Sun recognized Locke as the MIB in the FS. Think about it.

Sun recognized Locke as the MIB in the FS. Think about it.

I believe that Sun recognized him because she is already near-dear from the gunshot. Therefore, she has started being cross-aware. FS-Sun recognized FS-JohnLocke as MIB.

This 'proof' is not proof at all.

If Jughead caused the FS, then all present day memories would need to be of events that took place before the TT to 1977.

How is it proof? You can't make a statement without giving your rationale if you want people to think anything of it.

This 'proof' is not proof at all.Agreed...

If Jughead caused the FS, then all present day memories would need to be of events that took place before the TT to 1977.We've seen several instances of characters in the sideways becoming aware of acquaintances in the original timeline. Why would it be that, when Sun recognizes Locke, that becomes proof of anything new?

I agree with the poster who suggested that she was having a near-death experience, which is one of the things we've seen allowing awareness of the alternate timelines.

We've seen several instances of characters in the sideways becoming aware of acquaintances in the original timeline. Why would it be that, when Sun recognizes Locke, that becomes proof of anything new?

Because her memories of Locke as the MIB are from events that transpired after the other Losties TTed to 1977 and set off Jughead. If you choose to believe that theory, that's when the split occurred. So it would be impossible to remember anything from the original timeline if it happened after the TT. There's your proof.

Because her memories of Locke as the MIB are from events that transpired after the other Losties TTed to 1977 and set off Jughead. If you choose to believe that theory, that's when the split occurred. So it would be impossible to remember anything from the original timeline if it happened after the TT. There's your proof.
That's no different than Charlie remembering Claire or Hurley remembering Libby. It shows they are connected somehow to the consciousness of their island counterparts more than it shows where in time the split happened. We've already seen FS people "remembering" stuff that hasn't happened yet if the time lines were in sync.

I suppose, if anything, it is the most clear example of that asynchronous connection. 2004 => 2007? Or is it 2008 on the island? I've lost track.

The biggest proof that the bomb didn't cause the FS is Ben. Jughead didn't cause the FS because in the FS Ben went to the island and left with his dad. When in the original timeline he was with the others in the Temple. So if we are lead to believe that detonating the bomb caused the FS then Ben would not be alive in the FS.

As far as Sun goes. I think the moment she freaks out about the sight of Locke is the moment she dies on the Island which must be coming soon. The people who have died on the island in the original timeline all seem to "know things" and have the memories up to their deaths. Which tells me that Locke has something to do with Suns death. Of course this is all speculation that Sun dies otherwise I am blowing black smoke out my you know what.

Because her memories of Locke as the MIB are from events that transpired after the other Losties TTed to 1977 and set off Jughead. If you choose to believe that theory, that's when the split occurred. So it would be impossible to remember anything from the original timeline if it happened after the TT. There's your proof.Gotta say, it would have been nice to read all that in your original post, so I would at least know what you were talking about. Beyond that, where do you get the idea she recognized Locke as Smocke? I only got that she recognized him.

Gotta say, it would have been nice to read all that in your original post, so I would at least know what you were talking about. Beyond that, where do you get the idea she recognized Locke as Smocke? I only got that she recognized him.

I may be wrong, but I think the reason that Sun's recognition of Locke is sticking out is because of her reaction to recognizing Locke. If I remember correctly Locke had never done anything to Sun for her to be that worked up over recognizing him. On the other hand, if she is recognizing Locke AS the MIB then it would make her reaction a bit more plausible, because she has plenty of knowledge of the smoke monster and what it has done. I don't recall but if she is aware (in the island timeline) that Locke is the MIB/smoke monster, and she is now starting to recall her island timeline memories (whether it be due to having a near death experience or not) then her reaction to seeing Locke would be due to her seeing him as the MIB.

I agree that it seemed that Sun recognized Locke as Smocke - hence her fearful "No.. No" as she was wheeled into the hospital.

And yes ... this would be a memory of an event that occurred post Jughead. Interesting.

The biggest proof that the bomb didn't cause the FS is Ben. Jughead didn't cause the FS because in the FS Ben went to the island and left with his dad. When in the original timeline he was with the others in the Temple. So if we are lead to believe that detonating the bomb caused the FS then Ben would not be alive in the FS.
He had already been saved by the time the Incident happened. He was with the Others, yes, but we would have been returned later, just like in the original timeline. We don't know when the Island sank in the alt.

There has been no definitive proof that the alt didn't originate at the Incident. As has been said, Sun remembering FLocke is no different than Libby remembering Hurley, Daniel remembering Charlotte, Kate remembering Jack, etc.

He had already been saved by the time the Incident happened. He was with the Others, yes, but we would have been returned later, just like in the original timeline. We don't know when the Island sank in the alt.

There has been no definitive proof that the alt didn't originate at the Incident. As has been said, Sun remembering FLocke is no different than Libby remembering Hurley, Daniel remembering Charlotte, Kate remembering Jack, etc.

Actually Sun remembering Flocke would be different, as she would be remembering someone who wasn't on Oceanic 815. All the others were on the plane together. It's her reaction to recognizing FLocke that is the key.

Actually Sun remembering Flocke would be different, as she would be remembering someone who wasn't on Oceanic 815. All the others were on the plane together. It's her reaction to recognizing FLocke that is the key.
Neither Charlotte nor Daniel were on the plane. And Desmond has recognized several people, and he wasn't on the plane. Of course.

ETA: I somehow failed to finish a sentence there. It should say "Of course, he's a special case."

Neither Charlotte nor Daniel were on the plane. And Desmond has recognized several people, and he wasn't on the plane. Of course.

Agreed. Point well made. Let me rephrase my original statement. Sun was recognizing/remembering someone who was (as far as we have know up to this point) an original inhabitant of the island; whereas the others were remembering transplants to the island.

The others seems to be remembering people they had a strong connection with, which would beg the question what was the strong connection between Sun and F/Locke?

Agreed. Point well made. Let me rephrase my original statement. Sun was recognizing/remembering someone who was (as far as we have know up to this point) an original inhabitant of the island; whereas the others were remembering transplants to the island.

The others seems to be remembering people they had a strong connection with, which would beg the question what was the strong connection between Sun and F/Locke?
That is a difference, and interesting. I still think it falls well short of proof of anything.

Because her memories of Locke as the MIB are from events that transpired after the other Losties TTed to 1977 and set off Jughead. If you choose to believe that theory, that's when the split occurred. So it would be impossible to remember anything from the original timeline if it happened after the TT. There's your proof.

You are assuming that what is happenning to the people in the FST are just memories of past events on the island. Don't rule out the possibility that there is some sort of cross-pollination going on - a sharing of experiences bleeding across the time lines. For example, some people postulate that Desmond ran over Locke in the FST as revenge for being thrown down the well in the Island time line. I don't believe this but if it is correct then it means that people in the FST are experiencing more than just repressed memories.

In short, I don't think Sun's recognition of Flocke as MIB proves anything about the cause of the split.

My turn....

She was truly scared of Locke, right?

Up until tonight, in the original 2007 timeline, Sun wasn't THAT scared of Flocke. So if she is having access to the original timelime in a parallel way, she seems to know or have seen something really bad that Flocke hasn't done yet and that is why she is so scared of him.

It could be that these flashes are not chronological and they come and go from different periods of time or.....

It could be that, like may people are theorizing, the sideways is the epilogue of the show.


Sun was remembering something that Flocke hasn't DONE YET from OUR perspestive and the losties'.

That something will be materialized near the end of the show and scared ALL of them (and US).....

Its quite clear now the effects of Jughead were always present on the Island since the beginning. WHH remains true, the sideways was also always true. Jughead created the sideways but it also was something that always happened. How the two will eventually come together is another thing entirely.

A couple of things here.

Sun was angry with Flocke on the Island. She blamed him for her losing her English. She was afraid of Flocke, based on her reaction when he approached her to come with him. Her reaction to seeing John in the alt-verse could be fear and anger, but with no knowledge of why she is fearful of Locke.

I was very confused with Suns reaction when she came out of surgery. I would have been happier if she told Jin, No we are not going to be ok, I have seen it. It was more like she had no recollection of her vision of the Island timeline.

I am still a firm believer that the alt-verse was not caused by jughead. Jughead always exploded and what happend has always happend. There are just too many inconsistencies in the alt-verse that are too difficult to be explained by an event that happend on an Island in 1977.

I agree with Fierro,totally. She is not afraid of Flocke at all--yet.

This just occurred to me: is it possible she wasn't afraid of him but rather upset that he was hurt?

I agree with Fierro,totally. She is not afraid of Flocke at all--yet.

I believe that He is gonna kill Jin or both and that is why she was so creeped out by his looks....

I don't know how she recognized him anyway with all that stuff around his head. And I really don't know how Jack recognized him. Maybe ParaSun only had the sense of something bad about him and really could not explain how she knew that. Maybe she remembered him chasing her in the jungle or something and she had no other context for him outside that memory.

Sun was scared enough of Flocke to run from him on the island, so it's already been established that she's not his greatest fan.

Sun was scared enough of Flocke to run from him on the island, so it's already been established that she's not his greatest fan.
but she 'talked' to him during the parade....I insist whatever has happened til now is not enough to justify her alt reaction.

but she 'talked' to him during the parade....I insist whatever has happened til now is not enough to justify her alt reaction.

Even if she only got a window of memory? Such as his chasing her through the jungle?

Even if she only got a window of memory? Such as his chasing her through the jungle?

well, it could be. But I am liking the idea that the sideways is the epilogue that it is NOT gonna end well anyways...

well, it could be. But I am liking the idea that the sideways is the epilogue that it is NOT gonna end well anyways...

The problem that I have with the sideways being the epilogue is the pregnancies. Both Claire and Sun are pregnant in the ALT, but we know they both already had their babies in the Island Time Line (ITL). So unless the epilogue (that which happens after the end of the story) time traveled back to the beginning of the story...

Yeah, I don't really get the epilogue theory. Does it mean that everything gets reset? The date the plane landed in LA X is September 22, 2004, right? So, how does that come after everything that has already happened?

It seems to me because of certain "connections" that are made, characters in the sideways are remembering elements of their Island life, which has happened in the future in that timeline. That explains Sun's reaction to Locke. She has no idea who he is in the sideways, but her on-Island consciouness knows Locke, knows he's dead, knows that Flocke is impersonating him, and knows what Flocke is capable of.

There has been no definitive proof that the alt didn't originate at the Incident.

Nor has there been definitive proof that it did.
But the show has certainly gone out of its way to hint that it didn't (or if it did create the alt, the alt has its own history pre-incident).

Yeah, I don't really get the epilogue theory. Does it mean that everything gets reset? The date the plane landed in LA X is September 22, 2004, right? So, how does that come after everything that has already happened?

I'm with you Avius. If the plane landed in 2004 then it is not a sideways reality to the current island time but the past.

I also have never bought that whatever happened happened stuff either. ;)

Nor has there been definitive proof that it did.
But the show has certainly gone out of its way to hint that it didn't (or if it did create the alt, the alt has its own history pre-incident).
I agree there is no proof either way. I disagree that they have hinted that it didn't. There have been a lot of things left ambiguous. The narrative, however, has hinted at a split, primarily through Faraday, both original recipe and extra hat flavors.

i agree there is no proof either way. I disagree that they have hinted that it didn't. There have been a lot of things left ambiguous. The narrative, however, has hinted at a split, primarily through faraday, both original recipe and extra hat flavors.

this!

I agree there is no proof either way. I disagree that they have hinted that it didn't. There have been a lot of things left ambiguous. The narrative, however, has hinted at a split, primarily through Faraday, both original recipe and extra hat flavors.

I'm with you. If Jughead didn't cause the split then season 5 means nothing.

I'm with you. If Jughead didn't cause the split then season 5 means nothing.

Until the Desmond side flash, all of the side flashes meant nothing imo. Also, why would Juliette say it worked?

There is no proof of anything.

Darlton has stated that Faraday's plan was the right idea but wrong execution. If true, then what we know of as the sideways isn't exactly the ideal result.

It seems to me because of certain "connections" that are made, characters in the sideways are remembering elements of their Island life, which has happened in the future in that timeline. That explains Sun's reaction to Locke. She has no idea who he is in the sideways, but her on-Island consciouness knows Locke, knows he's dead, knows that Flocke is impersonating him, and knows what Flocke is capable of.

Just for fun, take off the last part of that statement... then you have Sun reacting to something that happened before the O6 returned to the island and set off Jughead. Locke is DEAD. I think that might freak me out a bit. Like this...

It seems to me because of certain "connections" that are made, characters in the sideways are remembering elements of their Island life, which has happened in the future in that timeline. That explains Sun's reaction to Locke. She has no idea who he is in the sideways, but her on-Island consciouness knows Locke, knows he's dead.

Darlton has stated that Faraday's plan was the right idea but wrong execution. If true, then what we know of as the sideways isn't exactly the ideal result.

Or it could be:

"right idea" = erasing the original timeline

An abnormality that should never have happened, where the balance between good & evil, ying & yang, or whatever has been destroyed, and the Losties' free will was taken away by demi-gods subtly (and not so subtly) pushing them toward their desired outcoume.

"wrong execution" = detonating the bomb over the EM pocket

It clearly didn't destroy the original timeline, so, it must be done through some other means. Perhaps that's what "the candidate" is supposed to do.

The others seems to be remembering people they had a strong connection with, which would beg the question what was the strong connection between Sun and F/Locke?Yeah, interesting...but maybe it's just visions of people they're with at the time, rather than visions of people they were close to. And maybe those flashes are stronger the stronger the connection between the people is. For instance, we were actually shown those flashes with the loving couples. With Sun, we just saw her reaction to seeing Locke. We didn't see that she had specific visions of him.

You are assuming that what is happenning to the people in the FST are just memories of past events on the island. Don't rule out the possibility that there is some sort of cross-pollination going on - a sharing of experiences bleeding across the time lines.Yeah, that. I was thinking of calling it "bleed through," but "cross-pollination" is good too. The topic of this thread assumes that they're having flashes of memory, but there's no evidence of that, as far as I can see. They are certainly having visions of the other timeline, though. Whether those visions are memories or some other connection is unclear. Thus, that can't be used as a case for the origin of the sideways timeline.

I'm with you. For example, if the Jughead didn't cause the split then season 5 means nothing.Not so. S5 meant plenty, character-wise. It meant that Jack feels a strong sense of guilt for executing the plan that got Juliet killed. In fact, his view that the Jughead did nothing reinforces that sense of guilt and loss. And Sawyer's feeling that Jack killed Juliet is fueling his anger. Season 5 wasn't just about the sci-fi aspect of the Jughead causing the sideways timeline; without the events leading up to the Jughead incident, there's a lot of story that wouldn't be happening.

Or it could be:

"right idea" = erasing the original timeline

An abnormality that should never have happened, where the balance between good & evil, ying & yang, or whatever has been destroyed, and the Losties' free will was taken away by demi-gods subtly (and not so subtly) pushing them toward their desired outcoume.

"wrong execution" = detonating the bomb over the EM pocket

It clearly didn't destroy the original timeline, so, it must be done through some other means. Perhaps that's what "the candidate" is supposed to do.

I believe that the 'right' idea is the losties DYING in a plane crash. Not surviving on an Island, not landing safely in LA.

Not so. S5 meant plenty, character-wise. It meant that Jack feels a strong sense of guilt for executing the plan that got Juliet killed. In fact, his view that the Jughead did nothing reinforces that sense of guilt and loss. And Sawyer's feeling that Jack killed Juliet is fueling his anger. Season 5 wasn't just about the sci-fi aspect of the jughead causing the sideways timeline; without season 5, there's a lot of story that wouldn't be happening.



They needed a nuclear bomb for Jack to feel guilty about something? That is his perpetual state of being. All of that skipping, and time-traveling and nuclear bombing for what? For a new parallel that some are saying didn't even happen because of the bomb? I'm all for another event, but what event? If not Jughead then what spawned the parallel reality?

I believe that the 'right' idea is the losties DYING in a plane crash. Not surviving on an Island, not landing safely in LA.

Ok, but the quote refers to something Damon said when he was discussing the S5 finale: Faraday had the right idea, but the wrong execution. So, within that context, how can the right idea be that all of them die in a plane crash?

I believe that the 'right' idea is the losties DYING in a plane crash. Not surviving on an Island, not landing safely in LA.

I expect the ending of Lost to be bittersweet, but not *that* bittersweet. To me, Jack's execution of Faraday's plan didn't completely close the loop. What we see as the sideways is a dreamscape that still gives the MIB the opening he needs to disrupt cosmic balance. In other words, I don't think we have seen the "ideal" universe yet. The sideways is the second draft.

It seems to me because of certain "connections" that are made, characters in the sideways are remembering elements of their Island life, which has happened in the future in that timeline. That explains Sun's reaction to Locke. She has no idea who he is in the sideways, but her on-Island consciouness knows Locke, knows he's dead, knows that Flocke is impersonating him, and knows what Flocke is capable of.

This was my thought, rr. I thought it was the beginning of a convergence between Island time and SF time. Just like she couldn't speak English in either time until she was with her constant, Jin. All of which has nothing to do with the OP theory but that's been my thinking when I see this scene.

This was my thought, rr. I thought it was the beginning of a convergence between Island time and SF time. Just like she couldn't speak English in either time until she was with her constant, Jin. All of which has nothing to do with the OP theory but that's been my thinking when I see this scene.

The question I have is whether this connection goes both ways. Will events in the sideways impact events on the Island?

The question I have is whether this connection goes both ways. Will events in the sideways impact events on the Island?

I think it must. I think this is why Smoke is so threatened by Desmond and wants him dead.

Even if she only got a window of memory? Such as his chasing her through the jungle?

This is where I was coming from.

We've seen several instances of characters in the sideways becoming aware of acquaintances in the original timeline. Why would it be that, when Sun recognizes Locke, that becomes proof of anything new?.

/agree

I am curious as to her reaction when she recognizes him...there seems to be an awareness of current events that say Hurley/Libby didn't have...

-ik

The question I have is whether this connection goes both ways. Will events in the sideways impact events on the Island?
I think it must. I think this is why Smoke is so threatened by Desmond and wants him dead.
I didn't think of that but it makes a lot sense. I really felt the beginning of a convergence in last night's episode and the bleed throughs probably go both ways. As far as Desmond goes, I think that's exactly why Flocke fears him - he can see both timelines and can see how to defeat Flocke.

I'll explain it by using Hurley as an example. This is the original timeline from his POV:

1. Crashes on the island.
2. Falls for Libby.
3. Leaves island.
4. Goes back to island, but TTs to 1977.
5. Helps detonate Jughead.

Now, according to the theory, this is where the split takes place. Which gives us the FS timeline:

6. Plane lands in LA.
7. Meets Libby.
8. Kisses Libby and remembers her from original timeline.

The other part of the split is a continuation of the original timeline:

6. TTs back to 2007.
7. Meets Ghost Jacob.
8. Meets MIB.

And that's when Sun meets the MIB as well. But how can she remember Locke as the MIB if it happened after the split?

They needed a nuclear bomb for Jack to feel guilty about something? That is his perpetual state of being. All of that skipping, and time-traveling and nuclear bombing for what? For a new parallel that some are saying didn't even happen because of the bomb? I'm all for another event, but what event? If not Jughead then what spawned the parallel reality?Well, I think perhaps we're still waiting to find out. Personally, to me it doesn't make sense that the Jughead even detonated. But as for needing a nuclear bomb for Jack to feel guilty, no, they didn't need that. But it was certainly one in a long line of things for him to feel guilty about. In fact, the whole Jughead plan was his big tipping point as a character. That big fail dislodged him as leader in his own mind. It allowed him to let go. Even if that's the real significance of S5, that's pretty good, right there.

The question I have is whether this connection goes both ways. Will events in the sideways impact events on the Island?I dunno (yet). Haven't seen any evidence of that.

I'll explain it by using Hurley as an example. This is the original timeline from his POV:

1. Crashes on the island.
2. Falls for Libby.
3. Leaves island.
4. Goes back to island, but TTs to 1977.
5. Helps detonate Jughead.

Now, according to the theory, this is where the split takes place. Which gives us the FS timeline:

6. Plane lands in LA.
7. Meets Libby.
8. Kisses Libby and remembers her from original timeline.

The other part of the split is a continuation of the original timeline:

6. TTs back to 2007.
7. Meets Ghost Jacob.
8. Meets MIB.

And that's when Sun meets the MIB as well. But how can she remember Locke as the MIB if it happened after the split?She can if this theory is not correct. And, in fact, it seems she did. So apparently, this theory is not correct.

She can if this theory is not correct. And, in fact, it seems she did. So apparently, this theory is not correct.

You are correct but there are those that will continue to miss it every time they reveal something because it does not fit the theory.

Ok, but the quote refers to something Damon said when he was discussing the S5 finale: Faraday had the right idea, but the wrong execution. So, within that context, how can the right idea be that all of them die in a plane crash?

idea might have not been the right word. I believe the right 'universe' is the one in which they die. They might not be supposed to be alive in any universe...

Sun recognized Locke as the MIB in the FS. Think about it....If Jughead caused the FS, then all present day memories would need to be of events that took place before the TT to 1977.
I think the word "memories" is the problem here. These are not memories per se. They are "feelings." Des saw a few flashes, Charlie saw a vision of a blonde, Dan "felt it" too. The only one who seems to actually remember anything that make sense is Libby.

My gut is that had anyone asked Sun why she was so upset at seeing Locke, she wouldn't know know why. It's just a feeling. The same type of bleed-through that seems to be happening to everyone be it via seeing their own reflection, or writing out some foreign equation.

I also think it's a mistake to get thrown that ALT characters in 2004 are becoming cognizant of an their existence in another world's 2007. Could be 1812 or 3002 as well.

I understand the question and it's totally valid if we we're talking about true, single timeline memories. These are more like bleed-throughs from another universe...time and space aside.

It also may be helpful to remember there is a big "time" issue on the the Island. Taking a look into time dialation may be helpful.

She can if this theory is not correct. And, in fact, it seems she did. So apparently, this theory is not correct.

You mean the theory that Jughead caused the FS?

One way or another, I believe that ALT 2004 is playing out alongside ORIG 2007...just as we are seeing it on screen.

I think the word "memories" is the problem here.

Yes, this has been mentioned before. To me, that's just a matter of semantics. I think we all understand what's happening. We can label them memories, feelings, visions or caramels...it's completely arbitrary.
100%
One way or another, I believe that ALT 2004 is playing out alongside ORIG 2007...just as we are seeing it on screen.

But the FS are not being presented in chronological order. I understand there are similarities between the two timelines as we watch each episode. But that's part of the storytelling device.

How is this any different than the flashbacks and flash-forwards? In previous seasons, something would happen to Jack on the island, and this would be juxtaposed with something that happened in his past. That doesn't mean they were happening at the same time.

Yes, Sun did recognize Locke in the FS as Flocke but I don't know how this is proof of Jughead not causing the FS. Although, I've never been totally convinced that Jughead did cause the FS but rather that the FS had always existed. The Incident may be responsible for the start of the two worlds having subconcious awareness of each other.

But the FS are not being presented in chronological order. .......How is this any different than the flashbacks and flash-forwards? In previous seasons, something would happen to Jack on the island, and this would be juxtaposed with something that happened in his past. That doesn't mean they were happening at the same time.
I don't understand what you're saying/asking. How is the FS not being presented in chronological order? Are you asking how the cuts back and forth between the ALT and ORIG are different than the cuts back and forth between present time and FB and FFs?

I'll explain it by using Hurley as an example. This is the original timeline from his POV:

1. Crashes on the island.
2. Falls for Libby.
3. Leaves island.
4. Goes back to island, but TTs to 1977.
5. Helps detonate Jughead.

Now, according to the theory, this is where the split takes place. Which gives us the FS timeline:

6. Plane lands in LA.
7. Meets Libby.
8. Kisses Libby and remembers her from original timeline.

The other part of the split is a continuation of the original timeline:

6. TTs back to 2007.
7. Meets Ghost Jacob.
8. Meets MIB.

And that's when Sun meets the MIB as well. But how can she remember Locke as the MIB if it happened after the split?

I'm still not catching on. The way I see it, the two realities are like films that are made. They're done. They're in the can. They already have a beginning, middle and an end (or infinity?). A consciousness can then jump from one film to the other film at any point and into any frame. This is why Desmond could see Charlie die so many different ways. Because Desmond jumped from film to film to film, but always to the frame where Charlie died.

The question I have is whether this connection goes both ways. Will events in the sideways impact events on the Island?

I think they already have. Juliet was on the island when she got a view of the sideways. As Miles told us, her last words were "it worked", so, the bleed-throughs can happen both ways, but you apparently need to be in the brink of death or in the presence of your loved one to experience them.

I think those parting words from Juliet will come into play in the island timeline soon.

I'm still not catching on. The way I see it, the two realities are like films that are made. They're done. They're in the can. They already have a beginning, middle and an end (or infinity?). A consciousness can then jump from one film to the other film at any point and into any frame. This is why Desmond could see Charlie die so many different ways. Because Desmond jumped from film to film to film, but always to the frame where Charlie died.

Yes, physisc theories about this stuff always make a point of noting where the observer is when the observation is made.

It's like two parallel strings with different colors for every year with a person in any point of the string catching a glimpse of another year in another string.

STRING A: |---2004---|---2005---|---2006---|---2007---|
STRING B: |---2004---|---2005---|---2006---|---2007---|

Imagine that in both strings the 2004 piece is yellow, 2005 is blue, 2006 is green, and 2007 is red. String A is the island's timeline (the one we've been watching since the show started). String B is the sideways timeline.

Yellow SunB in 2004 is able to see Red SunA in 2007 and her interactions with Smocke.

Time-space is a continuum, loosely meaning that if you were outside the time-space line, you would see it all happening at once. Past, present and future exist at the same time, but we don't experience it at the same time because we are inside the time-space continuum.

Theoretically, someone outside the continuum could see Jack operating the 15 year old girl's back and fixing Ben dural's sack at the same time, even if Jack experiences both events at different times.

I don't understand what you're saying/asking. How is the FS not being presented in chronological order? Are you asking how the cuts back and forth between the ALT and ORIG are different than the cuts back and forth between present time and FB and FFs?

They're no different than the FBs and FFs, that's my point.

You think the FS are in chronological order? Obviously they're not. We've jumped around from the moment the plane touched down to several hours later to several days later, then back a few days, then all the way back to the plane landing, and so on. There's no way these things are happening simultaneously with what's happening on the island.
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I'm still not catching on. The way I see it, the two realities are like films that are made. They're done. They're in the can. They already have a beginning, middle and an end (or infinity?). A consciousness can then jump from one film to the other film at any point and into any frame. This is why Desmond could see Charlie die so many different ways. Because Desmond jumped from film to film to film, but always to the frame where Charlie died.

Generally speaking, people who believe that Jughead caused the FS do not believe that WHH. So your analogy, while it makes sense, doesn't really apply here.

What might work is if you look at it like a video tape:

1. We play the tape all the way to the end: 2007.
2. We rewind to 1977.
3. We record over everything after 1977.

And because we recorded over the original version, we might see a few of the old frames or hear some of the old bits of audio from time to time. Does that work?

Now in my view, everything from 2007 on is part of a second tape. It's kind of like what Eloise said about not knowing what would happen next. I think there's a definite point where the tape ends and you have to put in a new tape. You could even call it the sequel to the first film.

But how could someone in the first film know what happened in the sequel when it hasn't even been produced yet?
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Yes, physisc theories about this stuff always make a point of noting where theobserver is, when the observation is made.

It's like two parallel strings with different colors for every year with a person in any point of the string catching a glimpse of another year in another string.

STRING A: |---2004---|---2005---|---2006---|---2007---|
STRING B: |---2004---|---2005---|---2006---|---2007---|

Imagine that in both strings the 2004 piece is yellow, 2005 is blue, 2006 is green, and 2007 is red. String A is the island's timeline (the one we've been watching since the show started). String B is the sideways timeline.

Yellow SunB in 2004 is able to see Red SunA in 2007 and her interactions with Smocke.

Time-space is a continuum, loosely meaning that if you were outside the time-space line, you would see it all happening at once. Past, present and future exist at the same time, but we don't experience it at the same time because we are inside the time-space continuum.

Theoretically, someone outside the continuum could see Jack operating the 15 year old girl's back and fixing Ben dural's sack at the same time, even if Jack experiences both events at different times.

I'm with you. The problem, as I posted above, is that many of the people pushing the "Jughead caused the FS" theory are adamantly opposed to the idea of WHH, which is to say they don't buy into the time-space continuum theory either. So time can be changed. Strings can be cut and attached to other strings.

Now I have seen some back-peddling the last several weeks, where people who once believed that Jughead caused the FS and reset the events in the original timeline are now saying that the FS always happened and there were always two timelines. But if you go back and look at the threads at the end of last season and the beginning of this one, the popular opinion was that the bomb went off and changed everything (as Daniel predicted it would).

Which brings me back to why I started this thread in the first place. If you're going to argue that time can be changed, then there must be start points and end points to when these changes can happen. Sun recognizing Locke is after an end point.

Generally speaking, people who believe that Jughead caused the FS do not believe that WHH. So your analogy, while it makes sense, doesn't really apply here.

Not true. I believe Jughead split the time-space continuum into two parallel universes. One where the plane crashed and one where it didn't (among other differences). I believe both these universes exist in parallel and have done so, since 1977. I also believe that the principle of WHH applies to both universes. One can't change the fact that the Swan was built in the original timeline, and one can't change the fact that Jack has a son named David in the parallel universe introduced this season.

But how could someone in the first film know what happened in the sequel when it hasn't even been produced yet?

Because past, present and future exist at the same time. See my post above for further clarification as to how that works, or pick up Stephen Hawking's "A Brief History of Time", it's quite an entertaining read.

Generally speaking, people who believe that Jughead caused the FS do not believe that WHH. So your analogy, while it makes sense, doesn't really apply here.
......The problem, as I posted above, is that many of the people pushing the "Jughead caused the FS" theory are adamantly opposed to the idea of WHH, which is to say they don't buy into the time-space continuum theory either. So time can be changed. Strings can be cut and attached to other strings.......Which brings me back to why I started this thread in the first place. If you're going to argue that time can be changed, then there must be start points and end points to when these changes can happen. Sun recognizing Locke is after an end point.
I for one, believe that J.H+the Incident caused the branching off of the FS and the ORIG. I also believe that WHH. One is not a negation of the other.

WHH. The past cannot be changed. Sayid could not kill Ben. Des could not continue to save Charlie forever. The Orig Losties always had to crash and TT back to 54, and 74-77, as TT from the ORIG world, because they already had.

A parallel universes do not negate WHH. There is a branching off of worlds, each one has it's own self-consistent history (as well as a shared one pre-split).

Even if you do not believe that JH+the Incident caused the split, the situation is the same. There are two parallel worlds at least from the point where S6 began...LAX and 2007 Island. As CL explained the bleed through between the two worlds can come from any point along the timelines of either world....A 2004 ALT character can "feel" what happened in the ORIG world in 2007, 2005, 1998, 1982 whenever.

"Why" they are showing ALT2004 alongside ORIG2007 is IMO no accident. But I guess that's for a different thread.

They're no different than the FBs and FFs, that's my point.

You think the FS are in chronological order? Obviously they're not. We've jumped around from the moment the plane touched down to several hours later to several days later, then back a few days, then all the way back to the plane landing, and so on. There's no way these things are happening simultaneously with what's happening on the island.
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Generally speaking, people who believe that Jughead caused the FS do not believe that WHH. So your analogy, while it makes sense, doesn't really apply here.

What might work is if you look at it like a video tape:

1. We play the tape all the way to the end: 2007.
2. We rewind to 1977.
3. We record over everything after 1977.

And because we recorded over the original version, we might see a few of the old frames or hear some of the old bits of audio from time to time. Does that work?

Now in my view, everything from 2007 on is part of a second tape. It's kind of like what Eloise said about not knowing what would happen next. I think there's a definite point where the tape ends and you have to put in a new tape. You could even call it the sequel to the first film.

But how could someone in the first film know what happened in the sequel when it hasn't even been produced yet?
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I'm with you. The problem, as I posted above, is that many of the people pushing the "Jughead caused the FS" theory are adamantly opposed to the idea of WHH, which is to say they don't buy into the time-space continuum theory either. So time can be changed. Strings can be cut and attached to other strings.

Now I have seen some back-peddling the last several weeks, where people who once believed that Jughead caused the FS and reset the events in the original timeline are now saying that the FS always happened and there were always two timelines. But if you go back and look at the threads at the end of last season and the beginning of this one, the popular opinion was that the bomb went off and changed everything (as Daniel predicted it would).

Which brings me back to why I started this thread in the first place. If you're going to argue that time can be changed, then there must be start points and end points to when these changes can happen. Sun recognizing Locke is after an end point.

I've been spending the better part of the season trying to reconcile Hawking's version of spacetime with the FS and Jughead. On one hand, I absolutely believe that whatever happened, happened. Season five spent too much on that very rule and Darlton have said repeatedly that they would never write a show that was set in a world of paradox. Moreover, it seems that Richard's response of watching "them all die" validates WHH (presuming that he was talking about the events of Jughead). So it is theoretically likely that these two timelines have always existed in our giant map of spacetime (if we discount multiverse theory). Everything that has happened and has already happened, which includes our Losties going back to 77, Sayid shooting Ben, Juliet setting off Jughead, a new branch of the river of spacetime is created, etc. etc.

Another way to look at is is to accept that every one of our characters is a variable. What if Jacob, MIB and the island don't exist in spacetime? It's constantly moving and it is the one special property in the universe where the rules don't apply? Let us also assume that Jacob and MIB, like the island, are entities which lie outside of our universal construct. What if Jacob's touch doesn't give you eternal life, but "unlocks" you from the prism of spacetime? Remember, "only fools are enslaved in time and space". So the reason why Richard doesn't age is because he no longer really exists in the universe. What if Jacob did this to all our characters? Everyone on flight 815? Or at least all the candidates? Of course, Jacob saw Sawyer and Kate at a young age, which would kill the ageless theory, but let us assume that he gave them something else that would unlock them from spacetime.

So once these candidates are unlocked from spacetime, they become variables with real free will. Not the way we see free will because, theoretically, everything that we have already decided for ourselves has already been done. But what if the candidates can do things that were never part of the plan? Like say..detonating a nuclear bomb? Of course, things will inevitably course correct, much like how our candidates are all meeting up again.

To be honest, I wrote this about an hour ago and have recently come back to it. I reread it and LOST (hah) track. I'll leave it as is. I'm so tired.

You mean the theory that Jughead caused the FS?NO! Nonononono! :wallbash: I mean your theory that the flashes of awareness that the characters are having are memories of events in the other timeline. Sun saw Locke. She was scared. Apparently, she recognized him as Smocke. Thus, she wasn't having a memory. So it the basic assumption of this thread doesn't follow through, logically.

I don't know whether or not the Jughead caused the sideways timeline. But the scene between Sun and Locke doesn't constitute proof of anything, other than perhaps that the characters are experiencing "bleed through" from the other timeline, not memories of their experiences there.

My Theory is that Love (light) and Pain (dark) both allow the barrier of memories to leak

NO! Nonononono! :wallbash: I mean your theory that the flashes of awareness that the characters are having are memories of events in the other timeline. Sun saw Locke. She was scared. Apparently, she recognized him as Smocke. Thus, she wasn't having a memory. So it the basic assumption of this thread doesn't follow through, logically.

I don't know whether or not the Jughead caused the sideways timeline. But the scene between Sun and Locke doesn't constitute proof of anything, other than perhaps that the characters are experiencing "bleed through" from the other timeline, not memories of their experiences there.

You're hung up on semantics. Memories, visions, bleed-through, caramels...it doesn't matter what we call them. We know what they represent.

You're hung up on semantics. Memories, visions, bleed-through, caramels...it doesn't matter what we call them. We know what they represent.

Do we? Your post implies that all viewers (and, by extension, theorisers) agree on this, when we clearly don't. :)

Do we? Your post implies that all viewers (and, by extension, theorisers) agree on this, when we clearly don't. :)

Touche. But I don't think there's any disagreement on what they are. We all agree that she's "seeing" something from the other timeline, correct?

Touche. But I don't think there's any disagreement on what they are. We all agree that she's "seeing" something from the other timeline, correct?

Perhaps, but however I respond it will, as you said above, in your eyes be semantics, whereas I wouldn't see it like that. I'm interested in specifics and not generalisations. Don't get me wrong though, I'm enjoying the discussions here. :)

In the context of this thread, I am considering a 'memory ' as a true/correct recollection of something learned or experienced, that is understood by the individual having it....just like you or I would.

-Libby seems to have true memories. She knows there was an Island, a plane crash, a Hurley etc.
-Des is having his "flashes" which are kind of like photos of the past, yet he knows they weren't experienced by him in this ALT lifetime.

The other Island character's have "feelings." Charlie and Dan have expressed them. Others just seem to have them when seeing their own reflections. Sun certainly had one upon seeing ALT Locke.

I think what they are feeling is really profound. A feeling that they belong somewhere else. A feeling that the truth does not lie in the world in which they are living. To call these feelings "memories" IMO takes away from their impact.

Take a re-look at the dialogue:


CHARLIE: That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about spectacular, consciousness-altering love. Do you know what that looks like?
CHARLIE: ...The entire bag of heroin is stuck in my throat. It's, uh, it's over. Everything starts to go dark, I'm slipping into the abyss, and then I see...her.
DESMOND: Her?
CHARLIE: A woman. Blonde, rapturously beautiful, and I know her. We're together. It's like we've always been, and always will be. This feeling, this love, and just as I'm about to be engulfed by...(snaps fingers) I open my eyes, and this sodding idiot is standing there asking me if I'm okay. But I saw it, just for a moment, I saw what it looked like.
CHARLIE:.... But I've seen something real, I've seen the truth.

CHARLIE: You saw something, didn’t you? In the water. What was it?
CHARLIE: Ah. You felt it, didn't you?
DESMOND: I didn't feel anything.
CHARLIE:This doesn't matter. None of this matters. All that matters is that we felt it.

DANIEL: . And, as soon as I saw her, right, right in that moment, it was like, it was like I already loved her. And that's when things got weird.
DANIEL: Just listen, what if, this, all this, what if this wasn't suppose to be our life? What if we had some other life and for some reason, we changed things? I don't want to set off a nuclear bomb, Mr. Hume. I think I already did.
DANIEL: Why did you ask my mother about a woman named Penny? It happened to you, too, didn't it? You felt it.
DESMOND: I don't know...I don't know what I felt.
DANIEL: Yes, you do. You felt love.
DESMOND: That's impossible, because I don’t know anything about this woman, I don't know...I don't know where she is. I don't even know if she exists. She's...she's an idea.

IDK if all or any of the characters will be able to put the pieces together to create a clear picture of what their ORIG looked like, but it does seem that these "feelings" are strong enough to convince them all that they don't belong living the ALT lives they are leading. Once convinced, who knows what they will or can do to "make things right" for themselves again????