....it will lead only to more questions." (I'm paraphrasing) This is Darlton talking to us. In other words, there are NO explanations for any of this. There never were, and in the last three hours, there will not be. For people who are expecting "key mysteries" to be resolved...forget it. There was never any intention by TPTB to be able to answer the questions and tie it all in to a Grand Unified Theory. Rather, they resort to myths, pseudo-science, "you're special/he's special", magic potions (wine), EM, atomic bombs, and white light. I cannot help myself but laugh at some of the posts this morning trying to dissect "the rules"--MIB said it himself to Jacob: "Maybe one day you can make up your own rules". Darlton again telling us that "the rules" are just made up--don't put too much spin into it.

The bottom line: TPTB have spun a tale, with interesting twists, characters, and exposition of themes (good vs. evil, fate/destiny/freewill, faith/science). It doesn't NEED to make sense. Like good poetry, or music, it is open to interpretation, and will have different meaning to different people.

Many will be disappointed that there will never be "answers" to the many burning questions, but in this one line, Darlton has asked the viewers to just let them go, and enjoy the rest of the story.

i don't want answers to everything but I was kind of hoping for a less "hokey" ending. As my husband said (who isn't a Lost fan) when he watched a bit of this episode ...."Are you sure this is Lost?"

Honestly, for a minute there, it looked like the Disney channel. Like some horrible made-for-TV movie.

I disagree. That line fit in the context of the show- it's true about the nature of deeper mysteries. You'll get everything you need by the end- maybe not everything you want, but that's life, too...

LOL! My first thought last night was "Well then, where si HER mother come from?"
Then I remembered this.

I think this post should be in bold at the beginning of every thread.

How did she feed those infants? That is my burning question. Boar milk?

How did she feed those infants? That is my burning question. Boar milk?
Babies don't need to eat on the Island. See also: Aaron, Alex.

The Dharma Initiative dropped a bunch of Gerbers and Similac. Makes about as much sense as anything else on this show. Now stop asking questions...it will only lead to more questions...be grateful your alive.

Agreed. I mean we've been watching smoke monsters, people who dont age etc. Why do people expect that there will be neat perfect explanations and that at the end everything will make perfect sense? Its like asking about mythology-'well, who created the gods?' You arent going to get an answer. At some point you just have to accept that it is a fictional story and enjoy the story for what it is. As has been said, the journey is the reward.

I reluctantly agree with the OP and others, "just let it be and enjoy the ride" but the writers have spent 5 plus seasons of foreplay to set us up for the "Big O" and it's really frustrating to get so close but never get over the top, know what I mean?

The Good stuff doesn't come to you when you are watching the show. When you watch the show you are like "What the F__K was that!" The ideas come later, and it gradually starts making sense. That's what I love. It makes you think. Some people don't like to think. Some people like everthing thing explained to them. But that has never been what this show is about.

When I woke up this morning, of course, I had LOST on my brain. But a thought came into my head. MIB baited Ben and Locke the same way MIB was baited by his Mother. Being able to manipulate these two men, brought MIB to where he is now.

And the rest of the thoughts keep coming:

Mother (Nature) was the embodiment of all things good and evil. She was Jacob and Smokey wrapped up into one. In order to find her replacement, she needed to create a balance of dark and light between the twin boys so they could each handle half of her responsibilities.

Jacob is bringing people to the island because he is desperately seeking to prove that there is still good in men and to prove to himself that he wasn't evil for what he did to his brother. This alone is breaking the rules because his Mother would never approve of bringing people to the island.

Questions I still have after watching the episode

So who went back and built the Donkey Wheel?

If MIB can't leave the island now, why couldn't he leave BEFORE he was the smoke monster?

The Dharma Initiative dropped a bunch of Gerbers and Similac. Makes about as much sense as anything else on this show. Now stop asking questions...it will only lead to more questions...be grateful your alive.
hahahaa...

The bottom line: TPTB have spun a tale, with interesting twists, characters
That's really debatable... The plot goes nowhere fast, and twists like time travel, parallel worlds and flash-forwards were nothing really new.
As for the characters, they became mere puppets of the meandering plot a long time ago...

and exposition of themes (good vs. evil, fate/destiny/freewill, faith/science).It was all awfully shallow...
For example, what does a show have to say about the "faith/science" debate when it starts off with a giant monster that munches on a plane pilot? I'd say "about as much on that topic as the X Files did": it was always obvious that supernatural elements were involved. There never was a debate: the skeptics were just wasting everybody's time (on those shows, that is!).

It doesn't NEED to make sense.Well, you just made the job of writer a lot easier...


Why do people expect that there will be neat perfect explanations and that at the end everything will make perfect sense?
Because it's a perfectly reasonable expectation, even for stories that deal with supernatural elements.
But Lost has always been seriously lacking in the "inner coherence" department, and here we are... That's lousy writing, that's all.

The INFURIATING part is that there's been this conflation between answers in the context of the show and the Answers to, like, real life.

Yes, of course, when you're contemplating the history of the Universe, questions merely beget more questions. But that's only because we don't have all the information. All we can do is speculate.

This dumb little network mystery drama, though? We DO have all the information. It's in the heads of the people who make the show. All they had to do is come up with it, agree on it, and write it.

Why did they seem to let themselves get overwhelmed by their own story? All they had to do, like any other story ever written, is decide at what point in history their story diverges from known history. Then, explain it in terms familiar to the audience. That's it. Simple task.

Oh, and the reason why 'magic' is universally deemed in the storytelling craft as a cop-out? BECAUSE it isn't an answer to anything in and of itself. It is merely lazy writing. Of course it 'begets more questions.' Questions like, 'but how does magic work?,' and 'why is magic yellow and bright?', and 'are you kidding me?'

I am totally ok that the show is taking a mythological path, but if that is the case, by all means tell us in season 2-3; then spend a great deal of time explaining the mythos. My main problem is that the show has had multiple directions and has just introduced the Jacob/MIB storyline at the end of season 5. Yes we had a smoke monster, but we were told it was a security system and Ben had the ability to summon it. This just doesn't make sense with how the story is playing out now.

Why give us Darma and the freaking hatch. Why not let Locke stumble upon the magic waterfall light instead of Yemi's plane or the hatch, no there was not a plan. The writers got us intrigued with the mystery and the characters, yet had no real idea of how things were going to play out. Someone said it earlier, just come clean guys and let us know that you were fluttering around aimlessly and that explains seasons 3 and 5; now lets try to wrap it up.

That's really debatable... The plot goes nowhere fast, and twists like time travel, parallel worlds and flash-forwards were nothing really new.
As for the characters, they became mere puppets of the meandering plot a long time ago...

It was all awfully shallow...
For example, what does a show have to say about the "faith/science" debate when it starts off with a giant monster that munches on a plane pilot? I'd say "about as much on that topic as the X Files did": it was always obvious that supernatural elements were involved. There never was a debate: the skeptics were just wasting everybody's time (on those shows, that is!).

Well, you just made the job of writer a lot easier...



Because it's a perfectly reasonable expectation, even for stories that deal with supernatural elements.
But Lost has always been seriously lacking in the "inner coherence" department, and here we are... That's lousy writing, that's all.

Olivier--Look through the MANY posts by people over the last 6 years: as I read in someone else's post, viewers have researched, discussed, and speculated over philosophy, history, science, theoretical science, time-travel, religion, classic literature, mythology.....I

I don't think there is any question much of the past 6 seasons has been filler fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants writing as opposed to the "master plan". I also wish the writers could have done a better job wrapping up some of the loose ends in a more coherent, if not logical fashion. I, too, have been disappointed with how this season is quickly ending with a whimper more than a bang. However, my point is that the writers, intentionally or not, left much of the story open-ended, subject to debate and interpretation. "Thought-provoking" is the best phrase I can use to describe the series.

Agree or disagree, many people have been engrossed the past 6 seasons of this fictional television show. I'll repeat: Fictional. Television Show. Maybe we all set our standards too high. Or if I understand your reply, perhaps I've set mine too low.

From the posts this morning, I sense that many (like me) are frustrated and disappointed. I'm hopeful for "redemption" in the next three hours, but have resigned myself to the conclusion that last night's epi was as close as we're gonna get to any "answers" to the mythology. I'm hoping for the best now with regard to the resolution of the storylines of our Losties, to salvage some satisfaction for the last 6 years.

viewers have researched, discussed, and speculated over philosophy, history, science, theoretical science, time-travel, religion, classic literature, mythology.....
For nothing, and they should have realized that a while ago, in my opinion... I maintain that the show has always been awfully shallow, thematically speaking.

To tackle another of your examples... "Free will vs. fate"?
Some characters just want to to be free. Some think they are meant to accomplish something. How thought-provoking!
Also, in the context of the show, you can't change history (fate!)... or maybe you can alter it at least to some extent, even if the universe tends to "course correct" (... really? how does that even... oh, well... "free will", then, I guess?)... especially if you're Desmond, as he's an "exception" for some reason and the rules (what "rules"?) don't apply to him (???).
If you're not familiar at all with time travel stories, I guess that mess could be considered mind-blowing, but really...

As for "good vs. evil"... They never really tackled that issue. Far from it, in fact. See this recent discussion (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showthread.php?p=2342504), for example. Or, heck, the fact the show has characters turning "evil" because they contracted some mysterious contagious disease! How's that for simplistic?
Merely talking about "good guys"/"bad guys", or showing white and black stones/clothes...? That doesn't qualify as "depth" at all, sorry...

my point is that the writers, intentionally or not, left much of the story open-ended, subject to debate and interpretation. "Thought-provoking" is the best phrase I can use to describe the series."Inane mess" would be my pick.

Fictional. Television Show. Maybe we all set our standards too high. Or if I understand your reply, perhaps I've set mine too low.I think it's the latter, sorry... I've seen far better from other fictional television shows, anyway.

Olivier--I see your points, and you are entitled to your opinion. Just curious--if this is an "inane mess" in your opinion, have you been following this the past 6 years? You have 111 posts here, so obviously you have invested a good deal of time/energy to the show. Perhaps too much, I understand, in light of the disappointing recent season, but it obviously captured you at some point.

Apparently I am willing to suspend my disbelief a bit further than you...because even if disappointing, it was still enjoyable the past 6 years.

...That line fit in the context of the show- it's true about the nature of deeper mysteries. You'll get everything you need by the end- maybe not everything you want, but that's life, too...
Exactly! Quite frankly, they could have never answered things without ticking part of the viewership so I agree that we will get what we need but not what some of us would want.

what ssmaniac said!
and what the first poster said!

Oh, and the reason why 'magic' is universally deemed in the storytelling craft as a cop-out?
It's not.

if this is an "inane mess" in your opinion, have you been following this the past 6 years?
See there (http://forum.thefuselage.com/showpost.php?p=2340924&postcount=40), for example. Certainly not because I thought it was good television, anyway, that's for sure. I had my suspicions back in season 1, and they were confirmed by season 2.

Apparently I am willing to suspend my disbelief a bit further than you...It's not a matter of suspension of disbelief: I'm a big fan of science fiction and fantasy, so that's not an issue for me.

No, it's just that the writing has always been really subpar. The "mythology", the plot, the characters, the themes... The premise of the show had a lot of potential, but that's about all.
And it wouldn't have been so bad if the writers hadn't been so pretentious and adamant that they knew where they were going as well as the answers to their own mysteries.


It's not.
No, magic isn't the problem, indeed. Supposed "answers" that pretty much amount to "a wizard did it!" are.

I was thinking the same thing.

....it will lead only to more questions." (I'm paraphrasing) This is Darlton talking to us. In other words, there are NO explanations for any of this. There never were, and in the last three hours, there will not be. For people who are expecting "key mysteries" to be resolved...forget it. There was never any intention by TPTB to be able to answer the questions and tie it all in to a Grand Unified Theory. Rather, they resort to myths, pseudo-science, "you're special/he's special", magic potions (wine), EM, atomic bombs, and white light. I cannot help myself but laugh at some of the posts this morning trying to dissect "the rules"--MIB said it himself to Jacob: "Maybe one day you can make up your own rules". Darlton again telling us that "the rules" are just made up--don't put too much spin into it.

The bottom line: TPTB have spun a tale, with interesting twists, characters, and exposition of themes (good vs. evil, fate/destiny/freewill, faith/science). It doesn't NEED to make sense. Like good poetry, or music, it is open to interpretation, and will have different meaning to different people.

Many will be disappointed that there will never be "answers" to the many burning questions, but in this one line, Darlton has asked the viewers to just let them go, and enjoy the rest of the story.

Too bad they didn't just make this clear from the start and then I wouldn't have wasted six years of following the series.

You know, this philosophy wouldn't bother me if it weren't for how the writers, well, wrote.

Darlton have talked about how they don't think all mysteries are that big of a deal and don't need answering. For example, Libby. She was shown in the mental hospital with Hurley, in case you don't remember. Now, if Darlton REALLY didn't think this was a big deal, they would have just had her walk by or something like that. But no, she was the cliffhanger of the episode, even with the "big twist" music. But then they're like "Nope, never gonna be answered. Who cares?" And they even had the audacity to act as if the fans were being unreasonable wanting to know.

Indeed. The whole premise upon which Lost has achieved its greatness so far has rested upon the idea that there's this fantastically brilliant over-arching mystery to which the writers knew all the answers from the start.

The challenge to the viewers was to figure out what all that mysterious stuff meant. Then at the end, it'd all pay off, we'd go 'Wow!' and everything would be great.


Unless they can pull off a blinder in the last three TV hours, this has not been the case. The test will be if anyone here ever goes back and re-watches it all from the start, knowing the end. If the writers deliver as promised, this will be a must-do. If things end up like they are looking they will end up, few will see the earlier episodes as worth re-watching.

Okay, I feel like putting my seven cents into this discussion....

I enjoy the show, it's fun and wacky and stuff. It's all in the can now so not much one can do to change whatever's coming up. I understand every single complaint (that's not just a brainless rant). It's been a fun way to spend an hour a week, though. :)

How did she feed those infants? That is my burning question. Boar milk?

I thought about that one, too. It would have made more sense if she had just lost a baby but still had breast milk. Why did she want the twins so much that she had to kill their biological mother? It was interesting that she had many of the same ideas about people coming to the island...manipulative...corrupt... as MIB. Did she need a replacement so she could die? She thanked MIB for stabbing and killing her. Why?

I still haven't thought some of this out but would like to hear others opinions. :confused:
100%
I agree with most of what everyone has said in this thread. I think it was the promises that the writers made and have not fulfilled that upsets most fans. I started to get a clue when D & C said that all the mysteries would not be answered because that would take the magic away. I even wondered if they would have answered the "Adam & Eve" mystery if it weren't for the fans demanding answers.

I don't think Lost was the type of science fiction show as say Star Wars, so we needed more answers. We still don't know what the island is... wormhole?...black hole? I thought the writers stated that the mysteries of the island would be explained by science or pseudo-science?

That being said, I still enjoyed this series immensely.

Magic isn't important in a lot of storytelling? Tell that to practically every teller of folklore, or the great writers of the Edwardian era (JM Barrie, PL Travers, Kenneth Grahame), or later writers like CS Lewis, JRR Tolkien, Charles Williams, GK Chesterton, David Lindsey. Not to mention all the magical-realist writers like Isabel Allende. Even Stephen King's The Stand has a mystery at its heart.

Not everything has to be science-fiction.

"Mother" to me is a mystery, the mystery at the core of The Island. In a sense, she's an embodiment of it. And "her ways are not our ways." She doesn't owe us an explanation, and neither do the writers.

Stefanie's right.

Magic isn't important in a lot of storytelling? Tell that to practically every teller of folklore, or the great writers of the Edwardian era (JM Barrie, PL Travers, Kenneth Grahame), or later writers like CS Lewis, JRR Tolkien, Charles Williams, GK Chesterton, David Lindsey. Not to mention all the magical-realist writers like Isabel Allende. Even Stephen King's The Stand has a mystery at its heart.

Not everything has to be science-fiction.

"Mother" to me is a mystery, the mystery at the core of The Island. In a sense, she's an embodiment of it. And "her ways are not our ways." She doesn't owe us an explanation, and neither do the writers.

Usually, when magic is a part of a story, it has some sort of ruleset governing its properties. Oh, and those rules are explained. And adhered to.

Aaron and Alex had food as long as Claire and Rousseau had food. Nature has a way of providing nourishment to infants. There are books about it in the library in case you missed that day in health class.
Oh, for crying out loud. Claire was gone and Aaron was on a boat for a week. Alex was kidnapped as an infant by a tribe that according to our understanding would not have mothers who lived to the point of lactating.

Indeed. The whole premise upon which Lost has achieved its greatness so far has rested upon the idea that there's this fantastically brilliant over-arching mystery to which the writers knew all the answers from the start.

This is absolutely true! If you say otherwise you might want to ask yourself why you are not questioning someone that tells you that you're thoughts are not important and that it's ok to lie to you. Because they are saying that and they did lie to you I just wanted them to fill in the plotholes, to have a cohesive story that I can revisit, but they aren't making that happen in the slightest.

To top it off in their interviews they are condescending to those that were the most engaged by the show in earlier seasons. "What makes you think you can question us!" is what they say so openly. It's actually disgusting. I think more of myself than to accept things blindly. I liked this show because I am that type of person that likes to think and reason and now they ask me to do the opposite and I can't do it.

....it will lead only to more questions." (I'm paraphrasing) This is Darlton talking to us. In other words, there are NO explanations for any of this. There never were, and in the last three hours, there will not be. For people who are expecting "key mysteries" to be resolved...forget it. There was never any intention by TPTB to be able to answer the questions and tie it all in to a Grand Unified Theory. Rather, they resort to myths, pseudo-science, "you're special/he's special", magic potions (wine), EM, atomic bombs, and white light. I cannot help myself but laugh at some of the posts this morning trying to dissect "the rules"--MIB said it himself to Jacob: "Maybe one day you can make up your own rules". Darlton again telling us that "the rules" are just made up--don't put too much spin into it.

The bottom line: TPTB have spun a tale, with interesting twists, characters, and exposition of themes (good vs. evil, fate/destiny/freewill, faith/science). It doesn't NEED to make sense. Like good poetry, or music, it is open to interpretation, and will have different meaning to different people.

Many will be disappointed that there will never be "answers" to the many burning questions, but in this one line, Darlton has asked the viewers to just let them go, and enjoy the rest of the story.

Well said. I agree! :)
I'm already dreading all the haters who will undoubtedly be ***mod edit*** after the show ends, complaining that it didn't meet their expectations. I already know it's meeting mine. :biggrin:

I have spent a good portion of today reading and trying to figure out what common theme is involved with so many disgruntled fans of the show after last night.

I have found a COMMON THREAD among most of the posts that truely hate where LOST is going:

Damon and Carlton's "podcasts" and "interviews" about the show. The ones most adament against LOST are the ones who hung on every word spit out by the writers.
I think this has ruined the show for alot of people.

Im' from the camp that never heard them ever say it wasnt Pergatory, or Aliens, or Time Travel. I can tell you that without those limitations, I was able to roll with the story, no matter where it went, because my expectations were never set to any certain channels. I enjoy LOST now, and I enjoyed it then.

I'll admit, for me the Season 2 Finale was the best LOST had to offer, and it has slowly lost steam ever since (the nature of things), but I still love the show...

Someone said it best on this thread, for me its the fact that LOST ALWAYS leaves me dazed and confused, but the following days my mind has so much fun parcing the story together after its aired, and arrive at so many possibilites. That's MY idea of entertainment, although I understand it isnt EVERYONE'S.


I'm okay with someone hating the show now, as long as they're okay with me LOVING it.

Wow the apologists are so delusional. Why do we want a story that makes sense? Ok repeat that question again to yourself. Maybe it's because we want to go back and watch the show and understand it. Specifically to understand these mysterious scenes and motivations of some of the characters. We want the story of Lost to be more than a collection of mysterious scenes that went no where and meant nothing. We want a complete story. Despite the jedi mind trick that the writers are trying to pull that is not too much to ask. It's just nonsense now and they are trying to make us swallow it by beating us over the head with a theme.

I have yet to see a good argument from someone that likes this season other than "it's just a show who cares". I get a lot of "the answers aren't important" or" you have to make it up in your own head", but I'm not buying that.
100%
Well said. I agree! :)
I'm already dreading all the haters who will undoubtedly be ***mod edit*** after the show ends, complaining that it didn't meet their expectations. I already know it's meeting mine. :biggrin:

How is it meeting your expectations? Because some people died, something blew up and something mysterious happened?

To top it off in their interviews they are condescending to those that were the most engaged by the show in earlier seasons. "What makes you think you can question us!" is what they say so openly. It's actually disgusting. I think more of myself than to accept things blindly. I liked this show because I am that type of person that likes to think and reason and now they ask me to do the opposite and I can't do it.

And, as I recall, in a later post, Nathaniel has challenged Lost defenders to propose a credible argument as to why the currently unpleased shouldn't be so negative about the Season 6 developments.

I'll take a shot at taking up the defense, from the standpoint of one who has often been at odds with Lost directionality:

1. Good storytelling and character development got us absorbed in Lost and its many characters, all seemingly very human and humanly vulnerable, and sharing the experience of being trapped indefinitely on a beautiful but increasingly menacing Island.

2. Human and character foibles and flawed traits increasingly played out against mounting complexity of Island habitation, threats, physical dynamics and cultural revelations suggesting menace, promise, division, and very ancient origins.

3. The leitmotif throughout has been binary: particularly +/-, white/black; preservation/exploitation; nourishment/death;

4. The Island's unique qualities have in some distant past managed always attracted exploration, investigation and research;

5. Forces for preservation against exploitation are naturals in this setting;

6. TPTB nearly fell on their faces mid-way, going to the prop room for donkey wheels, bunny rabbits, time warps and flashbacks ....................... totallt derailed from the foundation structure of the piece;

Recognizing that neither Schroedinger nor Einstein was going to pop out of a birthday cake any time soon, TPTB got it that they had nearly de-railed the project; and they further came to terms with human nature and the way it comes to terms with overarching realities beyond the common human experience. They returned to myth; and, in doing so, created both a workable new mythology for our times and a credible resolution to the Lost they gave us almost six years ago.

Thank you, nanwynnfan!! That said just about everything I was thinking!

Here is the ultimate problem with Lost season 6. Theme is not plot. The theme of the decisions that people make in their lives and the people that affect your life has been more than fully explored through the first 5 seasons of the show. We got it. No one was unclear on this. There is no need to take up half the last season that should be filled with answers that tie together the hundreds of mysteries that have come up during the show and instead turning the theme into the plot and letting the previous plot turn into garbage. Stop showing me Ben Linus blackmailing a principal at a school by threatening to reveal his affair with the school nurse or Kate being on the run from the law AGAIN. This is better left to after school specials,

Then let’s talk about the so called “rules”. These rules seem to change to fit any contrived plot that they want to do this week. First they say the smoke monster cannot cross the ash and then he attacks the Others temple even though it is surrounded by ash. Suddenly it's not the ash anymore and it has to do with the guy in charge of it. Do they explain this? No. But the writers can feed us nonsense because it’s really deep right?

The so called "rules of the island" continue to give us some convoluted scenario where the smoke monster who wants the survivors dead cannot kill them directly. Nor can they kill themselves. So he has to trick them into killing each other. He does this by taking a regular wrist watch, some C-4 and turning it into a timebomb. He then sticks it in Jacks bag when he boards the submarine. They find the bomb and we are to believe that Sawyer trying to defuse it circumvents these rules and allows the candidates who are protected by the rules to die. What else can the smoke monster (who even though he can turn into smoke has resorted to shooting guns and breaking necks) do to trick them to kill each other? One imagines some tricks that even the worst sequel to Saw wouldn't attempt.

Then let’s talk about the so called answers they’ve given us. Apparently the smoke monster who cannot cross water or leave the island was Christian Shephard the whole time, yet he appeared to Michael on the freighter in season 4 which was in the water off the island and appeared to Jack when he was off the island. Do the writers even watch the show?

But hey it's the final season so lets just write in some timeline that didn’t happen in the story we’d spent 100+ hours telling to distract from all the bullshit that doesn’t make any sense. The fans will think it’s deep like some kind of modern art garbage and not realize that they’ve been duped. It sounds deep so it must be!

The only conclusion I can draw is that the writers were unable to tie their own show together and have been lying the whole time that they were doing everything for a purpose. They said it themselves in their interview in Wired magazine that the audience are like 3 year olds that when they answer a question we just keep asking why to every answer they give and then they can only distract us with Chuck E Cheese. That was their words. I think you’d find that children that ask questions are often more intelligent than those that don’t. They want to know because they are interested, they want to know because they are fascinated. The parent that doesn’t know the answers as to why the sky is blue is the one that chooses to distract the child instead. Why don’t they just admit that they don’t know the answer instead of insulting us? It's not deep just because they rehash the story that was told already in the flashbacks of season 1. Theme is not plot and plot holes are not something that gives you artistic integrity.

Here is the ultimate problem with Lost season 6. Theme is not plot. The theme of the decisions that people make in their lives and the people that affect your life has been more than fully explored through the first 5 seasons of the show. We got it. No one was unclear on this.

If we are honestly debating the merits of Lost as a fictional drama concocted basically for entertainment value, then a statement like "theme is not plot" can be deconstructed into a semantic ploy to identify the obvious. Themes are overarching dynamics that may or may not be woven into the overall unfolding of the plot.

Your reference to in-depth character studies into those affecting the lives of others actually makes my point for me. We were seduced by the early interactions of the survivors among themselves, others, Island dynamics, and biospher anomalies. Later, but early in the series, we were further invested through flashbacks that did not entail alternative time loops into alternate life experiences or parallel universes.

Then they pulled out the props and tossed all that into a blender; and, as long as TPTB held the expanded, convoluted, warped and blitzed realities you yourself argued so staunchly for, canned those Realities and their attendant mythological implications [for a saga], favoring instead a disastrous omelet of time/space collisions the aftermath of which were added questions that I would argue TPTB could not resolve satisfactorily given the sudden urgency of time restraints relative to the meandering script roads taken.

I cannot argue for all of Season 6; but Across the Sea has successfully yanked TPTB's fat out of the fire. They have returned to thir creative roots and salvaged that which came very close to tawdry and gimmicky destruction.

Then let’s talk about the so called “rules”. These rules seem to change to fit any contrived plot that they want to do this week. First they say the smoke monster cannot cross the ash and then he attacks the Others temple even though it is surrounded by ash. Suddenly it's not the ash anymore and it has to do with the guy in charge of it. Do they explain this? No. But the writers can feed us nonsense because it’s really deep right?

Here, and I sincerely hope Moderators do not interpret this as me delving into arguments over religiosity [since I propose it as quite the opposite], is a valid point raised to challenge a mature and intelligent audience:

1. Human society at large is governed by RULES. We separate church from state to emphasize the duality of our human nature[s]. Yet we are haunted by the very burden of our own physicality, seen all too often as an occasion of temptation, a vehicle of sin, a palette of bad habits and extravagances, a mortal conveyance of limited shelf life.

2. Some formalized spiritual RULES are packaged like instructions for assembling a new swivel chair, right down to the last nut, bolt and washer. They have names and are thoroughly codified. However, many of these constructs have histories; and often, when we delve into the histories, we find that the current code may be at some odds with the intended rules at the inception. Thus, we have schisms, sets, subsects; and somehow, when these interact with daily social interractions, they become politicized - blurring the idealized and tidy separations we have made between church and state.

How much more room for eccentricity in a fictional, mythological drama that includes a smattering of preternatural Entities in the recipe?

The so called "rules of the island" continue to give us some convoluted scenario where the smoke monster who wants the survivors dead cannot kill them directly. Nor can they kill themselves. So he has to trick them into killing each other. He does this by taking a regular wrist watch, some C-4 and turning it into a timebomb. He then sticks it in Jacks bag when he boards the submarine. They find the bomb and we are to believe that Sawyer trying to defuse it circumvents these rules and allows the candidates who are protected by the rules to die. What else can the smoke monster (who even though he can turn into smoke has resorted to shooting guns and breaking necks) do to trick them to kill each other? One imagines some tricks that even the worst sequel to Saw wouldn't attempt.

Hewing to your line of argument gives evidence to a swallowing of [I]canon in a mythological work of fiction presented by a production team that has revealed itself to be very protective of its franchise, the ingredients in its recipe, the demanding of faith when reasonable expectations of suspension of disbelief have been violated.

It is better perhaps to be a respectful cynic and agnostic over the last six seasons. I have NEVER viewd one moment of a PTB-generated podcast, insider sharing production or fireside chat. I left those behind, as a child, with FDR.

Then let’s talk about the so called answers they’ve given us. Apparently the smoke monster who cannot cross water or leave the island was Christian Shephard the whole time, yet he appeared to Michael on the freighter in season 4 which was in the water off the island and appeared to Jack when he was off the island. Do the writers even watch the show?

Yes, there is a ton of dialogue to be explored, analyzed, diagrammed and dissected; but I have refused to re-visit endless episodes, opting instead to grasp overarching commonalities and the bigger picture. I have re-watched perhaps 5 or 6 episodes of the entire series, including the Season 5 finale [part 1] and Ab Aeterno this season. I fully expect to re-watch Across the Sea before the new 5-18-10 episode; but that's about it.

But hey it's the final season so lets just write in some timeline that didn’t happen in the story we’d spent 100+ hours telling to distract from all the bullcrap that doesn’t make any sense. The fans will think it’s deep like some kind of modern art garbage and not realize that they’ve been duped. It sounds deep so it must be!

I would counter this by proposing TPTB got a wake up call that the ONLY time line that would afford them a satisfactory resolution to 6 years of mythology was ............. TA DAH! ~ Mythology: The Island's linear time line, as easily traceable as a Shell road map and as readable as a Tapestry.

It seems deep because they tossed out the props and returned to Island mythology, social vs. Darwinian evolution, human nature dealing with preternatural forces and dynamics, and a time line overarching the entirety of the tale, dating back perhaps to pre-history.

The only conclusion I can draw is that the writers were unable to tie their own show together and have been lying the whole time that they were doing everything for a purpose. They said it themselves in their interview in Wired magazine that the audience are like 3 year olds that when they answer a question we just keep asking why to every answer they give and then they can only distract us with Chuck E Cheese. That was their words. I think you’d find that children that ask questions are often more intelligent than those that don’t. They want to know because they are interested, they want to know because they are fascinated. The parent that doesn’t know the answers as to why the sky is blue is the one that chooses to distract the child instead. Why don’t they just admit that they don’t know the answer instead of insulting us? It's not deep just because they rehash the story that was told already in the flashbacks of season 1. Theme is not plot and plot holes are not something that gives you artistic integrity.

I'm thinking there was some panic and significant script-doctoring right around the time we met Dogen:

-we had too many characters left over and we're introducing new ones;

-we have to cut to the chase, set up Losties into camps, and get back somehow to that temple and the Island mysteries;

-we have to resurrect the Jacob and MiB duo [no real story without that being resolved] and we have to prune the tree some lest the list of Candidates gets like the Manhattan telephone directory;

-Lost is about an Island; and discerning viewers will demand a back story for her;

They woke up; they touched all the bases; and they got back on track. Anyone still concerned about Rule 157 B. 4 vi (3) I fear will be left on his/her own to decipher that, having missed the forest for the trees.

So because it resembles some recycled mythology story and they keep telling us it's all about characters we should forgive plot contrivances and past storylines? Why would a seemingly intelligent person give them a pass because it's retreading some cliche themes and calling it the big picture?

Yawn.

I guess you said it best when you said you don't rewatch anything or invest in any of it. I guess you are the lucky one. It feels wrong when I watch it. I feel embarassed that I was such a huge fan of this show.

I'm already dreading all the haters who will undoubtedly be ***mod edit*** after the show ends, complaining that it didn't meet their expectations. I already know it's meeting mine.

***mod edit***

If its meeting your expectations, why would you care one way or another whether "haters" will complain? "Dread" implies you'll be waking up in a cold sweat in the middle of the night thinking about all those haters and wondering why they hate so much.

-steve

Why would a seemingly intelligent person give them a pass because it's retreading some cliche themes and calling it the big picture?

Yawn.

I agree that the writers got LOST along the way and spent too much time introducing new characters/plotlines as filler (Dogen, Ilana, etc.) rather than trying to wrap things up in a coherent fashion this season. The reason that I am giving them a pass is that I believe that TPTB could not come up with any way to do that in a way that did not let the cat out of the bag too early. In other words, as someone here put it eloquently, they are protective of the franchise. They could not figure out a way to answer many of our "questions" without giving away the big reveal ending. They want to keep the big reveal for the finale. If they had revealed the bigger burning questions early this season ("Oh, the island is _______________!") the rest of the season would have been anticlimactic denoument, to fill in the gaps and holes. They preferred artistically/strategically to save the Big Bang for the end, accepting the risk that it would be too late and would not leave time for them to tie it together...

A fairy tail, where the nuts and bolt explanation of how strange things happen is not really revealed, is all good and fine as long as a story is presented from the beginning as such. But Lost has never been presented a fairy tail, rather it is supposedly an unfolding mystery. But then we get this episode with a magical light, a woman who has been on this island, but with no how or why of her being there, and her guarding this light. How she knows she needs to guard this light, and her knowledge of its powers, is never explained. and so neither is the light.

This wouldn't be so bothersome if we knew the answers would be forthcoming next week or the week after that, or the week...Oops, no more weeks! So, yes, it is frustrating at the end of this episode we are left with these questions we have reason to believe will be left unexplained. Meanwhile we get something like the Adam and Eve bones diagramed for us at a Dummies 101 level, and this mystery turns out to be apparently trivial in the grand scheme of things (qualifying that in case a crazy idea pops in one of the Lostie's heads to use the bones to defeat Smokey -- don't ask! ;))

A fairy tail, where the nuts and bolt explanation of how strange things happen is not really revealed, is all good and fine as long as a story is presented from the beginning as such.

A fairy tale, as opposed to dramatic or straight-line, linear story-telling, predictably holds a moral or lesson to be learned. These are cautionary tales, with "the bogey-man will get you if you don't watch out" somewhere implied. It is metaphor, allegory or parable wrapped into a fiction.

Lost is no less fictional; but its tale is told on a grander scale. It is a play that presents a new mythology for our times; and because it is more complex than a fairy tale, it has more nuances and lessons.

The common denominators are fiction, myth, metaphor and allegory. The departure is in the scale and scope and the complexities of the characters within that complexity.

Where has Lost been anywhere presented as other than that which it is?

But Lost has never been presented a fairy tail, rather it is supposedly an unfolding mystery. But then we get this episode with a magical light, a woman who has been on this island, but with no how or why of her being there, and her guarding this light. How she knows she needs to guard this light, and her knowledge of its powers, is never explained. and so neither is the light.

I would draw the analogy that fairy tale is to skirmish as Lost is to war. Once upon a time ..... is not very definitive; and it holds itself up to little close scrutiny. I believe the light was explained rather fully by [f]Mom, at least from her perspective.

This wouldn't be so bothersome if we knew the answers would be forthcoming next week or the week after that, or the week...Oops, no more weeks! So, yes, it is frustrating at the end of this episode we are left with these questions we have reason to believe will be left unexplained.

The unanswered questions to which you refer are unspecified; so how is one to evaluate how much will remain unresolved in the last several hours?

Meanwhile we get something like the Adam and Eve bones diagramed for us at a Dummies 101 level, and this mystery turns out to be apparently trivial in the grand scheme of things (qualifying that in case a crazy idea pops in one of the Lostie's heads to use the bones to defeat Smokey -- don't ask! ;))

I didn't think the bones were explained at all. In fact, some posters were pretty upset that Jack could be so off in guesstimating they might have been there for 50 years or more. Arguments that Jack was a spinal surgeon and not an archaeologist did not satisfy some who hewed to the line that a spinal surgeon knows bones.

I turned to reference books and found that bones and fabric of > 2,000 years of aging experience very diverse rotting and preservation shelf-lives. The entire field, taphonomy, is there for reference. There appears to have been quite a modern evolution in the science over the last 30 years, with old rules being turned upside-down by new discoveries.

As far as I can see it, Across the Sea violated no code of communication between creators and viewers. The same cannot be said over the entire run of Lost, or even portions of season 6.

Without an end date for the show, the writers had no option but to create episodes that were never intended to be major plot issues and fill those episodes with shiny objects that we took to like magpies. WE made those shiny things into something they were not. WE have tried to fashion LOST after our own wants and desires, and the writers played along since they didn't know how long ABC was going to try to keep the cash cow alive.

IMHO, if you want to be angry at LOST's plot, direct your anger towards the execs at the network who wanted to "use the light in the cave" of this show to fatten their wallets by not giving the show a limited run and creating an end date much sooner so that all sorts of shiny things didn't dominate people's attention.

Without an end date for the show, the writers had no option but to create episodes that were never intended to be major plot issues and fill those episodes with shiny objects that we took to like magpies. WE made those shiny things into something they were not. WE have tried to fashion LOST after our own wants and desires, and the writers played along since they didn't know how long ABC was going to try to keep the cash cow alive.

IMHO, if you want to be angry at LOST's plot, direct your anger towards the execs at the network who wanted to "use the light in the cave" of this show to fatten their wallets by not giving the show a limited run and creating an end date much sooner so that all sorts of shiny things didn't dominate people's attention.
That's a good point. I think things that came up in season three in particular are likely to get dismissed. Not knowing how far they'd have to stretch the central story, padding was required. Much of the stuff that got dropped is probably stuff they would never have put out if the show had had an end date from the beginning.

A fairy tale, as opposed to dramatic or straight-line, linear story-telling, predictably holds ......

nanwynnfan: You sound like you know what you are talking about so I won't even question it. And I probably should have used the word, "fantasy," as opposed to "fairy tail", in the first place. When I use the word, "fantasy," I think of movies like "Field of Dreams," "Edward Scissorhands," and "The Wizard of Oz," where strange phenomena concerning time, place or existence is occurring, but how that is exactly happening is hardly explained, if at all, nor is the story at all concerned with nuts and bolts explantions. Many of my favorite movies are fantasy, (the aforementioned films, plus "It's a Wonderful Life," Scrooged," etc)

I'm far from an expert on these things (obvious!) but I thought of Lost more along the vein of adventure with a sci-fi leaning. I don't need every mystery answered but the light, Jacob and MIB being around so many years, and things like that are core mysteries for which a viewer would justifiably expect answers. It is as if the show suddenly took a hard turn into fantasy.

That's like changing the rules (of the story) and mighty late in the game... Hmmm, could MIB's name be Darlton? ;)

(If we do get coherent answers, with what little time is left in the show, I will happily retract my criticism.)

Why Mother invites no questions.

Just me thinking out loud here; but Mother's resistance to questions is right in line with Jacob's regime on the Island.

From Across the Sea, I believe we can draw the following conclusions:

-Dating back to a time predating Claudia's washing ashore and being murdered after giving birth to twin boys, the Island's human population has been infertile; and select individuals have been drawn to the Island.

-Select individuals may land on the Island in larger groups of people, most of whom are not selected; so the Island must then either dispose of the leftovers or accommodate them in some fashion.

-It strikes me that Others are comprised of the non-select Island survivors, who must then be collectivized into a xenophobic social mass, as homogenous as possible in cult, creed, attitude and value system. They must be indoctrinated into a hive mentality, if possible.

-Of the two boys birthed by Claudia and raised by [f]Mom, Jacob is perfectly suited to both agendas: [f]Mom's loathing and distrust of humanity, having gone as far to deny her sons any awareness of an outside world apart from the Island experience; and the ingrained mind-set of the Others themselves, whom we can reasonably assume distrusts people not known to their group.

-Boy-in-Black, on the contrary, is bright, eager, inquisitive, curious and possessed of a restless independent streak. He departs [f]Mom's protective paranoia and ventures forth to experience other humanity. That he finds them selfish and self-centered, suspicious, querulous and mean-spirited comes not from what he has been taught but from his own painful observation.

Conclusion: In many ways, MiB is devastated by what he has observed in 30 years among the Others. He had hoped for better. However, he is deprived of knowledge of forces acting upon those Others to be exactly as they are, anti-social misfits.

MiB is caught between an rock and a hard place. He is a wry cynic not because it is his nature, but because it goes against his nature. MiB has yet to meet a human stimulus up to his own innate willingness to learn, grow, progress, advance and prosper.

I believe the resolution will at least reveal these truths and that the scenes of revelation will somehow be bathed in white light, much as Claudia was when she appeared to boy-in-black.

It is MiB's statement about his "people" that makes me wonder why he wants to leave the island. He can't stand his people, yet he wants to go "home." This makes no sense to me - so I attribute it to MiB possibly being a bit mad himself. He totally agrees with Mother about mankind, yet he longs to immerse himself in mankind.

1. Good storytelling and character development got us absorbed in Lost and its many characters, all seemingly very human and humanly vulnerable, and sharing the experience of being trapped indefinitely on a beautiful but increasingly menacing Island.

This true of the first two seasons and possibly even Season 3.

But since Season 4 the characters have been morons. All they do is lie to each other or answer questions with idiotic phrases like "That doesn't matter now". If they meet someone who could answer their questions or explain what needs to be done they say nothing. The characters of this show have become unbelievable frustrating to watch.

And Season 6 has taken it to new levels. Sayid, one of the most proactive Losties, spent most of his time impersonating a zombie and Sun went stupidly mute for a few episodes. Considering how pointless these plot devices turned out to be it seems that the real reason was because the writers had no dialogue left for their characters.

Yes, the characters were good at the start but for at least three years they've grown ever more moronic.

I didn't like the movie Tropic Thunder very much but this quote is applicable here: " Everybody knows you never go full retard".

Unfortunately that's exactly what the Losties have done.

Well said. I agree! :)
I'm already dreading all the haters who will undoubtedly be ***mod edit*** after the show ends, complaining that it didn't meet their expectations. I already know it's meeting mine. :biggrin:

Kudos to both of you .From the moment Jack opened his eyes in the jungle, I was hooked. Nothing was canned or spoon fed to us, we were allowed to make up our own answers , to think, nay, to Dig and Dig at possibilities based on our own beliefs, our own wishes on what should be, could be , might be,....if onlies. The acting has been superb, the charactors like no others, with a few exceptions, N and P..*cough*, I for one have truly enjoyed my time on this Island, even the dissapointments! Locke....My fav. guy from day one, for example. Lordy, how TPTB abused that man,... but would I have been so intrigued otherwise? Maybe not. Artz..hated the guy... AnaLucia...didn't like her at first till i saw her flashback...Just sayin' TPTB have played us like Maestro's(spelling?) , and I for one have vastly enjoyed the genious Masterpiece that is Lost. :thumbup: How many of us would be online so much about a TV show, for crying out loud?

It is MiB's statement about his "people" that makes me wonder why he wants to leave the island. He can't stand his people, yet he wants to go "home." This makes no sense to me - so I attribute it to MiB possibly being a bit mad himself. He totally agrees with Mother about mankind, yet he longs to immerse himself in mankind.

In all fairness to Boy-in-Black and MiB, they [he], of the two babies given birth by Claudia, is the one who is outgoing, eager, wide-eyed with curiosity, and willing to learn, given any positive stimulus at all.

He is the one who is restless with [f]Mom's paranoia and myopic view of the world. She lies that there is no world beyond the Island. He leaves her influence and lives among Others for 30 years and is cynical about their combativeness, suspicion, animosity, and ill will.

However, let's remember that this appears to be a place of repeating cycles, with the Others being a repressed population that must be kept in fear, doubt and total dependence upon a brainwashing leader who must make a veritable hive of his/her followers.

There are so many threads erupting here on every topic, just today I posted somewhere that I believe Others are the non-"special"survivors of wrecks lured to the Island to populate it [sterility]. Another possibility is that the Island cannot always specifically land hand-picked special targets, sometimes settling for groups that include a "special" here and there.

What options might there have always been? Kill them? Enroll them as Others?

If so, no wonder MiB is cynical, exposed for 30 years to a repressed population. Then he and they are mutual victims of the force that contains/controls them.

Good posts, nwf! I think that makes me the saddest with Mother and Brother's assessment of Man is while it's true what they say - they come, they destroy, they're greedy, etc - it seems they both miss the finer qualities in their observations about the people that have been brought to the Island.
I really like the idea that sometimes people have to be brought to the Island as part of a group rather than just individually brought to the Island.

nannwynn, you speak of repeating cycles...and how MIB goes to live with "Others"....
is this foreshadowing Claire being told she must not let her baby be raised by "others"?
100%
well, gods, (esp. when plural) are generally powerful symbols of some force, not actual persons requiring birth certificates....

nannwynn, you speak of repeating cycles...and how MIB goes to live with "Others"....
is this foreshadowing Claire being told she must not let her baby be raised by "others"?
100%
well, gods, (esp. when plural) are generally powerful symbols of some force, not actual persons requiring birth certificates....

LL: Lost is rife with cycles; and while the curtain over the Island history has drawn back very slowly, it reveals an overarching cycle of sterility, importation, intake, evaluation;[scanning, sorting & judging] segregation; Others] exploitation, and replacement.

I'm hoping someone with total recall of exact quotes can correct me; but I believe the warning to Claire was, "You must not allow him to be raised by another." There is a suggested play on words here with the message being, literally, never let him stay on the Island to be raised by an Other. In the original plot line, this is moot: Aaron is off Island and being raised by another human being, a proxy Mom, but not by an Other. All that means to be is that the worst case has been avoided: Aaron is out of the Island loop .

The dipsey-doodle knuckleball floating around [I]now is the ALT, with a very pregnant Claire quite possibly carrying twins, a situation suggested by the entire Across the Sea episode. This would conform with the overarching cycle implied by [f]Mom; and it carries a pretty ghastly corollary as well;

IF Claire is a reiteration of Claudia in the ALT, who on the Island will fill the role of [f]Mom, who will murder Claire and raise her twin sons as her own?

Who is left? With Kate we have a no-brainer candidate; but the iteration is very untidy. In the [f]Mom iteration, Claudia was an import who did not arrive in the same shipment as [f]Mom. [f]Mom was there when Claudia arrived, apparently for some time.

Is there an Other, someone who was on Island before Claire arrived, a rogue, a woman on her own with no immediately apparent children of her own?

My mind turns to Rousseau. Rousseau appeared to us as a lone commando, laying traps to isolate herself from the hated Others. She had murdered her crew because the had contacted the sickness. Her Motherhood was related to us only after she was well established as a loner.

That might be quite a coup. Resurrecting Rousseau - sent secretly into the light to make a new Smokey.

As to gods, I doubt we are dealing with gods here. The forces are more like Templates, Plato's essences from cave walls, roles to be filled and refilled until someone[thing] breaks the cycle.