View Full Version : 5x05 - Flesh and Stone
05-01-2010, 02:34 PM
Let me start by saying it was a good episode. If it was a standard single episode or had a previous part similar in standard to it, it would have been a fantastic arc. However I was left disappointed. They could have racked up the tension a bit more but even then...
There was some scripting which could have been tightened up (putting magnets on the doors at the start, for instance) but these were minor things... and I didn't really get why the Angels stopped for Amy when they were running...
I think my two main problems with this episode were that the Angels were scary beings in the 2 episodes they were in preceding it and they should have been scary here but by putting a bigger threat in there it removes that element and the way it was written it dismissed them in a way. They could have sorted that by making the light expand or add an added element to make it scarier than a "light", make it so the audience can see a real threat there. My second problem is related in that they showed the angels move or laugh, which upset me because the whole scariness of them was the unseen.
However the good points, this episode was still a lot better than the first 3. There was still a real threat there. Matt Smith and Amy Pond were superb this episode. Despite the problems mentioned above, the Angels were scary up until that point and the countdown gave me chills. I think the sound guys need an award of some sort! Even after the light got there, it still had a bit of scariness, the angel coming from behind the army guy. It also set up well for later in the series. River Song was also good, I did get a bit tired of "Great idea, Doctor" but the relationship she and the doctor has is a very interesting one, I bet we get her again in the finale? Theory - Possibly killing Rory? I know signs point to the doctor himself but I think differently and would free up Amy more I was a bit upset by Amy coming onto the doctor at the end and thought it was slightly out of character but Im putting it in the good points because the doctor downright rejected her. So definetly not a Rose character! Although I am seeing shades of all Rose, Martha and Donna in there.
Anyway good episode but the promo kinda shocked me, the adversary next week are moving human "shaped" beings?
05-01-2010, 11:00 PM
There was some scripting which could have been tightened up (putting magnets on the doors at the start, for instance) but these were minor things... and I didn't really get why the Angels stopped for Amy when they were running...Yes, well, one thing I notice about DW is that a lot of things are logically explained, but perhaps a bit too conveniently explained, you know? Like the bit about the angels' instincts kicking in as long as Amy walked as though she could see. It was about the only thing I didn't like about the ep -- about the last two eps, in fact. There was air about it of "let's make sure Amy is surrounded by big scary angels at some point in the ep (even though we have to explain somehow why they don't just kill her, since she has her eyes closed).
But I think it did occur to me to wonder why they stopped for her, if they were running from the light. I assumed at some point it would be explained that the angels wouldn't kill Amy because she was, effectively, one of them. They would be killing the angel image in her mind. But I figured she was in danger from the angels, even when she was running, basically as a matter of convenience. They wouldn't have had to go out of their way to kill her, so they were willing to do so.
I think my two main problems with this episode were that the Angels were scary beings in the 2 episodes they were in preceding it and they should have been scary here but by putting a bigger threat in there it removes that element and the way it was written it dismissed them in a way. They could have sorted that by making the light expand or add an added element to make it scarier than a "light", make it so the audience can see a real threat there.But in my mind, that was the point. The angels are, perhaps, the scariest DW baddies there are. So for there to be something seemingly simple -- a light -- that even scares them! Now that's gotta be something nasty!
My second problem is related in that they showed the angels move or laugh, which upset me because the whole scariness of them was the unseen.I'm with you there, in a way. I had no problem with the laugh, or with the "making Amy count down for fun" bits. The laugh was acknowledged as not really a laugh, but something unexplainable, but similar to a laugh. That was okay by me. The count down? Stupefyingly brilliant. She was at about 6 or 5 before I realized that's what she was doing. I kept expecting "8...15...16...23..." :71: And though I have to say I was on the edge of my seat when the angels started moving, I always liked the fact that the audience was in the same boat as the characters -- we never saw them move, and as long as we were looking at them, they couldn't move. And if we weren't looking, they moved faster than we could see, anyway. So it removed a level of identification with the story and characters to actually see them move.
I think the sound guys need an award of some sort!Yeah! But what's with the Doctor's finger making sound effects? Happened twice in this ep.... :rolleyes:
Theory - Possibly killing Rory? I know signs point to the doctor himself but I think differently and would free up Amy moreChaz! That's not a spoiler, it's speculation! Spoilerfont abuse! I'm tellin'!
Besides, I think it was a very obvious implication that we're supposed to believe River has killed the Doctor. But then, there's been talk of the Doctor's death before, and they always find a way around it. He even said this time that "Time can be rewritten."
BTW, one logical problem with River killing the Doctor: Bishop Octavian really didn't seem to know much at all about the Doctor, but he showed a real and deep appreciation for whoever it was she killed.
I was a bit upset by Amy coming onto the doctor at the end and thought it was slightly out of character but Im putting it in the good points because the doctor downright rejected her.I think -- I hope! -- that the fact that Amy's actions at the end were out of character was the whole point of those actions. There's something special about -- wrong with -- strange and inconsistent about Amy, and the crack has something to do with it. Still, as that sort of scene goes, it was a great scene. Matt Smith did a great job of being utterly dense while she was coming on to him! :lol2:
BTW, Chaz, that last line of your post -- that IS a spoiler. I'm considering not watching the previews anymore, since I think they show too much, so I would have been pretty PO'd if I had skipped the preview and then read that.
-- ETA -- Thanx for editing in spoiler tags on that, Chaz!
Now, then, some great lines!....
The Doctor: "I dunno, I'm guessing -- we're being attacked by statues in a crashed ship. There isn't a manual for this!"
Bishop Octavian: "You trust this man?"
River Song: "I absolutely trust him."
Bishop Octavian: "He's not some kind of madman, then?"
River Song: "I absolutely trust him."
The Doctor: "A forest in a bottle in a bottle on a spaceship in a maze. Have I impressed you yet, Amy Pond?" (I am quite impressed with MS's rapid-fire delivery! I see this as his trademark)
The Doctor: "I look forward to it."
River Song: "I remember it well." (I do so love the intricacies of time travel, especially when they're handled by good writers who can romanticize them!)
The Doctor: "Amy, I am 907 years old. Do you understand what that means?"
Amy: "That it's been a while?"
Here's a thought -- why did Amy have to remember what the Doctor said to her when she was seven? Because the angel within her mind wouldn't be able to. It would give her something to focus on that was purely her. The thing I love about British TV and movies is that it's okay for things to go unexplained. If DW were an American show, the audience would demand that even a little plot point like that be thoroughly explained. But since this is British, it's okay for them to expect us to bring a thing or two to the table. I have to say sometimes I really wish LOST were a BBC show. I think perhaps people wouldn't be begging for answers so much, or at least they wouldn't be so disappointed when they don't get every single answer to every single detail.
And just a tag...Bishop Octavian's death scene was great!
BTW, I think I'm going to stop keeping track of the crack. I was thinking at first that it was going to make subtle appearances...like on the screen in the TARDIS at the end of the first ep of the season. But it seems it's going to be much more obvious going forward. Clearly, it was all over this ep, and I would have had to add a whole bunch of images to the file I'm keeping.
05-02-2010, 12:08 AM
Ah apologies, wasn't thinking.
What is the spoiler policy on flicksnshows and the others, I assumed the spoiler restrictions were only for the lage?
05-02-2010, 08:56 AM
Spoiler rules, to my knowledge, are the same as the old rules on the 'Lage. Discussion of the previews is to be limited to spoiler threads, or spoilerfonted if it's indispensable to the discussion outside of there.
I was thinking about that last scene...I'm not sure why we think that was out of character for Amy. She's a strong, passionate woman. She kisses people for a living. And...
...according to the Confidential, we weren't supposed to see her actions as out of character. Here, there's this attractive guy who just saved her life, and she's got him in her room. Why not? Are we engaging in stereotypes of how a "nice girl" should behave on TV (personally, I appreciate it when a woman is forthright about what she wants). Or perhaps it's that we just haven't seen her express this side of herself much before.
05-02-2010, 10:09 AM
@ Porochaz: Basically what Edmuse said. The rules are basically the same for all four boards.
We've made one special rule for the Lost finale and the Fuselage because that's going to get a bit tense and well... we all know how some jerks just love to spoil big events for the fans.
The exception for the Doctor Who forum is that discussion about the episodes is allowed as soon as the episode has aired in its entirety in the UK (not the US).because it's a UK based TV show.
05-16-2010, 02:07 AM
I'm so glad we got some idea about not only the crack is but what Bro Octavian was referring to last episode when he threatened to tell the Dr about what River was. This episode scared the bejeebers outta me right up until River teleported Amy onto the ship. I agee, Ed, about MS's lightning quick delivery of lines and I loved Amy saying "It's been a while?"
I don't think it's necessarily out of character for her to act as she did. Like has been said above, she's just been saved by the Dr but I think another element comes into play - she's getting married in the morning. Classic cold feet as well as cliched "one last fling". What I still don't get (and I don't think any of us do right now) is what the "rip in time" has to do with Amy's wedding day. As has been said in other threads, this isn't the first time the Dr's appearance has headed up a future companion's wedding. Is there something special about Amy and her now being a time traveler that caused some kind of time explosion??
For those who are more versed in Dr Who lore and mythology, do we know what Pandorica is?? Is this the first time it's been mentioned?? I absolutely love Dr. River Song and I love how the Dr is around her. It's different than the way he acts around anyone else. I'm hoping that we get to see her again this season but I'll be that's asking too much. I also appreciate the way she treats Amy. She doesn't treat her as a rival but as someone of importance. I'm just loving Amy more and more every week and this new Dr is growing on me. He's a lot more intense and less patient than the DT Dr. It really helps separate them in my mind but he's still enough like DT Dr that it's not jarring.
05-16-2010, 11:27 AM
Where did you hear Pandorica? Also I remember a lot of Pandora, but not much of Pandorica...
05-16-2010, 11:43 AM
Doctor: “Octavian said you killed a man.”
River: “Yes I did.”
Doctor: “A good man.”
River: “A very good man…the best man i’ve ever known.”
River: “It’s a long story Doctor. Can’t be told. Has to be lived. No sneak previews, well, except for this one…You’ll see me again quite soon, when the Pandorica opens.”
Doctor: “Pandorica hah. That’s a fairy tale.”
River: “Aren’t we all? I’ll see you there”
Doctor: “I look forward to it”
River: “I remember it well.”
I had to google it because I remembered the word but not the context.
Pandorica was also mentioned by Prisoner Zero:
The universe is cracked, the Pandorica will open and silence will fall
The cracks, Pandorica and silence are all connected...
05-16-2010, 03:53 PM
Thanks, Majandra. It really does all seem to tie in, doesn't it?? I don't think I've seen "Prisoner Zero" but I'll go online and get a synopsis as it seems that it will be important some time in the future.
05-16-2010, 04:01 PM
Prisoner Zero was the Baddie in the first eppy of the new season. The Eleventh Hour.
05-17-2010, 10:08 AM
:doh: I don't know how I forgot that!! Thanks for not kickin' me off the thread for being stupid. :redface:
06-20-2010, 12:43 PM
Okay, I was going to mention this in my infamous "SM is genius" post but I think it might be better here. This isn't something I came up by myself but some theory I stumbled upon while googling for prior mentions of the Pandorica. Of course now I can't find that website again but I can summarize it for you.
Or I could just quote tardis.wikia (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Flesh_and_Stone) ;) (yes, I'm lazy)
Please remember that scene, when the Doctor, River and Amy are inside the Byzantium (the crashed ship) and Amy discovers a crack that is similar to the one in her bedroom:
The Doctor examines it, saying "That's extremely very not good", before noticing he is surrounded by Weeping Angels. He escapes, minus his coat, and follows the others. They discover that Amy has a Weeping Angel in the visual centres of her mind. The Doctor tells her if she opens her eyes for more than a second, the Weeping Angel will escape and she will die. She is left with the clerics as the Weeping Angels advance, Meanwhile The Doctor, River Song and Father Octavian head off to find a way to stop the Angels.
Continuity error or not?
When the Doctor comes back to Amy to tell her to trust him, he is wearing the tweed jacket which was previously left with the angels so the Doctor could escape.
I'd say continuity error if it wasn't for the fact that not only was Doctor wearing his jacket again but also his whole attitude towards Amy changed:
After the Doctor leaves with River and Octavian to find the primary flight deck, the Doctor returns for a moment to speak with Amy and his behavior and appearance is completely different (Jacket, rolled-up sleeves, different watch, etc). Speculation suggests that there is something significant about it; what precisely it means has yet to be revealed, with some fans suggesting it is the Eleventh Doctor at some point further in his future, come back to that point.
I didn't notice the jacket thing but I was puzzled by his very different behavior. One moment he was very agitated and almost rude to Amy and the next second he was really sweet and gentle to her.
Of course the Doctor is somewhat famous for his sudden mood swings and continuity errors do happen but... I still have to wonder...
06-20-2010, 01:20 PM
If it was an error it was a pretty obvious one that you would think would have been picked up in editing. You are right about the Dr and his moods though...........he seems to walk a fine line there. I shall have to watch again.