I believe that the reason he asked to never die is because he could not receive absolution for his sins, and he believed the priest that he would die and go to hell because of the murder of the doctor.

But it was so hard for me to understand how he could ask for eternal life, when his life (other than with his wife) was absolutely horrible!

Isn't either way hell?

Yeah, this was hard for me to understand as well.

After just losing the love of his life, why would he want to live forever, in servitude to a mysterious man?

All I can think of is that perhaps he thought with enough time, he would be able to earn penance for his sin. After all, the priest told him this was the path to forgiveness, but he just didn't have enough time (when he was still supposed to be executed) to pursue it.

I think I would of preferred Jacob bestowing it on him so that he could be his eternal go-between, but I guess that would harbor more resentment.

I think he said it "in the moment". If he was going to hell when he dies, well maybe he would rather NOT die. I think either way he believes he WONT see his wife, hes the one "going to hell" and not her.

He didn't want to go to Hell. That's why he asked to not die.

Yeah, this was hard for me to understand as well.

After just losing the love of his life, why would he want to live forever, in servitude to a mysterious man?

All I can think of is that perhaps he thought with enough time, he would be able to earn penance for his sin. After all, the priest told him this was the path to forgiveness, but he just didn't have enough time (when he was still supposed to be executed) to pursue it.

I think I would of preferred Jacob bestowing it on him so that he could be his eternal go-between, but I guess that would harbor more resentment.

That was my initial thought too beema. He wanted enough time to repent for his sins and prove that he was worthy for heaven. It could be that when he heard that he wasn't going to be able to see Isabella again, he didn't care and may have wanted to punish himself if he blamed himself for her death. Afterall, at the end of the episode with Hurley, she did say it wasn't Richard's fault.

I agree Laura, I think that his choice was because he couldn't find absolution, and his fear of hell, at least at the time, was greater than his sadness at being without his wife. But Mirelly Taylor...come on Richard. take the chance broseph.

I think he said it "in the moment". If he was going to hell when he dies, well maybe he would rather NOT die. I think either way he believes he WONT see his wife, hes the one "going to hell" and not her.

This was what I was thinking. It's human nature to be afraid of death and that was probably the first thing that popped into his mind after being told he coudn't be with Isabella again or gain absolution. It seems a very classic case of needing to beware of getting what you ask for.

That priest was definitely crooked, though, taking the slave ship officer's money. As I understand it, it's never too late truly to repent. You just have to work off some years in purgatory, which is what the island really is, imo, not hell.

Cardie

Yeah, this was hard for me to understand as well.

After just losing the love of his life, why would he want to live forever, in servitude to a mysterious man?

All I can think of is that perhaps he thought with enough time, he would be able to earn penance for his sin. After all, the priest told him this was the path to forgiveness, but he just didn't have enough time (when he was still supposed to be executed) to pursue it.

I think I would of preferred Jacob bestowing it on him so that he could be his eternal go-between, but I guess that would harbor more resentment.

I agree completely, Beema, and I was startled at first by by his request. Then I remembered the priest's words and understood. At least he asked for Isabella first! With no hesitation.

He didn't want to go to Hell. That's why he asked to not die.That's what I was thinking, too. He had been told that he couldn't be forgiven for his sin, but by penance. And there was some trouble with his doing penance, too. The Catholic doctrine of good works would mean it would be difficult for him to do penance on the island. Eko was building a church, but what could Richard have done? Also, he didn't seem to know, when he was talking to the priest, what he could do, so without the guidance of the clergy, he would have had a hard time figuring out how to avoid damnation. It was another Catholic doctrinal thing that it's important to have the clergy interpret scripture and grant absolution. So Richard, being a good Spanish Catholic, would have figured that, without a priest, without the opportunity to do good works, he wouldn't have been able to avoid hell, so it would be better for him to live forever than to go to hell.

That priest was definitely crooked, though, taking the slave ship officer's money. As I understand it, it's never too late truly to repent. You just have to work off some years in purgatory, which is what the island really is, imo, not hell.Yeah, I mentioned that on Watching Live. Catholic doctrine also allows for a person to be one of the "late repentant," to repent just before death, and yet still be saved. It just requires a LONG time in purgatory. It would be interesting to rewatch -- the priest didn't refuse him absolution until after he found out that Richard spoke English, right? He knew he could sell him into servitude if his only other choice was eternal damnation. That's a very Smokey-like false choice. :eek2:

At least he asked for Isabella first! With no hesitation.Yeah, and I loved that Jacob said he couldn't deliver on that. Another difference between Jacob and MiB -- MiB will offer each recruit anything he or she wants -- anything! -- but Jacob has rules.

Also, I loved that Jacob's reaction to Richard's request for immortality had a little bit of a shrug to it -- sort of a "Really? Well, if that's what you really want..." kind of thing. :71:

He didn't want to go to Hell. That's why he asked to not die.

That's what I thought. And the priest had told him he didn't have enough time for penance. Now he's got eternity to pay penance for a salvation he'll never see.

It is kind of funny how arbitrarily they have circumscribed Jacob's powers. Bring your wife back?--no can do (although this casts confusion on the supposed resurrection of Dogen's son). Save you from hell?--no can do. Make you live forever?--piece of cake.

Cardie

That priest was definitely crooked, though, taking the slave ship officer's money. As I understand it, it's never too late truly to repent. You just have to work off some years in purgatory, which is what the island really is, imo, not hell.

Cardie

Agreed. No matter what they label the Island, it does serve as a "purgatory" for many of our characters. This episode cemented that idea for me.

although this casts confusion on the supposed resurrection of Dogen's son

Dogen's son was never dead.

Dogen said his son was killed in the car wreck he caused by driving drunk.

Cardie

Yes, Ricardo clearly wanted to live forever because, as his sins could not be expunged, he was afraid to go to hell.
But Jacob's power limitations is intriguing. He did bring Locke back from death by touching him. Maybe he needs to actually touch a body, which is impossible in Isabella's case. To pardon sins, of course is not in his power.
What is also intriguing is Jacob's morality. To allow hundreds to be killed to prove one is good.? talk about free will after highjacking ships and planes for who knows how long? How many people died in the plane crash?

Liberate Tutemae Ex Inferis

It is kind of funny how arbitrarily they have circumscribed Jacob's powers. Bring your wife back?--no can do (although this casts confusion on the supposed resurrection of Dogen's son). Save you from hell?--no can do. Make you live forever?--piece of cake.

Cardie

I read a thought from another poster that perhaps the MIB was impersonating Jacob and told Dogen that. We don't know if Dogen ever actually met Jacob in person, do we? therefore MIB could have shown up and pretended he was Jacob, without even looking like the real Jacob. That's just a thought.

Also, there is the theory that Jacob was fibbing because he knew that Dogen's son was alive in the ALT but not the Main. Maybe Isabella dies in the ALT too...

:confused:

I think he was spitballing. That third request was him being whimsical, I thought. He never thought that was the one he would get.

Why Jacob just didn't absolve him of his sin, I don't know.

Jacob's no one. He works for the big guy. If anything, he's merely the MiB's jail keeper.

What do you got for that supposition WingedOne?

I read a thought from another poster that perhaps the MIB was impersonating Jacob and told Dogen that. We don't know if Dogen ever actually met Jacob in person, do we? therefore MIB could have shown up and pretended he was Jacob, without even looking like the real Jacob. That's just a thought.



Although there is some uncertainty about whether the Christian Shephard who showed up at Jack's hosptial was Smokey--the smoke alarm goes off--that's the only instance in which we've seen MiB able to impersonate anyone else far from the island or its adjoining waters. I tend to think he couldn't be having conversations with Dogen like Jacob has with people.

The key was probably that Dogen's son had just died and Jacob could restore him as he seemed to restore Locke. By the time Ricardo got to the island, Isabella was probably buried and beyond resurrection.

Cardie

Dogen said his son was killed in the car wreck he caused by driving drunk.

Cardie
He didn't quite say he died.
"Sundown"
DOGEN: I was a business man once. In Osaka. I worked at a bank. I was good at my job. Very successful. And one Friday, I was promoted. My associates took me out to celebrate. I had too much to drink. Every Friday I picked my son up from baseball. He was twelve. The accident was very bad. I survived. But my son...
[Dogen pauses]
DOGEN: And then, in the hospital, a man came to me. A man I had never met. And he told me that he could save my son's life, but I would have to come here... to this island... where I would have a new job. And I could never see my boy again.

I definitely think that Richard just spat out the "never wanting to die" thing. I don't really blame him. He'd just been chained to a boat in a horrible storm, watched his fellow prisoners get stuck through the stomach with a sword, watched the rest of the survivors get killed by the smoke monster, and then had the crap beat out of him by Jacob. What do you think is on his mind? He's been living in terror of death and when asked what he wanted he was basically saying, "I just want to be left in peace!"

As for the Dogen thing...I don't think his son died. He said that Jacob told him he "could save" his son. Not bring him back. He can't be saved if he's dead.

I wonder if Jack seeing Christian in the lobby wasn't just Jack being an unstable drug-addict. Maybe it wasn't supposed to be more than that.

Okay so Jacob can't absolve him of his sins with a click of his fingers. However, the priest already told Richard that he could be forgiven in time if he repents, the only reason that he couldn't do that before is the impending execution. Living on the island for his normal life span, he could have repented and then died and gone to Heaven. Just because Jacob couldn't do it instantly for him, I don't understand why he would give up on it entirely, as there was the alternative, which the priest already mentioned. Doesn't make sense to me. Once again, don't think the writers really knew why Richard was immortal when they made him that way a few seasons ago.

I think he was spitballing. That third request was him being whimsical, I thought. He never thought that was the one he would get.

Why Jacob just didn't absolve him of his sin, I don't know.

The priest told Richard that he couldn't absolve him on his sins because there wasn't enough time for penance. This is his God's rule. The priest didn't just make it up. So it would have to be consistent with what Jacob tells Richard. Why would he be able to absolve him of his sins just with a touch of the hand? Even if he was God.

Jacob told Richard that the people who come to the island have sinned and that they have to find their way, redeem themselves. Richard asks him why he doesn't intervene when they need help and he says that they have to find their way on their own. Penance. It's all meaningless if I have to force them to do anything. So, I would think Jacob asking Richard to be his "advisor" the go-between his a way of penance.

Im pretty sure the question of why Richard...after all the recent events leading up to that point in his life, in a nowhere else to go, this is all I would have left apart from actual Hell statement about rather living forever, is really not needed. Surely it wasnt that hard to get.

I agreee with those who believe Richard didn't so much choose to ask for immortality as much as he chose against what he believed were the alternatives. Hearing Jacob say he could neither resurrect Isabella (which would've given him a happy life before death and hell), nor give him absolution for his sins (which would have insured he'd join his wife in heaven). what was left for him? He would rather never die when he believes he will go to eternal hell while his wife will be in heaven. Even a normal lifetime will not save him from that fate, because his catholic belief for that time depends upon a priest's intercession to grant absolution for his sins. Also, he was in deep despair, feeling deep guilt over his inability to protect his wife from death. He bacame 'lost' to himself, so he served Jacob instead of his own life. When he goes into crisis he left the beach campfire, once again 'lost' and in despair, to make a deal with MIB. He retrieved his wife's cross from where he'd buried it when we saw him looooooong ago with MIB, and THAT is when her spirit returned to him, and he tells her "I would do anything for us to be together again", and she responds, "My love, we are already together." Richard is healed, and the trust Jacob placed in him, the knowledge Ilana was told Richard would have to guide them in their next step....I think will now be fulfilled.

Dogen's son was never dead.

What about real Locke when he was thrown out of the window?