Interesting bit...Walter was waiting for a sign from God, in whom he now believes. Peck states that God is to be found in science -- not a denial of the existence of God, like Walter would have issued earlier, but more along the idea that many scientists hold that God is natural, not supernatural, and that the laws of science reflect the work of God. So, Peck, not God, sends Walter the sign, something he was able to do because of science. Walter, having no memory of their meeting, receives the white tulip as his sign from God.

Comment from TPTB that they feel the speech from Peck to be true? God working through science in the everyday lives of people?

It's not at all unusual that those who probe the boundaries of reality come to find God. The complexities of the universe do not suggest a system that has come out of total anarchy. Sagan was a VERY spiritual cat (R.I.P Carl), It was, in fact, important enough for him to publish an excellent book about the whole thing entitled The Varieties of Scientific Experience - A Personal View of the Search for God.

On a semi related note, I just finished watching the episode, and IMO, best episode of Fringe yet.

The complexities of the universe do not suggest a system that has come out of total anarchy.Have to say that, believe that or not, I didn't see any indication of consideration of that concept in the show.

Please be careful -- While this site does not prohibit discussion of religious belief, it allows it only in the context of speculation and consideration of what went on in the shows discussed. Anything too far beyond that comes at the risk of invoking the rule against discussion of controversial topics. I should have added some comment to that effect to my original post in this thread. Please make sure that comments on religion remain in the context of the show.

Have to say that, believe that or not, I didn't see any indication of consideration of that concept in the show.

Please be careful -- While this site does not prohibit discussion of religious belief, it allows it only in the context of speculation and consideration of what went on in the shows discussed. Anything too far beyond that comes at the risk of invoking the rule against discussion of controversial topics. I should have added some comment to that effect to my original post in this thread. Please make sure that comments on religion remain in the context of the show.

With all due respect, Ed, this is a very slippery slope:

1. We have in the latest Fringe episode a physicist and a mathematician whose lives have been disastrously affected by their individual brilliance coupled with an inability to accept the actualities of their life experiences.

2. Both brilliant minds are devastated, one fatally, by a time correction both murderous and suicidal, dramatic emphasis citing the former and finding just resolution in the latter.

3. We skate each episode on the thin ice of Reality is the multiple, parallel and seemingly conflicting universe[s] often violating the credibility of human rationality at every milepost.

The sum of all of the above is the stuff of The Fringe; and if an enthusiastic fan wants to share in the contextual applicability of a great book addressing this very universal human struggle, one is here forewarned not to do so, lest another's sensibilities are offended by the perception of subjective religiosity.

Man, that's a judgment call I want no part of, either at the informal discussion, literate inspection, enthusiastic inquiry, or personal resonance levels.

LOL I agree Nan. And I'm not sure about you guys, but I get the sense JJ has a very spiritual side to him that he is trying to put out there to a degree. There are a lot of similarities between Lost and Fringe thematically, and even though we don't know where Lost's story will ultimately end up, you can't deny the spirituality aspect is very high this season. And I'm curious how you didn't see the idea that at least one of these men found God through science. Walter asked God for a sign, that's what the whole episode was about.

Walter (to Peck): Until I took my son from the other side, I had never believed in God. But it occurred to me that my actions had betrayed him.

Yes, he goes on to explain to felt that everything that he had gone through after that was God punishing him, but the underlying idea that Walter is projecting here is that he felt at one time breaking the Law of Nature was merely a challenge to be surmounted. But once he took Peter, it's likely that he began to feel that just because those Law of Nature could be broken, that doesn't mean they should be. He was likely wracked with guilt over what he did to Peter's alt-family, and as he pursued that thread he came to the realization that what he did was an affront to God.

On the other side you have Peck who has not had that history, and therefore disagrees with Walter. They both shared the exact same philosophy, but whereas Peck had convinced himself (apparently correctly) that he would ultimately hurt no one but himself and a few blades of grass, Walter used his skills to injure someone else. While it was not intentional, you could almost imagine, knowing this Walter as we do, that maybe the kidnapping of Peter drove alt-Walt mad with grief and he's the one driving the collision course between the universes.

I think the God = Science ? that was raised tonight will be in the forefront of the remainder of the series. Lost is big on science vs faith, and I think this will be going towards science vs God. Considering Alias was science vs mythology (and I guess old school davinci style science...I lost track a couple of seasons in), this would make sense.

As for the philosophy, I think had Peck been in the same position Walter was in, he would have ended up on the same path, but since Peck was only out to reunite himself with his fiancee in time to die with her, he never had to face the quandry of creating permanent injury to someone. It is interesting to note though, that though it was likely a message, he did seem generally sorry that the kid had to go through with finding the bodies on the train again.

I'm curious how you didn't see the idea that at least one of these men found God through science. Walter asked God for a sign, that's what the whole episode was about.That's not what I meant, though. I didn't say that I didn't see that one of the men found God through science -- that was made extremely clear. See, I think we have a bit of a misunderstanding due to differing points of view on God (or god, for that matter). Your comment above concerned God the creator. What I saw in the show, as well as what I see in the rest of your last post was about God the controller. What I meant to say in my last post was that there was no mention of the method of creation of the universe, through random means or otherwise, in the show. However, there was plenty of reference to God the controller of the universe. To wit:

Walter (to Peck): Until I took my son from the other side, I had never believed in God. But it occurred to me that my actions had betrayed him.

Yes, he goes on to explain to felt that everything that he had gone through after that was God punishing him, but the underlying idea that Walter is projecting here is that he felt at one time breaking the Law of Nature was merely a challenge to be surmounted. But once he took Peter, it's likely that he began to feel that just because those Law of Nature could be broken, that doesn't mean they should be. He was likely wracked with guilt over what he did to Peter's alt-family, and as he pursued that thread he came to the realization that what he did was an affront to God.

Walter sees, as many scientists do, a God which directs the laws of nature. He also sees that he had violated those laws. Peck sees a god that is represented in the laws of nature. The argument that god is science essentially says that science is the study of the work of god. To the extent that Peck had faith in a god at all, he sent the white tulip, himself. The most that could be said, then, of his faith was that his actions were in line with the formless motivating force that directs the universe, that being his idea of god. Walter, on the other hand, sees more of an animate, cogent -- and vengeful -- God.

Peck's version of god, at least, could accommodate the origin of the universe from, as you put it, Enigma, "anarchy." However, so could Walter's version of God. Peck would almost certainly understand the universe as having originated through natural, not supernatural means. Walter did not lay out for us the properties of his God, beyond his being a defender of the laws of nature, though, so he could easily possess a similar understanding.

And, on another subject, by the way, if I might hold myself up as an example of my mod comment above, in no place in the post, or in this thread, or in fact, anywhere on these boards, have I let on about my own religious sentiments. I've only commented on what I think the religious sensibilities portrayed in the show might be. That's what's allowed on these boards.

Don't know if this is the thread for this or not but I was angry at Peck "playing God" with Walter. While he may have done it to provide Walter with some peace it was not his place to give Walter forgiveness. Peck may have meant well but the fact is Walter did something very wrong that Peck had no direct pain as a result. Forgiveness was just not his to give and now he has made Walter think the cosmos has forgiven him.

I think that's a valid point to make, wanders. But what Peck did was certainly in character. He felt god was to be found in science. And that statement doesn't necessarily imply that he didn't believe in God, or that science was his "god." Many scientists who are religious see God's work in science. So you might see what he was doing as "playing god," or you might see it as carrying out God's will, as he saw it. He certainly didn't believe in an animate, anthropomorphic God that would wreak vengeance on Walter for what he did, so he must have felt he was doing Walter a favor by granting him the seemingly -- or perhaps genuinely -- cosmic forgiveness he gave him. He certainly would have felt he had nothing to lose, since he was consciously destined to die. I can't see that there's any arguing against the idea that he meant well, at least.

I think the spectrum of religious sentiment this season is really interesting. We had the interaction between Walter and Carla Warren who was a person of apparently fairly standard religious beliefs, where Walter was a hardcore atheist. Then we had the interaction between Walter and Peck, neither of whom at that point denied the existence of a god, but both of whom had their own ideas about god. I'm interested to see where else TPTB take this!

[quote=EdMuse;2328880] ... so he must have felt he was doing Walter a favor by granting him the seemingly -- or perhaps genuinely -- cosmic forgiveness he gave him.

Yep.

Surely there isn’t anyone who thinks that Walter really believes that God/god grabbed a notepad, sketched a rough estimation of a tulip, popped it in an envelope, and pushed it through the mail slot!
Peck isn't playing God. He's trying to help someone he respects, someone who is going through a terrible pain that Peck can, in some way, relate to as no other can. If he was trying to really fool Walter, he might have arranged for his co-worker to leave a tulip on Walter's doorstep. At least that would have felt more genuine than getting something in the mail.
Instead, Peck sent a message, in a short amount of time that he had, a message that confirmed what we already know: People don't need permission, or forgiveness, or right on their side. They need to BELIEVE they have it on their side. Walter doesn't need God to forgive him. Whether there is a god involved or not doesn't seem to be the issue. Walter was moving on once he got his sign, the sign that he, not the god, picked. It was all a construct of Walter's creation, and when his personal parameters were met, he allowed himself to move on. God didn't set the parameters, and God didn't meet the parameters. That was never what was at play here. People were at play here. People set the parameters. People met them. People moved on.
Walter's God (real or not) didn't hear his request, didn't bring him the tulip. He could have encountered one anywhere, frankly, and it would not have been any more truly significant than the one mailed to him. It's significant because Walter gives it significance.

I, too, have refrained from voicing my religious beliefs. ;)

Walter was moving on once he got his sign, the sign that he, not the god, picked. It was all a construct of Walter's creation, and when his personal parameters were met, he allowed himself to move on. God didn't set the parameters, and God didn't meet the parameters. That was never what was at play here. People were at play here. People set the parameters. People met them. People moved on.Ooh, now there's a really good point. From a traditional religious standpoint, it was pretty presumptuous for Walter to specify exactly what sort of sign of forgiveness God should send him. Imagine if Walter had had a more traditional perception of God as an entity who is not to be challenged. He might have asked for a sign of forgiveness, or perhaps he might have simply asked forgiveness and given his own sign of repentance. Then he would have had to communicate that idea to Peck, and Peck would have had no specific way to communicate that idea of forgiveness. But as you said, Team Taskmaster, Walter set the parameters for forgiveness, so Peck was able to meet those parameters.