Ok so others follow Jacob and he is all about letting people come to the island and so why arent they okay with it? They killed the American soldiers in the 50s and shot flaming arrows at the time traveling losties. They have issues with the Dharma, they wanted Danielle dead, and they also obviously had many conflicts with the losties in 2004. So why the hostility? Jacob obviously brought them all to the island. And what was up with the other's list? was that really given to them by Jacob? because cindy was on that list and she is with smokey now.

This is a big mystery for me. I've also been trying to reconcile it.

It seems at some point either Jacob decided to abandon his hands-off approach (although I don't know why he would condone harming random people)...

or

the Others eventually formed their own society, with no governance from Jacob, and since Jacob was hands-off, they were allowed to do whatever they wanted, which included being hostile to outsiders.

I don't understand how Richard factored into it, since at least in the 1950's he seemed to be leading the Others, and even though he knew the whole score with Jacob, he was hostile to outsiders as well.

as shown by ben, ellie and widmore, the other's leaders don't completly follow jacob's path. they start to do what they want. that's where the issues come into play. when the other's leaders start thinking about what they want and not what jacob wants.

also i don't think jacob brought the dharma people to the island.
100%
This is a big mystery for me. I've also been trying to reconcile it.

It seems at some point either Jacob decided to abandon his hands-off approach (although I don't know why he would condone harming random people)...

or

the Others eventually formed their own society, with no governance from Jacob, and since Jacob was hands-off, they were allowed to do whatever they wanted, which included being hostile to outsiders.

I don't understand how Richard factored into it, since at least in the 1950's he seemed to be leading the Others, and even though he knew the whole score with Jacob, he was hostile to outsiders as well.


richard was hostile to the dharma people which we have seen do not have good intentions for the island or the hostiles. i question if jacob brought these people to the island. you have to remember that until the truce was signed, the dharma people were at war with the hostiles. what should the other's have done, let themselfs be killed.

This is a big mystery for me. I've also been trying to reconcile it.

It seems at some point either Jacob decided to abandon his hands-off approach (although I don't know why he would condone harming random people)...

or

the Others eventually formed their own society, with no governance from Jacob, and since Jacob was hands-off, they were allowed to do whatever they wanted, which included being hostile to outsiders.

I don't understand how Richard factored into it, since at least in the 1950's he seemed to be leading the Others, and even though he knew the whole score with Jacob, he was hostile to outsiders as well.

Maybe the others leaders just didnt know what Jacob wanted, just like Ben. Its kind of hard to fight for something when you dont know what you are fighting for and then slowly your own desires will seem more important. Like bringing people to the island (Juliet) or going off the island to meet with a lover (widmore)

as shown by ben, ellie and widmore, the other's leaders don't completly follow jacob's path. they start to do what they want. that's where the issues come into play. when the other's leaders start thinking about what they want and not what jacob wants.


Maybe the others leaders just didnt know what Jacob wanted, just like Ben. Its kind of hard to fight for something when you dont know what you are fighting for and then slowly your own desires will seem more important. Like bringing people to the island (Juliet) or going off the island to meet with a lover (widmore)

Would seem to be proving the MiB's views on humanity right...
Jacob has a bad track record so far.

I'm certain that Jacob was responsible for Dharma coming to the Island. The evidence we have been presented with thus far is that every other group of people came to the Island as a result of Jacob. Why would Dharma be the exception to this?

MAN IN BLACK: They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

Like always, Ben and the Others became corrupt and aggressive. Ben was power hungry and was driven by his need to be the Islands leader. He lied about talking to and hearing Jacob. But the Others believed he was getting his orders from Jacob. Ben didn't want newcomers because he had the Others under his thumb.

because cindy was on that list and she is with smokey now.
Cindy's name was not on the list. There were nine on the list from the Tailies and they already had the nine before Cindy was taken.


also i don't think jacob brought the dharma people to the island.

Some of the DI were listed as Candidates
Chang, Lewis, Inman

There were three U S army men that brought Jughead in 1954.
Mattingly, Cunningham and Jones.

Some of the Others were also candidates.
Pickett, Friendly, Pryce, Burke, Linus (could be either DI or Other), Stanhope, Goodspeed, Martin.

The French Science team were also candidates.
Rousseau, Montand, Lancombe, and Brennan.

MAN IN BLACK: They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

Like always, Ben and the Others became corrupt and aggressive. Ben was power hungry and was driven by his need to be the Islands leader. He lied about talking to and hearing Jacob. But the Others believed he was getting his orders from Jacob. Ben didn't want newcomers because he had the Others under his thumb.

This is true, but how do you explain the Others' malevolence towards outsiders back when Richard was apparently in charge?


Some of the DI were listed as Candidates
Chang, Lewis, Inman

There were three U S army men that brought Jughead in 1954.
Mattingly, Cunningham and Jones.

Some of the Others were also candidates.
Pickett, Friendly, Pryce, Burke, Linus (could be either DI or Other), Stanhope, Goodspeed, Martin.

The French Science team were also candidates.
Rousseau, Montand, Lancombe, and Brennan.

Thanks for this. More evidence to support the idea that everyone (Dharma, Army, EVERYONE) who has come to the Island was Jacob's doing.

Not to mention Alvar Hanso more or less founded the Dharma Initiative, and he is a direct descendant of Magnus Hanso, captain of the Black Rock, which Jacob brought to the Island. So Dharma has connections to the Island through Jacob from its inception.

Yet these groups were in conflict with each other once they arrived. Seems fairly naive that Jacob wouldn't foresee that happening.

Would seem to be proving the MiB's views on humanity right...
Jacob has a bad track record so far.

I'm certain that Jacob was responsible for Dharma coming to the Island. The evidence we have been presented with thus far is that every other group of people came to the Island as a result of Jacob. Why would Dharma be the exception to this?

dharma is the exception because at that time richard is leading the others and he speaks directly to jacob and knows exactly what jacob wants. if jacob wanted the others to join with the dharma people that would have happened. instead they were at war with the dharma people. not to mention the truce that richard fills out with horace.

this is not like when ben was leading the others because ben didn't speak directly to jacob, but richard did.

This is true, but how do you explain the Others' malevolence towards outsiders back when Richard was apparently in charge?
Same answer:
MAN IN BLACK: They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.
Always the same. Whether its the hostiles, the DI, or whoever.... they come, they fight, they destroy.

This is true, but how do you explain the Others' malevolence towards outsiders back when Richard was apparently in charge?



Thanks for this. More evidence to support the idea that everyone (Dharma, Army, EVERYONE) who has come to the Island was Jacob's doing.

Not to mention Alvar Hanso more or less founded the Dharma Initiative, and he is a direct descendant of Magnus Hanso, captain of the Black Rock, which Jacob brought to the Island. So Dharma has connections to the Island through Jacob from its inception.

Yet these groups were in conflict with each other once they arrived. Seems fairly naive that Jacob wouldn't foresee that happening.


well it makes sense that richard would be in conflict with with the army since they did bring a h-bomb to the island. an h-bomb that could sink the island.

dharma is the exception because at that time richard is leading the others and he speaks directly to jacob and knows exactly what jacob wants. if jacob wanted the others to join with the dharma people that would have happened. instead they were at war with the dharma people. not to mention the truce that richard fills out with horace.

this is not like when ben was leading the others because ben didn't speak directly to jacob, but richard did.
Why do you say Richard was leading the Others when the DI was there?
Eloise was the leader when the DI was first on the Island and then Widmore was the leader after Eloise left

"The Incident"
ELOISE: Once we give you the all clear, then you bring the bomb.
[Sayid nods in affirmation, then Eloise turns to go through the hole.]
ELOISE: We don't want any accidents.
[Richard suddenly pistol whips Eloise in the back of the head. As she falls unconscious, Richard catches her in his arms.]
JACK: What the hell are you doing?
[Richard holds Eloise with one hand and aims his pistol at Jack with the other.]
RICHARD: I'm protecting our leader. Get back.

.Richard was the advisor to both of them. Jacob may have also have spoken to Richard as well as the leader of the Others.

Why do you say Richard was leading the Others when the DI was there?
Eloise was the leader when the DI was first on the Island and then Widmore was the leader after Eloise left

"The Incident"

.Richard was the advisor to both of them. Jacob may have also have spoken to Richard as well as the leader of the Others.


your right, i was just thinking about the truce and how richard signed it. but your right, richard was not in charge then, only the advisor.

if jacob wanted the others to join with the dharma people that would have happened.

I dont think Jacob would give such a direct order, he wanted people to solve their own problems

I dont think Jacob would give such a direct order, he wanted people to solve their own problems


i agree. i was thinking wrong because i was thinking richard was leading the others during the di but i remembered it wrong. so your right. since ellie and widmore were leading the others at the time.

well it makes sense that richard would be in conflict with with the army since they did bring a h-bomb to the island. an h-bomb that could sink the island.

I doubt he knew exactly how powerful the bomb was, this reminds me Richard told Daniel that he had asked the soldiers to leave peacefully. Why would he? he knows that Jacob brought them.

I doubt he knew exactly how powerful the bomb was, this reminds me Richard told Daniel that he had asked the soldiers to leave peacefully. Why would he? he knows that Jacob brought them.


richard seemed to know how powerful the bomb was.

unless jacob did not bring everyone to the island. or because richard knew what they were planning and it involved possibly destroying the island which would free mib.

richard seemed to know how powerful the bomb was.

unless jacob did not bring everyone to the island. or because richard knew what they were planning and it involved possibly destroying the island which would free mib.

i dont think that smokey could bring people the island though,
maybe jacob did bring them and smokey egged the americans to blow up the island and richard, knowing the cork and wine analogy, decided to get rid of them

Ok so others follow Jacob and he is all about letting people come to the island and so why arent they okay with it? .
I dont think Jacob would give such a direct order, he wanted people to solve their own problems
I think you found the perfect answer to your own question.

Jacob couldn't influence people to do "good". That would defeat the whole purpose of proving people are capable of it on their own. Richard pointed out that MiB was influencing people to evil and therefore the scales weren't balanced. That's why Jacob made Richard his second hand...to help counteract MiB's influence. Richard couldn't tell them what to do. We've never seen him do so where good/evil is concerned.

i dont think that smokey could bring people the island though,
maybe jacob did bring them and smokey egged the americans to blow up the island and richard, knowing the cork and wine analogy, decided to get rid of them

could be. maybe once jacob brought them to the island they decided to do what they wanted which was test an h-bomb on it.

i agree about smokey bringing people to the island, its not something he can do.

It seems as though Jacob brings big groups of people to the island but is only really interested in a few individuals, which is why he makes lists. The candidates can join the others, and the non-candidates are just left to survive on the island.

Why do you say Richard was leading the Others when the DI was there?
Eloise was the leader when the DI was first on the Island and then Widmore was the leader after Eloise left

I think Charles & Eloise were in a dual role of leadership (as they were in a relationship) in the 70's. We saw this when Ben was brought to Richard, and when Daniel ran into the Others camp. Eloise might of been the higher authority of the two. At some point, they split up (possibly as a result of Eloise killing Daniel -- their son -- sure to wreak havok on any relationship), and Eloise left the Island. From then on Widmore was the leader through the 80's (seen in Dead is Dead) until he is ousted by Ben.

just wanted to clarify... not get off topic

So, if Richard has mainly acted as advisor to the Hostiles, who came up with deciding if new arrivals to the Island are good or bad?? Richard?? Or, was that started by one of the previous leaders and they never abolished the practice? Richard has seemed to have a better handle throughout the show on bad and good than the average Other/Hostile, imo but it seems that some of the Others don't. Like why Hurley was never targeted for inclusion in the Others or even Claire for that matter.
I don't know...it's like TPTB have thrown the cards up in the air and I'm trying to figure out if both Jacob and MIB are partially telling the truth.

Jacob provided the Others with lists of "good" people. These were the people who he thought were most incorruptable. All of the rest were a threat.

So, if Richard has mainly acted as advisor to the Hostiles, who came up with deciding if new arrivals to the Island are good or bad?? Richard?? Or, was that started by one of the previous leaders and they never abolished the practice? Richard has seemed to have a better handle throughout the show on bad and good than the average Other/Hostile, imo but it seems that some of the Others don't. Like why Hurley was never targeted for inclusion in the Others or even Claire for that matter.
I don't know...it's like TPTB have thrown the cards up in the air and I'm trying to figure out if both Jacob and MIB are partially telling the truth.

ri chard is just the advisor. he advises the others about what to do but at the end of the day, the other's leaders decide what to do. richard just stands in for jacob and tells the others what they should do but its the others choice to do what they should or what they want to do.

I think Charles & Eloise were in a dual role of leadership (as they were in a relationship) in the 70's. We saw this when Ben was brought to Richard, and when Daniel ran into the Others camp. Eloise might of been the higher authority of the two.
"The Incident"
RICHARD: Because, only our leader can request an audience with Jacob. And there can only be one leader on the Island at a time, John.

Eloise may have listened to what Widmore had to say because they were in a relationship but Eloise was the leader.

Ok so others follow Jacob and he is all about letting people come to the island and so why arent they okay with it? They killed the American soldiers in the 50s and shot flaming arrows at the time traveling losties. They have issues with the Dharma, they wanted Danielle dead, and they also obviously had many conflicts with the losties in 2004. So why the hostility? Jacob obviously brought them all to the island. And what was up with the other's list? was that really given to them by Jacob? because cindy was on that list and she is with smokey now.

Richard is an advisor but I wonder when the Others decide to started having an organized system with leaders?

MAN IN BLACK: They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.

Like always, Ben and the Others became corrupt and aggressive. Ben was power hungry and was driven by his need to be the Islands leader. He lied about talking to and hearing Jacob. But the Others believed he was getting his orders from Jacob. Ben didn't want newcomers because he had the Others under his thumb.

Some how these Others became disconnected from Jacob. When that happened, everything started falling apart because Jacob was still doing his thing but the others had no idea what that was. They made up their own decisions as to what Jacob wanted and that happened to coincide with the desires of whatever leader was in charge at the time.

This is true, but how do you explain the Others' malevolence towards outsiders back when Richard was apparently in charge?

Thanks for this. More evidence to support the idea that everyone (Dharma, Army, EVERYONE) who has come to the Island was Jacob's doing.

Not to mention Alvar Hanso more or less founded the Dharma Initiative, and he is a direct descendant of Magnus Hanso, captain of the Black Rock, which Jacob brought to the Island. So Dharma has connections to the Island through Jacob from its inception.

Yet these groups were in conflict with each other once they arrived. Seems fairly naive that Jacob wouldn't foresee that happening.

I don't know that Jacob could foresee the Dharma Initiative gathering scientists to figure out how things work and arriving on the island on their own. Also, I still don't believe that Jacob is God. He is more like an angel or some other less than all knowing, all powerful being, who guards the abyss. Jacob has some power but it is limited.


Perhaps it's like Mikhail (Patchy) was saying some were too angry, or too violent to become part of their society. Because the Others decided to create a society where "they fight, they destroy, they corrupt" would be kept at a minimum. They did background reports on those who came to the island. If they were on Jacob's list, they were allowed to join. If they were innocent children or "good" people they were allowed to join. If they were flawed like Eko, Kate, and Sawyer being murderers; Sayid a torturer; Jin an enforcer, they would never be asked to join. Perhaps because their flaws could be exploited by MiB in some way so they would not want them to be part of the group.

The last leader of the Others was Ben who had no clue as to what Jacob wanted because Jacob never had any dealings with him. But Ben pretended to hear from Jacob and know what he wanted so Richard went along with him.


I doubt he knew exactly how powerful the bomb was, this reminds me Richard told Daniel that he had asked the soldiers to leave peacefully. Why would he? he knows that Jacob brought them.

I don't know about the military. Perhaps they are related to DI in some way. I believe that when the science group went to the island, they were not brought. They traveled to the island on their own. In the Lamp post Dharma station (pendulum room) on the mainland, there was a picture of the island from 1954 that Jack spent a lot of time staring at. The lamp post was how Dharma figured out how to locate the island and maybe the first time they figured out how to do it was in 1954 and with it they helped the military locate the island.

.
I don't know about the military. Perhaps they are related to DI in some way. I believe that when the science group went to the island, they were not brought. They traveled to the island on their own. In the Lamp post Dharma station (pendulum room) on the mainland, there was a picture of the island from 1954 that Jack spent a lot of time staring at. The lamp post was how Dharma figured out how to locate the island and maybe the first time they figured out how to do it was in 1954 and with it they helped the military locate the island.
From the Swan Orientation tape

"Orientation"
The Dharma Initiative was created in 1970, and it is the brainchild of Gerald and Karen DeGroot -- two doctoral candidates at the University of Michigan.

I think it was an example of MIB being right about people.

But exactly who are the others? Initially I think the feeling is they were from the Black Rock. Clearly they weren't. Are they just the flotsam and jetsam that washed up on the island and for whatever reason - reasons i would like to know - were not killed by MIB.

Jacob provided the Others with lists of "good" people. These were the people who he thought were most incorruptable. All of the rest were a threat.

but the candidates were not on that list
100%

I don't know about the military. Perhaps they are related to DI in some way. I believe that when the science group went to the island, they were not brought. They traveled to the island on their own. In the Lamp post Dharma station (pendulum room) on the mainland, there was a picture of the island from 1954 that Jack spent a lot of time staring at. The lamp post was how Dharma figured out how to locate the island and maybe the first time they figured out how to do it was in 1954 and with it they helped the military locate the island.

i was thinking that maybe the founders of DI were brought to the island and then they built a the lamp post station to find out the island's exact position to send more people there

Jacob doesn't mingle, he doesn't lead and he doesn't tell anybody to do anything. There is one exception: he gives out lists of people he'd like to keep on island.

In my opinion the others were relatively clueless. Ben was their leader for like 20 years and he was perfectly clueless. It's a group of people that thinks that they are part of something special. They have been there for many years and thus they might have a better inkling of what's going on than the really clueless - like our losties (and us lol). I don't think there's more to them. They are not the good ones, they are not the ones in on it, they are just the permanent residents who ensure the continuity of attracting/ testing/ rejecting the candidates.

Jacob doesn't mingle, he doesn't lead and he doesn't tell anybody to do anything. There is one exception: he gives out lists of people he'd like to keep on island.

In my opinion the others were relatively clueless. Ben was their leader for like 20 years and he was perfectly clueless. It's a group of people that thinks that they are part of something special. They have been there for many years and thus they might have a better inkling of what's going on than the really clueless - like our losties (and us lol). I don't think there's more to them. They are not the good ones, they are not the ones in on it, they are just the permanent residents who ensure the continuity of attracting/ testing/ rejecting the candidates.

Ben admits that he never had coversations with Jacob. In season 3, Ben sends Ethan and Godwin, instructing he wants lists of names. We don't know whether Ben was doing his own thing or being instructed by Jacob through Richard. Ben has admitted he was afraid of losing his power. He must have been horrified whenver anyone new came to the Island, as this would mean another potential replacement. I think he was acting on his own all along.

I have been thinking about the diversity between Jacob and MIB. Jacob represents Faith. He gives no information and expects people to act blindly out of faith. MIB takes a different approach being more a man of Fact. When he talks to Richard he states he would never keep him in the dark. He uses this lack of information to lead Ben down the patch he chose. I find this distinct difference very interesting.

000
I have been thinking about the diversity between Jacob and MIB. Jacob represents Faith. He gives no information and expects people to act blindly out of faith. MIB takes a different approach being more a man of Fact. When he talks to Richard he states he would never keep him in the dark. He uses this lack of information to lead Ben down the patch he chose. I find this distinct difference very interesting.

And, it definitely falls into the Faith vs Science themes that have been interwoved throughout the show!
This also reminds me of the viewers. So many want concrete answers while others are content to trust the writers and see how the story plays out!

Jacob couldn't influence people to do "good". That would defeat the whole purpose of proving people are capable of it on their own. Richard pointed out that MiB was influencing people to evil and therefore the scales weren't balanced. That's why Jacob made Richard his second hand...to help counteract MiB's influence. Richard couldn't tell them what to do. We've never seen him do so where good/evil is concerned.But what sense does that make? He wanted Richard to be his go-between, without actually having Richard communicate things from him?

Jacob represents Faith. He gives no information and expects people to act blindly out of faith. MIB takes a different approach being more a man of Fact. When he talks to Richard he states he would never keep him in the dark. He uses this lack of information to lead Ben down the path he chose. I find this distinct difference very interesting.

Great summary. Getting back to the original question, everybody has a "loophole", a way to be got, corrupted, killed. Every person who comes to island are potential loopholes for those already on the island. They don't have to have H-bombs or guns to pose a threat. All they have to do is show up. Trust me, I know. I work in a cubicle.

From what we've seen in this episode, Richard's role should be quite clear: Jacob himself appointed him as his representative. This is important: so far, it seems that Richard has been the only person (currently alive) communicating with Jacob directly.

From the moment Richard is appointed as Jacob's representative, he's becoming some sort of priest -- through him the word of Jacob is spoken, through him Jacob's direction is maintained.

But when I think about Richard's appearances throughout the story so far, the way he is presented is more like of a mysterious, taciturn person rather than a charismatic advisor whose word is heeded by leaders and common people. What I fail to grasp, for example, is his relationship with Ben. I mean, I can understand why Richard may have been OK with the purge of the Dharma Initiative -- perhaps he was viewing these people as a threat because their actions could have led to a possible release of the Man In Black (the Dharma Initiative was indeed having some 'containment' problems at the Swan hatch -- a parallel to the bottle-wine-cork imagery used by Jacob).

But I don't understand why Richard let Ben do the things he did to the Losties while he was in charge. Why not be more vocal against some (if not all) of Ben's methods? Was Richard really believing that Ben was doing all that because Jacob told Ben so? Was Richard really believing that Ben could communicate with Jacob? This might be why Richard didn't stop Ben or advise him differently -- but it also strikes me as an excess of naïveté. Was Richard so gullible as to believe all that and let Ben do his plotting and scheming and torment the poor survivors of Oceanic 815? Did Richard ever have the doubt that maybe Jacob -- the Jacob he met so long ago -- was not so happy about how Ben was handling things and people?

From what we've seen in this episode, Richard's role should be quite clear: Jacob himself appointed him as his representative. This is important: so far, it seems that Richard has been the only person (currently alive) communicating with Jacob directly.

So you don't think Eloise or Widmore ever communicated with Jacob?

So you don't think Eloise or Widmore ever communicated with Jacob?

I don't know. They haven't shown Ms Hawking or Widmore talking to Jacob directly, and I tend to believe that they never communicated with Jacob as directly as Richard. Probably they communicated through Richard.

By the way, regarding my previous post, of course I stand corrected: other people have talked to Jacob besides Richard. Hurley, Ilana, the other candidates. What I meant to say before is that it seems that Richard is the only person to have communicated with Jacob at that personal a level. The scene when Jacob offers Richard a cup of wine, to me, is quite telling in this regard.

From what we've seen in this episode, Richard's role should be quite clear: Jacob himself appointed him as his representative. This is important: so far, it seems that Richard has been the only person (currently alive) communicating with Jacob directly.

From the moment Richard is appointed as Jacob's representative, he's becoming some sort of priest -- through him the word of Jacob is spoken, through him Jacob's direction is maintained.

But when I think about Richard's appearances throughout the story so far, the way he is presented is more like of a mysterious, taciturn person rather than a charismatic advisor whose word is heeded by leaders and common people. What I fail to grasp, for example, is his relationship with Ben. I mean, I can understand why Richard may have been OK with the purge of the Dharma Initiative -- perhaps he was viewing these people as a threat because their actions could have led to a possible release of the Man In Black (the Dharma Initiative was indeed having some 'containment' problems at the Swan hatch -- a parallel to the bottle-wine-cork imagery used by Jacob).

But I don't understand why Richard let Ben do the things he did to the Losties while he was in charge. Why not be more vocal against some (if not all) of Ben's methods? Was Richard really believing that Ben was doing all that because Jacob told Ben so? Was Richard really believing that Ben could communicate with Jacob? This might be why Richard didn't stop Ben or advise him differently -- but it also strikes me as an excess of naïveté. Was Richard so gullible as to believe all that and let Ben do his plotting and scheming and torment the poor survivors of Oceanic 815? Did Richard ever have the doubt that maybe Jacob -- the Jacob he met so long ago -- was not so happy about how Ben was handling things and people?


richard is not supposed to get involved. that is why he let ben do those things. richard's job was to tell the others that there is a mysterious man named jacob who has a plan for you all and you all have a choice to follow him or not. the choice to make the right choice or the wrong choice. richard is there to prove that jacob exists. he tells the other's jacob is real and he is good and he shows them by never aging.

richard has only ever been an advisor. he advises the other's about what to do but he let's them make their own choices. that is why he has never been their leader. he gives them advice but he will not force them to make the right decision.

Jacob provided the Others with lists of "good" people. These were the people who he thought were most incorruptable. All of the rest were a threat.

The lists of "good people" were survivors that were recruited to join the Others. They were separate from the list of candidates, who were never intended to become Others, as they were reserved for a higher purpose.

I attempted to explain my theories on this here: http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?t=121645

It seems candidates need not be "good," but posses some other qualities.

Then again, the Others have done more than their fair share of very bad things...

Same answer:
MAN IN BLACK: They come. They fight. They destroy. They corrupt. It always ends the same.
Always the same. Whether its the hostiles, the DI, or whoever.... they come, they fight, they destroy.

Generally that's the case, but Rose and Bernard at the end of S5 decided to opt out of the fight and to just be with a live and let live view of life. And Ben's "redemption" in "Dr. Linus"--his rejection of continuing to follow the path of the heart of darkness that MIB believes is at the core of human nature--is a compelling repudiation of the MIB's dark vision of humanity.

From the Swan Orientation tape

"Orientation"

The Dharma Initiative was created in 1970, and it is the brainchild of Gerald and Karen DeGroot -- two doctoral candidates at the University of Michigan.

Thank you for reminding me of the DeGroots.


but the candidates were not on that list
100%


i was thinking that maybe the founders of DI were brought to the island and then they built a the lamp post station to find out the island's exact position to send more people there

As I have been reminded that Dharma was formed in 1970, so I would agree with you that perhaps someone connected with the founding had been on the island. I thinking perhaps even Alvar Hanso, related to Magnus Hanso who we saw on the Black Rock. I believe Alvar also worked with the Degroots who founded Dharma.

This is true, but how do you explain the Others' malevolence towards outsiders back when Richard was apparently in charge?

Thanks for this. More evidence to support the idea that everyone (Dharma, Army, EVERYONE) who has come to the Island was Jacob's doing.

Not to mention Alvar Hanso more or less founded the Dharma Initiative, and he is a direct descendant of Magnus Hanso, captain of the Black Rock, which Jacob brought to the Island. So Dharma has connections to the Island through Jacob from its inception.

Yet these groups were in conflict with each other once they arrived. Seems fairly naive that Jacob wouldn't foresee that happening.
The fact of it is RIchard or Ricardo, actually, started from scratch. According to Jacob, at the time of their convo on the beach, every prior candidate, person brought to the Island was had already died.

If Richard's job was to protect the people on the Island from death, which was his initial main concern, he would want to make sure that newcomers knew that they could survive amply, no need to kill off your crew ala Whitfield, or take pot shots at the locals(once there were some again). Once there was a group, you would think that peaceful coexistence should be their main principle.

That and Black Smoke 101. Other things are very confusing, because if Jacob comes and touches you to bring you to the Island ( I felt that whole scene with Richard and the Dr. would've went another way had Jacob not called for him) aren't you protected somehow. Michael with the car. Locke getting shot. Surviving the plane crash.

Yet Gary Troup was a candidate (unless it's someone else in his family) but he got sucked through the engine 5 minutes after the crash. I mean Jacob granted Richard Immortality, he will never die, then shouldn't that include other causes, besides old age.

I had the thought that maybe the Island/Jacob protected the qualified candidates, which is why (other than contracts) all our losties made through the flaming arrows.
So, if Richard has mainly acted as advisor to the Hostiles, who came up with deciding if new arrivals to the Island are good or bad?? Richard?? Or, was that started by one of the previous leaders and they never abolished the practice? Richard has seemed to have a better handle throughout the show on bad and good than the average Other/Hostile, imo but it seems that some of the Others don't. Like why Hurley was never targeted for inclusion in the Others or even Claire for that matter.
I don't know...it's like TPTB have thrown the cards up in the air and I'm trying to figure out if both Jacob and MIB are partially telling the truth.

I kept thinking last night of all the candidates that past Charlie was one who proved himself. He had a deep faith, he faced and conquered his demons even though he was presented with more free heroin than a junkie could ever dream off, in a stressful situation that begged for escape. He pretty much became a truly selfless person, acting on Claire and Aaron's behalf, wanting to help Eko with his church (for noble reasons, not to pass a collection plate), ultimately sacrificing himself to get the rest rescued, (even when there was the opportunity to save his own life), Ben ordered him to be murdered, fate stepped in, and just when it seemed he'd make it, that energizer bunny Mikhail took him out, and in the way it was predicted.

It seems like Jack is lining up to be the Candidate, and though I'm liking his "drank the Island's kool-aid" style this season. I was never a big fan in the past. His complete disinterest in the mysteries of the Island seem to make him a bit of a lame duck. He was extremely narrow-minded in the past with his sole goal of getting off the Island, or reseting time.

I mean, I don't know how deep an underground nuclear test has to be to make it safe, but I would think miles.So, Jack displayed Evil of omission, he gave no thought as to how his plan would effect others(and Others) How could Eloise have thought they could detonate a nuke and still have an inhabitable Island? I don't even think he told them he was dropping it underground first.

Her son could have died in the womb, along with her, instead of at the end of he rifle. Not to mention their entire Island. Point being Jack ain't exactly a saint.

Yeah, I can see that it's shaping up that Jack's probalby The Candidate and, for the reasons you enumerated, I really have a problem with that. However, he's lived pretty peacefully among the Others even though he was being spied on and I guess being pointed in the right direction will be able to protect the Island, especially if Hurley is his advisor.
I wonder if we'll be told or see how the selection process between "good" and "bad" works??

I think it all comes down to Jacob's laissez faire philosphy: bring 'em then let 'em be. The light bulb went off in Jacob's mind when Ricardo questioned his admission that no one survived being brought to the Island because MIB always got to them. So Ricardo was made an immortal intercessor for Jacob ,and Others have survived, albeit with many clashes and casualties (Others vs Dharma,military,etc). To me, this is shaping up to be some pretty heavy-handed allegory: religion's role in the affairs of man.

why not the role of the state, the role of social organization - why is it always religion? Good and evil also reflect the kinds of governing bodies we saddle ourselves with. religion is derivative and a form of legitimizing the methods of rule we foist upon ourselves as well as a justification or method of escape for the inequality found in all social organizations. Wasn't the name John Locke chosen for a reason? I mean if everything is laden with meaning why does no one focus on the choice of the name John Locke.

Also would someone please clearly explain just who are the others? Are they really just a bunch of red shirts who washed ashore?

I think the theme of good and evil and using a "religious" theme speaks to people on a deeper level even if no particular religion is invoked. While we, presumably, all love our country, how many of us really love our government?? I think the fear that's been displayed over the use of spritual themes on this show has been eye opening, to say the least.
At any rate, after this episode, I do believe that all the Others have been brought to the Island by one mean or another which is pretty mind-blowing if you think about it. Wait! Let me amend that, the "original" Others were brought to the Island. The question of Widmore, Ellie, et al, is still up in the air because we really don't know if they were born of Others on the Island or if they were brought to the Island as children.

Richards there to let people know about jacob and that it is up to them to protect the island. After that its still a hands off game. People "leaders" dont see Jacob unless invited. The others then have the freewill to decide how the island needs protecting, thus the various survivors throughout time become "the hostiles".

good and evil in a religious framework is so banal and cliche - retro in the worst way...it's about how people treat each other - free will...
the statue was smashed - that too might be a gloss on how TPTB feel about religion...