I finally got one right! :biggrin:

So it was a big wave that launched the black rock into the middle of the island and destroyed the statue?? did i see that right?

didn't look like a tsunami or a hurricane, it was more like a bad storm, correct?

Well, you can't really see the difference between a hurricane and a "bad storm" from within. I get the idea it was a massive storm surge that did it.

Could have been Smokey, too, though, I suppose. It would have set him up to manipulate someone into doing his will.

That's what I've always assumed happened. A big storm crashed it slightly inland. We've never seen an aerial shot or anything, so there's no way to know exactly how far inland it is.

Well, you can't really see the difference between a hurricane and a "bad storm" from within. I get the idea it was a massive storm surge that did it.

Could have been Smokey, too, though, I suppose. It would have set him up to manipulate someone into doing his will.

right... i was wondering this too. i mean, what are the odds that the ship would smash right into the statue where jacob lives?

if MiB can unlock Ben's shackle telekinetically, maybe we could influence the direction of a wave as well?? was this an attempt to kill jacob?

The BR destroying the statue makes little sense to me....

I mean, wood vs. stone and wood wins? Really?

I think Jacob 'pulled' it in that far.

Um, I think the biggest issue here is that we saw the black rock in daylight in last season's finale while Jacob and man in black are talking. Or are we supposed to "believe" that was some other ship?

But yeah, ridiculous either way.

How the hell could a wooden boat take down a stone statue that is a bazillion feet tall? And not have a scratch? I really would like to think that it was only the wave that took down the statue, and not the Black Rock, but they showed the boat almost hitting the head of the statue.

Yea...makes no sense.

and how did it get so far into the Jungle, from the coast???? Are there any maps showing where is the BR in relation to the statue????

Besides, wouldn't the impact have stop the inertia of the ship's movement??

The real question is where did all those pieces go, that was a big statue.

Maybe it became ash :biggrin:

How the hell could a wooden boat take down a stone statue that is a bazillion feet tall? And not have a scratch? I really would like to think that it was only the wave that took down the statue, and not the Black Rock, but they showed the boat almost hitting the head of the statue.

Actually, the wave would have knocked it over. The boat likely made little difference.

Um, I think the biggest issue here is that we saw the black rock in daylight in last season's finale while Jacob and man in black are talking. Or are we supposed to "believe" that was some other ship?Why should we believe it was the Black Rock at the end of S5? I mean, sure, we did, because we had seen the Black Rock on the island. But before the advent of motor vessels and submarines and airplanes and such, anyone who came to the island would have come by sailing ship. And we heard tonight that others had been brought to the island, so why would it be ridiculous for it to have been a different ship?

How the hell could a wooden boat take down a stone statue that is a bazillion feet tall? And not have a scratch? I really would like to think that it was only the wave that took down the statue, and not the Black Rock, but they showed the boat almost hitting the head of the statue.Makes me think all the more that Smokey brought the ship to the middle of the island, and that he caused ship and wave to topple the statue, perhaps trying to kill Jacob, or at least making a show of it. But where do you get that the Black Rock did not "have a scratch?" We've only seen her stern. The entire bow could have been crushed. And still there were survivors...but then, flight 815 broke into three pieces in midair and fell to the ground, but there were still survivors.

What I was wondering is, what happened to the rest of the statue? Wouldn't large pieces of stone statue have been scattered around the area for years to come?

The real question is where did all those pieces go, that was a big statue.

Maybe it became ash :biggrin:

They were in the ocean, maybe we can put that down to erosion etc lets face it, if a wooden ship can smash the statue into so many pieces it wont take long to disappear.

Seriously, its nice to connect up the story like they did but wooden ship vs big stone statue. Doesn't make any sense at all.

They were in the ocean, maybe we can put that down to erosion etc lets face it, if a wooden ship can smash the statue into so many pieces it wont take long to disappear.

Seriously, its nice to connect up the story like they did but wooden ship vs big stone statue. Doesn't make any sense at all.

Yeah..I had to tranquilize my physics side of my brain for that part..but hey, I can suspend disbelief with the best of them if the story is good enough, and boy was it.

The statue is made of some styrofoam and the rest CGI. There's your answer.

This is bull puckey. A stone statue gets shattered by a wooden ship? More likely the ship would be smashed into matchsticks. And how did the ship get dragged so far inland?

The statue is made of some styrofoam and the rest CGI. There's your answer.


If you got that info from a spoiler, you should spoiler font it.

Ok, a man can turn into a smoke monster-not a problem, but it is totally unbelievable that a ship can destroy a statue? :rolleyes:

A huge wooden ship hurled at a tall, slim, stone statue by a crazy ocean storm is going to snap it in two no problem.

A huge wooden ship hurled at a tall, slim, stone statue by a crazy ocean storm is going to snap it in two no problem.


It would snap the legs, sure, but it wouldn't pulverize the statue...so where's the statue? It should be lying around the beach somewhere, or just in the jungle, chillin, all planet of the apes like.

A huge wooden ship hurled at a tall, slim, stone statue by a crazy ocean storm is going to snap it in two no problem.

My thoughts, exactly. The ship was just along for the ride. The tsunami was what did the damage. It took the ship inland and as the back wash water rushed back it pulled the remaining pieces back into the ocean....tsunamis 101 :cool:

Wasn't the boat full of dynamite? :p

Wasn't the boat full of dynamite? :p

Yeah it had some and still did have some years and years later when 815 crashed. If it had blown I think the black rock would of been ash and Richard would of never stepped foot on the island.

Jacob went all Poseidon on it. There's your explanation. As close as we're going to get.

disclaimer: I'm rather proud of the Poseidon line.

The statue has also been standing for centuries (assuming it's Egyptian) and has been exposed to the elements, so it's undoubtedly weakened. I don't think a wooden ship by itself could knock it down, but a ship riding a powerful wave/tsunami definitely could. Water is incredibly powerful.

And we did see pieces of the statue lying around on the beach.

Maybe Jocob was underestimating his power. He does some magic to get the Blackrock to come to the island and it crashed into his freaking house !!!!!

But on the real note it was a dumb scene,

Jacob went all Poseidon on it. There's your explanation. As close as we're going to get.

disclaimer: I'm rather proud of the Poseidon line.

I would be too, but you would have gotten bonus points if you'd used the familiar conjugation: Broseidon.

S5 boat was not the black rock. Here's why...

1. Season 5 finale MIB and Jacob talk casually about how MIB wants to kill jacob...leading me to believe that this has been discussed a lot between them.
2. After MIB sends Richard to kill jacob (in tonight's epi) Jacob seems surprised that MIB tried to kill him...leading me to believe that they had never talked about it beore...placing these events sometime before MIB and Jacob sat on the beach at the end of season 5 looking out at the ship.

I would be too, but you would have gotten bonus points if you'd used the familiar conjugation: Broseidon.
D'oh. I plead newbie ignorance. I will endeavour to work that into the mix. Thank for the head's up!

the statue is made of the same material as the lighthouse: papier machê. :rolleyes:

S5 boat was not the black rock. Here's why...

1. Season 5 finale MIB and Jacob talk casually about how MIB wants to kill jacob...leading me to believe that this has been discussed a lot between them.
2. After MIB sends Richard to kill jacob (in tonight's epi) Jacob seems surprised that MIB tried to kill him...leading me to believe that they had never talked about it beore...placing these events sometime before MIB and Jacob sat on the beach at the end of season 5 looking out at the ship.

Yeah that's being covered at length in the What was the ship in the Incident thread.

I also thought it was rather odd that the black rock took down the statue and somehow did not smash into splinters.I think they needed a quick and easy way to explain what happened to the statue so they threw this in.

The part that was even stranger to me was that Jacob admitted to bringing Richard here,so why would be smash the boat into his own home?Jacob's been bringing people here for a long time so why did this time go so badly and destroy the statue.Was there some reason he'd want it destroyed?

If Black Rock smashing the statue is the story they want to go with,I'll accept it even though it is pretty much impossible.I still don't believe Desmond brought down the plane by missing the button,I still say that was also an act of Jacob.I think he brought the plane down just like he brought in this ship.

What also strikes me as odd about Jacob bringing Black Rock to the island is that he never tried to make contact with Richard.He let MIB go out and manipulate Richard.Why does Jacob bring people here and then let his enemy get the first chance to win their trust?

It was nice to see what happened to the statue,even if it makes no sense.

Macainickle

Oh man, the boat going THAT high was ridiculous. I like the show, but come on. We're all adults here. We can admit when something is silly.

Yeah that's being covered at length in the What was the ship in the Incident thread.Here's a link to that thread (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=122920) so we can keep the topics distinct and separate.

I can somewhat force myself to think that the wave toppled the statue. But HOW IN JACOB'S NAME DID HE SURVIVE IN THAT THING WHEN THE WAVE HIT? Does Jacob becoming invulnerable when he is sleeping?

S5 boat was not the black rock. Here's why...

1. Season 5 finale MIB and Jacob talk casually about how MIB wants to kill jacob...leading me to believe that this has been discussed a lot between them.
2. After MIB sends Richard to kill jacob (in tonight's epi) Jacob seems surprised that MIB tried to kill him...leading me to believe that they had never talked about it beore...placing these events sometime before MIB and Jacob sat on the beach at the end of season 5 looking out at the ship.

Valid point, I buy that.

I can somewhat force myself to think that the wave toppled the statue. But HOW IN JACOB'S NAME DID HE SURVIVE IN THAT THING WHEN THE WAVE HIT? Does Jacob becoming invulnerable when he is sleeping?


His crib is in the base of the statue, yo?

Oh man, the boat going THAT high was ridiculous. I like the show, but come on. We're all adults here. We can admit when something is silly.


yet pushing a button to save the world is not silly:rolleyes:

His crib is in the base of the statue, yo?

I know that...but the wave should have drowned him when it passed over. Unless there is some crazy water physics I don't know where air pockets are formed.

yet pushing a button to save the world is not silly:rolleyes:
I keep seeing this logic brought up. The button had something to do with electromagnetic build-up. That was explained. We accept that part of the story because it has been built into it. We accept that the man in black can become smoke, because, well, he's the man in black, a creation of the creators.

But throw in something totally random, yes, it's silly.

If the Island was known for HUGE waves, then okay. Or if Jacob was known to control weather, use the force to lift objects, okay.

Not to burst any bubbles, but having a few things that are accepted because they are built into the story is acceptable. That's why people don't have a problem with them. It should be telling that when a group can accept some things on the internal show's logic but then dismiss others, maybe there's something valid to being said and shouldn't merely be swept aside condescendingly. The show is better than this.

This is what I meant when I said we might regret getting what we wish for, much like Richard.

The real answers are not going to be as satisfying as the ones we come up with ourselves. Mostly because the real answers operate in the realm of TV.

While I was watching the show I totally bought into it, but now that it's being analyzed, it does seem very silly, and like something they tossed together -- killing 2 birds with one stone: the black rock getting inland and the statue breaking.

Is this possible in real life? I'm not sure. Maybe, but it would have to be one helluva mega storm, not just your run of the mill rough seas... Nature is capable of some pretty crazy stuff, but I don't think what we saw constituted the largest tsunami ever.

This is what I meant when I said we might regret getting what we wish for, much like Richard.

The real answers are not going to be as satisfying as the ones we come up with ourselves. Mostly because the real answers operate in the realm of TV.

While I was watching the show I totally bought into it, but now that it's being analyzed, it does seem very silly, and like something they tossed together -- killing 2 birds with one stone: the black rock getting inland and the statue breaking.
Is this possible in real life? I'm not sure. Maybe, but it would have to be one helluva mega storm, not just your run of the mill rough seas... Nature is capable of some pretty crazy stuff, but I don't think what we saw constituted the largest tsunami ever.

I totally understand what you're saying. To the point where I think, in order to keep enjoying the show for what it is, I'm going to try to steer clear of scene analysis. Don't get me wrong. I'm all for critical thinking but TPTB provide an answer and all they get are rolled eyes and more questions.
I don't think it was the largest storm ever but it was large enough to put that ship in a collision course with the statue. My only thought about why it didn't get Jacob was that he was in the foot behind the sealed door at the time. However, that doesn't explain it all because some of the top was crumbled out of the foot when we saw it in 2007 scenes (S5 finale/S6 premiere). Did that happen at the same time or did erosion subsequently take place afterwards and that's why Jacob's abode was open to the skies?? We'll never know probably.
As far the pieces, I thought it was cool to see the head of the statue in the water off to the left of the statue and wondered if it was still there underwater or if it had drifted on out.

S5 boat was not the black rock. Here's why...

1. Season 5 finale MIB and Jacob talk casually about how MIB wants to kill jacob...leading me to believe that this has been discussed a lot between them.
2. After MIB sends Richard to kill jacob (in tonight's epi) Jacob seems surprised that MIB tried to kill him...leading me to believe that they had never talked about it beore...placing these events sometime before MIB and Jacob sat on the beach at the end of season 5 looking out at the ship.



As much as that would explain the continuity errors you are wrong about that. When they have the conversation at the end of season 5 the statue is completely intact. So the conversation between MIB and Jacob takes place before MIB tries to send Richard to kill Jacob.

The only thing I can assume logically is that the end of Season 5 pre-dates the Black Rock and they wanted us to think that it was in fact the Black Rock. Maybe those were people of the past that Jacob alluded too tonight. I really can't possibly think in a show this intricate that the Writers would make that huge of a blunder.

I assume the huge tidal wave combined with the huge boat knocked it down. I'll give them that the pieces of the statue were taken away by the tides. I'll buy that.
BTW, Jacob is THE DUDE. Bada$$. Thou shalt not mess with big J poppa or he'll drop ya!
I think I'll make that my sig.

Massive wood ship with a force strong enough can easily destroy a statue.

Massive wood ship with a force strong enough can easily destroy a statue.

Especially when it must be around 2000 + years old. Dont really know why people have an issue with this. The questions that should be asked should revolve around the discrepancy in weather with the first time we saw Jacob and the MIB. Was that in fact the black rock or just a random ship Jacob brought to the Island pre black rock.?

Anyone who doubts the power of a storm can look at pictures of Biloxi, MS after Hurricana Katrina...

I think the Island rose from the depths to "catch" the ship, It wasnt simply a "big storm".

I agree that the idea of the black rock being thrown inland by a huge wave and knocking the statue over is, well, far fetched. But this is how is going to be for the final 8 eppisodes.

For all the science and logic and "realism" that Darlton promised us the show would be based on, thereby making it a show that people like us could spend 6 years trying to figure out, well...once again it all falls by the wayside.

And I'm cool with that. As long as the final payoff is good, I'm all cool.

we'll never get all the answers in a way we want, and some of the answers we are going to be of the hand-to-forehead-and-then-pull-down-over-your-face-while-you-look-up-to-the-sky-and-say-"really guys, really?"-variety...but hey, thats life, amirite?

The BR destroying the statue makes little sense to me....

I mean, wood vs. stone and wood wins? Really?

I thought that scene was a bit too much!
What you're saying makes me think of Sawyer in season 1 trying to open the halliburton case...Michael suggests "impact velocity" :confused:

Originally Posted by BrothaJefe316 http://forum.thefuselage.com/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?p=2308072#post2308072)
The BR destroying the statue makes little sense to me....

I mean, wood vs. stone and wood wins? Really?

I figured it was the force of the tsunami that destroyed the statue. It was obviously powerful enough to carry the Black Rock quite some distance inland.

Some things on this show are just not believable, but we have to accept them anyhow. For example: Jack's chest compressions w/ his CPR have always been totally off!! (We laugh every single time he does them.)

I thought this was at least a great explanation of what happened to the statue. Although I agree, boat v. tawaret statue... boat wins? A bit ludicrous...unless it WAS a tsunami or somehthing? Maybe? I have always wondered what happened to the statue though...and now we know. So that's cool.

My issue: so Jacob beckoned the boat (or at least he says he did) and that's why they're there...I wonder why he would bring a boat and in the process destroy the majority of his 'house...' ??

I think we're just going to have to accept this and move on... and I am kind of okay with this b/c it was a great episode all in all.

How the hell could a wooden boat take down a stone statue that is a bazillion feet tall? And not have a scratch? I really would like to think that it was only the wave that took down the statue, and not the Black Rock, but they showed the boat almost hitting the head of the statue.

Underneath the wood boat was a huge wave of water. So the bottom of the boat could have skimmed over the head of the statue and the water could have taken out the rest of the stone. We've never seen the bottom of the boat to see if it was torn or intact because the jungle has had 100+ years to grow around the ship.

It would snap the legs, sure, but it wouldn't pulverize the statue...so where's the statue? It should be lying around the beach somewhere, or just in the jungle, chillin, all planet of the apes like.

I guess, to me, it just seems likely that all it would take is a few cracks (quite probable after that much force) for the whole thing to crumble into the ocean. How they ended up scattered a little further out, I dunno....but I'm cool with it. It looks really neat seeing the head out there.

As for Jacob's survival of the tidal wave... maybe he wasn't home at the time? Sometimes the simple explanation is best.

I do agree that it's not possible that a wooden boat take out a rock structure (not even if it was eroded or weakened) and remained practically intact. And they did intend for us to think that it was the boat and not the wave. There was a crash sound when the boat hit the statue.

And, even if the boat could destroy the statue, the laws of action and reaction say that the boat should have broken into pieces. Energy is never destroyed, it's transformed. The force that the ship carried because it was being propelled by the wave would be directed back at the boat in the moment of impact. So, in the world of physics, nope, that's not possible.

That said, I don't have a problem with it. Ever since we saw a column of murderous Black Smoke in S2, and Darlton said the answers would be grounded in science or pseudo science, I figured we were in for a few "non-traditional" explanations. After all, pseudo-science includes anything from psychic powers to zombies, ghosts, vampires, and aliens, so.....

And, even if the boat could destroy the statue, the laws of action and reaction say that the boat should have broken into pieces. Energy is never destroyed, it's transformed. The force that the ship carried because it was being propelled by the wave would be directed back at the boat in the moment of impact. So, in the world of physics, nope, that's not possible.

As EdMuse pointed out, who's to say the Black Rock isn't significantly damaged?? We've only ever seen the stern, after all.

I'm not sure why some people are stuck on this issue. I thought people would be complaining how the wave was so large, not that it wouldn't have broken an old statue. It's not like it was obliterated into dust, it just fell apart upon impact (from the ship and the waves) while the ship skidded on into the jungle towards its final resting place. Not only possible, but very plausible.

I may have missed it's mention here but the thing that bugs me is the last epi of S5 (Jacob and MiB on beach) the ship is sailing in on a perfectly calm sea. Of course what we saw last night was anything but a calm sea which leads me to believe the MiB became smoky and whipped up a sudden tsunami / hurricane. Since he didn't care for the humans coming to the island I assume his intent was to destroy the entire ship and all aboard. Makes sense (maybe).

As EdMuse pointed out, who's to say the Black Rock isn't significantly damaged?? We've only ever seen the stern, after all.

It shouldn't be significantly damaged it should be completely destroyed. If it was coming at the statue with enough force to break it, then that energy returns toward the boat after it hits the statue, and if the force destroyed the statue, it must destroy the ship.

The principle is that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So, if the boat carried enough energy to destroy the statue, upon impact, the equal and opposite reaction is that that energy destroys the ship.

Like I said, it's not possible according to current laws of physics, but I'm ok with that, anyway.

I'm not sure why some people are stuck on this issue. I thought people would be complaining how the wave was so large, not that it wouldn't have broken an old statue. It's not like it was obliterated into dust, it just fell apart upon impact (from the ship and the waves) while the ship skidded on into the jungle towards its final resting place. Not only possible, but very plausible.

I think people are stuck on this because it's one thing to ask you to accept something that hasn't been proven in the real world yet, like time traveling (there are theories, but as far as I know nobody has ever time traveled), and it's quite another to ask you to accept something that you know for sure can't really happen in the real world. Like Kate's trial.

I guess some people want the show to adhere to reality when it's not necessary to recur to other non-traditional explanations. For instance we know that people walk forward, one foot in front of the other. If we suddenly saw the Losties walking backward, just because, I think some people might have a problem with that.

I mean, some things are simple, and it's not necessary to create convoluted explanations for them. A tidal wave could destroy a statue, a ship couldn't. It would have been as easy as having a first wave take the statue out and a second one carry the ship inland. The fact that the ship impacted the statue and didn't get shredded to pieces is the problem. But I guess they thought it would be more dramatic if the ship destroyed the statue

I estimate that the base of the statue is 12-15 feet tall (and that might be low). The figure is about 17 times the height of the base. So the statue is about 215-265 feet tall (the height of a 21-26 story building). According to maps on Lostpedia, the Black Rock is located about 10 miles away from the statue (and you go over mountainous terrain to get from one to the other).

So... a wooden ship was magically lifted a couple hundred feet, hit solid stone, which it broke but somehow the ship remained in tact and landed 10 miles away?

These are the kind of ridiculous "answers" we have to look forward to?



By the way, from what I can tell looking online, the biggest waves in the Pacific and Atlantic are about 100 feet.

Those types of ships are not flimsy balsa wood. They are made to withstand a beating with massive hulls of thick cured beams. A massive wave with that ship at the front could easily demolish a stone statue (says me, a physicist). Countless stone architecture over the centuries has been demolished in tidal waves. They all have points of structural weakness, you don't need to pulverize every square inch. The ship could certainly have large segments intact depending on the impact point, the angle of impact, etc. Don't underestimate the power of water and the resilience of wood - even against stone. HOWEVER, a wave that massive would also have devastated the beach. So, a little suspension of disbelief is required (or a lot).

EDIT:
consider a two by four stretched across a road and whacked by an oncoming truck.
It doesn't pulverize the wood to molecules, just breaks it into large pieces where
the stress points gave way to release the inelastic energy tranfer. Even though the
truck is much heavier (and denser).

I may have missed it's mention here but the thing that bugs me is the last epi of S5 (Jacob and MiB on beach) the ship is sailing in on a perfectly calm sea. Of course what we saw last night was anything but a calm sea which leads me to believe the MiB became smoky and whipped up a sudden tsunami / hurricane. Since he didn't care for the humans coming to the island I assume his intent was to destroy the entire ship and all aboard. Makes sense (maybe).
A ship was on calm seas. I thin it's perfectly reasonable to assume that wasn't the Black Rock. Jacob had brought people to the Island before the Black Rock, and they wouldn't have been on airplanes.

That's what I've always assumed happened. A big storm crashed it slightly inland. We've never seen an aerial shot or anything, so there's no way to know exactly how far inland it is.

MiB told Richard to walk to the beach and turn due West to get to the statue. It seemed Richard made it to the beach rather quickly, as have most Losties that have come and gone from the Black Rock in the past. Not TOO far inland I'm assuming.

As EdMuse pointed out, who's to say the Black Rock isn't significantly damaged?? We've only ever seen the stern, after all.

I'm not sure why some people are stuck on this issue. I thought people would be complaining how the wave was so large, not that it wouldn't have broken an old statue. It's not like it was obliterated into dust, it just fell apart upon impact (from the ship and the waves) while the ship skidded on into the jungle towards its final resting place. Not only possible, but very plausible.


My big question in the OP (#2 here) was referring to what type of wave this was.

If it was a Tsunami, then I can see it throwing the BR 10 miles inland from the statue... considering the types of waves that hit Africa and Thailand in the big Tsunami a few years back. But if it was a hurricane or a "tidal wave" then I'm not so sure that could happen. But I may be wrong about that??

To me, it looked more like a bad storm, not hurricane level... then a huge wave just came out of nowhere and swept up the black rock.

So, was it some sort of supernatural intervention by MiB? or "the Island"? seems to be the case.

Also - the type of supernatural intervention that stopped the dynamite from exploding on Jack/Richard, jammed Michael's gun, and allowed Jack to survive the 815 crash and wake up in the jungle...may have kept the BR somewhat intact and allowd Richard to survive.


Those types of ships are not flimsy balsa wood. They are made to withstand a beating with massive hulls of thick cured beams. A massive wave with that ship at the front could easily demolish a stone statue (says me, a physicist). Countless stone architecture over the centuries has been demolished in tidal waves. They all have points of structural weakness, you don't need to pulverize every square inch. The ship could certainly have large segments intact depending on the impact point, the angle of impact, etc. Don't underestimate the power of water and the resilience of wood - even against stone. HOWEVER, a wave that massive would also have devastated the beach. So, a little suspension of disbelief is required (or a lot).

EDIT:
consider a two by four stretched across a road and whacked by an oncoming truck.
It doesn't pulverize the wood to molecules, just breaks it into large pieces where
the stress points gave way to release the inelastic energy tranfer. Even though the
truck is much heavier (and denser).

thanks for the input Dumpy... this is pretty convincing coming from a physicist :biggrin:

The ship could certainly have large segments intact depending on the impact point, the angle of impact, etc.

Yeah, but not THAT much intact. It wouldn't have been this healthy (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:Black_Rock_(full).jpg). You can see almost the entire ship intact in there, and that's from Exodus.

It shouldn't be significantly damaged it should be completely destroyed. If it was coming at the statue with enough force to break it, then that energy returns toward the boat after it hits the statue, and if the force destroyed the statue, it must destroy the ship.

The principle is that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So, if the boat carried enough energy to destroy the statue, upon impact, the equal and opposite reaction is that that energy destroys the ship.

Like I said, it's not possible according to current laws of physics, but I'm ok with that, anyway.



I think people are stuck on this because it's one thing to ask you to accept something that hasn't been proven in the real world yet, like time traveling (there are theories, but as far as I know nobody has ever time traveled), and it's quite another to ask you to accept something that you know for sure can't really happen in the real world. Like Kate's trial.

I guess some people want the show to adhere to reality when it's not necessary to recur to other non-traditional explanations. For instance we know that people walk forward, one foot in front of the other. If we suddenly saw the Losties walking backward, just because, I think some people might have a problem with that.

I mean, some things are simple, and it's not necessary to create convoluted explanations for them. A tidal wave could destroy a statue, a ship couldn't. It would have been as easy as having a first wave take the statue out and a second one carry the ship inland. The fact that the ship impacted the statue and didn't get shredded to pieces is the problem. But I guess they thought it would be more dramatic if the ship destroyed the statue

Hmmm, well, I disagree. You're acting like we know the exact trajectory of the ship, the state of the statue, the velocity of the wave, etc...for all we know the ships glanced off the side of the statue's head, starting a slight crack as the ship continued onwards. For all we know, the wave did most of the damage, or just finished off the destruction. You're assuming the ship and the statue are the only two variables here. What we were presented with is not as simple as, say, a fist slamming into a wall, breaking thet wall (but also breaking all the knuckles). They didn't show any of that so I dont get how people think they can accurately apply the laws of physics here.

I'm well aware of the lesson you're imparting, you're absolutely right about those. We just don't know the details. There's far too many unknowns to say that what we saw could not have happened.

And so we have the Black Rock is sitting in the jungle (presumably with a front end that's not looking so good), and a smashed up statue. Not unreasonable, and "according to the laws of physics," definitely not impossible.

As for adhering the reality, I generally like my reality served realistically, so maybe the size of that wave was ridiculous, but really, I dont care. As far as I'm concerned, Jacob could have made it so.

Well, the only reason I'm assuming a head on collision is because of the loud noise they bothered to put in there when the ship hit the statue.

You are right that there could have been a particular trajectory and that if the impact wasn't head on, and the ship hit a particularly weak spot in the structure, it could have collapsed. But you are aware that the probability of all of that happening at the same time, in the middle of a storm, on top of a tidal wave is pretty low, right?

In any case, as I said before, I really don't care. I know this show is not grounded in reality and have known it since season 1, so, I'm not expecting it to have the same rules we do. "Because Jacob made it so", is perfectly acceptable to me too. It's a TV show, I don't need it to be real, and I don't watch it because of its close relationship to the real world (as opposed to, say, watching an Everest documentary on the Discovery channel). I watch it because I like the characters.

The only thing I'm trying to do here is understand the other side and accept the validity of their arguments.

I just think its funny, there has been time traveling, people showing up as ghosts, people inheriting other peoples bodies, and you guys are trying to dissect how a wooden ship riding a giant wave could possibly survive crashing into a stone statue? At this point anything is possible people...

Well, the only reason I'm assuming a head on collision is because of the loud noise they bothered to put in there when the ship hit the statue.

You are right that there could have been a particular trajectory and that if the impact wasn't head on, and the ship hit a particularly weak spot in the structure, it could have collapsed. But you are aware that the probability of all of that happening at the same time, in the middle of a storm, on top of a tidal wave is pretty low, right?

In any case, as I said before, I really don't care. I know this show is not grounded in reality and have known it since season 1, so, I'm not expecting it to have the same rules we do. "Because Jacob made it so", is perfectly acceptable to me too. It's a TV show, I don't need it to be real, and I don't watch it because of its close relationship to the real world (as opposed to, say, watching an Everest documentary on the Discovery channel). I watch it because I like the characters.

The only thing I'm trying to do here is understand the other side and accept the validity of their arguments.

To me, that sound indicated that the hull had split, not that it had necessarily been head-on, or that there werent any other factors involved. Not sure why the likelihood of the statue having a weakspot is any less likely because it's in the middle of a storm, you lost me there. I really think the power of the wave has alot to do with it too. And let's not forget that a galley (or whatever that large boat is) is pretty damn heavy. To be honest, a fault in the statue was not even my first though - if you throw something sufficiently heavy at something tall and slim, there's a decent chance it's going to break, especially if that something (the second something;)) has no give to it, like a stone statue. It's totally liable to break.

I'm the same, really...I dont really care as long as the story is good; it's just lately there's alot of nitpicking without alot of thought and I find it a little frustrating. To each his/her own, I guess. That said, I also am not a big fan of the court scene you metioned, but I can accept a simplified version for the sake of television. Kinda like all those babies that pop out quick and relatively painless.

An another note, has it ever been established (for real!) just how far inland the Black Rock was supposed to be in seasons past, or was it left relatively vague?

i mean, what are the odds that the ship would smash right into the statue where jacob lives?

You are watching LOST are you not? Do we have to go down the list of "what are the odds of..." questions. I don't have a problem with it in context of the show. My only concern is that the ship would be splinters if it did that damage to the statue. I would put this in the category of "Suspension of Disbelief".

To people saying "Other unbelievable things have happened in this show, therefore you should accept it when other unbelievable things happen"

When they introduce a fictional / supernatural element to the show, you can't argue with it, you have to accept it on its own terms, since the writers are telling you the nature of that thing. The smoke monster, and the powers of the island, and so on. You can't apply a rational application of physics to those things, since they don't obey them.

A wooden ship destroying a stone statue, then continuing its course onto the island does not make sense, and those things can be assessed rationally, since it's still a world that has normal physics. It literally would not happen.

That being said, I don't care one way or the other about this. The statue's destruction never really interested me and I didn't see it as much of an important mystery.

More of a mystery was how the ship got onto the island. And the answer - by magic - does not interest me.

I just think its funny, there has been time traveling, people showing up as ghosts, people inheriting other peoples bodies, and you guys are trying to dissect how a wooden ship riding a giant wave could possibly survive crashing into a stone statue? At this point anything is possible people...

Truth. :biggrin:

A ship was on calm seas. I thin it's perfectly reasonable to assume that wasn't the Black Rock. Jacob had brought people to the Island before the Black Rock, and they wouldn't have been on airplanes.

Could the other ship have been called "The White Rock"? Could this explain the "inside joke" of the rocks on the scale? Jacob brought one ship to the Island and his adversary brought the other? Could the skeletons in the cave be the captains of each ship?

If there WAS another ship...what happened to it?

A wooden ship destroying a stone statue, then continuing its course onto the island does not make sense, and those things can be assessed rationally, since it's still a world that has normal physics. It literally would not happen.


You are correct. Lets get Mythbusters on this one. What speed was the ship going when it hit the statue? How much does the ship way? Someone figure what was the force the ship hit the statue with. What kind of wood were ships made of back then? What angle did the ship hit the statue? Did it just graze it? What was the statue made of? Are there stress points on the statue we need to look at? Was the statue damaged or worn before the ship hit it? I think the build team needs to make some scale models before we go full scale with this.

My disappoint with the Black Rock landing in the middle of the island this way is that I was sure the ship had to be traveling in the area at the moment the island reappeared in a new time, thereby lifting the Black Rock out of the water.

As ridiculous as a wave bringing it up to the statue's head, yes, but more reasonable as an explanation within the context of the series.

You are watching LOST are you not? Do we have to go down the list of "what are the odds of..." questions. I don't have a problem with it in context of the show. My only concern is that the ship would be splinters if it did that damage to the statue. I would put this in the category of "Suspension of Disbelief".

my point was that there must have been some supernatural intervention, by MiB or perhaps by "the island" to make this happen.

i wasn't saying i had a problem with it.

Crazy's breakdown of energy transfer is correct for a head on, but reading one of the recaps off of dark, I found a really nice pic of the angle of collision. It's hard to tell from our point of view, but the angle of impact seems to be at least 20 degrees, and I'd really think the damage to the ship would be worse than what we have seen, I don't think the ship would be obliterated. Much of the force of the ship on the statue would act along the axis of the ship, but it's glancing at at LEAST 20 degrees, which means there would a component of lateral motion, so the ship would only be hitting with a force of about 70%, but the statue would also be getting the full amount of force from the water, as it is pushing straight into it. Also, since the statue would likely snap off at the weakest point, the two legs, and since the black rock hit at the highest point, the head, the reactionary force would further be dampened has the legs gave, rotating the top of the statue outwards, increasing the angle.

As crazy said, one of the three laws of motion are that every force has an equal and opposite reaction force, so when you push on a wall with 5 pounds of force, that wall is pushing back on you with 5 pounds of force. The initial impact of the force of the ship hitting the statue snapped the legs, tore into the hull, and the force propagated back through the rest of the ship. As it propagates, it is resisted more and more by the mass at the back of the ship. Also, since it's not a static problem, the initial force at contact is the greatest amount of that the ship and the statue exert on each other, and as the statue topples in the direction of the black rock's motion, that force would immediately lessen, and the angle of contact between the ship and the statue would be changing in direction both to the right, due to the initial impact angle, and up, due to the toppling of the statue. With two angles changing, that implies that the force is lessening very quickly, as the whole whole accident probably took more than a half a second to a second.

And again, this is not even taking into account the water, which would envelop the back of the ship as the ship is slowed by impacting the statue, effectively increasing it's mass and absorbing some of the propagating force. Now that I've thought it through, I think it's all pretty much plausible based on the height and strength of the wave.

Oh yeah..pic:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cqPPhDgcVxw/S6ne6_o3EkI/AAAAAAAAASw/ZBPsOUeMk8Y/s1600/Black+Rock+statue+collision.jpg

i wasn't saying i had a problem with it.

Sorry. My fault.
100%
Crazy's breakdown of energy transfer is correct for a head on, but reading one of the recaps off of dark, I found a really nice pic of the angle of collision. It's hard to tell from our point of view, but the angle of impact seems to be at least 20 degrees, and I'd really think the damage to the ship would be worse than what we have seen, I don't think the ship would be obliterated. Much of the force of the ship on the statue would act along the axis of the ship, but it's glancing at at LEAST 20 degrees, which means there would a component of lateral motion, so the ship would only be hitting with a force of about 70%, but the statue would also be getting the full amount of force from the water, as it is pushing straight into it. Also, since the statue would likely snap off at the weakest point, the two legs, and since the black rock hit at the highest point, the head, the reactionary force would further be dampened has the legs gave, rotating the top of the statue outwards, increasing the angle.

As crazy said, one of the three laws of motion are that every force has an equal and opposite reaction force, so when you push on a wall with 5 pounds of force, that wall is pushing back on you with 5 pounds of force. The initial impact of the force of the ship hitting the statue snapped the legs, tore into the hull, and the force propagated back through the rest of the ship. As it propagates, it is resisted more and more by the mass at the back of the ship. Also, since it's not a static problem, the initial force at contact is the greatest amount of that the ship and the statue exert on each other, and as the statue topples in the direction of the black rock's motion, that force would immediately lessen, and the angle of contact between the ship and the statue would be changing in direction both to the right, due to the initial impact angle, and up, due to the toppling of the statue. With two angles changing, that implies that the force is lessening very quickly, as the whole whole accident probably took more than a half a second to a second.

And again, this is not even taking into account the water, which would envelop the back of the ship as the ship is slowed by impacting the statue, effectively increasing it's mass and absorbing some of the propagating force. Now that I've thought it through, I think it's all pretty much plausible based on the height and strength of the wave.

Oh yeah..pic:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_cqPPhDgcVxw/S6ne6_o3EkI/AAAAAAAAASw/ZBPsOUeMk8Y/s1600/Black+Rock+statue+collision.jpg

Now we are talking. What we are missing is the makeup of the statue. Will it take all of the force of the ship? I don't know that much about physics, so correct me if I am wrong. It is true that every force has an equal and opposite reaction force. What if I throw a baseball at a sheet of paper. The paper will rip at a certain force. Lets say it is 1/8th of the force the ball has and thus has little affect on the ball. The opposite force would not be equal to the force the ball has. Would this be correct?

We also need to know what force would destroy the ship.

And how did Edmond Dantes become The Count of Monte Cristo? It wasn't possible, and never truly explained; but, still, it's a damned good story.

Sorry. My fault.
100%


Now we are talking. What we are missing is the makeup of the statue. Will it take all of the force of the ship? I don't know that much about physics, so correct me if I am wrong. It is true that every force has an equal and opposite reaction force. What if I throw a baseball at a sheet of paper. The paper will rip at a certain force. Lets say it is 1/8th of the force the ball has and thus has little affect on the ball. The opposite force would not be equal to the force the ball has. Would this be correct?

We also need to know what force would destroy the ship.

The force you are talking about with the paper example is a materials problem. The paper IS exerting an equal force on the baseball. However, the paper is only able to withstand a certain amount of force, and how much force it can withstand is dependent on the area of the cross section of the piece of paper. A regular 8.5 x 11 sheet has a negligible cross sectional area and thus can not stand up to any force. You will notice however, if the paper is completely taut, even though it rips, it WILL slow down the baseball. It produces what is called an impulse on the baseball. It is not a constant force, but it is a force nonetheless, therefore it changes the velocity and direction of the baseball with an equal force but only during the time that the force exists. Once the paper rips the force is gone. So for a a couple thousandths of a second, there is an equivalent force that is exerted on the baseball. This is exactly what I'm saying is occurring with the ship and the statue. Had the initial impact force been constant, the ship would be splinters, but since it was not constant, and it was only full strength for a few thousandths of a second, the destruction was localized to the front of the hull.

And we don't necessarily need to know the force of the ship. I kept the above example conceptual because I didn't want to spend the day surfing the web to get information to make educated assumptions on the mass of the ship, statue, strength of stone, etc. However, the conceptual idea holds, so numbers aren't really needed. As I said, the initial impact probably jacked the front of the ship up something fierce, but the damage was less and less back through the ship. And depending on how much water was displaced in that huge wave, the ship could have sailed a pretty decent distance into the jungle.

Also, as the Black Rock continues to veer away from contact with the statue, the statue is still receiving an INCREASING force, although the distribution of that force shifts as the statue topples. This force is due to more and more water pouring in on land, and it is also acting on the Black Rock, pushing it further inland until the wave finally subsides. I'm wondering if the remains of the statue are still somewhere on the island.

I figured they must just want us to believe it was a really bad storm not anything extra special. They had lots of plant debris on the beach Debris (http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/11000000/6x09-Ab-aeterno-lost-11056226-1280-720.jpg)
Sometimes you just have to not look so hard at something and just suspend your disbelief and take it at face value.

Sometimes you just have to not look so hard at something and just suspend your disbelief and take it at face value.


I agree. My original comment about the Mythbusters was a little sarcastic about people over overanalyzing things like this, but find it easy to believe John Locke can walk after getting to the island or how the people survived the plane crash. After I thought about the Black Rock, I found I did not have to suspend disbelief that much to believe that it did destroy the statue and end up in the jungle.

has everybody forgotten that an EMP can't really split an airplane in half in midair? wait, maybe Desmond took down a different plane when he forgot to enter the numbers in the Swan hatch, and the plane that split in half in mid air wasn't Oceanic 815 at all... this is almost as bad as the 10 page discussion of whether Jack said "either" or "neither" after the S3 finale.

The force you are talking about with the paper example is a materials problem.

I think the statue versus boat scenario is also a materials problem because rock against wood is an unbalanced fight, no matter how strong the wood is.

The Caribbean sea is littered with vessels such as the BR because,among other reasons, they crashed into coral reefs. Coral is weaker than stone.

Also, in the pic you provided, I don't see a 20° angle. It looks as if the boat is headed straight toward the cheek of the statue, which appears to be sturdier than the dog-like snout.

Nevertheless, I still don't care if it's possible or not, since it didn't diminish my enjoyment of the episode. I believe the probability is very low, but I'll suspend disbelief once again. No problem. The important point on that whole sequence is how it affected the character, Richard:

First his slave mate tells him he sees the devil and that they are headed toward hell
Then they hit something big and crash
Richard is disoriented after because he can't where they landed and he can't leave the ship
His own captain comes down and kills all his mates
A column of black smoke kills the captain
Richard is stuck, a prisoner, without food or water for days (there were four lines scratched in the wooden post where his chains were anchored)
A desolate, traumatized Richard, gets a visit from his dead wife who is then "killed" again by the smoke monster
When he is at his wits' end, MIB comes in to offer him a deal
Those are the relevant facts of the Black Rock crash. The ones that affected Richard, the character that the episode was focused on. Everything else is immaterial, in my very humble opinion.

I haven't read through all the comments (shame on me), but the explanation with the BR and the statue is completely and utterly ridiculous. And it's sad, given the fact that they weren't forced to do it.

Since season 1, everybody was wondering how the heck a ship got to the middle of the island (roughly 10 miles land-in, according to the official island map).

Somewhere in season 3 (or 4), Ben moved the island. Big ah-ha-moment! The island can move through space (and time). Easy explanation for the BR: It just happened to be where the island moved.

There's really no sane explanation as to why they came up with a completely unreal scenario instead. Why not have the black rock sail in bright sunlight (as we've - presumably - been shown in The Incident) and then suddenly the sky turns purple and there's a bright flash of light -- and suddenly it's night, raining and the ship is tipped over in the jungle. Surely the sailors would have been confused and smokey might just as well have killed them all then.

Why the statue was broken was a whole different story in the first place. I am not even sure if I really needed an answer for that. But still: Any answer is better than a little wooden boat blowing a huge stone statue into pieces. It just makes no sense.

I think the statue versus boat scenario is also a materials problem because rock against wood is an unbalanced fight, no matter how strong the wood is.

The Caribbean sea is littered with vessels such as the BR because,among other reasons, they crashed into coral reefs. Coral is weaker than stone.

Also, in the pic you provided, I don't see a 20° angle. It looks as if the boat is headed straight toward the cheek of the statue, which appears to be sturdier than the dog-like snout.

Nevertheless, I still don't care if it's possible or not, since it didn't diminish my enjoyment of the episode. I believe the probability is very low, but I'll suspend disbelief once again. No problem. The important point on that whole sequence is how it affected the character, Richard:

First his slave mate tells him he sees the devil and that they are headed toward hell
Then they hit something big and crash
Richard is disoriented after because he can't where they landed and he can't leave the ship
His own captain comes down and kills all his mates
A column of black smoke kills the captain
Richard is stuck, a prisoner, without food or water for days (there were four lines scratched in the wooden post where his chains were anchored)
A desolate, traumatized Richard, gets a visit from his dead wife who is then "killed" again by the smoke monster
When he is at his wits' end, MIB comes in to offer him a deal

Those are the relevant facts of the Black Rock crash. The ones that affected Richard, the character that the episode was focused on. Everything else is immaterial, in my very humble opinion.

The location of the camera is off center and is looking directly at the statue, but the bow of the ship is traveling straight. I added axes to show what I'm talking about. The angle difference there is 50 degrees from the central point of the bow. The ship is quite wide, so the deflection isn't quite 50 degrees, but there is significant deflection. I don't think 20 is too high an assumption. That axis is a bit quick and sloppy, so + or - 10 degrees :D

pic:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/4830/blackrockstatuecollisio.jpg

As for the rest of the post, I agree, the facts relevant to Richard are what is relevant to the story, but I always like the little intellectual exercises Lost provides. Especially in this case...what I find so neat about it is upon first glance, it doesn't seem feasible, but if you delve into specifics, the whole idea of the survival of the ship, as well as it's position deep inland do become a lot more plausible, especially on a magic island.

Oh, also, the argument about coastal reefs...The reefs have much larger areas, and are generally interconnected, so when a ship crashes on a reef, it may do damage to the portion it's hitting, but reefs are actually VERY large structures, if I remember correctly. So it's akin to an iceberg. The tip of it is what the ships are crashing on...they make break tips here and there, those tips are legion in reef structures. The statue is a manmade structure that has weak points where the cross sectional area is less, and also has weak points at the point where the foot contacts the pedestal. The ship struck the left shoulder, and the left foot (correct?) is missing, so the statue rotated away from the body as it hit. The foot was the initial weak point and the ship was thrown clear relatively quickly. The ankle broke because the force of the rest of the statue was acting on it, as was the water. But all of this would suggest that there are pieces of the statue somewhere on the island, which may or may not serve to further the story.

Part of the issue surrounding all this is the well intentioned but
entirely wrong view that you can just sit there and imagine what
should happen:

Stone is harder than rock so the ship should smash to bits and
the statue remain standing.

But science is not that easy. People imagined for a long time that
light moved at infinite speed, that it originated from the eyes, that
planets moved in circular paths. Does it seem obvious that water
could carve the Grand Canyon? That a person could break a cinder
block with their hand? That ancient people could build the Great
Pyramids? That you are standing on a body rotating (depending
where you are) faster than the speed of sound and you can't feel it?

Even something simple like "does the toilet flush clockwise in one
hemisphere and counter in the other?" gets people reasoning with pseudo-
scientific logic. (It does NOT flush like that by the way. Want to do some
science? Look next time you flush. Check a few toilets. That was easy
proof, wasn't it? Don't make me calculate the coriolis force over the latitude
change of a toilet bowl to show its irrelevance.)

The point is, water weight is unfathomably massive in a tidal wave. It can break
a lot of things, drive things at incredible speed and things can smash into really
hard things and remain largely intact depending on how they hit and what their
stress points are. Me saying it does not prove it, but believing it just can't be so doesn't either.

I do, however, object to the explosive way the collision tossed pieces of statue
around and the fact that the beach was pristine afterward.

P.S. A 1960 tidal wave destroyed one of the 45 feet tall Easter Island Moai.
scattering the parts over five acres.

Part of the issue surrounding all this is the well intentioned but
entirely wrong view that you can just sit there and imagine what
should happen:

Stone is harder than rock so the ship should smash to bits and
the statue remain standing.

But science is not that easy. People imagined for a long time that
light moved at infinite speed, that it originated from the eyes, that
planets moved in circular paths. Does it seem obvious that water
could carve the Grand Canyon? That a person could break a cinder
block with their hand? That ancient people could build the Great
Pyramids? That you are standing on a body rotating (depending
where you are) faster than the speed of sound and you can't feel it?

Even something simple like "does the toilet flush clockwise in one
hemisphere and counter in the other?" gets people reasoning with pseudo-
scientific logic. (It does NOT flush like that by the way. Want to do some
science? Look next time you flush. Check a few toilets. That was easy
proof, wasn't it? Don't make me calculate the coriolis force over the latitude
change of a toilet bowl to show its irrelevance.)

The point is, water weight is unfathomably massive in a tidal wave. It can break
a lot of things, drive things at incredible speed and things can smash into really
hard things and remain largely intact depending on how they hit and what their
stress points are. Me saying it does not prove it, but believing it just can't be so doesn't either.

I do, however, object to the explosive way the collision tossed pieces of statue
around and the fact that the beach was pristine afterward.

P.S. A 1960 tidal wave destroyed one of the 45 feet tall Easter Island Moai.
scattering the parts over five acres.


Well said...one of the most difficult parts of my early semesters of pre-engineering was getting over some of the seemingly non-logical occurrences that happen in the weird world of force analysis. There are a lot of prevalent misconceptions that seem very logical until you see the math behind what is really going on. Physics, by far, was conceptually the most difficult class because instead of just learning new things, I had to unlearn a lot of things that I thought were true.

There was a big tsunami that year

As a MSc in physics I agree to a certain point. A tidal wave might in fact have torn down the statue. But, as stated Dumpy, it doesn't add up with the surroundings. The ship was set into the middle of the island (10 MILES inland) and the surrounding trees were "just fine". I've heard somebody estimate the statue to be 250 ft tall. That is a bit much, but still: Such a giant wave would have destroyed the beach. But instead it just looks the same with a little bit of statue lying around.

And, let me say that again: There was no need. To me and ALL of my (Lost-watching) friends, the story of the Black Rock became instantly clear as soon as Ben moved the island through space. Alas, the correct answer is ironically less sci-fi but actually weirder...

As a MSc in physics I agree to a certain point. A tidal wave might in fact have torn down the statue. But, as stated Dumpy, it doesn't add up with the surroundings. The ship was set into the middle of the island (10 MILES inland) and the surrounding trees were "just fine". I've heard somebody estimate the statue to be 250 ft tall. That is a bit much, but still: Such a giant wave would have destroyed the beach. But instead it just looks the same with a little bit of statue lying around.

And, let me say that again: There was no need. To me and ALL of my (Lost-watching) friends, the story of the Black Rock became instantly clear as soon as Ben moved the island through space. Alas, the correct answer is ironically less sci-fi but actually weirder...

I think between 220 to 270 is about right. Estimating the pedestal as being 10 to 12 feet (the room inside had quite a bit of ceiling clearance, and there were steps up in the room leading to the main platform, 4-6 feet of clearance plus the thickness of the stone is not an unreasonable assumption), I just found a screen of the statue and used paint to stack the pedestals on the statue. The statue is exactly 20 pedestals high, not including the pedestal itself. The wave was shoulder height, so it was sitting between 160 to 210 feet. That's a honkin' wave no matter how you slice it.

To people saying "Other unbelievable things have happened in this show, therefore you should accept it when other unbelievable things happen"

When they introduce a fictional / supernatural element to the show, you can't argue with it, you have to accept it on its own terms, since the writers are telling you the nature of that thing. The smoke monster, and the powers of the island, and so on. You can't apply a rational application of physics to those things, since they don't obey them.

A wooden ship destroying a stone statue, then continuing its course onto the island does not make sense, and those things can be assessed rationally, since it's still a world that has normal physics. It literally would not happen.



Thank you Chrysander. I'm not sure why some people fail to understand this and try making the same argument every time something ridiculous is discussed.



Yeah, but not THAT much intact. It wouldn't have been this healthy (http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/File:Black_Rock_%28full%29.jpg). You can see almost the entire ship intact in there, and that's from Exodus.


Doesn't look like a ship that cracked a stone statue and landed 10 miles inland to me... but then, I'm sure they had no idea the ship was going to end up hitting a stone statue when that picture was made.



I've heard somebody estimate the statue to be 250 ft tall. That is a bit much...


I estimated it to be 215-250 feet in height assuming that the base is 12-15 feet in height.

Thank you Chrysander. I'm not sure why some people fail to understand this and try making the same argument every time something ridiculous is discussed.


I've provided a sound physical case from what we've seen of the crash in the last few posts above. I agree with Chrysander on the idea of accepting the supernatural vs the natural, but I don't accept that it couldn't happen. It's pretty obvious to me after doing some conceptual analysis that it's a completely feasible outcome.



Doesn't look like a ship that cracked a stone statue and landed 10 miles inland to me... but then, I'm sure they had no idea the ship was going to end up hitting a stone statue when that picture was made.
We're not seeing the front left angled portion of the bow which is the actual point of contact. They either lucked out, or intentionally kept that portion of the ship hidden.




I estimated it to be 215-250 feet in height assuming that the base is 12-15 feet in height.I took a screen grab of the long lens shot of the statue from season 5, cut out the pedestal in paint, and then pasted and stacked them until I covered the statue. It comes out to 20 pedestals exactly, so with your estimation it's more along the lines of 240-300. My estimates tend to be conservative, but a height between 200-300 feet seems about right for the statue, which, as I said, makes that shoulder-height wave to be pretty monstrous (the head ended up taking up about three pedestals.)

This is bull puckey. A stone statue gets shattered by a wooden ship? More likely the ship would be smashed into matchsticks. And how did the ship get dragged so far inland?

Well, actually we don't know how old the statue was. If the statue is very old and has been sitting on the ocean facing the sea for hundreds of years it may not be very solid after being beaten on by salt water and wind all those years.

It's ugly, but here's a picture showing visually what's going on with the all of the forces:

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4830/blackrockstatuecollisio.jpg

While the initial contact is quite brutal, you can see that because of the angle, the statue is rotating away from the ship, and vice versa, though at different speeds (presuming that the missing foot was the weakest point, and thus the location of the initial break in the statue. This makes sense because the foot is completely swept away, and the statue and the pedestal are two pieces). The ship and the statue were not in contact for more than a few thousandths of a second. Everything we've been shown in the series in regards to the black rock is plausible at worst.

And I just watched the crash again...it actually hits the left cheek, that pic is hard to make out. But the crash is much the same...the ship rotates into it so it seems as if it's head on, but the body of the ship is moving at an angle, so it's the same thing as I pitched above, but from the opposite side.

That also explains why we've never seen the damage on the ship, as it is on the right side of the bow, a portion which we've never had a good look at.

http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/3931/brock.jpg

We're not seeing the front left angled portion of the bow which is the actual point of contact. They either lucked out, or intentionally kept that portion of the ship hidden.

Not on the exterior shots, but we have seen the interior and the front left portion is intact. There's no damage on the left wall in any interior shot of the ship since we first saw it in Exodus.

So much so that when Locke put Sawyer in there with Cooper, Sawyer banged on the door and screamed his head off because there was no other way out.

More recently, the captain kept going in and out through the steps, if there had been damage on the front left portion, wouldn't it have been easier for him to come in and out that way?

PS: I'm such a sucker for arguments. Look at me, I don't even care if it's possible and here I am, still discussing how possible it is!!! :biggrin:

Not on the exterior shots, but we have seen the interior and the front left portion is intact. There's no damage on the left wall in any interior shot of the ship since we first saw it in Exodus.

So much so that when Locke put Sawyer in there with Cooper, Sawyer banged on the door and screamed his head off because there was no other way out.

More recently, the captain kept going in and out through the steps, if there had been damage on the front left portion, wouldn't it have been easier for him to come in and out that way?

PS: I'm such a sucker for arguments. Look at me, I don't even care if it's possible and here I am, still discussing how possible it is!!! :biggrin:

LOL me too. I think posted while you were typing, but yeah I was wrong on which side it hit, it's the right side of the boat that would have some damage. As for the Captain, I'm assuming he and the officers were staying on the ship since it offered shelter, provisions, and some measure of cover. I'm not sure they ever debarked.

Um, I think the biggest issue here is that we saw the black rock in daylight in last season's finale while Jacob and man in black are talking. Or are we supposed to "believe" that was some other ship?

But yeah, ridiculous either way.


oh yeah!

This is another one of those answers that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Like the Swan hatch somehow dragging a plane out of the sky and breaking it in half while not causing any other nearby catastrophes.

Yeah I prefer my own answers on this subject. Black Rock is far inland on island because the island can move and it could of popped up under black rock. And I always thought the statue was not whole because it was really old. And like almost all really old statues I've ever seen it is not whole. I really, really, really, don't like the answer they gave at all. I'm so disappointed. I find it comical and unbelivable.

ok, so I think the point everyone is missing is that the only proof that the black rock was thrown at the statue and destroyed it was because MIB SAID that it did. I'm not buying it, and I think we'll all find out later that it was NOT the boat that caused the statue to be destroyed. Even though there have been some hard to believe things happen in Lost, I think that TPTB know that it seems ridiculous to think that 1.) the boat destroyed the statue (it would more likely be the storm that did it) and 2.) the boat would be so well preserved in the middle of the jungle. I realize that we haven't seen the entire boat and don't know it's condition, but come on, really? there is no way that a boat like that would survive as well as it did if it did indeed get thrown THROUGH the statue and into the island. I think there is more to come on this...

The other thing is that everybody thinks of this thing as ONE stone. Ever seen a tall proud Ionic column? From far away looks like one piece, but it's actually a bunch of little pieces fitted together. I have to assume that this statue was not built out of one GIGANTIC piece of stone that was carved...But serveral smaller pieces that were fitted together....In my mind, the idea that the ship, hurled by the giant wave could easily have smashed the statue....Now, where this huge wave came from, I don't know...The water we see the ship in is nowhere near the height to throw it into the head of old Tawaret.


The statue story has a couple of BIG problems, which this ep highlights again. But this destruction question is not one of those problems

For everyone who is having an issue with the ship destroying the statue (and I admit I had a brief flash of that).... this is a show where during the FIRST episode we all bought that a plane could break apart thousands of feet in the air and there were over 40 survivors with barely a scratch.

The Black Rock didn't take out the statue by itself, it was backed by a couple thousand gallons of water! The giant wave by itself would be more than enough to take out the statue the Black Rock was just icing on the cake.

Yeah..I had to tranquilize my physics side of my brain for that part..but hey, I can suspend disbelief with the best of them if the story is good enough, and boy was it.


You can tranquilize the physics side of your brain if the story is good enough? Are you kidding me?!?!? Either you are 5 years old or you are taking some incredibly good drugs. This whole story has gotten progressively worse and more outlandish each and every season! So the biggest wave in the history of the world somehow bashes a ship into a MASSIVE statue that can be seen from miles away and destroys it...REALLY?!?!? That's the answer to that? Seriously, how can anyone be happy with any of the explanations we are getting? This has to be the worst writing in the history of television...hands down...and the fact that people actually like it and think it's intelligent...is mind blowing.

We know where the ship left from and we assume where it was going (always bad to assume) what if the horrible storm and the ship being tossed at the statue was from the island and surrounding water being moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific?

The other thing is that everybody thinks of this thing as ONE stone. Ever seen a tall proud Ionic column? From far away looks like one piece, but it's actually a bunch of little pieces fitted together. I have to assume that this statue was not built out of one GIGANTIC piece of stone that was carved...But serveral smaller pieces that were fitted together

Good Point.

So the biggest wave in the history of the world somehow bashes a ship into a MASSIVE statue that can be seen from miles away and destroys it...REALLY?!?!?

So an airplane breaks apart thousands of feet in the air and somehow 40+ people survive with barely a scratch... REALLY?!?!? :rolleyes:

The real question is where did all those pieces go, that was a big statue.

Those pieces could have been lying in the jungle for 150 years and no one in the present day would have a clue they were even there with all the overgrowth. Or maybe people did find the pieces...and built the Temple out of them. OH SNAP!

-steve

Just piping in to say that curiously, right as the ship supposedly hit the statue, my TV's audio and video seemed to cut out for the briefest of moments, and the ship was suddenly grounded on the island. I'm like, What did I miss?

JeepDude. What happens is: We see the ship being tossed on roiling seas. If you want to believe it, you can say that there was the beginnings of a giant swell in that shot as well. The next shot is from the POV of the Ship. It somehow is now at head level to the statue and is approaching quickly...Then the screen DOES go black, and the only thing you hear on the soundtrack is a wooden Crunch. Next shot: Ship in the jungle.

To my mind, to explain the discrepancy in height, all they needed was a reverse on the ship and a giant wave closing in. One shot,one second...Why they didn't put it in, I have no idea.

Those pieces could have been lying in the jungle for 150 years and no one in the present day would have a clue they were even there with all the overgrowth. Or maybe people did find the pieces...and built the Temple out of them. OH SNAP!

-steve


... however, if you bury a necklace a few inches in the dirt it will still be there 150 years later.

Colin, in the same very unpacked fake marsh ground as well.

I think we have to give them dramatic license on the necklace. It's ultimately only important as a symbol of his love for the woman.

The BR destroying the statue makes little sense to me....

I mean, wood vs. stone and wood wins? Really?

I would like to see the Mythbusters take on this one.


JAMIE: Okay, Adam, so today we are going to see if we can destroy a gigantic statue with an old wooden ship.

ADAM: C-o-o-o-o-l! Hey, can we chain up in this ship's lower deck the three annoying co-hosts they gave us a few seasons back?

JAMIE: Mmmm... I don't see why not.

I think we have to give them dramatic license on the necklace.
But not the ship/statue?

Pascal....I don't think they NEED dramatic license on the ship/statue.

I was in Greece a couple of months ago. I saw this giant Ionic Column that had fallen into dozens of smaller pieces because of the wind. This thing was a hundred feet tall.

I was in Cartagena last year. They had attempted to build the world's tallest apartment building there at the sea shore. At about the 60th floor, again the wind, bent the thing so that they had to deconstruct the entire thing...That's just the wind!!

So a giant wave hurling a ship at an impossibly tall statue, and the ship hits it at it's weakest point, right at the top, I say it's plausible. Hey, every year Michael Bay or someone produces a movie where a giant wave breaks stuff, why is it no good here?

I refuse to let something of this nature spoil my enjoyment of the overall story for several reasons. First the statue is obviously very old and as result of what little I know of ancient building techniques I am assuming that it was constructed with stacked stones therefore making it less than solid rock. I also feel that it was probably a little top heavy given the whole thing rested on only the two legs. If we accept it as Egyptian in design we can assume it is very old, 2000 years plus. Lastly as someone who lives very near a coastal area I can tell you that putting that amount of weight on a beach with sand is not a good idea. Therefore I can very easily accept the ship and the waves did it. As far as the Black Rock I need to go watch the show again but I am almost certain that when the guy who bought Richard from the priest came down to dispatch the chained men, he made a comment that the were in the middle of the jungle and the ship had broken into three pieces.

I just go okay and move on as something like this does not effect my enjoyment of the show. The producers have sad repeatedly the show is about the characters and that's what I have focused on.

You can tranquilize the physics side of your brain if the story is good enough? Are you kidding me?!?!? Either you are 5 years old or you are taking some incredibly good drugs. This whole story has gotten progressively worse and more outlandish each and every season! So the biggest wave in the history of the world somehow bashes a ship into a MASSIVE statue that can be seen from miles away and destroys it...REALLY?!?!? That's the answer to that? Seriously, how can anyone be happy with any of the explanations we are getting? This has to be the worst writing in the history of television...hands down...and the fact that people actually like it and think it's intelligent...is mind blowing.


Well, I'm neither 5 years old, nor are my drugs that good. But there's been several people, myself included, who have analyzed this from a physical perspective. I understand you may not be a science fan, but trust us when we say it is entirely plausible. If you have some education in physics, by all means, chime in and show us where we are wrong, but if you have no formal education in physics, or have at least studied it on your own in depth, you may want to stop while you are ahead. As someone posted a page or two back, science isn't as obvious or easy as you think it is because there are so many variables and actions occurring in any given situation. The fact that you can't see any way that this could be plausible indicates that your a bit lacking in the physics department though.

And as for the crash of Oceanic...the electromagnetic field, when changing, induces a current in conductive materials (such as aluminum, which is what the plane was made out of.) This induction creates a force. As the current changes, there is a countering magnetic field produced by the current (this is why it's called ELECTRO magnetism, because there is a commonality between the two phenomena. Depending on the strength of the applied magnetic field, those forces could theoretically build up to such a point that there is material failure, ripping the plane apart. The oceanic crash is less plausible than the Black Rock statue destruction, but only because it would require an INCREDIBLY strong magnetic field to effect aluminum enough to deform. We don't know how strong the hatch setup was.

I'm not really going to go into it further as I really don't have a hardcore enough physics background to delve into the particulars of that problem, and also because you probably aren't going to read it either, since you didn't read any of the other proofs. But please, continue to hate the show....just realize, you don't have to log on and hate it here.


The proper application of enough force will do crazy things.
100%
JeepDude. What happens is: We see the ship being tossed on roiling seas. If you want to believe it, you can say that there was the beginnings of a giant swell in that shot as well. The next shot is from the POV of the Ship. It somehow is now at head level to the statue and is approaching quickly...Then the screen DOES go black, and the only thing you hear on the soundtrack is a wooden Crunch. Next shot: Ship in the jungle.

To my mind, to explain the discrepancy in height, all they needed was a reverse on the ship and a giant wave closing in. One shot,one second...Why they didn't put it in, I have no idea.


If you're talking about the direction the ship hit, you're correct. The ship is traveling close to parallel to the statue, but right as it comes into shore, there's a swell on the left side that rotates the ship into the statue, as well as shifting the ship so the path it is traveling curves to intersect with the statue. It looked ugly at full speed, but it didn't hit it with near the force it would have were it truly head on.

i totally agree that a wooden boat destroying a stone statue is sooooo unlikely. that boat would have been totally destroyed, just think f the Titanic - it was destroyed by a piece of ice and was built way stronger than the Black Rock.

I figured they must just want us to believe it was a really bad storm not anything extra special. They had lots of plant debris on the beach Debris (http://images2.fanpop.com/image/photos/11000000/6x09-Ab-aeterno-lost-11056226-1280-720.jpg)
Sometimes you just have to not look so hard at something and just suspend your disbelief and take it at face value.

There's a lot of statue debris (http://www.losttalk.net/gallery/fullpicture_86690_o.html).

I don't consider that alot, actually NBC...though it's a great shot...We've got one head, and two ankhs. Torso? Legs?

I didn't see this posted yet, but I did skip a few pages. Let me preface by saying that this was laughable after thinking about the episode Tuesday night. It really disappointed me. But after this article, I don't have any problem with it.Lost's Storm Wave Is No Tsunami; Couldn't Carry a Ship Inland
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4350239.html

"Could a wooden ship really take out a stone statue? And would it leave the ship largely intact? The short answer is yes—if the ship were carried by a proper wave..."

"It's also totally feasible that the Black Rock would end up on land, away from the shore.It's also totally feasible that the Black Rock would end up on land, away from the shore. It's also totally feasible that the Black Rock would end up on land, away from the shore."

These are just small excerpts, the article goes into more detail. I'm convinced now. It's possible, they just messed up a small detail.

I didn't see this posted yet, but I did skip a few pages. Let me preface by saying that this was laughable after thinking about the episode Tuesday night. It really disappointed me. But after this article, I don't have any problem with it.Lost's Storm Wave Is No Tsunami; Couldn't Carry a Ship Inland
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/air_space/4350239.html

"Could a wooden ship really take out a stone statue? And would it leave the ship largely intact? The short answer is yes—if the ship were carried by a proper wave..."

"It's also totally feasible that the Black Rock would end up on land, away from the shore.It's also totally feasible that the Black Rock would end up on land, away from the shore. It's also totally feasible that the Black Rock would end up on land, away from the shore."

These are just small excerpts, the article goes into more detail. I'm convinced now. It's possible, they just messed up a small detail.


Well to all of you non-science kids out there who are chiming in with "I don't think it could happen stone>wood" but nothing else to back up your thoughts (way to be by the way...I love making stuff up with no basis other than my feelings...that's how I vote for presidents too), notice that there was never any discussion about whether the ship could have destroyed the statue. Which means they don't think it was borderline enough to even mention. It's possible, deal with it.

Maybe I'm missing something?...


From the article and quoted in the post you replied to:

"Could a wooden ship really take out a stone statue? And would it leave the ship largely intact? The short answer is yes—if the ship were carried by a proper wave..."


My bad...missed that when I scanned the article. I saw the pop-sci link, and jumped down to where they were talking about carrying the ship inland and glossed over the first part. Well..even further, there's the answer...yes, if the ship were carried by a proper wave. So all of you snarky kids with comments about 5 year olds and going to school...Maybe you should take your own advice, or stop trying to deal in things that you don't have the knowledge to deal in...like science. Ignorance held science back enough back in the day. The earth used to be flat remember. Stupidity passes faster than knowledge. If you are unsure technically about something, make a disclaimer about it. But if you are working with absolutely NO technical knowledge about a subject, please...stop. Not just here, but in real life. Uninformed actions are the problem with 90% of the world today. And ignorance is far more damaging than you think it is.

JeepDude. What happens is: We see the ship being tossed on roiling seas. If you want to believe it, you can say that there was the beginnings of a giant swell in that shot as well. The next shot is from the POV of the Ship. It somehow is now at head level to the statue and is approaching quickly...Then the screen DOES go black, and the only thing you hear on the soundtrack is a wooden Crunch. Next shot: Ship in the jungle.

To my mind, to explain the discrepancy in height, all they needed was a reverse on the ship and a giant wave closing in. One shot,one second...Why they didn't put it in, I have no idea.

Yeah, I wish they added that shot too. No clue why they skipped it...just suddenly we're up near the end. That was lame.

CrazyLatin: Agreed, the inside of the ship may not jibe with what people like enigma420 or myself are saying, but really, that just chalks up to a continuity error. I can deal with that. How the Black Rock got inland was always one of the coolest Lost mysteries for me...I'd agree that they probably didnt have their answer way back in season one, but again, that's fine by me. What I saw the other night works, and indeed seems feasible. If they show us the other side of the ship though (or the bow) and there's not a scratch, I'll be with you 100%.

Why was the wave the absolute largest in the history of the world?!? Well, that's gotta be Jacob, I guess. lol

My bad...missed that when I scanned the article. Well..even further, there's the answer...yes, if the ship were carried by a proper wave. So all of you snarky kids with comments about 5 year olds and going to school...Maybe you should take your own advice, or stop trying to deal in things that you don't have the knowledge to deal in...like science. Ignorance held science back back in the day. The earth used to be flat remember.


I tried to delete my post to add to it but you had already quoted it. Regardless...


First, I'm not clear on whether the guy in the article is taking into account we're talking about a wooden ship from the 1800s (and if he somehow knows about those type of ships).

He says the ship could have been left "fairly intact". There's no indication that they showed him screen shots of The Black Rock. I would guess that they did not. In looking at The Black Rock, I would not describe it as fairly intact. I would actually describe it as being in excellent condition.

In looking at the screen shots of The Black Rock, all of the ship's masts look perfect and unbroken. The rigging is even still on the masts. Anytime we are in The Black Rock, it's dark. There doesn't seem to be much damage if any to the front of the ship.

Also, he doesn't seem to know that it ended up 10 miles inland after somehow managing to go over mountainous terrain.

Oh wow, a popular mechanics article! I wondered if they'd adress this. Gotta love those guys!! Thanks to whomever posted that.

I tried to delete my post to add to it but you had already quoted it. Regardless...


First, I'm not clear on whether the guy in the article is taking into account we're talking about a wooden ship from the 1800s (and if he somehow knows about those type of ships).

He says the ship could have been left "fairly intact". There's no indication that they showed him screen shots of The Black Rock. I would guess that they did not. In looking at The Black Rock, I would not describe it as fairly intact. I would actually describe it as being in excellent condition.

In looking at the screen shots of The Black Rock, all of the ship's masts look perfect and unbroken. The rigging is even still on the masts. Anytime we are in The Black Rock, it's dark. There doesn't seem to be much damage if any to the front of the ship.

Also, he doesn't seem to know that it ended up 10 miles inland after somehow managing to go over mountainous terrain.

No the ship hit the statue on the left cheek. The right side of the ship struck the ship. Since the ship was not traveling directly at the statue, the damage was localized to the front right of the ship. Sure, it's probably got a gaping hole in it, but not much more. And we've always seen the ship from the back left or left side. We've never seen the point where it contacted the ship. The masts would be fine. They're built to withstand pretty crazy weather. I'm thinking the guy that does the articles watches the show. I read them quite a bit back during the season 5 days and they had a pretty good grasp of what was going on, beyond the science breakdown of what they were talking about in the articles.

I think everyone is missing the point that the article says the wave had to be a tsunami wave or a hurricane surge, not a storm wave, to make the stuff possible:

The keywords here are tsunami and storm surge—and this is where Lost gets it wrong. The Black Rock appears to be carried onto the island on the crest of a wave. "Storm waves can crest quite high, but they don't penetrate far inland," Synolakis says. "In this regard, once on land, tsunamis do not have crests; they either resemble fast ebbing or receding tides or, more rarely, bores. For a ship to hit a statue and penetrate far inland, it would have to have been carried by a tsunami or a hurricane surge, not by a storm wave."


But, like I said, I can roll with the crazy. I just care about how the characters are affected and react within the confines of the crazy world.

I think everyone is missing the point that the article says the wave had to be a tsunami wave or a hurricane surge, not a storm wave, to make the stuff possible:



But, like I said, I can roll with the crazy. I just care about how the characters are affected and react within the confines of the crazy world.

Yeah I agree here completely. The ship's damage is covered, it's logical it's intact...I can front the writers a few miles of float on a semi-magic wave :biggrin:

I think everyone is missing the point that the article says the wave had to be a tsunami wave or a hurricane surge, not a storm wave, to make the stuff possible:


yep, this was my point in the OP. which is why i assume there was intervention by MiB or The Island.

thanks for posting the article for confirmation.

Yeah I agree here completely. The ship's damage is covered, it's logical it's intact...I can front the writers a few miles of float on a semi-magic wave :biggrin:

They also said the wave had to be tsunami or hurracaine storm surge for it to be possible for the boat to topple the statue. A ship carried by storm wave doesn't make it possible, according to PM, because a storm wave doesn't have the required "hydraulic bores".

The hydraulic bores caused by tsunamis and the storm surges caused by hurricanes are capable of impressive force

So, they are basically saying that a storm wave like the one we saw in Ab Aeterno doesn't have enough hydraulic bore to cause the destruction of the statue OR to carry the boat inland.

Just sayin' :)

Another easy way it could have been edited better if they just added in a scene where the guys on the boat are screaming "we're headed for the statue" or something similar. It just too abrupt in the show. I'm fine with it now though.

They also said the wave had to be tsunami or hurracaine storm surge for it to be possible for the boat to topple the statue. A ship carried by storm wave doesn't make it possible, according to PM, because a storm wave doesn't have the required "hydraulic bores".



So, they are basically saying that a storm wave like the one we saw in Ab Aeterno doesn't have enough hydraulic bore to cause the destruction of the statue OR to carry the boat inland.

Just sayin' :)


Yeah, what I mean to say is that the whole idea is possible, so I have no issue with the fact that it may or may not have been the right type of wave. And (this is not my field at all and I know nothing about it lol) I did a quick look of a storm surge and it apparently is generated from a tropical cyclone, due to the low pressure under the eye allowing the water level to raise slightly and the wind from the higher pressure area is pushing the water into that low pressure area at a very high rate, which gives it the surge when they overlap. The island does have some kind of radius that we have often seen weather systems in, so there's a number of different waves where it COULD have been a storm wave (time slip, etc), that have already been discussed.

Also, the ship did change direction and rotate as well as rise, so there was possibly the appearance of a surge. But regardless of whether it was anything above or just a plain old storm wave that couldn't do it, it covers the argument of COULD it have destroyed the statue, and it's been resoundingly answered yes all around. If they got just the wave wrong, no biggie. But they may have even gotten the wave right, from a certain point of view. :biggrin:

What's to say there wasn't a tsunami?
Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands experienced damaging tsunamis in 1867 (http://wcatwc.arh.noaa.gov/faq/frequently.php)

What's to say there wasn't a tsunami?
Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands experienced damaging tsunamis in 1867 (http://wcatwc.arh.noaa.gov/faq/frequently.php)



What does a tsunami look like when it reaches shore?


Normally, a tsunami appears as a rapidly advancing or receding tide.
It some cases a bore (wall of water) or series of breaking waves may form.



I think that's the reason they are saying it's not a Tsunami. The Black rock wave was as high as the shoulder of the statue, but that was the highest point (the ship was rocking up and down through multiple waves), although you could take issue with the term 'normally' in relation to this show. :biggrin:

This thread is hillarious!

The CGI guys were told "We need the ship to hit the statue, and hit it high so leverage can topple it" and they did.

I doubt they worried much about the dynamics of it...

Its amazing that THIS one thing is so unbelievable on LOST...lol

This thread is hillarious!

The CGI guys were told "We need the ship to hit the statue, and hit it high so leverage can topple it" and they did.

I doubt they worried much about the dynamics of it...

Its amazing that THIS one thing is so unbelievable on LOST...lol

First, it's more of an intellectual exercise for some of us...for others it was (until it was proven possible) a quest to have one more example to point to to say "SLOPPY WRITING THIS SHOW SUX", etc. Not sure how it got so huge, but a lot of people have been drawn to it for a variety of reasons.

As for the CGI guys, yeah, that's probably exactly how it came down, but that CGI works on math and physics. If you've ever played a modern computer game, you have an understanding of that. While the guys are just making the wave bigger, the computer is determining the physical responses of the models they build, then it skins it. The CGI complaints are always based on what something looked like (generally the textures) and almost never the physics. Physical actions and reactions are very easy to simulate on a computer.

What does a tsunami look like when it reaches shore?


Normally, a tsunami appears as a rapidly advancing or receding tide.
It some cases a bore (wall of water) or series of breaking waves may form.



I think that's the reason they are saying it's not a Tsunami. The Black rock wave was as high as the shoulder of the statue, but that was the highest point (the ship was rocking up and down through multiple waves), although you could take issue with the term 'normally' in relation to this show. :biggrin:



What is a tsunami?


A tsunami is a series of waves with a long wavelength and period (time between crests) generated by a large, impulsive displacement of sea water.
Time between crests of the wave can vary from a few minutes to over an hour, but generally are in the range of 15 to 25 minutes.
Tsunamis are often incorrectly called tidal waves; they have no relation to the daily ocean tides.


How big is a tsunami?


Tsunamis range in size from inches to over a hundred feet.
In deep water (greater than 600 feet), tsunamis are rarely over 3 feet and will not be noticed by ships due to their long period (time between crests).
As tsunamis propagate into shallow water, the wave height can increase by over 10 times.
Tsunami heights vary greatly along a coast.The waves can be amplified by shoreline and bathymetric (sea floor) features.
A large tsunami can flood low-lying coastal land over a mile from the coast.



Besides that a Tsunam can occur during a storm.

Game engines apply physics in video games. The base software used (3ds max and Maya) provide the assets.
In visuals like TV, game engines arent used, but Cinematic software is.
The physics are available (reactor) in the base software, but not used on a shot of no "effect" to it's cause.


Well, I teach CGI and Game level design so I know all this.

But, I highly doubt Reactor physics were incorporated for a few second visual shot.

But I can appreciate the intellectual discussion on it, rather than the hate that has filled this board lately.

Here's another variable to throw in the mix... just for fun :biggrin:

We know the island exists within some kind of "time bubble" as shown by Faraday's rocket experiment and from Desmond's circling of the snow globe in the Elizabeth.

We saw the Ajira flight approach the time bubble by night and it became daylight when it passed inside the bubble.

Maybe there's something about this "bubble" that can whip up some extraordinarily wild storms and strong waves? Maybe the water inside the bubble is isolated from the rest of the ocean? In other words, maybe the normal rules of storms and types of waves don't apply??

EDIT: In fact for all we know the island may have it's own weather system??

Game engines apply physics in video games. The base software used (3ds max and Maya) provide the assets.
In visuals like TV, game engines arent used, but Cinematic software is.
The physics are available (reactor) in the base software, but not used on a shot of no "effect" to it's cause.


Well, I teach CGI and Game level design so I know all this.

But, I highly doubt Reactor physics were incorporated for a few second visual shot.

But I can appreciate the intellectual discussion on it, rather than the hate that has filled this board lately.


Ah thanks for the correction..I'd assumed it would just be easier for anything motion-wise to incorporate basic physical computations in there.

Also, he doesn't seem to know that it ended up 10 miles inland after somehow managing to go over mountainous terrain.
The maps you are refering to are just guesses. At no point on the show do they infer that that ship is 10 miles inland.

I'm thinking the guy that does the articles watches the show. I read them quite a bit back during the season 5 days and they had a pretty good grasp of what was going on, beyond the science breakdown of what they were talking about in the articles.

I don't think so. I looked at the other Lost articles and searched the PM site for his name. The only place it shows up is in this article.



No the ship hit the statue on the left cheek. The right side of the ship struck the ship. Since the ship was not traveling directly at the statue, the damage was localized to the front right of the ship. Sure, it's probably got a gaping hole in it, but not much more. And we've always seen the ship from the back left or left side. We've never seen the point where it contacted the ship. The masts would be fine. They're built to withstand pretty crazy weather.



So you think the ship would just have a gaping hole in the front right and the guy in PM says the ship would be "fairly intact". Again, I really don't think that PM guy saw the screenshots of the ship sitting in the middle of the island and I don't think he's seen inside the ship as they've shown on numerous occasions. While I realize we don't see the point of impact, "fairly intact" isn't how I would describe the ship. Also, this doesn't seem to take into account the collision with the statue wasn't the only thing to happen to the ship.

Yeah I agree here completely. The ship's damage is covered, it's logical it's intact...I can front the writers a few miles of float on a semi-magic wave


I disagree that the ship's damage is covered.

So it collides with the statue which creates a gaping hole on the right front... and then it travels over motunainous terrain (on what, a bigger wave?)... and 10 miles into the jungle?

It does all this with it's masts unbroken, rigging perfectly fine, and only suffers a gaping hole? So the hole doesn't allow water into the ship? It just floats 10 miles over mountains with a hole in it? The crew isn't drowned and actually seem to have no injuries.


You really think that's logical? I honestly wouldn't even consider it possible. Unless of course we chalk it all up to "magic" which seems to be Lindelof and Cuse's way out of explaining something and allows them to evade logic and do whatever they want.





Its amazing that THIS one thing is so unbelievable on LOST...lol

Yeah, so anything goes! No logic and no explanations are needed. Everything is magic.






The maps you are refering to are just guesses. At no point on the show do they infer that that ship is 10 miles inland.


I was sure to search around to get that figure. I don't think the maps are "just guesses". They seem to be well thought out. A lot of people put a lot of time into that stuff. From what I saw, I trusted the people who came up with the maps and that number. If you want to prove them wrong, please explain why 10 miles is wrong instead of just declaring that it's a guess. I'll be happy to change it but until you can tell them why they're wrong, I'm going with 10 miles.

I don't think so. I looked at the other Lost articles and searched the PM site for his name. The only place it shows up is in this article.
Are you talking about Erin McCarthy? If so, how did you search? Because she wrote this one (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4347785.html), this one (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/reviews/4347075.html), this one (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/health_medicine/4346328.html), this one (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/reviews/4345540.html), this one (http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/technology_news/4334205.html), this one (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4302606.html), this one (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/research/4300774.html)....ooo, here's her article from the season three finale (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/4217213.html). And here's (http://www.popularmechanics.com/blogs/science_news/4303497.html) her interview with Daniel Dae Kim.

I'd post the rest I found, but I've copy/pasted enough. You search for the rest.

If you're talking about the engineer, the question in the article is "Could a wooden ship really take out a stone statue? And would it leave the ship largely intact?" I assume this is what they asked him.

At this point, it sounds to me like you want to be angry with the writing. People present you with expert testimony that at least under extreme conditions it's feasible, and rather than consider it, you try punching holes in it.

In any case, it's far, FAR less ridiculous than even one person surviving the plane crash we saw at the beginning of season three, so I'm fine with it. If you got past the pilot episode, I don't know why this is such an issue.

It's just me....and him....nothing dead will go. But we have Terminator 2

Ash came to the cabin with four others.... But we have Evil Dead 2

It's just a rehash of Dances With Wolves....But we have Avatar.

The Wave....Yes, from out of nowhere...and the Black Rock...BROKE THE STATUE!

It's done. We saw it. It happened. It's on record. Let's look at the replay...It's done.

Physics, logistics, linguistics, agnostics, pickupsticks.....Whether you think it plausible or not....the question is answered. I was happy just to get that. We could have got "Dunno"

Are you talking about Erin McCarthy?

No.

Sorry you wasted your time with the links.



If you're talking about the engineer, the question in the article is "Could a wooden ship really take out a stone statue? And would it leave the ship largely intact?" I assume this is what they asked him.

Yes, I was talking about the engineer.

You say you assume that's what they asked him. That's part of what I'm questioning. What exactly did they ask and what details of the ship's condition and it's final location does he know. It's one thing to say the ship would have been "fairly intact", and it's another to see pictures of the ship and say that the damage (or lack thereof) is consistent with hitting the statue and being carried 250 feet in the air.

It's also relevant that the ship somehow managed to go over mountainous terrain and settle 10 miles from shore. Does the PM engineer know that? Was he asked if the ship (with a hole in it from the statue collision) could have done that? I don't think that he was asked or knew. The article does say, "It's also totally feasible that the Black Rock would end up on land, away from the shore." but doesn't give any other info.

The PM engineer also wasn't asked if a crew could survive all of this. So most of what I said in my post wasn't covered in the PM article. They were really just interested in what kind of wave carried the ship and whether it would have been intact after the statue collision.



At this point, it sounds to me like you want to be angry with the writing.


Yeah, believe it or not, I've heard this one before. And I'm impatient, and I'm a not a real fan, and, and, and. Attacking the poster instead of replying to what's said in the post got old long ago.



People present you with expert testimony that at least under extreme conditions it's feasible, and rather than consider it, you try punching holes in it.

Rather than consider it? I believe that if you think about it you'll agree that to find fault with parts if it, I actually had to consider what it was I finding fault with.



In any case, it's far, FAR less ridiculous than even one person surviving the plane crash we saw at the beginning of season three, so I'm fine with it. If you got past the pilot episode, I don't know why this is such an issue.

I'm glad you're fine with it. But I'm not sure why you care about a thread where people have questions and are not fine with it.

You mention the pilot episode. I assume you're talking about people surviving the crash? If so, I think many people wondered (and are still wondering) how that would be explained.

Regardless, in my last post I replied to someone saying, "Its amazing that THIS one thing is so unbelievable on LOST...lol". It seems that your saying pretty much the same thing. So my answer is the same.

No.

Sorry you wasted your time with the links.
No big deal. But when someone says
I'm thinking the guy that does the articles watches the show. I read them quite a bit back during the season 5 days and they had a pretty good grasp of what was going on, beyond the science breakdown of what they were talking about in the articles.and you reply
I don't think so. I looked at the other Lost articles and searched the PM site for his name. The only place it shows up is in this article.I think you can see where someone might get confused.

You say you assume that's what they asked him. That's part of what I'm questioning. What exactly did they ask and what details of the ship's condition and it's final location does he know. It's one thing to say the ship would have been "fairly intact", and it's another to see pictures of the ship and say that the damage (or lack thereof) is consistent with hitting the statue and being carried 250 feet in the air.

It's also relevant that the ship somehow managed to go over mountainous terrain and settle 10 miles from shore. Does the PM engineer know that? Was he asked if the ship (with a hole in it from the statue collision) could have done that? I don't think that he was asked or knew. The article does say, "It's also totally feasible that the Black Rock would end up on land, away from the shore." but doesn't give any other info.

The PM engineer also wasn't asked if a crew could survive all of this. So most of what I said in my post wasn't covered in the PM article. They were really just interested in what kind of wave carried the ship and whether it would have been intact after the statue collision.I agree it doesn't answer everything. It only goes so far as to say it isn't impossible.

As for the 10 miles thing, my understanding is that's based on one fan's map. Is that right? Maybe I missed something.

Yeah, believe it or not, I've heard this one before. And I'm impatient, and I'm a not a real fan, and, and, and. Attacking the poster instead of replying to what's said in the post got old long ago. I'm just saying that all arguments with some posters seem to fall on deaf ears. Choosing the fan map that makes the scenario seem most ridiculous to support your argument seem like an agenda to me.

Rather than consider it? I believe that if you think about it you'll agree that to find fault with parts if it, I actually had to consider what it was I finding fault with.I guess I'm just willing to suspend disbelief higher than you are. It's been several seasons since I decided less-than-inconceivable is good enough on this show.

And maybe that's the difference. Some of us are willing to accept unlikely-but-plausible, some of us insist on likely.

I'm glad you're fine with it. But I'm not sure why you care about a thread where people have questions and are not fine with it. You mention the pilot episode. I assume you're talking about people surviving the crash? If so, I think many people wondered (and are still wondering) how that would be explained.

Regardless, in my last post I replied to someone saying, "Its amazing that THIS one thing is so unbelievable on LOST...lol". It seems that your saying pretty much the same thing. So my answer is the same.I agree when those posts point to some irrelevant thing like there being a smoke monster. I contend that a boat crash and a plane crash and the aftereffects of both are at least comparable.

ETA: for the record, I truly wanted everything on the show to be rooted in science like we were originally promised. Short of it being a big computer simulation, it doesn't look that way now, but I still like the story.

A wooden ship destroying a stone statue, then continuing its course onto the island does not make sense, and those things can be assessed rationally, since it's still a world that has normal physics. It literally would not happen.

Is this possible in real life? I'm not sure. Maybe, but it would have to be one helluva mega storm, not just your run of the mill rough seas... Nature is capable of some pretty crazy stuff, but I don't think what we saw constituted the largest tsunami ever.

Personally, I have seen with my own eyes a collision that seemed to defy physics nearly to the extent of the scene being referred to here: it wasn't wood vs stone, but it involved a massive SUV hitting a flimsy sub-compact car. At the point of impact the tiny riceburner just stood there, unmoving and showing no apparent damage -- while the SUV was launched into the air(!) and came barreling towards my own stopped car, bounding end over end over end (seemingly in slow motion) until it finally ground to a halt mere inches from my hood!

Combine that with the well-documented equation that tells us:

100mph gusts + impromptu projectiles often = truth-is-stranger-than-fiction results*

and I'm thoroughly convinced that the outcome of the boat vs statue match was plausible.

If it was a Tsunami, then I can see it throwing the BR 10 miles inland from the statue... considering the types of waves that hit Africa and Thailand in the big Tsunami a few years back. But if it was a hurricane or a "tidal wave" then I'm not so sure that could happen.

I'm also inclined to point out that the island can -- and apparently has -- moved about in the ocean at times, not to mention it seems to possess a similar ability to rise and sink. This could affect the positions of things on the island over time as well.

... however, if you bury a necklace a few inches in the dirt it will still be there 150 years later.

I'm pushing the relevance envelope here, but I just saw an episode of Meteorite Men where the space-rock hunters stated that in areas where the ground is fairly hard, meteorite chunks that fell to earth many thousands of years ago can still be found on the surface, rather than underground. To address the statue "crumbs" question directly, though, to me it looks like some pieces can be seen scattered about the area while the rest presumably are below the level of the water (again, see the bit about the isle's relation to sea level potentially changing).

Could the other ship have been called "The White Rock"? Could this explain the "inside joke" of the rocks on the scale?

Okay, here's my big finale (or, as some of you are no doubt muttering, my big finally!)

I already offered the following observation in my own separate thread, to which a poster named rocker replied incredulously: "With all the posts on the boat hitting the statue, no one ever brought this up. Now I feel like they hit me over the head with a big stick and I never noticed such an obvious thing! Great catch!"

All right -- here it is:

The statue itself was the "white rock", and, very significantly, it was destroyed by the arrival of the Black Rock!.

As far as over-the-top gestures of "my side beat your side" between our two larger-than-life combatants go, this would've been a heckuva big one!!!

-- mnw

*(For the curious, wind-powered destruction:
Concrete structure 86ed by wind alone (http://www.stormeyes.org/tornado/SkyPix/belltwr.htm)
Things driven through other things (http://www.stormeyes.org/tornado/SkyPix/palm1x4.htm)
And a pair of grounded (http://www.stormeyes.org/tornado/SkyPix/surged.htm)boats (http://www.stormeyes.org/tornado/SkyPix/sailboat.htm))

I agree it doesn't answer everything. It only goes so far as to say it isn't impossible.


My point was that is doesn't answer everything because it doesn't seem to take a number of things into consideration.




As for the 10 miles thing, my understanding is that's based on one fan's map. Is that right? Maybe I missed something.


I obviously wasn't going to start researching where everything is located on the island and search through past episodes to find out how far one thing is from another, how long it takes to get here from there, etc. I found that other fans have done this. I did some searching and reading and used their info. If someone wants to research all this and prove them wrong, please feel free. I'm going with 10 miles. Even if they were off a mile or two, I don't see a big deal.




I'm just saying that all arguments with some posters seem to fall on deaf ears. Choosing the fan map that makes the scenario seem most ridiculous to support your argument seem like an agenda to me.


You've read some of my other posts right? You may disagree with me but you can probably tell I'm not stupid. I'm not going to deliberately pick a map that gives me 10 miles if other maps said 3. I know how this forum works and I'm used to people jumping on my back.




I guess I'm just willing to suspend disbelief higher than you are. It's been several seasons since I decided less-than-inconceivable is good enough on this show.

And maybe that's the difference. Some of us are willing to accept unlikely-but-plausible, some of us insist on likely.


That's fine. It sounds like maybe at some point you lowered your expectations. There's nothing wrong with that. I wish I was thrilled with Lost. I envy fans like you in many ways.

But again, if I was happy with Lost, I wouldn't care who wasn't. I don't understand why those are are happy are so bothered by those who aren't.



I agree when those posts point to some irrelevant thing like there being a smoke monster. I contend that a boat crash and a plane crash and the aftereffects of both are at least comparable.

ETA: for the record, I truly wanted everything on the show to be rooted in science like we were originally promised. Short of it being a big computer simulation, it doesn't look that way now, but I still like the story.


I agree. I expected most things to be rooted in science as we were told. I didn't expect magic demi-gods, a magic lighthouse with magic mirrors, a magic touch that stopped aging, a magic smoke monster, a magic frozen donkey wheel... and now a seemingly magic wave. Like most fans, I expected that once we were given an answer we could look back and see how it added up and see that there was a plan. Can anyone say that about the broken statue/Black Rock stuff?

All this "magic" makes answering questions pretty easy and makes any past theorizing completely pointless.

All this "magic" makes answering questions pretty easy and makes any past theorizing completely pointless.

Cell phones would have been considered magic 100 years ago. A famous author (I think Arthur C Clark) once said something to the effect that advanced science and technology are indistinguishable from magic.

I agree. I expected most things to be rooted in science as we were told.

Well, we were told a bit more than that. I remembered that during the hiatus between seasons 1 and 2 there was am interview in Sci Fi Wire magazine were David Fury talked about some of this.

I went to the "What They Said" thread here on the Fuse, where there's a link to the interview, but the link is now dead. So, I went to Sci Fi Wire's website, but I couldn't find it in there either. I searched their archives, but it seems they don't keep anything older than two years.

Fortunately, Bing and Google are our friends and I did find a site where someone had quoted Fury's interview before Sci Fi Wire took it down.

The quote is:

Despite the surreal, bizarre aspects of the island, there will be an explanation for it. It may not come for a very long time, but certain information about the island will explain how things are possible. We'll try to root it in real science or real pseudo-science.

The page is here (http://www.loststudies.com/caves/the_caves_148.html), if anyone wants to check it out.

The operative term in the quote is pseudo-science. And they used it early enough. As I've pointed out before, pseudo-science includes anything from psychic powers to ghosts, zombies, vampires, aliens and anything in between.

So, basically they were saying: anything goes. Way back before S2 even aired.

I used to be bothered by some of the more outlandish stuff too, but I guess I realized that they actually covered every base when they used that term, and I decided not to be bothered by it anymore.

CrazyLatin007, I'd also like to add this note:
Despite the surreal, bizarre aspects of the island, there will be an explanation for it. It may not come for a very long time, but certain information about the island will explain how things are possible. We'll try to root it in real science or real pseudo-science. The words bolded more than imply that certain aspects of the story will go beyond even theoretical science.

As for what waves can do: there is an island out in the Atlantic that is really nothing more than rock rising over 120 above sea level. On top of this rock are several railroad containers that had been lost from a freighter caught in a storm.

As for the statue. It is evident from the base that it is an assemblage, not a solid thing chiseled from a rock formation. All the wave/ship has to do is knock the pieces apart. From pieces was it made and into pieces it will return.
There was a scene showing the pieces strewn about the area.

I think most fans dont mind this kind of suspension of disbelief when we get such a great answer for an ancient mystery on this show.

The fact is that the statue was toppled down by the Black Rock during a storm, which also made it crash some miles inland, and thats all there is to it.
Of course that nature of the storm and what ultimatly made the statue break can come into question, but its not hard to find a feasible explanation to it, as many posters already did.

The ship couldve been that extra force needed to crack the foundations of that statue, adding the huge wave it was riding on. Plus, the storm couldve brought several more waves of the same height to the shore, making the statue to ultimatly collapse.
And as we havent seen the entirety of the ship after its crash, so we cant really know what damage been done to it..

Well, we were told a bit more than that. I remembered that during the hiatus between seasons 1 and 2 there was am interview in Sci Fi Wire magazine were David Fury talked about some of this.

The quote is:

"Despite the surreal, bizarre aspects of the island, there will be an explanation for it. It may not come for a very long time, but certain information about the island will explain how things are possible. We'll try to root it in real science or real pseudo-science."


The operative term in the quote is pseudo-science. And they used it early enough. As I've pointed out before, pseudo-science includes anything from psychic powers to ghosts, zombies, vampires, aliens and anything in between.

So, basically they were saying: anything goes. Way back before S2 even aired.

I used to be bothered by some of the more outlandish stuff too, but I guess I realized that they actually covered every base when they used that term, and I decided not to be bothered by it anymore.




First, the operative term is "real pseudo-science". He does make the distinction. Also, Fury goes on to say in that quote, "There will be no mystical reason or an island of monsters." "No mystical reason"? Fury, writer and co-executive producer, seems sure of that. Taking into account those two points, "real pseudo-science" and "no mystical reason", I have a hard time seeing how you reached the conclusion that "anything goes".

I would like to be wrong but I think we definitely have some bizarre pseudo-science and a whole lot of mystical mumbo jumbo going on. Do you really think Fury would have said what he did if there was a plan at that time for Jacob and the MIB?

Also, take what Fury said above and compare it to what he said in Rolling Stone in 2005, "On a show like Lost, it becomes a great big shaggy-dog story," he continues cheerily. "They keep saying there's meaning in everything, and I'm here to tell you no - a lot of things are just arbitrary. What I always tried to do to do was connect these random elements, to create the illusion that it was all adding up to something."

What I think happened to Lindelof and Cuse is that they threw in too much arbitrary stuff and got in way over their heads. I would even bet that they had a general plan but changed their minds and threw in Jacob and the MIB (and somewhat sidelined Dharma). So now in order to explain things they have to either- not explain it or rely on fringe pseudo-science, a whole lot of mystical stuff, and "magic".


As I said before, does anyone see any evidence that these "answers" concerning the Black Rock and the statue were planned? It seems to me that Lindelof and Cuse had no plan for How the Black Rock got 10 miles inland and how the statue broke. I don't know when they decided to piece this together but it was late in the game.

If they knew how The Black Rock came ashore they could have shown it in The Incident and at the end of the scene shown Jacob looking up into the sky and it getting dark. That would have been very easy to do and taken a few seconds.

They could have had The Black Rock be much more damaged , broken the masts and rigging, and shown damage to the front. Although I know we never actually see the front, we do see inside where it's pitch black. There's no indication of damage to the front.

Also, they could have had The Black Rock be closer to shore instead of 10 miles inland and having somehow traveled OVER mountainous terrain.

There's no such thing as real pseudo-science. It's either pseudo-science or it isn't. It's like being pregnant. You either are or you're not. You can't be a little bit pregnant.

I think Jacob and MIB were part of the plan all along, and Dharma was always a distraction.

I don't know if the original plan was to have the Black Rock topple the statue, but I don't think it matters. All of the mythology was and always has been a distraction to make time because they didn't want to reveal the main story too soon. When I look at it that way, everything they have done makes perfect sense.

When I think of pseudo-science I think of space ships, faster than light drives, teleporters, etc. AKA - there is a scientific explanation even though that explanation may not be scientific fact for real.

I wouldn't consider magic, gods, etc. to fall into that catagory.

The BR destroying the statue makes little sense to me....

I mean, wood vs. stone and wood wins? Really?


How about frozen water vs. steel? You think steel? Tell that to the people on the Titanic.

I'm getting really sick of all this "I want answers, I want answers", then "I don't like the answers, I don't like the answers."

There's no such thing as real pseudo-science. It's either pseudo-science or it isn't. It's like being pregnant. You either are or you're not. You can't be a little bit pregnant.

You missed my point. Fury made a distinction by saying "real pseudo-science". He didn't just say pseudo-science. So obviously in Fury's mind the realm of pseudo-science has things that are more real, or more likely, than other things considered pseudo-science.

And again, he also went on to say "There will be no mystical reason". So again, I think your conclusion that somehow "anything goes" is wrong.



I think Jacob and MIB were part of the plan all along, and Dharma was always a distraction.

You may be right. However, without going into it, there is already a lot of debate about what seems to be inconsistencies involving Jacob, the cabin, etc. If Dharma was just a distraction, that was a pretty big unresolved distraction.



I don't know if the original plan was to have the Black Rock topple the statue, but I don't think it matters.

As I said, I can't see any evidence of it being a plan and there is plenty of evidence that suggests it wasn't. Does it matter? If they can pull it off without a large segment of the audience thinking it's not ridiculous, then maybe not. However, the thought that they didn't have it planned, makes we wonder what else wasn't planned and is going to be swept under the rug or not make sense.



All of the mythology was and always has been a distraction to make time because they didn't want to reveal the main story too soon. When I look at it that way, everything they have done makes perfect sense.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. You said Dharma was a distraction and now you say all of the mythology has been a distraction? Take away all of the mythology and what are you left with? Sawyer and Kate making monkey love in a cage? I don't understand how you think you can separate the mythology from the main story. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
100%

I'm getting really sick of all this "I want answers, I want answers", then "I don't like the answers, I don't like the answers."


Yeah, because that's exactly what fans are saying. They want all the answers now, they're impatient, they don't get it... those bogus refrains were old long ago. I guess it's always easy to try and attack the people instead of discussing the actual criticisms.

When I think of pseudo-science I think of space ships, faster than light drives, teleporters, etc. AKA - there is a scientific explanation even though that explanation may not be scientific fact for real.

I wouldn't consider magic, gods, etc. to fall into that catagory.

From Merriam-Webster's dictionary (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pseudo-science):
A system of theories, assumptions, and methods erroneously regarded as scientific
From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudo-science):
Pseudoscience is a methodology, belief, or practice that is claimed to be scientific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific), or that is made to appear to be scientific, but which does not adhere to an appropriate scientific methodology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method), lacks supporting evidence or plausibility, or otherwise lacks scientific status.

From biocarb.org (http://www.biocab.org/Pseudoscience.html):
For instance, as pseudoscientists are incompetent to conceive how Egyptians constructed the pyramids, the pseudoscientists cooked up the fallacy on the help of Aliens (Extraterrestrials) that were the constructors of the tombs.

Another hoax is a feature of the insidious idea that the arrangement of the stars, perceived by humans as identifiable images (zodiac) thanks to our vast imagination and a normal mental trouble known as pareidolia, provokes a straight consequence in the life and fate of living beings on Earth (astrology), especially in humans’ life.

Pseudoscientists say, by means of their false standards, that paranormal experiences are out from the scope of scientists.
From almostscience.com (http://almostscience.com/specialitiesofpseudoscience.html) (some of the things included in pseudo-science):
Parapsychology, Numerology, Graphology, Alchemy, Astrology
From an article in the Orlando Sentinel (http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2006-11-03/news/DIAZ03_1_efthimiou-vampires-applied-logic) (about a Physics professor [Efthimiou] from the University of Central Florida. In the article, you get what the National Science Foundation calls pseudo-science):
You may wonder what, ahem, possessed Efthimiou to delve into the supernatural.

Trying to develop more-engaging physical-science courses, he came up with variations that he calls "flavors." One was sci-fi; another was superheroes in movies. A pseudoscience featuring black magic, zombies, vampires and ghosts also came into the mix.

There is a strong attraction to pseudoscience. A study by the National Science Foundation shows that at least half of the public believes in extrasensory perception. One-third believe that "extraterrestrial beings have visited Earth at some time in the past." And a quarter to more than half of those surveyed believe in haunted houses and ghosts, faith healing, and communication with the dead.
100%
There you go, as you can see ghosts, zombies, vampires, black magic, aliens, etc. are considered pseudo-science too!
100%
You missed my point. Fury made a distinction by saying "real pseudo-science". He didn't just say pseudo-science. So obviously in Fury's mind the realm of pseudo-science has things that are more real, or more likely, than other things considered pseudo-science.

And how do we know what Fury considers more real? How do we know that what he consideres more likely is what we would consider more likely? For all we know, in Fury's mind vampires are real pseudo-science and aliens are not.

The point is, once they used that term, anything goes, because I have no way of knowing what the writers consider to be real pseudo-science.

And again, he also went on to say "There will be no mystical reason". So again, I think your conclusion that somehow "anything goes" is wrong.

Yeah, and Damon said there would be no time traveling :rolleyes: (also on a sci fi wire interview). They lied. And they lied a lot after season one. The network was very nervous about Lost because it was the most costly pilot and series at the time and because sci-fi shows have a very bad track record ratings wise with very few of them able to hang on to a sizable audience, as opposed to dramas or comedies, which usually outperform sci-fi and have a higher success rate. They wanted to keep the cat in the bag for as long as possible.

However, when time traveling made an appearance most internet fans were ecstatic. Not a one seemed to care that they lied. But many were not happy about that. I wasn't. I don't like time traveling, and I don't see what it has brought to the show that couldn't have been done without it. But, the mythology wasn't the reason I watched, and I can debate the mechanics and details of time traveling with anyone, if I need to. So, I chose to enjoy it, and get into the discussion, rather than let it annoy me and interfere with my enjoyment of the characters.

Now that it seems they lied about the mystical/religious aspects, a portion of the audience is not satisfied. But it's exactly the same situation.

They lied about that too. That's the way it is. I'm not going to get all bent out of shape because some guys in the television industry lied to me. If that had been someone close to me (family, partner, friend, employees), then I'd probably react differently. But these guys? Not worth the trouble to get upset.

As I said, I can't see any evidence of it being a plan and there is plenty of evidence that suggests it wasn't. Does it matter? If they can pull it off without a large segment of the audience thinking it's not ridiculous, then maybe not. However, the thought that they didn't have it planned, makes we wonder what else wasn't planned and is going to be swept under the rug or not make sense.

A lot, would be my guess. The main story here is what is the Losties destiny? What is it that they were brought to that island to do? And once they figure out what that is, will they succeed? Anything else is window dressing.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. You said Dharma was a distraction and now you say all of the mythology has been a distraction? Take away all of the mythology and what are you left with? Sawyer and Kate making monkey love in a cage? I don't understand how you think you can separate the mythology from the main story. That makes absolutely no sense to me.

Easy. Like this:

The main conflict of this show is the battle between Jacob and MIB, and the reason the Losties are on the island is because they play a part in that battle. That's it. Everything else is optional. For some it's the icing on the cake because they find the optional stuff very interesting; for others, it's terrible because after 5 years we still don't know why the Losties were chosen or what their purpose is, and the reason why there's a battle between Jacob and MIB is fuzzy.


Let's make a few changes to the stories we saw in S1:

Introduce Ben and the Others in episode 6
Jacob/MIB conversation about finding a loophole in episode 12
Ben kills Locke in episode 13
Locke "resurrects" in episode 14
Ben kills Jacob in episode 18, when it is revealed that resurrected Locke = MIB = Smokey
Episodes 19-22 explain why Jacob/MIB are in conflict and the characters progressively discover why they have to play a part in the final conflict (I'm guessing they will have to somehow save the world)
Episodes 23-24: Final battle and story resolution.
If you were a regular viewer, and you only saw the story I outlined above in 24 episodes, you'd know exactly what Lost was about, and you'd understand the main story. We don't need Dharma, the pregnancy issue, the polar bears, time traveling, the Hurley bird, Annie, Libby, or an alternate/parallel reality to tell this story.
All of the mythology is a red herring, pretty much like Locke was a red herring.

100%
There you go, as you can see ghosts, zombies, vampires, black magic, aliens, etc. are considered pseudo-science too!

Well I was talking about what I consider not exactly definitions.

That said, most of the definitions you listed go along with what I said.

They lied. And they lied a lot after season one.


And if they hadn't - most of the mystery would have been destroyed and there would have been no reason to watch. I'm glad they lied.

it was clearly the wave and not the ship alone that crushed the statue. a wave that tall could certainly do that

Arzt tought it was a tsunami. Plus it was only a couple of miles inland.

"Exodus"
ARZT: Hold on, wait, hold on. Hold, wait. What are we a couple miles inland? [to Danielle] A tsunami probably swept it here, huh, right?

The statue itself was the "white rock", and, very significantly, it was destroyed by the arrival of the Black Rock!.



I like that!:)

I think smokey destroyed the statue. That wave was crazy big, probably too big to occur naturally. So Jacob is bringing yet more people to the island. MiB doesn't seem to care for such things. Ok, if these people are coming, let's really go nuts with getting them there. As a sort of spit in your eye thing, MiB causes the huge wave aimed directly at Jacobs place. Really, what are the odds that 1) we'd have such a monstrous wave and 2) it would just happen to hit the statue?

Jacob sends MiB a little white rock he got from the rubble of the statue as a "present". More of a, "I know what you did" thing with other inside joke qualities. Perhaps a "it was magic" explanation, but at least more of the same surrounding MiB and what he can do. I don't believe Jacob would knock down his own statue just to get more people to the island.

I think smokey destroyed the statue.

Thats kind of fun to think about. Jacob ends up with Richard and MIB ends up with Locke. That is when you think Jacob brought Locke and co and MIB brought Richard and co.

MIBs team sort of sucked then...because "and Co." for his team were a bunch of Smokified Brits, and a bunch of stabbed Spaniards. Not much of a team. If you interpret things as that ship in the clear weather to be the Black Rock that crashed in a storm, you'd have to think that Jacob brought it. On the other hand, he's sort of a dolt because he smashed his own *snicker* house. (who lives in a foot at the water line? I mean, really?)

Would midichlorians be pseudo-science? What if we learn Jacob and MiB have midichlorians, the smoke is a cloud of midichlorians, and Jacob can transfer his midichlorians with a touch. Is it now pseudo-science?

That would be dumb science, DP2. And the PTBs have oft related the search for answers that fans have done as the search for midichlorians.

The BR destroying the statue makes little sense to me....

I mean, wood vs. stone and wood wins? Really?

Depending on the trajectory, yes. It could have hit it at a point where it simply toppled over. When my dad was a kid in Oklahoma, he survived a tornado that drove tiny broom sticks into a telephone pole. I've seen a massive 300 year old oak tree flung across my front yard during a tornado in Georgia. Wind and water can be major forces under the right circumstances.

Depending on the trajectory, yes. It could have hit it at a point where it simply toppled over. When my dad was a kid in Oklahoma, he survived a tornado that drove tiny broom sticks into a telephone pole. I've seen a massive 300 year old oak tree flung across my front yard during a tornado in Georgia. Wind and water can be major forces under the right circumstances.


Just look at the Grand Canyon as what water can accomplish or for that matter any hurricane. The wind and water really didn't need the boat to accomplish knocking over the statue, it might have just aided it.

Ever play pool? The ship simply hit the statue's sweet spot.

Arzt tought it was a tsunami. Plus it was only a couple of miles inland.

"Exodus"

ARZT: Hold on, wait, hold on. Hold, wait. What are we a couple miles inland? [to Danielle] A tsunami probably swept it here, huh, right?


Honest question for you all, How many thought Arzt's answer was reasonable at the time? How many thought the answer was absurd?

Because I don't recall a lot of people explaining the Black Rock as "Arzt was right" over the years.
100%
Ever play pool? The ship simply hit the statue's sweet spot.

Yes, and I'm fairly decent at it. I've even had the priviledge of shooting with a pro player and working with several master instructors. I have no idea of what this "sweet spot" you are talking about is.

We keep thinking the ship was thrown towards the island (and statue) on a giant wave. What if the island was thrown at the ship? The sudden movement of such a large mass of land could certainly create a wave surge the size that we witnessed and could explain the ship being miles inland as the island moved under it.

I'm starting to think the MIB has the power to move the island and possibly that is what happened.

Honest question for you all, How many thought Arzt's answer was reasonable at the time? How many thought the answer was absurd?

Because I don't recall a lot of people explaining the Black Rock as "Arzt was right" over the years.

First of all I don't seem to recall anyone else asking Jack, Kate, Hurley or Danielle how the Black Rock got to be where it was. So why would his explanation be known by anyone other than the four who heard it.
Second of all I do think Artz, who was on the Island, would know better than a viewer that it was a few miles inland over it being 10 miles inland as someone else as stated.
Third do you really have to be so snarky when commenting on someone's post.

ETA
---------------------------------------------

I forgot Locke was there but when Sawyer asked him sbout the Black Rock he never asked how it got there.

"The Brig"
[In the jungle, Locke and Sawyer have finally reached their destination – the Black Rock ship]
SAWYER: Son of a...
[They head inside]
SAWYER: Nice place you got here Locke.
LOCKE: Ben's inside in the brig. You ready?
SAWYER: Yeah I'm ready.
[They move further inside the ship]
SAWYER: [Points his torch at skeletons] Friends of yours?
LOCKE: It's an old slaving ship. Mid nineteenth century. My guess is they captured the slaves and brought em here to try and mine the Island.
SAWYER: What's in the boxes?

I have to agree with NBC. on two points...

Arzt would seem to have more knowledge of how far inland they were than some fan making a map..A few miles is better than ten.

And "AreWeThereYet" is pretty darned snarkey.

How about bowling? If you hit the pins "in the pocket" you get a strike, as long as you come in on the right angle. The ship hit the statue just right...Hit the sweet spot.

Now the Wave....well the wave is speculation. As the makers declined to show anything that would hoist the ship two hundred feet in the air all of a sudden, we are only guessing from circumstantial evidence that it was a wave. I am pretty sure they meant for it to be a wave...But they really really failed in showing it. I sometimes wonder if the makers intentionally throw out the rules of proper filmic story telling just to cause this controversy.

"Your editing sucked there."

"Did it? Did it suck? Or was it Myyyssttteerrriioouuusss......?"

Arzt tought it was a tsunami. Plus it was only a couple of miles inland.

"Exodus"

ARZT: Hold on, wait, hold on. Hold, wait. What are we a couple miles inland? [to Danielle] A tsunami probably swept it here, huh, right?



Second of all I do think Artz, who was on the Island, would know better than a viewer that it was a few miles inland over it being 10 miles inland as someone else as stated.




I realize some people really want to discredit that I said the Black Rock is 10 miles away from the Statue. First, it's not my conclusion. It's based on the collaborative research of other fans who had no ulterior motives in determining the Black Rock is 10 miles away from the statue.

The fans who research the island have looked at 14 screen shots of maps shown on Lost and have gone through scripts looking for references to distances. They have quotes from episodes where characters talk about distances. The Artz quote from Exodus was taken into consideration. The two miles Artz estimates appears to be a production mistake (and certainly not the first).

The Swan Station is almost 6 1/2 miles away from the statue. The Pearl Station is almost 7 miles away from the statue. If the Black Rock is 2 miles away, the Swan and Pearl would be a short jog away. If the Black Rock is 2 miles away, to get across the island it doesn't take 2 days, it's just a few miles. Sorry, but he Black Rock is not only 2 miles away from the statue.

Finally, if the Black Rock was only 2 miles away from the statue, it wouldn't even be over the mountain range. In fact, it wouldn't even be half way up the side of the mountain.

Terrific..It's not over the mountain range. All the better, in my opinion. Makes more sense that it's on this side of the mountain range, and there's a mountain pass. Why is that so shocking?

It's a fan map. They are fun to look at...I have several on my favourites, but I know some of them are way off and that some use some spurious logic to position items. Fan maps are like fan art. They really don't mean anything within the scope of the show, they are just fun.

This is not to say that you don't go to great lengths to create them... I appreciate the effort. But which is more likely now, with the new info? Giant invisible wave threw the ship over mountains after hitting the statue, or giant invisible wave threw the boat slighly inland after hitting the statue?

First of all I don't seem to recall anyone else asking Jack, Kate, Hurley or Danielle how the Black Rock got to be where it was. So why would his explanation be known by anyone other than the four who heard it.
Second of all I do think Artz, who was on the Island, would know better than a viewer that it was a few miles inland over it being 10 miles inland as someone else as stated.
Third do you really have to be so snarky when commenting on someone's post.


I meant the fans. I don't recall many fans saying "Artz" was right at the time he made the statement or anytime after it.

I was asking what I thought was a reasonable question. When Artz said it was a tsunami that carried the ship in 2 miles I didn't believe it. I wondered if other people thought it was believable at the time. It just seems to me if everybody thought that was a reasonable answer that "how did the black rock get there" would of never been a question.

I would agree that Artz would know better than some fan drawn map.

I'm really not trying to be "snarky". Sorry, if I come accross like that but it was an honest question.

I'd say if Arzt said it was a couple miles inland, then it's probably pretty close to a couple miles inland. Fan maps mean very little.

Well then, AreWeThereYet. I chose to believe him at the time. Arzt has some buffoonic tendencies, it's no lie...But the guy wasn't dumb. That he blew himself up just meant that he grabbed a stick that was REALLY unstable, not that he was wrong. His procedure has been the procedure for dynamite right up until the Jack/Richard showdown.

Terrific..It's not over the mountain range. All the better, in my opinion. Makes more sense that it's on this side of the mountain range, and there's a mountain pass. Why is that so shocking?


You don't understand. The Black Rock can't be located on the ocean side of the first mountain range

The peak of the first mountain range is 3 1/2 miles from the statue. The Black rock is resting up on the second mountain range almost at the top so it can't be only 2 miles away from the statue which is not even over the first range.




It's a fan map. They are fun to look at...I have several on my favourites, but I know some of them are way off and that some use some spurious logic to position items. Fan maps are like fan art. They really don't mean anything within the scope of the show, they are just fun.


The maps weren't made by children on a whim. They were researched over years using 14 map screen shots from episodes and dialogue referring to distance.

If anyone wants to completely research the locations of landmarks as the people did who created these maps, please do. Show us a drawing explaining why your map is right and their maps are wrong. If you're right, I'll be happy to help contact those people and explain why they've been wrong all these years. Until then, you have no proof the Black Rock isn't 10 miles away from the statue.

How about bowling? If you hit the pins "in the pocket" you get a strike, as long as you come in on the right angle. The ship hit the statue just right...Hit the sweet spot.


So the statue had some sort of weak spot and if you hit in just the right spot it gets destroyed.

Let's assume that's the case. We still have a wave that carries a ship "a couple miles" over land, landing it in a jungle with all rigging intact, and left all the surrounding trees intact.

I'm sorry, but that isn't a believable situation using the normal laws of physics. Now if you want to say the normal laws of physics don't apply to Lost then fine. Frankly, that's the way I am looking at it.

Fan maps mean very little.


Let's make this easy. Here is a map showing the statue and Black Rock. (http://bp2.blogger.com/_U3H2_6PxxNg/RhYzQuTYkYI/AAAAAAAAAIk/lgn4a9Y1_C8/s1600-h/lost_island_map_31.png) You can easily calculate distances.

Please tell us how the map is wrong.

Please tell us how the Black Rock isn't located 10 miles from the statue and sitting up the second mountain range.

Please tell us how the Black Rock is actually 2 miles away and part way up the first range.

Please explain how the Artz quote is correct but apparently everything else they used to support their map is wrong.

How can they be wrong about where the Black Rock is sitting? How can it actually be 8 miles closer to the statue and on the first range?

Hey there fellas.

First, Colin....

The ship looks to be in a copse of trees. the land is flat, and the ground looks moist. Why is it at the top of mountain range, in your eyes? It has always had the same level ground around it, though the trees have changed. An onscreen character stated where the vessel must be. No one said "actually, you buffoonish day player, it's ten miles in"

You have a halfcrazed French chick's map to go on. Easily fallible. I'm surprised the thing didn't have Heare Theare Be Dragones written on it.

AWTY.....

I would say the statue has a dozen weak spots, maybe more. I do not believe the statue is one giant piece of carved stone. It would be well nigh impossible to move, erect and carve a stone that big. I believe the statue is in pieces. It's Jenga, my chum, Jenga.

And, I have the ship on my screen right now...There is no rigging intact on this ship. The mainmast is broken and lying over it's port side. There are sails collapsed over it's starboard. The ship is messed up. The tree thing. Well, they tried to show tree debris.

I know this from the many shows I have worked on. In an area like this, a governmental body will send a representative to the set to make sure that you don't mess with the flora. They will be adamant...and have the power to shut a production down if they think that the production is messing with the forest. So they scatter some debris around, but leave the big tree standing.

On this point, The point of the ship in the forest, I mean, you are going to have to give them some dramatic license. The ship got carried inland two miles...Funny how you are upset with two miles and the guy I answered above is adamant it's ten.

It's not a stretch to believe that a typhoon carried anything that far inland. Over a mountain range, you need Deep Impact and Elijah Wood.

I know Colin and I don't see eye to eye in many things, but I have to agree that the BR can't be two miles away from the statue. If only because it took the Losties an entire day to get there, get the dynamite and get back. At a walking pace with Hurley in tow (no offense meant to Jorge or the character, but the show has made a point in the past of saying he's slow, if nimble).

And they didn't have that many distractions. They left in the morning, walked through the dark territory, got to the BR, Arzt gave his little speech and blew up, Locke and Jack packed the dynamite, they headed back, had a brief encounter with Smokey, and by the time they reached the hatch, it was night.

Now, I don't know what the average walking speed of a person is, but, I'm guessing that walking for practically an entire day, you'd cover more than 4 miles (2x2). I personally used to walk 8 miles before noon hit (at a quick pace and on asphalt, which are better conditions than the Losties had, but still).

We also have to consider that the Losties never saw the statue from the beach, until Sayid sailed around in the Elizabeth with Sun & Jin, not even when Sayid found the cable did he see the statue; so, the statue is away from the beach camp. Maybe the BR rests at the vertex of an isosceles triangle, where the two points in the base are the beach camp and the statue, in which case it would take about the same amount of time to walk from the beach camp to the BR, than from the statue to the BR (assuming similar terrain). Which would be longer than two miles for sure.

I have noticed this season that distances seem to be compressed, or the Losties are traveling faster, because it takes them practically no time to get from one point to the other, when, in Season 1 (particularly), distances seemed a lot larger: getting from the beach camp to Tom's pretend line in the jungle that the Losties weren't supposed to cross, took an entire day.

This is probably done because they need the characters in those places sooner than they did in S1, and I'm okay with that if it means the story is going to move somewhere, but it is noticeable.

I think they purposely have never released a map because they probably knew that sometimes they'd have to move people faster than the distances on a map would account for.

Hey there fellas.

First, Colin....

The ship looks to be in a copse of trees. the land is flat, and the ground looks moist. Why is it at the top of mountain range, in your eyes? It has always had the same level ground around it, though the trees have changed. An onscreen character stated where the vessel must be. No one said "actually, you buffoonish day player, it's ten miles in"


I said the ship somehow made it over the first mountain range and rested 10 miles inland up on the second mountain range. I came to that conclusion by looking at maps like the one I linked to above.




You have a halfcrazed French chick's map to go on. Easily fallible. I'm surprised the thing didn't have Heare Theare Be Dragones written on it.

The fans who came up with maps did not only rely on Danielle's map.





And, I have the ship on my screen right now...There is no rigging intact on this ship. The mainmast is broken and lying over it's port side. There are sails collapsed over it's starboard. The ship is messed up. The tree thing. Well, they tried to show tree debris.



In looking at this picture (http://photogallery.longlostlist.net/albums/userpics/10001/exoduspart2-0032.jpg), I see the ropes still attached to the masts. That is what I referred to as rigging. Maybe I used the wrong terminolgy. However, you're right. There looks like there is one broken mast tilted against the side.



The ship got carried inland two miles...Funny how you are upset with two miles and the guy I answered above is adamant it's ten.

It's not a stretch to believe that a typhoon carried anything that far inland. Over a mountain range, you need Deep Impact and Elijah Wood.

Yeah, until someone proves otherwise I'm going with the maps that indicate 10. And until someone proves otherwise, I'm going with the ship is located on the second mountain range. People can keep claiming it's not 10 miles until they're blue in the face. It's meaningless unless they show how the maps are wrong.

.

Let's make this easy. Here is a map showing the statue and Black Rock. (http://bp2.blogger.com/_U3H2_6PxxNg/RhYzQuTYkYI/AAAAAAAAAIk/lgn4a9Y1_C8/s1600-h/lost_island_map_31.png) You can easily calculate distances.

Please tell us how the map is wrong.

Please tell us how the Black Rock isn't located 10 miles from the statue and sitting up the second mountain range.

Please tell us how the Black Rock is actually 2 miles away and part way up the first range.

Please explain how the Artz quote is correct but apparently everything else they used to support their map is wrong.

How can they be wrong about where the Black Rock is sitting? How can it actually be 8 miles closer to the statue and on the first range?

The location of the tail makes no sense to me in this map. Didn't Ana Lucia and crew walk the beach line almost all the way (they went into the forest towards the end of their journey) to our Losties camp? Considering they didn't see the fake dharma camp or the Tawaret foot questions the accuracy of the map.

I know Colin and I don't see eye to eye in many things, but I have to agree that the BR can't be two miles away from the statue.

Thanks.

Hey there fellas.

And, I have the ship on my screen right now...There is no rigging intact on this ship. The mainmast is broken and lying over it's port side. There are sails collapsed over it's starboard. The ship is messed up. The tree thing. Well, they tried to show tree debris.

...

On this point, The point of the ship in the forest, I mean, you are going to have to give them some dramatic license. The ship got carried inland two miles...Funny how you are upset with two miles and the guy I answered above is adamant it's ten.


I'm not sure what picture you are looking at or maybe what we are calling "rigging" is different. But

http://photogallery.longlostlist.net/albums/userpics/10001/exoduspart2-0032.jpg

Clearly shows a couple masts with the ropes still attached.

I'm not sure why you think I'm upset with two miles. I'm not upset with 10 miles or 50 miles either. I'm not upset with the ship being intact. I think the scene defies the laws of physics but as I said before the island/Jacob/MIB clearly don't follow the normal laws of physics. Jacob brought the ship to the island via his "magic". Just like the losties survived the plane wreck. I guess what I don't get is why people are so insistent on trying to make it fit our laws of physics.

Thanks.

Well, the one big thing we fundamentally disagree on is the relevance of the mythology, because I do agree with you that some of it, if not most of it, is outlandish, and sometimes down right silly. But because we disagree in how relevant it is to the main story, we react differently to the execution of the mythology aspects.

I don't care as much as you do, because I have thought, from the very beginning, that the mythology was second to the overarching story and to the characters. I would even go as far as to say that perhaps time traveling wasn't in the original equation, but, by the end of season 3 Heroes was a hot show that made time traveling cool and the internet fans were practically begging for it, so, it became part of the story. But that's just conjecture on my part.

Here is a map showing the statue and Black Rock. (http://bp2.blogger.com/_U3H2_6PxxNg/RhYzQuTYkYI/AAAAAAAAAIk/lgn4a9Y1_C8/s1600-h/lost_island_map_31.png)
Please tell us how the map is wrong.

Here's two for starters.

Rousseau's Map Translated (http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090731033135/lostpedia/images/1/17/RousseauMapFullTranslated.jpg) Rousseau's Map untranslated (http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090728200134/lostpedia/images/d/df/Rousseau_map2.jpg)

Lostpedia
Smaller islands can be seen apart from the main island. It was confirmed that one of these islands is Hydra Island. (Official Lost Podcast/March 26, 2007)
Hydra is not where the Fan made map shows it.

Ben's Map (http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090412014814/lostpedia/images/a/a5/Bens_Temple_Map.jpg)

Lostpedia
Ben gave Alex a map to the Temple. ("Meet Kevin Johnson") According to the map, the Temple appears to be northwest of the Barracks, not far from the coast. "Meet Kevin Johnson"
BEN: Well, it wouldn't be a sanctuary if I told everyone, would it? The rest of our people are already there. If you leave now, you can get there in a day and a half. Where the Fan made map locates the Barracks walking a day and a half Northwest would put Karl, Alex and Rousseau in the ocean..

ETA
-----------------

The fans who came up with maps did not only rely on Danielle's map.

The fan certainly did use Rousseau's map the X's that were on Rousseau's Map were also on the Fan's map.

That would be dumb science, DP2. And the PTBs have oft related the search for answers that fans have done as the search for midichlorians.
Yes, I know they have. I'm not saying it would be satisfying in any way, I'm just looking for a definition of "pseudo-science", and that was an example I think we're mostly familiar with. So forget midichlorians, what if it's all attributed to the anomalous magnetism on the island? Magneto/Jacob manipulates the iron in your blood to keep you eternally young or heal you quicker than normal. MIB does the same to destroy pregnant mothers. Is that close enough to the science end of the magic/science spectrum?

Back to the ship, Fishbiscuit (http://www.docarzt.com/lost/lost-recaps/i-alone-am-escaped-to-tell-thee-6-09-ab-aeterno/) at DocArzt put forth an interesting theory on the storm: it could be something similar to the storm Frank had to fly through multiple times.

The map is wrong....because it's a fan map.

The tail that Mesa mentions is a prime example of this. I have seen that tail all over the place on maps. I saw one where the tail was ahead of the Fuselage. The explanation for that was darned confusing but came out to be we didn't see what we saw from New Otherton.

Rousseau's map is untrustworthy.

Distances walked in episodes are gauged by how much drama or talking they have to wring out of the scene. Just recently people are walking to the Temple from New Otherton, making it seem like a nice jaunt, other times, it's a real journey.

I will go with stated facts from the show every time over a fan map. And I will be willing to change my mind again, if they change something. This is not new to TV. Starsky and Hutch were stem to stern in Bay City. Huggy's was next door to the police station one ep, and far away the next. Again,, I don't wish to malign the maps, I just say that they are meaningless within the context of the show. I can tell you are very proud of your map, and, I am sure, rightly so. But the showrunners can trump your map any time they see fit. They can add stuff that seems impossible....a recent addition: A giant crocodile head just off the coast of the island that somehow erodes and disappears in less than 150 years.

As to the rigging...Wow, I did not remember that shot. That must be from an early version of the Black Rock. The shot I was looking at was from this episode. Both times we see slumped over sails and the broken mainmast...Never the extensive rigging that you showed in that pic. I stand corrected there. I guess I can attribute that to the unpredictable nature of violent tempests. It's not unheard of for a yacht in a monsoon to somehow be put down gently in the middle of a farmer's field or something. And if the wave was that high, and the Rock is seemingly riding the quest of that wave, it's possible that it just got dumped there, very gently .....lot of ifs, I agree. But we're dealing with a world of guys who turn to smoke and time travelling bunnies.

And DP2. I was just funning about the dumb science thing. Because I had heard the showrunners invoke midichlorians before...AND...because it threatened to ruin the Star Wars mythology. It didn't. other stupid stuff took care of that.

Here's two for starters.




I started to reply to this post point by point but realized that I was wasting a lot of time. I said the Black Rock is located on the second mountain range and is 10 miles away from the statue. I said tell us how that is wrong. I don't know how anything you said attempted to disprove either of those two points.

I honestly can't believe this is even being debated. As I said previously, even if the 10 mile estimate is off by a mile or 2 it doesn't really matter.

What you seem to also be forgetting is that the Black Rock is located in the Dark Territory. The Dark Territory is located between the two mountain ranges. So after this episode and the "answers" they gave, some people are desperately trying to rewrite history and change things.

I will go with stated facts from the show every time over a fan map.

How do you think the map was figured out? Fans used facts from the show. Besides, you're conveniently ignoring many facts as I'll point out.



Again, I don't wish to malign the maps, I just say that they are meaningless within the context of the show. I can tell you are very proud of your map, and, I am sure, rightly so. But the showrunners can trump your map any time they see fit.


You don't want to malign the maps? I would have never guessed that. The problem is that you're maligning them seemingly out of ignorance for how they were created.

Sure, Lindelof and Cuse can do anything they want. They can move Hydra island to the North of the main island if they want. Just because they do something, doesn't mean it makes sense.


Okay, brother. Nice map. I suppose that magic put the ship, in your map, over one mountain range and most of the way up another. Ground looked pretty flat though.



If you're under the impression that that was my map, that's something else you're wrong about. I didn't make the map.

Also, Lindelof and Cuse put the Black Rock over one mountain range and most of the way up the other because they put the Black Rock in the Dark Territory. The Dark Territory is between the two mountain ranges. Those are facts; and those two facts mean the ship can not be 2 miles from the shore.

Moving the Black Rock 2 miles off shore puts it out of in the Dark Territory.

Moving the Black Rock 2 miles off shore puts it on the left side of the first mountain range.

Moving the Black Rock 2 miles off shore puts it only 3 miles from the fake camp.

And pay attention to this one because it's important....

Moving the Black Rock 2 miles off shore completely changes it's position relative to all other landmarks... the Pearl, the second beach camp, the fuselage, the caves and the swan. Moving the Black Rock 2 miles off shore would put it to their left instead of their right where it should be. In fact, the Black Rock would then be on the left side of the island instead of on the right.

Sorry, but moving the Black Rock 2 miles off shore is simply ridiculous.

The map is right in respect to the location of the Black Rock and it's distance from the statue.

Yes, I know they have. I'm not saying it would be satisfying in any way, I'm just looking for a definition of "pseudo-science", and that was an example I think we're mostly familiar with. So forget midichlorians, what if it's all attributed to the anomalous magnetism on the island? Magneto/Jacob manipulates the iron in your blood to keep you eternally young or heal you quicker than normal. MIB does the same to destroy pregnant mothers. Is that close enough to the science end of the magic/science spectrum?


Obviously there is some grey area but generally speaking if they try to give a scientific reason to explain something then it's pseudo-science. If they don't try to explain it scientifically it's not.

So yes, your example would qualify as pseudo-science.

As much as that would explain the continuity errors you are wrong about that. When they have the conversation at the end of season 5 the statue is completely intact. So the conversation between MIB and Jacob takes place before MIB tries to send Richard to kill Jacob.

The only thing I can assume logically is that the end of Season 5 pre-dates the Black Rock and they wanted us to think that it was in fact the Black Rock. Maybe those were people of the past that Jacob alluded too tonight. I really can't possibly think in a show this intricate that the Writers would make that huge of a blunder.
I may have missed it's mention here but the thing that bugs me is the last epi of S5 (Jacob and MiB on beach) the ship is sailing in on a perfectly calm sea. Of course what we saw last night was anything but a calm sea which leads me to believe the MiB became smoky and whipped up a sudden tsunami / hurricane. Since he didn't care for the humans coming to the island I assume his intent was to destroy the entire ship and all aboard. Makes sense (maybe).
I think that the Black Rock came to the island at least twice. There is a note somewhere about Magnus Hanso sailing the ship himself while most business owners would be directing operations from home. He wanted to get back to the island.

I think that is also why Jacob didn't protect the crew and slaves from Smokey. He didn't realize it had come back.

[QUOTE=colin72;2312719]You don't understand. The Black Rock can't be located on the ocean side of the first mountain range

The peak of the first mountain range is 3 1/2 miles from the statue. The Black rock is resting up on the second mountain range almost at the top so it can't be only 2 miles away from the statue which is not even over the first range.
//end quote

Since TPTB have paid homage to all sorts of Bible stories, perhaps this was just their homage to Noah's Ark which is supposed to be stuck in the middle of some mountain range in Turkey?? Just as Locke leading his group might be construed as a salute to Moses and letting his people go..... go off the darn island.

Arzt tought it was a tsunami. Plus it was only a couple of miles inland.

"Exodus"
ARZT: Hold on, wait, hold on. Hold, wait. What are we a couple miles inland? [to Danielle] A tsunami probably swept it here, huh, right?



Arzt would seem to have more knowledge of how far inland they were than some fan making a map..A few miles is better than ten.



Second of all I do think Artz, who was on the Island, would know better than a viewer that it was a few miles inland over it being 10 miles inland as someone else as stated.




Well, I have to apologize. While debating the distance the ship is from the statue, I completely missed the fact that Artz was actaully correct. The ship is 2 miles inland.

However, unfortunately this little tidbit doesn't help your argument and actually fits in perfectly with mine. Artz said the ship was 2 miles inland. He's correct. It is 2 miles inland FROM THE EAST COAST of the island. That is exactly where it is on the map I linked to.

Furthermore, Lostpedia describes the Black Rock as being in the Dark Territory, several hours northEAST of the survivor's camp. That would put in right where I stated, right where Artz estimated.

This thread offically became ridiculous eight pages ago. Like Christian told Jack, "You have trouble letting go."

It does not matter..the ship didnt destroy the statue. The force of the water did! Whoever is controlling the water on the show took the statue out, I am guessing for humor and spite...