I think it's pretty interesting that so many people are having Locke-like breakdowns on the show now, and that they are all a result of Jacob's machinations. A seeming abuse of blind faith. We saw where Locke's faith ultimately led him.

Ben, Jack and now Richard. It's great to see Locke's own weaknesses play out in other characters, showing he was no more flawed than anyone else on the show. It seems Richard and Ben are in the process of having their faith restored, but Locke's faith was restored as well after his first major breakdown, only to lead him back again to a path of misery, and death.

I loved the Richard scene. It really humanized his character in a way we haven't seen before. Probably the most emotion he's shown thus far too.

We always sort of assumed he was this omniscient guy, with a clear mission, and who was ostensibly confident in his role on the Island.

Now we find out that he's not so pleased with his situation. A lifetime of indentured servitude to Jacob, with no foreseeable end, and no discernible purpose or fulfillment to it. Sounds pretty miserable to me.

It really mirrored Ben's speech to Jacob at the end of S5. Also ironically mirrored what Richard told young Ben: "wait, be patient, your time will come"

Also Brings up the age old conundrum about living forever: if you could, would you really want to?

I was hoping that now that Jacob was dead, the power he endowed Richard with would fade, but it seems that Richard is still indeed stuck in "chains."

Why do you call him Abslo!

Why do you call him Abslo!

That was a typo. Meant to say "also"

I think it's pretty interesting that so many people are having Locke-like breakdowns on the show now, and that they are all a result of Jacob's machinations. A seeming abuse of blind faith.

Ben, Jack and now Richard. It's great to see Locke's own weaknesses play out in other characters, showing he was no more flawed than anyone else on the show.

Now that IS ironic... and beautifully so. :yes:

I loved the Richard scene. It really humanized his character in a way we haven't seen before. Probably the most emotion he's shown thus far too.

We always sort of assumed he was this omniscient guy, with a clear mission, and who was ostensibly confident in his role on the Island.

Now we find out that he's not so pleased with his situation. A lifetime of indentured servitude to Jacob, with no foreseeable end, and no discernible purpose or fulfillment to it. Sounds pretty miserable to me.

It really mirrored Ben's speech to Jacob at the end of S5. Also ironically mirrored what Richard told young Ben: "wait, be patient, your time will come"

Also Brings up the age old conundrum about living forever: if you could, would you really want to?

I was hoping that now that Jacob was dead, the power he endowed Richard with would fade, but it seems that Richard is still indeed stuck in "chains."

It was a bit of awesome seeing Richard suddenly so... human. Confused, angry, forsaken. Indeed, all the things the major majority of characters perceived as weaknesses on Locke's part in particular- now reflected on ALL of them without prejudice. The scene between Jack, Hurley and Richard said it all. We're finally seeing all of the characters for the one thing they all share in common- they're all lost, every last one of them. Some just hid it better until recent events forced them to give it up, while others like Richard are only just realizing it themselves.

The scene between Jack, Hurley and Richard said it all. We're finally seeing all of the characters for the one thing they all share in common- they're all lost, every last one of them. Some just hid it better until recent events forced them to give it up, while others like Richard are only just realizing it themselves.

I find it strange that we were given the impression that, just after losing his long-time faith in Jacob and having his perceptions shattered, he is already willing to have faith in Jack, and follow him as a leader, when Jack has no idea what he's doing really.

I'm hoping we will see more complexity to their dynamic down the road. It seemed Richard was not interested in being swayed to either side -- neither Jacob or the MIB -- and I hope this is a stance that more characters will take.

I find it strange that we were given the impression that, just after losing his long-time faith in Jacob and having his perceptions shattered, he is already willing to have faith in Jack, and follow him as a leader, when Jack has no idea what he's doing really.

I think Jack simply restored his faith in Jacob. Remember, he assumed that because Jacob was dead that everything had come to nothing, only to learn that Jacob is still moving pieces around, that there is a plan in motion that hasn't failed yet.

Jack forced him to realize, hey, Just because Jacob is dead, doesn't mean he's out. Ok, if he's still in it, I am, too.

To me, what is ironic is that I think most of Locke's blind faith in Jacob & following what Jacob wanted him to do wasn't Jacob at all. I think a lot of what Locke did was orchestrated by MiB posing as Jacob & giving direction as Jacob.

I find it strange that we were given the impression that, just after losing his long-time faith in Jacob and having his perceptions shattered, he is already willing to have faith in Jack, and follow him as a leader, when Jack has no idea what he's doing really.
I'm hoping we will see more complexity to their dynamic down the road. It seemed Richard was not interested in being swayed to either side -- neither Jacob or the MIB -- and I hope this is a stance that more characters will take.

I'm thinking complexity will be an understatement, LOL. Maybe I'm over-analyzing, but I thought there was a certain tone of animosity in Richard's acceptance- and a definatelack of sincerity. "You seem to have all the answers"...

Come to think of it, wasn't that word-for-word the reaction Ben had towards Locke when it first became apparent that Locke shared a deeper connection to Jacob that Ben didn't?

If anything, it sounds as though Richard is just completely disheartened and angry, following along in Jack's wake because there doesn't seem to be a better option at this point. He's stuck between being afraid that Jack is falling into the exact same trap he did- because it now seems to him that Jacob has been playing him- and being afraid that he's NOT... that after all this time Jacob has cast Richard aside completely and replaced him with Jack as the "chosen one" as though Richard never even existed.

Personally, I think this says a LOT about what we can expect to learn about Jacob in the final episodes... and it's not looking so good for him. It seems Dogan, Richard, Ben, and Locke (because Jacob did give Locke the same pitch, and Locke went along with him because he so desperately wanted to believe his life had the meaningful purpose Jacob promised him afterall, then died in his service) have ALL been manipulated and ultimately forsaken by Jacob in the name of "blind faith" and "destiny".

I think it's pretty interesting that so many people are having Locke-like breakdowns on the show now, and that they are all a result of Jacob's machinations. A seeming abuse of blind faith. We saw where Locke's faith ultimately led him.

Ben, Jack and now Richard. It's great to see Locke's own weaknesses play out in other characters, showing he was no more flawed than anyone else on the show. It seems Richard and Ben are in the process of having their faith restored, but Locke's faith was restored as well after his first major breakdown, only to lead him back again to a path of misery, and death.

I loved the Richard scene. It really humanized his character in a way we haven't seen before. Probably the most emotion he's shown thus far too.

We always sort of assumed he was this omniscient guy, with a clear mission, and who was ostensibly confident in his role on the Island.

Now we find out that he's not so pleased with his situation. A lifetime of indentured servitude to Jacob, with no foreseeable end, and no discernible purpose or fulfillment to it. Sounds pretty miserable to me.

It really mirrored Ben's speech to Jacob at the end of S5. Also ironically mirrored what Richard told young Ben: "wait, be patient, your time will come"

Also Brings up the age old conundrum about living forever: if you could, would you really want to?

I was hoping that now that Jacob was dead, the power he endowed Richard with would fade, but it seems that Richard is still indeed stuck in "chains."
There are two things I find interesting about all this. First is Richard and Jack. A couple of seasons ago, we all probably would have said that these two characters couldn't be more different. But watching them talk with the dynamite between them I realized that they are really alike. They even look alike! They both know very little about what's really going on, and both were brought to the island with the promise that things were "happening for a reason." Both lost faith for a while, and now both are having that faith restored.

The second thing is I'm realizing the writers don't intend the faith/science rollercoaster to be just for the characters, but for the audience as well. For the first few seasons, many lost faith in the show and turned away. Some stayed in. Now, when we, the audience who has hung on for so long, really have nothing concrete to stand on, many are losing faith again. It's awesome! The question then is...are you a man of science, or a man of faith?

To me, what is ironic is that I think most of Locke's blind faith in Jacob & following what Jacob wanted him to do wasn't Jacob at all. I think a lot of what Locke did was orchestrated by MiB posing as Jacob & giving direction as Jacob.

What point would there be posing as Jacob when nobody knows and never HAS known- thanks to good old "blind faith", which of them is good and which is evil, what they really want, and WHY? What makes us so sure that MIB really is the guilty party in this scenario in the first place? Jacob's left a trail of blood behind him that goes on for who knows how long really? We've have reason to believe it was all for the greater good, but we have just as much reason to believe he's been misleading us all along. The same can still be said for MIB, but with one major difference- if you think about it, we haven't seen him do nearly as much harm as we have with Jacob.

Then again, there's still a very real possibility that BOTH are evil- manipulating, deceiving, and destroying these mere mortals in their own war against eachother. Without knowing exactly what their true purpose is, it's impossible to make that determination.

(because Jacob did give Locke the same pitch, and Locke went along with him because he so desperately wanted to believe his life had the meaningful purpose Jacob promised him afterall, then died in his service) .

I don't believe that Jacob gave Locke the pitch - I think it was MiB.
100%
we haven't seen him do nearly as much harm as we have with Jacob.


I believe a lot of the harm we've seen that has been attributed to Jacob was actually MiB. "Christian" said he was speaking for Jacob and that is who gave Locke most of his direction - which he then passed on to other people in Jacob's name. I think "Christian" was actually MiB.

I don't believe that Jacob gave Locke the pitch - I think it was MiB.
100%


I believe a lot of the harm we've seen that has been attributed to Jacob was actually MiB. "Christian" said he was speaking for Jacob and that is who gave Locke most of his direction - which he then passed on to other people in Jacob's name. I think "Christian" was actually MiB.

Again, based on what information- and for what purpose? With everyone having been deceived so extensively for so long and left with no idea who's who and what's what, what need is there for either to pose as the other? Did Locke follow Jacob for the simple fact that he was Jacob? No, because Locke had no earthly idea who Jacob was in the first place. He followed Jacob because he believed what Jacob told him, not because of who he appeared to be. Who someone appears to be doesn't mean a thing when that someone is a total *stranger*.

Let's say, for example, that I wanted to convince you to do something for me. You don't know me- in fact, you've never seen or heard of me in your entire life. So I decide that I'm going to disguise myself as, I dunno... my cousin, twice removed. Who you've ALSO never met and don't recognise. She has a really honest face though, you know? Me, I look like TROUBLE... so I come to you with my epic sales pitch as my honest, morally sound looking cousin. Are you more or less likely to do what I want you to do based entirely on who I appear to be? Not likely.

Pointless.

If anything, it sounds as though Richard is just completely disheartened and angry, following along in Jack's wake because there doesn't seem to be a better option at this point. He's stuck between being afraid that Jack is falling into the exact same trap he did- because it now seems to him that Jacob has been playing him- and being afraid that he's NOT... that after all this time Jacob has cast Richard aside completely and replaced him with Jack as the "chosen one" as though Richard never even existed.

Personally, I think this says a LOT about what we can expect to learn about Jacob in the final episodes... and it's not looking so good for him. It seems Dogan, Richard, Ben, and Locke (because Jacob did give Locke the same pitch, and Locke went along with him because he so desperately wanted to believe his life had the meaningful purpose Jacob promised him afterall, then died in his service) have ALL been manipulated and ultimately forsaken by Jacob in the name of "blind faith" and "destiny".

I surely hope you are right. It would be too much for me to accept Richard blindly following someone else who is completely confused (the blind leading the blind), right after having the revelation that he has been blindly following Jacob for no apparent reason.
It's also a bit much for me to accept that Jack all of a sudden, after staring at the ocean for an hour, suddenly realizes he has a purpose and Jacob has clear goals for him. But maybe I read too much into that scene, and he is still rather distrusting and befuddled.

The question then is...are you a man of science, or a man of faith?

I think I'm pretty clearly a man of science. For me, blind faith is equivocal of ignorance. When it persists in light of facts to the contrary, ignorance becomes stupidity or denial/stubbornness.

He followed Jacob because he believed what Jacob told him, not because of who he appeared to be. Who someone appears to be doesn't mean a thing when that someone is a total *stranger*.

I think though that much of MIB's manipulation of pretending to represent Jacob with Locke was more meant for Ben...kind of designed to drive a wedge and get Ben questioning while at the same time giving Locke the perception of importance that would lead to his death.

I think I'm pretty clearly a man of science. For me, blind faith is equivocal of ignorance. When it persists in light of facts to the contrary, ignorance becomes stupidity or denial/stubbornness.
But are the losties/Richard/Ben acting on blind faith? They do have at least some circumstantial evidence that there is greater meaning. I like Ben's line -- "two days after I found out I had a tumor on my spine a spinal surgeon fell out of the sky. We all believe sooner or later" -- it shows that while their are few definitive answers, there have at least been indications of a greater meaning to their life. Jack has finally come to understand this.

Are there any fans out there who believe at this point that the show will end and there will have been no ultimate reason for the crash of Oceanic 815? Of course not, because we have been shown that there is more to it than that.

So I guess I'm agreeing with you that blind faith is ignorance. However, I don't think the losties are being asked to go on blind faith.

But are the losties/Richard/Ben acting on blind faith? They do have at least some circumstantial evidence that there is greater meaning. I like Ben's line -- "two days after I found out I had a tumor on my spine a spinal surgeon fell out of the sky. We all believe sooner or later" -- it shows that while their are few definitive answers, there have at least been indications of a greater meaning to their life. Jack has finally come to understand this.

Are there any fans out there who believe at this point that the show will end and there will have been no ultimate reason for the crash of Oceanic 815? Of course not, because we have been shown that there is more to it than that.

So I guess I'm agreeing with you that blind faith is ignorance. However, I don't think the losties are being asked to go on blind faith.


Yeah I can go with that :)
I mean, if you saw a magic lighthouse mirror that showed your childhood home, that's definitely some evidence that you are probably part of something important.

I guess I mean blind faith as it relates to their trust in Jacob. Are they still trusting him at this point? I'm not sure if anybody is. But if they are, I'd have to wonder what their reasoning is.

I'm wondering if there might be some big showdown between Jack and Ilana brewing. I can't imagine Jack, after his revelations at the ligthouse, would be too keen on following Ilana's commands and her servitude to Jacob.

Yeah I can go with that :)
I mean, if you saw a magic lighthouse mirror that showed your childhood home, that's definitely some evidence that you are probably part of something important.

I guess I mean blind faith as it relates to their trust in Jacob. Are they still trusting him at this point? I'm not sure if anybody is. But if they are, I'd have to wonder what their reasoning is.

I'm wondering if there might be some big showdown between Jack and Ilana brewing. I can't imagine Jack, after his revelations at the ligthouse, would be too keen on following Ilana's commands and her servitude to Jacob.
You've got a point. There may be an indication of greater meaning but who really knows where it's coming from? Hurley has been given the greatest reason to trust Jacob--he's met him and talked to him. Jack only knows what Jacob said/did through Hurley. I guess I can't really validate Jack's belief in Jacob (yet) when I myself am not entirely sure if he's good.

Yes, it will be interesting to see the Illana/Jack interaction. Both are leaders who expect those following them to sort of shut and do what they say (Jack less so, but still). I'm not sure how that will go down. It will be especially explosive if Jack asks questions that Illana refuses to answer.

Again, based on what information- and for what purpose? With everyone having been deceived so extensively for so long and left with no idea who's who and what's what, what need is there for either to pose as the other? Did Locke follow Jacob for the simple fact that he was Jacob? No, because Locke had no earthly idea who Jacob was in the first place. He followed Jacob because he believed what Jacob told him, not because of who he appeared to be. Who someone appears to be doesn't mean a thing when that someone is a total *stranger*.
.

You are missing a VERY important piece.... Locke followed who he thought was Jacob because Ben told him Jacob was there. Ben didn't know whether Jacob was there or not, because he had never seen Jacob. Locke saw "Christian", who said he was speaking on behalf of Jacob. It was never Jacob who was telling Locke what to do, it was MiB.
100%
giving Locke the perception of importance that would lead to his death.


Exactly. MiB needed Locke to create/use the loophole. It was MiB manipulating Locke, not Jacob.

Hurley has been given the greatest reason to trust Jacob--he's met him and talked to him.

This still trips me up. After seeing Hurley talk to dead-Jacob, I somewhat assumed that Hurley's "visions" were validated -- that is to say, he wasn't just some crazy guy seeing hallucinations. But what does this mean for the visions he had previously? Were all those people "real" as well, even Dave?

This ghost Jacob is supplying Hurley with information that only Jacob would know, meaning Hurley couldn't of conjured it up in his mind subconsciously, which is why it validates the "vision" for me. Something still feels weird about it -- like can we really trust a ghost that only Hurley sees?

Unless of course you are talking about the fact that Hurley met Jacob in the cab that time, as an aware adult (which I just realized is probably what you were referring to).

I'm sort of trying to approach this situation from my own point of view (which I guess might be wrong, since I don't have the same life experiences as the characters).
But so far, what has trusting Jacob brought Hurley? Noting disastrous for Hurley, sure, but it wound up leading Sayid to the dark side, and in turn getting tons of people at the Temple killed. Listening to him a second brought them to the lighthouse, which again didn't really affect Hurley himself one way or another, but certainly resulted in emotional trauma for others (namely Jack).

Not sure where I'm going with this... just something to mull over :)