So... we still don't know who Penny's mother is... but by the looks of it, Eloise has come to terms with it. Penny is on her invitation list.
Daniel knows about her as well, and her habits, but we still don't know if she lives with them or not.
There were two other names mention with Penny's when they were discussing seating arrangements.

The Widmore Family...they need a theme song!
Wonder how happy they all are...together?!
I wonder what triggered Daniel the musician to experience Daniel the physicist - just the sight of Charlotte?

The Widmore Family...they need a theme song!
Wonder how happy they all are...together?!
I wonder what triggered Daniel the musician to experience Daniel the physicist - just the sight of Charlotte?
I think so. I think the theme here is 'love' breaks the barrier of then and now. It somehow brings them back the their real life before the explosion...
Charlie when he saw Claire, Daniel when he saw Charlotte eating chocolate, and Desmond when he touched Penny's hand.

So if Penny's name is Milton, is she married to someone? Or divorced? Is there a "Milton" we've encountered before?

I cant come up with a Milton, but I assume its a refernce to John Milton, who wrote "Paradise Lost," which deals with the fall of man and good and evil.

I think so. I think the theme here is 'love' breaks the barrier of then and now. It somehow brings them back the their real life before the explosion...
Charlie when he saw Claire, Daniel when he saw Charlotte eating chocolate, and Desmond when he touched Penny's hand.Strong emotional connection with someone in both universes causes inter-universal flashes. I think that's it. Love works. Hate might, too.

So if Penny's name is Milton, is she married to someone? Or divorced? Is there a "Milton" we've encountered before?More likely, I think, Milton is the last name of Penny's mother, and she was raised by her mother.

I cant come up with a Milton, but I assume its a refernce to John Milton, who wrote "Paradise Lost," which deals with the fall of man and good and evil.

Sounds good to me.

So if Penny's name is Milton, is she married to someone? Or divorced? Is there a "Milton" we've encountered before?

John Milton, Paradise Lost (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Lost)

*clip*...
The poem concerns the Christian story of the Fall of Man: the temptation of Adam and Eve by the fallen angel Satan and their expulsion from the Garden of Eden. Milton's purpose, stated in Book I, is to "justify the ways of God to men" and elucidate the conflict between God's eternal foresight and free will.

Milton incorporates Paganism, classical Greek references, and Christianity within the poem. It deals with diverse topics from marriage, politics (Milton was politically active during the time of the English Civil War), and monarchy, and grapples with many difficult theological issues, including fate, predestination, the Trinity, and the introduction of sin and death into the world, as well as angels, fallen angels, Satan, and the war in heaven.

ETA: :doh: I see WhatWouldJeffDo beat me to it.

I think so. I think the theme here is 'love' breaks the barrier of then and now. It somehow brings them back the their real life before the explosion...
Charlie when he saw Claire, Daniel when he saw Charlotte eating chocolate, and Desmond when he touched Penny's hand.

Oh didn't even catch the chocolate comment. Nice.

So if Penny's name is Milton, is she married to someone? Or divorced? Is there a "Milton" we've encountered before?

I agree with Ed and others that Milton is likely her mother's last name.

Frankly, it's about time that John Milton was mentioned on the show, no? Ha.

Strong emotional connection with someone in both universes causes inter-universal flashes. I think that's it. Love works. Hate might, too..

Hate is the love-connection kryptonite. That's why Flocke had to give Claire "someone to hate" - so she wouldn't make the love-connection to the alt universe . . .

The Widmore Family...they need a theme song!
Wonder how happy they all are...together?!
I wonder what triggered Daniel the musician to experience Daniel the physicist - just the sight of Charlotte?
My vote for a theme song would be "The Adams Family" since we have seen both creepy and kooky from this bunch.

I like that her last name could be a nod to John Milton, fits in with the other literature references.

Said it in the "Viewing" thread that love is the strongest, truest emotion which is allowing for the bleed through. Hate might work but it resides in a much more primitive level of the brain that I don't think it would have the same effect. Which could also be Flockes undoing since he only seems to operate/relate to others through baser emotions i.e. fear and hate.

Trixired: just like with Harry Potter (if you are a fan/reader of that series).

Hate is the love-connection kryptonite. That's why Flocke had to give Claire "someone to hate" - so she wouldn't make the love-connection to the alt universe . . .
Maybe, but..
So far it is only three men that have experienced the connection. Neither Claire, nor Charlotte, nor Penny have.. they have only been the catalysts.
She may still experience it when she gives birth, or perhaps when she sees Charlie face to face.

I think so. I think the theme here is 'love' breaks the barrier of then and now. It somehow brings them back the their real life before the explosion...
Charlie when he saw Claire, Daniel when he saw Charlotte eating chocolate, and Desmond when he touched Penny's hand.

And our first clue, Juliet and Sawyer.
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Maybe, but..
So far it is only three men that have experienced the connection. Neither Claire, nor Charlotte, nor Penny have.. they have only been the catalysts.
She may still experience it when she gives birth, or perhaps when she sees Charlie face to face.

Claire experienced it through the love of her child. She named him Aaron and "just knew", remember?

Between that and the Juliet/Sawyer interaction, I really like how all of this is coming together.

And our first clue, Juliet and Sawyer.
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Love bridges universes and makes you want to go for coffee.

Cardie

Love bridges universes and makes you want to go for coffee.

Cardie

Ha, Cardie!

And our first clue, Juliet and Sawyer.
100%
.
Good point. It's interesting that Sawyer has already seen Kate, and did not experience the connection. Seems like his true love will be Juliette. Wonder how that will be when he realizes it.

Claire experienced it through the love of her child. She named him Aaron and "just knew", remember?

Excellent point! That appears to be the first connection way back in EP03.

Hate is the love-connection kryptonite. That's why Flocke had to give Claire "someone to hate" - so she wouldn't make the love-connection to the alt universe . . .

great point-out... when he said that, I thought, why not help her see the truth? why give her someone to hate? why not help her heal and move past the loss? that moment felt very "telling" to me, but even more so after tonight's episode -- all about love :)
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Good point. It's interesting that Sawyer has already seen Kate, and did not experience the connection. Seems like his true love will be Juliette. Wonder how that will be when he realizes it.

we don't know that for sure... this explanatory episode hadn't happened yet... he did seem to have an unexplored realization moment when he caught her in the alley and said "son of a... B"... it could have been just that he remembered her from the plane, but it could have also been much more... which I admittedly hope to be true :)

Penny didn't have an immediate spark remembrance tonight... so I am wondering if the "remembrance" is coming 1st to the guys? and wonder if that has something to do with the Candidate List made up of all guys at this point... and if it's tied to why Sawyer is 15 and Kate is 51, is that a hint too?
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Love bridges universes and makes you want to go for coffee.

Cardie

Starbucks is the key!!!

Good point. It's interesting that Sawyer has already seen Kate, and did not experience the connection. Seems like his true love will be Juliette. Wonder how that will be when he realizes it.

Ahhhh, and Kate seemingly DID when she and Jack locked eyes from the back of Claire's cab in the Sideways. That could be a hint at how the 'ships end up after the finale! (Not that we didn't all suspect that Jack and Kate would end up together anyway)

As soon as Desmond made that date with Penny, I thought, wouldn't it be cool if Sawyer and Juliet were in that cafe too. Sorry, I am having a shipper moment.;):

Perhaps they'll sign a product placement deal with Starbucks and the last scene of the finale will be a montage of coffee shops with every imaginable ship sipping away. ;)

Cardie

I guess she would be the person Widmore left the island and had an affair with which got his banished from the island to begin with. She could be younger than Daniel, I guess, so after he was shot by his own mom (Eloise), Widmore and Eloise fell apart and Widmore left the island and had the affair??

Make sense?

apparently charles was able to come and go as he pleased from the island(why?), he was still part of the island population when he had the affair, because that is presumably what got him banished-- somebody found out that charles was leaving the island and had this child-penny

If she's younger than Daniel, then she is 19 or younger in "The Constant", which takes place after he was going to propose to her (Flashes Before Your Eyes).

Margo Sheppard of course!

Margo Sheppard of course!

Egads. Jack better never have sex with anyone again without a DNA test. He runs a serious risk of sleeping with his own sister otherwise.

If she's younger than Daniel, then she is 19 or younger in "The Constant", which takes place after he was going to propose to her (Flashes Before Your Eyes).

What's the math on this?? Can you please show your work...? :biggrin:

What's the math on this?? Can you please show your work...? :biggrin:
Eloise is pregnant with Daniel in 1977 (at least, most of us assume that's who she was pregnant with; I suppose it was never confirmed, but it's heavily implied). That means he was born in 77 or 78, making him 18 or 19 in 1996, the year when "The Constant" takes place.

Penny's mom is either going to be someone so important that the reveal will make everyone's head explode, or she'll be so unimportant that the writers will never mention her. I can't really see any point in revealing her otherwise.

-steve

What's the math on this?? Can you please show your work...? :biggrin:

Eloise was pregnant with Daniel in 1977, meaning he was born in '77 or '78. In the Constant, Desmond was flashing to his 1996 self. That means, in 1996, Faraday was only 19-ish years old. In The Constant, Desmond woke up in the military in 1996, which he joined after he ditched Penny. If Penny is younger than Daniel, she should have been in high school still practically in 1996. If she's older, than Widmore had an affair before 1977 and before Eloise ever left the island with Daniel.

Eloise is pregnant with Daniel in 1977 (at least, most of us assume that's who she was pregnant with; I suppose it was never confirmed, but it's heavily implied). That means he was born in 77 or 78, making him 18 or 19 in 1996, the year when "The Constant" takes place.

That's a bit awkward. Sort of like the whole debate about how old Jack was when David was conceived...

Daniel seemed to have been completing his doctorate in the episode where Eloise presents him with the journal... and had just received a large research grant from Charles Widmore...

He was apparently doing this research at Oxford when Des found him there in 1996.

I know he was supposed to be a prodigy, but WOW!

wouldnt it be cool if it were libby??

Margo Sheppard of course!

Oh geeze, now that would be twisted! But you know, Christian made a comment about his wife that always bugged me. I believe it was in one of the missing pieces. It's when he gives Jack the watch from his father, before Jack gets married. He tells Jack something about his father never liking his wife (paraphrasing) and that his dad didn't want him to marry her. But unlike him (Christian), Jack is right to be marrying Sarah. Weird. So maybe Margo wasn't faithful?

wouldnt it be cool if it were libby??

Libby isn't old enough to be Penny's mom.

It's very clear to me that the idea to make Dan, Ethan and Miles Dharma babies in 1977-78 was hatched after they cast people who were clearly well over thirty in 2004; the actors are respectively 39, 39, and 38 when they first appear in 2004, island time. The opposite happened with Charlotte, who is supposed to be five or six years older than Ethan but was cast with a 28-year-old actress.

Cardie

As soon as Desmond made that date with Penny, I thought, wouldn't it be cool if Sawyer and Juliet were in that cafe too. Sorry, I am having a shipper moment.;):

I think whem (and if) we see Desond and Penny in the cafe, we'll see Libby (like last time), and it would be cool to see Hurley walk in as the owner or something.

Penny's mom is either going to be someone so important that the reveal will make everyone's head explode, or she'll be so unimportant that the writers will never mention her. I can't really see any point in revealing her otherwise.

-steve

If one can buy into the premise that Penelope Widmore is in her 30s and Zoe i within a five year range [=> actress' date of birth in 1961], we have a very credible age disparity between Penny and Zoe as daughter and mother. This ties in with other parallels on Lost to date, particularly in the Charles-Eloise-Daniel-Penelope-Zoe arena:

1. Charles, presumed born in 1937 is a mover and shaker, not above violence to advance an agenda;

2. He is drawn to bright, challenging and proactive young women [Eloise] from an early age;

3. His focus on these women seems to fit a hierarchy in which a shared task is primary, and the human attraction is subsumed within the shared task;

4. The attraction is reciprocal and similarly ignited; [and with the same heirachy of task>emotion;

5. A Zoe born between 1956 and 1958 [17-19 in 1975] would be capable of mothering a child born in 1975-6-7. Shiela Kelley was born in 1961. [There are far bigger actor-role age stretches on Lost].

6. The Island's physical uniqueness seems geophysically based; and Zoe is a gifted geophysicist;

7. If the presumption of mentor-lover-sponsor-employer progression between Charles & Zoe holds true, then Charles has shared his history with the Island with Zoe. She is aware of the dangers and she has the guts to buy into the venture.

8. If she is Penny's mother, then she, like most other characters has a dual agenda: explore the Island's geophysical mystery; get Ben, who tried to kill her daughter.

For an additional link to John Milton's Paradise Lost, see Google reference to Armand Iannucci's BBC series on Paradise Lost, directed by Zoe Silver.

The Widmore Family...they need a theme song!

Widmores! Meet the Widmores!
They're an "other" kind of family!
From the ship called Black Rock...
(Never mind -- that's Whitfield! Pardon me!)

Someday, maybe Charles will win the fight!
Then that,, "Locke-thing" would be stuck, all right!

When you're with the Widmores,
You'll get LOST among the good times!
The "constant" good times!
Somewhere in space and time!

- mnw

(Oh, Danny boy -- your life, real life, is calling!)
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Penny's mom is either going to be someone so important that the reveal will make everyone's head explode, or she'll be so unimportant that the writers will never mention her.

Well, if the whole series turns out to have been a game, she could be a member of the Milton-Bradley clan!

If one can buy into the premise that Penelope Widmore is in her 30s and Zoe i within a five year range [=> actress' date of birth in 1961], we have a very credible age disparity between Penny and Zoe as daughter and mother. This ties in with other parallels on Lost to date, particularly in the Charles-Eloise-Daniel-Penelope-Zoe arena:

1. Charles, presumed born in 1937 is a mover and shaker, not above violence to advance an agenda;

2. He is drawn to bright, challenging and proactive young women [Eloise] from an early age;

3. His focus on these women seems to fit a hierarchy in which a shared task is primary, and the human attraction is subsumed within the shared task;

4. The attraction is reciprocal and similarly ignited; [and with the same heirachy of task>emotion;

5. A Zoe born between 1956 and 1958 [17-19 in 1975] would be capable of mothering a child born in 1975-6-7. Shiela Kelley was born in 1961. [There are far bigger actor-role age stretches on Lost].

6. The Island's physical uniqueness seems geophysically based; and Zoe is a gifted geophysicist;

7. If the presumption of mentor-lover-sponsor-employer progression between Charles & Zoe holds true, then Charles has shared his history with the Island with Zoe. She is aware of the dangers and she has the guts to buy into the venture.

8. If she is Penny's mother, then she, like most other characters has a dual agenda: explore the Island's geophysical mystery; get Ben, who tried to kill her daughter.

For an additional link to John Milton's Paradise Lost, see Google reference to Armand Iannucci's BBC series on Paradise Lost, directed by Zoe Silver.

Wait wait wait WHAT?!?! I dislike your theory as much, maybe more, than the "Charlie Pace is Charlie Hume" theory. Which is a lot.

I see absolutely NO ATTRACTION, NO CHARISMA, NOTHING ROMANTIC between Widmore and Zoe. His attitude towards her seems sort of like "Uh, I can't believe I picked this stupid little girl to be my #1. Makes me wish I had my 30 Rock DVDs...That Tracy Jordan, he so CA-RAZY!"

The only one that'd make sense that I can think of is Charlie's mom or Charlotte's mom. I'm talking about Penny, not Zoe. Before this mission, Zoe's job was teaching kids how to drop Mentos into bottles of soda.

BOO-YA!
I gotta check out that "Stop calling Zoe TINA FEY!" thread. Might be good jokes in there.

Interesting script note: In Jorge's podcast for this episode (google Geronimo Jack's Beard if you wish), they say that Penny's name is listed as Mansfield while they are talking about the script. Then in the post-episode section that they record after seeing the ep on TV, they noted that her name changed from Mansfield to Milton. So it's probably not of earth-shaking significance if it was a last minute change.

It might be a clearance thing. They have to check all the names they create and use on the show and maybe Mansfield triggered a potential problem.

I see absolutely NO ATTRACTION, NO CHARISMA, NOTHING ROMANTIC between Widmore and Zoe. His attitude towards her seems sort of like "Uh, I can't believe I picked this stupid little girl to be my #1. Makes me wish I had my 30 Rock DVDs...That Tracy Jordan, he so CA-RAZY!"

!. What you see between Charles Widmore and Zoe does not drive the plot line of Lost. Charisma, on the other hand, usually emanates from one character to to others whom that primary source influences. Perhaps Charles is the well source of the charisma you fail to see.

Also, the charismatic sparks that might have flown between Charles and Zoe, according to my theory on Zoe's motherhood, happened over 30 years ago, when Charles was 38 and Zoe was @ 20. At those ages, a two-way charisma between dynamic, intelligent characters seems more than just possible.

The only one that'd make sense that I can think of is Charlie's mom or Charlotte's mom. I'm talking about Penny, not Zoe. Before this mission, Zoe's job was teaching kids how to drop Mentos into bottles of soda.Perhaps Mentos and soda are the ultimate sources of the Island's geophysical properties.

I gotta check out that "Stop calling Zoe TINA FEY!" thread. Might be good jokes in there.Boo-Yah fits better in that thread, too.

Now, given the content of your post, do you have anything relevant to Zoe [as presented in the plot, [not how you dislike her] that would nix her motherhood of Zoe? In other words, Got milk?

I agree with some of the earlier posters about love being the connection between the alt. and the island timelines. I had noticed this as well. Also about Penny and Daniel being half-siblings, I think they had hinted at it a couple of times but it was still nice to have it validated. I hope that we get more of that backstory, but I'm not counting on it due to the fact that there are only 5 episodes left. :sob:

So if Penny's name is Milton, is she married to someone? Or divorced? Is there a "Milton" we've encountered before?

I'm assuming her mother's last name was Milton and she goes by that name in the other reality presumably because she didn't know Charles until recently. It's been clear from season 5 when she didn't recognise Eloise or the name Daniel Faraday that she either wasn't Daniel's full sister or was, but didn't know it.

In the ORIG Charles never married Eloise but apparently did eventually marry the mother of his off-island daughter. In the ALT he married Eloise and raised Daniel with her and the daughter produced by his affair with the off-island woman presumably grew up with her mother's maiden name, Milton. That would be the case even if she did always know Charles was her father.

Cardie