These are some things that only slowly dawned on me.

We know that Dr. Chang made it off the island, he is Charlotte's boss at some museum. Since Sawyer and Miles are partners, it is a good bet that Dr. Chang has met Sawyer and would recognize him from the Island (in some previous episode Dr. Chang references LaFleur, so he definitely knows Sawyer). More immediately, Dr. Chang would recognize his own son (as he grew up in LA) from the island, and so he knows that time travelling has gone on.

Dr. Chang must be very interested in the fact that his own son, and Sawyer, have done some time travelling. Presumably he spends a lot of time trying to figure out how it happened (which may also explain why he works in a museum, and not at a university, because even by academic standards such interests would be deemed hairball).

Furthermore, he may even be assuming (incorrectly!) that he must figure out a way to send his son (and Sawyer) back to the 1970s (for if he doesn't (he might think) then he may never be warned by his son to get everyone off the island, and that might upset the time/space continuum).

Just needed to get that off my chest. Any other thoughts?

EDIT: One more piece of knowledge: Dr. Chang must also remember Hurley (if not because of his famous garlic mayo, because he tells Chang "alright dude, we're from the future"). And, He may have seen Hurley on TV from when he won the lottery -- so he may also be keeping track of Hurley.

Interesting. This is turning into The Final Countdown".

That would be an interesting twist, I like it, Facehead. And would be nice to get Dr. Chaing back into things.

These are some things that only slowly dawned on me.

We know that Dr. Chang made it off the island, he is Charlotte's boss at some museum. Since Sawyer and Miles are partners, it is a good bet that Dr. Chang has met Sawyer and would recognize him from the Island (in some previous episode Dr. Chang references LaFleur, so he definitely knows Sawyer). More immediately, Dr. Chang would recognize his own son (as he grew up in LA) from the island, and so he knows that time travelling has gone on.

Dr. Chang must be very interested in the fact that his own son, and Sawyer, have done some time travelling. Presumably he spends a lot of time trying to figure out how it happened (which may also explain why he works in a museum, and not at a university, because even by academic standards such interests would be deemed hairball).

Furthermore, he may even be assuming (incorrectly!) that he must figure out a way to send his son (and Sawyer) back to the 1970s (for if he doesn't (he might think) then he may never be warned by his son to get everyone off the island, and that might upset the time/space continuum).

Just needed to get that off my chest. Any other thoughts?

In the alternate universe, NONE of the events involving the losties that we have seen depicted up until the end of season 5 ever happened.

Oceanic 816 never crashed hence none of the other stuff, including the Losties time travelling, ever happened.

I believe that, being a scientist interested in time travel, he would be working somewhere else, instead of a museum...Maybe some kind of private funded project ala Dharma....
If this Chang remembers Sawyer, sure he hasn't said a word to him or his son about it.....
That is why I am leaning to the idea that these 'Dharma' people might not actually remember any of them because they don't share the same past before 1977. Both timelines have their own different histories....

Another point against the shared past theory is Roger's talk with Ben. From it, it didn't seem that Ben had ever been shot or having been assimilated by the Others. It seemed that they had had a nice time with Dharma, so good actually, that he wished they had never left. That even suggests that the island wasn't in any imminent danger when they left, meaning that the Incident didn't sink the island, at least not right away....

In the alternate universe, NONE of the events involving the losties that we have seen depicted up until the end of season 5 ever happened.

Oceanic 816 never crashed hence none of the other stuff, including the Losties time travelling, ever happened.
It's possible that they did happen in both realities. If the past is shared up to the moment of the Incident, that means that in the LA timelines past, people from another reality -- the Island reality -- appeared in 1974 and 1977, did some stuff, then vanished at the Incident.

I didn't buy this prior to this week but I'm starting to be swayed.

I believe that, being a scientist interested in time travel, he would be working somewhere else, instead of a museum...Maybe some kind of private funded project ala Dharma....
If this Chang remembers Sawyer, sure he hasn't said a word to him or his son about it.....
That is why I am leaning to the idea that these 'Dharma' people might not actually remember any of them because they don't share the same past before 1977. Both timelines have their own different histories....

Another point against the shared past theory is Roger's talk with Ben. From it, it didn't seem that Ben had ever been shot or having been assimilated by the Others. It seemed that they had had a nice time with Dharma, so good actually, that he wished they had never left. That even suggests that the island wasn't in any imminent danger when they left, meaning that the Incident didn't sink the island, at least not right away....

I'm definitely assuming the shared history theory, which not everyone is. I'll be dissapointed if the history isn't shared. So I'll argue a lil for it here.

The museum could easily be a Dharma front.

As far as Roger's talk with Ben, Roger seems like the sort of person who is gonna be melancholy no matter what happens (in blunt terms, he's about as miserable an *** in LA as he was on the island). Ben could still have gotten shot, been taken to the others, been taken to the spring, healed, and then still gotten off the island while it was sinking -- by, say, running back to his father and getting on the sub (somehow or other). His father doesn't blame those bad events on the Dharma people, but on the Others, so he could still have fond memories of the DI itself.

This also dawned on me yesterday. Got a pretty good discussion Here. (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=122756)

I had forgotten that he should know Hurley. He would definitely recognize him from his Mr. Cluck's TV commercials.

This also dawned on me yesterday. Got a pretty good discussion Here. (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=122756)

I had forgotten that he should know Hurley. He would definitely recognize him from his Mr. Cluck's TV commercials.

Thanks. I definitely started thinking about this because of your thread, and created my own just to get all my thoughts in one place.

It would be funny if, when we see Dr. Chang, he's eating some Mr. Cluck's take out.

I'm definitely assuming the shared history theory, which not everyone is. I'll be dissapointed if the history isn't shared. So I'll argue a lil for it here.

The museum could easily be a Dharma front.

As far as Roger's talk with Ben, Roger seems like the sort of person who is gonna be melancholy no matter what happens (in blunt terms, he's about as miserable an *** in LA as he was on the island). Ben could still have gotten shot, been taken to the others, been taken to the spring, healed, and then still gotten off the island while it was sinking -- by, say, running back to his father and getting on the sub (somehow or other). His father doesn't blame those bad events on the Dharma people, but on the Others, so he could still have fond memories of the DI itself.

Same argument in a few other threads. There is no way Roger Linus wishes he stayed, if its the same past where his son was shot. It makes no sense and is too much of a reach. My feeling is Roger Linus's reminiscence was a big reveal that the island history is not shared in that timeline.
Then again I may be wrong:rolleyes:

...There is no way Roger Linus wishes he stayed, if its the same past where his son was shot. It makes no sense and is too much of a reach. My feeling is Roger Linus's reminiscence was a big reveal that the island history is not shared in that timeline....

Quite right. That, along with the changes in Sawyer, and Jack having a kid, point to a much different past.

Quite right. That, along with the changes in Sawyer, and Jack having a kid, point to a much different past.


I guess I'm fighting an uphill battle here. Somehow I thought things being different offf the island wouldn't be problematic, and that what was shared was the history on the island. Now I'm less sure.

STILL, if the island history isn't shared, this would mean Ben's father was happy as a janitor? Or wasn't a janitor (workman)?

Quite right. That, along with the changes in Sawyer, and Jack having a kid, point to a much different past.
I agree that Roger may have blown a hole in this theory. But I don't see how Jack having a kid affects it. The split would be in 1977. Jack would be in his early teens at the oldest. Sawyer's not all that different, and his past before 1977 seems to be the same.

Roger wishing they hadn't left isn't exactly in opposition to what we saw before. He may have left because he hated being a janitor and now regrets it because Ben suffered for it. Where everything falls apart though is, yeah, the whole son getting shot thing.

I agree that Roger may have blown a hole in this theory. But I don't see how Jack having a kid affects it. The split would be in 1977. Jack would be in his early teens at the oldest. Sawyer's not all that different, and his past before 1977 seems to be the same.

Roger wishing they hadn't left isn't exactly in opposition to what we saw before. He may have left because he hated being a janitor and now regrets it because Ben suffered for it. Where everything falls apart though is, yeah, the whole son getting shot thing.

It needs some explanation, but it is possible Ben got shot, got healed by the others, and still got off the island.

According to Alpert, Ben wouldn't remember what happened. Perhaps, after being healed, Ben woke up surrounded by the others, freaked out (because he didn't remember), and ran back to his father.

It needs some explanation, but it is possible Ben got shot, got healed by the others, and still got off the island.

According to Alpert, Ben wouldn't remember what happened. Perhaps, after being healed, Ben woke up surrounded by the others, freaked out (because he didn't remember), and ran back to his father.
Ben had already woken up and still didn't want to be with his father.
"Dead is Dead"
[Switch to the man entering a yurt. He stops and looks a young boy lying on a cot. The boy awakens and slowly turns he head to look at the man. He takes a stool and sits next to the boy.]
MAN: Hello Benjamin.
YOUNG BEN: What happened?
MAN: You were injured.
YOUNG BEN: How?
MAN: You don't remember.
YOUNG BEN: Where am I?
MAN: You're among friends. We're going to take care of you.
YOUNG BEN: My dad. Is he here?
MAN: You'll be back to him soon enough.
YOUNG BEN: No. No, I don't want to go…
[Ben tries to sit up. A pain in his chest and coughs stops him. He slowly lies back.]
MAN: Shhh. Okay, Easy, easy
YOUNG BEN: [in pain] I don't wanna go back. I want to stay. I want to be one of you.
MAN: [smiles] Just because you are living with them doesn't mean you can't be one of us. You should be dead Benjamin. But this island, [pause] it saved your life.
YOUNG BEN: Who are you?
MAN: I'm Charles. Charles Widmore.

Ben had already woken up and still didn't want to be with his father.
"Dead is Dead"

Okay, but the more important point is that he could have gone right back to DI after being healed. Then the incident happens, the island starts sinking, then everyone is evacuated.

I guess I'm fighting an uphill battle here. Somehow I thought things being different offf the island wouldn't be problematic, and that what was shared was the history on the island. Now I'm less sure.I agree with your first instinct. There's a lot pointing to the histories being shared up till the Incident.

This thread is extremely similiar to and there are a lot of interesting posts there as well. Maybe you should ask that it be merged

Roger wishing they hadn't left isn't exactly in opposition to what we saw before. He may have left because he hated being a janitor and now regrets it because Ben suffered for it.
I agree that Roger's regrets have to do with Ben's position in the outside world. The comment comes during a conversation about Ben's job.

BEN: I have a doctorate in modern Eurpoean history, and yet I'm babysitting burnouts in detention...

BEN: And the worst of it is, as I look out at those ingrates that I'm tasked with watching, I can't help thinking that maybe I'm more a loser than any of them.

ROGER: This isn't the life I wanted for you, Ben. I wanted so much more.

ROGER: That's why I signed up for that damn Dharma Initiative and took you to the island, and... they were decent people. Smarter than I'll ever be. Imagine how different our lives would have been if we'd stayed.

BEN: Yes, we'd have both lived happily ever after...

ROGER: No, I'm serious, Ben! Who knows what you would have become?

IMO this is not a conversation about how wonderful life on the Island was, reminiscing about good old Island days, or wishing they could go back. For me this conversation about Ben and how his "loser" life has turned out.

Roger is saying he feels badly that Ben was smart enough and worked hard enough to get the title of Dr., yet it has gotten him nowhere. A title with no power....just like Napolean on the Island of Elba.

Roger says, this (off Island ALT) life is not the one he wanted for Ben and that the the Dharma people were decent and smart. Ben sarcastically say they would have " lived happily ever after" to which Roger seriously replies "Who knows what you would have become?"...not "Who knows how happy we'd have been."


Ben had already woken up and still didn't want to be with his father. "Dead is Dead"But they did return Ben and told him to wait patiently to become an Other.

Okay, but the more important point is that he could have gone right back to DI after being healed. Then the incident happens, the island starts sinking, then everyone is evacuated.
I'm still wondering how long it took for the Island to completely submerge.

All along, I've been (and still am) of the opinion that the one incontrovertible fact about this alt timeline is that 815 didn't crash on Sept 22, 2004. The cause looks like Jughead but it could be anything. But the one thing which is absolutely definitely true is that in the alt world, 815 doesn't crash - meaning that nothing the Losties ever did on the island ever happened. So I can't imagine for a second that Ben ever got shot by Sayid (not possible because Sayid was never there) - and Dr Chang certainly won't remember James, Miles or Hurley because they were never there.

There are all kinds of other implications of them not being there - as other people have mentioned in other threads, stuff like Charlotte's body not being left behind, like Alpert never visiting Locke as a baby, like that rope never being left in the ground by Sawyer (pointing to the pocket of exotic matter underground, and I remember this time last year so many people wondering if that's what started the whole thing). When you think it all through logically, starting from the question "What if the plane didn't crash?" it doesn't make sense that the timeline just split in 1977 and that everything after that was different and everything before it was the same. Things would have been very different, starting from statue times at the latest.

Having said all this, the idea that Dr Chang is actually somehow watching Sawyer because of some memory of him and how he might be connected to the island is a really cool idea. Not just him but maybe Charlotte too. We know very well that in our original timeline, both Miles and Charlotte were born on the island. In the ATL, Dharma definitely existed, the island sank, Ben & Roger were definitely there, so it looks like Chang, Miles and Charlotte were all there too. In our world, Charlotte was hell bent on looking for clues about her childhood. And in the alt world there's obviously still some kind of connection between these people - three people who were definitely on the island at some time in whatever reality - so maybe there's something in it. Maybe even if 815 never crashed, there's some weirdness which means that the Losties still showed up somehow?

OK, my brain has fried itself now, bye

But they did return Ben and told him to wait patiently to become an Other.

In the Original Tmeline we know that happened but we don't know what happened in the FS.

ROGER: This isn't the life I wanted for you, Ben. I wanted so much more.

ROGER: That's why I signed up for that damn Dharma Initiative and took you to the island, and... they were decent people. Smarter than I'll ever be. Imagine how different our lives would have been if we'd stayed.

BEN: Yes, we'd have both lived happily ever after...

ROGER: No, I'm serious, Ben! Who knows what you would have become?

AND in the Reality we saw, Ben DIED. And was resurrected. I would think that memory would be burned into Roger's head more than any other. It just seems like a stretch to think that that would not be the biggest memory you would have.. A True life changing event..... He just discounts it as a bad day?
ROGER to BEN : -- Things were great back then Ben, other than the destruction of the village and the interlopers from the future causing your death...... We should of stayed.

You didn't see Ben die and either did Roger. Nobody said he actually died. Juliet had him stabilized, but in danger. That's when Kate took off with him.

You didn't see Ben die and either did Roger. Nobody said he actually died. Juliet had him stabilized, but in danger. That's when Kate took off with him.
He was in a lot more than danger..
"Whatever Happened, Happened"
JULIET: He is stable now. But I can't um, I can't fix it.
KATE: What about the sub? I mean can we take him somewhere?
JULIET: No. It's gone. Won't be back for a couple months.
KATE: But he can't die, right?
JULIET: He is going to die. He is in a medical situation that is not resolvable.

the one incontrovertible fact about this alt timeline is that 815 didn't crash on Sept 22, 2004. .... But the one thing which is absolutely definitely true is that in the alt world, 815 doesn't crash - meaning that nothing the Losties ever did on the island ever happened.

Bingo Bango Bongo. How in the flash sideways could Locke meet Richard in 1954, or Sayid shoot Ben in 1977 if the 815ers never landed on the island, turned a wheel and started time traveling?

It would make no sense for flash sideways Chang to have seen time travelers. Because the time travelers we know of originated from the island.

Bingo Bango Bongo. How in the flash sideways could Locke meet Richard in 1954, or Sayid shoot Ben in 1977 if the 815ers never landed on the island, turned a wheel and started time traveling?

It would make no sense for flash sideways Chang to have seen time travelers. Because the time travelers we know of originated from the island.

Well said!!

Somehow people are reading into Roger's comments far more than I ever did. I don't see any major inconsistency. I see a sub-par father trying to make lame excuses for the unhappiness of his son.
100%
Bingo Bango Bongo. How in the flash sideways could Locke meet Richard in 1954, or Sayid shoot Ben in 1977 if the 815ers never landed on the island, turned a wheel and started time traveling?

It would make no sense for flash sideways Chang to have seen time travelers. Because the time travelers we know of originated from the island.

Slow down hotshot, you're just begging the question. It is possible if they shared the same history before the incident.

Bingo Bango Bongo. How in the flash sideways could Locke meet Richard in 1954, or Sayid shoot Ben in 1977 if the 815ers never landed on the island, turned a wheel and started time traveling? .
When Locke met Richard in 1954, he was a Time Traveler from another universe's 2004. When Sayid shot Ben, Sayid was a Time Traveler from another universe's 2004. In the ORIGINAL 2004, 815 crashed, the FDW was turned, etc. etc. and people from the ORIGINAL 2004, went Time Traveling to pre-Incident times before there was an ALT or ORIGINAL.

It would make no sense for flash sideways Chang to have seen time travelers. Because the time travelers we know of originated from the island.
Correct. They originated on the Post-Split ORIGINAL Island in ORIGINAL Post-Split 2004. Then they Time Traveled backwards to Pre-Split times. The ORIGINAL Post-Split Time Travelers caused the split and went back to Post-Split ORIGINAL 2007.



Slow down hotshot, you're just begging the question. It is possible if they shared the same history before the incident.Agreed.

.
When Locke met Richard in 1954, he was a Time Traveler from another universe's 2004. When Sayid shot Ben, Sayid was a Time Traveler from another universe's 2004. In the ORIGINAL 2004, 815 crashed, the FDW was turned, etc. etc. and people from the ORIGINAL 2004, went Time Traveling to pre-Incident times before there was an ALT or ORIGINAL.
Correct. They originated on the Post-Split ORIGINAL Island in ORIGINAL Post-Split 2004. Then they Time Traveled backwards to Pre-Split times. The ORIGINAL Post-Split Time Travelers caused the split and went back to Post-Split ORIGINAL 2007.Agreed.
You again are posting this as a fact and not posting it as what you think happened.
People are entitled to post their opinions as to what they think happened without you coming on and telling them that what they think is wrong because your thinking is the only thing that is right. :rolleyes:

Then they Time Traveled backwards to *(what was IMO) Pre-Split times. The ORIGINAL Post-Split Time Travelers *(IMO) caused the split and went back to Post-Split ORIGINAL 2007.

The previous post ended with a question mark:
How in the flash sideways could Locke meet Richard in 1954, or Sayid shoot Ben in 1977 if the 815ers never landed on the island, turned a wheel and started time traveling?

How in the flash sideways could Locke meet Richard in 1954, or Sayid shoot Ben in 1977 if the 815ers never landed on the island, turned a wheel and started time traveling?
IDT answering is telling someone they are wrong.

I think we should make a list of all changes observed or speculated at in the alt universe. This way we can figure out who is rate with this. At first I was sold on 1977 being the split, now, not so sure.

I am starting to ditch the Incident as the cause of the 'split'... This is LOST and there might be a huge twist coming regarding what spawn the alt universe. At first glance, YES, it seems that when Juliet detonated the bomb, the other universe was born to prevent paradoxes, bla bla bla.

However, Maculate Initiative, suggested in another thread that something else happened at exactly the same 'time' for US the viewers: Jacob's death. So it is possible that his death could have been what created or let the other universe be. MiB knew that and that is why he was after Jacob. This other universe is MiB's 'world'....while the one we've been watching is Jacob's.

At the end, I think it will be up to the losties (The Candidate) to decide which Universe will prevail....

What's the official word on the Incident causing the split? Wasn't this addressed by a podcast at some point?

I am starting to ditch the Incident as the cause of the 'split'... This is LOST and there might be a huge twist coming regarding what spawn the alt universe. At first glance, YES, it seems that when Juliet detonated the bomb, the other universe was born to prevent paradoxes, bla bla bla.

However, Maculate Initiative, suggested in another thread that something else happened at exactly the same 'time' for US the viewers: Jacob's death. So it is possible that his death could have been what created or let the other universe be. MiB knew that and that is why he was after Jacob. This other universe is MiB's 'world'....while the one we've been watching is Jacob's.

At the end, I think it will be up to the losties (The Candidate) to decide which Universe will prevail....

Another theory I've seen here is that when Richard took Eloise away, he had her turn the donkey wheel so she'd be off the island when the bomb went, and that could at least be why the Losties returned.
100%
Bingo Bango Bongo. How in the flash sideways could Locke meet Richard in 1954, or Sayid shoot Ben in 1977 if the 815ers never landed on the island, turned a wheel and started time traveling?

It would make no sense for flash sideways Chang to have seen time travelers. Because the time travelers we know of originated from the island.

There are a number of theories about time travel and how such paradoxes are resolved. One is the Novikov self-consistency principle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle), best known to us as Whatever Happened Happened. Another is the many-worlds interpretation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Many-worlds_interpretation), which pretty much describes what we're talking about here. Both are completely theoretical and thus equally valid.

Hopefully it is a combination of the 2 theories. The Multiple Universe theory, especially if unlimited parallels, seems like a bit of a cop-out to me. It can explain everything. Too much like using Magic as an answer...

Ethan is still around in the AU/FS and his name is Goodspeed, not Rom. This could mean that he was still born on the Island (days before the incident). That his mothers previous husband was still murdered (or she hooked up with Horace under ... different circumstances in which the Losties "dont" rescue his mother from being murdered by the others).

IF we see Dr.Chang again, and IF we see his disfigured arm, that would imply that he met the Losties because it is implied in both scenarios of the incident that the losties played a role in causing it. Im basing this on what we saw from Season 5, and what Richard told us last season when he says "I saw them all die" (either Richard is lying, or he actualy saw a realitiy in which the time traveling Losties actualy caused the incident and were ... killed shortly after?).

Ethan is still around in the AU/FS and his name is Goodspeed, not Rom. This could mean that he was still born on the Island (days before the incident). That his mothers previous husband was still murdered (or she hooked up with Horace under ... different circumstances in which the Losties "dont" rescue his mother from being murdered by the others).

IF we see Dr.Chang again, and IF we see his disfigured arm, that would imply that he met the Losties because it is implied in both scenarios of the incident that the losties played a role in causing it. Im basing this on what we saw from Season 5, and what Richard told us last season when he says "I saw them all die" (either Richard is lying, or he actualy saw a realitiy in which the time traveling Losties actualy caused the incident and were ... killed shortly after?).

for now, I would assume that 'I watched them all die' means their corpses weren't to be found anywhere right after the explosion.

But, from what I recall, Chang was right there also when the Incident happened and he didn't 'die', so I am actually very curious to hear Richard's version of the story....

These are some things that only slowly dawned on me.

We know that Dr. Chang made it off the island, he is Charlotte's boss at some museum. Since Sawyer and Miles are partners, it is a good bet that Dr. Chang has met Sawyer and would recognize him from the Island (in some previous episode Dr. Chang references LaFleur, so he definitely knows Sawyer). More immediately, Dr. Chang would recognize his own son (as he grew up in LA) from the island, and so he knows that time travelling has gone on.

Dr. Chang must be very interested in the fact that his own son, and Sawyer, have done some time travelling. Presumably he spends a lot of time trying to figure out how it happened (which may also explain why he works in a museum, and not at a university, because even by academic standards such interests would be deemed hairball).

Furthermore, he may even be assuming (incorrectly!) that he must figure out a way to send his son (and Sawyer) back to the 1970s (for if he doesn't (he might think) then he may never be warned by his son to get everyone off the island, and that might upset the time/space continuum).

Just needed to get that off my chest. Any other thoughts?

EDIT: One more piece of knowledge: Dr. Chang must also remember Hurley (if not because of his famous garlic mayo, because he tells Chang "alright dude, we're from the future"). And, He may have seen Hurley on TV from when he won the lottery -- so he may also be keeping track of Hurley.

This is all assuming that Dr. Chang is actually who Miles meant went he he referred to Charlotte working with his 'dad'.

Miles still has the last name of Straume in the LA X timeline. Unfortunately I can't find a screencap of it on "Lost Photo Gallery" but it's clearly visible as a sign on his desk when Sawyer and Miles are having the discussion about the blind date.

ETA: Dark didn't have any screencaps of Miles's desk either, only Sawyer's desk.

This is all assuming that Dr. Chang is actually who Miles meant went he he referred to Charlotte working with his 'dad'.

Miles still has the last name of Straume in the LA X timeline. Unfortunately I can't find a screencap of it on "Lost Photo Gallery" but it's clearly visible as a sign on his desk when Sawyer and Miles are having the discussion about the blind date.

ETA: Dark didn't have any screencaps of Miles's desk either, only Sawyer's desk.

well, if the 1977 shared past theory is right, it means that Chang has to be Miles' dad because he was conceived and born BEFORE 1977. The only way your theory might work is if he has some kind of step father in the alt universe

well, if the 1977 shared past theory is right, it means that Chang has to be Miles' dad because he was conceived and born BEFORE 1977. The only way your theory might work is if he has some kind of step father in the alt universe

I wasn't questioning Chang being his actual father that helped conceive Miles, just the 'dad' Miles referred to at the museum.

I wasn't questioning Chang being his actual father that helped conceive Miles, just the 'dad' Miles referred to at the museum.

well, it is possible. We never saw his 'dad' in the original...But I am pretty sure it is Dr. Chang, just for shocking effect and maybe to debunk or not the shared past theory....;)

well, it is possible. We never saw his 'dad' in the original...But I am pretty sure it is Dr. Chang, just for shocking effect and maybe to debunk or not the shared past theory....;)

You're right, it certainly is possible. I think the 'shared past' theory is the most likely too, but my one hang up is the same as others, that being Ben's father's 'fondness' of the DI. That part just doesn't seem very logical.

I also do not believe the bomb went off in 77. I believe The Swan was filled with concrete to contain Jughead. Remember, Daniel said to bury it in concrete. Also, Sayid when looking under The Swan said he had only seen concrete that thick one other time, at Chernobyl.

I think the numbers prevented the energy from detonating Jughead...the failsafe allowed Jughead to fall into a wormhole.. I think the uncertainty of what would happen if Jughead fell in a wormhole created the need for the number and protocol. But I think they figured dumping it in a wormhold might be safer than letting it explode on the island and possibly open some giant black hole on earth or something. I believe the bomb fell through the wormhole and detonated on the island at some time perhaps in the early 80's of the alternate timeline. Leaving enough time for Dharma to do it's thing and people like Miles, Piere, Rogert, Ben, Charlotte etc. leave the island safely and return to LA to live their lives. The detonation sank the island.

This is a great thread, I have not posted in sometime as everything seems to be a bit tough to figure out these days.

I kind of think that the timeline changed, split or whatever at the earliest point Sawyer and Co. time traveled back and interacted with people. I guess this would be in the 1950s. To make this short, at that point the universe had to course correct as Dan spoke to his mother but Dan was not even close top being born yet. At that point the universe course corrected and split.

Just my 2 cents...

I also do not believe the bomb went off in 77. I believe The Swan was filled with concrete to contain Jughead. Remember, Daniel said to bury it in concrete. Also, Sayid when looking under The Swan said he had only seen concrete that thick one other time, at Chernobyl.

I think the numbers prevented the energy from detonating Jughead...the failsafe allowed Jughead to fall into a wormhole.. I think the uncertainty of what would happen if Jughead fell in a wormhole created the need for the number and protocol. But I think they figured dumping it in a wormhold might be safer than letting it explode on the island and possibly open some giant black hole on earth or something. I believe the bomb fell through the wormhole and detonated on the island at some time perhaps in the early 80's of the alternate timeline. Leaving enough time for Dharma to do it's thing and people like Miles, Piere, Rogert, Ben, Charlotte etc. leave the island safely and return to LA to live their lives. The detonation sank the island.
Good stuff.
The apparent inability of the losties to kill themselves (as demonstrated by Jack and Richard) would also prevent the explosion.

Good stuff.
The apparent inability of the losties to kill themselves (as demonstrated by Jack and Richard) would also prevent the explosion.

but the one who triggered the bomb was Juliet, not one of teh touched ones.

That, however, might explain why the bomb didn't explode when JACK droped it....;)

but the one who triggered the bomb was Juliet, not one of teh touched ones.

That, however, might explain why the bomb didn't explode when JACK droped it....;)

Yea ... My thinking is that Jack or other candidates were within range. Just like the dynamite event with Richard.

but the one who triggered the bomb was Juliet, not one of teh touched ones.

That, however, might explain why the bomb didn't explode when JACK droped it....;)
Wow! I like that a lot. I love that certain things we weren't even really questioning are getting subtle answers.

However, Maculate Initiative, suggested in another thread that something else happened at exactly the same 'time' for US the viewers: Jacob's death. So it is possible that his death could have been what created or let the other universe be..
I think I might accept there being some final ambiguity as to Jacob's death contributing to the split along with the Incident (of course). As many things seem to play on the levels of fantasy, philosophy and science, this could be one.

Wow! I like that a lot. I love that certain things we weren't even really questioning are getting subtle answers.

Yeah, I hadn't even thought about it until I replied steevo! I think it does make pretty good sense. Now imagine how things might have happened hadn't Juliet time traveled along with the touched ones....
No Incident, no alt timeline (IF the Incident caused it;), etc...
Like you can see the importance of the whole chain of events that lead them to that moment:

infertilty problems, Juliet coming to the island, Juliet becoming a Lostie, Ben not letting her go until she was done, freighter, Ben turning the wheel, time travel, Locke stopping the time skipping, Sawyer convincing Juliet to stay on the island, Juliet's believing Jack's plan, Juliet' s love for Sawyer

Simply brilliant...really....

It took an UNTOUCHED one to make things happen....That makes you wonder about the whole Jacob's touch as a gift being a curse of a blessing....

Wow I just have to say this thread blew my mind and all of my theorys too.

I like that the bomb would have not been burried if Daniel didnt go back to the past. And Daniel would have not gone into the past if the plane didnt crash. Maybe not burying it caused a lot of the changes that we dont know about why yet, that caused the island to sink between the 50's and around when Roger and Ben left.

Maybe not burying it caused a lot of the changes that we dont know about why yet, that caused the island to sink between the 50's and around when Roger and Ben left.
Ben wasn't born until the 60's.

In the FS Chang never met LaFleur because Ben never grew up on the Island, hens he never turned the FDW, hens the time travelers never time traveled, hence LaFleur never became the sheriff, hens Chang never met LaFleur or Miles, or Daniel, hence Daniel never warned Chang about the Orchid setting the Swan off, hens DHARMA was forced to evacuate the Island when the Swan blew up and sank the Island.

That is how things worked out in the FS without Jacob's machinations.

You throw in Jacob's machinations, you get the LOST we've been watching for the last 5 years.