Man, as soon as Sun mentioned in her conversation with Kate that it was Kate's idea that she poison Jin to make him stay, that pretty much killed the sympathy I had for her. Sun is sitting there thinking that Kate is her friend and that she was trying to help her when it was all a grand attempt to position herself on that boat. RRRRRR! Even with the hint that she may not be a 100% criminal, the reaction of her own mother who appeared to be terrified of her and then the evidence of her manipulation of Sun really put me off.

Man, as soon as Sun mentioned in her conversation with Kate that it was Kate's idea that she poison Jin to make him stay, that pretty much killed the sympathy I had for her. Sun is sitting there thinking that Kate is her friend and that she was trying to help her when it was all a grand attempt to position herself on that boat. RRRRRR! Even with the hint that she may not be a 100% criminal, the reaction of her own mother who appeared to be terrified of her and then the evidence of her manipulation of Sun really put me off.


Me too. I know we're supposed to have sympathy for her, lots of tears over old letters, dead boyfriends, etc...but I'm just to the point of not caring anymore. Maybe it's the actress I don't really care for...but Kate is just boring me. I'd rather have Boone back!

I'm disappointed in all of them, but I am sure that's what the writers are aiming at.

I still think Kate is a good girl, controlled by outside influences, but it was pretty creepy, when her mom started yelling for help.

When it became clear that Tom wasn't getting out of the car... in an attempt to get her to give herself up... she chose not to get out of the car with her hands up... but to shove the car in gear, ram through a parking arm right towards a policeman who had a gun pointed at her.

Uh... she was surprised when he was hit? She seems either really single minded or really selfish and she seems too intelligent to be single minded.

It's true, she's very manipulative. But I don't think its unreasonable to say she genuinely cares for Sun; that's what she does to the people she cares for - she manipulates them. Clearly, she can't help it. There's something in her past, something we haven't seen yet, that's damaged her.

I like Kate & this episode made me like her even more. *She is obviously very strong determined & I have a feeling the writers are painting a picture of what we think is an evil woman, when she may just be the opposite. *We don't know why she was running...maybe it was because of something she didn't do. *Sometimes good people do bad things & unfortunatley Kate made a bad desicion when she decided to run from the hospital. *She risked everything to go see her mom one last time! *And as far as robbing the bank, she didn't do it out of greed....

Yes it was her idea to help Sun poison Jin. *Of course she knew it would be a way to get someone off the boat, but at the same time...that's what Sun wanted to begin with, so we can't just blame Kate. *

She is obviously very strong determined & I have a feeling the writers are painting a picture of what we think is an evil woman, when she may just be the opposite

Yes, but with Kate strong and determined take a turn to the dark side into manipulation and selfishness. I totally don't think she's evil but I do think she's damaged, probably by whatever happened in her childhood that made her want to run away. It also appears that whatever her crime was it must have been pretty horrible. At first I thought that the deputies were posted to catch Kate if she showed up to visit, but after her mother yelled for help, I think that they were posted to protect her from Kate.

I think it's interesting that if you compare Kate to Shannon, everyone says "selfish and manipulative". I think because of the way their characters were introduced we tended to say Kate good, Shannon bad. After tonight's episode, it seemed as though the writers were pointing out the serious flaws in Kate's character and I personally think that both characters have been damaged by their past and that provides explanation for their actions, however I'm really interested to see where the writers are going to go with these two characters.

Maybe both her parents were really horrible..and the mom knew Kate was out for revenge..or perhaps mom did something and falsely accused Kate...or was worred that Kate would spill the beans on her. Could be a 'like mother, like daughter' thing. ;)

I don't think we are supposed to like Kate. I'm begining to suspect we are not supposed to 'like' any of them! ;)

I don't think we are supposed to like Kate. I'm begining to suspect we are not supposed to 'like' any of them!

Good point elfdream!
They sure get more messed up as the episodes go on! ::)

On other threads, her actions are being downplayed.

She choose to put that car in drive, and no matter what happened to cause her to be so scared, she was driving that car into an armed police man.

I love Kate, but she has some serious explaining to do. Maybe Tom didn't die?

Personally, I would have suggested to Sun that she talk to Jin before trying to poison him. *My mind wouldn't go there. *

When she hit the security guard in the hospital (with the bedpan??) she looked like she knew what she was doing. *On top of that, she implicated her "true love" by taking his car. *Selfish all around.

She could have just acted like her mom was out of it or didn't recognize who she was and slipped out. *Her reaction made everything worse

Yea Ive always thought kate was a snake....this episode just proves it for me.....thats my opinion.

When she told Sawyer "If I want your spot....ill take it" *I was like Oh man...this girl is ruthless....even though it turns out she didnt try it......but she did make Sun think she was trying to help.....I mean anyway you look at it....she's a cold girl.

I don't think we are supposed to like Kate. I'm begining to suspect we are not supposed to 'like' any of them! ;)


I know one thing...every week I'm beginning to dislike Jack more & more.

I know one thing...every week I'm beginning to dislike Jack more & more.


I agree with you...the way he talked to Locke about how he "kept this from me" and its like he's the president or something....I love locke's comeback about how he doesn't report to jack....thats exactly right...i mean jack has secrets too.

Yeah, when Kate told Sawyer if she wanted his spot, she would take it, I thought at that point Kate is the most dangerous person on the island. Despite her periods of vulnerability, I think she's capable of just about anything.

I'm begining to suspect we are not supposed to 'like' any of them!

Yes, I thought the same thing as the episode ended.
We go from thinking Sawyer is all cute and cuddly last week, to having him be back to being a jerk this week.
Is it really a good idea to have multiple writers? It almost seems like personalities shift with the writing of each episode.

I don't think we were supposed to like Kate in this episode. We were supposed to lose sympathy for her and see her as a very suspicious person with secret motives.

What I find truely interesting is how skillfully she took out the guard in the hospital. One whack and he was out. That takes talent and practise. Where di she get either? ???

I felt that we were given more questions about Kate than answers. Why was her mom so afraid of her? How did the toy plane end up in a bank vault after Kate left it in Tom's car? We still have no clue why Kate is running from the law.

Im a bit frustrated with kate's story. I agree with el monty.. we were damn given more questions than answers. But nonetheless kate is still my fav ;D And Jack is getting worst every ep >:(

Yes, I thought the same thing as the episode ended.
We go from thinking Sawyer is all cute and cuddly last week, to having him be back to being a jerk this week.
Is it really a good idea to have multiple writers?* It almost seems like personalities shift with the writing of each episode.



Climb on board the Sawyer Locomotion Forever Lost!! *"One step forward - two steps back..." *heavy sigh* :-\

GL *8)

One thing I haven't heard in a while is about Daddy issues. She has to have them - somewhere in the past. Sawyer, Jack, Jin and Sun (kind of), Shannon and Boone I'm sure, Locke (hello), Hurley (not quite sure), Charlie (not quite sure), Walt and Michael.......
Anyway, I wonder if that's all coincidence or something that will really come back and play a role?
Either way, Kate is a selfish girl, regardless of what happened. I just hope Father Locke can get some sense into her and help her change too.

Climb on board the Sawyer Locomotion Forever Lost!! "One step forward - two steps back..." *heavy sigh*

Well, I guess that is somewhat realistic. When put in a stressful situation, one does tend to revert to old comfortable patterns of behavior.

Ah, well.... he's still my favorite and I'm sure will provide to be very entertaining on the raft. Hope he wears his new specs :)

I love Sawyer and Kate but I was disappointed in them in this ep. *Heck I had more respect for Walt for finally fessing up to turning Raft #1 into a tiki torch. You notice how Sawyer "outed" Kate but didn't say he was escorted out of Oz by police and now that Boone's gone no one on island will ever know Sawyer was in police station being questioned.

I still like Sawyer ... guess that locomotion took 2 BIG steps back . He really acted like an IDIOT. Sighs disappointedly.

I thought that Saywer was justified in clearing his name. If it came at the expense of Kate being outed, so what! She was a jerk with all that "if I want your spot i'll take it" business. This episode, like most of you, make me like Kate less. I thought she was at her best when she delievered Claire's baby. But after that, it seems like everything she does is pretty deceiving. She seems like a nice person but ends up lying and stabbing most everyone in the back. I forget about her past sometimes because she seems to be redeeming herself once in awhile, but then undoes all her good work. I think Evangelline Lilly is a great actress, but her character is a little iffy right now.

I still like Sawyer ... guess that locomotion took 2 BIG steps back . He really acted like an IDIOT. Sighs disappointedly.

He was really nasty when she asked "why do you have to be on the raft" (or something to that effect) and he answered "because there's nothing on this island worth staying for". *I thought she kept her cool very well, if it had been me, I probably would have thrown a burning log at him...

He was really nasty when she asked "why do you have to be on the raft" (or something to that effect) and he answered "because there's nothing on this island worth staying for". I thought she kept her cool very well, if it had been me, I probably would have thrown a burning log at him...



I thought I was going to have to eat all my words with my recent support of Sawyer, lol...

I thought that was a very interesting moment, ForeverLost. If I were stranded on an island I wouldn't necessarily think that someone should stay behind because of their attachment to me if there hadn't been either prior history (like Jin and Sun) or some kind of on island attachment (like Charlie and Claire). So why should Sawyer make such a point when saying, "because there's nothing on this island worth staying for." uh... there isn't is there... so that shouldn't have needed more than a statement. And Kate seemed put off by the statement. Therefore... I think there was a purpose for that scene (more than just making Sawyer a nasty again). It just seemed to imply something going on between the two of them that, on the surface, doesn't seem to be evident. (With the exception of that wild kiss and the playfulness at the falls.) Me thinks the writers are hinting at something.

I don't know...Kate is my least favorite character. Normally I latch onto the strong women on my fav TV shows (Scully on X-Files or Olivia Benson of SVU) and they become the ones I respect the most, but I just don't like Kate. I keep trying to like her, I really do...but I can't.

True, I don't think we're supposed to feel she is perfect. However, my stomach was turning from the very beginning of the episode when she told Michael, "I'm going with you"...what right does she have to say this to him? When did she ever give one iota of energy or resources into making that raft? She never even went NEAR the thing, and now she tells him that she'll be one of the four people going? No...I'm sorry, no. That sucked. As far as I'm concerned, she has yet to prove herself useful at all on this island...all she does is butt into other people's business, and now she's a proven liar and ruthless con-artist.

My thought is that Kate is supposed to exude some kind of awesome depth that is supposed to make us (like Jack) unable to completely write her off. In fact, I think Jack is supposed to be the show's embodiment of how the audience should be reacting to Kate...distrustful and betrayed by her, aware of her huge flaws, but drawn to her anyway. I think the problem I have (and this is JUST my opinion) is that I don't see it...I don't see that depth being brought across to us successfully. I don't know whose fault it is - the writers or the actresses or both (which is what I tend to think) - but it's not working.

Anyway, Kate is not lead female to me. She's weak in my mind - she manipulates others to get what she wants and uses the people who she knows care about her the most, and doesn't really contribute anything in return. Sun is MUCH more a strong female figure to me, now that she's found her voice.

Just my two cents. :)

~Emmyjean

ForeverLost

You wanted to throw a burning log at him ....Me too although I think a burning rectal suppository might have been more appropriate especially because remember the golf game where she publically included him when everyone thought he was a leper. She tried to help him out and then he turns around and treated her like that in public ? Yep I'd have HAD to hurt him if I were her. >:(

It just seemed to imply something going on between the two of them that, on the surface, doesn't seem to be evident. *(With the exception of that wild kiss and the playfulness at the falls.) *Me thinks the writers are hinting at something.

Yes, they do seem to have a like/hate relationship....

However, Kate has been somewhat protective of him - helping him track the boar, making him go see Jack when he was having headaches. *Maybe the moment was meant to show Sawyer's disappointment in her, that he had been falling for her, that he thought her recent kindness for him meant that she cared for him, all this was wiped away in one moment when he realized that she would take his spot on the raft. *So, maybe, he felt betrayed by her and thought to show her that she meant nothing to him.

As I type this, I feal like I'm writing the summary of a Harlequin romance... ugh.
Please don't tell me the writers are going to go in this direction....

in light of all the negative reaction to Kate, I think it's really interesting that they are setting her up as evil-incarnate, reminds me of Irina-- is she good? is she bad? is she misunderstood? to me, she is the character with the most mystery (even beyond Locke and Walt, cause we sort of know everyone's back story and why there are there, but what happened to Kate matters not just to her, but relates to everyone else), and unlike my favorite TV heroines (Sydney and Scully) she's not painted as this perfect hero, she is dark, and there is a story there, it means something, and she like the rest of the characters are just so real, like real people messing up their real lives, not spies or FBI agents, just people who are wanderers, lost and uncertain... I think we feel the need to like Kate because she is so focused on, as if she is the heroine, but maybe this isn't a show about Wonder Woman, maybe it's a show about us, the girls who are cute but not sexy, who have major man trouble, who can take care of ourselves, but always mess things up... maybe we don't like her, because she is us, she isn't glamorized, she isn't glossed over or the hero, she's more realistic.... maybe?

We haven't seen any evidence that Sawyer was forced to leave Australia by the cops. I think he was fed up with being made a scapegoat for everyone's paranoia. How many times has he been blamed for things he didn't do, and just sucked it up and took it? Well I guess this was one time too many. He's kept her secret for a long time. But he was cornered, voted off the boat by Michael in a very final manner. Had his ticket stripped away from him because of Kate. Not only was it clear she was trying to get a spot on the boat, but she pretty much said to him she was after his spot. And also, she actually WAS behind the poisoning.

Anyone that uses Sun's good heart like that is scum. >:( I now only like Sun and Claire when it comes to the gals(Rose as well if she ever reappears).

At the beginning of the season Kate was one of my favorites. *Anymore I don't really like her. *I guess some of it has to do with her whole "Me Kate. *Me throw rock." attitude. *What I mean by that is how she is always acting the tough chick part and what not. *I'll explain more when I'm awake. *It's midnight and I'm not coherent.


maybe it's a show about us, the girls who are cute but not sexy, who have major man trouble, who can take care of ourselves, but always mess things up... maybe we don't like her, because she is us, she isn't glamorized, she isn't glossed over or the hero, she's more realistic.... maybe?
Personally I am nothing like Kate so that theory doesn't apply to me and my dislike for her. *I'm much more like Shannon than Kate.

I don't think they were showing Kate to be evil incarnate. I think they were showing someone who was desperate and can't help herself. In a sense here, she is like Jack when he's losing a patient. She doesn't know when to stop, she's so desperate she does things that she wouldn't normally do.

On the tape when she said she wanted to run away and Tom asked her why, she said "you know why", that leads me to believe she was being abused in some way, probably by her father. This would also explain why her mother got scared when seeing her she probably was one of those women who would never admit to what was happening under her nose to her own child by her husband. She probably did something to him and that is why she was on the run to begin with.

I think the reason why now she seems so determined that innocent people not die becase of her(Ray in Australia, the marshall on the plane, the bank manager, even wounding her partners in the knees instead of killing them) is because of what happened to Tom.

The thought of rescue is making her feel cornered, like Sawyer felt she'd cornered him and so she did some desperate stuff to just get away because she's trapped on that island and she'll go to jail if she gets rescued. I'm not saying it was right but I don't think she did it because she's evil.

I have never really formed a solid opinion of Katie, other than suspicion and distrust. *But now, I just plain don't like her. *I have a feeling I know what it was that may have started this behavior way back in her childhood, abuse of some kind, *Likely by her dad. *Maybe she killed him as a result of said abuse, then ran. *Which I think if written properly could bring back some sympathy for her. *However there have been so many situations where she clearly had a choice to do the right thing and instead served her own needs regardless the cost. *
Not so happy with Katherine right now >:(
BTW Jacka** seems an appropriate monacher for the doc lately. *He seemed to be feeling better, his strength back and all...and yet still acted like a jerk. I like how Locke put him in his place.
and when Kate said "Do you really think I'm capable of that?" (poisoning) *Didn't anyone else wonder why Jack didn't bring up the fact that SHE drugged HIM only days before????

LOSTWORD, seems we had the same assumption. I'm glad you have some sympathy for her.... ;)

Why is she desperate? What triggered her being desperate? She never gave any thought to the raft before, never tried to help Michael and ensure a seat on the raft the first time, or even the second time until now, so I don't buy that she was suddenly cornered and desperate.

Was she only just now coming to realise the raft might make it, and that rescuers might come for them? I just don't see any triggering event. So for me I won't give her a pass on that. She's been the one so actively trying to get a distress signal out before so I am a bit confused by her behaviour. How has the chance of rescue changed from before? She knew the raft would be completed eventually.

However, I do get what you are saying that she is restless, needs to keep running, that she has that compulsion not to stay in one place for too long.

It's just that for me it came across as something much more calculated than sheer desperation. Desperation implies she had no option. She had Joanna's ID, she planned what she would do. She waited till the raft was nearly done and tried to get herself a seat. She was friends with Sun and manipulated her into poisoning Jin because it served her purpose.

I don't think they were showing Kate to be evil incarnate.*

Let me clarify... they have set Kate up as this fugitive bad-girl, it was atwist from the heroine persona she started out with but i think the real twist is coming in that she isn't necsessarily bad but misunderstood or wrongfully accused... such as Irina in Alias, or in Lost-speak th eway we all thought of Sawyer as bad then we learn that he had major trauma in his childhood... or that Jin was some horrible husbad when in fact he basically sold his soul to be with Sun... not the Kate IS evil-incarnite, just that they are setting us up for a twist like with her mother's reaction, the cops after her, poisoning, etc.

Let me clarify... they have set Kate up as this fugitive bad-girl, it was atwist from the heroine persona she started out with but i think the real twist is coming in that she isn't necsessarily bad but misunderstood or wrongfully accused... such as Irina in Alias, or in Lost-speak th eway we all thought of Sawyer as bad then we learn that he had major trauma in his childhood... or that Jin was some horrible husbad when in fact he basically sold his soul to be with Sun... not the Kate IS evil-incarnite, just that they are setting us up for a twist like with her mother's reaction, the cops after her, poisoning, etc.

Actually I think the initial persona is the misunderstood/wrongly accused hoogiwhatsit... I'm thinking it will twist the other way...maybe not evil incarnate but properly understood and rightly accused...as with some of the other Lostaways. Who started out as good turns out bad etc etc

I still like Kate but I agree that she's done some very unlikeable things. I think as Lost Word mentioned, that she's desperate and that a large subplot of the show seems to be showing how people react when they're between a rock and a hard place. Most of the castaways seem to have done things out of desperation that seem unthinkable under "normal" circumstances. I guess I still believe in Kate because although she's made some bad decisions in tight spots, we've also been shown that she has the ability to make compassionate choices even under stress like her decision to go back for the farmer in the crash. I guess I'm just not ready to write her off yet ;D .

BTW Jacka** seems an appropriate monacher for the doc lately. *He seemed to be feeling better, his strength back and all...
and when Kate said "Do you really think I'm capable of that?" (poisoning) *Didn't anyone else wonder why Jack didn't bring up the fact that SHE drugged HIM only days before????
Well, I wouldn't give Jack that moniker based on him not bringing up her putting sleeping pills in his drink before. Ostensibly, he viewed that as her trying to help him get some much needed rest that he wouldn't allow himself to take rather than as an attempt to poison him.
Was she just now coming to realise the raft might make it? I just don't see any triggering event. So for me I won't give her a pass on that. She's been the one so actively trying to get a distress signal out before so I am a bit confused by her behaviour. How has the chance of rescue changed from before? She knew the raft would be completed eventually.However, I do get what you are saying that she is restless, needs to keep running, that she has that compulsion not to stay in one place for too long.It's just that for me it came across as something much more calculated than sheer desperation. Desperation implies she had no option. She had Joanna's ID, she planned what she would do. She waited till the raft was nearly done and tried to get herself a seat. She was friends with Sun and manipulated her into poisoning Jin because it served her purpose.
I believe Charlie's conversation helped to trigger her urge to flee.
Kate: "So you think the raft will work?
Charlie: "Of course, it will work. Look at that thing. It's not a raft. They built a sodding boat. They get picked up and the helicopters will come making us ridiculous and eternally famous."
Perhaps it did hit her fairly suddenly. I think she was in survival mode when she was trying to get a distress signal out and when it dawned on her that she might have a possibility of getting off of the island AND not getting caught, that she wanted to take it. I agree that her actions were calculated but I don't think that negates that she could have been feeling extremely trapped. Kate took advantage of Sun's wish to keep Jin off of the boat but ultimately Sun has to take responsibility for her actions(and I believe that she was extremely careful to ensure that the dose would not permanently injure him).

I have never really formed a solid opinion of Katie, other than suspicion and distrust. *But now, I just plain don't like her. *I have a feeling I know what it was that may have started this behavior way back in her childhood, abuse of some kind, *Likely by her dad. *Maybe she killed him as a result of said abuse, then ran. *Which I think if written properly could bring back some sympathy for her. *However there have been so many situations where she clearly had a choice to do the right thing and instead served her own needs regardless the cost. *
Not so happy with Katherine right now >:(
BTW Jacka** seems an appropriate monacher for the doc lately. *He seemed to be feeling better, his strength back and all...and yet still acted like a jerk.* I like how Locke put him in his place.
and when Kate said "Do you really think I'm capable of that?" (poisoning) *Didn't anyone else wonder why Jack didn't bring up the fact that SHE drugged HIM only days before????


I think it's off topic to be going into Jack here & ppl have their personal opinions but ..Even though both Jack/Locke have had issues w/discretion, I find differences in how they've gone about it. In the name of Locke's discretion, he destroyed the transceiver, hit Sayid, cast suspicion on an innocent Sawyer, handed Sayid a knife to handle Sawyer, hit Boone on the head & tied him up in the jungle to prevent him from telling Shannon, & in not telling Jack about the plane, contributed to Boone's death. I'm not saying he didn't have his reasons, just I find Jack's discretion more forthright in intention. And the means through which he has practiced that discretion hasn't been invasive upon others. Mentioning about ppl's pasts personally is not Jack's secret to tell. He didn't mention the guns because he didn't want ppl harming each other. By giving Sayid a knife, Locke was encouraging violence. Jack was trying to prevent it.* I'd consider Jack's demeanor toward Locke fairly benign considering the events of GG only happened one day before BTR. One can't expect Jack not to still be bothered Boone's death & that even if you don't believe Boone could have been saved, Locke's lies took away Jack's choice to at least try another course of treatment.* Locke doesn't have to answer to Jack I agree, but Jack was equally as justified in putting him in his place.

Adding that I often see Jack/Locke mentioned as the only cuplrits of deciding about discretion, but nearly everyone has done it. Whether on a personal level, or in the name of the group. Sun/Jack not telling about Kate, Charlie/Hurley, transceiver hike group/transmission, Michael/Sun speaking English, Sawyer/Sayid-the whispers, etc.

I think Kate drugging Jack is obvious in being inclusive of him thinking she may have resorted to desperate measures to poison Michael. To mention it they probably felt wasn't necessary because the audience understood it was implied.

Well, I wouldn't give Jack that moniker based on him not bringing up her putting sleeping pills in his drink before. Ostensibly, he viewed that as her trying to help him get some much needed rest that he wouldn't allow himself to take rather than as an attempt to poison him.I believe Charlie's conversation helped to trigger her urge to flee.


appologies, I was blending two thoughts here. I thought it seemed an obvious answer to he question that yes we would believe her to capable of slipping someone a mickey. The part of Jacka** (Sawyers nickname for him), I mean that he's being a bit of a Jerk lately. Yes there are soooo many stresses that could justify even the slightest grumpiness, but it just seems Jack is moving away from the initial person that was introduced... then again, he's not the only one... I guess he just rubbed me the wrong way in this epp...


I think it's off topic to be going into Jack here & ppl have their personal opinions but Locke shouldn't be casting stones either... even though both Jack/Locke have had issues w/discretion..I have to bring up the aspect that in the name of Locke's discretion, he destroyed the transceiver, hit Sayid, cast suspicion on an innocent Sawyer, handed Sayid a knife to handle Sawyer, hit Boone on the head & tied him up in the jungle to prevent him from telling Shannon, & in not telling Jack about the plane cost Boone his life. I'm not saying he didn't have his reasons, just I find Jack's discretion more forthright in intention. And the means through which he has practiced that discretion hasn't been invasive upon others. Mentioning about ppl's pasts personally is not Jack's secret to tell. He didn't mention the guns because he didn't want ppl harming each other. By giving Sayid a knife, Locke was encouraging violence. Jack was trying to prevent it. I think it was understandable in giving Locke a bit of sass seeing as Boone is dead. I'd consider Jack's demanor toward Locke fairly benign considering the events of GG only happened one day before BTR. One can't expect Jack not to still be bothered Boone's death & that even if you don't believe Boone could have been saved, Locke's lies took away Jack's choice to at least try another course of treatment. Locke doesn't have to answer to Jack I agree, but Jack was equally as justified in putting him in his place.


You're right this is a topic for another thread here's my last bit and I'm done:
They could go no further in thier accusations with out both being right or wrong. Maybe some foreshadowing of thier future conflict... Don't know just throwing that out there...
As for Kate, I'm standing firm.

Okay, that makes sense; I didn't read them as two independent thoughts ;D. I disagree that Jack has been a jerk lately but we all have differing opinions which I'm sure will be discussed in a thread focused on Jack as a character :) .

So why should Sawyer make such a point when saying, "because there's nothing on this island worth staying for."* uh... there isn't is there... so that shouldn't have needed more than a statement.* And Kate seemed put off by the statement.* Therefore... I think there was a purpose for that scene (more than just making Sawyer a nasty again).* It just seemed to imply something going on between the two of them that, on the surface, doesn't seem to be evident.* (With the exception of that wild kiss and the playfulness at the falls.)* Me thinks the writers are hinting at something.


I got the feeling that Sawyer was admitting his inability to express emotions with the statement, "Sorry's not my style" He was actually saying sorry, and his comment about nothing on the island, was a plea for her to say something. It read to me like he was the little boy, too scared to admit his feelings, and hoping the girl will do the talking for him. The problem with these 2, is that they're in love, and too broken to take advantage of it.

Kate's complex, that's for sure. I dont' think she's evil as much as she is, I cannot think of the exact word, but someone who is socially dysfunctional. Pathological keeps coming to mind, but that's not the word either, and it's not psychotic but it starts with P. Can someone help me please???

Anyway, I am absolutely certain that

Kate gets the sickness first.

I really cant help you with the P word....wish I could

But however you look at it, I think Kate is simply a snake....and you have to keep you eyes on snakes.
I just find her really deceiving, and kind of selfish....But Ive always thought that Kate was a liar and haven't trusted her since the marshall tried to warn jack about her in the pilot episode...and this episode just convinces me that she's cold blooded.

I'm slowly losing my Sawyer love. I'm going to give him to the finale but I am getting so bored with his attitude. However I do promise if I do I won't harp on it or intrude into Sawyer love fests with it.

I do think Charlie's blalther about Driveshaft's records sales going up since he was thought to be 'dead' (how weird was that to hear someone actually mention the outside world in such concrete terms?) Of course they would splattered across the newspapers and everyone would be talking about them for weeks...just like they did for those people who survived that plane crash in the Andes. I think Kate suddenly realized that this might be a real possibility after all.

I think it is highly amusing that when an episode shows ANY character in such an unflattering light we have threads like this. Charlie is a stalker/Locke is evil/Jack is unprofessional/Boone was dumb/Shannon is evil/ etc etc etc......they all seem to take turns getting bashed...either that or the X character haters just lurk around and come out of the woodwork and when they are shown them in a less than favorable light.

None of these characters is supposed to be what they seem. TPTB told us that in the begining. The good guy would be a little bad, the bad guy would be a little good..so if Kate started out as the strong female heroin and is now a manipulative schemer who uses people she is just fitting into the mold TPTB began a long time ago. We shouldn't be surprised.

If you're right about bad being good and good being bad then you might be on to something.

But still.....I dont like kate's tactics, I do think she's a survivor and I respect that, but I dont like her, I mean you just cant trust her.....and another person im really getting sick of is jack, that dude is getting to me.

The thing is, regarding being "sick of someone's attitude" or that "so-and-so isn't who I thought they were", you have to realize that these guys have been stranded *just over one month*. Kate's and Sawyer's and Shannon's and Jack's and everybody's behavior patterns have been established in them (as characters) for YEARS - Kate's been running for YEARS, Sawyer's been surly and childish FOR YEARS - they are not going to have a complete change of personality in a month.

If you're looking for real personality changes, you may have to wait the course of several seasons. :lol2:

Suse

That's true..and that's why I haven't given up on Sawyer quite yet.

The fact that I don't like Kate doesn't make me dislike the show...I'm going to watch it anyway, so if Kate's character does a turnaround then that would be lovely. And maybe the reason I dislike Kate more than the other 'flawed' characters is because they all get treated with suspicion by the other castaways because of their flaws, and Kate always got treated like some kind of leader (although I don't personally think she deserved it based on the contributions she's made to the group so far). Locke was thought to be weird, Boone incompetent, Sawyer a jerk, Jin domineering, Shannon selfish, and on and on.

The worst part is that Kate seems to act like she has a right to expect better treatment. Why would Sawyer apologize to her when they were standing by the fire? Why in the world would she expect him to be sorry for unmasking her? How can she stand there and be pitying herself when she just hurt three people directly, many indirectly, in her efforts to get what she wants? It just doesn't do anything for the character.

Not only that, I don't believe in excusing people's actions based on a rough life. A childhood graced with tragedy is a horrible thing, but all adults are fully capable of making decisions, and Kate knows what she's doing is wrong...she does it anyway. Besides, if we're passing out the sympathy cards for tough childhoods, it seems Kate should remember Sawyer's before planning to screw him over. ;)

~Emmyjean

Emmyjean,

Thank you, your post said better what I was trying to express upthread. For some reason Kate has gotten a pass from other characters all season and somehow seems to expect it. She's no better than Shannon or Sawyer, perhaps in a lot of ways worse, but while they are condemned by others she has been deemed acceptable. I believe that Jack is right in not trusting her. I mean, she is willfully manipulating everyone around her. It's almost sociopathic. Like she's good because it fits her image of herself and how she wants to be percieved by others, but when it suits her ends, she moves people around like puppets on a stage.

For some reason Kate has gotten a pass from other characters all season and somehow seems to expect it.* She's no better than Shannon or Sawyer, perhaps in a lot of ways worse, but while they are condemned by others she has been deemed acceptable.**


Well, even though Kate's made some pretty big mistakes, she's always tried to do good and redeem herself, even if it doesn't turn out right. In general, she's friendly with the other castaways (I never really understood her being labeled as an 'outsider' in a couple episodes), and always willing to be helpful. Although she's distant at times, she's very much a part of the group (thus, her sort of 'leader' thing) I think the reason Shan and Sawyer get beat up on is for their general apathy towards most of the other characters. But it seems that now that her secret's out, she's going to be shunned as well. I mean, Shannon appeared once in the whole episode just to glare at her for a few seconds. :)

I have never really formed a solid opinion of Katie, other than suspicion and distrust. *But now, I just plain don't like her. *I have a feeling I know what it was that may have started this behavior way back in her childhood, abuse of some kind, *Likely by her dad. *Maybe she killed him as a result of said abuse, then ran. *Which I think if written properly could bring back some sympathy for her. *



Why is it when one of the women behaves badly it is supposed that some sort of abuse is the cause. People said the same about Shannon. I don't see it. They never say the same about the men.

I'm more inclined to think that whatever Kate was accused of (since she told them this and not that she actually did something and yes, I know she could be lying) was some time ago. She has been running a long time. Whatever it was, her mother must have believed it and it must have been something violent of truely scary for her to act so terrified of her own daughter. And she was already dying so her reaction is on a gut level.

Does anyone think that poor Tom was her husband she mentioned to Sawyer? They broke up, maybe because of what she is supposed to have done and that's why Tom isn't afraid of her.

I still like Kate! ;D Umm better than Jack or Locke for that matter. In fact I am seeing similarities between the way Kate is written and the way Sydney Bristol is written. We still don't know what started her running. She is not the only person with a hidden past in the group. She has been more helpful around camp than Sawyer or Shannon perhaps more helpful than Hurley or Charley or Claire. She and Sun were in on the poisoning together so joint responsibility applies. Poison is a misnomer anyway since the purpose was a temporary illness (Locke doped Boone into a temporary illness too.) Kate doping Jack gave him much needed rest before he cracked up, similar to what Jack wanted to do to Claire at one point. Etc

Why is it when one of the women behaves badly it is supposed that some sort of abuse is the cause. People said the same about Shannon. I don't see it. They never say the same about the men.Umm but they did show us Sawyer's loss of his parents in a murder/suicide, Jack's problems with an alcoholic father, Locke as a foster child who finds his real dad only to be conned out of a kidney by him, Boone raised by a stepfather in a dysfunctional family, Walt not knowing his real father until he loses his mother. I feel we may have been trying to excuse the male characters, based on their past misfortune, just as often as we have the women; but I have not kept count.

Umm but they did show us Sawyer's loss of his parents in a* murder/suicide, Jack's problems with an alcoholic father, Locke as a foster child who finds his real dad only to be conned out of a kidney by him, Boone raised by a stepfather in a dysfunctional family, Walt not knowing his real father until he loses his mother. I feel we may have been trying to excuse the male characters, based on their past misfortune, just as often as we have the women; but I have not kept count.



Yes, the show has done this. What I meant was that when people here speculate about a man's past that is still in question they never put forth the idea that they were abused, sexually or otherwise. It keeps coming up with the women.

Maybe I just don't like the whole helpless vistim story line idea. Women can be rotten people without having had an abusive childhood.

I still like Kate, too. :-*

Yes, the show has done this. What I meant was that when people here speculate about a man's past that is still in question they never put forth the idea that they were abused, sexually or otherwise. It keeps coming up with the women. Ah ha the people here instead of the writers* 8) Yes I can see what you mean re us posters. However that also to a degree reflects what the writers supply. I think we throw up the helpless victim defense for 'women gone wrong' because we are used to seeing story lines portray women as victims. On the flip side, when they turn mean in their actions, we seem more willing to forgive the guys then the ladies .* Several of the guys have IMHO acted just as badly as kate or Shannon.

Hey maybe Kate was on the run to start with because she refused to play helpless victim. That would fit the back story line at this point.

Hey hey hey wait just a minute...
This is a thread about Kate, not the guys... and I don't believe I indicated that this was so general as to all the women nor did I mention any helpless victims...
When Kate and Tom were listening to the tape she makes a comment about wanting to run and said "you know why" vague, yes, but she obviously did something pretty awful to start running in the first place (as it seems) ... Abuse is a pretty good motivator and I wouldn't classify "fighting back" as helpless..
Of course this is all speculation and maybe her mom wouldn't let her eat jelly beans after 8 o'clock and that's why she's running...I think we can ALL identify with that feeling ;)

Hey hey hey wait just a minute...
This is a thread about Kate, not the guys Oops :-[* Yeah Kate does not strike me as a victim type. But we don't know if she started running to get away from a bad situation or if she was a wild child who couldn't stand being tied down and fell in with the wrong crowd.* I guess my reference to the guys would be that we seem to allow them more leeway re behavior than we do Kate. Sawyer is a con man & killer, Charley is a drug addict, thief & killer, Locke has drugged.attaked/etc others, Jack has killed & also lied for a while to protect his drunken father from medical authorities etc. Many of the guys have concealed thier past actions and hidden things from the group, yet here we are in a thread where some people feel Kate is a naughty girl for her actions. I see Kate as having acted to an equal (or higher) standard as the majority of the guys on island. So yes I still like Kate and at times admire her (No not just when she is in swim attire* ;)) Perhaps her flaw for many people is that she sometimes ursurps the male dominance role instead of being a sterotypical movieland female victim? A trait I also see in Sun.

I see your point Fogey. It seems as if the men are written in a more sympathetic light than our ladyfirends. It is nice to see such strenght and conviction in the women characters. I have my feelings about the guys too. I think Jack is a bit of a puddin himself... a little victimized too. (boy I'm gonna get it for that comment)
Anyway from my estrogen clouded mind they're all so sexy thier sins are forgivable. I wouldn't necessarily kick old Katie out of the cave, but maybe it's just a little female jealousy. That B gets to be on this island with all these hotties and all she wants to do is leave???? (oh wait, sorry, estrogen overload!!) must...settle...down... :stuart:

Kate definitely doesn't act like a victim. Perhaps she has been victimized and so makes sure if there is one now it is not her.

I think the double standard of the real world is reflected in the posts here. Men behaving badly, violent, dishonest, etc is more acceptible than the same behavior in a woman. It's like in business or politics. A tough man is admired and a tough woman is a bit¢h.

Of course it could be viewed as a compliment. We expect women to behave better than men. :D

I think that to believe that Kate gets hated because she is a strong woman, you first must believe she is a strong woman.* For that she has to be a strong character, and most of the complaints I've read about her here suggest that (at least to the people making the complaints) she is not.

I do not think male characters get their sins forgiven more easily...in fact, I think the opposite.* All a woman on TV has to do is be beautiful and display a miniscule amount of acting talent and she's 'the next big thing'.* I've said this before and I mean it - Kate is, to me, just like 10,000 other female characters I've seen on TV before.* She's nothing new, nothing deep.* Again, it's just my opinion, but I've had it since the beginning and it hasn't gotten any better with the progression of the season - in fact, it's only gotten worse - but I just don't think the character of Kate adds anything to the group in the 'Lost' world, nor to the show.in general.

I just think they could have done better for their leading lady.

One more comment on male characters vs female characters - it's a well known fact that women are cast for their looks far more often than they do men. On this show, the men are hot (whew) but look at the range of male characters compared to female. When there are only four main women compared to ten men and the women are much less diverse than the men, and this is the trend in the entertainment industry, I suppose we do expect more from our female leads. If they fail to impress, there's not alot of backup. ;)

Although if other people like Kate, as they obviously do, I'm sure they have valid reasons as well. :)* And I'm still holding out hope that she'll blow me away one day.

~Emmyjean

When there are only four main women Danielle might soon make that 5 at the rate they are going.