incident, which we know happened when Dharma drilled into the core of the EM well, thus precipitating the building of The Swan to discharge the magnetic build-up. So I'm not sure The Incident has any relevence to alt Ben/Dad. Good thing they split though. Unless Roger was aspiring for Ben to be Aquaman.

However, we do know that there was a hella incident in the alt, as the island is submerged. It just doesn't prove it was or had any relationship to The Incident which happened in the original timeline and is canon for that timeline. After all, the crater is still there on the island where the hatch used to be...The island that is still existing in 2007 in the original timeline...

I think my question is: Is the island an alt(ered) in itself. Did changes happen to the 2007 island from the '77 stuff to where now the Lighthouse exists on the island but the Losties never saw it when they were there before? Because it wasn't there the first time around? :alien:

Enchanter

03-10-2010, 08:54 PM

Whatever happened, happened.

The timeline we know is of one fabric. The 77 losties time-travelled and created the incident, which prevented Dharma from drilling too far into the exotic matter and saved the island. Then DI built the Swan to regulate the magnetic energy release, which crashed Flight 815, so the the Losties to time travel. It's a single self-consistent loop.

The flash-sideways are something different. They aren't an alternative timeline, because Darlton has repeatedly insisted that that's not it. And its differences probably don't branch from a single point for everyone but differs as a cumulative "path not taken" for many people.

I think what could make the most difference is if Ben's mother hadn't died in childbirth. If she had lived, then Roger wouldn't blame Ben for her death, Roger would have met Horace is a more positive circumstance. With a good attitude he may have been assigned to something more prestigious than Workman. Ben wouldn't have seen his dead mother and been attracted to the Others. A very different outcome, but not one dependent on the Incident in any way. Remember that Ben told Jack that his mother taught him to read. He wishes! Literally!

RULost

03-10-2010, 09:40 PM

I am completely open to there being an alternate past in the other timeline...I just think with what i have been presented with the timeline split seemed to have happened because of Jughead. I was thinking about how Roger shot Sayid and said that you shot my son etc... He sure seemed pretty protective...

On another note I was thrilled that they mentioned the island like lostorfound I thought finally something that link the two

NathanielStarr

03-10-2010, 09:53 PM

To me it makes sense that since they never came to the island in the first place they never travelled back and never set the events into motion that caused everything we've seen on the show. The island sinking only had to do with the energy they tapped into at the Swan and they never set off the bomb. The bomb created the timeline we've been watching on the show not the timeline in the flash sideways.

Futura

03-10-2010, 10:17 PM

Roger seemed to speak of the time on the island in a positive manner. That seems to tell me that Sayid, along with the rest, were not there in that 1977. I doubt he would be so positive about the island time if little Ben had been shot. So, if that is true, the shift in timelines happened before that. :confused: Just a thought.

Good point! I was just thinking that same thing. When Roger and young Ben were on the island it had to have been before Sayid shot young Ben.

I think the alternate timeline as you've called it was always existing and may not have been caused by the "incident" at all. We just weren't shown that parallel universe until after the incident in the LA X episode.

rjst

03-10-2010, 10:44 PM

Jughead was neutralized in 1954 by Faraday in the original timeline. If flight 815 didn't crash, the chain of events resulting in the island getting unstuck in time and sending him back to 1954 would not occur. Unless Faraday time travels back in time in some other fashion, that bomb could be leaking radiation.

Futura

03-10-2010, 10:58 PM

Lundi, we saw the ruins of Dharma underwater...

Just a little...very significant... point there. ;)

I haven't rewatched "Dr. Linus" yet, but didn't Roger say the word island?

NBC001

03-10-2010, 11:18 PM

Just a little...very significant... point there. ;)

I haven't rewatched "Dr. Linus" yet, but didn't Roger say the word island?
"Dr. Linus"
ROGER: This isn't the life I wanted for you, Ben. I wanted so much more.
BEN: I know.
ROGER: That's why I signed up for that damn Dharma Initiative and took you to the island,and... they were decent people. Smarter than I'll ever be. Imagine how different our lives would have been if we'd stayed.
BEN: Yes, we'd have both lived happily ever after...
ROGER: No, I'm serious, Ben! Who knows what you would have become?

Futura

03-11-2010, 12:00 AM

"Dr. Linus"

Thanks! I found it paradoxical that in the Flash Sideways, Ben was replacing his father's oxygen tank and on the island Ben killed his father with a can of poisonous gas.

lostorfound

03-11-2010, 12:38 AM

I would like to say that this is your theory and has not been proven as fact and your posts should state that this your theory because not every one believes your theory is the only way things have happened.
I will be more careful to put IMO to the things that are. For the most part, I have used the the split as a way of answering other posts questioning how ORIGLosties could have TTed to the Island's 1977 if ALT815 doesn't crash to the Island. So far, I have not seen other posts that provide answers.

Many of my opinions throughout the Fuselage have had holes (or wound up making little sense at all) which others pointed out. I'm always appreciative of that as it stops me from spinning in the wrong direction and back on track with more probable answers. As I said:

I have no personal love for the Jughead/Incident/Split theory and won't care less if next week we see some event that is equally as probable to have caused parallel universes.
Corrected O.P
Originally Posted by lostorfound
2004 Original Universe-System Failure at the Swan-815 crashes to Island-
2004-Original Universe- Losties are flashed through time and wind up in 1977
1977-The ORIGINAL LOSTIES are TIME TRAVELERS FROM ORIG. UNIVERSE 2004
1977-Losties YOUNGER selves (or not even born yet selves) have never crashed.
1977-[ORIGINAL UNIVERSE and ALT. UNIVERSE SPLIT] IMO --

POST SPLIT 1977-2004- ORIGINAL UNIVERSE- The Losties grow up, Crash, TT to 1977 PRE-INCIDENT, are returned to ORIG. UNIV POST SPLIT -2007, in which they've always crashed in 2004, always TTed to 1977 etc.. WHH.

Either there was a split caused by the bomb going off, where they share the same past (as lostorfound is arguing here), or there is an entirely different timeline (parallel universe) altogether that has nothing to do with the Incident.
My main problem with the later is it introduces a completely unknown history. The further back the parallel went, the less we know and the more that would need to be filled in during the few remaining episodes.

If the Incident caused the split, we get to keep all the Island history we have up until 1977. We would also know that somewhere between 1977 and 2004 the Island sank. As for the ALT character, namely Ben since this is a Ben thread, we would be able to fill in the blanks without more episodes needed to show completly different beginnings for him. We would know Ben's back story with his Mom dying, how he and his father came to the Island, how he had met Time Travelers like LeFleur, Juliet, and the man who shot him. We would know exactly when this ALTBen skipped off on a different path that lead to such a different life.

I think the alternate timeline as you've called it was always existing and may not have been caused by the "incident" at all. We just weren't thown that parallel universe until after the incident in the LA X episode.
TPTB could of course make up any story they wish and attach random wording labels to anything they want. From what I've seen so far, their labels and wording have been right on with how they are most commonly used both in sci-fi and physics. The plots usually are too.

The correct quantum mechanical definition of parallel universes is "universes that are separated from each other by a single quantum event." ....The concept of "sidewise" time travel, a term taken from Murray Leinster's " Sidewise in Time," is often used to allow characters to pass through many different alternate histories, all descendant from some common branch point. There is even a Sidewise Award for Alternate History, which recognizes the best alternate history stories and novels of the year.

So if they are saying "sideways" they should be referring to two universes that branched off from the same event. "Should be" is of course different then "are", but I do think they are using the term to express this thought.

.

BlitzwingGibbon

03-11-2010, 11:21 AM

Thanks! I found it paradoxical that in the Flash Sideways, Ben was replacing his father's oxygen tank and on the island Ben killed his father with a can of poisonous gas.
Yeh it made me laugh when I realised that. The makeup on Roger was great, didn't recognise him at first.
The Flash sideways seem to be about the characters doing similar things but for better reasons.

LnGrrrR

03-11-2010, 11:50 AM

Interesting that Roger specifically mentioned the island, but now it's underwater. So it must have happened recently. (Unless it's all a ruse and they're talking about some other island... doubtful though.)

Do AltRoger and AltBen know the island is underwater?

Morrick

03-11-2010, 12:15 PM

Great exegesis, lostorfound!

The revelation that Roger and Ben did actually stay on the island (by the way, it's funny that after everything that's passed and the importance of that place, it still remains "the island", without even a name!) made my head spin because I started thinking about a dozen implications of this. Randomly:

- ALT-Ben might or might not have been shot when he was a kid. It doesn't really matter, I think, but I tend to believe he didn't become an Other and he wasn't cured at the temple. So, in my view, either he wasn't shot, or he was but was saved by the Dharma Initiative.

- ALT-Ben left the island with his father: this alone might strongly suggest that there was no purge. Or if there was, it was not orchestrated by Ben, or it happened differently. The impression I had from their brief dialogue about the island experience is that Ben never became an Other in the first place.

- If Ben never became an Other, think about the things that did not happen in the ALT-Timeline on the island as a consequence of this. If you think about all that ORIG-Ben did in the ORIG-Timeline since Season 2, I'm really wondering how the story proceeded in the ALT-Timeline island. Who knows, in all this role-reversal that's happening in the 2 Timelines, perhaps it was Widmore the leader of the Others in the ALT-Timeline island, perhaps Widmore never left while Ben did, etc.

Damn, look at what 40 seconds of dialogue in an innocent scene do to speculation! Heh.

Cheers
Rick

lostorfound

03-11-2010, 12:36 PM

To me it makes sense that since they never came to the island in the first place they never travelled back and never set the events into motion that caused everything we've seen on the show. So "everything we've seen on the show" is wiped out?

Jughead was neutralized in 1954 by Faraday in the original timeline. If flight 815 didn't crash, the chain of events resulting in the island getting unstuck in time and sending him back to 1954 would not occur. Unless Faraday time travels back in time in some other fashion, that bomb could be leaking radiation.Unless the split occured after 1954. If it did then ORIG TTing Faraday from 2004 already have stopped the leak for both the ALT and ORIG.

Great exegesis, lostorfound!
- ALT-Ben might or might not have been shot when he was a kid.
- ALT-Ben left the island with his father: this alone might strongly suggest that there was no purge.
- If Ben never became an Other, think about the things that did not happen in the ALT-Timeline on the island as a consequence of this.
Cool implications as well as connections. I posted this elsewhere regarding the implications of having the split occur after the Incident:
I agree 100%. Staying on that track would mean that everyone who is alive on or off the Island remains alive in both halves of the split. ALTBen/ORIGBen, ALTIsland/ORIGIsland , ALT2004/ORIG2004 Everyone except the Time Travelers because they came from ORIG2007 and are immediately returned there.

So now, Ben's mother died in childbirth, Roger became a miserable man who blamed the world (especially his son) for his miserable life. The two come to the Island in 1973. Hating Roger and his life with the D.I, young Ben becomes fascinated with the Others and sees them as he way out of Dharma life and an escape from his father.

Because of this fascination with the Others, Ben wants to befriend Sayid who is presumed to be an Other and is being held prisoner. This ultimately leads to Sayid trying to kill Ben in 1977, but Ben survives because WHH. The Incident occurs:

ORIGBen becomes an Other. Roger who had a 50/50 chance of changing his tune in light of almost losing his son, remains an SOB and is killed by Ben. Ben becomes the Leader, Flight 815 crashes to the Island.

ALTBen is reunited with Roger after being saved by Richard. After almost losing his son, Roger becomes a better father. Roger and Ben leave the Island before it sinks. Ben becomes a teacher, Flight 815 never crashes.
.

The LockeNess Monster

03-11-2010, 12:40 PM

- If Ben never became an Other, think about the things that did not happen in the ALT-Timeline on the island as a consequence of this. If you think about all that ORIG-Ben did in the ORIG-Timeline since Season 2, I'm really wondering how the story proceeded in the ALT-Timeline island. Who knows, in all this role-reversal that's happening in the 2 Timelines, perhaps it was Widmore the leader of the Others in the ALT-Timeline island, perhaps Widmore never left while Ben did, etc.

Depends on when the island sank. If the Linus's left the place in fear of the Incident, then there prob wasn't much time for anyone to be anything other than dead.

Avius

03-11-2010, 12:43 PM

What freaks me out is that there might be people walking around in the alternate who remember these Lostie time-travelers coming to the island. And if they ran into one, that Lostie will not have aged but the ex-Island person would have. And the Lostie wouldn't know what they were talking about. As in when Desmond saw Charlie back in England.

If the split occurred as far back as '54, there's a good chance Widmore, Alpert and Hawking are in the parallel and would remember the Day They Came. If the split occurred in '77, that's even more people who could have potentially gotten off the island and would remember the Losties from so long ago. I want to know if Roger saw Jack or Kate or Sawyer in the Parallel, would he remember them, or at least a version of them?

The LockeNess Monster

03-11-2010, 12:49 PM

hatchboy

03-11-2010, 12:57 PM

I think that one of the consequences of the plane not crashing is that the time travel back in time does not occur, which would include the neutralizing of Jughead. So maybe in the altiverse Jughead becomes a problem and forces evacuation. Not sure why the island is underwater though.

All these theories seem fine until you acknowledge that Richard in 2008 (current on-island time) said to Sun that he saw all her friends die.

We don't know. That's the answer for now. :)

kittycraft

03-11-2010, 12:58 PM

I think the alternate timeline as you've called it was always existing and may not have been caused by the "incident" at all. We just weren't shown that parallel universe until after the incident in the LA X episode.

This is just what I've been thinking. Did anyone ever watch Sliders? There were millions of alternate timelines. I think we're just seeing pieces of different timelines that have always been there. Maybe the only "constant" in all the timelines is the island itself, with access to each of them somehow.

Now I just have to figure out how that ties into the rest of the story...lol.

lostorfound

03-11-2010, 01:03 PM

What freaks me out is that there might be people walking around in the alternate who remember these Lostie time-travelers coming to the island. And if they ran into one, that Lostie will not have aged but the ex-Island person would have. And the Lostie wouldn't know what they were talking about. As in when Desmond saw Charlie back in England. ....I want to know if Roger saw Jack or Kate or Sawyer in the Parallel, would he remember them, or at least a version of them?
It would be cool to see this happen between at least two ALT characters. Ben and Sayid would be a good one!

Since I'm suspecting CTT is actually TT to the ALT, I agree this is what could have happened with Carlie and Des.

Sorry if this is too OT, but we know that Widmore is on his way to the Island. What would happen if he is alive and well in the ALT too. What about Eloise Hawking giving birth to a son she had already met in 1954 and killed in 1977???!!!

Lost_in_CA

03-11-2010, 01:45 PM

This doesn't make sense......Ben was recuperating from being shot by Sayid. Ben certainly hadn't come back yet. And why would Roger leave without him?

To me this means one thing......Jughead did NOT create the LA timeline. There are a couple possiblities......

1. Some other event BEFORE Jughead created the LA timeline.

2. The LA timeline is going to be created by an event that has not yet happened.

I'm onboard with #2 and have been since the premiere. And I believe all the changes we're seeing in our Losties and others is a major clue that something huge is still to come. Also, we've seen de ja vu moments that support a future event creating the FS.

I am amazed! The moment I heard Roger and Ben talk about life on the Island with Dharma I thought "finally!" For sure this was a nice piece of evidence showing that two parallels had split off from the Incident.....Ben always came to the Island 1973. Yet here we are and the ALT and ORIG being parallel universes is still being doubted.

No one can change the past. Wasn't that a pretty major message that was repeated over and over again??

Dan said the past couldn't be changed, then came back after 3 yrs. in Ann Arbor and explained the concept of the variable, which he believed could change things. The bomb was the variable but it didn't go off. But that doesn't preclude another variable "event" still to come.

And my reason for not believing in alt. or parallel unis is this:

Podcast - 2/21/10 - audio

Question from viewer Derek asking which reality Damon and CArlton would choose to live in - island 2007 or L.A. 2004
Damon: Uh, that’s a great question, Derek, and I think, um, personally speaking I would pick the island. The island’s just a little bit more exciting. But once again, Derek, I must point out you can not treat these two things as entirely separate entities. You know, we are not, they are not alternate timelines.

Podcast - 2/3/10 - audio

Flash-sideways
Damon: So the operative question seems to be, you know, what are the flash-sideways? Um, what do these things mean? What is their relationship to the island? Are you guys doing two different shows this year? Is it sliding doors? Carlton, will you definitively now answer, please, the mystery of the flash-sideways? We can’t, it’s unfair to make people wait another week to find out any more.

Carlton: That is true. Ok, so, we have two distinct timelines, that are, that we are showing you on the show. One timeline seems to be derived from a theory that when the bomb went off exactly what Faraday was postulating occurred. There was a reset and basically 815 flew over what was once the island, landed in L.A., and these people never experienced the crash, never met each other by crashing on the plane and there’s a timeline going forward.

The other timeline, obviously, is on the island. Juliet hit the bomb, it basically jumped them, you know, forward in time, but they’re still stuck on the island, and they’re dealing with the consequences of the fact that they’re still marooned there.

Now, Damon, would you explain to me, because I’m confused, there were certain things that went on the plane that were different than what I remember from the pilot. I mean, for instance, I don’t remember Desmond on the plane, there was like a Shannon and Boone issue, so what am I to make of the fact that, basically, the narrative in these so called flash-sideways seems to be different than the narrative in the flashbacks.

Damon: Right, this is an excellent question, Carlton, so and, and just one clarification, I think a lot of people are referring to these things as an alternate timelines. And we are, we want to go out of our way to basically not use that word. We’re not interested in alternate anything - alternate realities, alternate timelines.

Carlton: Or the word bizarro associated with the show in any fashion. (laughs)

Damon: Exactly. To basically imply that one of these timelines, that either the island or off the island, is less than real is, is just borderline offensive to me, Carlton. They are both equally real, and hopefully will reconcile in some way. That being said . . .
Carlton: I hope they reconcile. I mean, I would be very disappointed to go through the end of this season and not understand what the interrelation between these two timelines is.

Damon: I wouldn’t blame you. That being said . . .

Carlton: So explain to me, what exactly are these differences?

Damon: So here’s the thing, Faraday basically said if you blow up this bomb the hatch never gets built, of the hatch never gets built Desmond never forgets to push the button, and if Desmond never forgets to push the button then there’s not an electro magnetic event that crashes 815. What he doesn’t take into account is that as a result of detonating a nuclear device in 1977 that might create some other changes in peoples’ lives. If you step on a butterfly and there are like massive changes, imagine what would happen if you were to detonate a nuclear bomb, on top of a butterfly.

Carlton: Is that possibly why the island is underwater?

Damon: I think that is probably the most pervasive theory right now. And perhaps one we’ll be addressing later in the show. But more importantly, Desmond. Desmond’s on the plane, so this is our first indication that things are different. Jack seems to recognize him. Does he recognize him because they were, they met in the stadium together? Well, would Desmond have been at the stadium if he wasn’t training for a race around the world? Like, you know, so would he have been training for a race around the world if the island had never existed? What happened to Charles Widmore in 1977?

So all these great questions are basically being raised but more importantly, how does it affect our characters? And so, anything goes. So when Locke says, hey, I was on a walkabout, you start to wonder was he? Well, no, he seems to be lying. (Carlton says “he was lying” at the same time). But when Sun says no English, was she lying, Carlton?

Carlton: I don’t know. I’m gonna have to wait and see.

Damon: So everything is up in the air. And all we can say is this - you think that not that many things have changed but a lot more things have changed than you probably think. And that’s going to be the exploration of the season.

Carlton: But the characters are essentially the same. I mean, Kate’s still a fugitive, Hurley’s still a lottery winner, Jack’s still a doctor. I mean, the archetype of the characters haven’t altered have they?

Damon: Right. But it’s a nature vs nurture thing where you basically say Hurley’s a lottery winner but this time around he thinks he’s the luckiest guy in the world. So you basically say, he’s still the same guy but what series of events have led him to believe he’s lucky.

TPTB could of course make up any story they wish and attach random wording labels to anything they want. From what I've seen so far, their labels and wording have been right on with how they are most commonly used both in sci-fi and physics. The plots usually are too.

The correct quantum mechanical definition of parallel universes is "universes that are separated from each other by a single quantum event." ....The concept of "sidewise" time travel, a term taken from Murray Leinster's " Sidewise in Time," is often used to allow characters to pass through many different alternate histories, all descendant from some common branch point. There is even a Sidewise Award for Alternate History, which recognizes the best alternate history stories and novels of the year.

So if they are saying "sideways" they should be referring to two universes that branched off from the same event. "Should be" is of course different then "are", but I do think they are using the term to express this thought.
.

I think you are incorrect. The writers are using the term sideways as they used flashbacks and flashfowards - as a story telling term, not a scientific term or definition. The new off island timeline is being shown side by side with the on island timeline, hence the use of the word sideways. Simple, concise, appealing to all viewers, most of whom aren't delving into the scientific how-to of all that is happening. And it fits with all they've said thus far.

qrsarts

03-11-2010, 02:11 PM

Sam G

03-11-2010, 06:57 PM

What's the policy on spoilers here? Cause I have a little theory on this but it would require me giving away who is the main focus of the episode in two weeks.

If it's a theory dealing with Spoiler information it should go in Spoiler Theories

NBC001

03-11-2010, 07:18 PM

I just have to believe that when Ben came back from the Temple and the Incident happened (not necessarily Jughead), Roger might have said "let's get the heck out of this crazy place....these people shot my kid...I am outta here". He says something like ....what would our life have been like if we had stayed? Well we all know that answer. In this flashsideways, Ben gets his hearts desire(s)...for Alex to be alive and happy...and for his dad not to hate him.
"Dr.Linus"
ROGER: That's why I signed up for that damn Dharma Initiative and took you to the island, and... they were decent people. Smarter than I'll ever be. Imagine how different our lives would have been if we'd stayed.
I would imagine if they had stayed on the Island, in the Flash Sideways time line, they would most likely be dead. The Island is under water in the Flash sideways time line.

Avius

03-11-2010, 07:47 PM

We don't know when the island went under water except that it was sometime after Dharma built their compound there. I guess the most likely scenario is that the island moved or was moved. I still don't understand how all that works. Hawking said they could find where the island was going to be rather than where it was. And that window was a short one. How can you be on an island and not know it's moving. No one looks at the stars?

lostorfound

03-11-2010, 09:11 PM

I'm onboard with #2 and have been since the premiere. And I believe all the changes we're seeing in our Losties and others is a major clue that something huge is still to come. Also, we've seen de ja vu moments that support a future event creating the FS.Are you talking about the knowing looks the Losties have given each other and Jack's appendix? If so, I'm curious why you see them more likely to be a foreshadowing of something to come as opposed to a confusion over something that already happened.

Dan said the past couldn't be changed, then came back after 3 yrs. in Ann Arbor and explained the concept of the variable, which he believed could change things. The bomb was the variable but it didn't go off. But that doesn't preclude another variable "event" still to come.
As a time traveler from 2004, Dan knew what would happen if there was no bomb because it had already played out once:

" --they're gonna drill ..and accidentally tap into a massive pocket of energy. ..So in order to contain it, they're gonna have to cement the entire area in....And this containment----I believe you called it "the Hatch." ... Because of this one accident, these people are gonna spend the next 20 years keeping that energy at bay... by pressing a button... a button that your friend Desmond will one day fail to push, and that will cause your plane--Oceanic 815--to crash on this island......This entire chain of events--it's gonna start happening this afternoon. "

His solution was to set off the bomb:

" I think I can negate that energy under the Swan.....If I can, then that hatch will never be built, .. your plane will land, just like it's supposed to, in Los Angeles.
FARADAY: I'm gonna detonate a hydrogen bomb. Jughead when Dharma's drilling released the Island's energy"

You say "The bomb was the variable but it didn't go off." In the story that continues on the Islandin 2007, this is true. No bomb=Swan= 815 crashing. So what would equal 815 not crashing? According to Dan...Bomb=No Swan=No 815 Crash.

This is basically what is reitterated in the podcast you posted.

Carlton: That is true. Ok, so, we have two distinct timelines, that are, that we are showing you on the show. One timeline seems to be derived from a theory that when the bomb went off exactly what Faraday was postulating occurred. There was a reset and basically 815 flew over what was once the island, landed in L.A., and these people never experienced the crash, never met each other by crashing on the plane and there’s a timeline going forward.

The other timeline, obviously, is on the island. Juliet hit the bomb, it basically jumped them, you know, forward in time, but they’re still stuck on the island, and they’re dealing with the consequences of the fact that they’re still marooned there.

IMO, TPTB are not working against these things being true.

The writers are using the term sideways as they used flashbacks and flashfowards - as a story telling term, not a scientific term or definition. The new off island timeline is being shown side by side with the on island timeline, hence the use of the word sideways. Simple, concise, appealing to all viewers, most of whom aren't delving into the scientific how-to of all that is happening. And it fits with all they've said thus far.
I believe I said it was a sci-fi term and cited the literary reference. When the terms flashback and flash forward were used, they were used correctly
Flashback:2 a : interruption of chronological sequence (as in a film or literary work (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/flashback#)) by interjection of events of earlier occurrence;b : a past incident recurring vividly in the mindFlash forward: interruption of chronological sequence (as in a film or novel) by interjection of events of future occurrenceand that was the point I was making. TPTB usually use terms that are true literary devices that others have used the same terms for. I simply gave examples of "sideways" as it has been used in literature.

The physic element was referring more to TT, what makes it possible, what conditions would need to be meant, how paradox is avoided, why a TTer must have a self-consistent history, how free-will and destiny apply to physics, multiverses, Many-World-Interpretation, etc.

NBC001

03-11-2010, 09:24 PM

RULost

03-11-2010, 09:35 PM

lostorfound

03-11-2010, 09:41 PM

We don't know when the island went under water except that it was sometime after Dharma built their compound there. IMO, the sinking was a slow result of the Island's energy being destroyed by Jughead. That was Dan's goal, to destroy the energy so the Swan wouldn't have to be built. We've heard so much about the Island's energy, exotic matter, unusual natural properties etc., that the Island's existence may have actually been caused or maintained by such. No energy meant no Swan, but what is the consequence to the Island itself??
100%
Just how many knowing looks/de ja vue moments do you both think there have been?
Jack's look outside the plane window, his "don't I know you from somewhere" with Des, Kate's look at Jack in LAX, Kate's looking in the mirror at the gas station, Jack not remembering his appendectomy, the name "Aaron" popping into Claire's head. That's it off the top of my head.

Avius

03-11-2010, 11:10 PM

I know this is crazy to think of but what if the two realities actually are real side by side happening like others have said at the same time...but one is not more real than the other they are now both "competing" to be real. One is MIB's timeline and one is Jacob's each finding a way for their timeline to succeed?

actually I meant to say competing to be the only timeline*

We know Desmond experience many parallels. Each time we saw Charlie die in his flash represented a completely different reality, so I definitley think each is as real as the next.

RULost

03-11-2010, 11:14 PM

We know Desmond experience many parallels. Each time we saw Charlie die in his flash represented a completely different reality, so I definitley think each is as real as the next.

that could be, I always thought he saved him and everytime the universe course corrected him...but he could have been seeing different realities too

lostorfound

03-11-2010, 11:29 PM

that could be, I always thought he saved him and everytime the universe course corrected him...but he could have been seeing different realities tooI thought the same. Each time he saw a "flash" of Charlie's death, that same death scenario would actually come to be realized. If they were flashes of different realities, they wouldn't actually happen in everyone's present Island reality would they?

Avius

03-11-2010, 11:47 PM

Desmond was consciousness-traveling not future-seeing, that's the way I viewed it.

LnGrrrR

03-12-2010, 05:02 AM

Desmond was consciousness-traveling not future-seeing, that's the way I viewed it.

How do you know it wasn't "parallel-world" seeing though? :)

I think that Eloise is wrong about the "course-correction" if there are alt timelines as the Flash-Sideways seem to show.

Diddt

03-12-2010, 05:21 AM

Here's my crackpot theory I think that Roger and Ben left the Island when Roger found out that he was gonna be a janitor. I don't think they stayed on the island like they did in our original timeline. Also I think that the island sank not because of the incident but because there was no incident. Think about it, if Jack wasn't there to drop the A-bomb and the electro-magnetic pocket kept on going maybe that is the cause of the sinking of the Island. This keeps with the idea that the flashside ways universe is one in which the the plane never crashed because if the plane never crash our Losties would never be in 1977 to stop the incident.

lostorfound

03-12-2010, 09:54 AM

How do you know it wasn't "parallel-world" seeing though?
I think that Eloise is wrong about the "course-correction" if there are alt timelines as the Flash-Sideways seem to show.
What happens in an other world shouldn't happen exactly the same way in your world shortly after you envision them. That seems to be more like a glance at you're own future. Like your mind is running a little bit ahead of what is physically happening.

IMO, it's highly possible that when Des was CTT to 1998 he was in a parallel, but once he was consciously back on the Island , he was back completely.

Eloise first explains WHH and course correction. TPTB confirm her words.

-we are very paradox averse; ..when our characters are time traveling, nothing that they do can change the present or the future that you have seen
-For us, what we don't want is for the audience to not be invested in the flash-forwards. When you see that, it would be pretty meaningless if they were a changeable reality- -Well, as far as time travel goes.
..Ms. Hawking basically explained those rules in.."Flashes Before Your Eyes[/COLOR]" where she ..said that the universe has a way of course correcting, so even if you did something in the past that you didn't do before,..the sort of fabric of time like swoops in..and fixes everything so things don't go off the rails. ..after "The Constant" we're going to get a lot of questions like "Well, did Penny know when she went to go see Desmond at the stadium in 2001 that he had told her to wait by the phone back in 1994?" and all of these questions, and to that we say refer to the Ms. Hawking scene in "FBYE". She gives a fairly good explanation of how everything works.

Des's "flashes" were another reiteration of WHH and course correction. The man in the red shoes and Charlie. Try to save them with your knowledge of the future and the universe will find a way to course correct. WHH.

It began with FBYE in Season 3. WHH continued to be shown over and over again throughout Season 5. S5 was a season long set up of getting all the pieces in place to attempt to make a change. There were three whole episodes dedicated to setting up the perfect plan...set off an h-bomb, destroy the Island's energy, the Swan will not have to be built, and nothing will bring down 815. Still, the TTing Losties from 2004 and 2007 wound up right back where they began....crashed on the Island. WHH.

An alternate/parallel world or a multiverse does not interfere with WHH. They do not change the past. They are branches stemming from a common event. Equally possible outcomes of an event, both realized in different worlds. This is how the Many World's Interpretation was started. An answer to avoiding impossible paradoxes while addressing different probable outcomes to the same event.

simone5p

03-12-2010, 12:22 PM

FRANK: You know, I was supposed to be flyin' it. Oceanic 815.
BEN: And why didn't you?
FRANK: I overslept.
BEN: Come on...
FRANK: Can you believe it? Imagine how different my life would be had that alarm gone off.
BEN: How different would it have been? The island still got you in the end. Didn't it?

Is this foreshadowing the convergence of the two time lines?

bdowning

03-12-2010, 12:55 PM

Jughead is clearly a red herring. But I would go further and say that the alt timeline happens as a result of some kind of resolution in the Flocke vs. Jacob/Widmore conflict where the remaining on-island characters are allowed to live better lives (i.e. redeem themselves). In effect, the island universe is erased and they are reset to the alt universe as kind of a tabula rasa and second chance. We don't yet know who or what performs the reset. But I reserve the right to change my mind. ;)

-spec

This doesn't make sense......Ben was recuperating from being shot by Sayid. Ben certainly hadn't come back yet. And why would Roger leave without him?

To me this means one thing......Jughead did NOT create the LA timeline. There are a couple possiblities......

1. Some other event BEFORE Jughead created the LA timeline.

2. The LA timeline is going to be created by an event that has not yet happened.

lostorfound

03-12-2010, 01:00 PM

BEN: How different would it have been? The island still got you in the end. Didn't it?
Is this foreshadowing the convergence of the two time lines?

Frank was supposed to fly 815 but didn't, and then got on the freighter, then piloted Ajira all in the same universe. Course correction in play twice. The Island still got him in the end.

"How different would it have been?" get's us asking ourselves if the lives of the character's really are that different in the ALT. I think it was meant to draw attention to all the likenesses between the NO Crash and CRASH worlds.

In the end, ALTBen does the right thing and puts Alex first. ORIGBen genuinely realizes what a mistake it was not to have.

UnderAlienControl

03-12-2010, 05:05 PM

Frank was supposed to fly 815 but didn't, and then got on the freighter, then piloted Ajira all in the same universe. Course correction in play twice. The Island still got him in the end.

"How different would it have been?" get's us asking ourselves if the lives of the character's really are that different in the ALT. I think it was meant to draw attention to all the likenesses between the NO Crash and CRASH worlds.

In the end, ALTBen does the right thing and puts Alex first. ORIGBen genuinely realizes what a mistake it was not to have.
A few observations here. Frank didn't get eaten by The Smokester like he would have been and this kept him in play. Seeing as how Smokey terminated the pilot straight-away, this could have been bad for Frank had he not "overslept". Yes, the island got him in the end but Smokey hasn't yet. Looks like more facilitation to me on that one to keep him alive.

Also, it's my belief that Frank is special, too. He's a special pilot who we've seen can put it down on a dime anywhere. Just like Jack's a "special" surgeon. Repairs the irreparable. However, I'm not so sure they aren't channeling power from another source. Do you think Jack really fixed Sarah? How about when he was in the operating room and he forcefully told her "I'm gonna fix you...!". Re-watch the scene and notice how he seems to come out of a fugue, and the reaction of the surgical team. They look at him like he's possessed or something. I think something was talking through him.

I think it's similiar with Malkin when he got the sudden blast of real info to give to Claire. It scared him. But he is, after all, literally being used as a maulkin. Same with his daughter. Dead as hell from drowning, then magically comes back and has a message to deliver. Clearly, somebody has been operating in the 4-D (or supernatural)realm for all of these "miracles" to occur. There is facilitation on all different levels. This would be the highest I would think.

I think we've been looking at a type of mirror world more than anything else. Every week the show has had a prominent relection of the person whom the episode is centered on. Jack had like 7 reflections in his Mirror Twin (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=121571). Sayid reflected prominently in his brothers front door. Ben reflected prominently in the microwave. I haven't checked Kate and Locke's epi yet, but I already know I'll see the same things. Very prominent and very intentional. After all, in this mirror world or alt, aren't you just seeing the flipside of the coin with the people/personalities we have been watching. Ben gives his dad life-taking gas on the island, but doses him with life-giving gas in the alt. Ok Ok I get it, alot of things are reversed or mirrored in the alt. I got that much from the relections already. No big deal. These things are incidental.

What is it in and of itself? What is it's true nature? Refuge, Sanctuary, a Blair Witch type mirror world that Flocke would like to jump into, a Jacobian world where these warm fuzzy versions of the originals could somehow get to the island again (reset) and make some more progress before the end? This would mean a convergence or shift of some kind would have to occur for this outcome.

Like I've said before, I think this was all discussed alot 3-4 years ago. With the Earth-2 versions of Green Lantern and The Flash in the comic, along with the Bottle City of Kandor (which in modern Superman lore is controlled by an alien wizard named Tolos who traps people in it in order to possess their bodies-sound familiar?), to Nozz-A-La ColaTM alt/parallel/mirror verse has always been hanging around on the fringe so it's no big surprise that it's finally here. Just need to figure out exactly which one or what exactly it is, I guess.

Only fools are enslaved by time and space. Ms. Klugh didn't seem to mind taking one in the head just to slow the Losties down, so I figured she knows about these things and has no fear of giving up her life because she knows that she will still exist. A smart mouse relies on more than just one hole, after all...

As for Ben, well it's not so much that he made a mistake when he got Alex killed. He made a miscalculation. He had a plan, but Widmore changed the rules. If Ben didn't have a plan, he wouldn't be relying on the rules. I figure his plan was to send Danielle and Karl out there to get whacked by the mercs, knowing that the mercs couldn't kill Alex and would bring her right back to him where he could deal with them and retrieve her all at once. You really think he want's Karl or Danielle at the temple? Two birds killed with one stone and Ben never even gets his hands dirty. Typical Ben...But eventually, he met his Waterloo due to the fact that he miscalculated alot of things in war. That's why he got ran off the island. Too much pressure from too many fronts and he was losing all the battles. His miscalculations generally involved underestimating just what other people would do to win and survive.

I'm guess I'm now thinking of the alt more as some type of split reality. The Losties blew up the island in '77 setting off a chain reaction that time shifted them to their correct time while at the same time splitting them between the two worlds. The one they belong in and the new one they formed. Because these are the versions physically that were in play when it was formed. They sank the island, only they didn't sink with it. Flashed-out, while at the same time being there for the birth of the alt...in accordance with The Prophecy, of course.

After all, it's hard to explain Jack having a fresh wound and a scar in this world that he obtained from the other world/an island he never went to and say that it's two separate versions of the same person. That's not a clean break. Seems like the person has been split instead. The same physical person split between lines. In this scenario, I could see that "All Things That Rise Must Converge" and at some point it "will all come back around again"...:alien:

>"He walks among us, but he is not one of us"...
>Did going back to 1954, essentially existing before they were born shape the process or create an opening in any way? Kiddie Locke drawing Smokey being an example,,,

BoogaFrito

03-12-2010, 05:49 PM

Des's "flashes" were another reiteration of WHH and course correction. The man in the red shoes and Charlie. Try to save them with your knowledge of the future and the universe will find a way to course correct. WHH.Actually, Desmond's flashes completely fly in the face of WHH. If Charlie died by lightning strike, but Desmond saw the future and set up a lighting rod, then WH did not H. It was changed.

I find the "Course Correction" concept to be completely nonsensical. If someone lives an extra day they can completely change the course of events. Look at Charlie deactivating the Looking Glass. Sure, he ended up dead (hell, we ALL end up dead eventually), but once any one thing is different, a new timeline has been created.

Cardielost

03-12-2010, 07:24 PM

Well, it's WHH, not WMHH (what may happen, happens). It is consistent to say that you may change a possible future but you can't change the past. The more cogent example is when Des apparently changes who gets hit by the cricket bat. Unless he crossed into the/an ALT with that flash, then he did negate WHH.

Cardie

lostorfound

03-12-2010, 08:19 PM

I'm guess I'm thinking of the alt now more as some type of split reality. The Losties blew up the island in '77 setting off a chain reaction that time shifted them to their correct time while at the same time splitting them between the two worlds. The one they belong in and the new one they formed. I agree.

Actually, Desmond's flashes completely fly in the face of WHH. If Charlie died by lightning strike, but Desmond saw the future and set up a lighting rod, then WH did not H. It was changed. ...Sure, he ended up dead (hell, we ALL end up dead eventually), but once any one thing is different, a new timeline has been created.
I remember this point being discussed for a long time after FBYE, and it is a valid one. Course Correction, based on the Chronology Protection Conjecture, pertains to TT (should it be possible). The theory says that a TTer could never travel to the past and change something that already happened. Such theories often include words like "nothing substantial" and "affected but not changed" which when used in sci-fi leave wiggle room.

I guess it can be said that Des envisioned things happening to kill Charlie, that had not already happened, so he was able to save him. In the end, Des realized whatever he did, Charlie was going to die.

I agree that with multiverses, each time Des saved Charlie from a death that was really possible to happen, a new one would be created. I have two problems with this. The first is how close Des's visions were to FBYE when we were first learning about WHH and CC. The second is that if several other universes exist (unseen by us) where Charlie died, it kind of takes away from the biggie we are seeing now.